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justinc
01-31-2005, 01:18 PM
I just went and created two new lists at the above page:
http://www.aikiweb.com/wiki/people/nonjapanese - Non-Japanese aikido yudansha with ranks at or above 7th dan


Just wanted to note that several of the USA people are not Aikikai. They belong to California Aikido Association, which is it's own separate structure that reports directly to Humbo Dojo. Should this be fixed?

akiy
01-31-2005, 01:22 PM
Just wanted to note that several of the USA people are not Aikikai. They belong to California Aikido Association, which is it's own separate structure that reports directly to Humbo Dojo. Should this be fixed?
If you think your changes will improve things, then by all means please feel encouraged to make them!

(Technically, though, the CAA does fall under the Aikikai umbrella of organizations.)

-- Jun

Qatana
01-31-2005, 07:37 PM
Justin, I just want to reiterate, as a student of a CAA dojo, we are 100% Akikai. So much so that my sensei put down ALL of the mats for Doshu's visit to the Bay Area last year. All of our dan certificates come from Hombu, the yudansha books come from Hombu, our organisation head was named Shihan by Hombu..
Can't get much closer, in my book.

justinc
02-01-2005, 09:53 AM
Jo, your thoughts on CAA v Aikikai are, unfortunately, not universal. The reason I brought the issue up is

1) When I read through the Wiki yesterday, some pages were making the distinction between Aikikai and CAA.
2) Legally speaking CAA is not a member of the Aikikai organisation here in the USA. Separate entities and they don't use the same grading structures so they're not directly equivalent.

There is still somewhat interesting political things going on. I've been corrected in a CAA dojo for calling them Aikikai. They may be registered directly with Hombu dojo, and thus under Aikikai World HQ, but there are a number of people that are quite touchy about that being directly applied to the day to day operations. If these people saw the Aikikai label applied to say Frank Doran Shihan above, they would be more than a little offended.

Wikis can be an interesting place, but they tend to be fraught with a lot of political dangers. This can get really nasty when two competing interests don't agree on terminology or labelling. A rather nasty game of pong develops as each tries to erase the other's changes to it. Better to try to sort out out here the expectations before it arrives on the Wiki.

akiy
02-01-2005, 10:01 AM
2) Legally speaking CAA is not a member of the Aikikai organisation here in the USA.
Can you explain this bit further?

For the record, here's a certificate stating that the CAA is an official organization within the United States under the Aikikai Foundation:

http://www.ai-ki-do.org/AboutCAA/caa_certificate.gif
Separate entities and they don't use the same grading structures so they're not directly equivalent.
How are the grading structures different?
If these people saw the Aikikai label applied to say Frank Doran Shihan above, they would be more than a little offended.
I'll ask Doran sensei himself to see what he thinks. I'll let you know if/when I get a response...

-- Jun

aikidoc
02-01-2005, 10:32 AM
Justin:

At one time a large part of the now CAA when it was AANC was oriented towards the Saito style of aikido (Takemusu Aikido). I believe some of those split off. I'm not sure why you are getting the concern about the aikikai unless it is from some of the dojos that decided to go with Hirohito Saito when he split. Doran Sensei is an aikikai shihan. Nadeau is as well. I believe Witt sensei went with H. Saito but I'm not sure about that one. The aikikai umbrella to my understanding includes all of the dojos within CAA. I suppose it is possible they have brought in some unaffiliated dojos which are in the process of becoming aikikai connected. There are some with a strong Iwama background like Pat Hindricks but she stayed with the CAA as far as I know.

Janet Rosen
02-01-2005, 10:50 AM
AFAIK, CAA is Aikikai. There may be some confusion here in folks associating Aikikai in the US with the USAF, but I believe any US organisation with direct tie to Aikikai Hombu would be called Aikikai, whether USAF, ASU, CAA.

Qatana
02-01-2005, 11:09 AM
What Janet said.
I think if Doran Sensei would be so offended at being labelled Aikikai, he probably would not have accepted his promotion to shihan.
Each of the above mentioned organisations are independent of each other, have different styles and syllabi, but they are all under the Aikikai umbrella. But there are teacing differences even within "close family dojos"- the teaching at my sensei's sensei's dojo is somewhat different from the teaching in our home dojo, as are the styles of each member of our teaching staff.
ASU & USAF have entirely different testing structures from each other. Even within the CAA, the individual sensei's may re-structure tests to better suit the candidates- recently we had a first kyu test that was more extensive and more technically challenging than the recommended CAA shodan test, because that was the training level of the individual.
Yes, the three heads of the CAA have decidedly different styles, but I'm sure that Nadeau, Doran & Hendricks Senseis would all agree that CAA is Aikikai.

