Knife Work

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[fatebass21]

I have been studying Aikido for one year now, and I am really starting to get interested in knife work. This is mainly because I work for a security company, and I thought it would be best to at least know the basics of how I would be able to best defend myself about a knife attack. Now that I have looked into it, began studying, and recieved very valuable and interesting information from Sempai at my dojo, I know that I am interested in studying knife work in general and also learning how to use a knife.

I have noticed that Aikido and knife work compliment eachother with different techniques.

Any advise for a dedicated beginner?

[Don_Modesto]

I have noticed that Aikido and knife work compliment eachother with different techniques.

Any advise for a dedicated beginner?

Risking the howls, I'll venture that aikido technique and training methods are less optimized for knife work than other arts. I think the Phillipinos have a leg up on the blade stuff and if I were serious about knife fighting, that's where I'd go.

...ducking and running...

[mj]

Risking the howls, I'll venture that aikido technique and training methods are less optimized for knife work than other arts. I think the Phillipinos have a leg up on the blade stuff and if I were serious about knife fighting, that's where I'd go.

...ducking and running...
I totally agree. Thus rendering my post pointless.

[senshincenter]

Well, I disagree. Thus probably also rendering my point pointless.

[thomas_dixon]

I have been studying Aikido for one year now, and I am really starting to get interested in knife work. This is mainly because I work for a security company, and I thought it would be best to at least know the basics of how I would be able to best defend myself about a knife attack. Now that I have looked into it, began studying, and recieved very valuable and interesting information from Sempai at my dojo, I know that I am interested in studying knife work in general and also learning how to use a knife.

I have noticed that Aikido and knife work compliment eachother with different techniques.

Any advise for a dedicated beginner?

Definately check out the FMA's (Filipino Martial Arts). I'd suggest Sayoc Kali, since it's mostly Small knife based. You can find certified instructors at http://sayoc.com or if there are none near you, buy one of their training vids. Otherwise, almost any other filipino martial art includes knife, except Modern Arnis, which is mostly stick. The movements for stick and knife are mostly the same, however you'll actually work with knives (aluminum trainers) in other systems.

[justinc]

I'll add a voice for Kali. Additionally, Krav Maga has a lot of improvised waepons work that could be useful. Aikido works very well on the defensive side, these other arts would give you a perspective on the offensive.

[thomas_dixon]

I'll add a voice for Kali. Additionally, Krav Maga has a lot of improvised waepons work that could be useful. Aikido works very well on the defensive side, these other arts would give you a perspective on the offensive.

Yeah, but it's really hard to find an authentic Krav Maga school. Kali is the biz :cool: It's defensive, however and not offensive :)

[Keith_k]

*gag*

This post needs a parental advisory.

Yuck.
Sorry. Maybe a parental advisory would be a good idea, but I stand by the contents of my post. Someone asked about how to use a knife, and I answered honestly. Using a knife, be it offensively or defensively, is inherently bloody and lethal. Blades were intended to kill, and kill quickly.

I do honestly apologize if the graphic nature of my post offends anyone, but it is the truth in all its brutality. I leave it up to the judgment of the moderators if I have crossed the line of good taste.

[thomas_dixon]

[quote removed by moderator]



The real problem is if the person who stands before you has the same idea. You'd end up killing each other.

Descalation, running. No sense getting into a life or death struggle for no reason.

The first target you should always go for is the one closest to you: their hand. If they are unable to wield a weapon effectively, the fight is over, obtain their weapon and detain them. A non-lethal approach is always a first measure, and lethal entry should be viable from your non-lethal stand point.

Only reason I think your post should be edited, would be because you never know who's looking at these forums. It could be a convicted felon wanting to improve his "criminal I.Q"...But you could just send the guy a PM.

[SeiserL]

IMHO, find a Sempai who has also trained in FMA. Attend some seminars, read books, watch videos about different styles of knife work. Get over your own fear about the blade. It takes time. Be patient. Expect to get cut.

[Solarius]

The first target you should always go for is the one closest to you: their hand. If they are unable to wield a weapon effectively, the fight is over, obtain their weapon and detain them. A non-lethal approach is always a first measure, and lethal entry should be viable from your non-lethal stand point.

Only reason I think your post should be edited, would be because you never know who's looking at these forums. It could be a convicted felon wanting to improve his "criminal I.Q"...But you could just send the guy a PM.


The post shouldn't be edited, because the guy's sharing information. Editing posts can easily end up as a forum-wide censoring campaign, which is really harmful to the community. Also, the info is quite valuable even if you don't intend to kill someone in the near future ;)

I agree with the thought that the first approach should be non-lethal. Especially when you're an aikidoka and know how to... convince a man to relinquish his knife.

[Keith_k]

The real problem is if the person who stands before you has the same idea. You'd end up killing each other.

