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Kami
04-18-2001, 02:47 AM
Ladies and Gentlemen,
The Kami Hall of Fame presents...
The Non-Japanese High-Ranking List of Living Yudansha!
(Last Update).
Corrections, additions, etc...are welcome!
##################################

Karl Geis - Fugakukai, Texas (USA), 10th Dan
Thamby Rajah - Shudokan, Malaysia, 9th Dan
Shinichi Suzuki – Ki-Aikido, Hawaii(USA), 8th Dan
Takashi Nonaka – Ki-Aikido, Hawaii(USA), 8th Dan
Harry Eto - Ki-Aikido, Hawaii (USA), 8th Dan
Alain Floquet – Yoseikan, France, 8th Dan
Patrick Auge - Yoseikan, California(USA), 8th Dan
Henry Copeland - Fugakukai, Alabama(USA), 8th Dan
W.W. "Mac" McNease - Fugakukai, Texas(USA), 8th Dan
Georges Stobbaerts – Butokukai, Portugal, 8th Dan
Amos Parker – Yoshinkai, USA, 8th Dan
Michel Soulenq - Aikikai, France, 7th Dan
Christian Tissier – Aikikai, France, 7th Dan
Gerard Blaize – Aikikai, France, 7th Dan
Robert Kubo – Aikikai, Hawaii(USA), 7th Dan
Donald Moriyama - Ki-Aikido, Hawaii(USA), 7th Dan
Christopher Curtis – Ki-Aikido, Hawaii(USA), 7th Dan
Lee Ah Loi - Tomiki, England, 7th Dan (JAA)
John Waite – Tomiki/England, 7th JAA/BAA, 5th BJA
Brian Eustace – Tomiki/England, 7th Dan BAA (He no longer participates in that organization) (*)
Robert Forrest-West – Tomiki/England, 7th Dan BAA
William Lawrence – Tomiki/England, 7th Dan BAA
Erhard Altenbrandt, DAB, Germany, 7th Dan
Rolf Brand, DAB, Germany, 7th Dan
Gerhardt Walter, Aikikai, Germany, 7th Dan
Kevin Blok, World Kobudo Federation(Aikido Section), 7th Dan
Giampietro Savegnago, Aikikai(?), Italy, 7th Dan
John Allen - Fugakukai, W. Virginia(USA), 7th Dan
Robert Aoyagi - Aikikai, Hawaii(USA), 7th Dan
Charles Caldwell - Fugakukai, Colorado(USA), 7th Dan
Stewart Chan - Seidokan, California(USA), 7th Dan
Chuck Clark - Jiyushinkai, Arizona(USA), 7th Dan
Frank Doran - Aikikai, California(USA), 7th Dan
Richard Hirao - Aikikai, Hawaii(USA), 7th Dan
Rianard Jackson - Fugakukai, Texas(USA), 7th Dan
Tim Joe - Fugakukai, Texas(USA), 7th Dan
Harvey Konigsberg – Aikikai, (USA), 7th Dan
Robert Nadeau - Aikikai, California(USA), 7th Dan
Clif Norgaard - Fugakukai, Arkansas(USA), 7th Dan
Steven Seagal - Aikikai, California(USA), 7th Dan
William Witt - Aikikai, California(USA), 7th dan
Harry Wright - Fugakukai, Alabama(USA), 7th Dan
#########################################

(*) The BAA informed that Mr. Brian Eustace is involved with another art – Taiho Jutsu - and is no longer a participant in Tomiki Aikido activities. We have included him, however, since his name and ranking were recognized by that organization.

##################################

P.S. It should be noted that :
a) this list is not intended to signify that ranks are all important;
b) it makes no comparisons between ranks in different organizations. The Fugakukai has the same number of ranks as in Judo (10); Tomiki Style goes only until 8th Dan; and so on;
c) According to my personal tastes there are some 8th Dan that I may consider equivalent of another 4th or 5th Dan and there is at least one 3rd Dan which I consider very much worthy of a 6th Dan. Well, so's life...
Good morning to all

Matt Banks
04-18-2001, 03:11 AM
Kami your Yamantaka....my god.


As I said its a grand list.




Matt

Kami
04-18-2001, 06:02 AM
Originally posted by Matt Banks
Kami your Yamantaka....my god.
As I said its a grand list.
Matt

YAMANTAKA : :O Now, Now...Let's not exagerate things...
By the way, I heard you are going to Malaysia, to train with the second name in the list. When you get back, be sure you tell us about your adventures!
Your God :p

giriasis
04-18-2001, 01:32 PM
Great list.

I find it interesting, from what I could tell, that these are all men. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Just out of curiosity, who are our highest-ranking non-japanese women? From looking at the list, I take it they will be 6th dan and below.

Anne Marie

lt-rentaroo
04-18-2001, 02:04 PM
Hello,

Anne Marie, are you one of the high ranking women Aikido Instructors that was not included in the "list"?

What about Sensei Mary Heiney (sp)? I thought Sensei Heiney was ranked 5th or 6th Dan. Of course, I could be way off on this. Have a good day!

akiy
04-18-2001, 03:28 PM
Originally posted by lt-rentaroo
What about Sensei Mary Heiney (sp)? I thought Sensei Heiney was ranked 5th or 6th Dan.
Heiny sensei is, indeed, 6th dan.

Lee Ah Loi sensei who is mentioned on Ubaldo's list is 7th dan and is a woman.

Other high ranking female aikido people who come readily to mind include Lorraine DiAnne sensei (6th dan, Westside Aikido (http://westsideaikido.home.att.net)), Pat Hendricks sensei (6th dan, Aikido of San Leandro (http://www.aikido-sanleandro.com)), Bernice Tom sensei (6th dan, Sunset Cliffs Aikido (http://www-cse.ucsd.edu/users/paloma/Aikido/SSC/)), Patty Saotome sensei (6th dan, ASU (http://www.asu.org)), Wendy Whited sensei (6th dan, Inaka Dojo (http://www.inakadojo.org)), Linday Holiday sensei (5th dan, North Bay Aikido (http://www.northbayaikido.org)), Yoko Okamoto (5th dan, Portland Aikikai (http://home.europa.com/~okamoto/)), Wendy Palmer sensei (5th dan, Aikido of Tamalpais (http://www.tam-aikido.org)), Danielle Evans sensei (5th dan, Aikido of Monterey (http://www.aikidomonterey.com/)), and Kayla Feder sensei (5th dan, Aikido of Berkeley (http://www.aikidoofberkeley.com)).

There are plenty of other 5th dan and higher female aikido folks around, of course. The above were the names of people who came readily into my mind...

-- Jun

Kami
04-18-2001, 03:58 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by akiy
[B]
Lee Ah Loi sensei who is mentioned on Ubaldo's list is 7th dan and is a woman.

KAMI : Hello, Jun! You've almost give us a complete list of high-ranking women in Aikido.
There's a reason only Lee Ah Loi is present : my list begins with 7th Dan and for a good reason : I wouldn't really dare to tackle a list beginning, say, at 5th Dan. The number would be enormous. Note that Jun mentioned just american ladies. while my list included all other countries... But it should be mentioned that, in her organization (Tomiki Aikido), the highest grade is 8th Dan and so Lee Sensei would be almost a 9th Dan in another organization that ranked until 10th Dan.
From my knowledge, there is no other woman ranked 7th Dan.
Best

TAC One
04-19-2001, 03:32 AM
Hi. This is my first post on AikiWeb.
I live in Italy.

Savegnago does not belong to Aikikai Italia.
He seem to be 7th dan. Anyway someone some time ago told on the usenet that he is 8th.
The question is... who promoted him 8th (or 7th...?)?

Bye :)

Kami
04-19-2001, 05:03 AM
Originally posted by TAC One
Hi. This is my first post on AikiWeb.
I live in Italy.
Savegnago does not belong to Aikikai Italia.
He seem to be 7th dan. Anyway someone some time ago told on the usenet that he is 8th.
The question is... who promoted him 8th (or 7th...?)?
Bye :)

KAMI : Thank you, TAC One, for your cooperation. As you may note, Savegnago Sensei was the only one with a question mark (?) besides his name, since I had some doubts in his case. He was a student of Hirokazu Kobayashi Sensei, from the Aikikai but I had some doubts if he was still in that organization.
As you live in Italy, could you give me some URL with information about him? Per favore?
Ciao

TAC One
04-19-2001, 08:56 AM
Originally posted by Kami

some doubts in his case. He was a student of Hirokazu Kobayashi Sensei, from the Aikikai but I had some doubts if he was still in that organization.
As you live in Italy, could you give me some URL with information about him? Per favore?
Ciao


In Italy some students of H. Kobayashi got 8th or 9th dan.
Their rankings are not recognized by Aikikai I guess.:D
I guess they got them only after Sensei's death.
By the way:
www.aikikai.it ---> Italian Aikikai
www.aikido.it ---> provides some info on Savegnago.

Ciao

giriasis
04-19-2001, 02:41 PM
Originally posted by lt-rentaroo
Hello,

Anne Marie, are you one of the high ranking women Aikido Instructors that was not included in the "list"?


Not unless 5th kyu has become a high rank within the past year and a half. ;) So No, I'm HARDLY a high ranking anything in aikido. Do I have to be a high rank to ask about the list?

But, I train with a 5th dan, Penny Bernath, Aikikai. I was just curious to see who the "high-ranking" women were. As a women, it is nice to have high ranking role models to look up to.

From my understanding is that at each rank down the numbers grow exponentially. So we have one 7th dan and a few 6th dan females, but others have indicated that the numbers get much larger at 5th dan. But among the men the numbers get much larger at 6th dan.

I could identify most of the names on the list except Lee Ah Loi. Thanks for the clarification.

Take care,
Anne Marie

Kami
04-19-2001, 03:02 PM
Originally posted by giriasis
[So we have one 7th dan and a few 6th dan females, but others have indicated that the numbers get much larger at 5th dan. But among the men the numbers get much larger at 6th dan.
Take care,
Anne Marie [/B]

KAMI : You're right. We have (as far as I know) just one 7th Dan woman aikidoka in the whole word and very few 6th Dan.
But we should remember that the number of male aikidoka far exceeds that of women aikidoka. That might be one of the reasons.
Best regards and good keiko

giriasis
04-19-2001, 03:17 PM
Originally posted by Kami

But we should remember that the number of male aikidoka far exceeds that of women aikidoka. That might be one of the reasons.
Best regards and good keiko


Of course that is the reason. I wasn't really wanting to make any other assertions about the reasons. I just wanted to know "who" because there are fewer women involved in aikido than men, and I would like to see how far they have progressed in their training.

I'm looking for inspiration.

For example, when I was about 9 years old I started TKD but I didn't join until I saw a female black belt. I saw that women could do martial arts. Even at my 31 years of age, I still look up to women who have made a name for themselves in a male-dominated world -- aikido or otherwise.

Later,
Anne Marie

lt-rentaroo
04-19-2001, 03:29 PM
Hello,

Anne Marie - No, you don't need to be a high ranking woman Aikido Instructor to inquire about the "list". I apologize if I implied anything of the sort in my post :rolleyes:

Personally, I'm suprised that there are not more high ranking women in Aikido. The whole nature of Aikido (use less of your own energy, keep weight underside, etc.) seems geared more toward women (just like Wing Chun Kung Fu). Now, don't get all defensive here. I'm not saying that women are somehow less physically capable than men or more passive or anything of the sort. What I am saying is that women have a natural ability to maintain there balance better and keep their weight underside due to their anatomy. If you take a woman and a man of equal height and build, the woman will have a lower center of gravity due to her anatomy. Because of this simple fact, women are able to keep their weight underside much easier than men. This can easily be seen by a simple demonstration (I'll spare everyone the description of the demonstration, so just trust me).

I've had the opportunity to train with many different women Aikido Instructors and students and can honestly say that the women are generally able to perform the techniques more fluidly than the men. My wife for example has an incredibly fluid Shihonage (she doesn't know this, but I wish mine was as graceful as hers).

Of course, all this could be coming from the fact that I just had my Wisdom Teeth removed and the drugs have not worn off yet - hey, where's my Jello?
Have a good day!

