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John Boswell
01-14-2005, 11:13 AM
Over on another thread, we've established that the Klingon race of Star Trek fame have their own martial arts weapons, style and even got a book on the subject!

So I, in my infinite wisdom, have created a thread over here for the Star Wars fanatics out there with regard to THOSE martial arts and weapons! :rolleyes:

The Klingon "Mok'bara" has been compared to Tai Chi as well as Koren ma's. Anyone have input on the origination of the Jedi arts? :confused:

Domo arigato... and may the force be with you! :p

Niamh Marie O'Leary-Liu
01-14-2005, 11:52 AM
Clearly, the Jedi Order was heavily influenced by, if not based upon, the teachings of O-Sensei, both his techniques and philosophy.

I mean, just look at the uniforms, they are obviously modified aikido gi, humble garb made suitable for an intergalactic range of body types and in a practical dingy color, for those times when the nearest laundromat is light years away.

Jedi Masters spend considerable time in mokuso (meditation), contemplating the nature of the Force. A true shihan (Jedi Master) will be able to use the Force in a telekinetic way, from performing simple household tasks to levitating a ship, clearly derived from Ki energy and kokyu ryoku.

And there is the lightsaber kumitachi, as John pointed out. The only difference between Jedi weapons techniques and Aikido techniques is there can be no tachitori (sword taking) with the lightsaber, unless one either has substantial mastery of the Force or else does not mind losing a hand.

Niamh Marie O'Leary-Liu
01-14-2005, 12:00 PM
PS- almost forgot. Throughout the eons, the real name of Obi-Wan Kenobi has been adulterated by time, foreign language, and misunderstanding. His real name was Obi-san Kendo Gi, as he was known by acquaintances in distant galaxies who had not yet heard about aikido.

John Boswell
01-14-2005, 12:28 PM
Ah, but there IS tachitori! Through good extension of ki, the weapon can be stripped from the opponents hands or knocked away. These are truly higher level techniques, but were made obvious from Darth Tyrannus and Darth Vader's techniques.

Actually reaching in to make a grab for the weapon, that that would be foolhearty! Not saying it can't be done, but practice would be a b*tch! :D

MaryKaye
01-14-2005, 12:38 PM
I've done the blindfold "trust your feelings, use the Force" exercise in Aikido, admittedly not with a weapon; it's darned cool.

Tried all the ushiro throws in my repetoire on someone who had both of my wrists from behind; none of them worked at all. Finally I leaned forward and ran my head into him; of course he had both of my wrists from in front....

Mary Kaye

Paul Melsness
01-14-2005, 12:40 PM
Let's not forget the term Aikido itself:

Ai: Harmoney, or to become one with ...
Ki: Energy; Spirit; Force
Do: Way

Thus: Aikido is the "Way of becoming one with the force" ;)

John Boswell
01-14-2005, 12:46 PM
AH HA! Well done, Paul! Two jedi cookie treats for you! ;)

ryujin
01-14-2005, 12:49 PM
Clearly, the Jedi Order was heavily influenced by, if not based upon, the teachings of O-Sensei, both his techniques and philosophy.

I don't know about this. After seeing Yoda bounce around in "Send in the Clones", I'd have to say the Jedi style is a MMA that includes but not limited to, some of O'Sensei's teachings, Wu Shu, Tai Chi, Shaolin and some buddhism thrown in for good measure. That or "Medaclorians" are really just a space age blend of meth and angle-dust.
:hypno:

Kevin Masters
01-14-2005, 01:30 PM
heh, funny. I didn't think you guys would actually start up this thread.

Ok, where does the "send Kevin some money so he can train for free" thread start?
:D

Hello?
*listening to sounds of crickets...*

John Boswell
01-14-2005, 01:42 PM
*cricket cricket*

John Boswell
01-14-2005, 01:43 PM
Medaclorians: Could these be the physical manifestation of the Kami that influenced O'Sensei's training and teaching?