George S. Ledyard
02-01-2005, 11:12 AM
Jo, your thoughts on CAA v Aikikai are, unfortunately, not universal. The reason I brought the issue up is

1) When I read through the Wiki yesterday, some pages were making the distinction between Aikikai and CAA.
2) Legally speaking CAA is not a member of the Aikikai organisation here in the USA. Separate entities and they don't use the same grading structures so they're not directly equivalent.

There is still somewhat interesting political things going on. I've been corrected in a CAA dojo for calling them Aikikai. They may be registered directly with Hombu dojo, and thus under Aikikai World HQ, but there are a number of people that are quite touchy about that being directly applied to the day to day operations. If these people saw the Aikikai label applied to say Frank Doran Shihan above, they would be more than a little offended.

Wikis can be an interesting place, but they tend to be fraught with a lot of political dangers. This can get really nasty when two competing interests don't agree on terminology or labelling. A rather nasty game of pong develops as each tries to erase the other's changes to it. Better to try to sort out out here the expectations before it arrives on the Wiki.

This is all just political BS dating from the days in which the USAF was the only organization in the United States which was recognized through the Aikikai in Tokyo. When it became apparent that they were in danger of losing control of Aikido here in the States because there were more people in organizations outisde the USAF than in there was a big rapprochment and it was ok for organization like the ASU under Saotome Sensei and the California folks under Doran and Nadeau Senseis to affiliate through Japan directly.

Some folks from the old days still like to pretend that the USAF is the real representative of the Aikikai Hinbu Dojo even though we are all suposed to be one big happy family. This comes up when questions about the International Organization arise because the IAF still will only recognize one organization per country, a totally out of date hold over from the early days. But despite the inability to be in the IAF these organizations are equally associated under the Aikikai and in theory have the same relationship with the current Doshu.

Greg Jennings
02-01-2005, 11:37 AM
I believe Witt sensei went with H. Saito but I'm not sure about that one.
John,

With all respect, you have your splits/facts confused.

Witt Sensei is the head of the Takemusu Aikido Association which, just like (AFAIK), the CAA, is an Aikikai organization.

There is contact information on the respective web sites:
TAA: http://www.takemusu.org/ .
CAA: http://www.ai-ki-do.org

Best regards,

Amassus
02-01-2005, 03:26 PM
Politics...seesh.
Its enough to make a person go batty :)

tedehara
02-01-2005, 05:36 PM
If you really want to know who belongs to what group, just follow the money. Discover who is receiving the cash spent for Aikido credentials. It may be a little cynical, but it's functional and practical.

:drool: drool

Don_Modesto
02-01-2005, 06:02 PM
If you really want to know who belongs to what group, just follow the money. Discover who is receiving the cash spent for Aikido credentials. It may be a little cynical, but it's functional and practical.

:drool: drool

Yes. How much is a SHIDOIN or FUKUSHIDOIN or SHIHAN certificate?

George S. Ledyard
02-01-2005, 09:17 PM
Yes. How much is a SHIDOIN or FUKUSHIDOIN or SHIHAN certificate?
I don't remember paying anything extra on top of my Dan Certificate Fees for my Shidoin Certificate. It was however, quite a bit of time ago. Things could be different now.

Erik
02-01-2005, 09:25 PM
This has kind of been done but nonetheless.

2) Legally speaking CAA is not a member of the Aikikai organisation here in the USA. Separate entities and they don't use the same grading structures so they're not directly equivalent.

Actually, the CAA grading structure is almost identical to Hombu's in at least some schools. The only meaningful changes are that it takes longer and some schools add weapons work. I've never seen a US testing structure that was exactly the same as Hombu's.

I've been corrected in a CAA dojo for calling them Aikikai.

I can see this happening but it would not be anything resembling the norm.

They may be registered directly with Hombu dojo, and thus under Aikikai World HQ, but there are a number of people that are quite touchy about that being directly applied to the day to day operations. If these people saw the Aikikai label applied to say Frank Doran Shihan above, they would be more than a little offended.

The CAA, formerly the AANC, has been directly affiliated with Hombu since it's inception in 1975 or thereabouts. It has a unique history in this sense but it's absolutely Aikikai and it's as much Aikikai as any other organization in the USA.

At one time a large part of the now CAA when it was AANC was oriented towards the Saito style of aikido (Takemusu Aikido).

John, the AANC as a whole was never orientated towards Saito sensei or any Japanese sensei. I understand why you might have that perception but Greg is absolutely correct.

aikidoc
02-01-2005, 10:07 PM
Sorry Greg. I was incorrect. I thought when he split with the AANC he went with Iwama. Apparently not. I realize as a whole the CAA was not oriented towards one sensei-I think Witt sensei was and some others in the bay area including Hendricks sensei were oriented towards Saito.

Greg Jennings
02-02-2005, 05:50 AM
The old AANC was made up of three Divisions. Division 1 was Iwama-oriented and headed by Witt Sensei. Division 2 and 3 were Doran and Nadeau Senseis, respectively.

