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Khaled
01-22-2005, 07:44 AM
Hi every 1
Actually the title is an advice from some martial artists who I meet weekly in our dojo. We have many different martial arts sessions going every day in that dojo like karate, taekwando, judo, jeet kune do and kung fu (wing chun). we always talk about martial arts and their effectiveness in real situations like street fighting.

They almost made me desperate and disappointed of Aikido.
Here are some of their quotations:
“Aikido doesn’t require fitness so most aikido players are old, fat and not strong enough”
“ you can not attack in aikido you just receiving and waiting what the attackers will do”
“ many aikido techniques depend on grabbing which is rarely happen in real fights”
“ aikido focuses on hands to applying its techniques and ignores the rest of the body, no kicks no punches no jumping”
“ aikido is only good for seminars and demonstrations”
“ aikido is too traditional, no body use sword in our world today”
“ aikido is a philosophy more than a combat way”
etc……

I didn’t lose my faith in aikido, but between u and me aren’t they have right in some thoughts???

Is aikido useful and effective in real situation and against other martial arts?

mj
01-22-2005, 08:16 AM
Well...

"Aikido doesn't require fitness so most aikido players are old, fat and not strong enough"
(who is going to pick a fight with an old, weak, fat guy?)

" you can not attack in aikido you just receiving and waiting what the attackers will do"
(rubbish)

" many aikido techniques depend on grabbing which is rarely happen in real fights"
(grabbing happens in every fight)

" aikido focuses on hands to applying its techniques and ignores the rest of the body, no kicks no punches no jumping"
(shomen-ate)

" aikido is only good for seminars and demonstrations"
(it's also good for opening doors and avoiding charging animals)

" aikido is too traditional, no body use sword in our world today"
(are these guys in Saudi Arabia?...aren't they always chopping each others heads off with swords?)

" aikido is a philosophy more than a combat way"
(duh)
Each to his own. Anyone caught dissing other arts will be shot at dawn.

dan guthrie
01-22-2005, 08:18 AM
One of my senseis is a guard at a hospital for some of the people too crazy and violent for prison. I'm going to talk to him about posting here.
About a month ago he asked one of the students who's studied Tang Soo Do to spar using high kicks. One of the "inmates" has gone off his medicine and that's his preferred method of attack, he's kicked other inmates. He took some punishment on his arm ( it wasn't full speed) but I think it shows some definite promise that would translate into any real attack.
One of the Ultimate Fighting Champions, Chuck Liddel (sp?) has a dojo 15 miles away from ours and there's a kick boxing dojo 2 miles closer to this senseis house.
Sensei has a choice and he chose Aikido.
I'm not saying one art is better than another but I do think Aikido is effective and compassionate.

David Yap
01-22-2005, 08:25 AM
Hi Khaled,

Honestly, Khaled, that's a tough question to answer. It is all about perception. I started doing karate when I was 14 years old, aikido when I was 36 and this is 12th year in aikido. I have been always been active in karate and only given up teaching 2 years ago: I wasn't convinced that my chief instructor had gained enlightenment to re-invent karate his way.

A hundred years ago karate was a complete art meaning it had grappling, throws and ground fighting beside the hand strikes and kicks but all that changed after the art was introduced into the public school system - it was "water-downed" to make it safe for school children (same for TKD which was a Korean re-invention of JKA style karate). 34 years ago, I thought I have picked the complete art but the only thing missing is a "complete" teacher.

So who are these "martial artists" who only trained in one art?

Peace be with you.

David Y

jss
01-22-2005, 11:06 AM
Here are some of their quotations:
“Aikido doesn’t require fitness so most aikido players are old, fat and not strong enough”
That's nothing more than an observation. It's astonishing how a certain intonation can make an observation sound like criticism. And I like that the fact that a lot of of the (important) aikido players are old, fat and not that strong: it means that aikido is the best martial art: you do not need to be athletic to be any good at it. :-) (And you can still practice when you're old, which is nice as well.)

“ ou can not attack in aikido you just receiving and waiting what the attackers will do”
As stated above, untrue. Firstly you can use aikido offensively, it is just not practiced that way. Secondly, ultimately (when you're old and fat) you learn how to make the attacker attack you in the way you want him/her to. Very simple example of the opposite: when training a wrist grab, I often have to explain to beginners that if they stand with their feet next to each other and their hands by their side, I will not grab their wrist, but rather kick them or puch them.

“ many aikido techniques depend on grabbing which is rarely happen in real fights”
Techniques are often trained in reaction to grabbing, but that's because it's easier to learn. And after reading some threads on this: it seems to depend on what kind of fgiht you're in, whether there'll be any grabbing. There's a big difference between fighting, for example, an experienced street figher and a drunk friend who claims you cheated while playing scrabble with him.

“ aikido focuses on hands to applying its techniques and ignores the rest of the body, no kicks no punches no jumping”
I have yet failed to step out of the line of attack using only my hands, but I'll keep trying. (Also have I not yet succeeded in punching without the use of my hands, but I suspect that only a truely enligyhtened person will be able to grasp this.)

“ aikido is only good for seminars and demonstrations”
It's excellent for those! And for training! They're all three a lot of fun.
Question: Only good for seminars and demonstrations as opposed to ...? (It's good to know that the people you spoke know their rhetoircal trics.) Probably as opposed to fighting, but fighting is such a broad concept (see above) ...

“ aikido is too traditional, no body use sword in our world today”
I don not believe any aikidoka claims that we train with the bokken for practical purposes.

“ aikido is a philosophy more than a combat way”
How can you tell? Are there quota we can use to measure this?
And as a philosopher I must say that the difference between an aikido training and a philosophy class is quite large.

Is aikido useful and effective in real situation and against other martial arts?
I've never seen aikido fight against something or someone, so I wouldn't know.

andylucas
01-22-2005, 11:15 AM
opinions are like what?

mikeg
01-22-2005, 11:20 AM
I often read stories like this, but the experienced, non-aikido martial artists whom I know personally all have a lot of respect for aikido. These are people in their thirties or forties who have trained in things like escrima or shotokan karate. They generally think that it takes a very long time to learn aikido, but they share wide-eyed stories of expert aikido feats.

Qatana
01-22-2005, 11:23 AM
Khaled

I think from your other post, about aikido being a girl, that you already Chose aikido, you already have a love and beginning understanding of the art.
People always put down what they don't unserstand or fear, I do it all the time!
You should follow the path that means something to You, not the guys in the class after yours at the dojo.You don't have to live with them, and you do have to live with yourself.

Kevin Leavitt
01-22-2005, 12:51 PM
I disagree with every single generalization that was made. You can be fat, but it is not advisable. I can find fat practioners in every art. Other than that, I won't do a point by point counter!

Agree with Jo's statement above!

thomas_dixon
01-22-2005, 01:15 PM
I often read stories like this, but the experienced, non-aikido martial artists whom I know personally all have a lot of respect for aikido. These are people in their thirties or forties who have trained in things like escrima or shotokan karate. They generally think that it takes a very long time to learn aikido, but they share wide-eyed stories of expert aikido feats.

Kalista and Escrimador like to flow :cool:

Sue Hammerich
01-22-2005, 03:14 PM
Those are good questions. I commend you for your desire to learn, and for your courage expressed in your inquiry. What your fellow martial artists feel about Aikido and their respective art is probably the truth - for THEM. That sounds like a cop-out, I know. But everyone's opinion of anything is filtered through his or her own experience. For instance, different tonal structure has created different types of music in the world. What sounds like cacophony to someone from one part of the world is enjoyable to another. Words that are gibberish to one person is a common language to someone else. Are any of these opinions wrong? No, unless there is a judgment attached.
I commend you on your desire to find your own path in martial arts; I presume that corresponds to your seeking your own path in life. Keep questioning, do the right thing, and peace to you and yours
Have a great week!
Sue

giriasis
01-22-2005, 04:58 PM
Khaled,

I'm going to agree with the many others here. Please do not allow the negative words of others from discouraging you from pursuing your own martial path. Be proud of your choice of aikido. It is as valid and worthy as any other martial art. They only demean it because they do not have the knowledge or understanding of being an aikido practitioner. Enter "irimi" and invite them to train with you and learn aikido for themselves. "Tenkan" and tell them that you understand their questions but that you find that there is more to aikido than there appears to be from first glance.

TheWonderKid
01-22-2005, 07:51 PM
The thing I find funny about people criticizing Aikido because of less punches and kicks (which are in fact incorporated in the techniques in our dojo) is that if your Aikido is good, they only get to throw one punch.

They throw a punch to your abs, you slip into a Tsuki Kotogeshi (dunno if that's spelled correctly) and they end up flat on their face with their thumb pointing towards the back of their head.

Seems effective enough to me.

Rupert Atkinson
01-22-2005, 08:17 PM
Hi every 1
Actually the title is an advice from some martial artists who I meet weekly in our dojo.

While the experience of others is valid, whatever you think, it is best to 'think' it from your own experience.

Martin Ruedas
01-23-2005, 06:52 AM
I think those opinions are very shallow, if they were needles, they would'nt even penetrate the rubber if Aikido were a balloon.

Chad Scott
01-23-2005, 07:38 AM
My brother-in-law is a police officer, and he uses his aikido skills more often than his tae kwon do skills when he is on the job. He said aikido is more practical in real-life situations than tae kwon do. He has studied both.

neb1979
01-23-2005, 08:52 AM
Hi Khaled

I have only been studding Aikido for about four months now and have read allot on Aikido, I have also trained in alto of other Arts and do understand were these people are coming from because I used to be one of them. What I believe these people are not realizing is that Aikido isn't just about punching and kicking and all the other physical stuff its about not being in a situation in the first place and if you do have no other choice, to deal with it with as little or no injury to the other person and yourself. I really don't think that these peoples minds are very open? I work security and one night I had this biky throw a hay maker at me with my back to him, this was about two months into training, I actually sensed him coming before he made contact with my head so I was able to maneuver myself so the punched missed, this is what I mean by Aikido isn't just about punching and kicking its about not being in the situation in the first place. After the punched missed I stepped away and got the police to remove him as It would have been difficult for myself to do. That is Aikido. I hope this has been of some benefit to you Khaled keep training all the best. :)

Tim Gerrard
01-23-2005, 03:34 PM
Should invite him to a class, let him see for himself.

skyetide
01-23-2005, 05:17 PM
Aikido is nice because it gives us the option of diffusing situations with compassion....and not necessarily having to do major damage.

I don't think that one martial art is superior over another...rather you should find the one that is best for you in this time of your life. I would suggest to choose the style that you are drawn to the most and don't worry what others say.

I studied TKD for seven years when I was younger. It was good for me at that time. Now I have found Aikido. For "real
life" situations that I would likely be in as a school teacher, Aikido is the best path for me now. I would like to be able to subdue a violent student without doing damage to them. This is not to mention the non-violent situations in which I try to use Aikido philosophy just to get through my day.

Best wishes in finding your path, Kahled.

eyrie
01-23-2005, 08:35 PM
You've made your choice to do aikido. So why waste your time proving or disproving aikido's effectiveness? Simply agree with them and admit that aikido is absolutely useless in a street fight. Ask for a demonstration of their prowess (not on you of course), and look for every opening in their attack and defence. Then thank them for their impressive display of martial effectiveness and say you are too much of a sissy to take such hard punishment and that you'll stick with a sissy sport like aikido instead. And walk away.

The most frustrating thing for people like this is if you don't play their game.

maikerus
01-23-2005, 10:56 PM
You can always reply with the argument:

"You're training for competition in which there are rules, so you are actually training not to use full force or power when punching and kicking. I hope this doesn't come back to hurt you in a fight when you 'punch' someone and give them a little tap for the 'point'.

I train in something where there is very little competition because it is too dangerous not to know what your opponent is doing...after all, if we killed all our training partners then where would we be?"

...or you could just smile because you know something they don't and let them keep shoving square pegs into round holes.

--Michael

Bridge
01-24-2005, 02:53 AM
May i point out. Aikidoists have been the MOST open minded of ALL martial arts collectives I have ever met. And I've hopped between quite a few styles too.

xuzen
01-24-2005, 03:52 AM
Dear Khaled,

I am so sorry your dojo mate / friends look down on aikido. Over at my place we don't have any problem... that is the ill reputation of aikido in general. Hmmm, I wonder if the fact that Yoshinkan style has anything to do with it? One can only guess.

They almost made me desperate and disappointed of Aikido. Here are some of their quotations:
"Aikido doesn't require fitness so most aikido players are old, fat and not strong enough"
Ask those non believer to do randori/jiyu waza with your sempai/senior brethens for 5 minutes under full attack mode, no holding back. If they are not out-of-breath, out of sync and out of focus, then I will say that they are super-fit.

you can not attack in aikido you just receiving and waiting what the attackers will do"
Why can't we attack? If in randori/jiyu waza the uke's are not attacking, I will charge at them. The key is to get them to response in the manner where you can then perform the prescribed technique. So pre-emptive strike are quite common in my randori.

" many aikido techniques depend on grabbing which is rarely happen in real fights"
Nah, there are also techniques to counter strikes. Yokomenuchi, Shomenuchi, Munetuski... etc. What aikido are you learning BTW? No strikes, only grab? There are also technique to counter beer bottle to the head, baseball bat to the side etc.

I will continue this thread further tomorrow. Alas... the evil dictator called Mr Work is calling me. <sigh>

Boon.

Peter Seth
01-24-2005, 07:13 AM
Hi E1.
Well! Let me say apart from being 'bad form' to offer opinions on other arts, it is extremely ignorant if you know nothing about them? I have been involved in martial arts for 0ver 40 years and ALL arts are good in there individual way. I chose Aikido as my 'life art' for many reasons, its philosophy (I am not Naive before anyone says it) its all about how you yourself want to live your life - I find violence to be a bit of a bore, a negative thing in most cases. But, (being oldish but not too fat) I can if required delve very very deeply (and subtley) into violence.
Luckily due to aikido It has not been called upon too often.
Aikido in my view is an excellent vehicle in which can be included any aspects of any other martial art if required (usually as a back up for a mistiming). It can be gentle at one end, and in a split second, lethal at the other.
So do not be disheartened, These macho comments mean nothing to a 'thinking' person.
Pete.

PS: In fact aikido's potential frightens me sometimes.

justinm
01-24-2005, 08:07 AM
Hi every 1
Actually the title is an advice from some martial artists who I meet weekly in our dojo. We have many different martial arts sessions going every day in that dojo like karate, taekwando, judo, jeet kune do and kung fu (wing chun). we always talk about martial arts and their effectiveness in real situations like street fighting.

They almost made me desperate and disappointed of Aikido.
Here are some of their quotations:
"Aikido doesn't require fitness so most aikido players are old, fat and not strong enough"
" you can not attack in aikido you just receiving and waiting what the attackers will do"
" many aikido techniques depend on grabbing which is rarely happen in real fights"
" aikido focuses on hands to applying its techniques and ignores the rest of the body, no kicks no punches no jumping"
" aikido is only good for seminars and demonstrations"
" aikido is too traditional, no body use sword in our world today"
" aikido is a philosophy more than a combat way"
etc……

I didn't lose my faith in aikido, but between u and me aren't they have right in some thoughts????Possibly.Is aikido useful and effective in real situation and against other martial arts?Possibly.

