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Roy Dean
02-02-2005, 03:56 PM
Recently posted on the Underground forum of MMA.TV was this link to a nice aikido highlight reel:

http://www.ryokukai.com/video/brian.mpg

Thought it was worth sharing, if you haven't seen it already.

Sincerely,

Roy Dean

ChristianBoddum
02-02-2005, 04:03 PM
Very,very nice - I was actually touched !

Chr.B.

aikidoc
02-02-2005, 04:18 PM
Who is the instructor and school?

Aristeia
02-02-2005, 05:45 PM
Interesting to see a shoot with sprawl defence (of sorts) tucked in there.

NagaBaba
02-02-2005, 09:36 PM
Very poor technique, all uke are jumping and throw themselves. Locks are not correctly applied so are inefficient. Weapons practice directly from fantasy gameboy.

In one word – run away, run away!!!!

xuzen
02-02-2005, 10:48 PM
Very poor technique, all uke are jumping and throw themselves. Locks are not correctly applied so are inefficient. Weapons practice directly from fantasy gameboy.

In one word -- run away, run away!!!!

Dear Mr. Janczuk,

Having said the above, I wonder if you would be so kind to show us what you define as very good technique where all uke are not jumping and throwing themselves, where locks are correctly applied and are efficient and lastly where weapon practice is not directly from gameboy. A video of how you or your dojo buddies practice would be wonderful my ol' chap.

IMO, I think the dojo is doing the Aikikai/Hombu syllabus. For a normal dojo practice (non-embu) techniques, they seem pretty good.

Boon.

aikidoc
02-02-2005, 10:56 PM
Is this Toribio Sensei? If so, Szczepan is out of line. Toribio Sensei has performed at the Aiki-Expo and I believe is a 5th dan aikikai. He also, if I recall, studies Daito-ryu. I have participated in a seminar training with the Zen Mountain retreat in California. He is very good and his ukemi is outstanding.

The video quality isn't great though.

Aristeia
02-02-2005, 11:05 PM
Very poor technique, all uke are jumping and throw themselves. Locks are not correctly applied so are inefficient. Weapons practice directly from fantasy gameboy.

In one word -- run away, run away!!!!

Thank's for your comments. Looking forward to seeing your video....

PeterR
02-02-2005, 11:08 PM
Is this Toribio Sensei? If so, Szczepan is out of line. Toribio Sensei has performed at the Aiki-Expo and I believe is a 5th dan aikikai. He also, if I recall, studies Daito-ryu. I have participated in a seminar training with the Zen Mountain retreat in California. He is very good and his ukemi is outstanding.

The video quality isn't great though.
Why is he out of line.

Aiki-Expo is not a mark of quality and neither is a 5th Dan nor the study of Daito-ryu.

It was an ok dojo advertisment demo - except for the weapons work (what was that?).

Michael Young
02-02-2005, 11:34 PM
Just an observation...last time someone posted a video demo of Aikido on the Aikiweb, a very similar type of thread developed in which some people started harshly criticizing the technique shown and the people performing in it. The thread devolved into a tirade of those people who believed the Aikido wasn't up to their own (nebulous) standards and those defending the people on the video. As was observed then...you can't judge someone's Aikido quality from a couple of minutes of video. What is the point of making negative comments about what someone out there is doing. If you really want to make some constructive comments, then do so...but simply saying that everything someone is doing is wrong without actually experiencing them personally, is nothing but an indication of your own shortcomings...is there some reason someone should feel it necessary to berate what another is doing? does this make you feel better about what you yourself are doing or somehow validate what you feel is the "correct" or superior way of doing things by saying another is "incorrect" or "inferior"? What you say about someone else often times says more about yourself.

But then again I could be wrong ;)

Mike

Bradence
02-03-2005, 01:12 AM
I think that, regardless of how "good" the aikido in the video may be, it is still very helpful to experience what others in the art are doing. I certainly can't judge the effectiveness of the techniques, but I find it very useful to see what others are doing so that I can make comparisons with what I'm learning. The judgement of "good" or "bad" and even "ass-kickingly street effective" is for each person to make on their own. Then after you've been exposed to more learning you can go back and smile at how foolish you were, and then do so again and again; that is the nature of learning afterall. Thank you very much for the link.

Brad

senshincenter
02-03-2005, 01:55 AM
Peter wrote: "Aiki-Expo is not a mark of quality and neither is a 5th Dan nor the study of Daito-ryu."

An excellent point. It's amazing how much we all have to hear it (again). So thanks for saying it.

dmv

Dazzler
02-03-2005, 06:59 AM
Nice vid.

If I could suggest some critique...

Kotagaeshi...having broken ukes posture why give it back to him? look..uke is bent over then he is standing straight again.

Irimi nage...check out http://www.kyushinkan.com/ ...Its been posted under Peter Browns introduction and shows how this version of irimi nage can be countered with sutemi waza. Further to this...Ukes striking hand remains free - If it contains a knife then it can simply be withdrawn to rip ukes guts out. Finally the irimi nage seems to function solely by applying a forearm smash to ukes neck.

Generally very effective until you meet the no necked monster that every dojo has.

Far better to break ukes balance from the rear. Otherwise for me it is force against force, yang against yang...and not particularly aikido.

Ushiro Waza. No. I can say nothing more that that. Can anyone believe it is good martial arts practice to present your rear to an uke in the hope that he takes your wrist.

I did think the sentiments expressed were very valid and in his way the instructor presented a good selection of aiki . Obviously everyone here practices differently and usually they have a reason for the way they do things. So I don't want to be overly critical.