Umm.... or should I be looking for lightning to strike me at any moment for mentioning this on the Humor Forum? :blush:

bkedelen
01-14-2005, 02:31 PM
It is my understanding that some of the authors of Star Wars novels have at times interviewed Aikidoka and studied Aikiken for the purpose of making the swordsmanship in their texts more authentic. Furthermore Yoda is clearly an allusion to Osensei, which I believe is largely the fault of Old Joe Campbell's influence. Now that Lucas has changed the Jedi into a fascist order, I fear that Aikido and the Jedi are no longer related. Joe told me that anyone can follow the hero path, now I find out that my Midichlorian count is not high enough.

kironin
01-14-2005, 04:34 PM
It is my understanding that some of the authors of Star Wars novels have at times interviewed Aikidoka and studied Aikiken for the purpose of making the swordsmanship in their texts more authentic. Furthermore Yoda is clearly an allusion to Osensei,


Actually Yoda is supposed to have been modeled on Masao Shoji Sensei who was the Ki Society Chief instructor in the L.A. area at the time (70's and 80's, S. Cal. actually). George Lucas did know of him. Yoda looks a lot like Shoji Sensei. He was a tiny Hawaiian guy with droopy earlobes that could pin your head with his thumb (he pinned mine and I still haven't figured that one out). Shoji Sensei was the only non-policeman in the first group of students in the first class Tohei Sensei had in Hawaii in 1953. Unfortunately, he passed away last year.


However, the Lightsaber kumitachi lineage in the movies is clearly connected back to Grandmaster Errol Flynn !

http://www.errolflynn.net/Filmography/cb.htm
http://www.errolflynn.net/Filmography/rh.htm
:crazy:

Demetrio Cereijo
01-14-2005, 04:35 PM
Hi,

Some time ago, i found the "Jedi Budo" webpage, with things like:

"Jedi Budo is more than a system of techniques to control the Force (ki, chi, qi). It is a mystical journey of Light, a means to integrate body, heart, mind and soul in one focused release in keeping with the Four Quadrants (Physical, Mental, Emotional and Spiritual Realms). Because of this, it brings with it the wisdom of the ages, and a means to address conflict forthrightly while setting the feet squarely upon a path to Inner Wholeness and Resolution, Light, and Illumination.

Although Jedi Budo covers a broad curriculum including some of the best and most effective techniques found within many of the best martial arts - Kenpo, Kung Fu, Ju Jitsu, Judo, Aikido, Karate, Tae Kwon Do, T'ai Chi Ch'uan - it also includes within it the disciplines encompassing mental clarity, emotional solidity, and spiritual awareness. Three of these disciplines can be found in Jediism. Jedi Budo integrates the fourth discipline - the physical quadrant - in a full marriage with the other three quadrants for a more complete course in the journey towards wholeness and balance, addressing the physical needs of the students, and eventual integration with the Inner Jedi and therefore one's highest most optimum path of service to the Light."
http://www.jedibudo.com/about.html

I posted it in another MA related forum (http://www.bullshido.net/forums/archive/index.php/t-13285.html), to general enjoyment, but today the page isn't available.

Howhever, the website where the "Jedi Budo" page was located still exists, so if you are interested in the Jedi Religion, go here (http://jediism.org/)

kironin
01-14-2005, 04:49 PM
Although Jedi Budo covers a broad curriculum including some of the best and most effective techniques found within many of the best martial arts - Kenpo, Kung Fu, Ju Jitsu, Judo, Aikido, Karate, Tae Kwon Do, T'ai Chi Ch'uan - it also includes within it the disciplines encompassing mental clarity, emotional solidity, and spiritual awareness.


I heard a rumor that the Soke Council (tm) is planning to bring a lawsuit against the Jedi for illegal infringment of their proprietary methods and marketing.

Demetrio Cereijo
01-14-2005, 05:37 PM
More Jedi fun:
Sokaku Takeda (http://www.thepowerfanfilm.com/darkjedi.html)
Vs.
O Sensei (http://www.thepowerfanfilm.com/jedi.html)

ryujin
01-14-2005, 06:06 PM
However, the website where the "Jedi Budo" page was located still exists, so if you are interested in the Jedi Religion, go here (http://jediism.org/)

Man, after looking at that site, I can see why some would go over to the dark side.
:hypno:

mikeg
01-14-2005, 06:57 PM
Actually Yoda is supposed to have been modeled on Masao Shoji Sensei who was the Ki Society Chief instructor in the L.A. area at the time (70's and 80's, S. Cal. actually).
According to one source, Yoda was modeled on Tsenzhab Serkong Rinpoche (http://www.berzinarchives.com/bioghaphies/portrait_serkong_rinpoche.html#1), tutor to the Dalai Lama.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/c/c6/Yoda.gif

http://www.berzinarchives.com/assets/images/serkong-pastlife.jpg

You make the call. ;)

Jerry Miller
01-14-2005, 10:40 PM
I had always heard that Yoda's eyes were base on Albert Einsteins. There is substance to this if you do a web search.