Are you enjoying it? Then go and train. :)

Justin

ian
01-24-2005, 08:40 AM
Hi every 1
1. Aikido doesn’t require fitness so most aikido players are old, fat and not strong enough”
2. you can not attack in aikido you just receiving and waiting what the attackers will do”
3. many aikido techniques depend on grabbing which is rarely happen in real fights”
4. aikido focuses on hands to applying its techniques and ignores the rest of the body, no kicks no punches no jumping”
5. aikido is only good for seminars and demonstrations”
6. aikido is too traditional, no body use sword in our world today”
7. aikido is a philosophy more than a combat way”


1. true, but fitness is useful in self-defence. Good aikidoka will try to improve their fitness as well (Ueshiba was supposed to be quite strong). Age will tend to decrease physical ability.
2. false; many of the techniques derive from restrain 'attacks' or can lead from a defence (e.g. block) to an attack.
3. false; grabbing does happen in real attacks, and to a large extent grabbing is just an early stage in learning connecting with your opponent.
4. Kicks are possible, but they limit your ability to move your body (1 foot is raised so you have to hop). The whole body is used in aikido, because we move the whole body.
5. not true; aikido learns responses from sudden unpredictable attacks from anywhere, whereas other martial arts often train against set attack types or do sparring where the opponent is obvious.
6. We don't learn ken-jitsu, we learn aiki-ken. The sword work is there purely to develop the unarmed techniques.
7. Competitive martial arts are usually fight orientated i.e. one opponent, often assume there are matts and pads. Aikido is self-defence orientated i.e. producing a level of agression appropriate to the situation (e.g. a simple nikkyo or gently breaking of a grip can prevent escalation of a fight). Aikido also assumes that if you go to the floor you are lost (which is true in a multiple attack) and that there can be more than one attacker, and they could be armed with anything (and often you don't even known if they are armed).

'Fights' are different from attacks. If you want to look cool and reinforce your ego you learn to fight. If you want to resolve conflicts or survive attacks (esp. multiple or knife attacks) aikido is your best option.

I have used aikido many times, and although it is maybe not as satisfying as destroying someone with punches or kicks; it is much more effective for conflict resolution and in my experience it minimises injuries on both sides.

dawolfie
01-24-2005, 09:01 AM
I think some critics of Aikido are so critical because of the length of time it takes for someone to understand the principles of Aikido, much less be able to use it.

It has some to do in how you view yourself and your own growth. The live in student in our dojo works very very hard at his AIkido, he wants to have a dojo one day and share what he has learned. Not because he is self conscious or afraid of the world, but because he wants to learn Aikido to the fullest extent.

Unless you are in the dojo for any amount of time, Aikido cannot be fully appreciated. After a handful of years, I still go in and find new things. There is just too many aspects of Aikido to be learned from a demonstration.

As far as fitness, that is also up to the student. We work out pretty hard. I lost over 30 lbs and a lady in our class lost 70lbs! Not because it is not a fitness workout, but because we push ourselves and attack as fast as we can be thrown. That is another thing so rarely overlooked, the ukemi. Where else can your learning be based on how well you can take a technique. Rolling and breakfalls are not easy, eventually they become natural, but never easy.

pezalinski
01-24-2005, 10:18 AM
Well, the best response I can give is anecdotal:
An Aikidoka, a Judoka, a Karateka, and a "general fighting arts" guy, all friends and all advanced students in their respective styles, were walking through a bad part of town after classes and got jumped by a gang of about 20 guys, many armed with sticks and knives. (This is not a joke -- I was told this by the judo guy of the story.). They survived and got the better end of the fight, and as the four friends were counting coup, afterwards, the Judo guy (who'd taken a few superficial knife wounds) complained to the others that the Aikido guy must have just stood there, because he was the only one of them who wasn't dirty, cut, bruised, or visibly wounded. The generalist said, no, the aikidoka was the one who took out the most guys, because he didn't get caught up in one-on-one conflicts -- he just went through the crowd like a scythe, turning and tossing guys into one another and into walls, telephone poles, and each other. In their post-game analysis, the Judo and Karate guys tended to focus too much on a single attacker, and were often nailed by a third party who took advantage of their focus; the "generalist" was more Hapkido-oriented, and did more specific damage to his opponent -- but he also was too one-on-one focused. Those three also had a "take a hit to make a hit" concept as part of their styles, so they all three took damage of some sort, and took it in stride. The aikidoka was the only one who was really effective in a melee, and was otherwise unscathed -- and as a result, the other three martial artists decided to take up aikido. (The judoka has been practicing Aikido exclusively for over 15 years now, so this story is fairly old -- before gangs routinely carried guns in California; I think he placed it in the mid-1980's.)

"Aikido doesn't require fitness so most aikido players are old, fat and not strong enough"
- strong enough for what? IMHO, if you rely on strength, you will be beaten by strength...

" you can not attack in aikido you just receiving and waiting what the attackers will do"
IMHO, only as beginner -- advanced students perceive the intention to attack, and preempt the attacker -- leading his intention away from an actual attack OR into an attack one is prepared to handle.

" many aikido techniques depend on grabbing which is rarely happen in real fights"
So do Jujitsu, Judo, Wingchun, Kung Fu, wrestling and many many styles of other arts -- grappling is a 'closing' attack. Have any of these guys been in a "real" fight :rolleyes: ?

" aikido focuses on hands to applying its techniques and ignores the rest of the body, no kicks no punches no jumping" All I can say, is you've never worked out with my sensei... ATEMI - ATEMI - ATEMI :D

Any competent Taekwando or Karate instructor will tell you that the jumping high kicks are suicide unless the opponent is already dazed or otherwise unaware of your attack. (There is plenty of power, but you are totally committed to that attack -- if you screw it up, you've screwed up big time.)

Low kicks to the knees and ankles are the most effective, atemi-wise (can't stand, can't fight). They also can cause the most serious damage with the least amount of force (knees and ankles have serious weak points, my friend). These are some of the reasons we don't train much using kicks -- it' too easy to cause serious damage (non-Ai-Ki). Strikes are what we use in aikido to redirect an opponent's attention and energy, not to destroy him.

" aikido is only good for seminars and demonstrations" Admittedly, aikidoists are the only ones I know of who can put on a demo at a moments notice, with little or no prep to "stage" the combat, and still use effective , full-speed techniques on their opponents. This is supposed to be a weakness?

" aikido is too traditional, no body use sword in our world today" -- what is a machete if not a sword when it is used against persons throughout the third world?

" aikido is a philosophy more than a combat way" Here I would agree with them -- Ai-Ki-Do is not designed to teach you how to kill people quickly :disgust: (often a goal during combat); that would make it an oxymoron. Again, I ask, is that a bad thing? :)

Adam Alexander
01-24-2005, 10:37 AM
"Here I would agree with them -- Ai-Ki-Do is not designed to teach you how to kill people quickly (often a goal during combat); that would make it an oxymoron. Again, I ask, is that a bad thing?"

depends on the style you train, I think. Seems like the difference between life and death in a moment while using Irimi Nage is simply the placement of your knee and placement of the attacker.

darin
01-24-2005, 04:47 PM
Is aikido useful and effective in real situation and against other martial arts?

I think pezalinski gave a great answer!

maikerus
01-24-2005, 05:21 PM
...although it is maybe not as satisfying as destroying someone with punches or kicks; it is much more effective for conflict resolution and in my experience....

I think this is a really good observation. The satisfaction you feel when you hit/kick something when you are angry (I'm pretty sure everyone has done this to something) is easily translated into the satisfaction you expect to feel when hitting/kicking in training. When you watch a demo of a MA that does that you can relate to it. It's hard to relate to the satisfaction of smoothly executing a controlled move that you see in a demo and only experience will give you that satisfaction. Those that only watch Aikido are destined to never understand the satisfaction of those that practice.

Peter...great story. I had never thought about it like that, but it seems to follow from our training. Thanks.

--Michael

ElizabethCastor
01-24-2005, 07:28 PM
...What I believe these people are not realizing is that Aikido isn't just about punching and kicking and all the other physical stuff its about not being in a situation in the first place and if you do have no other choice, to deal with it with as little or no injury to the other person and yourself. ...its about not being in the situation in the first place.
:D

Absolutely...
some people from my dojo went to the bar to be social and the newest akidoka asked our sensei if/when she had ever used the techniques that we are learning and she said:

Learning MA is more than learning the techiniques but understanding when there is a preson or a situation that is not safe and having the sense to stay away if possible. If its not possible to get out then you are prepared...

I just find that this meets my intentions... be ready but there's no need to be 'fists of fury' from the get-go!

makuchg
01-24-2005, 08:56 PM
Hello everyone. This is a very interesting post. I am in the Army and just returned from Iraq. I can tell you that pain compliance techniques, such as sankkyo and nikkyo are very effective in "real life." I can also tell you that kaeshinage and iriminage are also effective. Now I will tell you some Aikido techniques are less effective in high stress situations, not because they are ineffective, but because they require more instictive motor skills then most of us have in a fight. A well trained (tens of years) aikidoka may move instinctively, but most (myself included) don't.

For truely effective combat techniques, learn four or five that work from almost any attack. I recommend kotegaeshi, iriminage, nikkyo, ikkyo, shihonage. Practice these from any attack wearing what you normally wear and increase speed as proficiency increases. Vary location and space available to simulate different situations. If you truly doubt these techniques effectiveness, go watch a law enforcement submission class at FLETC (Federal Law Enforcement Training Center) or the FBI Academy (they are teaching these). These techniques are also fundamental in the new Marine Corps martial art program. Finally go vist a Krav Maga training center and you'll see these techniques are very similar to the ones being taught in their class. For those not familiar, Krav Maga is the combat system of the Israeli Defense Forces. Whether or not you think favorably about Israeli politics, their soldiers are well trained and this is what they teach.

Finally, I recommend reading Warrior Spirit by Richard Heckler-Stozzi (I think I spelled that right). It is about a recently declassified project the US Army did with the 10th Special Forces (it says 20th in the book, but it should be 10th) and it involved Aikido training. The government doesn't choose these arts on an impulse, there was definite research and thought behind their choice. If the Army elected to spend millions teaching Special Forces Aikido I tend to believe it's effectiveness.

Greg Makuch

xuzen
01-25-2005, 12:00 AM
Hi Khaled,

This is the second part of my post...
aikido focuses on hands to applying its techniques and ignores the rest of the body, no kicks no punches no jumping""
Are you crazy? Doing high kick and jumping around against an aikidoka? Ask you sensei to show technique against kicks. You will be amazed how similar they are with your standard textbook technique.

aikido is only good for seminars and demonstrations""
Yeah, so is TKD, Karate, Wushu. Isn't breaking boards and bricks also display of showmanship?

aikido is too traditional, no body use sword in our world today
Sword in aikido is used as a teaching tool. It is used to teach distance, footwork and posture. You are right, it would be really silly to carry a sword in a fight nowadays. An Uzi would be better or my favourite, a Tommy Gun of the Al Capone days.

aikido is a philosophy more than a combat way
Yeah, yeah, so are all those arts that end with Do. One has to start at the physical level and mature towards the philosophical. I must admit, I am still at the physical level of internship.

I didn't lose my faith in aikido, but between u and me aren't they have right in some thoughts???
Glad you still have faith in aikido. Tell you dojo mates to chill out, if they think aikido is all of the above, ask them to spar with your seniors for educational purpose.

Is aikido useful and effective in real situation and against other martial arts?
Yes, all martial arts are effective. If not; they would not have survive until now. They would have die a natural death.

Boon.

David Yap
01-26-2005, 04:07 AM
May i point out. Aikidoists have been the MOST open minded of ALL martial arts collectives I have ever met. And I've hopped between quite a few styles too.

Sorry Bridget, I tend to disagree with your generalization. Perhaps you may have meet those aikidoists who have x-trained in other budo before. IMO, due to the non-competitive doctrine of aikido there tend to be more "my dad can beat your dad" characters among my aikido peers. I once had a drink with a visiting instructor after class. He was told that I was a yudansha in karate. When he asked me what was I doing there (in an aikido dojo), I presumably thought he wanted to know why an ex-karate instructor be interested in training aikido. I merely replied in jest that I train for spiritual reason (in an ethical sense). To this, he burst out in loud laughter and said, "You mean there are spirits in your dojo" [is your dojo haunted?]. That was the first time I made my acquaintance with him. A couple of days later, the same person rang up my dojo instructor to warn him not to trust me, thus giving the impression to my dojo instructor that we have been acquainted for a long time.

At a recent seminar, I bumped into a senior instructor from another dojo - one thing he said after our formal greetings was, "Your karate must have reeeaaally improved a lot". All these remarks were made to assume I train aikido to improve my karate skills. I admit x-training do give me better insight and understanding of my budo arts - meaning I can applied various principles that I come to understand (which are almost the same) across my other disciplines - aikido, archery, golf and karate, etc. Because of my prior MA, it took me a relative short time to pick up aikido compared to those who don't. When I first took up the art, the instructor told me "to empty the cup". Having been there, my advice to those who intend to x-train is not to do that but to filter, sort, adopt or discard. Learning needs rationalizing, "monkey sees and monkey does" would not take you anywhere further from where you start. If you are not prepare to this, then don't waste the time and the money. Also, etiquette requires one to follow instructions to the details wherever dojo one trains. Being a "smartass" also means being rude - unless you happen to train a MMA environment keep your MA to the respective class.

In way what I said about gaining spiritualism from aikido is right, it is a test of ones tolerance (keeping ones center so to speak). In other competitive MA discipline, the size of ones ego is always keep in check - skillfully & physically proven.

That's my humble observation.

David Y

Qatana
01-26-2005, 08:13 PM
However. David, Bridget was making a completely Subjective statement. You even quoted it! She does not make a sweeping generalisation, she was relating from Her direct experience, and you tried to contradict it with your own.
Both of your experiences are valid. Neither right nor wrong. Just your own.

xuzen
01-26-2005, 08:34 PM
I've just realised something wrt this thread. Khaled the original thread starter has actually never replied. Hmmm I am wondering if we are being trolled again? Just curious.

Boon.

PeterR
01-26-2005, 09:00 PM
Of course we are - you guys are just soooooo easy.

We should all read Phil's Field Guide to Trolls (http://www.themartialist.com/pecom/fieldguidetotrolls.htm).

I don't think too much of Phil's opinions but credit where credit's due - its a job well done.

David Yap
01-26-2005, 09:33 PM
Of course we are - you guys are just soooooo easy.

We should all read Phil's Field Guide to Trolls (http://www.themartialist.com/pecom/fieldguidetotrolls.htm).

I don't think too much of Phil's opinions but credit where credit's due - its a job well done.

Thanks for the link, Peter. There are so many classifications that can fit any one of us here. Jun, the owner, is excluded for course. :D

However. David, Bridget was making a completely Subjective statement. You even quoted it! She does not make a sweeping generalization, she was relating from Her direct experience, and you tried to contradict it with your own.