Hopefully my comments are food for thought...if there are responses then I will learn from them.

Regards

D

aikidoc
02-03-2005, 07:48 AM
Without specifics stating very poor technique is meaningless. Also, I cannot comment on the weapons-they were different.

Toribio sensei is an accomplished martial artist and although the Aiki-Expo may not be a benchmark I have seen him personally and he is a very good teacher. It was one exposure. Also, some styles of aikido do not always operate the same way. The balance criticisms although valid may be due to stylistic differences. Even though balance may be restored momentarily or appear so the energy flow may make it a difficult for the uke to counter.

rob_liberti
02-03-2005, 07:49 AM
The thread devolved into a tirade of those people who believed the Aikido wasn't up to their own (nebulous) standards and those defending the people on the video. As was observed then...you can't judge someone's Aikido quality from a couple of minutes of video.

There must be some standards we can all agree on. I know of a 5th dan (at the time) who was demonstrating shihonage in the Mass area. He called up a 4th kyu who had every intention of doing his best job to take ukemi. The godan basically tried to crank his uke over and when he got way less resistance than he must have been expecting, he actually lost his own balance and fell while trying to demonstrate the waza. I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that this was a sub-par display of godan aikido. (If this means that I'm not spiritually evolved for this judgment then so be it. I kind of feel like if I pay for an aikido seminar, the person should be qualified. If I get a pizza that tastes terrible, I should get to complain about that too, even if I don't know how to make pizzas myself!)

I've had shihan totally fail to do basic waza on me (like tenkan, sankyo, and katadori nikyo), That is just absurd to me as my sempai have NO trouble performing these techniques on me. My feeling is that if your basic waza is sub-par then DECLINE invitations to teach seminars so you have enough time to work on your own basics before going out and teaching nonsense to people!

I know people will want to say, sub-par to what standards, or something like that; so, can we come up with some at least some _less nebulous_ standards? I think we could all agree that the aikido sensei should be able to demonstrate basic waza without falling down especially when working out with willing ukes. I'd say we generally don't expect any jumping kicks in normal aikido practice. Maybe we can take the idea further and say we can expect the person doing aikido to behave in a way that does the minimal damage to the attacker? Any other standards we can agree on?

As far as this specific video is concerned, it is obviously meant to advertise aikido and for that I liked liked it just fine - especially the sprawl (that was great!). In that guy's defence, it's not always so easy to perform stellar technique on white belt ukes because they tend to bail out a bit early, or resist a bit too much in a way that is not really ideal for uke or nage. Black belts do the same, just *generally* not as much.

Rob

akiy
02-03-2005, 10:01 AM
To jump in here, I do not think the video is Julio Toribio sensei. Yes, I've trained with him, too...

-- Jun

Bronson
02-03-2005, 10:18 AM
Can anyone believe it is good martial arts practice to present your rear to an uke in the hope that he takes your wrist.

Obviously everyone here practices differently and usually they have a reason for the way they do things.

As a counterpoint to the first statement and reinforcement of the second: In Seidokan our ushiro attacks come from behind. The thinking is that Uke approached you from behind so you didn't have the opportunity to move to a better position ie. facing uke.

We have a separate type of attack called Ushiromawari+(attack) that denotes Uke coming from the front or side and attempting to get around to your back.

Aren't stylistic differences grand :D

Bronson

John Boswell
02-03-2005, 10:21 AM
As far as the video goes, it was good and bad in many respects:

Good:
Film quality was fair and showed everything well.
Good direction as far as camara angles, the flow of one sequence to the next.
Captured the audiences attention and maintained it. (imho)
Had a good variety of ranks and skills to use (hand and weapons techniques)

Bad:
Much of the ukemi was poor. At one point I saw someone do a full flip and land on his hands and knees.
Harsh technique. Iriminage that lifted people up and turned them upside down? I'd like to see the landing on that one.
Over dramatized: I think much of what was demonstrated was for effect more than for instruction or proper technique.
Word usage wasn't met well with the video at one point. "Aikido is Love." and then it move on to uke's being slammed around, again more for effect, imo. Needed to better explain where the "love" was/is.

It was good and it was bad. I like the fact that it was done and people are working to get Aikido more widely known in the world. I did a search for M.A.T.E. productions but could find nothing on them. (yet) There was an american flag on the wall in the background, so we can assume this to be an american instructor and dojo, but I wouldn't dare try to name the instructor. I don't think anyone else has said definitivly, "That is Sensei Soandso", so no disrespect should be intended toward any specific person, also imho.

Overall: take from it what you will and leave the rest. Everyone will react differently and we can't take that personally.

Have a good day! :)

kironin
02-03-2005, 10:22 AM
To jump in here, I do not think the video is Julio Toribio sensei. Yes, I've trained with him, too...
-- Jun

I was going to say also that it is not Julio Toribio Sensei. I can't remember if I trained with him, but I have certainly talked to him face to face and watched his demos at the Aiki-Expo. That's not him in the video.

Regardless of what you think the quality of the aikido is in the video, I think it's a smart idea to have video like that for marketing.

I am more interested in learning where this organization comes from ?
http://www.ryokukai.com/
the teacher appears to be a Karateka pushing Ki healing for cancer.
there is no information on Aikido lineage or who actually is the aikido teacher(s) that I could find on the website.

to quote from website
"1973 : At age 30, he founded International Ryokukai Karatedo , a new karate style based on the best of what he had discovered through his study of a variety of karate styles, plus Aikido and Iaido.
...
1984 : Niikura came to the USA and in the process moved the home dojo of international Ryokukai to Sterling Heights Michigan."


Anybody know anything about Katsumi Niikura ?