Erik
04-19-2001, 08:58 PM
I took a look at the home page of Karl Geis and happened to find the Fugakukai testing requirements. Mighty fast ride up that particular promotional ladder.

lt-rentaroo
04-19-2001, 09:18 PM
Hello,

Erik - I noticed the same thing when I visited the Fugukukai web page. I guess if you develop your own style of Aikido and then get promoted to 10th Dan by other members of the same organization, then you can develop your own testing criteria and the time it takes to achieve certain ranks.

Now, the above statement was in no way meant to be disrespectful to Sensei Geis or any dojo that are affiliated with the Fugukukai organization. Throughout the history of Aikido, very similar things have happened (such as with Koichi Tohei and Ki Society, or Kenji Tomiki and the founding of Tomiki Aikido). It is my understanding that Sensei Geis is a very accomplished martial artist and instructor.

What was meant by the statement is that I think one year is a pretty short time to earn Shodan (not that what I think of another organization's policies means anything at all). Of course I've read this is common in many dojo, so who am I to judge? Have a good Day!

Erik
04-19-2001, 10:38 PM
Let me second what was just said by Louis before I get myself in more trouble than I usually do.

Anyways, if I remember correctly, in the book Angry White Pajamas a couple of Twigger's friends got their shodan in under 2 years and they didn't even have to go through the hard core stuff. A friend of mine got his shodan in kyudo (who knew they had rank) in a year while he was in Japan.

Maybe the Fugakukai have it right and we've got it backwards.

Kami
04-20-2001, 04:10 AM
Originally posted by Erik

Maybe the Fugakukai have it right and we've got it backwards.

KAMI : Louis and Erik
I have contacted Karl Geis Sensei and asked him to comment about your doubts. As soon as I get his answer, I'll inform the Forum.
By the way, Geis was 6th Dan(bestowed on him by Tomiki Sensei himself) when he left the Tomiki Aikido Organization. It took him 20 years in his own organization (a reasonable time) to be promoted to 10th Dan. The same thing happened, more or less, to Jigoro Kano of Judo fame...
And yes, criteria are different in different organizations and I do not belong to Geis Sensei's Fugakukai...
Best

JJF
04-20-2001, 05:04 AM
I guess we're back to the old 'how long to become shodan' discussion here. After what I have heard it is a general trend that westeners think somewhat more of Shodan than what is usual in Japan. Keeping in mind that Shodan is 'first step' it is just an indication that the student has proven an interest and can be accepted as a serious student of the art. In the west on the other hand, Shodan is often associate with some sort of 'masterlevel'. Therefore in Japan it is not uncommon to reach shodan in a couple of years. In Europe as much as seven years can be a common timeframe. Perhaps we should lower the demands for a shodan a bit - however it is better to be a good mudansha than a bad yudansha.
BTW: Erik! it's hard to compare such an art as kyudo or iaido with Aikido or Karate. I can not explain in detail what the difference is but i believe they have a more introvert nature and a different focus which again implies a difference in the qualities upon which gradings are based. One more thing: It might be, that kyudo gradings can be 'speeded up' a bit for westernes practicing for a while in Japan in order to inspire the students to continue practicing when they come home, and to give them a sign of 'quality' making it easier for them to start teaching in theire home country.
Sorry about the length of this post. Hope somebody finds it interesting :).

PeterR
04-20-2001, 07:32 AM
In Japan there are ofter parallel promotional systems.

For example;

In the Japan Aikido Association University students that have trained from the beginning of their studies promote to Shodan at the end of their second year so they have the BB in their last. A few get promoted to Nidan at the end of their third. In some Universities training is required every day. At Honbu on the other hand Shodan usually takes twice as long and even longer if your attendence is only once or twice a week. It took me three years at Honbu even though I already had one year in the University clubs.

I did mention it in on another forum but will do so again. Kenji Tomiki did form his own organization and establish his grading criteria but he never took rank beyond what his teacher Ueshiba gave him. Kano never took rank but once he died he was awarded 12 Dan as sort of an upper limit.

lt-rentaroo
04-20-2001, 08:30 AM
Hello,

I agree that the rank of Shodan is often earned earlier in Japanese Dojo than in dojo located in the United States or Europe. I also agree that in the United States and Europe, the rank of Shodan is often looked upon as rank that denotes expertise or "mastery" in an art. All one must do to understand this is to strike up a conversation with someone (outside the realm of martial arts) and talk about your art and tell them that you are a black belt. I'll bet that the person with whom you are conversing will assume that you are some great martial arts master because you are a black belt. I believe a lot of this thinking has to do with the media / movie interpretations of martial arts and those who study them.

It has been said by someone on this forum before that if you compare a newly ranked Shodan from Japan (an individual who has earned their Shodan in say, about a year) with someone from the United States or Europe (an individual who has earned their Shodan in say, about 5 years); the newly ranked Shodan from the United States or Europe will most likely have better form and function of technique. I have no doubt to this having some validity. I've had the opportunity to train with both types of individuals and my claim (and the same claim by others) has held true.

At the same time though, it has been said that at the higher Dan levels, the Japanese students seem to have better form and function of technique than those students in the United States and Europe. The reason for this is probably a stronger dedication to the art by the Japanese students. It seems that since many people in the United States and Europe equate a Shodan or first degree black belt with expertise or mastery, they feel as though there is not as much to learn after that rank is achieved and hence, do not continue on the path to greater technique and wisdom.

Of course, this is all my own opinion and the forum readers must take it for what it's worth. Let me know what you think about what I've written. Have a good Day!

Kami
04-20-2001, 08:56 AM
Originally posted by PeterR
I did mention it in on another forum but will do so again. Kenji Tomiki did form his own organization and establish his grading criteria but he never took rank beyond what his teacher Ueshiba gave him. Kano never took rank but once he died he was awarded 12 Dan as sort of an upper limit.
[/B]

KAMI : Hello, Peter! Glad to see you again!
I'm not quite sure if Kano Sensei NEVER took rank in his life (I think I read somewhere that he did and also established that if any of his students did reach his grade, he should be promoted to a further grade. Well, my memory isn't what it was earlier...)
Again, people's attitudes are their own and do not establish criteria, save if you agree with them.
Tomiki decided not to be graded above his given dan but Mochizuki Minoru and Shioda Gozo had no such qualms (both were graded 10th Dan by the Nihon Kokusai Budoin/IMAF).
To each his own. Who am I to judge them on this point?
Best regards and good keiko

Kami
04-20-2001, 09:02 AM
Karl Geis Sensei asked me to post this e-mail about his position on Fugakukai and his grading rank.
Geis Sensei also asked me to say that, unfortunately, he has no time to acompany this forum's debates. So, if anyone, wants further answers from him, they're welcome to send his questions to his new e-mail :
karl@kegkeg.com
Best regards
Ubaldo

######################################

"Dear Mr Alcantara

I will try to answer your questions, to the best of my knowledge.
Each rank that I have received was somebody else’s idea and not mine. Frankly, I feel that once anyone reaches the rank of 6th dan, their knowledge and opinions about technical ideas is as good as anyone else. All rank above that is in recognition of other things.
People get their shorts all twisted up about rank when the problem is simple. If any organization wants to remain viable and keep backbiting and politics to a minimum, people who provide leadership and invest teaching time need to be kept ahead of the student body, in order to keep the organizational structure
pyramidal. Jigoro Kano was promoted to 12th dan so that others could be promoted to 10th, 9th etc.
and as he postulated the top rank will rise as the pyramid gets taller etc. Otherwise, the following happens :
the mature organization begins to look like a mushroom supported on a thin stem set in a large base.
If the rank structure is stopped at 7th dan, then people who have been around a long time and have achieved the rank of 6th dan are stuck. The Godans don't do much better because once a cap is put on rank and the rank becomes a high one, 3rd dans can't be promoted to 4th dan until there is room, so the time in grade for a sandan becomes the time in grad for yondan . The same applies to the yondan trying to make godan so now the yondan's time in grade for promotion is really the time in grade of the godan waiting for rokudan. etc. The real injustice, however, is to the Sandan who often finds that in reality his time in grade is that of a godan etc. We have all seen organizations where the time in grade and the requirements for Shodan becomes longer and more technical requirements are added etc.
Suddenly, you have a large cadre of shodans and nidans; a very thin column of sandan; and a very large mushroom of waiting polititians.
Although I never asked or expected a promotion, I was probably promoted by my organization because
I tried my best to see that people got what they deserved and that the pyramid structure was kept stable.
Rank has never been an important issue with me. I have found that there are many people who like to dress the part and talk the part of the hanshi. There are many who are concert teachers (people who teach by showing how good they are, under carefully scripted conditions).
There are many who find some imagined power in criticizing and condemning others. There are very few who can really impart wisdom along with technical expertise.The only goal that I have in Aikido is to become more capable every day in the art of imparting true self confidence into my aikido family. By the way in my organization and in my own school, I am known as Karl, not sensei or shihan or hanshi. People stay in our organization because treatment is fair and they were promoted to the rank they deserved and the pyramid of knowledge grew to a solid monolith of self confidence, knowledge and power. In my opinion it is the only fair and equitable way to truly develop a really powerful body of knowledge that reaches critical mass and, as an idea, cannot be destroyed because it is self sustaining. How are we going to tell someone who can prove he is a sixth dan that he is a sixth dan ? That is silly!
I tell my students that it takes 10 yrs to make sixth dan but it takes 20 more to become a really confident and competent teacher and giver of self confidence.
My people stay in the system for years; my people learn; and my people are confident and capable when doing real aikido, rising and being derived from the inner spirit. We have proven our system works.
When my students began to achieve ranks very close to mine they became uncomfortable and elevated me.
By the way, in our organization, the President (myself) cannot sit on a promotion board nor can he grant any rank. Whatsoever, a common club instructor has more promotion power than I have. A yondan can promote to shodan without review. I cannot. In my own dojo, my leaders must recommend students for promotion, form a board and make the promotion. I am then advised that a board has been held and the results of that board. I then issue a diploma. If you come to one of my seminars you will find that on the fourth day at two oclock in the afternoon, when the promotion board holds rank promotion demonstrations, I am nowhere to be found. I am not allowed to be in the room during demonstrations or deliberations.
Therfore I go to the movies.
Do I think my promotion was correct ? In the best interest of our organizational structure , yes.
The only ranks that have ever been important to me are my yondan in Judo, achieved in the kodokan, which gave me teaching rank in japan and my 6th dan from Tomiki Sensei at Waseda university. I think you will agree that this is a fairly rare combination. That is something people should be jealous of.
The JAA system is lopsided because most of the practitioners are of college age and they stop practicing after college and there are really a very few old boys who continue to practice and achieve higher grade than sandan.
Mr. tomiki's 8th dan was very sufficient to provide room for the pyramidal structure to grow uninhibited. You will probably find fewer than a 100 high rank players still in action in the JAA, the college coaches etc.
We, on the other hand, keep more than a thousand active members with about 500 active black belts trying to make a viable teaching pyramid out of that. Our people are usually over the age of 30 and
our average number of years in active Aikido will as a guess be about 6 or seven years with all of the low ranks. Our people are established and aikido is not a college thing but a way of life and a permanent part of their life.
I can understand why our promotion board chose to elevate my rank. It was done to keep harmony.
Mr. Alcantara, we will be happy to pay your air fare (economy and reasonable) to our seminar
and put you up and feed you for 6 days, if you will come to our summer seminar june 18-22, here at my dojo in Houston. That way you can see for yourself.
We do not make this offer to many people because they come with impure motives and hidden agenda. You however appear to be a fairminded and honest man so, come and experience our way of Aikido.
Perhaps then you can reach a comfortable place from which to answer these questions for yourself without my words.
I must stop as I have to rise at 5oclock tomorrow to travel to Oklahoma for a seminar. Thank you for your interest. Any questions that you feel are not answered please repeat them so i don't have so many to think about.
warmest regards
karl e. geis
P.S. Mr. Alcantara,
I failed to make it clear that in the case of my promotion, my
signature does not appear on the paper.
The testamentary to 10th dan was signed by 20 +- of the attending
members of the board of directors and the promotion board of the
organization.
I would also like to add that none of the people who are making a big
thing about my rank are in our organization nor have they spent 30 yrs building a system and organization, as I have, consistent with the environment they are living
in. Further none of these so called experts have ever investigated us
or what we do. Why? I'll tell you : because our reputation has been
kept above reproach by our membership.
Further, since the Majority of our high ranks and old timers are and
were high ranked judoka to begin with, the so called experts couldn't
muscle us and that reputation kept them away and allowed us to develop
a truly soft and dynamic self confidence giving art that we are proud
of. The method we use is called The Kihara method and is unique to
Aikido and the martial arts and takes Aikido to another level.

