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graham butt
02-04-2005, 11:12 AM
Hey everyone.

My brother and I were just discussing how various martial arts are falling away on the artistic side and are focusing more on the sporting side... Eg. Judo, Tae Kwon Do, Karate... We're not knocking the styles because most times they do have their artistic side.

When we studied Judo we were only taught competition techniques only, We were not taught chokes and strangle holds. There was also little attention paid to Ettiquette. Like we say we are not putting these styles down as they ALL obviously have their advantages and are very effective styles.

It does however appear to us that some schools of Martial arts are there for the sport.
I hope you understand what we are talking about, We're mainly wondering what your opinions are on this topic? Has anyone else thought about this?

Take_Care.
:ai: :ki: :do:

tedehara
02-04-2005, 11:46 AM
Hey everyone.
My brother and I were just discussing how various martial arts are falling away on the artistic side and are focusing more on the sporting side... Eg. Judo, Tae Kwon Do, Karate... We're not knocking the styles because most times they do have their artistic side.

When we studied Judo we were only taught competition techniques only, We were not taught chokes and strangle holds. There was also little attention paid to Ettiquette. Like we say we are not putting these styles down as they ALL obviously have their advantages and are very effective styles.

It does however appear to us that some schools of Martial arts are there for the sport.
I hope you understand what we are talking about, We're mainly wondering what your opinions are on this topic? Has anyone else thought about this?

Take_Care.
:ai: :ki: :do:My sensei took judo and was reading The Canon of Judo by Mifune. He saw a sacrifice throw that seemed interesting. At his next class, he asked his teacher if he could show that throw. His teacher said, "No". When he asked him why not, the teacher replied,"You can't win a tournament with it."

This focus on competition is not embraced by all. You might want to read Zen Judo : A Way of Life by Brian N. Bagot. I'm sure if you look at any martial art, there are people who are patiently making it part of their lives, rather than an excuse for competitive sports.

Anyway, that is my hope.
:)

jonreading
02-04-2005, 12:02 PM
This is way complicated for a post, but here goes...

History tells use that combative martial arts became a competetive sport in Japan when the need for combat diminished; to keep their fighting skills, warriors fought competatively. Eventually, warriors realized spritual benefits to organized fighting systems, and continued training after reaching their physical peak for health and spiritual development. In fact, many historians believe that a similar theory can exist for every fighting system.

Flash forward. We live in a society that rejects combat. Combat and killing are publically frowned upon by almost every nation on the planet. We don't like the thought of killing, and we certainly don't like to think of martial arts as training to kill someone. But it was/is just that. Many martial arts transformed into competetive sport to exist in today's society. Karate is a great example of a martial art that adopted competition and has trememdous following.

So my long answer is yes, I also believe that martial arts are embracing competetive sport. The practice of combat techniques is being ignored and will eventually be lost. I have no doubt that these martial practices will exist in military training, but eventually they will be lost for public consumption.

mj
02-04-2005, 12:32 PM
...When we studied Judo we were only taught competition techniques only, We were not taught chokes and strangle holds....
Because you were juniors, obviously. :)

My sensei took judo and was reading The Canon of Judo by Mifune. He saw a sacrifice throw that seemed interesting. At his next class, he asked his teacher if he could show that throw. His teacher said, "No". When he asked him why not, the teacher replied,"You can't win a tournament with it."...
I would guess that the throw was Sumi-Otoshi. It doesn't work against people with any level of skill/balance. When a Judo instructor says 'you cannot win with it' he merely means that it does not work against a competent opponent, like the Men from UNCLEs Karate chops, or Captain Kirks tomoe-nage. Did your Sensei not tell you about all the throws that his Judo instructor did show him that were effective? And that he knew they were effective because they had been used successfully against totally resisting, clever, experienced opponents?

What price those techniques? Tempered by stress and found reliable.

I have to ask...if we do not test ourselves on the mat, against strangers who resist, people who have absolutely no intention of being thrown/locked/pinned, people who we do not train with all the time....are we not delusional?

Yes there is a large place for co-operative training (in an aiki sense) but to lose the other part makes us look fools when we protest at the lack of 'martialness' in other arts.

If Aikido was 100 metre sprinting...would we walk slowly and wax philosophical on the journey, dismissing those who try to 'win' as vain and conceitful? That sounds insulting, it was not meant to be. Perhaps I should say...if you claim to practice running then you should be able to run. And Martial Arts requires as much hard training as sprinting, at least.

OSensei tested his Aikido and was the better for it. If he had not, we would not be doing it. :)

Aristeia
02-04-2005, 12:43 PM
I agree with Mark
When I first started Aikido I would have spouted the party line from the brochure on how competition is detrimental, promotes ego and denies you techniques that are unsafe for competition thus watering down the art.
Some of this is true in some circumstances, but it has to be tempered witht he fact that true sporting/sparring arts have th advantage of practicing their techniques against knowledgeable uncooperative opponents, thus making them better fighters. And if you want to come from the angle that MA's are about character development rather than learning to fight, I'd contend there's a good argument to be made that sporting arts offer at least as much in this area. There's nothing like being beaten in sparring, tapping out to older, smaller, weaker people constantly (or kids, or women, or even people you just don't happen to like), and still getting up and getting back on the mat, for character development.

Bryan
02-04-2005, 01:11 PM
Besides Aikido, I am also involved with TKD. I enjoy the sport side of it and I take the few tools the sport offers to ehnance my other MA training. Self Defense is my primary area of interest.