The ONLY reason I would use a knife in this way is if the person in front of me had the same idea. This is why I emphasized speed. Kill him before he kills you. If this idea makes you uneasy, I would recommend perfecting your unarmed knife defense techniques and forget about how to use a knife offensively: knife fighting isn't for you.

Descalation, running. No sense getting into a life or death struggle for no reason.

I assumed that as an aikidoka, deescalation would always be the first option. But if deescalation always worked, there would be no need for us to study technique. It is possible that you may be in a situation where armed physical conflict is unavoidable.

The first target you should always go for is the one closest to you: their hand. If they are unable to wield a weapon effectively, the fight is over, obtain their weapon and detain them. A non-lethal approach is always a first measure, and lethal entry should be viable from your non-lethal stand point.

Slashing at the knife hand is a wonderful technique, as is slashing at the non-knife hand, or any other body part that your enemy is foolish enough to dangle in front of you. As I said, entire books could (and have) been written on the subject. I can't go over everything in a single post, so I chose the techniques that I thought most definitively end the conflict.
To me, using a knife in a non-lethal manner is a contradiction. Slashing at the hand is a deterrent, but doesn't do much more than superficial damage. The tendons are hard to get to, and even if cut the tendons on the back of the hand attach to muscles that OPEN the hand, so your enemy will still be able to grip his knife even if you cut him deep. Adrenaline or drugs may make the pain from this slash inconsequential. There's a good chance that you'll have to kill the bastard if you can't run and want to survive.
If you want to use non-lethal technique, throw the damn knife away. But if you insist, I think that knowing where the lethal strikes go will only help with your goal of using a knife non-lethally. If you don't want to kill the poor sod, don't cut him here, here, or here, etc. I still think that (not necessarily limited to) the strikes I listed are the best way to end an unavoidable conflict quickly, definitively, and with your safety in mind.

Only reason I think your post should be edited, would be because you never know who's looking at these forums. It could be a convicted felon wanting to improve his "criminal I.Q"...But you could just send the guy a PM.

I don't think many criminals increase their criminal IQ from information gathered from a martial art dedicated to peace and harmony. Nor would simply viewing the information that I have posted do them much good without much, much practice. Anyone dedicated enough to spend the time and effort needed to become a proficient knife fighter probably would do so without my help.

[thomas_dixon]

IMHO, find a Sempai who has also trained in FMA. Attend some seminars, read books, watch videos about different styles of knife work. Get over your own fear about the blade. It takes time. Be patient. Expect to get cut.

The whole point of knife fighting is ot not get cut. Period. Nicknack cuts mean nothing, but I wouldn't set out with an "expect to get cut" mindframe.

The post shouldn't be edited, because the guy's sharing information. Editing posts can easily end up as a forum-wide censoring campaign, which is really harmful to the community. Also, the info is quite valuable even if you don't intend to kill someone in the near future ;)

I agree with the thought that the first approach should be non-lethal. Especially when you're an aikidoka and know how to... convince a man to relinquish his knife.

If you wanted the info that bad, you could pick up a copy of Gray's Anatomy. ;)

The ONLY reason I would use a knife in this way is if the person in front of me had the same idea. This is why I emphasized speed. Kill him before he kills you. If this idea makes you uneasy, I would recommend perfecting your unarmed knife defense techniques and forget about how to use a knife offensively: knife fighting isn't for you.

I take Panburen and Sayoc Kali, knife fighting is for me. I just suggest an initial non-lethal approach to save the person from setting in prison for 3 years awaiting a trial. You don't just rush in to someone with a knife. It'll get you killed, and quckly.



I assumed that as an aikidoka, deescalation would always be the first option. But if deescalation always worked, there would be no need for us to study technique. It is possible that you may be in a situation where armed physical conflict is unavoidable.

I'm not an Aikidoka, however I do respect life. I'm not saying sometimes violence can be unavoidable, I'm simply saying it's better to try everything, rather than just assuming the resolute is to kill the person.


Slashing at the knife hand is a wonderful technique, as is slashing at the non-knife hand, or any other body part that your enemy is foolish enough to dangle in front of you. As I said, entire books could (and have) been written on the subject. I can't go over everything in a single post, so I chose the techniques that I thought most definitively end the conflict.
To me, using a knife in a non-lethal manner is a contradiction. Slashing at the hand is a deterrent, but doesn't do much more than superficial damage. The tendons are hard to get to, and even if cut the tendons on the back of the hand attach to muscles that OPEN the hand, so your enemy will still be able to grip his knife even if you cut him deep. Adrenaline or drugs may make the pain from this slash inconsequential. There's a good chance that you'll have to kill the bastard if you can't run and want to survive.
If you want to use non-lethal technique, throw the damn knife away. But if you insist, I think that knowing where the lethal strikes go will only help with your goal of using a knife non-lethally. If you don't want to kill the poor sod, don't cut him here, here, or here, etc. I still think that (not necessarily limited to) the strikes I listed are the best way to end an unavoidable conflict quickly, definitively, and with your safety in mind.