justinc
01-14-2005, 11:36 PM
So let me express my inner geekness:

In the Jedi books, as well as the D20 RPG, they do go through a listing of the various lightsabre "forms". Forms here is a term for styles. There's 7 styles described, imaginatively enough, Form I through Form VII. From the basic writeups, they seem to correspond a lot to the different sword fighting styles - everything from simple hack and slash to grace, spinning, water-like movements. There are also several different unarmed martial arts styles, most of them are non-jedi. Tera Kasi is the most well known one as these people where known to be the only ones to be able to go one-on-one with a Jedi and have a fairly decent chance of winning (ie killing). The other well known style is Enchai, which is the style taught to the Emporer's guards (the scary guys in red cloaks and hoods). These people were all darkside force users, so somewhat jedi related.

Ok. I've shown my true colours. Time to run away and hide again :P

kironin
01-15-2005, 05:58 AM
According to one source, Yoda was modeled on Tsenzhab Serkong Rinpoche (http://www.berzinarchives.com/bioghaphies/portrait_serkong_rinpoche.html#1), tutor to the Dalai Lama.

You make the call. ;)

"was a massive man..." :D not quite.

it's a little vague on the details about Westerners seeing him in North India.

Shoji sensei was in L.A.

probably the truth is there was no one single source.

however if it comes to sources I know vs. a website reference,
the sources I know wins.
:cool:

kironin
01-15-2005, 07:22 AM
hmm... which one to pick for kumitachi practice ...
http://www.buystarwarsstuff.com/lightsabers.shtml

Jedi vs. the Bride
http://svr01.thump.net/640408/images/killbill/steel.jpg


I am in a Bubble of Light. :hypno:

Lan Powers
01-15-2005, 03:51 PM
Our Sensei actually trained for a time with Shoji Sensei and has made the image comparison to us many times....:) He was very respectfull of him as well, just thought it was funny that there was such a likeness to Yoda.
It is a blast to see this come up without all the negative stuff that humor often brings in..(people get so offended, so easily)
Joyfull training, all
Lan

John Boswell
01-17-2005, 10:55 AM
Joyfull training, all
Lan

What the hell do you mean by THAT??? I'm OFFENDED!! :p

Just kidding, Lan! ;)

BY THE WAY... does anyone have a picture, or link to a picture, of Shoji Sensei? All this talk of him, his look and his ability... have gotten me curious. What is even more curious is the fact that he is so highly regarded, but in my googling... I could find little to nothing on him.

I'd be very greatful for any articles or pictures or both with regard to Sensei Shoji.

Thanks,

Bronson
01-17-2005, 11:43 AM
Has anyone else seen the book "The Shimmering Sword" (http://www.echostation.com/interview/ShimmeringSword.htm) in the stores? It's supposed to be a book on lightsaber technique (assuming they actually existed)...I just can't bring myself to buy it :rolleyes:

Bronson

Tim Schmelter
01-28-2005, 09:27 AM
hmm... which one to pick for kumitachi practice ...
http://www.buystarwarsstuff.com/lightsabers.shtml


Of course, a real Jedi builds his own lightsaber. :)

--Tim

Jim Sorrentino
01-28-2005, 10:46 AM
Has anyone else seen the book "The Shimmering Sword" (http://www.echostation.com/interview/ShimmeringSword.htm) in the stores? It's supposed to be a book on lightsaber technique (assuming they actually existed)...I just can't bring myself to buy it :rolleyes:

Bronson

Bronson,

I know the author, Nick Jamilla, and I have practiced with him many times at Aikido Shobukan Dojo in Washington, DC. Nick is a sincere and dedicated aikidoka and kendoka, as well as an intelligent and thoughtful writer and Star Wars fan. His book is quite enjoyable --- I highly recommend it!

Sincerely,

Jim

njamilla
03-28-2005, 12:49 PM
It's Nick Jamilla, author of Shimmering Sword. Why haven't you bought the book yet? Get it at Amazon.com (Shimmering Sword) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0971879605/qid=1112034066/sr=2-1/ref=pd_ka_b_2_1/002-1609187-1116004) .

My book doesn't go into lightsaber forms. If you want David West Reynold's creation of those forms (which are vague, general descriptions of movement not kata per se), you should go to: Jedi Fighting Styles (http://jediarchives.bejedi.com/index.php?c=fighting_styles#Form%20I). I don't agree with the premise from which he created the descriptions. He parsed the movies and formulated a hierarchy of moves.