Come see what we do

warmest regards
Karl E. Geis

######################################

lt-rentaroo
04-20-2001, 10:15 AM
Hello again,

Hmmm, well what Sensei Geis writes makes some sense in an organizational point of view. My question though is as follows. Should people be promoted to a higher rank only because they have spent a specified number of hours or months training, or should they be promoted to a higher rank because they have successfully demonstrated knowledge of the art and its techniques? Personally, I think being able to successfully demonstrate a knowledge of the art and its techniques comes with dedicated training and that being promoted based only on "time in grade" so to speak can lead to the promotion of students who are not able to successfully demonstrate a knowledge of the art or its techniques. This will inevitably lead to poor instructors.

Well as I said, Sensei Geis is an accomplished martial artist and instructor and I've got no qualms about his rank or how he choses to run his organization. Sensei Geis has been very successful and I wish him continued success.

Ubaldo - Sounds like a pretty good offer, I'd go for it.

Have a good Day!

Jim23
04-20-2001, 10:42 AM
Originally posted by lt-rentaroo
Should people be promoted to a higher rank only because they have spent a specified number of hours or months training ... that being promoted based only on "time in grade" so to speak can lead to the promotion of students who are not able to successfully demonstrate a knowledge of the art or its techniques.

Louis,

Although it shouldn't happen, it will happen anyway. Just go to most of the bigger dojos -- that's why they have so many students. The dollar takes supremacy over technique.

Jim23

Erik
04-20-2001, 11:56 AM
Originally posted by JJF
One more thing: It might be, that kyudo gradings can be 'speeded up' a bit for westernes practicing for a while in Japan in order to inspire the students to continue practicing when they come home, and to give them a sign of 'quality' making it easier for them to start teaching in their home country.

I think it's just sped up in general, or, we're slowed down and held back. I've heard rumors that the promotional requirements will be slimmed down in the near future, at least in the Aikikai world that I'm a part of. Trying to keep pace with Japan as I heard it described. My source was good, but the detail I got wasn't so I don't have much to add on that.

Ubaldo, that was a very interesting email. Thank you for posting it here.

There were a couple of things I did like about the site and the email. He calls himself Karl and the way he describes dojo etiquette (on his site) had a perspective that I could appreciate. Interesting guy.

lt-rentaroo
04-20-2001, 12:17 PM
Jim, good to hear from you.

I agree with what you write, the larger dojo do seem to promote based on "time in grade" more so than on quality of technique or knowledge of the art. I've met folks who have trained at larger dojo and have achieved significant rank that do not understand some of the most basic principles. Of course, I've witnessed the same from small dojo as well. I guess it all depends on the teacher.

I suppose the almighty dollar will always reign supreme, it's a real shame. I was fortunate enough to have joined a dojo that didn't care about the money. I remember a six month period of time while I was in college when I was unable to pay my dojo tuition. My Sensei said don't worry about it, I'll just toss your around more than the others. It seemed like a an OK deal to me, and it's one that I use now that I'm teaching (the understanding part, not the throwing part). The money doesnt' matter to me, what matters is watching the students learn a new technique and being able to use that technique under less than happy situations. Well, I'll get off my soapbox now. Have a good day!

Kami
04-20-2001, 03:35 PM
Originally posted by lt-rentaroo
My question though is as follows. Should people be promoted to a higher rank only because they have spent a specified number of hours or months training, or should they be promoted to a higher rank because they have successfully demonstrated knowledge of the art and its techniques?

KAMI : You're right...until a given dan. Most organizations test for grading until 3rd or 4th dan. From then on, ranking is more concerned with services given to the art and time spent on the art than technical expertise testing. As Geis Sensei says, at 6th Dan, you are tested and aproved. All dan rankings from them on are given for other reasons...

Ubaldo - Sounds like a pretty good offer, I'd go for it.

KAMI : It is, isn't it? :rolleyes:

Have a good Day!

KAMI : You too!

Jim23
04-21-2001, 11:22 AM
Originally posted by lt-rentaroo
I was fortunate enough to have joined a dojo that didn't care about the money. I remember a six month period of time while I was in college when I was unable to pay my dojo tuition. My Sensei said don't worry about it, I'll just toss your around more than the others.

It's a pity more dojos aren't like that. I wish Greg's dojo would adopt that type of attitude, but somehow I don't think they will change their fee policy for anyone, regardless of their financian situation. Talk about inflexible.;)

Jim23

lt-rentaroo
04-21-2001, 12:12 PM
Jim,

Are you referring to Mr. Greg Jenning's dojo located in the fine southern city of Montgomery, Alabama? I agree, they should be more flexible with their payment options, not everyone can afford to train at a dojo that is 100% free :D I had the wonderful opportunity to train with them while I was in Montgomery, they are the real deal. I'm really suprised that they don't have people knocking down the doors to get in. OK, enough shameless plugs for Capital City Aikido in Montgomery, Alabama.

Sorry Jun :rolleyes:

Jim23
04-21-2001, 01:14 PM
Originally posted by lt-rentaroo
I'm really suprised that they don't have people knocking down the doors to get in.

Louis,

Maybe it's because Greg throws people around a lot or that you first have to get past Greg to train.

AlAbamA, Hmmmm. :p

No need to apologize about the plug -- it's not a commercial dojo (what's a 15% referral fee of nothing?).:)

Jim23

Kami
04-24-2001, 03:37 AM
Dear all,

Since some people have questioned the name of Karl Geis in my list of high-ranking non-japanese yudansha (and many know nothing about him), perhaps it will be interesting to read this text :
http://www.karlgeis.com/origin.htm
There's a story of the founding of the Fugakukai and its links to Tomiki Aikido (Shodokan).
Good read

andrew
04-24-2001, 03:45 AM
Originally posted by Kami

Dear all,

Since some people have questioned the name of Karl Geis in my list of high-ranking non-japanese yudansha (and many know nothing about him), perhaps it will be interesting to read this text :



Em... didn't his story get explained within this thread?

andrew

Kami
04-24-2001, 01:22 PM
Originally posted by andrew
Em... didn't his story get explained within this thread?
andrew

KAMI : I don't think so. His name and his rank has been discussed but I don't think his story was.
Best

Fausto
05-12-2001, 03:57 PM
Hi all!!, this is my first time in this forum hehe :D

Just want to say that there are no 8th or 9th Dan of Hirokazu Kobayashi Sensei in italy, there are just two 7th Dans which are Savegnago Sensei and Suriano Sensei (i met them two months ago :D it was AMAZING!!).

Kami the URL you wanted: www.aikido.it
go to "chi siamo" and you'll find a biography of H. Kobayashi and Savegano Sensei.

Arrivederci :cool:

Kami
05-13-2001, 07:00 AM
Originally posted by Fausto
Hi all!
Just want to say that there are no 8th or 9th Dan of Hirokazu Kobayashi Sensei in italy, there are just two 7th Dans which are Savegnago Sensei and Suriano Sensei (i met them two months ago :D it was AMAZING!!).
Kami the URL you wanted: www.aikido.it
go to "chi siamo" and you'll find a biography of H. Kobayashi and Savegano Sensei.
Arrivederci :cool:

KAMI : Grazie, Fausto!
I already knew that URL but,as you may observe, it gives no information on Savegnago Sensei's ranking nor from what organization it does come from.
Since you have met them recently, could you be so kind to give me contact with them and more information on Suriano Sensei? There's an e-mail in the URL you sent but it does not answer.
Any help would be very welcome.
Best regards and good keiko

Fausto
05-13-2001, 09:14 AM
Originally posted by Kami


KAMI : Grazie, Fausto!
I already knew that URL but,as you may observe, it gives no information on Savegnago Sensei's ranking nor from what organization it does come from.
Since you have met them recently, could you be so kind to give me contact with them and more information on Suriano Sensei? There's an e-mail in the URL you sent but it does not answer.
Any help would be very welcome.
Best regards and good keiko




Hi there!.
Even if in that URL does not say wich Dan is Savegnago Sensei (thing that i doubt hehe but everything is possible :D) i can tell you for sure that he's a 7th Dan and also Suriano Sensei is a 7th Dan.

About the organization they (and me too hehe) belong it's not very sure cuz here's the problem: with the premature death of H. Kobayashi Sensei the head-master in the Osaka dojo and for the Bu Iku Kai organization is Kimura Sensei 8th Dan but lately the Doshu Moriteru Ueshiba talked with Kimura Sensei and they made an agreement wich is that the Bu Iku Kai is now part of Aikikai but for example here in italy we (Bu Iku Kai style practitioners) don't belong to the aikikai, we don't have any certification of the Italian Aikikai therefore is not clear if we are aikikai or not but i'll do a little research ok and i'll tell you which are the conclusions.
I'll see what i can do to put you in contact with Savegnago Sensei, maybe i'll have the chance to talk with him this month cuz maybe his coming to our dojo (I HOPE HE DOES!! :d), and i can tell you that Suriano Sensei teaches in South Italy, in Catania i'll see what i can do to give you as much information about him as i can.

Goog keiko and Arrivederci!!! :cool:

PeterR
05-13-2001, 10:13 AM
That's interesting. Kobayahi H. was on eof the most senior Aikikai Shihan. How can his students not be Aikikai?

Kami
05-13-2001, 11:36 AM
Originally posted by PeterR
That's interesting. Kobayahi H. was on eof the most senior Aikikai Shihan. How can his students not be Aikikai?

KAMI : I'll try to clarify this and other points when I make contact with Savegnago Sensei. I seem to remember someone told me that Kobayashi Sensei didn't register his students' rank with the Aikikai and after his death things got a bit confused. That's why I would like very much if Fausto could put me in contact with Savegnago Sensei.
Best

Fausto
05-13-2001, 03:09 PM
Kami untill i contact Savegnago Sensei you can go here: http://www.aikido.it/Maestri/SavegnaG.htm

I hope to clarify this enigma soon! hehe :D

Arrivederci :cool:

Kami
05-16-2001, 01:07 PM
Ladies and Gentlemen,
This is our up-date to our List (thanks to the help afforded by many friends) :

Karl Geis - Fugakukai, Texas (USA), 10th Dan
Thamby Rajah - Shudokan, Malaysia, 9th Dan
Shinichi Suzuki – Ki-Aikido, Hawaii(USA), 8th Dan
Takashi Nonaka – Ki-Aikido, Hawaii(USA), 8th Dan
Harry Eto - Ki-Aikido, Hawaii (USA), 8th Dan
Alain Floquet – Yoseikan, France, 8th Dan
Henry Copeland - Fugakukai, Alabama(USA), 8th Dan
Thomas H.Makiyama - Keijutsukai, Japan, 8th Dan (Born in Hawaii)
Georges Stobbaerts – Butokukai, Portugal, 8th Dan
Amos Parker – Yoshinkai, USA, 8th Dan
Walther von Krenner - USMAA, USA, 8th Dan
Lou Periello - USMAA, USA, 8th Dan/Aikikai 5th Dan