Michael Young
02-03-2005, 10:29 AM
There must be some standards we can all agree on. I know of a 5th dan (at the time) who was demonstrating shihonage in the Mass area. He called up a 4th kyu who had every intention of doing his best job to take ukemi. The godan basically tried to crank his uke over and when he got way less resistance than he must have been expecting, he actually lost his own balance and fell while trying to demonstrate the waza. I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that this was a sub-par display of godan aikido. (If this means that I'm not spiritually evolved for this judgment then so be it. I kind of feel like if I pay for an aikido seminar, the person should be qualified. If I get a pizza that tastes terrible, I should get to complain about that too, even if I don't know how to make pizzas myself!)

In general, I agree with you, I think there should be some universal standards, but judging by the things I've seen both in my travels and the discussions I've read on these and other threads, there are many who would disagree what those standards should be. I also agree about getting bad pizza, but its hard for me to judge how a pizza tastes by watching someone else eat it :confused: .

My point was not that we shouldn't discuss the merits of something we see, but just jumping to generalized, harsh, high-handed criticisms about someone's ability to teach and perform Aikido isn't the way to go about it, and says more about the person making the comments than about those being commented upon. Yes, if I see some ridiculous demonstration of people holding their hands out and making people fall ten feet across the room from them, or a guy standing in bikini briefs with blood on his chest and arms raised above his head in victory after displaying his "Aikido" prowess...I might have something overtly critical to say. No doubt there are some standards...but there is also a lot of gray area within those standards too.
Addressing this video directly, it seems that the opinions are that overall it is a decent piece of Aikido demo, but not an example of perfect technique demonstrated every time...this is how I feel about it also. But then show me some video of someone performing "perfect" Aikido. I didn't see anywhere on the video that claims the people on it were all-powerful-perfect-masters of Aikido. I rather enjoyed watching it, and yes there are things that I wouldn't do in my Aikido practice that they do...but that doesn't invalidate their practice or pursuit of Aikido, or even the stuff demonstrated on the short video clip. Discussing what they did on the 2 minute video demo is not invalid, but it also isn't an excuse to berate other people and what they do in order to validate your own sense of "right and wrong".

Mike

Dazzler
02-03-2005, 10:30 AM
As a counterpoint to the first statement and reinforcement of the second: In Seidokan our ushiro attacks come from behind. The thinking is that Uke approached you from behind so you didn't have the opportunity to move to a better position ie. facing uke.

We have a separate type of attack called Ushiromawari+(attack) that denotes Uke coming from the front or side and attempting to get around to your back.

Aren't stylistic differences grand :D

Bronson

Thanks for the explanation Bronson. I think the second attack you describe is more like our version.

As I hoped...I learn something about the way others practice. ;)

Cheers

D

senshincenter
02-03-2005, 10:36 AM
Here's our take on ushiro-waza:

Ushiro-waza, or “rear techniques,” are not a venture into self-defense scenario training any more than katate-dori is such a venture.  As katate-dori involves a martial honing of the body/mind by providing a tactile reference to the quality of one’s martial attributes in the wrist-grab, ushiro-waza also cultivates a martial honing of the body/mind but by alternate means.  More than techniques from the front, ushiro-waza addresses the ever-changing dynamic of combat by allowing for more varied relationships to manifest themselves between uke’s and nage’s paths of action.  That is to say, the combination of vectors concerning things like Angles of Attack and Angles of Deviation become multitudinous within the very same engagement.  This abundance allows for an inexhaustible diversity that pressures the binary logic of the beginning practitioner to succumb to the fact that there should not be nor need be a front or back in combat, that there should not be nor need be a right or left in combat, that there should not be nor need be a near or far in combat, that there should not be nor need be an inside or outside in combat, etc.  Through spiraling tactical architectures, via ushiro-waza the aikidoka is to explore the various vector-to-vector relationships that are probable and possible as well as the tactical responses that are valid within an ever-changing situation that will always be void of any kind of two-dimensional orientation for that very reason.  Like katate-dori, the various grabs associated with ushiro-waza (e.g. ryote-dori, eri-dori, ryokata-dori, etc.) provide tactile sensors and/or stressors by which the quality of one’s technique (i.e. the level at which a martial concept is embodied) can be measured and further cultivated.

bryce_montgomery
02-03-2005, 11:48 AM
I personally thought the video was nicely shot, with clean transitions, good footage (no matter if the form was correct or not...It would draw people in), background music, etc...

Bryce

jonreading
02-03-2005, 11:53 AM
How does the saying go? "Let he/she who has a video throw the first stone."

Sounds like lots of good comments to improve for video 2. Its often hard to perform on camera, and even harder when the action is not choreographed. It's tough to do picture-perfect aikido all of the time. I am not condoning bad technique because it looks better on film, but it's tough to make aikido look good on film.


I think there are definitely some techniques and sequences you'll want to revisit, but congratulations for putting something "in writing." I find a lot of aikido people tend to stay away from exposure (criticism perhaps?). This includes anything that can be used against them. I remember seeing my shodan tape and saying "what is that crap?". I am very self-conscious of myself and my aikido, and its tough to do something that exposes it to criticism. You have a great work-in-progress and I hope to continue to improve the video.

aikidoc
02-03-2005, 11:54 AM
I wasn't sure if it was Toribio sensei-glad for the clarification. It looked a little like him due to the moustache and his lack of hair. There were a couple of points where he moved a little like him but the randori did not look like him. Thanks for the clairification.

The ukemi was overplayed but sometimes you get real light ukes and they do fly when a technique is done fully. If you watch Seagal's Path Beyond Thought, some of his ukes were over rotated as well althought I don't recall them landing face down.