My book is about fencing, honor, and Star Wars. It discusses swordsmanship historically and examines real world precedents for the Jedi from the point of view of Western fencing and Japanese swordsmanship. You can go to the webpage at: Shimmering Sword.com (http://www.shimmeringsword.com)

I did create lightsaber choreography for an independent fan film called Revelations (Revelations Homepage) (http://www.panicstruckpro.com/revelations/). It includes an Interview (http://www.panicstruckpro.com/revelations/fanzine/fanzine_files/03/feature301.html) as well as a trailer (http://www.panicstruckpro.com/revelations/revelations_media.html) for the film which will be released for download on April 16, 2005.

As for all the other references, especially to aikido being a precedent for Star Wars Jedi, it's just not there. People can make all sorts of comparisons to so-called martial art, or specifically aikido, references in Star Wars, but there are no direct connections. Obi-Wan being derived from Obi-san kendo gi, influences from O Sensei and Rinpoche, etc.are references that I've never come across during my research. There are borrowings generally from Japanese (and Asian) culture but none specifically mentioned as direct influences on Lucas. Apart from Joseph Campbell's writings, Lucas has remained silent on the specific books he's consulted when creating his universe. The same for the writers who have helped him finish off his scripts. The previous mention of Yoda's eyes being inspired by Einstein's eyes, however, is true.

The similarity between the Jedi and my own experience with ki, aikido, and kendo do seem to find parallels in Star Wars, which is how I began linking martial arts and Star Wars in my writings. But hearsay connections and wishful thinking do not make good research.

John Boswell
03-28-2005, 02:09 PM
We're just having fun, Nick! :D

Don't take any of this too seriously. ;)

njamilla
03-29-2005, 08:16 AM
Don't take any of this too seriously.

LOL. Guess that's my problem.

My first visit to the website. Nice place.

giriasis
03-29-2005, 08:55 AM
My book doesn't go into lightsaber forms. If you want David West Reynold's creation of those forms (which are vague, general descriptions of movement not kata per se), you should go to: Jedi Fighting Styles. I don't agree with the premise from which he created the descriptions. He parsed the movies and formulated a hierarchy of moves.

Actually, these are the official Jedi forms within the Star Wars Universe not just made up by some fan. Checkout the game book for Knights of the Old Rebuplic II: Sith Lords at your local Best Buy.

njamilla
03-29-2005, 09:57 PM
official Jedi forms within the Star Wars Universe

Official EU, but bad martial arts. Reynolds wrote it for Star Wars Insider Magazine.

samurai_kenshin
03-30-2005, 11:29 AM
Over on another thread, we've established that the Klingon race of Star Trek fame have their own martial arts weapons, style and even got a book on the subject!

So I, in my infinite wisdom, have created a thread over here for the Star Wars fanatics out there with regard to THOSE martial arts and weapons! :rolleyes:

The Klingon "Mok'bara" has been compared to Tai Chi as well as Koren ma's. Anyone have input on the origination of the Jedi arts? :confused:

Domo arigato... and may the force be with you! :p
The Jedi arts look very similar to some Japanese swords arts such as kendo and even a few aikido looking moves. I swear i saw someone doing "go no kumitachi" in episode 2...

Casey Martinson
03-30-2005, 12:29 PM
What makes a Star Wars universe feature "official"? My fan-dom has never gone beyond sincere admiration of the original movies (never read the books or played the games). But having made that disclaimer, in my mind, nothing is official unless it comes straight from George Lucas, at least as long as he is alive and still producing material.

If there were light saber styles, I expect they would be quite different from Earth fencing styles in a number of regards. This would just be inherent in the nature of the weapon. First, unlike metal swords, all points of the light saber are equally dangerous. Second, the light blade cuts through just about anything except another light saber, and requires no force at all (other than THE FORCE) to make a cut. And aside from the fighting aspect of light saber usage, there may be some utility arts like the art of opening blast doors by penetrating them with the light blade until they just melt away (see Episode I). Perhaps you could also use the light saber to boil water? Just how many BTUs are given off by one of these things anyway?

I'm no expert on japanese sword arts either, but as far as I can tell, in an ideal encounter, there will be very little fencing. The duel is over before it has even begun, with only one or two strokes being made by either combatant. Obviously, that is not the case in the light saber duels we've seen on film.

giriasis
03-30-2005, 01:28 PM
What makes a Star Wars universe feature "official"? My fan-dom has never gone beyond sincere admiration of the original movies (never read the books or played the games). But having made that disclaimer, in my mind, nothing is official unless it comes straight from George Lucas, at least as long as he is alive and still producing material.