Jo, I assumed she has made a "Hasty" generalization. I merely attempt to show people who do x-training are more "opened-minded" compared to those who train solely one art which I agree is a "subjective statement". ;)

Regards

David Y

CNYMike
01-27-2005, 02:16 AM
We have many different martial arts sessions going every day in that dojo like karate, taekwando, judo, jeet kune do and kung fu (wing chun). we always talk about martial arts and their effectiveness in real situations like street fighting

In the summer of 1997, and then from 1998 until 2003, I studied Kali under Guro Kevin Seaman at his academy in my home town of Cortland, New York. Guro Kevin has instructorships in Kali and Jun Fan/JKD from Guro Dan Inosanto. Guro had a palque on the wall with principles he wanted his students to remember. One of them has always stuck in my mind: "I will refrain from criticizing other styles and systems. They all have something to offer." Not an exact quote, but close enough. Esepcially if it's the Jun Fan/JKD guys giving you the most grief.

One of Guro Kevin's students is a Kali instructor in his own right, Guro Andy Astle. Guro Andy is also a full instructor in Jun Fan/Jeet Kune Do, and he as been allowed to teach Pentjak Silat Serak by Maha Guru Victor de Thouars. When I told Guro Andy I was thinking of resuming Aikido, did he tell me, "Don't waste your time"? NO! His exact words were, "Go for it! You'll be a better martial artist." Guro Kevin also supported my decision. Thinking about how Guro Kevin and Pembantu Andy have supported my resuming Aikido makes my blood boil when I read about JKD people giving Aikido people greif.

Oh, and Guro Andy's Kali/Serak class uses the same studio as the Aikido dojo I'm now in; on Friday nights, in fact, Kali is right after Aikido. There hasn't been any verbal sparring between the two groups AFAIK. In fact, a few weeks ago, one of the Aikido guys played with Andy's kids before he left.

Shooting at dawn is too good for the people you refer to. I think hung, drawn, and quartered comes close.

And about what they say:

..... Here are some of their quotations:
"Aikido doesn't require fitness so most aikido players are old, fat and not strong enough"


Given the sweat I've worked up in Aikido class, it will probably HELP me get fit more than anything else. And my sensei is pretty lean.

" you can not attack in aikido you just receiving and waiting what the attackers will do"


That's the common way to train in many systems; karateka should be familialr with "ippon kumite" or one-step sparring, where one partner attacks and the other practices defenses. The other night in Kail class, we practiced some replies to the jab, again "waiting" for the attack. But Aikido also "attacks," ie has nage initiate the action.

" many aikido techniques depend on grabbing which is rarely happen in real fights"


I once saw a hockey game brawl on TV where two players had grabbed each other's jerseys and were whacking each other with their free hands. Aikido replies to the grab itself and to grab-and-strike combinations. Next.


" aikido focuses on hands to applying its techniques and ignores the rest of the body, no kicks no punches no jumping"


Western boxing focuses only on the hands. It's all punching, no kicks, locks or throws. Aikido is not alone in specializing. What do the TKD guys do? The JKD people are the only ones with bragging rights here. Barely. Next.


"aikido is only good for seminars and demonstrations"

:confused: What?


" aikido is too traditional, no body use sword in our world today"

Nobody walks around with a stick in their right hand and a knife in their left, preapred for fights with other so-armed individuals, but Kali practitioners do espada y daga all the time.


" aikido is a philosophy more than a combat way"
etc……


Well, it may emphasize philospohy more, but it varies from dojo to dojo. The first dojo I was in, under Sensei Jim Wallace, stopped and talked about it once in a while. The one I am in now just trains.


I didn't lose my faith in aikido, but between u and me aren't they have right in some thoughts???


Given that the ones that weren't dead wrong could just as easily be said about other martial arts, even ones more "combative" than Aikido, I doubt it.

Is aikido useful and effective in real situation and against other martial arts?

That's two questions.

If "real situation" means a self defense situation, there are enough people on this board to swear by it to give an opinion. Against other MA as in against the dorcs who are giving you grief, yes, but you'd have to know what you're doing.

Bridge
01-27-2005, 02:38 AM
However. David, Bridget was making a completely Subjective statement. You even quoted it! She does not make a sweeping generalisation, she was relating from Her direct experience, and you tried to contradict it with your own.
Both of your experiences are valid. Neither right nor wrong. Just your own.

Thanks for the back-up Jo :)

May I point out (if it ain't already obvious) my experience of martial arts is relatively limited. And I'm aware that any opinions I have of an art, at the end of the day are only because of the people I have trained with. Hence I think aikido people are open minded and thoughtful (like the guys at my dojo). But it would seem other aiki clubs have knuckleheads too, just like that tae kwon do club I once dedicated months to. Oh, oops hang on that's hardly fair :D

I'm obviously just lucky.

Adam Alexander
01-27-2005, 07:54 AM
If Aikido doesn't have attacks, what the hell have I been doing as Uke?

That's something that really annoys me. People say that Aikido doesn't have attacks. However, we practice them all the time as Uke. Even as Sh'te/Nage we have attacks--I know atleast a half-dozen strikes from performing techniques.

Thing is, we're smart enough to recognize that attacking makes you susceptible to counter-attack and thus, weaker.

CNYMike
01-27-2005, 11:21 AM
If Aikido doesn't have attacks, what the hell have I been doing as Uke?

That's something that really annoys me. People say that Aikido doesn't have attacks. However, we practice them all the time as Uke. Even as Sh'te/Nage we have attacks--I know atleast a half-dozen strikes from performing techniques.

Thing is, we're smart enough to recognize that attacking makes you susceptible to counter-attack and thus, weaker.

Not only that, but I've seen my share of joint locks and throws in Filipino Kali, some not too different from what we do in Aikido, and they are never characterized as "defensive." A Jun Fan/JKD person might categorize the controls and pins as an "immobilization attack," one of the five major ways to attack somebody, esepcially if nage, not uke, initiates the action.

So the idea that Aikido is defensive because you don't pound on your partner hasn't quite sat well with me lately.

CNYMike
01-27-2005, 11:23 AM
Western boxing focuses only on the hands. It's all punching, no kicks, locks or throws. Aikido is not alone in specializing. What do the TKD guys do? The JKD people are the only ones with bragging rights here. Barely. Next.



Of course, I was referring to the JKD people who might be arguing with the original poster, no one else. :o

Adam Alexander
01-27-2005, 09:35 PM
“Aikido doesn’t require fitness so most aikido players are old, fat and not strong enough”



It's the same as any other martial art. If you're fat and out of shape, you'll be slow and your ability to apply "techniques" will be hindered.

I picked up a book by the Ueshibas the other day. They said in that book that your Aikido is contingent on speed. Seeings that we all accept that a 200 lbs fat person will move slower than a 100 lbs slender person, seems to me that that's evidence that to be good at Aikido (in the physically effective way) thinner is better.

Like someone else said: don't confuse the art with the artist. Aikido's not a fat persons art (IMO), it's just an art that some fat people practice.


Ask your buddys if there's any old people in their art. If so, why are they talking about Aikidoka's ages. If not, shouldn't they be concerned that they're practicing an art that they will not be able to practice for good?...unlike you who can practice Aikido for the rest of your life.


As far as strength goes: as an Aikidoka, I'd rather work smart, not hard. Ask those numbskulls if they want to push a car on flat tires if it's not necessary...point: strength isn't necessary when you make the smart decision...Aikido.

syraikidoka
01-27-2005, 10:09 PM
To any doubters of the effectiveness of Aikido -

I have been studying Aikido for a year, but in a street confrontation it still would not be my first choice or instinct. I would (and have) revert quickly to what I learned from the martial arts I practiced in the past (BJJ, Muay Thai, Kali). However it is certainly not for lack of effectiveness of my current training style. Many (most) other martial arts were invented for a specific reason. It was either for sport, to face a military or other oppressive onslaught, or for general self defense. Each needed to make the practitioner into an effective fighter as soon as possible to achieve the desired end. Aikido will achieve the same ends but with more compassion and grace than most. The difference is that it is not immediately available to the student. Only after years of study, philosophy, breathing and stretching are we able to time a response to an attack such that the attacker will be quickly dispatched or controlled at our choosing.

The bottom line is this: Anyone can learn to throw a decent punch or kick in an afternoon and then continue to learn more and refine him/herself for years, but what do you think will happen if that person attacked your sensei?

Charles Hill
01-28-2005, 03:22 AM
I picked up a book by the Ueshibas the other day. They said in that book that your Aikido is contingent on speed.

Jean,

What book is that? That doesn`t sound like something they would write.

Charles

xuzen
01-28-2005, 03:36 AM
....<snip>... but what do you think will happen if that person attacked your sensei?

He/she will need an appointment with either a doctor or a dentist or both very soon.

:D
Boon

bogglefreak20
01-28-2005, 05:17 AM
First of all let me say that this is a matter of one's own point of view. I believe it all comes down to how you see Aikido and why you train in it. I myself train in Ki Aikido which seems to have a lot of philosophy attached to it (though my sensei strongly arfues that Ki Aikido is NOT a philosophy since philosophies are theoretical and Ki Aikido is above all practical).

In our dojo we do not train in order to be able to fight on the street, we do not train for self-defense (which does not mean we're not able to defend ourselves, but rather that self-defense is not our primary goal).

About fitness in Aikido I would like to say that after 2 years of training I am definitely more fit, my muscles more toned and my stamina improved. All that practically without the strains and fatigue I used to get after training in any other sport. It is true that in a fitness studio I could probably get results like this in a month or two, but then again I'm not training Aikido to develop muscles.

In adition to that, I do not believe Ki Aikido focuses on developing muscle strenght, but rather developing Ki.


"Aikido doesn't require fitness so most aikido players are old, fat and not strong enough"

I wonder what is "strong enough"... I suspect your friends ment physical strenght. However, if someone attacks you who is also stronger than you, then you will probably lose the fight. Depending solely on physical strenght is exactly what we are trying to un-learn in Ki Aikido.


" you can not attack in aikido you just receiving and waiting what the attackers will do"

I never wanted to attack anyone, I don't want to attack anyone and I suspect I won't want to attack anyone in the future. That is exactly why I stick to Ki Aikido.

" many aikido techniques depend on grabbing which is rarely happen in real fights"
" aikido focuses on hands to applying its techniques and ignores the rest of the body, no kicks no punches no jumping"
" aikido is too traditional, no body use sword in our world today"

Again, IMHO training in Ki Aikido is not ment as a path towards gaining the ability to knock people down on the street. I never think about real-life situations and how Aikido would help me if I found myself being mugged for instance. Muggers today usually come equipped with guns and other kinds of firearms. If I ever find myself in a situation of being on the wrong side of a gunbarrel held by a mugger, you may rest asured, I will not attempt any Aikido moves whatsoever except those within me with which I will try to remain calm and focused.

On a more funny side I could comment that I'm glad there are no jumps, kicks etc. in Aikido. The use of arms themselves give enough for me to think about not to mention moving around and maitaining the centre.

The tradition in Aikido is something I like very much. I do not train with swords yet (in our dojo that happens after 6 or 7 years of training) but I'm looking forward to that. I'm sure there are plenty of pro arguments for use of swords just like for any other thing in Aikido.

I hope I've managed to explain my view and let me make an emphasis on the words "my view." It's just that.

Lots of joy in training and peace of mind to all of you.

Adam Alexander
01-28-2005, 07:50 AM
Jean,

What book is that? That doesn`t sound like something they would write.

Charles


"Best Aikido: The Fundamentals"

Amendes
01-28-2005, 01:22 PM
Hi every 1
Actually the title is an advice from some martial artists who I meet weekly in our dojo. We have many different martial arts sessions going every day in that dojo like karate, taekwando, judo, jeet kune do and kung fu (wing chun). we always talk about martial arts and their effectiveness in real situations like street fighting.

They almost made me desperate and disappointed of Aikido.
Here are some of their quotations:
“Aikido doesn’t require fitness so most aikido players are old, fat and not strong enough”
“ you can not attack in aikido you just receiving and waiting what the attackers will do”
“ many aikido techniques depend on grabbing which is rarely happen in real fights”
“ aikido focuses on hands to applying its techniques and ignores the rest of the body, no kicks no punches no jumping”
“ aikido is only good for seminars and demonstrations”
“ aikido is too traditional, no body use sword in our world today”
“ aikido is a philosophy more than a combat way”
etc……

I didn’t lose my faith in aikido, but between u and me aren’t they have right in some thoughts???

Is aikido useful and effective in real situation and against other martial arts?

Thanks that made my day.
I got my eyes filled with tears. Not from sadness but from shear laughfter.

Anyone who says Aikido is a waste of time should come try lessons at our school.

As for grabbing in real fights, while sorry to say I been in my share of real fights, and I can't remember any that didn't end in some sort of grab or on the ground. Just because you practice a technique from a grab does not mean it has to be from one. As for attack, we have atemi in our techniques at the intermediate and advanced levels, however we do not bring this up to the beginner levels.

Anyways I can counter all those arguments that are there and take up my whole coffee break, but I'd rather just finish my coffee, since we have all seen them before.

My advice is keep to your Aikido and don't listen to other peoples opinions on what they don't know.

MitchMZ
01-28-2005, 01:27 PM
After just getting back from seeing Saotome Shihan for the first time; I have a totally different perspective of Aikido. It is most definitely a combat art just like any other, with some great philosophy to boot! It should be a "martial" art after all.

Saotome Shihan made us work on kicks for a whole class on the "Aikido Cruise."
Some people did really well with kicks, but a lot of people felt out of place. To me, kicks (done right) are very Aiki. I think if we start defining Aikido through never doing atemi and just doing set techniques, the martial aspect of the art will die. If you are talking to anyone who has boxing, fighting, and general MMA experience...they will tell you atemi is more than critical. I am going to start training in atemi again...because it is just as vital to the whole martial art as a good irimi nage. IMO, throws are secondary defenses; moving the body and atemi are the primary. Wow, everytime I go to a seminar my respect and love for Aikido and it's effectiveness and philosophy rise even higher.

BTW, one of the kick defenses (front snap kick) we did involved moving off the line and catching the leg then doing an open hand strike to the throat of the attacker. We also practiced an elbow strike to the soft spot right above the knee from the same attack and evasion. As far as using kicks for defense goes, we did a side kick to defend from middle or high punch...that is one of my favorites...and very effcient indeed. So, to all those people that say Aikido has no martial aspect or kicks...they just have not been exposed to that part of the art yet. IMO, Aikido is the most comprehensive martial art because anything can be Aikido! O' Sensei wanted his art to be dynamic and I'm glad to see some people stepping up to the plate.

John Boswell
01-28-2005, 01:50 PM
Mitch!

Did ya get any pics? UGH! I wanted to go on that cruise so bad.... :(

Next year, if it kills me! I'm gonna be there and FORCE my wife to enjoy it. ;)

POST PICS!! :D

MitchMZ
01-28-2005, 03:25 PM
Yeah, I can send u some pics if u like...I'm just in the process of unpacking today :( I should have them on my comp by tonight.

djalley
02-10-2005, 02:24 PM
I think aikido is dissed in the martial arts world because it has a very slow "ramp up" time to become truly proficient in the art.

When I took tae kwon do when younger, I learned to kick and punch, which my young mind associated with strength and effectiveness. These kicks and punches were learned quickly, and "mastered" quickly. I can remember doing axe kicks and spinning back kicks as effectively as black belts when I was a green belt. Yes, I had some inherent talent at these kicks, but nonetheless I was able to "master" them enough to use if needed very quickly.