Patrick Auge - Yoseikan, California(USA), 7th Dan
Michel Soulenq - Aikikai, France, 7th Dan
Christian Tissier – Aikikai, France, 7th Dan
Gerard Blaize – Aikikai, France, 7th Dan
Robert Kubo – Aikikai, Hawaii(USA), 7th Dan
Donald Moriyama - Aikikai, Hawaii(USA), 7th Dan
Christopher Curtis – Ki-Aikido, Hawaii(USA), 7th Dan
Lee Ah Loi - Tomiki, England, 7th Dan (JAA)
John Waite – Tomiki/England, 7th JAA/BAA, 5th BJA
Brian Eustace – Tomiki/England, 7th Dan BAA (Nใo ้ mais membro da organiza็ใo) (*)
Robert Forrest-West – Tomiki/England, 7th Dan BAA
William Lawrence – Tomiki/England, 7th Dan BAA
Erhard Altenbrandt, DAB, Germany, 7th Dan
Rolf Brand, DAB, Germany, 7th Dan
Gerhardt Walter, Aikikai (?), Germany, 7th Dan
Kevin Blok, World Kobudo Federation(Aikido Section), 7th Dan
Giampietro Savegnago, Aikikai(?), Italy, 7th Dan
John Allen - Fugakukai, W. Virginia(USA), 7th Dan
Robert Aoyagi - Aikikai, Hawaii(USA), 7th Dan
Charles Caldwell - Fugakukai, Colorado(USA), 7th Dan
Stewart Chan - Seidokan, California(USA), 7th Dan
Chuck Clark - Jiyushinkai, Arizona(USA), 7th Dan
Frank Doran - Aikikai, California(USA), 7th Dan
Richard Hirao - Aikikai, Hawaii(USA), 7th Dan
Rianard Jackson - Fugakukai, Texas(USA), 7th Dan
Tim Joe - Fugakukai, Texas(USA), 7th Dan
Harvey Konigsberg – Aikikai,NY(USA), 7th Dan
Robert Nadeau - Aikikai, California(USA), 7th Dan
Clif Norgaard - Fugakukai, Arkansas(USA), 7th Dan
Steven Seagal - Aikikai, California(USA), 7th Dan
William Witt - Aikikai, California(USA), 7th dan
Harry Wright - Fugakukai, Alabama(USA), 7th Dan
#########################################
(1) Some changes were : W.W.McNeese was retired from the list, since he passed away, according to information supplied by Karl E. Geis Sensei;
(2) Patrick Aug้ Sensei was incorrectly posted as an 8th Dan. One of his students pointed out that he is a 7th Dan. The information has been double-checked;
(3) More research should be done and more help is wanted on : Giampietro Savegnago, Michel Soulenq and Gerhard Walther. Any help will be welcome;
(4) Donald Moriyama Sensei has been posted as a Ki-Aikido practitioner. I was corrected by Gregg Jennings and have changed him to its
correct place at the Aikikai;
(5) No comparison is done between organizations and this list should not be interpreted this way.
Thank you very much
Ubaldo.

Greg Jennings
05-16-2001, 02:16 PM
Originally posted by Kami

(4) Donald Moriyama Sensei has been posted as a Ki-Aikido practitioner. I was corrected by Gregg Jennings and have changed him to its
correct place at the Aikikai;


That would be "Greg" Jennings :) .

Regards,

Fausto
05-16-2001, 03:00 PM
Hi Kami here's how things are:

Savegnago Sensei is 7th Dan Bu Iku Kai.
The Bu Iku Kai is the assosiations created by H. Kobayashi Sensei in Europe. With the death of H. Kobayashi Sensei Savegnago Sensei did his own assosiation (A.I.A.) and Piero Suriano Sensei (7th Dan) carries on with the Bu Iku Kai Italy.
Therefore Savegnago Sensei does not have an Aikikai certification (unfortunatly i was not able to talk with Savegnago Sensei due to his appointmetns but i'll do my best!).

Arrivederci :D

Kami
05-16-2001, 03:33 PM
Originally posted by Greg Jennings
That would be "Greg" Jennings :) .
Regards,

KAMI : My capacity to blunder is boundless...:o

Kami
05-16-2001, 03:36 PM
Originally posted by Fausto
Savegnago Sensei is 7th Dan Bu Iku Kai.
With the death of H. Kobayashi Sensei Savegnago Sensei did his own assosiation (A.I.A.) and Piero Suriano Sensei (7th Dan) carries on with the Bu Iku Kai Italy.
Arrivederci :D

KAMI : Carry on, my friend! And by the way, I've got two questions :
a) When you mention the A.I.A., are you refering to the Aikido Association International, of Toyoda Sensei or to some other association ? And if so, what is the complete name of that association; and
b) Do you have a URL or some contact with Piero (Pietro ?) Suriano Sensei?
Thank you very much

Fausto
05-17-2001, 06:49 AM
Hehe, nope the A.I.A. is the Italian Aikido Association created by Savegnago Sensei.

The answer for your second question is no :(
Piero Suriano Sensei lives in catania (south italy) and i don't know if he has an URL but i'll search for it :D

When i ask my Sensei if Savegano Sensei had an aikikai certification he told me "from what i know he hasn't but maybe at his last trip to japan (3 months ago) he got an aikikai certification cuz in japan the Bu Iku Kai is considered part of the Aikikai". Because of this i don't want to say that Savegnago Sensei doesn't have an Aikikai certification, untill I talk with him, but he does have a Bu Iku Kai (as i said before the Bu Iku Kai is the association created by H. Kobayashi Sensei here in Europe) certification.

Arrivederci y cuidense muchachos(as) hehe :cool:

P.S. What about Andr้ Cognar Sensei? his an 8th Dan of the Bu Iku Kai. He's also a direct student of H. Kobayashi Sensei (he married his doughter!! hehe). He lives in France.

Greg Jennings
05-23-2001, 12:25 PM
Originally posted by Kami


KAMI : My capacity to blunder is boundless...:o

Sorry. I couldn't resist.

Regards,

Greg Jennings
05-23-2001, 01:33 PM
Originally posted by Jim23

Louis,
Maybe it's because Greg throws people around a lot or that you first have to get past Greg to train.

AlAbamA, Hmmmm. :p

No need to apologize about the plug -- it's not a commercial dojo (what's a 15% referral fee of nothing?).:)

Jim23

Thanks for the plugs guys. I appreciate it very much. As this happens to pertain to some things that are going on right now, I wanted to add a few things.

o Ron Myers Sensei and I run the dojo together. He's the instructor, I'm the secretary. I take a lot of the trivia off Myers Sensei and he's bringing me along. It seems to work pretty well.

o Our stance on having no fees of any kind is allowed by a fortunate circumstance. If we were in a different situation, we would have to find a way to cover the rent.

o The 100% free deal hasn't made much of a difference in the number of students. Also, very competent aikido friends of mine tell me that what we're doing will actually hurt rather than help.

o One nice thing about it, though, is that we train the way we want to train without regard to how popular it is. So, while we don't abuse the students, and they don't have to get past me to train, we do train hard and not many people stick around for the long haul. I guess tough training and a fun atmosphere weirds them out.

o We do train hard and we do a lot more breakfalls that the average aikido dojo. But, we've had very few injuries. We've had only one student leave the dojo over being roughly thrown (by another new student).

Enough rambling.

Best Regards,

aikilouis
05-26-2001, 08:21 AM
Regarding Michel Soulenq : according to my information, he is not associated with Aikikai. I don't know who gave him his 7th dan, but you'll probably find more info in his independant association site (www.aiki.org).

Louis R Joseph

Kami
05-26-2001, 09:04 AM
Originally posted by aikilouis
Regarding Michel Soulenq : according to my information, he is not associated with Aikikai. I don't know who gave him his 7th dan, but you'll probably find more info in his independant association site (www.aiki.org).
Louis R Joseph

KAMI : Merci beaucoup, mon cher ami!
I have a video from Soulenq (1994)in which he presents himself as an aikikai affiliate. I'm trying to contact him through the website you sent me. If you get further information, please let me know. Thanks for your help.
Amiti้
Ubaldo.

kimusubi0
05-28-2001, 09:34 AM
Hi Kami

One more...

M'Barek Alaoui 7th Dan Aikikai

Web site: http://www.aikido-au-maroc.fr.st/

Jean-Marc

Kami
05-28-2001, 11:09 AM
Originally posted by kimusubi0
Hi Kami
One more...
M'Barek Alaoui 7th Dan Aikikai
Web site: http://www.aikido-au-maroc.fr.st/
Jean-Marc


KAMI : Hello, Jean-Marc, my friend! You're right, I have forgotten Aloui Sensei. Thank you very much!
Best regards and good keiko
Ubaldo.
:)

Kami
05-28-2001, 11:16 AM
Dear Friends,

I keep getting help from many friends. The last one was from Jean-Marc Duclos, from Portugal. He reminded me the name of M'BAREK ALAOUI, 7th Dan Aikikai, from Morocco.
This our last update :
"Karl Geis - Fugakukai, Texas (USA), 10th Dan
Thamby Rajah - Shudokan, Malaysia, 9th Dan

Shinichi Suzuki – Ki-Aikido, Hawaii(USA), 8th Dan
Takashi Nonaka – Ki-Aikido, Hawaii(USA), 8th Dan
Harry Eto - Ki-Aikido, Hawaii (USA), 8th Dan
Alain Floquet – Yoseikan, France, 8th Dan
Henry Copeland - Fugakukai, Alabama(USA), 8th Dan
Thomas H.Makiyama - Keijutsukai, Japan, 8th Dan (Born in Hawaii)
Georges Stobbaerts – Butokukai, Portugal, 8th Dan
Amos Parker – Yoshinkai, USA, 8th Dan
Walther von Krenner - USMAA, USA, 8th Dan
Lou Periello - USMAA, USA, 8th Dan/Aikikai 5th Dan

Patrick Auge - Yoseikan, California(USA), 7th Dan
Michel Soulenq - Aikikai, France, 7th Dan
Christian Tissier – Aikikai, France, 7th Dan
Gerard Blaize – Aikikai, France, 7th Dan
Robert Kubo – Aikikai, Hawaii(USA), 7th Dan
Donald Moriyama - Aikikai, Hawaii(USA), 7th Dan
Christopher Curtis – Ki-Aikido, Hawaii(USA), 7th Dan
M'barek Alaoui - Aikikai, Morocco, 7th Dan
Lee Ah Loi - Tomiki, England, 7th Dan (JAA)
John Waite – Tomiki/England, 7th JAA/BAA, 5th BJA
Brian Eustace – Tomiki/England, 7th Dan BAA (Nใo ้ mais membro da organiza็ใo) (*)
Robert Forrest-West – Tomiki/England, 7th Dan BAA
William Lawrence – Tomiki/England, 7th Dan BAA
Erhard Altenbrandt, DAB, Germany, 7th Dan
Rolf Brand, DAB, Germany, 7th Dan
Gerhardt Walter, Aikikai (?), Germany, 7th Dan
Kevin Blok, World Kobudo Federation(Aikido Section), 7th Dan
Giampietro Savegnago, Aikikai(?), Italy, 7th Dan
John Allen - Fugakukai, W. Virginia(USA), 7th Dan
Robert Aoyagi - Aikikai, Hawaii(USA), 7th Dan
Charles Caldwell - Fugakukai, Colorado(USA), 7th Dan
Stewart Chan - Seidokan, California(USA), 7th Dan
Chuck Clark - Jiyushinkai, Arizona(USA), 7th Dan
Frank Doran - Aikikai, California(USA), 7th Dan
Richard Hirao - Aikikai, Hawaii(USA), 7th Dan
Rianard Jackson - Fugakukai, Texas(USA), 7th Dan
Tim Joe - Fugakukai, Texas(USA), 7th Dan
Harvey Konigsberg – Aikikai,NY(USA), 7th Dan
Robert Nadeau - Aikikai, California(USA), 7th Dan
Clif Norgaard - Fugakukai, Arkansas(USA), 7th Dan
Steven Seagal - Aikikai, California(USA), 7th Dan
William Witt - Aikikai, California(USA), 7th dan
Harry Wright - Fugakukai, Alabama(USA), 7th Dan
##############################
###########
(1) More research should be done and more help is wanted on : Giampietro Savegnago, Michel Soulenq, Andr้ Cognar, Piero Suriano and Gerhard Walther. Any help will be welcome;
(2) No comparison is done between organizations and this list should not be interpreted this way.
Thank you very much
Ubaldo.

Kami
06-10-2001, 04:20 AM
Originally posted by Kami
Dear Friends,

This is our latest update of our list. The main alteration has been the promotion of our friend, CHUCK CLARK, to the 8th Dan. Congratulations, Chuck San!