I know that slashing the fingers, back of the hand, forearm, etc. are nicknack's...however when that person sees their hand cut wide open, they might think twice about what they're doing. I just suggested non-lethal knife use because he's a security gaurd. His job is to secure the area and detain criminal presence. And while lethal force could be condoned, it would be best if he would try to keep people breathing.

I don't think many criminals increase their criminal IQ from information gathered from a martial art dedicated to peace and harmony. Nor would simply viewing the information that I have posted do them much good without much, much practice. Anyone dedicated enough to spend the time and effort needed to become a proficient knife fighter probably would do so without my help.

Cutting someone's Common Carotid is hardly peaceful or harmonious.

[akiy]

Hi Keith,
I do honestly apologize if the graphic nature of my post offends anyone, but it is the truth in all its brutality. I leave it up to the judgment of the moderators if I have crossed the line of good taste.
I've deleted your post as well as quotes from your post as I think it crossed the line of having dangerous information on my site. I'd rather keep such information off my site, if only for legal ramifications with my being the owner of the site. Thanks.

-- Jun

[Keith_k]

Jun,

I understand your position and accept your judgement of what should be posted on your site with no hard feelings.

Keith

[akiy]

Hi Keith,

I appreciate your understanding. Thank you.

-- Jun

[Lan Powers]

Quote <The whole point of knife fighting is ot not get cut. Period. Nicknack cuts mean nothing, but I wouldn't set out with an "expect to get cut" mindframe. >

Gotta disagree....you both have a blade, you are *probably* both gonna bleed.
Unless one is totally physically inept. Just the reality.
Lan

[thomas_dixon]

Quote <The whole point of knife fighting is ot not get cut. Period. Nicknack cuts mean nothing, but I wouldn't set out with an "expect to get cut" mindframe. >

Gotta disagree....you both have a blade, you are *probably* both gonna bleed.
Unless one is totally physically inept. Just the reality.
Lan


Even if you probably will get cut, having the negative mindset, could be the difference between victory and defeat. As for it being a reality...I'd rather call it a probability. However, it's common sense that the whole point of training to fight with knives is to not get cut/stabbed, whether it happens or not :)

[SeiserL]

Have to agree with Jun, that perhaps we need not turn this into a how-to clinic. Save that for the knife forums and the seminars.

As I have offered in the other knife thread, please remember that training is not sparring, sparring is not fighting, and fighting is not combat. Each has its own rules of engagement based on its level of intent and intensity.

I was taught that the two outcomes of a knife fight (best thought of as ambush and assassinations) is that one goes to the hospital and one goes to the morgue. Therefore the goal is not to go to the morgue. If you train knowing statistically you will probably be cut, and you are, you are somewhat prepared. If you expect to get cut and you don't, better. But if you train thinking you won't get cur and you do, the intrusive shock is tremendous. Its like a boxer not expecting to get hit. Not very reality based.

But lets also learn to avoid those situations in the first place, and escape and evasion in the second.

[thomas_dixon]

Have to agree with Jun, that perhaps we need not turn this into a how-to clinic. Save that for the knife forums and the seminars.

As I have offered in the other knife thread, please remember that training is not sparring, sparring is not fighting, and fighting is not combat. Each has its own rules of engagement based on its level of intent and intensity.

I was taught that the two outcomes of a knife fight (best thought of as ambush and assassinations) is that one goes to the hospital and one goes to the morgue. Therefore the goal is not to go to the morgue. If you train knowing statistically you will probably be cut, and you are, you are somewhat prepared. If you expect to get cut and you don't, better. But if you train thinking you won't get cur and you do, the intrusive shock is tremendous. Its like a boxer not expecting to get hit. Not very reality based.

But lets also learn to avoid those situations in the first place, and escape and evasion in the second.

I never said don't be prepared to get cut, I simply said don't go into a fight, sparring match, etc. with the negative mindset, that "I'm going to get cut." I suggest, just remaining neutral. (mainly from the old "As soon as you doubt whether you shall win, you've already lost." philosophy.)

[Mat Hill]

Some very good posts on this thread, and I can't add much to what's already been said.

I will say that I disagree with the definition 'knife-fighters' in general... this suggests someone who has experience in fighting with knives, meaning both people had knives and are trying to use them to inflict damage on each other... this in itself is a romantic mindset: the number of people with this kind of experience is by definition very very low, and the chances of you meeting one even lower.

If you are talking about people who use knives with the idea of harming other people you are talking about FMA teachers and students, criminals and the armed services. They are not knife-fighters, they have specific goals in mind, and neither 'killing' nor 'injuring' is not the same as 'fighting'.