Aikido is very definitive, very "mental" and very final. The techniques, simply put, end a confrontation because the pins are more absolute. This ability to do these techniques correctly comes at a price. The effectiveness of an aikidoka has a very slow "ramp up" time when compared to other martial arts. It catches up to and suprasses the effectiveness of other arts much later. But if an equally experienced black belt between aikido and other arts were to "spar", my money would be on the aikidoka.

I'd look at the people who say not to waste their time with aikido and realize it is a modern mind behind the statements, set on more instant gratification, sold on the concept of ultra-fitness, and lacking the Wisdom to make the distinction between immediate return and effectiveness.

D

Sanshouaikikai
05-23-2005, 10:15 PM
"ok, well since when was everyone young or athletic or strong? Does this mean that after a certain age you're not allowed to learn how to defend yourself? And even so, if Aikido doesn't require fitness doesn't that show how effective it is, that you don't need to spend hours in a gym to be able to block or side-step a punch?"

I totally agree with what you said there!

eyrie
05-23-2005, 10:58 PM
I had a kid ask me on his 2nd lesson about belts and gradings. His 2nd lesson!

His elder brother, who had watched one aikido lesson, and participated in one, had also done TKD up to green belt (whatever that means these days), could not even move for sh*t. And he wanted to know if we did kata, sparred or "self-defense"... tsk tsk.

Apparently, the fact that we did (or rather didn't, in his limited world view) and he could not see "how", was sufficiently enough to convince him that aikido was "useless". Apparently, he could not see why he needed to learn ukemi.

I later learnt that the word from their dad (who did karate), was that what "we do" was not "serious".
I haven't seen the kid turn up again in weeks. So I guess, we're just not "good enough". Ah well.

Perhaps if I had "beat them up and hurt them good" on their first lesson they would have been convinced of the "effectiveness" of aikido. Totally counter to the entire philosophy, but nonetheless a necessary "marketing evil".

I dunno.....I just dunno.... :)

Usagi
05-24-2005, 01:10 AM
There are various levels of "efficiency".

The whole issue "competition: to be or not to be" is exactly over this.

When you have competition people tend to make a confusion; they tend to believe that testing a technique with a partner equals fighting with an opponent.

It is like saying that picking up vegetables at the local supermarket is just the same as recognizing them among other plants in a desert island at which you are lost.

It may seem similar, but the consequences of each action are far more dangerous.

In real combat size, strength and technique are of lesser relevance; it is the proper mindset and willingness to go as far as turns out to be necessary that make the difference (and luck too!).

For this reason some school thought unwise to allow their students to keep a practice that might lead them to see combat as being the same as dueling over victory.

But since modern martial artists are basically a bunch of guys who like to train in skills that they never actually use (even those in police and military, as contexts change), new ways of evaluating were emphasized, one of them being competition.

As mentioned by Mr Ignatius, the background of those students maybe made Aikido incomprehensible to them.

Actually, even if you had "showed them" i don't believe that they would get the idea...

About some claims within this topic over fitness...well, i apologize for the next lines, that are kind of "preaching", but i must say that i worry about it...alot.

Basically i lost my father because he allowed himself to lose his health over bad habits, like over caloric diet and lack of exercise.

I see people over and over again explaining me how the have hormonal problems or genetic disposition to gain weigh...sorry, but the human body doesn't convert O into fat; it needs extra income of food.

And from a martial perspective i tend to believe that it is easier to train with a lighter body.

Extra pounds necessarily mean eating more than necessary and pushing the heart a little too hard..why not be kinder to our own bodies? And exercise some frugality in the process?

This is not something unique to Aikido...it is very common to athletes, after ending their competitive careers to gain weigh and lose some stamina...it is like if they had lost their motivation to keep a balance between eating and exercising.

I am not talking about six-pack abs.

I am talking about keeping a sharp eye for cholesterol, diabetes, flexibility, cardio-respiratory adaptive responses...in one word: HEALTH.

I don't think someone who trains Aikido should end his days with a cardio condition, diabetes and/or stiff as a barrel...at least i'll try my best not to :)

xuzen
05-24-2005, 01:57 AM
Renato,

You have highlighted an important issue about Self-Defense that many in this forum ignored. Self Defense also include defense against illness and diseases.

I see people around me living in such unhealthy state all the time. Some of my customers (I work in the health-care business), being over-weight and pretty unfit, come to see me for advise about some quick fix to their weight problems. They expect some magical pills, slimming creams, wonderful gizmo that they hope when attached to their stomach and a power outlet will produce some super electro magnetics field that will exercise the muscle and burn fats while watching more TV or play more PS2 and munching away more potato crisps.

Despite telling them the truth that exercise and healthy diet will probably do wonders to their body, these people are still clinging onto fantasies.

I know, we are losing the battle of the bulge, but I try anyway... <sigh>.

Boon.

ikkitosennomusha
05-24-2005, 09:30 AM
Hi there! I feel everyone has done a great job answering your question so instead of breaking down your statements and concernes as previously done, let me say a word.

Basically this is a dilema between aikido and lets say, karate. You might ask yourself what are some differences whitout getting too technical. Lets explore that for a moment.

We will start with karate. Karate as we know is a form of self defense (I do not wish to refer to an MA as combat) that is stacatto in nature and classical in style. This hand to hand denfense is classical because it is probably one of the very first systems of defense. I find this method crude for several reasons. In karate, the strongest and fastest will always prevail. Also, anytime your center is unstable, it is too easy to take. What I mean is when karate guy throw you a kick and that foot comes off the ground, nothing more than a litle nudge will send him to the ground by way of several physical properties but the main thing is that your aiki skill is there to understand how to do this properly. In karate, the blocks and deflections are dated as well. when someone come in shomenuchi with a tanto and a karate person comes in with a high block, flesh will be severed in the forearm region (in theory).

Does this mean I feel karate is all together bad? Of course not. I would like to see small children start out in karate to learn there kicks and punches so they can already be a good uke. Granted they will have to unlearn what they have learned but I believe that for young kids, karate is a good place to start so that when they are ready for aikido, there will be something there to work with and they will gradually understand the diffrerence.

There are other MA like Jujitsu where grappling is key. I could go on and point some things out but others have probably already touched on this issue.

Aikido is more than a MA, it is a way of life. Aikido is something useable and practical even when you do reach geriatric years. This mean it is a life long art that is applicable. I cannot image me being able to do a spinning back kick at 95 but aiki principles are useable at any age. I find, me personally, aikido to be the most effective ideology. To each there own and whatever works for you but, aikido, again in my opinion, is 99% flawless only because it would be ridiculous to say 100% of anyting is unflawed.

In aikido, I can initiate a conflict as well as anyone else so saying that I have to wait upon the attacker is unfound. Also, aikido is spiritual in nature to bring you in harmony with nautre,yourself, the world, your surroundings, etc. and is good for your health and immunity. etc.

Yes, aikido takes time and patience and is a life long study and the results do not come quick like in karate but it is well worth the endeavor (I will not elaborate on why I feel karate is like going through a drive through). One could go on and on as to why aikido is worth the study. Good luck with the criticism and if you keep training, you will be in a better place than your foes.

I hopes this helps a little and does not offend karate advocates.

sjhill1980
05-24-2005, 10:02 AM
I dont want to sound bad or nothing but im sick of people saying how in effective aikido is i have been a bouncer in a night club for 5 yrs and the first 2 yrs i had no aikido training just wing chun and tae kwon do. After 3 yrs of aikido my whole concept has changed instead of squaring of with people and being a hot head all the time i am now alot more calm and centered. Trust me from somebody who see's alot of action on a regular basis aikido works very well and i invite anyone who doubts it to come to our dojo and tell my sensei it dont work and let them find for themselves. I read a great quote on here once and I loved it "Your Aikido doesnt work mine seems to be working feine"

ChrisHein
05-24-2005, 12:28 PM
There are many things about learning Aikido that are truly useful. I won't get into any of the non martial of them (however there are lots and lots!) I will only discuss the martial. It is ineffective to talk about fighting from an unarmed stand point. If your life is really on the line (the only time you should consider fighting for real) you or your attacker are going to be armed, and likely both of you. This means that you or they will probably have a stick, or knife. No one uses swords anymore, is a pretty valid statement, however lots of people use baseball bats, or pool cues, or chair legs, etc etc, many of the techniques in Aiki sword work, and the techniques to deal with swords while empty handed translate perfectly to being attacked with these weapons. Aikido is a weapons system, and weapons are how mankind fight when they are not toying about. Other fights not involving weapons are generally not serious matters, they are some kind of ego contest, and show of male bravado. These things are best kept to a ring, where it's a nice safe environment to compete in such a manor. Real fighting involves getting something done: taking your money, taking your wife, taking your life. That is what real fighting is about, I'm always armed, I never fight.

-Chris Hein

Red Beetle
06-02-2005, 12:14 AM
Guys,

Here is just the obvious. I know plenty of guys that do not train in any Martial system. They almost never get into any violent situations either. Doesn't mean they won't, but most of the time we are not whipping the guy next to us. One interesting stat claimed that most people would be in a position where their life would be threatened with physicl force at least once in their life time.

I teach and I train for many reasons. One of the most important reasons is that training in Aikido, Jiu-jitsu, and Judo is simply a lot of fun!!! You meet people you would not meet in other sports or activities. One of my friends, who is an expert at Brazilian Jiu-jitsu, swears that something has to be mentally wrong with a person who wishes to train in Jiu-jitsu or Judo (because those systems can be so very un-gentle). I often joke about what that guy was smoking when he came up with the name JUdo. Perhaps, he had a talent for sarcasm. No, Judo can be gentle. For example, after you've been choked out, you usually have nice dreams. I am going to get in trouble, so I am going to be quiet now. :D

Red Beetle
www.kingsportjudo.com

Sonja2012
06-02-2005, 01:50 AM
"Aikido doesn't require fitness so most aikido players are old, fat and not strong enough"
" you can not attack in aikido you just receiving and waiting what the attackers will do"
" many aikido techniques depend on grabbing which is rarely happen in real fights"
" aikido focuses on hands to applying its techniques and ignores the rest of the body, no kicks no punches no jumping"
" aikido is only good for seminars and demonstrations"
" aikido is too traditional, no body use sword in our world today"
" aikido is a philosophy more than a combat way"
etc……


Heehee :D All I can say is: Don´t waste your time justifying aikido.

Michael Meister
06-02-2005, 03:14 AM
Heehee :D All I can say is: Don´t waste your time justifying aikido.

Good point. There is only one basic reason, why you should practice Aikido, that one being, you enjoy it. everything else is secondary.

aikigirl10
06-12-2005, 06:27 PM
Being in good shape is the choice of the individual. If you can be in bad shape and still do aikido then more power to you. Of course , being in shape can make everything easier.

stratos patsakis
07-12-2005, 05:39 PM
why people are not open minded?aikido is a very good martial art!most martial arts masters here in greece think the same waY!why?if a martial art has something to teach me i will practise it even if i'm teaching taekwondo or hapkido or karate or anything!!!if you want to punch and kick it's not diffucult!!if you combine aikido with punches and kicks it will be so effective!!!i believe that many aikido masters have thought this and teach this way!!steven seagal is a very good example!!!!don't say that aikido is not good beacause it has no punch and kick!!!think that taekwondo has only kicking!!!!so taekwondo is useless too?no!you combine taekwondo kicks with boxing so you are very good fighter!and if you change a little bit the way you kick like thai boxing kicks then it's very good!
so somebody will ask me what about groundfighting?if we continue like this we must learn 10 differenet martial arts!!!please martial people be open minden and try new things and practise them with different ways!all martial arts have something to give to us!

wxyzabc
07-12-2005, 07:30 PM
I would say dont waste your time discussing the effectiveness of aikido....if you're unlucky one day you will find out for yourself whether it works for you or not..

Lee

theflyingheadbuttsuplex
07-12-2005, 11:50 PM
Hi every 1
Actually the title is an advice from some martial artists who I meet weekly in our dojo. We have many different martial arts sessions going every day in that dojo like karate, taekwando, judo, jeet kune do and kung fu (wing chun). we always talk about martial arts and their effectiveness in real situations like street fighting.

They almost made me desperate and disappointed of Aikido.
Here are some of their quotations:
"Aikido doesn't require fitness so most aikido players are old, fat and not strong enough"
" you can not attack in aikido you just receiving and waiting what the attackers will do"
" many aikido techniques depend on grabbing which is rarely happen in real fights"
" aikido focuses on hands to applying its techniques and ignores the rest of the body, no kicks no punches no jumping"
" aikido is only good for seminars and demonstrations"
" aikido is too traditional, no body use sword in our world today"
" aikido is a philosophy more than a combat way"
etc……

I didn't lose my faith in aikido, but between u and me aren't they have right in some thoughts???

Is aikido useful and effective in real situation and against other martial arts?

........ :straightf


These people you speak of know nothing about aikido. What makes their words valid? :confused:

I think all of these are people pushing you down to feel better about themselves. Rather than strive to progress, they feed their egos by pushing you down. :rolleyes:

Kevin Leavitt
07-13-2005, 03:24 PM
I would disagree that the time to find out if something works is when you face physical violence. The time to find out is to train properly in realisitc training if this is your cup of tea, or concern.

I don't really study aikido much to prepare me for a "real fight (tm)". I study it to make me a better martial artist, which in turn prepares me to be a better more balance person, which prepares me to deal with conflict. I study other things to be good at fighting skills. (if that makes sense! :))

theflyingheadbuttsuplex
07-14-2005, 10:36 PM
........ :straightf


These people you speak of know nothing about aikido. What makes their words valid? :confused:

I think all of these are people pushing you down to feel better about themselves. Rather than strive to progress, they feed their egos by pushing you down. :rolleyes:
Please note that this was refering to the people that khaled was describing. NOT to the people posting on this thread.

Randathamane
07-17-2005, 12:23 AM
Aikido <takes a deep breath>

Lets set the record strait...... Here we go.

“Aikido doesn’t require fitness so most aikido players are old, fat and not strong enough”


Try taking a grading above 4th kyu in a non fit state. aikido takes allot of movement to do- lots of movement requires allot of energy. Lots of energy expenditure is good for keeping in shape and getting fit if it is expended in the right way. Any aikido sensei can get you fit- all you have to do is Ukemi for an hour or so plus something dynamicc like Iriminage Ura for another hour for 3 weeks straight (PLEASE GOD SENSEIDON'TT READ THIS [ because he will make me do it]).

aikido itself teaches us that strength is not an issue if you want to escape someone. The best tactical solution is always where you reap the highest gain for the lowest cost.Therefor- in most situations when the MikeTyson equivalent gets annoyed at you- retreat is always a valid and honorable option.


“ you can not attack in aikido you just receiving and waiting what the attackers will do”


You can attack. don't follow the technique through- break it off half way when Uke is off balancee or has been re-directed and lamp them one. Besides, it can be argued that throwing somebody to the floor is an attack. Initially the aikidoka redirect on the defensive, take the initiative of battle and attack using a technique. Only at the completion can another tell you what the technique is.Ikkyo and Gokyo are identical up to the submission, which is only at the end.


“ many aikido techniques depend on grabbing which is rarely happen in real fights”


Grabbing simulates "real attacks". For example, Gyakuhanmi simulatesTsuki whilst Aihanmi represents and effectively simulates shomen or Yokomen strikes. Such attacks as Lapell grabs or Ryokata are valid in their own right as they are more likely to happen as a preparation for a strike. Grabbing as it were is only the first step.