"Karl Geis - Fugakukai, Texas (USA), 10th Dan

Thamby Rajah - Shudokan, Malaysia, 9th Dan

Shinichi Suzuki – Ki-Aikido, Hawaii(USA), 8th Dan
Takashi Nonaka – Ki-Aikido, Hawaii(USA), 8th Dan
Harry Eto - Ki-Aikido, Hawaii (USA), 8th Dan
Alain Floquet – Yoseikan, France, 8th Dan
Henry Copeland - Fugakukai, Alabama(USA), 8th Dan
Thomas H.Makiyama - Keijutsukai, Japan, 8th Dan (Born in Hawaii)
Georges Stobbaerts – Butokukai, Portugal, 8th Dan
Amos Parker – Yoshinkai, USA, 8th Dan
Walther von Krenner - USMAA, USA, 8th Dan
Lou Periello - USMAA, USA, 8th Dan/Aikikai 5th Dan
Chuck Clark - Jiyushinkai, USA, 8th Dan

Patrick Auge - Yoseikan, California(USA), 7th Dan
Michel Soulenq - Aikikai(6th Dan)/GCERCCE (7th Dan), France
Christian Tissier – Aikikai, France, 7th Dan
Gerard Blaize – Aikikai, France, 7th Dan
Robert Kubo – Aikikai, Hawaii(USA), 7th Dan
Donald Moriyama - Aikikai, Hawaii(USA), 7th Dan
Christopher Curtis – Ki-Aikido, Hawaii(USA), 7th Dan
M'barek Alaoui - Aikikai, Morocco, 7th Dan
Lee Ah Loi - Tomiki, England, 7th Dan (JAA)
John Waite – Tomiki/England, 7th JAA/BAA, 5th BJA
Brian Eustace – Tomiki/England, 7th Dan BAA (Nใo ้ mais membro da organiza็ใo) (*)
Robert Forrest-West – Tomiki/England, 7th Dan BAA
William Lawrence – Tomiki/England, 7th Dan BAA
Erhard Altenbrandt, DAB, Germany, 7th Dan
Rolf Brand, DAB, Germany, 7th Dan
Gerhardt Walter, Aikikai (5th Dan)/BDAS (7th Dan,Germany
Kevin Blok, World Kobudo Federation(Aikido Section), 7th Dan
Giampietro Savegnago, Aikikai(?), Italy, 7th Dan
John Allen - Fugakukai, W. Virginia(USA), 7th Dan
Robert Aoyagi - Aikikai, Hawaii(USA), 7th Dan
Charles Caldwell - Fugakukai, Colorado(USA), 7th Dan
Stewart Chan - Seidokan, California(USA), 7th Dan
Frank Doran - Aikikai, California(USA), 7th Dan
Richard Hirao - Aikikai, Hawaii(USA), 7th Dan
Rianard Jackson - Fugakukai, Texas(USA), 7th Dan
Tim Joe - Fugakukai, Texas(USA), 7th Dan
Harvey Konigsberg – Aikikai,NY(USA), 7th Dan
Robert Nadeau - Aikikai, California(USA), 7th Dan
Clif Norgaard - Fugakukai, Arkansas(USA), 7th Dan
Steven Seagal - Aikikai, California(USA), 7th Dan
William Witt - Aikikai, California(USA), 7th dan
Harry Wright - Fugakukai, Alabama(USA), 7th Dan
##############################
###########
More research should be done and more help is wanted on : Giampietro Savegnago, Andr้ Cognar and Piero Suriano.Any help will be welcome.
No comparison is done between organizations and this list should not be interpreted this way.
Thank you very much
Ubaldo.

Chuck Clark
06-10-2001, 12:14 PM
Thanks for your thoughts. This was quite a shock! I can remember when I was a teenager of seventeen who had just been promoted to shodan (one of the selection of things I can remember...) and thought I would be happy if I ever made sandan.

As I continued in my budo practice around the world, I encountered many people that I admired and learned from. I also saw some that were not very admirable ... and I learned some things from them also (what NOT to be like, etc.) I saw people who had been promoted politically, who had bought rank, or who had just made up the most outlandish lies about their background and created their own certificates. At one point, I was turned down for promotion to godan in judo because I "hadn't brought in enough "members and support" for the national organization. I had grown up knowing the difference between "those who could 'dance' and those who could not" and was somewhat arrogant and proud that my rank had come from the people it had.

Years have passed since then and changes have come along. I can actually remember the day when I stopped worrying about rank or how good I was or what others thought of my ability. I decided to just put on a dogi and practice. Even if I never improved, I would just uke for everyone. One thing I know how to do for sure is be a good uke.

Rank means responsibilities to me now. Responsible to my teachers (living and dead) and their teachers to continue and grow in the tradition I'm a part of. Responsible to myself to just continue being true to myself and responsible to those who have chosen to learn from me.

On one scale, I know how I stack up to some at this rank. I also know some others at this rank that I will always feel in awe of their abilities and kokoro. I will discover more about what this new responsibility requires and do my best to live up to it.

Thanks to all of you that I continue to learn from when we train together or I read your thoughts and find myself expanding my view to include your own.

Regards,

Colin 67
06-12-2001, 05:37 PM
There are at least two more British Sensei to add to the list. Haydn Foster Sensei 7th Dan Instiute of Aikido and Ken Williams Sensei Ki society. I'm not sure what rank Mr Williams holds now but as he taught Mr Foster in the fifties then he must be 7th or higher by now.

Kami
06-13-2001, 02:52 AM
Originally posted by Colin 67
There are at least two more British Sensei to add to the list. Haydn Foster Sensei 7th Dan Instiute of Aikido and Ken Williams Sensei Ki society. I'm not sure what rank Mr Williams holds now but as he taught Mr Foster in the fifties then he must be 7th or higher by now.

KAMI : Thank you for your cooperation, Colin!
Could you send me further information?
If I remember correctly, Haydn Foster Sensei was a student of Kenshiro Abbe Sensei and a head of Aikikai in England. I guess now he's independent (Institute of Aikido). I do not have much information about Ken Williams Sensei except what we have in Pranin's Encyclopedia.
I would be glad if you could send me some data : confirmation of both men dan ranking; the last ranking they both have from Aikikai and Ki Society; if Mr. Williams is still linked to Ki Society and his present rank, either in KS or in whatever organization he is a present member of.
Contact with both of them will be, of course, unvaluable.
Thank you again

Colin 67
06-13-2001, 12:46 PM
Unfortunately i have no idea about what happened to Ken Williams after he went to Japan in 1966. Except that he came back to the UK and now runs a large organisation headed by himself teaching Ki development style Aikido. The last ranking that Mr Williams and Mr Foster had recognised by Hombu was i believe their 3rd and 2nd Dans respectively in 1962. Since then Mr foster was awarded 3rd dan by Nakazono in 1969 after which he set up the Institute in 1973. Subsequent gradings have been awarded i believe by the Institute membership and the 7th dan was given in August 1999. A slightly longer version of the above is available at the Institute website www.ioaikido.fsnet.co.uk
I did have the web address for Mr Williams organisation too but can't find it now. There may be other 7th Dans in the UK, but i'll leave that to people who may know rather than speculators like me!

MAX
06-14-2001, 04:23 AM
Can you tell me where Mr Foster or Mr Williams teach,if they still do????

Kami
06-14-2001, 07:40 AM
Dear Colin,

Thank you very much for your information. That's a good beginning for my research.
Best


Originally posted by Colin 67
Unfortunately i have no idea about what happened to Ken Williams after he went to Japan in 1966. Except that he came back to the UK and now runs a large organisation headed by himself teaching Ki development style Aikido. The last ranking that Mr Williams and Mr Foster had recognised by Hombu was i believe their 3rd and 2nd Dans respectively in 1962. Since then Mr foster was awarded 3rd dan by Nakazono in 1969 after which he set up the Institute in 1973. Subsequent gradings have been awarded i believe by the Institute membership and the 7th dan was given in August 1999. A slightly longer version of the above is available at the Institute website www.ioaikido.fsnet.co.uk
I did have the web address for Mr Williams organisation too but can't find it now. There may be other 7th Dans in the UK, but i'll leave that to people who may know rather than speculators like me!

Sherman Byas
06-14-2001, 10:10 AM
I have heard (don't know how accurate) that in most styles of Aikido there is no formal testing above the rank of 4th or 5th dan. Comments Please!

Sherman

Kami
06-14-2001, 11:02 AM
Originally posted by Sherman Byas
I have heard (don't know how accurate) that in most styles of Aikido there is no formal testing above the rank of 4th or 5th dan. Comments Please!
Sherman

KAMI : You are right, more or less...
Depending on the organization, promotion above 4th (or 3rd or 5th) Dan, may happen because of:
a)time spent in the art (your students begin to reach your level, so...);
b)remarkable services to the art, recognized by your Hombu(Aikikai, Yoshinkai, Tomiki, etc...);
c) remarkable technical acumen, recognized by all;
d) political (and unknowable) reasons;
and
e) great donations to the Hombu of your style (that's a lie, of course!) :rolleyes:
Best

Colin 67
06-15-2001, 01:28 PM
Originally posted by MAX
Can you tell me where Mr Foster or Mr Williams teach,if they still do????

Mr Foster was my sensei and still teaches at "The Hut" in West Drayton, just North of Heathrow airport in Middlesex. Mr Williams teaches near Bristol somewhere, i would tell you exactly where but like i said i lost his website address.

Richard Harnack
06-16-2001, 12:52 PM
When Roderick Kobayashi, Sensei, founded Seidokan Aikido in 1981, he was at that time Rokudan. On several occasions when asked by new students what his rank was he would simply say that as head of the organization he no longer held rank. One day during a seminar at my dojo in St Louis, one of the children came up to me and asked what rank Kobayashi, Sensei was. I glanced out the side of my eye and saw Sensei staring intently at me to see what my answer would be. I told the child that Kobayashi, Sensei was now "Zero Dan". Rod grinned from ear-to-ear and confirmed his new rank!

Kami
06-16-2001, 04:29 PM
Originally posted by Richard Harnack
When Roderick Kobayashi, Sensei, (was) asked by new students what his rank was he would simply say that as head of the organization he no longer held rank.

KAMI : Roderick T. Kobayashi Sensei (+ 1995), Founder of Seidokan Aikido, was a very important man in the history of Aikido. He was also one of the very few non-japanese to hold the title of Hombu Shidoin in the Aikikai, at the time Koichi Tohei Sensei was still Chief-Instructor at Hombu. The only reason he is not in this List is that it is concerned with LIVING non-japanese High-Ranking Yudansha.
OTOS, his opinion on ranking is one to be respected. Other masters, on other opportunities, have expressed different opinions, that also need to be respected.
Our list also does not make comparisons between Sensei or organizations. It just cites important living figures, important for their work and not necessarily for their organizations.
Best regards
Ubaldo

Kami
06-27-2001, 02:02 PM
Dear Friends,

This is the last update on my list. The name of HARRY ETO Sensei has been retired from the list, since it only lists living aikidoka and Eto Sensei has passed away.PAOLO CORRALINI Sensei has been included. The List stands now :

Karl Geis - Fugakukai, Texas (USA), 10th Dan
Thamby Rajah - Shudokan, Malaysia, 9th Dan

Shinichi Suzuki – Ki-Aikido, Hawaii(USA), 8th Dan
Takashi Nonaka – Ki-Aikido, Hawaii(USA), 8th Dan
Alain Floquet – Yoseikan, France, 8th Dan
Henry Copeland - Fugakukai, Alabama(USA), 8th Dan
Thomas H. Makiyama - Keijutsukai, Japan, 8th Dan (born in Hawaii)
Georges Stobbaerts – Butokukai, Portugal, 8th Dan
Amos Parker – Yoshinkai, USA, 8th Dan
Chuck Clark - Jiyushinkai, USA, 8th Dan
Walther von Krenner - USMAA, USA, 8th Dan
Lou Periello - USMAA, USA, 8th Dan/Aikikai 5th Dan