Witt Sensei had a different vision from the other two and with a goodly number of the senior direct students of Saito Sensei formed the Takemusu Aikido Association. It is Iwama-oriented.

Hendricks Sensei and others Iwama-oriented formed Division 1 and along with Doran and Nadeau Senseis formed the California Aikido Association.

So, the entirety of the TAA and Division 1 of the CAA are Iwama-oriented. By Iwama-oriented, I'm saying that they have adopted the pedagogical method of the late Morihiro Saito.

Both the TAA and the entire CAA are affiliated directly with the Aikikai. That's an organizational issue, not a pedagogical one.

Best regards,

justinc
02-03-2005, 02:21 PM
Man, I go away for a day and suddenly a small comment in another thread gets shifted to a thread of it's own ARGH! :D I really wasn't intending to focus on what is or is not Aikikai. All I wanted to note was that there are inconsistencies in labelling being used on the wiki and why I thought there were inconsistencies. I really don't want to drag this out much more, so I hope this thread peters out shortly.

That said, let me dive back in and make a few comments on points raised.

Can you explain this bit further?

For the record, here's a certificate stating that the CAA is an official organization within the United States under the Aikikai Foundation:


Yes, Note what you said and what I said. It's not under Aikikai USA, it's under Aikikai World HQ. As such, it's completely independent here in the US. Not the same legal structure. That's the difference I was trying to point out. If the wiki is making distinctions of USAF, AAA, etc, but not CAA, this feels inconsistent to me.

The CAA, formerly the AANC, has been directly affiliated with Hombu since it's inception in 1975 or thereabouts. It has a unique history in this sense but it's absolutely Aikikai and it's as much Aikikai as any other organization in the USA.

I'm split on that one. Some of it is yes, a lot of it isn't. The one thing CAA seems to pride itself on is that a Dojo of any sub-style can be a member. It's an organisational structure more than a teaching structure. Different dojos within the CAA have different grading requirements. For example, the "standard" CAA levels is 6 kyu. However, the CAA dojo here in Redmond, WA uses 8 levels. Our dojo, which is currently independent, but looking at joining CAA is 12 kyu and CAA has stated that it is fine to keep that system in place.

Compare that to the schools that label themselves as Aikikai here in the US (I notice Ledyard sensei is in this thread and is one of those schools, as defined by his website). At least from what I have seen in a fairly extensive trawl of aikido websites over the last few months, their testing requirements are identical.

That said, my small experience outside "aikikai" teaching with one of my friends who is in a Ki-society dojo, is that there is awful lot more in common stylistically among the CAA-affilated dojos than there are with the Ki-society style groups. So, that's where I agree with the above points.

I'll ask Doran sensei himself to see what he thinks. I'll let you know if/when I get a response...

I suspect you'll just get a shrug and a chuckle. He's pretty easy going from what I've seen of him (admittedly, only a single weekend-long seminar last week). It is, unfortunately, the other students around him that seem to care more about it than the teacher. As I said, there is still, unfortunately, a lot of politics about who is associated with whom in Aikido. Sad, but reality is still not keeping up with our own ideals.

akiy
02-03-2005, 05:15 PM
Hi Justin,
Yes, Note what you said and what I said. It's not under Aikikai USA, it's under Aikikai World HQ.
What is Aikikai USA? I can't say I've ever heard of such an organization.

Are you talking about the International Aikido Federation?
As such, it's completely independent here in the US. Not the same legal structure.
I'm not too sure how that's different from any other organization under the Aikikai here in the United States. USAF, ASU, AAA, and such are all under "Aikikai World Headquarters."
If the wiki is making distinctions of USAF, AAA, etc, but not CAA, this feels inconsistent to me.
I'm not exactly sure where the inconsistency lies, but please feel free to change the information in the AikiWiki should you think it's inconsistent...
Compare that to the schools that label themselves as Aikikai here in the US (I notice Ledyard sensei is in this thread and is one of those schools, as defined by his website). At least from what I have seen in a fairly extensive trawl of aikido websites over the last few months, their testing requirements are identical.
Testing requirements differ between/amongst Aikikai organizations and even between/amongst dojo in the same organization all the time. Therefore, I don't think that comparing testing requirements to decide whether an aikido dojo is "Aikikai" or not isn't very accurate.

As an example of such differences, here are the testing requirements that I translated from one of the publications I received from Aikikai hombu dojo:

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=17359#post17359

Since you mentioned George's dojo being under Aikikai, you'll note the testing requirements on his site (which are pretty much, but not exactly, what ASU itself requires) are different:

http://www.aikieast.com/testing.htm

Here are the testing requirements for New York Aikikai:

http://www.nyaikikai.com/testreq.htm

Once again, different...

Hope that clarifies some,

-- Jun