“ aikido focuses on hands to applying its techniques and ignores the rest of the body, no kicks no punches no jumping”


Your hands are your most dexterous limbs. you can aim a jab with pinpoint precision, whilst kicks in comparison are slow and cumbersome- however if they connect, far more effective- but its getting them to connect. Punches ARE present in aikido in the form of atemi, which can be put in anytime you have a hand free. Literally.
As for jumping..... well woopie doo. Look at me i am a flying target with no control over my direction whilst in the air, whilst at the same time being very predictable in my flight pattern, helpless to my flanks and rear (mostly unless spinning of course) and i am invariably going to land which will require both my legs meaning that i cannot move for that split second. Great..... Or you could just step somewhere..... :confused:


“ aikido is only good for seminars and demonstrations”


BEEEEEEEP.... Wrong answer. Osensei studied every martial art he could get his ambitious mind about and cherry picked the best bits- in a sense filtering out the rubbish. If it didn't work, they would not teach it to the Japanese police, would they..... Besides, i am sure there are others on this site that can give personal examples of its effectiveness.


“ aikido is too traditional, no body use sword in our world today”

This is coming for the Kung fu genius that took all their ideas from animals. Aikido has looked into the way humans move and fight. yes nobody would use the sword in this day and age, but try this. Take a knife and stab a cloth or something. Now take the knife away and do the same thing. What do you get?
A closed fist traveling forwards at great speed. you get a punch. doesn't seem so pointless now does it. Aiki ken was established as a training tool- the art itself came first. Ultimately, at the beginning, aikido was about one swordsman throwing another. if you take the swords away, the move still works. the movements are the same, just without the blood and mess.


“ aikido is a philosophy more than a combat way”

Any martial art that has a DO in it is, by definition the same and suffers the same flaw. Jitsu is the down to earth, get the job done art.


Phew. glad thats over.......


:ai: :ki: :do:

Shahryn
07-22-2005, 10:57 PM
To Khaled's point about the (street) effectiveness of aikido, someone said "Aikido works - yours doesn't!"

Very simple comment but oh, so true!

Like anything you do - darts, piano, fixing your car - the more you do it (i.e. 'practice'), the better you will get at it. Does anyone know new karatekas or judokas who instantly become 'great' at their art?

As for old men and fat guys, I would love to see 55 year old guys take up karate and be as effective against younger guys as 55 year old newbies who train and take on younger aikidokas.

Peace, you guys!

aikijoel
07-23-2005, 11:02 AM
Khaled just keep on training. I've heard those kinds of comments about aikido from my friends who practice diff MA but for me whether its taekwondo,,judo,hapkido etc... its all good we are all climbing the same mountain.

peace

dyffcult
07-23-2005, 10:50 PM
First off, I have not read all replies to this post, so if the following is redundant, forgive me.

I had not actively trained for over three years before I had the first chance to “use” my aikido. My law office had just witnessed our client convicted of second degree murder because of the kicking death of a young man. That same night I saw my then brother in law “posturing” with another young man at the bar. They walked outside. The other guy sucker punched my brother in law, who fell to the ground. The other guy then started kicking him. The next thing I knew, I had the guy down in a shoulder lock and was telling his buddy to back off or I would break his shoulder. At the time, I had not actively practiced in a dojo for a few years and was only ranked as a nikyu.

Without further training....

A few years later, I was at a KISS concert when some idiot felt the need to be belligerent to every person in his vicinity. After about the third body slam, I turned around, had him on the ground and his opponent by the throat. I asked them if they were through being pains in the ass and they both agreed to behave. I enjoyed the rest of the concert.

So I would have to say that practicing aikido is not a waste of time.

I do believe that it takes a bit of time and practice to reach the point where one can use aikido for self defense. However, having used aikido on more than one occasion to protect myself or others – without having reached a dan rank – I do believe that aikido works wonderfully for self defense.

CNYMike
07-24-2005, 11:25 AM
^^ Thanks for the stories, Brenda. At the end of the day, I think the real question is, will it work for you in the real world when you need it? If the answer is "yes," then nothing else matters. You can argue about what should and should not work, but when someone pops up and says "it does," that's the end of the discussion for me.

Kutisake
07-24-2005, 02:06 PM
Hey,Khaled! U say nobody uses sword in our world today? But did u watch "Kill Bill"? :)

villrg0a
05-28-2006, 07:28 AM
Aikido doesn’t require fitness so most aikido players are old, fat and not strong enough”
My sensei is not fat but can still throw 2 people at the same time.

you can not attack in aikido you just receiving and waiting what the attackers will do”
ahhh, in Yoshinkan aikido, the shite attacks!

“ many aikido techniques depend on grabbing which is rarely happen in real fights”
Grabbing simulates a punch, for me its just the same.

“ aikido focuses on hands to applying its techniques and ignores the rest of the body, no kicks no punches no jumping”
Locks are supposed to be applied in a way that it affects the wrists, elbow, shoulder, spine and finally the knees, if it is properly done you dont need to kick and punch :)

“ aikido is only good for seminars and demonstrations”
Because aikido is good!

“ aikido is too traditional, no body use sword in our world today”
My sensei still uses his sword :)

“ aikido is a philosophy more than a combat way” etc……
all the orignal combative techniques to kill are not gone, its hidden in all the basic techniques and goes out whenever needed :)

RoyK
05-28-2006, 10:35 AM
Salaam Khaled! I keep asking myself those questions as well. Here are some of my answers:
From my short experience, some Dojos may not teach Aikido as a self defense first and foremost. But every kind of Aikido teaches you to be alert, calm, and roll away to safety when needed, which is most of the times a better solution than standing ground and fighting. So even if it's not geared towards self defense, it might actually be more effective than you can think or measure.

But not all dojos are like that. My instructor is big on self defense, and he says that O'Sensei was one of the greatest warriors of his time, and undefeated. He formulated this Martial Art, used it succesfuly, his students used it succesfuly, so who can claim it doesn't work?

statisticool
05-28-2006, 10:57 AM
No one uses the sword.

Feel free to replace it with a golf club, baseball bat, stick, broom, Swiffer, etc., and see if the techniques change. :)

CNYMike
05-28-2006, 11:39 AM
I know I put my two cents in before, but I can't resist doing it again.

Aikido doesn't require fitness so most aikido players are old, fat and not strong enough"
My sensei is not fat but can still throw 2 people at the same time.


Same here. Furthermore, the mere fact of having to get up ~200 times during a practice helps me work up a sweat; it's the hardest thing I do right now!


you can not attack in aikido you just receiving and waiting what the attackers will do"
ahhh, in Yoshinkan aikido, the shite attacks!


Other brances, too, although sometime this is symbolized by starting from hanmi; extending ki can be considered being a ste ahead, it seems. Morote Dori has also been taught as uke grabbing nage's attack and nage then goes to the aiki buffet.


" many aikido techniques depend on grabbing which is rarely happen in real fights"
Grabbing simulates a punch, for me its just the same.



And don't forget shomen cuhi, yokomenuchi, and punches which don't involve grabbing anything.


" aikido focuses on hands to applying its techniques and ignores the rest of the body, no kicks no punches no jumping"
Locks are supposed to be applied in a way that it affects the wrists, elbow, shoulder, spine and finally the knees, if it is properly done you dont need to kick and punch :)


Ahhh, I wouldn't mess around with leg locks unless someone had taught you leg locks -- you may think they're the same but they'r'e not. OTOH, no jumping? Whaddya call a flying breakfall, then?


..... " aikido is too traditional, no body use sword in our world today"
My sensei still uses his sword :)


Nobody in the USA in AD 2006 uses a stick in their right hand and a knife in their left, either, but that doesn't stop FMA people from doing espada y daga. Aikido's body mechanics come from Japanese swordsmanship, so that is good to know.

SeiserL
05-28-2006, 02:01 PM
You're right, don't "waste" your time practicing Aikido, make full use of it.

George S. Ledyard
05-28-2006, 02:19 PM
You're right, don't "waste" your time practicing Aikido, make full use of it.
Very nice, Lynn!

Lyle Bogin
05-30-2006, 09:18 AM
Recent converstation I had:

"...but aikido is fake. It's not really fighting."

"that's exactly why I feel like I can practice it."

DudSan
05-30-2006, 01:12 PM
Oh! The same old song.
Well, talking about real life:
“Aikido doesn’t require fitness so most aikido players are old, fat and not strong enough”
Not exactly. I have been in Aikido classes that have been more strenuos for my body than Karate classes, for example. But
a) YOU can look for a better physical conditioning without hanging on the art for receiving it. Just make more exercise at home or gym.
b) If this talk about physical is true, then AIkido is a more universal art, because it can give a surviving chance to elder persons, physically weaker human beings and other 'easy targets' that violence choose with preference. A thug is a coward, he will pick up on a weaker prey, not on a strong athlete.
“ you can not attack in aikido you just receiving and waiting what the attackers will do”
a) Depends on Sensei: I was taught to preemptively strike when necessary BUT we are not waiting passively. No. We are receiving his energy and redirecting it against himself. This is not passive at all. This is a very useful concept. And for the weaker person it is great not to depend on the force of muscle to defend herself, but to rely on the momentum of the aggressor who willl crash against the wall thanx to a good Tenkan.
I am not so strong, for example. When I see big Golems on the street, I thank God that I don´t rely in my punching power only against them. I rely too on their own momentum and their articulations, thanx to AIkido.
“ many aikido techniques depend on grabbing which is rarely happen in real fights”
Hmmmm? These guys really know their business huh? What degree are they in Aikido? None? How can they speak about something they don´t know well?
a) What about the Chudan Tsuki, Shomen Uchi, Yokomen Uchi, etc. that YOU make in your Dojo? Are those grabs????
b) And who said that in a fight there is not grabbing? When persons tend to close the range, what happens?
“ aikido focuses on hands to applying its techniques and ignores the rest of the body, no kicks no punches no jumping”
a) Atemi is 70% of Aikido in the street: remember. All the time we are taught to hit on the middle of control, and kicks are included in many Aikido programms. But again depends on Sensei.
b) By the way, ask the older fighters. They will tell you that Kicking is dangerous on real situations. And jumping????? No comments!!!!! Having both feet well grounded is the more wise attitude on a real fight, man! These guys have ever fought on reality?
“ aikido is only good for seminars and demonstrations”
a) Bull Butter. The testimony of many persons around the world negates that.
b) Besides is good for Self DEVELOPMENT. This is important.
“ aikido is too traditional, no body use sword in our world today”
a) And cutting attacks? Sure are they gone? Have you heard of machete attacks? I do.
b) Besides, with a Bokken you make attacks that are similar to a iron lead to the head, very street like.
My Gosh! Make an apliccation of what you train! Is all in the street!
“ aikido is a philosophy more than a combat way”
etc……
Is a philosophy of no - combat? True. Is not a combat way? True. is useless for Self Defense, false.
About effectivity against other martial arts: is not devised for fighting, against NO ONE. But if you are not in the wrong place (tenkan) they can not hit you, ay? I have succesfully avoided Wing Chun, Kali and other MA´s attacks with Tenkan after Tenkan. There is a moment when they always say: Let me hit you! :D And by the way, my two best training partners are
a) a Brown Belt active Karate practitioner
b) A brown Belt ex Ju Jitsu practitioner, with experience in FMAs and other arts.
All the others have previous experience in other Martial Arts. And this is a common situation in the whole world. In fact the first generation of AIkidoist was composed of skilled Budo warriors. Why do these persons like AIkido then?
They like Aikido, and they have tested it´s efficiency.

Man, is up to you. If YOU want to learn AIkido, learn it. If YOU don´t like Aikido, drop it. But don´t let OTHERS to decide about your life. Everything here is personal.

Hope this helps
Your friend
DudSan

DonMagee
05-31-2006, 12:57 PM
I didn't lose my faith in aikido, but between u and me aren't they have right in some thoughts???

Is aikido useful and effective in real situation and against other martial arts?

Why can't you decide for yourself if aikido is effective? Do you need other people to confirm your beliefs for you? Ask yourself these questions.

1) Why am I training in martial arts?
2) Why did I choose my current martial art?
3) What do I expect to get out of my current martial art?
4) What am I getting (or what do I feel I'm getting) out of my current martial art?

Be honest with yourself. Are your results and reasons matching up? If they don't, or you are unsure then ask yourself these questions.

1) Have I voiced my concerns to my instructor?
2) What changes do I feel would fix the problems I perceive in my training?
3) Have I explored other styles/arts and seen if what they are doing is matching with what I believe is missing from my training?
4) If I am unsure, what do I need to do to prove to myself I am getting what I want out of my training?

Again, be honest. If you can't tell your instructor then you really need to concern yourself with why you can't talk freely about your wants/desires/beliefs. If you honestly don't know, then don't be afraid to admit that to yourself either. Maybe you need to go exploring, its ok, aikido will be there for you when you get back.

My personal opinion is that if you want to be good at fighting, aikido is probably not the martial art for you. Its training methods do not lend themselves to learning how to fight. But I'm also not sure that is the point of aikido. I believe that in order to learn how to fight, you have to fight. And fight a lot. Arts like boxing, judo, bjj, mauy thai, etc lend themselves to this. Arts like ninjitsu, aikido, Japanese jiujitsu etc, don't seem to lend themselves to the training you need to learn how to fight. Its more of a personal growth thing. Sure there are martial techniques, and you might very well become a bad ass fighter. But I don't think that is a common occurrence.

Hi every 1

"Aikido doesn't require fitness so most aikido players are old, fat and not strong enough"

Is it aikido that makes them fat and weak, or is it the lack of respect they have for their bodies? People are fat and weak because they choose not to take care of themselves (or are unable to with growing age, or injury). Sure you cant' expect a 70 year old man to bench 300 pounds and run 10 miles a day. But that doesn't' matter if he is a Judo master, or a aikido shihan. Fat people are just fat people, I'm sure a lot of them are drawn to arts that require them to do as little physical work as possible. And some aikido caters to this.


" you can not attack in aikido you just receiving and waiting what the attackers will do"


Is your purpose to be a fighter, this should be plenty fine if you only have to defend yourself.


" many aikido techniques depend on grabbing which is rarely happen in real fights"

I hope to god the judo guy didn't say this to you. That would indeed be funny.

"aikido is a philosophy more than a combat way" And what is wrong with this?



As an aside. Someone in this thread said these things

"You're training for competition in which there are rules, so you are actually training not to use full force or power when punching and kicking. I hope this doesn't come back to hurt you in a fight when you 'punch' someone and give them a little tap for the 'point'.

I train in something where there is very little competition because it is too dangerous not to know what your opponent is doing...after all, if we killed all our training partners then where would we be?"

I feel these are cop-out responses just as bad as the things he was told (But maybe that was your point). Are you saying Judo guys don't train and spar full force? When I throw you in competition I'm attempting to throw you so hard you cant' get back up. When I punch you, I'm punching you. Sure thats not true of most karate or TKD. But don't think its all tip tap point sparing. A lot of martial arts train full force, very little in unarmed combat is 'too deadly'.