Patrick Auge - Yoseikan, California(USA), 7th Dan
Michel Soulenq - Aikikai, France, 7th Dan
Christian Tissier – Aikikai, France, 7th Dan
Gerard Blaize – Aikikai, France, 7th Dan
Robert Kubo – Aikikai, Hawaii(USA), 7th Dan
Donald Moriyama - Aikikai, Hawaii(USA), 7th Dan
Christopher Curtis – Ki-Aikido, Hawaii(USA), 7th Dan
M'barek Alaoui - Aikikai, Morocco, 7th Dan
Lee Ah Loi - Tomiki, England, 7th Dan (JAA)
John Waite – Tomiki/England, 7th JAA/BAA, 5th BJA
Brian Eustace – Tomiki/England, 7th Dan BAA (Nใo ้ mais membro da organiza็ใo) (*)
Robert Forrest-West – Tomiki/England, 7th Dan BAA
William Lawrence – Tomiki/England, 7th Dan BAA
Erhard Altenbrandt, DAB, Germany, 7th Dan
Rolf Brand, DAB, Germany, 7th Dan
Gerhardt Walter, Aikikai (?), Germany, 7th Dan
Kevin Blok, World Kobudo Federation(Aikido Section), 7th Dan
Giampietro Savegnago, Aikikai(?), Italy, 7th Dan
John Allen - Fugakukai, W. Virginia(USA), 7th Dan
Robert Aoyagi - Aikikai, Hawaii(USA), 7th Dan
Charles Caldwell - Fugakukai, Colorado(USA), 7th Dan
Stewart Chan - Seidokan, California(USA), 7th Dan
Frank Doran - Aikikai, California(USA), 7th Dan
Richard Hirao - Aikikai, Hawaii(USA), 7th Dan
Rianard Jackson - Fugakukai, Texas(USA), 7th Dan
Tim Joe - Fugakukai, Texas(USA), 7th Dan
Harvey Konigsberg – Aikikai, (USA), 7th Dan
Robert Nadeau - Aikikai, California(USA), 7th Dan
Clif Norgaard - Fugakukai, Arkansas(USA), 7th Dan
Steven Seagal - Aikikai, California(USA), 7th Dan
William Witt - Aikikai, California(USA), 7th dan
Harry Wright - Fugakukai, Alabama(USA), 7th Dan
Paolo Corralini - Iwama Ryu, Italy, 7th Dan
#########################################
(1) More research should be done and more help is wanted on : Giampietro Savegnago, Michel Soulenq, Andr้ Cognar, Piero Suriano and Gerhard Walther. Any help will be welcome;
(2) No comparison is done between organizations and this list should not be interpreted this way.

Best

deepsoup
06-27-2001, 05:09 PM
Originally posted by Kami

Robert Forrest-West – Tomiki/England, 7th Dan BAA


I hate to nit-pick after all your effort, but I believe that one should be Robert Forest Webb, and I'm sure his grade is recognised by Shodokan honbu, so I guess that makes it JAA/BAA rather than just BAA.

If you want to be really picky, he is actually based just over the border in Wales, rather than England, but maybe now I'm going too far.

It looks like you've done an awful lot of research, congratulations on a fine piece of work.

Sean

Erik
06-27-2001, 05:10 PM
I think Chuck Clark needs to be moved up a notch on the list. Or, is Jun passing bad info?

Kami
06-27-2001, 06:01 PM
Originally posted by Erik
I think Chuck Clark needs to be moved up a notch on the list. Or, is Jun passing bad info?

KAMI : No, Jun isn't passing bad info and you are definitely right. My mistake...:(
Consider it corrected!
Best

Kami
06-27-2001, 06:04 PM
Originally posted by deepsoup
I hate to nit-pick after all your effort, but I believe that one should be Robert Forest Webb, and I'm sure his grade is recognised by Shodokan honbu, so I guess that makes it JAA/BAA rather than just BAA.
If you want to be really picky, he is actually based just over the border in Wales, rather than England, but maybe now I'm going too far.
It looks like you've done an awful lot of research, congratulations on a fine piece of work.
Sean

KAMI : Hello, Sean! Thanks a lot for your interest. If you could get me some other information (Home Page, e-mail for contact, etc...), you'll make me very glad. I need all the help I can get.
Thank you also for your nice words. :D
Best

deepsoup
06-27-2001, 06:40 PM
Originally posted by Kami

If you could get me some other information (Home Page, e-mail for contact, etc...), you'll make me very glad.

I dont think there is much information online, but what little I know I just sent you in a private message.

I've never used that before, so if you dont get the message it'll be me messing up, let me know and I'll try again. :)

Sean
x

Kami
06-29-2001, 06:09 AM
Dear fellow members,
STANLEY PRANIN wrote to me transmitting the following e-mails from Ms. LIESE KLEIN, representative of the Birankai and Chiba Shihan :

"Mr. Pranin,

I understand that you have lots of activity on the bulletin boards, but the main place this error is posted is in the "Aikido Organizations" folder, for which there is only one posting. This is an embarrassing error for all involved. Perhaps it would be appropriate for you personally to make a statement that lists of this type should confirmed before posting on such a visible forum.
Thank you for your time,
Liese Klein"

"Dear Mr. Pranin,
>>I am writing on behalf of T.K. Chiba Shihan at San Diego Aikikai.
>>In
>>several places on your bulletin boards you have listed erroneous
>>information about the rankings of three Birankai shihan--Vasquez,
>>Iseri
>>and Arnold. They are all 6th dan, not 7th Dan. Please correct this
>>information as soon as possible. In the future, when you post
>>anything on
>>Chiba Shihan or Birankai, please do us the courtesy of calling to
>>the dojo
>>to confirm the information at (619) 280-0082. Thank you for your
>>prompt
>>action on this.
>>Sincerely,
>>Liese Klein
>>San Diego Aikikai"

I quite understand Ms.Klein's posts and I would like to present my sincere excuses for my mistake.
A mistake is a mistake and no amount of explanation may correct it but, anyway, I would like to stress some points :
a)My list, as any human endeavor, is subject to mistakes and errors and as such I have permanently invited everyone to correct it;
b) I always do the best I can as to checking, rechecking and altering it, according to research done and input received;
c) in the case of Chiba Shihan, his separation from USAF/WR and the promotion of his students to Shihan level, as well as the possible promotion of his students to the 7th dan, I did my best to check those informations, as seen below :
(WHERE I GOT THE ORIGINAL INFORMATION) : http://www.aikidojournal.com/ubb/Forum9/HTML/000609.html
(SOME RESEARCH AND THE INFORMATION I RECEIVED): http://www.aikidojournal.com/ubb/Forum9/HTML/000633.html
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=958
and
D) in the past, I have tried to contact USAF/WR and got no replies. I had no contact with Chiba Shihan's organization (the Birenkai) and so I was unable to get information from them. Now, that I have Liese Klein's contact, I hope she will contact me personally, giving me some e-mail to contact her on future opportunities.
Nonetheless, I acknowledge a mistake happened and apparently caused some sorrow to others. So, I would like to express also my sorrow for that and and atest my utmost expression of respect for Kazuo Chiba Shihan, the Birankai and everybody else involved.
With my very best regards
Ubaldo
P.S. Since the 3 men involved were not promoted to the 7th Dan, limit of my list, they have been deleted from it. This, in no way, may be construed to represent any demerit to them.
Best

Kami
09-23-2001, 08:39 AM
Dear friends,
After a long winter, The Kami Hall of Fame presents the newest update on its :
LIST OF HIGH-RANKING LIVING NON-JAPANESE YUDANSHA

And the list is :cool:

Karl Geis - Fugakukai, Texas (USA), 10th Dan

Thamby Rajah - Shudokan, Malaysia, 9th Dan

Shinichi Suzuki – Ki-Aikido, Hawaii(USA), 8th Dan
Takashi Nonaka – Ki-Aikido, Hawaii(USA), 8th Dan
Alain Floquet – Yoseikan, France, 8th Dan
Henry Copeland - Fugakukai, Alabama(USA), 8th Dan
Thomas H. Makiyama - Keijutsukai, Japan, 8th Dan (born in Hawaii)
Georges Stobbaerts – Butokukai, Portugal, 8th Dan
Amos Parker – Yoshinkai, USA, 8th Dan
Chuck Clark - Jiyushinkai, USA, 8th Dan
Walther von Krenner - USMAA, USA, 8th Dan
Lou Periello - USMAA, USA, 8th Dan/Aikikai 5th Dan
Andr้ Cognar Sensei – France, Bu Iku Kai 8th Dan

Patrick Auge - Yoseikan, California(USA), 7th Dan
Michel Soulenq - GCERCCE, France, 7th Dan /Aikikai, 6th Dan
Christian Tissier – Aikikai, France, 7th Dan
Gerard Blaize – Aikikai, France, 7th Dan
Robert Kubo – Aikikai, Hawaii(USA), 7th Dan
Donald Moriyama - Aikikai, Hawaii(USA), 7th Dan
Christopher Curtis – Ki-Aikido, Hawaii(USA), 7th Dan
M'barek Alaoui - Aikikai, Morocco, 7th Dan
Lee Ah Loi - Tomiki, England, 7th Dan (JAA)
John Waite – Tomiki/England, 7th JAA/BAA, 5th BJA
Brian Eustace – Tomiki/England, 7th Dan BAA
Robert Forest-Webb – Tomiki/England, 7th Dan JAA/BAA
William Lawrence – Tomiki/England, 7th Dan BAA
Haydn Foster – Institute of Aikido, England, 7th Dan
Erhard Altenbrandt, DAB, Germany, 7th Dan
Rolf Brand, DAB, Germany, 7th Dan
Gerhardt Walter, BDAS 7th Dan/Aikikai 5th Dan, Germany
Kevin Blok, World Kobudo Federation(Aikido Section), 7th Dan/Aikikai 6th Dan
Giampietro Savegnago, Italy, AIA 7th Dan
John Allen - Fugakukai, W. Virginia(USA), 7th Dan
Robert Aoyagi - Aikikai, Hawaii(USA), 7th Dan
Charles Caldwell - Fugakukai, Colorado(USA), 7th Dan
Stewart Chan - Seidokan, California(USA), 7th Dan
Frank Doran - Aikikai, California(USA), 7th Dan
Richard Hirao - Aikikai, Hawaii(USA), 7th Dan
Rianard Jackson - Fugakukai, Texas(USA), 7th Dan
Tim Joe - Fugakukai, Texas(USA), 7th Dan
Harvey Konigsberg – Aikikai, (USA), 7th Dan
Robert Nadeau - Aikikai, California(USA), 7th Dan
Clif Norgaard - Fugakukai, Arkansas(USA), 7th Dan
Steven Seagal - Aikikai, California(USA), 7th Dan
William Witt - Aikikai, California(USA), 7th dan
Harry Wright - Fugakukai, Alabama(USA), 7th Dan
Eddie Hagihara - USA, Aikikai, 7th Dan
Paolo Corralini - Iwama Ryu, Italy, 7th Dan
Ulf Evenas - Iwama Ryu, Sweden, 7th Dan
Andr้ Fredrix – Belgium, IMAF 7th Dan
Luciano Paterna – Italy, IMAF 7th Dan
Piero Suriano – Italy, Bu Iku Kai 7th Dan
L.F. Wilkinson - USA, IAA, 7th Dan
#########################################

Any feedback?

(IMPORTANT NOTE :
1 - This list makes no comparison between organizations;
2 - This list represents the author's opinion on each sensei's value and not on the basis of the organization to which he belongs;
3 - opinions, suggestion of additions or deletions, further information, are encouraged. )
Best

Aikilove
09-24-2001, 05:13 AM
I know at least one more 7th dan, namely Ulf Evenas Shihan, Iwama Ryu, Sweden. He is Iwama ryu shihan over north Europe I believe and Paolo Corralini is shihan for south Europe.

Kami
09-24-2001, 10:47 AM
Originally posted by Aikilove
I know at least one more 7th dan, namely Ulf Evenas Shihan, Iwama Ryu, Sweden. He is Iwama ryu shihan over north Europe I believe and Paolo Corralini is shihan for south Europe.