Things I find useful from sport:
-Ditness training
-Distance and timing from an uncooperative opponent
-The intensity of my opponent who's intent on beating on me with a drive beyond practicing techniques.
-Getting use to the feeling of engaging a serious opposition. I know that the people I train Aikido,Hapkido or KungFu with are friends and are not actually trying to cause me harm....no matter how much intent they put into thier techniques.

mj
02-04-2005, 02:53 PM
...and still getting up and getting back on the mat, for character development.
You say it much better :)

tedehara
02-05-2005, 01:13 PM
...When a Judo instructor says 'you cannot win with it' he merely means that it does not work against a competent opponent, like the Men from UNCLEs Karate chops, or Captain Kirks tomoe-nage...What he meant was what I wrote,"You can't win a tournament with it." Why? Because you do judo to win tournaments. That is the competitive mind-set.

If you look at the regimen by Kano, competition was a way to test and improve your understanding of judo. It was not suppose to be the tail that wags the dog.

James Young
02-05-2005, 01:40 PM
Competition in martial arts can definitely be benefical or detrimental to one's art depending on how it is approached or adopted. For me I guess I differetiate it by asking, "Is the person training for competition or is the competiton being used for the training?"

Aristeia
02-05-2005, 03:19 PM
true dat. I train BJJ at a "traditional" BJJ school (if there is such a thing) as well as at a ninjitsu club who have added it to their syllabus (at various times one school or the other is more convenient). It's interesting the differences. The ninjas will be more likely to reccommend pulling up on someone's eye sockets as a way to get the chin up an complete the Gi choke, but BJJ school produces much tougher students because they spar *all* the time. I'm pretty pleased with the mix I'm getting between the two of them.

mj
02-05-2005, 05:32 PM
What he meant was what I wrote,"You can't win a tournament with it." Why? Because you do judo to win tournaments. That is the competitive mind-set.

If you look at the regimen by Kano, competition was a way to test and improve your understanding of judo. It was not suppose to be the tail that wags the dog.
And such a stereotypical dog it is, too.

darin
02-06-2005, 01:22 AM
I think competition is healthy for martial arts. Advancements in protective equipment allow competitions to become more realistic. Technically and physically today's martial artists are much better than those of the past.

bryce_montgomery
02-06-2005, 09:39 AM
I personally have nothing wrong with friendly competition to see how well you know your stuff...but to teach a MA for the sole reason of winning a "rules based" tournament then you are teaching for the wrong reason (in my opinion). I mean, lots of people want to know if their stuff actually works and an open tournament is a great place to try it out...as for some schools and tournaments though....they just don't help much more than raising self confidence a little...or dropping it horribly...

It's really the way the tournament is used...If it's for a "fun test" every once in a while to just see if you've learned anything useful then that's alright...but if it's a completely "rules based" competition where you can only do "certain" things...then I really don't see how that helps you...

But that's just my view...

Bryce

Aristeia
02-06-2005, 12:28 PM
To get the benefits tha competition can offer it needs to be an integral part of training, competing (sparring) needs to be part of the mat culture, part of every training session rather thanan occassional diversion. And for that you need clearly defined rules.

CNYMike
02-09-2005, 12:48 AM
.... The practice of combat techniques is being ignored and will eventually be lost. I have no doubt that these martial practices will exist in military training, but eventually they will be lost for public consumption.

Depends on where you look. Pentjak Silat Serak definitely has not lost one iota of its combative edge. Maha Guru Victor and his students (which includes my Kali instructor, who has been allowed to teach Serak) are working very hard to propogate the art and preserve it. On the Japanese front, there are classical systems that, while maybe not as widely known as Aikido, do have a following. So seriously combative arts are out there and are being preserved.

Oddly enough, Pak Vic said on one occassions that he lamented the fact that he did not yhave someone teaching Tae Kwon Do at his school in Bellflower, CA because "it would bring more kids in." His wife teaches Aikido, and Pak Vic has had nice things to say about it. He especially likes the Ukemi.

Funny old thing, life.

Michael Neal
02-09-2005, 02:55 PM
When we studied Judo we were only taught competition techniques only, We were not taught chokes and strangle holds.

only kids are not allowed to use chokes and arm bars in competition, adults have no such restrictions

Also, I fail to see how a style being more artistic and less sport like would make it more effective. In my experience the opposite is true.

graham butt
02-10-2005, 09:45 AM
We were informed at the time that you had to be 16 and above for him to teach us chokes and strangles etc... i was 16 goin on 17 and my brother was 19 goin on 20. So technically we should have been learning them!

CNYMike
02-10-2005, 12:11 PM
One more thing:

Thai Boxing is a sport.

You want to tell a Thai fighter he can't handle himself for that reason? Good luck.

satchthecat
02-14-2005, 10:28 AM
[B] ohh quality, Awrite man, hows it gone? aye man uve got a point there aye, efter aw, martial arts is becomin like martial sports ye know wit a mean ??? a mean, efter aw, you see the Olympics haein events such as Tae Kwon Do, Judo, Kickboaxin and aww that as part eh their curriculum man

So, tae that extent, the guys spoat on wae wit hes sayin man. Its the c*ck and b*llocks wae wit hes sayin man, top onions man

Rite muckers, am away noo, quality website this man, its the hairy b*llocks. EXCELLENTO !

Michael Neal
02-15-2005, 12:19 AM
Graham, your Judo school must not have been very good. If they are not teaching these to students 16 and above then they are for one, putting their students into competitions at a huge disadvantage. This could also be dangerous since they would be unprepared for these techniques being applied to them with force.

Even some of our Juniors get to learn chokes and armbars on occasion they are just not allowed to use them in randori or shiai until they are 16.

graham butt
02-15-2005, 07:32 AM
yeah to be honest it was quite a bad school... not much teaching and an unreliable instructor.