Mato-san
06-06-2006, 09:46 AM
Every art has its strengths and its weakness. I agree with what was said very early in the post that Aikido takes a long time to learn, so ppl diss it because they can`t devote themselves to a big stint or even come to checking it out because they just want a "black belt" status ,something that they will not aquire quickly in Aikido. I would like a poll on how many MA ppl turned to aikido vs how many Aikido ppl turned to alternative arts.

Gernot Hassenpflug
06-13-2006, 11:16 PM
David Yap made the critical point, namely that in Asian martial arts there is something missing: the combatative uses were replaced by discipline-instilling training much like rugby in the British-centric world. Giving an outlet for energy, training for obedience in society, and so forth. But the real part of the arts is kept alive not at public schools but within a small group of experts, and they don't care about all the other thousands doing their physical thing. If you see this pattern, you can start to look for the knowledge that is there but not to be found easily.

Lyn Seisser makes the comment I was thinking of too: spend your time looking for how to stand, how your body works, and try to touch the best teachers to get an idea of what the big fuss is about.

Good luck!

topan tantudo
06-14-2006, 01:33 AM
Hi everyone

about all that Khaled wrote. Why don't we make a big fight against all martial art and let them judge about Aikido and another martial arts.

just a suggestion.

Dieter Haffner
06-14-2006, 03:40 AM
Some people waste their time watching television.
Some people waste their time collecting stamps.
...
Some people waste their time practicing aikido.
...
Some people waste their time playing football.
Some people waste their time reading this board.

As long as we have fun.

ksy
07-03-2006, 02:55 AM
Some people waste their time watching television.
Some people waste their time collecting stamps.
...
Some people waste their time practicing aikido.
...
Some people waste their time playing football.
Some people waste their time reading this board.

As long as we have fun.

for those of you below 18 years of age, please seek consent of adult supervison before reading.


Man, more than that. gotta say something - I took aikido abt a month back, been slacking for the past few years. couldn't even handle the first 10 mins of the warm-up. improved a bit since then and I don't know if it's the aikido or the physical aikido exercises or that i'm a bit more relaxed nowadays with my partner but the quality of my sex life has been going great guns. i love staying centered when i'm doing it (sorry if i sound naughty saying it but it's true!), especially at the "end". umm-mmmmm....

sorry if the sexual nature of my message offended anyone but i'm feel a bit more alive and am finding new ways to apply aikido "beyond the dojo". just curious cause there's not a lot of "sex" in aikido articles but i really think aikido helps (heaps!). i love this art(its martial side, physical and philosophical side as well). can't wait for my classes tomorrow. later...

p-s wonder if the aikido historians among you would know if o-sensei had a particular stand on sex?

xuzen
07-03-2006, 03:37 AM
Man, more than that. gotta say something - I took aikido abt a month back, been slacking for the past few years. couldn't even handle the first 10 mins of the warm-up. improved a bit since then and I don't know if it's the aikido or the physical aikido exercises or that i'm a bit more relaxed nowadays with my partner but the quality of my sex life has been going great guns.
D@MN! This will make the makers of Viagra (TM) very alarmed!!!

p-s wonder if the aikido historians among you would know if o-sensei had a particular stand on sex?
I don't think O'sensei was very public about his sex life.

Boon.

CNYMike
07-03-2006, 10:53 AM
for those of you below 18 years of age, please seek consent of adult supervison before reading.


<checks license> 41. Ook, I'm safe. Just. ;)


Man, more than that. gotta say something - I took aikido abt a month back, been slacking for the past few years. couldn't even handle the first 10 mins of the warm-up. improved a bit since then and I don't know if it's the aikido or the physical aikido exercises or that i'm a bit more relaxed nowadays with my partner but the quality of my sex life has been going great guns. i love staying centered when i'm doing it (sorry if i sound naughty saying it but it's true!), especially at the "end". umm-mmmmm....


Um, well, I have long considered martial arts training to be serendipitous, that is whatever the reasons you have for starting it, you will, over time get something completely different out of it.

This is the first time I've heard of something like this.


sorry if the sexual nature of my message offended anyone but i'm feel a bit more alive and am finding new ways to apply aikido "beyond the dojo". just curious cause there's not a lot of "sex" in aikido articles but i really think aikido helps (heaps!). i love this art(its martial side, physical and philosophical side as well). can't wait for my classes tomorrow. later...


Uh, good for you. But I think we can do without any posts to the gallery. :p :)


p-s wonder if the aikido historians among you would know if o-sensei had a particular stand on sex?

John Stevens' The Secrets of Aikido has a chapter that refers to the "sacred union of male and female." I'm not sure if your, um, situation is what that refers to, though.

Luc X Saroufim
07-03-2006, 10:59 AM
i love staying centered when i'm doing it (sorry if i sound naughty saying it but it's true!), especially at the "end". umm-mmmmm....

i don't follow. please describe in much more detail. :straightf

dps
07-03-2006, 11:08 AM
I agree that one should not waste your time practicing AIKIDO.
Time is a valuable nonrefundable commodity. When you are practicing Aikido, don't waste your time, keep moving, practice.

ksy
07-04-2006, 02:00 AM
i don't follow. please describe in much more detail. :straightf

not sure if ther's anything to describe. just like how people focus and center in a dojo (like breathing into imaginery point below the navel), i try to reach the same psychological level in the bedroom. Imaginery or not, when i let the pressure of the head and shoulders flow into that point, i feel a lot more "connected" to my partner, although from a physical viewpoint nothing has changed.

not much that i can explain as i'm pretty new. but from a newbie's point of view - i've read in these threads about how akido has helped people reaalign their thoughts, deal with social problems, gave their life a new dimension, clearer focus etc but i've never heard anyone say it's improved the quality of their sex life. well, yes, i think it does.

It could be a combo of everything that has brought me to this position. I used to be an angry/moody person and I notice that i get angry a lot less these days. Not sure how long this calm will last but i hope it will. Right now, i'm trying to do more than practice aikido in the training hall. slowly, i'm trying to treat other areas of my life as a "dojo" so i can do aikido wherever i am. cheers!

gdandscompserv
07-05-2006, 07:47 PM
Is aikido useful and effective in real situation and against other martial arts?
i don't know.
i only know that i can't stop doing it! :D

gdandscompserv
07-05-2006, 07:50 PM
p-s wonder if the aikido historians among you would know if o-sensei had a particular stand on sex?
O-Sensei was a man.

ksy
07-07-2006, 01:59 AM
Re: Don't waste your time practicing AIKIDO
Kong Seng Yuan wrote:
p-s wonder if the aikido historians among you would know if o-sensei had a particular stand on sex?

O-Sensei was a man.

i know these 2 uncles. both of them have very differing attitudes towards women. If you have a point, it'll be nice if you could share. :circle:

James Sawers
05-01-2012, 01:34 AM
I believe that studying Aikido is a requirement for Tokyo police officers......enough said.


In Good Practice...

Jim

www.nothing-works.com

Chris Li
05-01-2012, 03:03 AM
I believe that studying Aikido is a requirement for Tokyo police officers......enough said.

In Good Practice...

Jim

www.nothing-works.com

Not Aikikai Aikido :D

Anyway, so is Kendo - your point is?

Best,

Chris

lbb
05-01-2012, 07:46 AM
Don't waste your time responding to a five-year-old comment in a six-year-old thread?

Walter Martindale
05-01-2012, 10:22 AM
Don't waste your time responding to a five-year-old comment in a six-year-old thread?

ZOMBIE THREAD

BRAINS!!!
BRAINS!!!

:freaky:

reyne caritativo
05-02-2012, 04:57 AM
i believe that all techniques in any martial art system have weaknesses and flaws, and can be countered. the most important thing in a real-life fighting situation is not to panic and not lose your cool. if you do so, you'll be in a deep s$#t especially in a life threatening situation.

Alberto_Italiano
05-04-2012, 01:27 PM
Hi every 1

1 “Aikido doesn’t require fitness so most aikido players are old, fat and not strong enough”
2 “ you can not attack in aikido you just receiving and waiting what the attackers will do”
3 “ many aikido techniques depend on grabbing which is rarely happen in real fights”
4 “ aikido focuses on hands to applying its techniques and ignores the rest of the body, no kicks no punches no jumping”
5 “ aikido is only good for seminars and demonstrations”
6 “ aikido is too traditional, no body use sword in our world today”
7 “ aikido is a philosophy more than a combat way”
8 etc……


1) true in the sense most aikidokas don't feel that need (wrongly). However athletical fitness is something that ought to be pursued independently of your art and even sport of election. If you run 100mt, you still need to go to a gym in order to have those biceps and deltoids... which are not used for running... If you want Mike Tyson shoulders, boxing alone is not enough (compare Clay's muscles with Tyson's... same sport different athletical preparations).

2) true. Yet as far as fighting is concerned, there is nothing wrong with it: you get attacked, you react in a manner that is supposed to neutralize the attack - and if such a manner does the promised job without punching back, what's the problem with that? The really wrong part with it is that, being so, ukes (those who simulate attacks) are a piece of cake to say the least... the real critic here should have sounded: all aikido ukes attack using only one arm... they have only one... oh and they can't turn on their hips... oh and cannot jump on their toes... oh and are pretty slow... oh and they have a regrettable tendency to lose their balance because of a mere whisper... it's like fighting with an attacker who suffers a severe form of arthritis...

3) true. In a real situation a guy who, in order to beat you, grabs your wrist is so rare to be a blue herring, and if for some funny reason a guy who knows how to fight grabs your wrist, a punch in your face will follow at light speed (with the second arm... real attackers have two arms, for some funny reason I cannot fathom) - you won't be able to place even the ghost of a nikkyo on that...
As for grappling, instead it is very common from incompetent attackers.

4) true. However the whole point with aikido is to seize one of your arms - if nage manages to do that, the fight is over.

5) true. We see endless "demonstrations" that, actually, are only fabrications to hide the fact that if the attack wouldn't have been "demonstrative", most nages would have not known what to do with it.

6) False. It is not older than many other arts. It is true that no one uses swords, however guys still use sticks...

7) False. It is a only philosophy if those who teach it don't use it for combative purposes.

8) Very true: it is that etc which is most true in fact.

Keep in mind that also many Karate guys from our suburban dojos, black belts, would do very very poorly in a MMA match.

The only way to fight well is to fight against ruthless opponents often. There is no other road and unfortunately no dojos, aikido or whatever, will ever let you train that way.
You could easily cast the same objections at many other arts. It is that etc which is true: it all depends on how you practice.

Alberto_Italiano
05-04-2012, 02:23 PM
what the hack... this thread is not exactly recent....

Chris Evans
08-20-2012, 09:14 AM
Hi Khaled,

Honestly, Khaled, that's a tough question to answer. It is all about perception. I started doing karate when I was 14 years old, aikido when I was 36 and this is 12th year in aikido. I have been always been active in karate and only given up teaching 2 years ago: I wasn't convinced that my chief instructor had gained enlightenment to re-invent karate his way.

A hundred years ago karate was a complete art meaning it had grappling, throws and ground fighting beside the hand strikes and kicks but all that changed after the art was introduced into the public school system - it was "water-downed" to make it safe for school children (same for TKD which was a Korean re-invention of JKA style karate). 34 years ago, I thought I have picked the complete art but the only thing missing is a "complete" teacher.

So who are these "martial artists" who only trained in one art?

Peace be with you.

David Y

Karate did evolve to a more specialized way with less seizing, grappling, skills.

Non-wushu Shaolin influenced kung fu seems to retain grabbing and joint locks.

Here are some budo thoughts...

"The karate that has been introduced to Tokyo is actually a single part of a larger whole. The fact that those who have learned karate in Tokyo think that it consists only of hand strikes and kicks, and that throws and joint locks are only a part of jujutsu or judo can only be attributed to their lack of awareness on this art. " - Kenwa Mabuni, ca 1925,

In 1924, Kenwa Mabuni and Chojun Miyagi, were asked to take charge of the training sessions, even though they were still fairly young. During these sessions, actual kumite was stressed to increase their physical techniques and strength. It is said that, when a student wanted to learn more from a master, the master would simply invite the student to attack him freely, all the while, blocking and shifting his body while constantly asking the student, "Now, do you understand?" and encouraging them to attack, again and again.

"Conditioning is the greatest hold," and “…A man who neglects gym work is a man who is off balance and without the greatest weapon he can have …--conditioning, " said Karl Gotch, judoka.

The conclusion is that the problem is not aikido or karate, but the advanced karateka or aikidoka and the sensei who loses, or never gain, the martial ("killer*") spirit for sake of the convenient or the "art-ness". In the modern dojo, with all its costs and liability risks, budo must be water-downed to retain a wider range of fee paying students. The challenge is finding a dojo/gym that's alive with sensei (plural) that can also retain advanced karateka or aikidoka who relish punishing, practical, yet compassionate training. *One must be able to have the mindset to kill or be killed, when that's right, into order to cherish and save life.

Osu

Chris Evans
08-20-2012, 09:45 AM
1) true in the sense most aikidokas don't feel that need (wrongly). However athletical fitness is something that ought to be pursued independently of your art and even sport of election. If you run 100mt, you still need to go to a gym in order to have those biceps and deltoids... which are not used for running... If you want Mike Tyson shoulders, boxing alone is not enough (compare Clay's muscles with Tyson's... same sport different athletical preparations).

2) true. Yet as far as fighting is concerned, there is nothing wrong with it: you get attacked, you react in a manner that is supposed to neutralize the attack - and if such a manner does the promised job without punching back, what's the problem with that? The really wrong part with it is that, being so, ukes (those who simulate attacks) are a piece of cake to say the least... the real critic here should have sounded: all aikido ukes attack using only one arm... they have only one... oh and they can't turn on their hips... oh and cannot jump on their toes... oh and are pretty slow... oh and they have a regrettable tendency to lose their balance because of a mere whisper... it's like fighting with an attacker who suffers a severe form of arthritis...

3) true. In a real situation a guy who, in order to beat you, grabs your wrist is so rare to be a blue herring, and if for some funny reason a guy who knows how to fight grabs your wrist, a punch in your face will follow at light speed (with the second arm... real attackers have two arms, for some funny reason I cannot fathom) - you won't be able to place even the ghost of a nikkyo on that...
As for grappling, instead it is very common from incompetent attackers.

4) true. However the whole point with aikido is to seize one of your arms - if nage manages to do that, the fight is over.

5) true. We see endless "demonstrations" that, actually, are only fabrications to hide the fact that if the attack wouldn't have been "demonstrative", most nages would have not known what to do with it.

6) False. It is not older than many other arts. It is true that no one uses swords, however guys still use sticks...

7) False. It is a only philosophy if those who teach it don't use it for combative purposes.

8) Very true: it is that etc which is most true in fact.

Keep in mind that also many Karate guys from our suburban dojos, black belts, would do very very poorly in a MMA match.

The only way to fight well is to fight against ruthless opponents often. There is no other road and unfortunately no dojos, aikido or whatever, will ever let you train that way.
You could easily cast the same objections at many other arts. It is that etc which is true: it all depends on how you practice.

True!...

Keep in mind that also many Karate guys from our suburban dojos, black belts, would do very very poorly in a MMA match.

The only way to fight well is to fight against ruthless opponents often. There is no other road and unfortunately no dojos, aikido or whatever, will ever let you train that way.
You could easily cast the same objections at many other arts. It is that etc which is true: it all depends on how you practice

One karate dojo and another can do vastly different: I know, as I get to train at two karate dojo. If I had to limit to one, i'll choose the karate dojo that always practices on the mat, where I've had to pick myself up, limping from those leg-kicks (from gedan mawashi geri).