KAMI : Thank you very much, Jakob! You're right, of course. I don't include every "Shihan", "Soke" or "judan" in my list but, in the case, of Ulf Evenas, I'm very glad to make the correction.
I have included him.
Best regards

C. de Boisblanc
09-24-2001, 08:16 PM
Lowell F. Wilkinson - 7th dan, Aikibudokan Dojo, Houston, Texas
Technical Director of International Aikido Alliance.
I beleive he was promoted to Shichidan in 1996 or 97.

Regards
Chris de Boisblanc
Aikibudokan Dojo
Houston, TX

Mares
09-24-2001, 09:11 PM
Originally posted by Aikilove
I know at least one more 7th dan, namely Ulf Evenas Shihan, Iwama Ryu, Sweden. He is Iwama ryu shihan over north Europe I believe and Paolo Corralini is shihan for south Europe.

Jakob

Are you a student of Evenas Sensei?

Kami
09-26-2001, 03:14 AM
Thanks to the help of Jim Baker Sensei (of Antarctica Aikikai fame...), I have included a new high-ranked sensei :
EDDIE HAGIHARA - USAF/Eastern Region - 7th Dan Aikikai, a former student at Hombu Dojo, under many famous masters, including Yoshimitsu Yamada Sensei.
Thanks, Jim!:)

Aikilove
09-26-2001, 05:48 AM
Originally posted by Mares
Jakob

Are you a student of Evenas Sensei?

Well his dojo is in Gothenburg and I live some 200 miles south of that in Lund, where I study Aikido in the local dojo. But Every time I get the chance (not so often I'm afraid) I try to take the opportunity to study under him.

Kami
10-16-2001, 01:07 PM
Dear all,

This is the newest update on my Yudansha List, with two changes :
a) inclusion of the name of GWYNNE JONES; and
b) correction in the affiliation of KEVIN BLOK(Yoshinkai and not Aikikai, as placed previously).
And the list is :
Karl Geis - Fugakukai, Texas (USA), 10th Dan

Thamby Rajah - Shudokan, Malaysia, 9th Dan

Shinichi Suzuki – Ki-Aikido, Hawaii(USA), 8th Dan
Takashi Nonaka – Ki-Aikido, Hawaii(USA), 8th Dan
Alain Floquet – Yoseikan, France, 8th Dan
Henry Copeland - Fugakukai, Alabama(USA), 8th Dan
Thomas H. Makiyama - Keijutsukai, Japan, 8th Dan (born in Hawaii)
Georges Stobbaerts – Butokukai, Portugal, 8th Dan
Amos Parker – Yoshinkai, USA, 8th Dan
Chuck Clark - Jiyushinkai, USA, 8th Dan
Walther von Krenner - USMAA, USA, 8th Dan
Lou Periello - USMAA, USA, 8th Dan/Aikikai 5th Dan
Andr้ Cognar Sensei – France, Bu Iku Kai 8th Dan

Patrick Auge - Yoseikan, California(USA), 7th Dan
Michel Soulenq - GCERCCE, France, 7th Dan /Aikikai, 6th Dan
Christian Tissier – Aikikai, France, 7th Dan
Gerard Blaize – Aikikai, France, 7th Dan
Robert Kubo – Aikikai, Hawaii(USA), 7th Dan
Donald Moriyama - Aikikai, Hawaii(USA), 7th Dan
Christopher Curtis – Ki-Aikido, Hawaii(USA), 7th Dan
M'barek Alaoui - Aikikai, Morocco, 7th Dan
Lee Ah Loi - Tomiki, England, 7th Dan (JAA)
John Waite – Tomiki/England, 7th JAA/BAA, 5th BJA
Brian Eustace – Tomiki/England, 7th Dan BAA
Robert Forest-Webb – Tomiki/England, 7th Dan JAA/BAA
William Lawrence – Tomiki/England, 7th Dan BAA
Haydn Foster – Institute of Aikido, England, 7th Dan
Erhard Altenbrandt, DAB, Germany, 7th Dan
Rolf Brand, DAB, Germany, 7th Dan
Gerhardt Walter, BDAS 7th Dan/Aikikai 5th Dan, Germany
Kevin Blok, World Kobudo Federation(Aikido Section), 7th Dan/Yoshinkai 6th Dan
Giampietro Savegnago, Italy, AIA 7th Dan
John Allen - Fugakukai, W. Virginia(USA), 7th Dan
Robert Aoyagi - Aikikai, Hawaii(USA), 7th Dan
Charles Caldwell - Fugakukai, Colorado(USA), 7th Dan
Stewart Chan - Seidokan, California(USA), 7th Dan
Frank Doran - Aikikai, California(USA), 7th Dan
Richard Hirao - Aikikai, Hawaii(USA), 7th Dan
Rianard Jackson - Fugakukai, Texas(USA), 7th Dan
Tim Joe - Fugakukai, Texas(USA), 7th Dan
Harvey Konigsberg – Aikikai, (USA), 7th Dan
Robert Nadeau - Aikikai, California(USA), 7th Dan
Clif Norgaard - Fugakukai, Arkansas(USA), 7th Dan
Steven Seagal - Aikikai, California(USA), 7th Dan
William Witt - Aikikai, California(USA), 7th dan
Harry Wright - Fugakukai, Alabama(USA), 7th Dan
Eddie Hagihara - USA, Aikikai, 7th Dan
Paolo Corralini - Iwama Ryu, Italy, 7th Dan
Ulf Evenas - Iwama Ryu, Sweden, 7th Dan
Andr้ Fredrix – Belgium, IMAF 7th Dan
Luciano Paterna – Italy, IMAF 7th Dan
Piero Suriano – Italy, Bu Iku Kai 7th Dan
L.F. Wilkinson - USA, IAA, 7th Dan
Gwynne Jones - England, Shin Gi Tai,7th Dan
###########################################

SOME OBSERVATIONS :
A) This list does NOT compare organizations or ranking grades. It just presents high-ranked non-japanese yudansha, from 7th Dan on;
b) It expresses, of course, the author's bias, not necessarily the organization of the inductees; and
c) considering that this is a work in progress, every help, correction, addition, observation, is welcome!
Best

Kami
10-19-2001, 01:55 PM
Dear friends,

When I created my list of high-ranking non-japanese yudansha, its objective was to answer a request, from many people, to know who were them and from what organizations.
It involved quite a bit of research but, finally, it is a personal opinion : i only inducted those i believe, based on my own standards, to be worthy. In this aspect, organizations were much less important than the individuals. Some are universally respected, others are generally seen with caution. In one case, I considered just two people from an organization I didn't like, on the basis of the people, not the organization.
I've always stressed :
"SOME OBSERVATIONS :
A) This list does NOT compare organizations or ranking grades. It just presents high-ranked non-japanese yudansha, from 7th Dan on;
b) It expresses, of course, the author's bias, not necessarily the organization of the inductees; and
c) considering that this is a work in progress, every help, correction, addition, observation, is welcome!"
Recently, however, my respected friend, DENNIS HOOKER SHIHAN pointed to me that my list was organized by highest grade and so, inevitably, gave a false idea of a comparison between people and organizations.
Trying to improve it, I changed the disposition to separate organizations and place people in alphabetical order. I know it will not please everyone but it was the best I could do. I hope it will be for the best.
############################################

AIKIKAI :

Alaoui, M'barek - Aikikai, Morocco, 7th Dan
Aoyagi, Robert - Aikikai, Hawaii(USA), 7th Dan
Blaize, Gerard – Aikikai, France, 7th Dan
Doran, Frank - Aikikai, California(USA), 7th Dan
Hagihara, Eddie - Aikikai, USA, 7th Dan
Hirao, Richard - Aikikai, Hawaii(USA), 7th Dan
Konigsberg, Harvey – Aikikai, (USA), 7th Dan
Kubo, Robert – Aikikai, Hawaii(USA), 7th Dan
Moriyama, Donald - Aikikai, Hawaii(USA), 7th Dan
Nadeau, Robert - Aikikai, California(USA), 7th Dan
Seagal, Steven - Aikikai, California(USA), 7th Dan
Tissier, Christian – Aikikai, France, 7th Dan
Witt, William - Aikikai, California(USA), 7th dan

ASSOCIAZIONE ITALIANA DI AIKIDO (AIA) :
Savegnago, Giampietro - Italy, AIA 7th Dan

BDAS:

Walter, Gerhardt - BDAS 7th Dan/Aikikai 5th Dan, Germany

BU IKU KAI :

Cognar, Andr้ – France, Bu Iku Kai 8th Dan
Suriano, Piero – Italy, Bu Iku Kai 7th Dan

DAอ NIPPON BUTOKUKAI :

Stobbaerts, Georges – Butokukai, Portugal, 8th Dan

DEUTSCHE AIKIDO BUND (DAB) :

Altenbrandt, Erhard - DAB, Germany, 7th Dan
Brand, Rolf - DAB, Germany, 7th Dan

FUGAKUKAI :

Allen, John - Fugakukai, W. Virginia(USA), 7th Dan
Caldwell, Charles - Fugakukai, Colorado(USA), 7th Dan
Copeland, Henry - Fugakukai, Alabama(USA), 8th Dan
Geis, Karl - Fugakukai, Texas (USA), 10th Dan
Jackson, Rianard - Fugakukai, Texas(USA), 7th Dan
Joe, Tim - Fugakukai, Texas(USA), 7th Dan
Norgaard, Clif - Fugakukai, Arkansas(USA), 7th Dan
Wright, Harry - Fugakukai, Alabama(USA), 7th Dan

GCERCCE :

Soulenq, Michel - GCERCCE, France, 7th Dan /Aikikai, 6th Dan

INSTITUTE OF AIKIDO :
Foster, Haydn – Institute of Aikido, England, 7th Dan

INTERNATIONAL AIKIDO ASSOCIATION :
Wilkinson, L.F. - Texas(USA), IAA, 7th Dan

INTERNATIONAL MARTIAL ARTS FEDERATION (IMAF) :

Fredrix, Andr้ – Belgium, IMAF 7th Dan
Paterna, Luciano – Italy, IMAF 7th Dan

IWAMA RYU :

Corralini, Paolo - Iwama Ryu, Italy, 7th Dan
Evenas, Ulf - Sweden, Iwama Ryu, 7th Dan

JIYUSHINKAI :
Clark, Chuck - Jiyushinkai, USA, 8th Dan

KEIJUTSUKAI :

Makiyama, Thomas H. - Keijutsukai, Japan, 8th Dan (born in Hawaii)

KI-AIKIDO :

Curtis, Christopher – Ki-Aikido, Hawaii(USA), 7th Dan
Nonaka, Takashi – Ki-Aikido, Hawaii(USA), 8th Dan
Suzuki, Shinichi – Ki-Aikido, Hawaii(USA), 8th Dan

SEIDOKAN :

Chan, Stewart - Seidokan, California(USA), 7th Dan

SHINGITAI :

Jones, Gwynne - England, Shingitai, 7th Dan


SHODOKAN (TOMIKI) :

Eustace, Brian – Tomiki/England, 7th Dan BAA
Forest-Webb, Robert – Tomiki/England, 7th Dan JAA/BAA
Lawrence, William – Tomiki/England, 7th Dan BAA
Lee, Ah Loi - Tomiki, England, 7th Dan (JAA)
Waite, John – Tomiki/England, 7th JAA/BAA, 5th BJA

SHUDOKAN (Malaysia) :

Rajah, Thamby - Shudokan, Malaysia, 9th Dan

UNITED STATES MARTIAL ARTS ASSOCIATION (USMAA) :

Krenner, Walther von - USMAA, USA, 8th Dan
Periello, Lou - USMAA, USA, 8th Dan/Aikikai 5th Dan

WORLD KOBUDO FEDERATION :
Blok, Kevin - World Kobudo Federation(Aikido Section), 7th Dan/Yoshinkai 6th Dan

YOSEIKAN
Aug้, Patrick - Yoseikan, USA, 7th Dan
Floquet, Alain - Yoseikan, France, 8th Dan

YOSHINKAN
Parker, Amos - Yoshinkai, USA, 8th Dan
#############################################