With modern editing capabilities, we should start seeing better quality and presentation on such videos. This can only be good.

Roy Dean
02-03-2005, 12:35 PM
Hello all. I'm surprised at the varied responses this video has produced.

First of all, I have no idea who this instructor is. Someone on MMA.TV posted that they knew who he was, and that he was actually a very tough guy (that comment was a reaction to about 40 postings clowning the effectiveness of aikido). Apparently, his name is Brian, not Julio Toribio. For those interested in Julio Toribio, more information can be found here:

http://www.seibukanjujutsu.com/seibufounder.html

I can assure you, he is the real deal.

As for the criticisms of it being "poor technique", I would tend to disagree. Perhaps not all techniques were "perfect", but in the spectrum of Aikido I've been exposed to, I thought it was a nice mix of hard and soft. Many of the movements done by the instructor were dynamic, crisp, and well timed. The students training exercises were just that, exercises. Not everything is gold the first time you try it, you know. Ugly, imperfect repetitions have to take place sometime, somewhere. And the weapons work looks like it was also a training exercise, not randori. The video was obviously culled from real training and real practice sessions. I think it should be taken for what it is, and not held to the "highest" standard.

Additionally, much of the real power in grappling arts (Aikido, Judo, BJJ, Wrestling, Sambo, etc), has to be FELT to be appreciated- seeing is not enough. One example is Hakko-Ryu Jujutsu, named after the "invisible" nature of its techniques (School of the Eighth Light, or the infrared spectrum). In BJJ, while it may LOOK like my instructor Roy Harris is simply holding somebody down, what CAN'T be seen is the amount of pressure he applies (enough to crack ribs, which has happened on several occasions). Rickson Gracie has a similar pressure game, which leads some to believe his fights are fixed (particularly against the experienced and formidable Funaki). Seeing is not enough. Feeling is believing.

And, Mr. Janczuk, I would be very interested in seeing an example of your excellent techniques, since you're so quick to criticize. Tell you what, I'll show you mine, if you show me yours.

Go to www.royharris.com and click on the Roy Dean footage. This is also a short video culled from training sessions. You can even see me get tapped out by a girl.

I look forward to seeing your technical standard in the near future. I'm sure it's something we would all aspire towards.

Sincerely,

Roy Dean

Bronson
02-03-2005, 12:54 PM
That was cool Roy...thanks for sharing. Looks like you guys have a lot of fun :)

Bronson

Kevin Leavitt
02-03-2005, 01:22 PM
I think the video was not so much to say "wow, look at me...my technique is perfect", but more about celebrating the joy and brotherhood of aikido.

That is what I saw, and in that respect, he captured the "technique" that is really important about aikido.

Michael Young
02-03-2005, 03:25 PM
Nicely put Roy, I think you said it better than I did. I tried to watch your footage, but it wouldn't work on my browser for some reason (I do have broadband also). Is there any way you could put it into a downloadable file (like an mpeg or quicktime file)?

Mike

BTW don't be suprised at the responses, in fact, see this thread for even more extreme responses to a video:

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6652

AsimHanif
02-03-2005, 03:50 PM
First, thank you for the video Roy.
Second, I agree that just because someone has any rank or performed anywhere it validates them. Not everyone who performed at Carnegie Hall was "great" so to speak.
Third, I find it more interesting and disturbing that so many people want to find fault in what was presented instead of focusing on what was good. It reminds me of all those people who like to berate an overmatched fighter but never get into the ring themselves. Who am "I" to hold someone else to my standards? My shit stinks too. I guess I thought aikido was for correcting yourself....

Roy Dean
02-03-2005, 04:28 PM
Michael,

I can't seem to access my video either. Strange, it's been working for the past month, and now, it was only up long enough for Bronson to see it. I contacted the webmaster and hope this issue can be resolved soon.

Best,

Roy

Lan Powers
02-03-2005, 06:04 PM
Roy, I saw it and enjoyed as well.......(you also turn a nice phrase) :)
Lan

NagaBaba
02-03-2005, 10:25 PM
And, Mr. Janczuk, I would be very interested in seeing an example of your excellent techniques, since you're so quick to criticize.
Sincerely,

Roy Dean
My technique is so excellent, that after watching it more then once, most ppl simply get heart attack. So I can’t take a risk of being sued. I never repeat technique twice, just like Him ;)

Also, having done ikkyo more then half a million times, I don’t need any *%^@$ feeling to recognize a good technique from BS. With a glance of eye I simply KNOW what is good. I’m like that.
If you can’t do it, train more.
Anybody who put his video on internet must have a very tough skin!

George S. Ledyard
02-04-2005, 12:32 AM
Is this Toribio Sensei? If so, Szczepan is out of line. Toribio Sensei has performed at the Aiki-Expo and I believe is a 5th dan aikikai. He also, if I recall, studies Daito-ryu. I have participated in a seminar training with the Zen Mountain retreat in California. He is very good and his ukemi is outstanding.

The video quality isn't great though.
That is not Julio Toribio Sensei but I am not sure who it actually is...

Bronson
02-04-2005, 01:35 AM
The only thing we know is that his name is Brian and that he probably is an instructor for Katsumi Niikura at one his Ryokukai (http://www.ryokukai.com/) branches.

I went looking around Katsumi Niikura's site and, like Craig, can find no mention of his Aikido teachers. In fact there are no teachers names or organizations given for ANY of the arts he's studied--Karate, Judo, Ikebana, Iaido, or Aikido.