Osu

Chris Evans
08-20-2012, 11:17 AM
Some people waste their time watching television.
Some people waste their time collecting stamps.
...
Some people waste their time practicing aikido.
...
Some people waste their time playing football.
Some people waste their time reading this board.

As long as we have fun.

hah hah, well said.

RED
08-20-2012, 02:30 PM
I disagree with every single generalization that was made. You can be fat, but it is not advisable. I can find fat practioners in every art. Other than that, I won't do a point by point counter!

Agree with Jo's statement above!

Interestingly enough, I've seen students leave our Aikido school to try out other martial arts. For example a fella left for a few months and was training in some standing jujitsu and some southern style form of karate(forget the exact name of it). He came back to visit and train with us, because we keep friendly with everyone who walks in our doors mostly, and he was sweating his butt off, needing to take breaks in the middle of training. He said, "I forgot how much Aikido takes out of you! Practicing at my other dojo I'd barely ever wash my gi because I'd rarely sweat, but at this dojo I'm soaked!"

Fat or nonathletic... it really depends on the dojo. You can practice Aikido I think in a way that is low key... or you can throw down with the young bucks and get yourself some a dang good work out. Ukemi forms to fit the nage in my opinion. Most of my school's ukemi style actually requires a fair deal of flexibility, agility and cardio training to pull off... that's what the nage requires from their uke though in my school. It is different everywhere. Generalizations suck!

RED
08-20-2012, 02:33 PM
wait this is a zombie thread >_< foiled again!

Chris Evans
08-20-2012, 02:37 PM
wait this is a zombie thread >_< foiled again!

a phoenix thread discussing never ending truths. good stuff.

Kevin Leavitt
08-20-2012, 02:41 PM
wait this is a zombie thread >_< foiled again!

And u quoted me....I don't even remember when I wrote that!

RED
08-21-2012, 03:12 PM
And u quoted me....I don't even remember when I wrote that!

ARGG! :disgust:

Bengal107
08-24-2012, 07:26 PM
I think it's really easy to say Aikido doesn't work when you're not thinking. If you actually think about it, how can Aikido have so many federations and organizations around the world? How? Because people have used it in real situations. I just finished reading somewhere on the web that high caliber Judo practitioners from the time of O'Sensei switched-over to Aikido because they couldn't defeat the advanced Aikido practitioners. Even Jigoro Kano said to O'Sensei "This is Budo".

RobertMu
08-24-2012, 08:39 PM
I've read this whole thing, and realize that's it's years old. But, I have to chime in, if only because it seems every time I read something about Aikido online, it soon follows with someone saying it has no practical use. In fact, the main reason I shied away from Aikido for years was that an early instructor in my MA "career" (if you can call it that) said Aikido is "good for kids" but "no good for self-defense." So, consider this post directed to anyone trying to sort this out in the present or future. Anyway, I am now a newbie to Aikido and have to say how bogus I feel these statements to be. Here's why.

First, exactly how often are people finding themselves in street fights? And, why? In my life I have been in a few scuffles and have witnessed a few more. The best defense is to not put yourself in situations where fights will happen, and to have the strength of character to associate with the right people, and to not associate with people who will get you into fights. Aikido probably has as much or more to offer in terms of strength of character than most MAs. Arguably, age is the best tool for this. But, Aikido practioners, on the whole, I've found to be more grounded and mature people than I've met in the numerous other arts I've studied (various Kung Fu, Jujitsu, and American Kenpo). Of course there are exceptions, so this is only my experience and my general observation. No offense meant to anyone.

Second, have the people saying these things actually been in a street fight? I have. They are usually sloppy, ugly, and fueled by alcohol or drugs. Most of the time, they amount to pushing and shoving and maybe an obvious haymaker. Any martial art can help you defend against this type of "attack," but Aikido seems to me to be as good as any in dealing with this nonsense. I have yet to meet a truly skilled martial artist who goes around looking for people to beat up. I guess I've not run in the same circles as Mike Tyson.

Third, let's say you do get in a fight and you decide to use your karate or kung fu to really mess someone up. You break their arm or leg, or tear out an eye. This may have been fine in some pre-agrarian society or somesuch, but in civilized society, you are likely to find yourself on the receiving end of criminal or civil charges. You may end up in jail. So, which art is the most "practical" for modern, civil society? Again, Aikido makes sense to me (and is probably why it's taught to police).

Fourth, the primary threat that I concern myself with, and which seems to me to be the most germane to our times, is the threat of knife or gun violence in a robbery or rape type situation. Against a knife, your best bet is to run if you can, and if not, a swift kick to the nuts or a well-timed eye gouge. In other words, basic self-defense, not martial arts. Now, some MAs, particularly the Kenpo I took, do emphasize nut kicking and eye gouging. That said, you can easily train yourself to kick groins or poke eyeballs in your own home. It's not really an art, you know? If you do want to get fancy, I think Aikido has good disarming techniques. As for guns, your best bet is to throw your wallet and run. If the attack is about something else (like rape), then disarming is your best bet. I've never seen a gun disarming technique that will work 100% of the time. In fact, I'd say it's always a less than 50/50 proposition, but if it's all you've got, then I guess that's what you've got to do. Again, Aikido has some of the best techniques for this, IMO, matched only by Japanese Jujitsu (which, obviously, is related to Aikido). Get out of the line of fire, lock up the hand with the gun, and separate it from the attacker.

Fifth, fun. Personally, I think rolling around and being slammed to the mat is the most fun. It's also good exercise. Maybe all don't agree with that, which is fine. Do what you find to be fun.

Sixth, as a side benefit of all this rolling and slamming, I find that Aikido provides some measure of what's it's like to take a real hit without armor or padding. The only other arts where I've seen this are traditional Okinawan karate schools where they do body conditioning hits. Again, to each his own.

Seventh, time and again I read people saying that fights go to the ground. In my experience this is nonsense. I've witnessed a few skirmishes and fights, and only one went to the ground. And that was because both guys were basically small pretty boys who didn't want to get hit. Ground grappling is great for competition, but in a real situation, there's a good chance your opponent's friend(s) is going to kick you in the head or neck, or maybe stab you while you're down. Again, Aikido makes sense to me here - throw them to the ground or hold them there while you maintain your upright and alert position.

Really, though, fights are not that common, in my experience, and can be largely (and best) avoided if you are a strong enough person to stay out of situations where they occur. With the rest, Aikido is as good as anything (though, like all, not perfect), and IMO, more fun to practice. Again, to each his/her own. So, yeah, do what you enjoy doing! Anything is better than nothing, and none are fool-proof.

Michael Neal
08-28-2012, 12:17 PM
"Every martial art is good at what it was created for" Lloyd Irvin

Lloyd Irvin Interview-Sport BJJ vs. Brazilian Jiu Jitsu Self Defense vs Martial Arts, The Reality
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JxTdnUI9DxM

Listen to this story about how BJJ did nothing to help him against home invaders with guns.

I think this is brilliant actually, it is the key to the whole "my style is better than yours" argument. Aikido is great at what it was created for, modified from the battlefield art of jujutsu involving swords and weapons and open hand techniques versus swords and weapons. It can also be used again committed open hand attacks as well but Aikido excels at avoiding mutiple attackers and defending against weapons, if it is trained for this purpose, not simply spirituality and harmony.

That is where it developed and where it excels, it will never be BJJ, wrestling, muay thai or something else.

Is Aikido the best art for a one on one fight in a ring, probably not. Is BJJ the best art for street fights with mutiple participants who may or may not have weapons, probably not.

Lets just be real and stop bashing other arts, they are alll great at what they do and what they were developed to deal with if trained well and properly for real defense.

Andy Kazama
08-28-2012, 02:02 PM
I like Lloyd Irvin's supposition...Unfortunately, Mr. Irvin appears to be unaware of Ameridote (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3CGMWlXosp4). Best of all, worst of none...

Rob Watson
08-28-2012, 02:38 PM
I like Lloyd Irvin's supposition...Unfortunately, Mr. Irvin appears to be unaware of Ameridote (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3CGMWlXosp4). Best of all, worst of none...

You can tell he is no master ... no mullet.

Kevin Leavitt
08-28-2012, 03:50 PM
Ameri-Do-Te. the best of all martial arts. Tell Master Ken I said hi next time you see him.

Andy Kazama
08-28-2012, 06:37 PM
I'll be sure to do that...from across the street ;)

aiki-jujutsuka
08-30-2012, 08:41 AM
Just to add my two pennies worth, for my next grading I have to demonstrate knife defence techniques. For the last couple of weeks I've been working on them in preparation and as this is the first serious training I've done with knives (tantos naturally) it has given me a new found respect for just how dangerous knife attacks are. Now I know knife attacks are dangerous and would never like to find myself in that situation, but one of the reasons I love Aiki-Jujutsu so much is because it deals with self-defence situations and tries to find realistic solutions. My sensei expects me to be able to respond to any of the potential knife attacks I will get in the grading without thinking, just to respond naturally and instinctively. This will require much practice but it is good to train in this way, to be able to test yourself and see what you are capable of. My problem is that I am still thinking too much when the attack comes into me, I want to just adapt my kata to the situation but when you realize that you will only have one chance in a knife attack situation, realistically speaking, you realize just how narrow the margin for error is. This is incredibly valuable for self-defence and gives you wisdom to know the best self-defence is avoidance completely. It really does help you grow in character and wisdom as well as giving you techniques and training in how to respond in threatening and dangerous situations.

Bengal107
08-30-2012, 08:44 AM
from what i hear, the two most effective styles that most people know about are krav maga and aikido. that's what i heard and i believe it because of my gut and not through experience so that's just me. they're completely opposite styles but once learned they're tough to beat.

phitruong
08-30-2012, 09:18 AM
from what i hear, the two most effective styles that most people know about are krav maga and aikido. that's what i heard and i believe it because of my gut and not through experience so that's just me. they're completely opposite styles but once learned they're tough to beat.

i thought the two most effective styles were Smith and Wesson or was that Keckler and Koch? :)

Kevin Leavitt
08-30-2012, 09:54 AM
from what i hear, the two most effective styles that most people know about are krav maga and aikido. that's what i heard and i believe it because of my gut and not through experience so that's just me. they're completely opposite styles but once learned they're tough to beat.

Nah...i've pretty much crushed the dreams and illusions of both KM and Aikido folks that fight strictly from those paradigms, pretty much any paradigm I've been able to defeat most when I can control the conditions of the fight, which I have gotten pretty good at doing over the years. Hard to explain, but once you understand the secret of how to do it, then you can lay waste to most anyone of any style.

that does not mean these methodologies suck or anything, just that you understand the dynamics of fighitng better.

that and if you spend anytime with Master Ken in Amer-do-te...well then you realize that all other martial arts are Bullshit anyway.

Andy Kazama
08-30-2012, 11:25 PM
Kevin,
Is it safe to assume when you state, "control the conditions of the fight" you are referring to the Hurticane? I prefer the Kill Face myself, but it would be hard to know which method is superior since you'd never be able to test it in the dojo without a pile of dead/broken students...

Seriously though, I've been blown away at how effective the use of decent body structure while capturing the space can be for dominating the interaction (and we've played with this using empty hand, tanto, bokken, shinai, jo...and hopefully shock-knives sometime soon!)

Andrew Macdonald
09-06-2012, 11:39 PM
man i don't know why people get upset about these comments, any martial art can be accused of not being complete, equally there are many aikidoka maybe some on thisboard who call out TKD for using high kicks, in the end who cares

find a good teacher train hard and be ral about the short comings of what you do, if you feel too uncomfortable about it do something else or cross train.

Don;t get into wee arguements with people about in ins and outs of fighting or street fighting. if anyone calls me out about the fails of the arts that i study, i can easily agree with them and then we can actually have a conversation. anything that goes along the lines of "well lets see what you can do" is essentially useless and proves nothing. also dropping the names of certain sensei that do something (can't think of one right now) isn't so useful be open and honest with yourself, aikido isn;t the best art in the world, not the worst either, true love is when you see the flaws and love anway

John Thomas Read
09-11-2012, 04:14 PM
Hi every 1
Actually the title is an advice from some martial artists who I meet weekly in our dojo. We have many different martial arts sessions going every day in that dojo like karate, taekwando, judo, jeet kune do and kung fu (wing chun). we always talk about martial arts and their effectiveness in real situations like street fighting.

They almost made me desperate and disappointed of Aikido.
Here are some of their quotations:
"Aikido doesn't require fitness so most aikido players are old, fat and not strong enough"
" you can not attack in aikido you just receiving and waiting what the attackers will do"
" many aikido techniques depend on grabbing which is rarely happen in real fights"
" aikido focuses on hands to applying its techniques and ignores the rest of the body, no kicks no punches no jumping"
" aikido is only good for seminars and demonstrations"
" aikido is too traditional, no body use sword in our world today"
" aikido is a philosophy more than a combat way"
etc……

I didn't lose my faith in aikido, but between u and me aren't they have right in some thoughts???

Is aikido useful and effective in real situation and against other martial arts?

It might be helpful if you read Aikido Aikibojitsu and the Structure of Natural Law, in which I take pains to explain the principles that underlie Aikido. Although the book requires some study to fully understand, it has helped many truly appreciate this amazing art form.

It certainly is not the art that is at fault if practitioners do not understand or perform the art correctly. And there is little doubt that Aikido is in some ways a lot harder to understand and do properly than some other martial systems, because at its heart it is based in pure non-resistance. When a practitioner really understands Aikido, though, it is difficult to imagine a more powerful martial system.

TokyoZeplin
09-11-2012, 06:41 PM
And there is little doubt that Aikido is in some ways a lot harder to understand and do properly than some other martial systems, because at its heart it is based in pure non-resistance.

I'm a little curious about this, so I hope you'll indulge me a little :)

Gozo Shioda explains several times that Aikido used in actual combat requires punches and kicks (surely that's "resistance"?), and also has the famous "Aikido in a fight is 70% atemi". You also have offsprings such as Yoseikan and Tomiki Aikido.

Isn't it a bit much labelling ALL Aikido as "pure non-resistance"? Certainly I believe there are styles where that is the main goal, but surely that can't be said about all Aikido in general, can it?

Anthony Loeppert
09-11-2012, 06:48 PM
Gozo Shioda explains several times that Aikido used in actual combat requires punches and kicks (surely that's "resistance"?),

No, punching someone in the face is not the definition of resisting in this context.

Resistance in the context of aikido is meeting force with force, literally.

Always with the internet caveat of, this is my understanding today... I reserve the right to change my mind later.

Kevin Leavitt
09-12-2012, 11:09 AM
I work hard at trying to reduce proprioceptive responses or triggers out of uke or opponents. I personally think that when people speak of "non-resistance" this is what they mean. you can be resistive, combative, and move forward in a fight, taking up space, slack, and control, while not giving your opponent the ability to orient, fix, or anchor on anything in particular.

For me, the phrase "non-resistance" goes in that bucket of useless, meaningless words that people use that offer little or no help to actually understanding what they are doing or trying to do. I throw "just move your hips", and "move from your hara", and such phrases in that same category. They sound good, everyone goes..yeah...I understand, but few can actually provide you the means to actually understand what is going on or what the phrase means or translate that into a physical practice.