As a specific answer to the original question: I think using aiki knife techs against a real opponent will likely exacerbate the situation and get you stuck. I've met very few people who use knives in the dojo anywhere near the way I've seen them used for real. The aiki knife techs are based on obsolete stylized attacks belonging to a certain place in history and geography IMHO.

[Don_Modesto]

Well, I disagree.

...waiting for the other shoe to drop...

[senshincenter]

Well, let’s see if I can do this on the shorter side…

Aikido is not the techniques of Kihon Waza. Aikido is the reconciliation of all dualities and of all paradoxes. As such, Aikido includes all strategies and all tactics. As it seeks to reconcile the totality of all tactics and all strategies, it tends to favor spiraling movements, paths of least resistance, concentric timings, zones of sanctuary, fluidity, dynamism, synergy, etc. – these things are knife fighting at its best.

If today knife fighting is finding more fertile training ground in other arts, it is not because Aikido cannot support it, but rather because institutionally Aikido has come to support other things over other things (unfortunately).

[Don_Modesto]

Aikido is not the techniques of Kihon Waza. Aikido is the reconciliation of all dualities and of all paradoxes. As such, Aikido includes all strategies and all tactics. As it seeks to reconcile the totality of all tactics and all strategies, it tends to favor spiraling movements, paths of least resistance, concentric timings, zones of sanctuary, fluidity, dynamism, synergy, etc. -- these things are knife fighting at its best.

If today knife fighting is finding more fertile training ground in other arts, it is not because Aikido cannot support it, but rather because institutionally Aikido has come to support other things over other things (unfortunately).

Theory vs. practice?

You covered this point nicely in one of the essays on your site. It seemed to me as I read it an aikido version of Emerson's American Scholar (the points about revering the act of creativity, but confusing it with the creator and enshrining gestures now dead.)

Thanks for the response.

[senshincenter]

Hi Don,

Thanks for taking the time to check out the site.

david

[George S. Ledyard]

.

If today knife fighting is finding more fertile training ground in other arts, it is not because Aikido cannot support it, but rather because institutionally Aikido has come to support other things over other things (unfortunately).


Richard Heckler and I were talking about how we were doing some paired knife work and our students (not all of them) had some resistance to it. To us it seemed fairly ridiculous to decide that paired sword was Aikido but paired knife wasn't.

[willy_lee]

To us it seemed fairly ridiculous to decide that paired sword was Aikido but paired knife wasn't.
I quite agree.

I've often had a feeling that as nage, techniques esp. use of atemi seem to be designed to be used with a knife in the hand; the atemi that people question, saying, "why would I react so strongly to avoid that?", raises no eyebrows if you imagine the atemi with a small knife in hand, or even just the possibility in uke's mind of a knife.

=wl

[senshincenter]

George,

You might find this interesting... Somewhere in my earlier education I came across a study of how racism, stereotypes, and profiles were all built into laws and/or worked to support laws. One example, I remember seeing a study that dealt with the felony/misdemeanor inconsistency between carrying a concealed firearm and carrying a concealed knife. The logic, when it was first posited, had to do with the fact that edged weapons were thought to be the weapon of choice of the poor (knives, razor blades, switchblades, etc.) and more specifically of the minority poor (black/latin/asian, etc.). It seemed after urbanization really took off there was always a deep cultural distaste for the knife in "American" culture. Which is one reason, for example, that "good guys" in pop culture always use their fists, their sword, or their firearm. Knives are for "bad guys." So I think folks who investigate knife work and its relation to Aiki (and vice versa) might have to sometimes come up against the echoes of this earlier cultural trend. It's crazy, but deep cultural impulses are always crazy - if you ask me.

My knife instructor used to point out that dead is dead - can't be deader - and to the dead man, well, he'll never say, "Hey, thanks for using a sword and not a knife." It's only an attempt at humor, but I always thought it was quite pointed as well. For me, its very much akin to the idea that its better or more moral to kill or hurt a man with a throw than it is with a blow. Somehow, it just doesn't seem all that right.

thanks,
david

[Keith_k]

I think that knife techniques, both offensive and defensive, are useful and relevant to modern life and should be taught. Knives are still used by the criminal element today. Even if you cannot conceive of a situation where you would use a knife offensively, the knowledge of how to use one would certainly aid in your defense against a knife attack.

As far as resistance to learning knife, I agree with David. It's not just a modern cultural phenomena. In the "good old days," swords were much more expensive than knives (and still are today). Any village blacksmith can make knives, and they did, but sword making is a highly specialized skill. I know from my own experiments in forging, even I can make knives but a sword is far beyond my ability. Only nobility could afford swords, so swords became the weapon of nobility, or a noble weapon. The poor could only afford knives, clubs, and such, so these became low weapons; the weapons of thieves and thugs.