Bronson

ed3r
02-04-2005, 06:21 AM
Thanks for the video, i enjoyed it.
since im only new, i liked some of the techniques in which the attacker did not hold back, and was taken down very quickly.
this can show the effectiveness of aikido in life situations, in which the attacker does not know what is going to happen.
ah well anyway sorry for the rambling
nice video, thanks

kironin
02-04-2005, 07:04 AM
poor technique, good technique
showing the effectiveness of aikido in life situations. hmmm

the email response from one of my students sort of summed up for me.

"All I know is that I kept saying "Ouch".
And that I couldn't make the connection
between the labels (honor, love, etc) and
the examples that directly followed them' "


pretty rough form for group that fills it's schedule with Ki clinics and classes.
not my cup of tea.

Peter Brown
02-05-2005, 12:09 PM
Looking at the video it was clear that everyone enjoyed the experiance, it is very easy to find problems and mistakes in everyones Aikido as a Sensei you can only do your best, I thought that if Taisabaki was added to the techniques, the video would have shown more of the flowing movments in Aikido, I think to perform effective kaishi waza the you must make a mistake in your technique that allows the opening for your partner to strike, kaishi waza is a good learning tool to show poor technique.In the new Taisabaki DVD by Kyu Shin Kan a section demonstates kaishi waza, and also as pointed out by Daran Simms we have a short clip on our web page www.kyushinkan.com
Pete Brown.

Drew Herron
02-06-2005, 07:59 PM
I liked the video. Poor quality, but good content. It sort of seemed like propaganda though. Maybe Aikido needs more propaganda... Let's start proselytizing. Anyone want to go door to door?

-Drew

PS Anyone know what the music is?

stuartjvnorton
02-06-2005, 10:42 PM
My only real gripe was the "reverse 2.5 spin in the pike position" ukemi.

kironin
02-07-2005, 12:40 AM
PS Anyone know what the music is?

Nadia by Jeff Beck

Keith R Lee
02-08-2005, 11:36 AM
The video was pretty good. Yeah, the ukemi was a little over the top, but it was still honest, hard training. *shrug* Looks good to me. I agree with whoever said this earlier, I really liked seeing the sprawl defense against a double-leg. Not enough Aikido folks give that attack due-consideration.

I debated back and forth about putting this online but I figure, whatever. I put this video together last summer, right before my friend's sandan test. This was us training about two weeks prior to the test. I'm the uke throughout the entire video.

It's a big file, close to 22 megs so if you're not on broadband, be patient or tough luck. Sorry.

Here it is. (http://www.boat-drinks.us/images/Aikido-Out.mov)

.mov file so you'll need Quicktime as well.

senshincenter
02-08-2005, 12:01 PM
Hey Keith, way to go. I like the "whatever" attitude that allowed you to offer your link here. That's the spirit. I wish more folks would post their video on the Net - especially the talkers and the folks that don't like to let everyone talk. It is so darn easy to do nowadays. Outside of them, or besides them, video helps make people's points - so it takes this forum to a whole other level - a deeper level - a better level. It would be great if there were more one-to-one relationships between what folks are saying and a video that demonstrates that point trying to be made in writing. To do that, I think many more folks are going to have to say, "Whatever!" I also like the way this thread turned away from the direction these kind of threads had so easily followed in the past. So, though it's not my place to say "thank you" to anyone in particular, I do want to say that I'm grateful to see that AikiWeb.com has matured to another level of community.

And most of all - concerning your video - one has to love the music! :-)

NagaBaba
02-08-2005, 01:19 PM
I debated back and forth about putting this online but I figure, whatever. I put this video together last summer, right before my friend's sandan test. This was us training about two weeks prior to the test. I'm the uke throughout the entire video.
Now, this video is completly different thing. One can see solid basic.
However, tori, at the end of the throws loose his balance, and not only one time. For sandan level, it shouldn't happen. Other thing is that very often uke is standing in good balance in the middle(like 1-2 seconds), and tori going around him. For sandan level, he should be able to maintain his uke always out of balance. And for me, tori must be in the center of movement not uke,because tori wants to take a center of uke.

Interesting weapons work. For me you guys you go too wide out of line of attack. This way you lose time and create openings. In reality one needs only step out 2-3 cm, certainly not a big step.

And the music :) ;)

Keith R Lee
02-08-2005, 06:52 PM
Not really sure who this "tori" fellow is you're talking about. I see a shite and an uke...

As for loosing balance, A) like the textscroll said, we were goofing around. B) No one keeps their balance all the time on every throw, be realistic.

As for me standing still, we're going over some henka waza (read: practice), so I'm just letting him do his thing. Like it said at the end, we weren't going full out or anything.

Glad you guys liked the music. I was thinking people would think it was too aggressive and not aiki-fruity enough. ;)

NagaBaba
02-08-2005, 09:24 PM
tori = shite

batemanb
02-09-2005, 02:20 AM
tori = shite


That's not a very nice thing to say, he didn't look too bad to me. I guess it's all in the pronounciation ;)

PeterR
02-09-2005, 02:36 AM
I liked the video. A great reflection of Budo practice.

ian
02-09-2005, 09:18 AM
I liked the video, but I'm well aware of the irony that newcomers often feel when we talk about aikido as peace and love etc. and then you see some video of people being slammed on the mat.

My aikido is slightly different, but I thought this was excellent (good timing and posture). Some people are too indoctrinated by their own instructor to belive anything else could possibly be good!

Agreement on common standards? - the aikido that doesn't damage you in training yet protects you in real life; that's the only real measure. Therefore for most of us we never really get that ability to measure our aikido and I think we should be inquisitive yet humble in light of our ancestors who lived in more violent times (1 in 20 men died from violent causes in medieval britain).