A last observation : Ranking are mainly important for organizations (Aikikai, Yoshinkai, etc...), that promote and give graduations. So, to say "grades are not important", when you belong to an organization, is not very coherent. But, as there is no standardization, each organization has its own criteria. Some grade to the 9th Dan, 8th, 7th, or less. That's another reason why it's impossible to "compare" them.
As we've said before, any help will be welcome!
Best

Kami
11-03-2001, 03:46 AM
Dear friends,

We have promoted changes in our high-ranking non-japanese aikido list.
ALAIN FLOQUET Sensei's art has been changed from Yoseikan to Aikibudo.
This is the update on our list :

AIKIBUDO :

Floquet, Alain - Aikibudo, France,8th Dan

AIKIKAI :

Alaoui, M'barek - Aikikai, Morocco, 7th Dan
Aoyagi, Robert - Aikikai, Hawaii(USA), 7th Dan
Blaize, Gerard – Aikikai, France, 7th Dan
Doran, Frank - Aikikai, California(USA), 7th Dan
Hagihara, Eddie - Aikikai, USA, 7th Dan
Hirao, Richard - Aikikai, Hawaii(USA), 7th Dan
Konigsberg, Harvey – Aikikai, (USA), 7th Dan
Kubo, Robert – Aikikai, Hawaii(USA), 7th Dan
Moriyama, Donald - Aikikai, Hawaii(USA), 7th Dan
Nadeau, Robert - Aikikai, California(USA), 7th Dan
Seagal, Steven - Aikikai, California(USA), 7th Dan
Tissier, Christian – Aikikai, France, 7th Dan
Witt, William - Aikikai, California(USA), 7th dan

ASSOCIAZIONE ITALIANA DI AIKIDO (AIA) :
Savegnago, Giampietro - Italy, AIA 7th Dan

BDAS:

Walter, Gerhardt - BDAS 7th Dan/Aikikai 5th Dan, Germany

BU IKU KAI :

Cognar, Andr้ – France, Bu Iku Kai 8th Dan
Suriano, Piero – Italy, Bu Iku Kai 7th Dan

DAอ NIPPON BUTOKUKAI :

Stobbaerts, Georges – Butokukai, Portugal, 8th Dan

DEUTSCHE AIKIDO BUND (DAB) :

Altenbrandt, Erhard - DAB, Germany, 7th Dan
Brand, Rolf - DAB, Germany, 7th Dan

FUGAKUKAI :

Allen, John - Fugakukai, W. Virginia(USA), 7th Dan
Caldwell, Charles - Fugakukai, Colorado(USA), 7th Dan
Copeland, Henry - Fugakukai, Alabama(USA), 8th Dan
Geis, Karl - Fugakukai, Texas (USA), 10th Dan
Jackson, Rianard - Fugakukai, Texas(USA), 7th Dan
Joe, Tim - Fugakukai, Texas(USA), 7th Dan
Norgaard, Clif - Fugakukai, Arkansas(USA), 7th Dan
Wright, Harry - Fugakukai, Alabama(USA), 7th Dan

GCERCCE :

Soulenq, Michel - GCERCCE, France, 7th Dan /Aikikai, 6th Dan

INSTITUTE OF AIKIDO :
Foster, Haydn – Institute of Aikido, England, 7th Dan

INTERNATIONAL AIKIDO ASSOCIATION :
Wilkinson, L.F. - Texas(USA), IAA, 7th Dan

INTERNATIONAL MARTIAL ARTS FEDERATION (IMAF) :

Fredrix, Andr้ – Belgium, IMAF 7th Dan
Paterna, Luciano – Italy, IMAF 7th Dan

IWAMA RYU :

Corralini, Paolo - Iwama Ryu, Italy, 7th Dan
Evenas, Ulf - Sweden, Iwama Ryu, 7th Dan

JIYUSHINKAI :
Clark, Chuck - Jiyushinkai, USA, 8th Dan

KEIJUTSUKAI :

Makiyama, Thomas H. - Keijutsukai, Japan, 8th Dan (born in Hawaii)

KI-AIKIDO :

Curtis, Christopher – Ki-Aikido, Hawaii(USA), 7th Dan
Nonaka, Takashi – Ki-Aikido, Hawaii(USA), 8th Dan
Suzuki, Shinichi – Ki-Aikido, Hawaii(USA), 8th Dan

SEIDOKAN :

Chan, Stewart - Seidokan, California(USA), 7th Dan

SHINGITAI :

Jones, Gwynne - England, Shingitai, 7th Dan


SHODOKAN (TOMIKI) :

Eustace, Brian – Tomiki/England, 7th Dan BAA
Forest-Webb, Robert – Tomiki/England, 7th Dan JAA/BAA
Lawrence, William – Tomiki/England, 7th Dan BAA
Lee, Ah Loi - Tomiki, England, 7th Dan (JAA)
Waite, John – Tomiki/England, 7th JAA/BAA, 5th BJA

SHUDOKAN (Malaysia) :

Rajah, Thamby - Shudokan, Malaysia, 9th Dan

UNITED STATES MARTIAL ARTS ASSOCIATION (USMAA) :

Krenner, Walther von - USMAA, USA, 8th Dan
Periello, Lou - USMAA, USA, 8th Dan/Aikikai 5th Dan

WORLD KOBUDO FEDERATION :
Blok, Kevin - World Kobudo Federation(Aikido Section), 7th Dan/Yoshinkai 6th Dan

YOSEIKAN
Aug้, Patrick - Yoseikan, USA, 7th Dan

YOSHINKAN
Parker, Amos - Yoshinkai, USA, 8th Dan
#############################################

As we've said before, any help will be welcome!
Best

Greg Jennings
11-03-2001, 05:10 AM
Thank You Ubaldo! The list is now much more satisfying!

Regards,

lt-rentaroo
11-03-2001, 07:26 AM
Hello,

Ubaldo - As part of your list you have John Allen (7th Dan), West Virginia, associated with the Fugakukai Organization.

Because I'm a native of West Virginia :), I was interested in learning more about Sensei Allen's dojo. When I checked out the site (it is listed under dojo search on Aikiweb), I learned that Sensei Allen's dojo is no longer affiliated with the Fugakukai. There is a disclaimer message on the "Aikido" info page on the site.

Perhaps you could contact Sensei Allen and get some updated info on his current affiliation. Hope this helps!

Kami
11-03-2001, 10:18 AM
Gregg and Louis,

Thank you a lot for you continuous support and information.
And, Louis : I couldn't acess John Allen's name on Aikiweb Dojo Search. Could you give me the site's URL? I'll contact Geis Sensei about Allen's departure from the Fugakukai.
Good guys, you two!;)

lt-rentaroo
11-03-2001, 11:26 AM
Hello,

Ubaldo -

The URL for the Almost Heaven Dojo in Parkersburg, WV is

http://www.angelfire.com/wv/AlmostHeaven/

Sensei Allen is listed on Aikiweb's dojo search engine as "John C. Allen." This is probably why "John Allen" did not work for you.

I'm glad I could help, Have a good day!!

Kami
11-09-2001, 03:38 PM
According to information gathered from all involved, JOHN C.ALLEN became independent and has no present affiliations.
This is the latest update to our List :

AIKIBUDO :

Floquet, Alain - Aikibudo, France,8th Dan

AIKIKAI :

Alaoui, M'barek - Aikikai, Morocco, 7th Dan
Aoyagi, Robert - Aikikai, Hawaii(USA), 7th Dan
Blaize, Gerard – Aikikai, France, 7th Dan
Doran, Frank - Aikikai, California(USA), 7th Dan
Hagihara, Eddie - Aikikai, USA, 7th Dan
Hirao, Richard - Aikikai, Hawaii(USA), 7th Dan
Konigsberg, Harvey – Aikikai, (USA), 7th Dan
Kubo, Robert – Aikikai, Hawaii(USA), 7th Dan
Moriyama, Donald - Aikikai, Hawaii(USA), 7th Dan
Nadeau, Robert - Aikikai, California(USA), 7th Dan
Seagal, Steven - Aikikai, California(USA), 7th Dan
Tissier, Christian – Aikikai, France, 7th Dan
Witt, William - Aikikai, California(USA), 7th dan

ASSOCIAZIONE ITALIANA DI AIKIDO (AIA) :
Savegnago, Giampietro - Italy, AIA 7th Dan

BDAS:

Walter, Gerhardt - BDAS 7th Dan/Aikikai 5th Dan, Germany

BU IKU KAI :

Cognar, Andr้ – France, Bu Iku Kai 8th Dan
Suriano, Piero – Italy, Bu Iku Kai 7th Dan

DAอ NIPPON BUTOKUKAI :

Stobbaerts, Georges – Butokukai, Portugal, 8th Dan

DEUTSCHE AIKIDO BUND (DAB) :

Altenbrandt, Erhard - DAB, Germany, 7th Dan
Brand, Rolf - DAB, Germany, 7th Dan

FUGAKUKAI :

Caldwell, Charles - Fugakukai, Colorado(USA), 7th Dan
Copeland, Henry - Fugakukai, Alabama(USA), 8th Dan
Geis, Karl - Fugakukai, Texas (USA), 10th Dan
Jackson, Rianard - Fugakukai, Texas(USA), 7th Dan
Joe, Tim - Fugakukai, Texas(USA), 7th Dan
Norgaard, Clif - Fugakukai, Arkansas(USA), 7th Dan
Wright, Harry - Fugakukai, Alabama(USA), 7th Dan

GCERCCE :

Soulenq, Michel - GCERCCE, France, 7th Dan /Aikikai, 6th Dan

INDEPENDENT :

Allen, John - Independent, W. Virginia(USA), 7th Dan (previously belonged to the Fugakukai)

INSTITUTE OF AIKIDO :
Foster, Haydn – Institute of Aikido, England, 7th Dan

INTERNATIONAL AIKIDO ASSOCIATION :
Wilkinson, L.F. - Texas(USA), IAA, 7th Dan

INTERNATIONAL MARTIAL ARTS FEDERATION (IMAF) :

Fredrix, Andr้ – Belgium, IMAF 7th Dan
Paterna, Luciano – Italy, IMAF 7th Dan

IWAMA RYU :

Corralini, Paolo - Iwama Ryu, Italy, 7th Dan
Evenas, Ulf - Sweden, Iwama Ryu, 7th Dan

JIYUSHINKAI :
Clark, Chuck - Jiyushinkai, USA, 8th Dan

KEIJUTSUKAI :

Makiyama, Thomas H. - Keijutsukai, Japan, 8th Dan (born in Hawaii)

KI-AIKIDO :

Curtis, Christopher – Ki-Aikido, Hawaii(USA), 7th Dan
Nonaka, Takashi – Ki-Aikido, Hawaii(USA), 8th Dan
Suzuki, Shinichi – Ki-Aikido, Hawaii(USA), 8th Dan

SEIDOKAN :

Chan, Stewart - Seidokan, California(USA), 7th Dan

SHINGITAI :

Jones, Gwynne - England, Shingitai, 7th Dan


SHODOKAN (TOMIKI) :

Eustace, Brian – Tomiki/England, 7th Dan BAA
Forest-Webb, Robert – Tomiki/England, 7th Dan JAA/BAA
Lawrence, William – Tomiki/England, 7th Dan BAA
Lee, Ah Loi - Tomiki, England, 7th Dan (JAA)
Waite, John – Tomiki/England, 7th JAA/BAA, 5th BJA

SHUDOKAN (Malaysia) :

Rajah, Thamby - Shudokan, Malaysia, 9th Dan

UNITED STATES MARTIAL ARTS ASSOCIATION (USMAA) :

Krenner, Walther von - USMAA, USA, 8th Dan
Periello, Lou - USMAA, USA, 8th Dan/Aikikai 5th Dan

WORLD KOBUDO FEDERATION :
Blok, Kevin - World Kobudo Federation(Aikido Section), 7th Dan/Yoshinkai 6th Dan

YOSEIKAN
Aug้, Patrick - Yoseikan, USA, 7th Dan

YOSHINKAN
Parker, Amos - Yoshinkai, USA, 8th Dan
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