MM
09-12-2012, 12:18 PM
I'm a little curious about this, so I hope you'll indulge me a little :)

Gozo Shioda explains several times that Aikido used in actual combat requires punches and kicks (surely that's "resistance"?), and also has the famous "Aikido in a fight is 70% atemi". You also have offsprings such as Yoseikan and Tomiki Aikido.

Isn't it a bit much labelling ALL Aikido as "pure non-resistance"? Certainly I believe there are styles where that is the main goal, but surely that can't be said about all Aikido in general, can it?

I think there should be some clarification here.

1. Gozo Shioda studied Daito ryu under Morihei Ueshiba. Later, when there was a possibility (along with other Daito ryu students) of coming back "to the fold", so to speak, he chose other options. Morihei was retired, Kisshomaru ran Tokyo. These things must be taken into account.

2. That quote, "Aikido in a fight is 70% atemi", was what Shioda said Morihei Ueshiba told him *about fighting*. Remember that Ueshiba flew into a rage when Ohba actually attacked him for real in a demonstration. Of course, Ueshiba handled Ohba easily, but it was not what Ueshiba wanted to present. There is a difference between the vision of aikido and the realistic application of aikido.

3. Aiki is non-resistance, just not in the manner that Modern Aikido teaches it. NOT saying right, wrong, good, bad. The two versions (Ueshiba's aiki and Modern Aikido) of "non-resistance" are not the same. Ueshiba's aikido can have punches that are non-resistance. In fact, if you watch Ueshiba in his later years, you can still see him deliver atemi to an uke. The founder himself is showing that punches can be non-resistance.

4. Both Modern Aikido and Ueshiba's aikido can be worthy goals in training. At times, those goals are similar while at other times, diametrically opposed. Depends on what you're looking for.

Lorien Lowe
09-14-2012, 12:13 AM
I'm a little curious about this, so I hope you'll indulge me a little :)

Gozo Shioda explains several times that Aikido used in actual combat requires punches and kicks (surely that's "resistance"?), and also has the famous "Aikido in a fight is 70% atemi". You also have offsprings such as Yoseikan and Tomiki Aikido.

Isn't it a bit much labelling ALL Aikido as "pure non-resistance"? Certainly I believe there are styles where that is the main goal, but surely that can't be said about all Aikido in general, can it?

Read Sensei hasn't answered, so I'll fill in a little bit of info: he's the dojo-cho where I train, and we do indeed use a LOT of atemi (we are actually somewhat infamous for accidentally bopping people when we train at other dojos, because we expect uke to move). Sensei will correct me if I'm wrong, but I think a lot of it has to do with intent.

heathererandolph
09-16-2012, 10:49 PM
We have kicks & punches so that's not correct. Anyhow, they don't know much about it it seems. Doesn't work against other martial arts? I'm not sure we'd compete against them, what would the rules be? Oh, there's the neigh Sayers always, but a good nikkyo or Sanyo should prove to them that Aikido means business!

Chris Evans
09-17-2012, 10:54 AM
a good reminder that on aikido is excellently useful...

in Articles...
Home > General > "Real" Aikido
by Carol M. Shifflet

http://www.aikiweb.com/general/shifflett1.html

and

http://www.aikidosangenkai.org/blog/archive/2012-08-12/aikido-shihan-hiroshi-tada-the-budo-body-part-1

hese three Budo "tips" came from Hiroshi Tada in a lecture that he gave in Italy in 2002:

1) An Aikidoka should be able to consistently cut down an opponent with the first blow. This it the true Budo aspect of Aikido. It is precisely because we are confident that we will always able to do this. This confidence gives us two things, our strength and the ability to choose a less deadly outcome, both of which we should have as a prerequisite to our training.


...this explains why I still continue to train in MMA-karate, my "old friend," but now I am concentrating on aikido, my "new friend."

Nafis Zahir
09-17-2012, 05:49 PM
“ many aikido techniques depend on grabbing which is rarely happen in real fights”


Whoever said this knows nothing about real fights! All fights end up with someone grabbing someone! Even in boxing matches, when one fighter is tired or gets tired of being hit, he grabs the other guy in order to stop him for a minute or to catch his breath.

I studied Kung Fu for 7 years and know people who studied longer. By them knowing about real attacks, even they wondered how they would fare in a street situation. All arts have there pros and cons. As for attacking, why would a martial artist want to attack someone? That is another stupid comment!

Always remember that many of O'Sensei's students were already very skilled in other arts when they went to become his student! You think about that now.....

Chris Evans
09-17-2012, 06:42 PM
Whoever said this knows nothing about real fights! All fights end up with someone grabbing someone! ..

Not "all" real fights, but many: About 60% or so goes to the ground is my guess, not counting sporting fights, and a higher % involves grabbing.

MM
09-18-2012, 07:42 AM
Whoever said this knows nothing about real fights! All fights end up with someone grabbing someone! Even in boxing matches, when one fighter is tired or gets tired of being hit, he grabs the other guy in order to stop him for a minute or to catch his breath.


I would imagine that there is a lot of grabbing in fights, from temporary to longer holds. But, then again, that's just an uneducated guess.


Always remember that many of O'Sensei's students were already very skilled in other arts when they went to become his student! You think about that now.....

And no amount of that skilled martial experiences from those same students helped them, at all. Which is why they became students. Yet, rarely is that given any thought or weight. The thread subject, if we were really talking about Ueshiba's aikido, should really be "Don't waste your time practicing any martial art other than AIKIDO". People who could fight, had backgrounds in judo, jujutsu, kendo, kenjutsu, boxing, karate, etc all seemed to think Takeda, Ueshiba, Sagawa, etc were doing something completely different than what they experienced. Why is it that no one thinks about that?

Instead, people take their Modern Aikido experience, equate it to what Ueshiba was doing, and everyone just thinks that Modern Aikido is another form of same old, same old martial arts. Yet, historically, those same students of Ueshiba who are upheld as a gold standard had all kinds of other martial art backgrounds/experiences and they stated Ueshiba was doing something different. Yet, no one thinks about that?

Not "all" real fights, but many: About 60% or so goes to the ground is my guess, not counting sporting fights, and a higher % involves grabbing.

I doubt that's accurate. I don't think there have been any studies on it, either. The only study done that I know of was in Law Enforcement and of course, a high percentage go to the ground. UFC/MMA can't be used as an example, because part of their rules allow for ground submissions. By the very nature of the sport, it's going to have ground work in it. The opposite would be boxing, which has no rules allowing ground work, so there is little percentage of boxing going to the ground. Sport is sport. Law enforcement is law enforcement. None of those are going to replicate "real life".

Besides, grabbing someone is not equivalent to going to the ground. Two different subjects.

Nafis Zahir
09-18-2012, 09:26 PM
Instead, people take their Modern Aikido experience, equate it to what Ueshiba was doing, and everyone just thinks that Modern Aikido is another form of same old, same old martial arts. Yet, historically, those same students of Ueshiba who are upheld as a gold standard had all kinds of other martial art backgrounds/experiences and they stated Ueshiba was doing something different. Yet, no one thinks about that?


Exactly! But nowadays. most people are not willing to practice the way they did back then. I've seen these kinds of practices before and they appear to be brutal, but they are the real deal! Aikido can be very devastating. I've even seen dojos who don't use atemi. That's not even Aikido.

TokyoZeplin
09-20-2012, 11:12 AM
Not "all" real fights, but many: About 60% or so goes to the ground is my guess, not counting sporting fights, and a higher % involves grabbing.

Of all fights I've seen in my life, from highschool to my now 28 years of age, I have never seen a fight go to the ground. Sure, I've seen one of the people fall to the ground, and then perhaps followed by kicking or some such, but I have never seen the situations described here, where the fight turns into a ground/grappling game. Sure, it's not like I've seen hundreds of fights in my life, relatively few really, but still, never seen it go to the ground.

I remember reading a thread here somewhere, fairly ancient if I remember correctly, that took statistics from police reports done on it. From what I remember, the number was something like 10% of violent incidents went to the ground. Since I can't seem to find the thread again, though, take that number with a grain of salt.

thisisnotreal
09-20-2012, 11:19 AM
Why is it that no one thinks about that?

It is very unhappy business (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lytxafTXg6c&noredirect=1)

jonreading
09-20-2012, 11:52 AM
For me, the phrase "non-resistance" goes in that bucket of useless, meaningless words that people use that offer little or no help to actually understanding what they are doing or trying to do. I throw "just move your hips", and "move from your hara", and such phrases in that same category. They sound good, everyone goes..yeah...I understand, but few can actually provide you the means to actually understand what is going on or what the phrase means or translate that into a physical practice.

I tend to agree here. Some of the new stuff we are experiencing in aikido requires some lexicon changes. "non-resistence" and "relaxation" are hitting the trash for me.

I think it is reasonable to conclude that many fights are intended to end up on the ground. Sometimes the ground work does not manifest itself before the fight ends, sometimes it does. Sometimes only one person ends up on the ground (this is actually advantageous to the fighter left standing). The simple fact is that it is easier to subdue and control someone on the ground. It is not coincidence that law enforcement control positions involve placing individuals on the ground (yes, they may also use vehicles as a substitute for the ground).

Grappling is both defense against someone skilled in grappling and offense. I think any art which teaches both defense and offense gives its practitioners an advantage in a fight (over being non-skilled). I think you can argue whether one art is better at teaching both offense and defense for given scenarios. I think it is fair to argue that modern aikido is light on our ukewaza; this seems to be a running comment from our sister arts that cross-train with us. I think projecting flaws in its practitioners onto the art as a whole is a poor argument.

Chris Evans
09-20-2012, 11:59 AM
Of all fights I've seen in my life, from highschool to my now 28 years of age, I have never seen a fight go to the ground. Sure, I've seen one of the people fall to the ground, and then perhaps followed by kicking or some such, but I have never seen the situations described here, where the fight turns into a ground/grappling game. Sure, it's not like I've seen hundreds of fights in my life, relatively few really, but still, never seen it go to the ground.

I remember reading a thread here somewhere, fairly ancient if I remember correctly, that took statistics from police reports done on it. From what I remember, the number was something like 10% of violent incidents went to the ground. Since I can't seem to find the thread again, though, take that number with a grain of salt.

About half of my real fights went to clinch, a form of grappling. The other half were knocked to the ground.

The statistics I offered came from various sources, but ALL stat's are irrevelant to an individual.

What I do know is that kicking, punching and striking -- atemi -- can be effective until you meet a strong foe...then grappling/seizing will happen: clinches, grabs, take downs, throws, and ground wrestling.

Hone your base, but be exposed to all other aspects of protection because that's FUN and may actually save life.

O-Sensei said atemi is 70% of aikido so I will maintain my karate base, flavored with occasional exposures to boxing, muay Thai kickboxing, & MMA.

MMA adds insights to all traditional arts. For the next few years I intend to concentrate on aikido to sincerely investigate.

OSU

MM
09-20-2012, 04:11 PM
O-Sensei said atemi is 70% of aikido

OSU

No. Please post where he said that. Otherwise, the only place found so far has been from Shioda writing what Ueshiba told him. Even then, you have it wrong.

Chris Li
09-20-2012, 04:14 PM
No. Please post where he said that. Otherwise, the only place found so far has been from Shioda writing what Ueshiba told him. Even then, you have it wrong.

I believe that Saito made a similar citation (with a different percentage), but I don't have it in front of me...

In either case, I don't recall any direct quotations off-hand.

Best,

Chris

TokyoZeplin
09-20-2012, 04:24 PM
Indeed, I believe the quote is closer to something like this (please don't make me dig it up in Aikido Shugyo, I made zero notes in that book ._.'): In a real fight, 70% is atemi / in a real fight, 70% of Aikido is atemi. Or something like that. O Sensei certainly didn't state that 70% of Aikido is Atemi.

Chris Evans
09-20-2012, 06:06 PM
No. Please post where he said that. Otherwise, the only place found so far has been from Shioda writing what Ueshiba told him. Even then, you have it wrong.

Sure, will be fun finding sources and citing for us, but this will take time. The distinction I have read & heard was in aikido application for protection, not in the dojo.

Your declaration, "...Even then, you have it wrong..." reads intrinsically wrong in it self. If you got it right then be positive about it and tell us.

Chris Evans
09-20-2012, 06:11 PM
Indeed, I believe the quote is closer to something like this (please don't make me dig it up in Aikido Shugyo, I made zero notes in that book ._.'): In a real fight, 70% is atemi / in a real fight, 70% of Aikido is atemi. Or something like that. O Sensei certainly didn't state that 70% of Aikido is Atemi.

Semantics. "...in a real fight, 70% of Aikido is atemi..." was what I was referring to

And that's good enough for me. don't want to over think this.

LuvAikido
12-01-2013, 11:22 PM
All those guys at your dojo view akido from fight perspective, however a very important part that many miss is with akido the fight is over before it starts, in favour of akidoka.... Now how the fight is ended is completely ur choice. As my sensei said "I give u tools, u choose how, where and when u want to use them".

Also, I doubt those guys will want to fight once their arm is dislocated in 3 places within a matter of seconds

lbb
12-02-2013, 07:16 AM
This thread is worse than a recycled Christmas letter.

BJohnston
12-04-2013, 12:23 PM
It's all relative. The art is as good as the person performing the techniques.

Rupert Atkinson
12-08-2013, 01:47 PM
Hi every 1
They almost made me desperate and disappointed of Aikido.
Here are some of their quotations:
“Aikido doesn’t require fitness so most aikido players are old, fat and not strong enough”
“ you can not attack in aikido you just receiving and waiting what the attackers will do”
“ many aikido techniques depend on grabbing which is rarely happen in real fights”
“ aikido focuses on hands to applying its techniques and ignores the rest of the body, no kicks no punches no jumping”
“ aikido is only good for seminars and demonstrations”
“ aikido is too traditional, no body use sword in our world today”
“ aikido is a philosophy more than a combat way”


Aikido is not really useful for self-defence at first. Aikido is: The Way of Aiki. You are supposed to be discovering and developing your aiki. The 'techniques' allow you to do that (if done with that in mind). Then, you will be able to control your opponent, especially if you put your aiki into your Judo or Jujutsu waza. Trouble is - few realize this.

observer
12-13-2013, 06:01 PM
Aikido is not really useful for self-defence at first.
You're wrong. Execution of aikido techniques is not a problem. The problem is to become untouchable. Ueshiba through training became untouchable (duel in the day of enlightenment). Does anybody else tried to do it?

observer
12-13-2013, 10:35 PM
Does anybody else tried to do it?
Sorry, the question is: "Does anybody try to do it?"

SteveTrinkle
12-16-2013, 09:22 AM
oh for crying out loud don't wa
'ste your time with anything whatever you do, "DoIt!don't waste your time!Baka!

SteveTrinkle
12-16-2013, 09:24 AM
Aikido is not really useful for self-defence at first. Aikido is: The Way of Aiki. You are supposed to be discovering and developing your aiki. The 'techniques' allow you to do that (if done with that in mind). Then, you will be able to control your opponent, especially if you put your aiki into your Judo or Jujutsu waza. Trouble is - few realize this.

Awwww,you in the wrong dojo