Ron Tisdale
02-09-2005, 09:21 AM
And yoshinkan to the core...I liked it too. One question...I think I noticed one empty hand yoke (block) against the jo...that seemed a little odd to me. Is that what I saw, or was there a tanto or something I didn't notice?

Also, while I agree in principle with some of Mr. S's value judgements (though a bit nitpicky given the situation described), one thing I think is perhaps a stylistic difference, is that I believe I have seen high level yoshinkan instructors both move uke around them, and move themselves around uke, depending on the circumstances. Could some of the more experienced yoshinkan folks weigh in on this one? I'd be very interested in what Peter Goldsbury has to say on that as well. Just to be clear, I'm refering to:

And for me, tori must be in the center of movement not uke,because tori wants to take a center of uke.

Thanks for stepping up and posting that!
Best,
Ron


Good job,
Ron

Keith R Lee
02-09-2005, 06:03 PM
I'm glad people seem to be liking it.

I have seen alot of aikido videos on the web but never any that seemed to focus on the way I like to practice. Good hard traing, just go, etc. Also, and no offense intended, there seemed to be a distinct lack of (what I consider) good basics in many of the videos I have seen. Timing, balance, just plain throwing-someone-like-you-mean-it, etc. But that could just be the Yosh in me talking. Then again, there doesn't seem to be alot of Yoshinkan (or Shotokan, I like the way you guys train too!) videos on the web minus what's here on Aikiweb.

Anyway, making a video wasn't my intent when filming this, it just sort of happend after I was going over the footage. There other thing I have noticed with alot of Aikido clips is a lack of modern editing work. I'm not saying that I'm good at it per se, (the video is choppy is some spots) but I tried my best to make it look something that would be professionally put together.

Ron, as for the block, yeah it is a block with the hand. Those Kumi Jo sets we were doing were the ones the AAA does I think. I don't really know that much about them, and yes, the block seems a little funny to me. The instructor who taught them to us had learned them from Toyoda sensei so maybe a long time AAA student could chime in. We were just fooling around with them. They were hard to do cause we didn't know how much we were supposed to pivot. :confused:

Anyway, if people like the video, feel free to share it, or use it or whatever, I don't mind.

Cheers,

maikerus
02-09-2005, 07:24 PM
Keith,

Thanks for sharing that video. I really enjoyed it. Well done!

--Michael

maikerus
02-09-2005, 07:41 PM
is that I believe I have seen high level yoshinkan instructors both move uke around them, and move themselves around uke, depending on the circumstances.

Hey Ron,

As a fellow YoshiOrc, I agree with you. I've seen/felt both too. Anyone watching Ando Sensei will see the value of shite moving around uke (and that's before the "technique" part of the technique even starts half the time).

My take would be that as shite you want to be in the strongest position for the next movement in the technique while uke is in the weakest. That can be achieved sometimes by move uke around you and sometimes by you moving around uke.

A good example is shihonage because there you don't really want uke to take a step, but want to rotate their arm around their shoulder, so shite has to move to make that rotation work.

On the other hand, in irimi nage or kotegaeshi its a lot easier if uke is constantly falling around you before the technique is applied.

I do sometimes find that in our [Yoshinkan] training shite sometimes seems to make a lot of moves to do one thing to uke, but the concept of uke not feeling anything (or just a brief discomfort) before the final *splat*(tm) is key to this idea.

My thoughts...which are all borrowed and have been re-packaged for the internet...

--Michael

NagaBaba
02-09-2005, 11:18 PM
My take would be that as shite you want to be in the strongest position for the next movement in the technique while uke is in the weakest. That can be achieved sometimes by move uke around you and sometimes by you moving around uke.

A good example is shihonage because there you don't really want uke to take a step, but want to rotate their arm around their shoulder, so shite has to move to make that rotation work.
--Michael
I think, not only shihonage, but ANY technique in any aikido style is not possible to do on static attacker.
It doesn't depend of style; it is based on physical construction of human body.
Because aikido is an exchange. If shite moving around of uke, and uke is not moving, it means that uke holds his balance. it means an opening and possible counter.

In my shihonage uke is ALWAYS moving, in both, omote and ura versions. I can lead him using leverage, timing and changing distance, but I lead him in the way, he's moving AND loosing his balance.

Even if you go for choke behind uke, he must move forward as you enter irimi. Otherwise irimi isn't possible. I can't see ANY martial reason to go around uke. Aikido is based on sword work. With sword, you not waving and running around opponent, you enter and cut his center(irimi and atemi). Aikido is about that.

batemanb
02-10-2005, 02:13 AM
In my shihonage uke is ALWAYS moving, in both, omote and ura versions. I can lead him using leverage, timing and changing distance, but I lead him in the way, he's moving AND loosing his balance.



Doing Aikido technique is about adapting to the situation, and the uke attacking you. In a perfect world, I agree with Szczepan, you become the centre and uke moves around you. But it's not always a perfect world, sometimes you may be forced to change your position. In this instance, it is quite acceptable for you to go around uke. Going around uke doesn't mean that you suddenly forget how to do the technique though, you still lead uke using leverage, timing and ma ai, these are always ki (;)) to any technique.

rgds

Bryan

rob_liberti
02-10-2005, 07:39 AM
These absolutes are not helpful. If person who has the role of "uke" is completely not moving then why are we calling that person "uke"? Also, I agree that in sword, you enter, thrust, and/or cut, and maybe slice after cutting. But, you do it from superior position or when you enter you get thrusted, and/or cut, and maybe sliced after being cut. So you still have to move around the other person a bit. I find that 100% ura (where the nage/peacemaker/whatever is in the center) is just as unrealistic as 100% omote (where the uke/attacker/escalator is in the center). - Rob.

Ron Tisdale
02-10-2005, 08:25 AM
If shite moving around of uke, and uke is not moving, it means that uke holds his balance.

I haven't found that to be true. Shioda Sensei, in either Dynamic Aikido, or The Masters Course, speaks of 'fixing' uke's power, and of breaking their balance and freezing them in one position. Breaking someone's balance is one thing, breaking their balance and keeping them from taking a step and regaining their balance another.

But I must say that I have felt people like Henry Smith Sensei who spiral me around them like a top while seemingly barely moving themselves. It is a wonderful style of technique, very powerfull, and a good example of flowing from ikkyo, nikyo, sankyo, yonkyo, iriminage then down! without me ever regaining balance. When I try his technique, I'm moving all over the place! When he does it, I'm moving, he is still and balanced, and I've got no choice except ride the wind...and pray he doesn't smack me somewhere in there because my ukemi stinks... :)

I thought the jo work form was yosh, but the movements and positioning looked unfamiliar...now I understand why...Thanks!

Ron

Keith R Lee
02-10-2005, 08:58 AM
I thought the jo work form was yosh, but the movements and positioning looked unfamiliar...now I understand why...Thanks!

Ron

Well, we tried to make it yosh looking, instead we were probably screwing it up!

I have to say I think it's ok for uke to be still for a moment while shite moves or vice versa during a technique. Shite should attempt to maintain maximum control during the entire techniqque of course, but once two people start to move together, who knows what could happen.

Also,

Breaking someone's balance is one thing, breaking their balance and keeping them from taking a step and regaining their balance another.

is something I've felt as uke many times from certain instructors and I think quite applicable to the situation that is being described (though not perhaps so well in my video. Cut us some slack! ;) )

NagaBaba
02-10-2005, 09:20 AM
I haven't found that to be true. Shioda Sensei, in either Dynamic Aikido, or The Masters Course, speaks of 'fixing' uke's power, and of breaking their balance and freezing them in one position. Breaking someone's balance is one thing, breaking their balance and keeping them from taking a step and regaining their balance another.

Ron
I'd like very much to feel it one day.
For the moment I think it is only possible if there is some kind of convention that prevent uke from being actif.

Otherwise, I think it is simply physically impossible to freez uke after breaking his balance(see judo players). Advanced uke, only by slightly shifting his weigh, without moving at all is able to regain his balance. That's why I keep him moving all time in order to maintain off balance.

maikerus
02-10-2005, 09:25 AM
In my shihonage uke is ALWAYS moving, in both, omote and ura versions. I can lead him using leverage, timing and changing distance, but I lead him in the way, he's moving AND loosing his balance.

Hmmm...you make a good point. However, I wonder if you are stating that uke has to move their feet to lose their balance. This may be the easiest way, but I don't believe it to be the only way.

As Ron alluded to, one of the concepts that Gozo Shioda Sensei has passed on is that as shite your "job", if you will, is to find the place where uke loses their balance by buckling their knees. This can be done in a variety of ways, not all of which necessitate uke moving their feet. And if uke does not move their feet then their chances of regaining their balance are lessened.

What do you think?

--Michael

maikerus
02-10-2005, 09:28 AM
I'd like very much to feel it one day.
For the moment I think it is only possible if there is some kind of convention that prevent uke from being actif.

Otherwise, I think it is simply physically impossible to freez uke after breaking his balance(see judo players). Advanced uke, only by slightly shifting his weigh, without moving at all is able to regain his balance. That's why I keep him moving all time in order to maintain off balance.

I've felt it. Your feet literally cannot move and your balance is totally dependent on what shite decides to do to you.

Fun...even excilerating...but sometimes terrifying.

--Michael

Ron Tisdale
02-10-2005, 09:57 AM
but sometimes terrifying.

Nope...always! :)
Ron

Fred Little
02-10-2005, 11:34 AM
I'd like very much to feel it one day.
For the moment I think it is only possible if there is some kind of convention that prevent uke from being actif.

Otherwise, I think it is simply physically impossible to freez uke after breaking his balance(see judo players). Advanced uke, only by slightly shifting his weigh, without moving at all is able to regain his balance. That's why I keep him moving all time in order to maintain off balance.

Convention is one possibility. Another is the line of attack of a second or third uke or some other environmental variable.

Optimally, yes, nage wants to be able to be still while moving uke. But if there are multiple lines of attack, or walls, or surface drops that can intervene, there may be case-by-case reasons for nage to move while uke does not.

Given the difficulty of getting to the point where nage can consistently make uke move around, as a practical matter, if you train toward that goal while keeping an eye on how you have to move to fix your mistakes on the suboptimal reps, it should be possible to develop both skill sets over time.

Fred Little

NagaBaba
02-10-2005, 10:10 PM
But if there are multiple lines of attack, or walls, or surface drops that can intervene, there may be case-by-case reasons for nage to move while uke does not.

Fred Little
In the case of multiple attacks, nage has to move, to chose next attacker. But he has max 1 second to throw each attacker, so both, uke and nage must move. And in fact, nage goes by very linear movement, so going around of uke is out of question.

Of course the wall will stop definitely an attacker, when you throw him with great power ;) ;) ;)

NagaBaba
02-10-2005, 10:27 PM
Hmmm...you make a good point. However, I wonder if you are stating that uke has to move their feet to lose their balance. This may be the easiest way, but I don't believe it to be the only way.

As Ron alluded to, one of the concepts that Gozo Shioda Sensei has passed on is that as shite your "job", if you will, is to find the place where uke loses their balance by buckling their knees. This can be done in a variety of ways, not all of which necessitate uke moving their feet. And if uke does not move their feet then their chances of regaining their balance are lessened.

What do you think?

--Michael
Well, I don't know......if uke is very stiff, doing kihon (convention, convention...) it can be done. But normally, any good attacker wants to regain his balance immediately, he will not stack himself in one place waiting to be off balanced. He will do many small steps and body shifting in order to preserve/regain his balance, if he is "alive". More advanced practice is when attacker resists AND continually adjusts his stance to prevent easy off balancing.

And then, you have situation, when attacker uses every opening in your technique to make a counter…
So many levels of practice existe ;)

Of course, rather standard situation in aikido dojo is that uke after ending his first attack, simply wait passively to be locked or thrown. So with such “attacker” <-we can call him rather "throwing doll", not real attacker, you can may be put him and preserve off balance without moving him.

maikerus
02-10-2005, 10:35 PM
But normally, any good attacker wants to regain his balance immediately, he will not stack himself in one place waiting to be off balanced.

I think this was the point :)

Any good attacker *will* try and regain his balance immediately. It follows that any good shite will try and make it so that he cannot. It also follows that a "good attacker" will try to attack without losing their balance at all...so maybe a good shite might have to deal with that.

If uke keeps their balance by standing firm and planting feet then having them lose their balance without having them need to move their feet seems like a good thing to do.

Seems like a pretty straight forward concept to me. Especially since I've been there. <wry grin>

Of course, Its hard to practice something that you haven't seen and don't believe in. Its more of a theoretical discussion than anything else for me anyway. Maybe when I get older I'll understand more <sigh>.

cheers,

--Michael

Ron Tisdale
02-11-2005, 08:43 AM
Well, I don't know......if uke is very stiff, doing kihon (convention, convention...) it can be done.

Your choice of words leads me to believe that you don't understand very much about the practice in question...my own teachers prefer uke not be stiff, and not be a rag-doll. One of my own major problems is that I'm much too stiff as uke and as shite, and my seniors constantly work with me to improve this.

Ron

senshincenter
02-11-2005, 01:52 PM
I would say that "convention" is always going to fall on the side of any tactic that remains singular in its aspect. So more than likely, whenever you are by decision or by tradition going to attempt to satisfy ALL tactical situations with a singular tactic that is trying to be stretched into a universal, more times than not one is going to have to use "convention" in training environments in order to make sure that the short-comings of such a perspective are not too exposed. A good example of this can be seen in all those types of ukemi where Uke runs around Nage for no reason or solely for the reason of "following" and or of "staying connected" - which are euphemisms for "convention." In such cases, in my opinion, it is the raising of the position that "Nage must always remain the center of the technique - at all times" to the level of being a universal that motivates such highly unmartial responses.

It may be the case that one may find more need for tenkan over irimi, or it may be the case that one will find more need for clearing the line of attack over staying on it, or it may be the case that one may find more need for Yang over Yin, etc., or vice versa, but it should never be the case that one aspect of a tactic should be over-stretched and falsely held up as a universal. If there is one thing that will never make sense, in my opinion, it is that.

To be sure, you don't want someone standing still waiting for you to fidget with their hands until you figure something out, but that doesn't mean that we want to limit our tactical options to only having our attacker go around us. The chaos of a real hand to hand engagement demands that you do whatever works, and to do whatever works, one must be open to every possibility. In my opinion, Aikido is the reconciling of all possibilities, not the censoring or restricting of some or the uplifting and glorifying of others.

NagaBaba
02-12-2005, 11:05 PM
The chaos of a real hand to hand engagement demands that you do whatever works, and to do whatever works, one must be open to every possibility. In my opinion, Aikido is the reconciling of all possibilities, not the censoring or restricting of some or the uplifting and glorifying of others.
well, more I practice, I'm more convinced that exists only very few general principles that tori/shite must follow. Exactly because of this reality what you call “chaos”. On that level, things must be (and are!!!) very simple, if you want to preserve efficiency of your work(techniques, movements, etc…). Remember principle called KISS?
Because these are principles, there is nothing to restrict you, on contrary, it gives you a lot of freedom, but you can’t do anything you like. Quite paradox, isn’t it? ;)

Another example can be principle of “one step”. Normally only one step is needed to attack efficiently, so aikido technique must be applied during this step, enter into the attack and throw/pin attacker. If you allow attacker for more liberty, he can counter any of your techniques. Now, if you combine previous principle with this one, it gives interesting picture of application.
Both principles can be found in weapons practice, it is not only my imagination or choice. Of course folks that don't practice sword, can have difficulty to find these principles.

senshincenter
02-13-2005, 01:39 AM
Yes, I think that is something I can agree with - if I am understanding you correctly. Both principles (e.g. going around and being the center) are found in, for example, sword technique - or in all technique. I think it is always like that - both sides of a tactic are present, though both are never equal. The principle marks the presence (or the potential) of a tactic, but the situation marks correctness. Still, I don't think that correctness negates potential or principle - it only qualifies it. And that's why I would say, in agreement with Mr. Liberti, disqualifying something by a philosophy of absolutes is probably not the best thing. Let's just say, "For situation 'x,' doing 'y' is probably not the best thing and/or even the correct thing." That is the kind of statement my own experience can agree with.

Interestingly, it is often the case that in sword (vs. sword) you go around more than the vice versa (which is for the most part different from body art as it is commonly practiced in some circles) - go figure. ;-)