Nick was more accurate to say that these Forms are "Expanded Universe", and I'm not sure how "canon" these are as to people really get into hugh debates as to what is and is not canon in the Star Wars Universe. But they are part and parcel of the LucasFilm Licensing and therefore has George Lucas' stamp of approval. That to me is enough to be "official".

"Official" I believe that it is something sanctioned by George Lucas. I believe if it has a LucasFilm seal on it then he has technically approved it. There are the movies (Ep. 1-6) and then there is the "Expanded Universe". Expanded Universe material are those materials that fall outside the movies which include books, comics (graphic novels), cartoons (i.e. the Clone Wars series on Cartoon Network), video games. If you really want to get into some debates on that matter check our www.theforce.net Go to their forums (Jedi Council Discussion Boards).

Regarding the Lightsabe Forms, if you go to the link that Nick provided you will find a reference to "Forms" there are seven in all and have names, too. They are more like "Styles" than katas and are used depending on the circumstances. One would use Form I against multiple opponents and Form VII against another Force user (one on one combat) with a lightsaber but not against multiple users because a Jedi is then vulnerable to other attacks while too busy focusing his/ her use of The Force. The seven Forms outlined in KOTOR:II -- The Sith Lords (which is a Lucas Arts Video game)(which has essentially adapted the Forms spelled out in the Star Wars Insider Magazine) are:
Shii-Cho (Form I)
Makashi (Form 2)
Soresu (Form 3)
Ataru (Form 4)
Shien (Form 5)
Niman (Form 6)
Juyo (Form 7)
The game itself describes each form but if you go to the above link you'll get a good description, too.
It's my understanding that the First Form is supposed to be the most equivalent to how we practice martial arts. BUT, all the other "Forms" are based on one's mastery of "The Force", which of course does not exist in our real world lives -- only found within the fantasy of the Star Wars Universe.

It's my understanding that Mark Hamill trained in Kendo before filming Empire and in the Prequel films the stunt coordinator (Nick Guillard?) has stated that he has taken from different martial arts to get a feel for different styles. Apparently, Count Dooku's style was supposed be modeled after fencing, Darth Maul had a big wushu influence thanks to Ray Parks. I believe in the next film, if you saw the Ep. III trailer we will get see Force vs. Force fighting (Anakin v. Obi-wan) and not just your traditional japanese sword fighting.

Karen King
03-31-2005, 06:57 PM
"Perhaps you could use the light saber to boil water...?"

I love it!! You've got me thinking about the practical applications of a light saber...better than a Ginsu steak knife..."it slices, it dices, it cooks ALL AT THE SAME TIME!!!"
You could use it to cauterize wounds, light your way in the dark, maybe a white noise generator (AND take care of the forces of darkness)...kind of a Slacker's Jedi...I bet if you're in a dark room and wave it around really fast, you can write your name...

Tim Gerrard
04-01-2005, 05:27 AM
I bet if you're in a dark room and wave it around really fast, you can write your name...

I bet Obi-Wan Kenobi was pretty screwed then.... :D

njamilla
04-01-2005, 01:34 PM
I actually did create some lightsaber choreography for an independent Star Wars fan film called Revelations (http://www.panicstruckpro.com/revelations/revelations.html). It's a home made film with a story and characters set in Lucas's universe.

Pictures of Saotome Sensei's dojo are here:Training at DC Dojo (http://www.panicstruckpro.com/revelations/fanzine/fanzine_files/03/dojo/dojo.html) We asked for permission to use the dojo for basic Japanese kendo and sword training for the actors of the film.

An interview I gave about the choreography can be found here: (Interview) (http://www.panicstruckpro.com/revelations/fanzine/fanzine_files/03/feature301.html) Another interview I gave about my book can be found here: (Book Interview) (http://echostation.com/interview/ShimmeringSword.htm)

And if you want to see me here: Lightsaber Fight Pics (http://www.panicstruckpro.com/revelations/cavern_shoot.html). I'm in the 3rd and 4th pictures on the left. I play the equivalent of Darth Maul in this movie.

Most fan films are pretty amateur, but download the trailer Trailer Link (http://www.panicstruckpro.com/revelations/revelations_media.html) and you'll see it looks pretty good. You'll need Quicktime.

All the choreography borrows from mostly Japanese ken and rapier and dagger/Musashi two-sword. A couple of moves are borrowed from jodo.

Adam Alexander
04-02-2005, 05:26 PM
As I understand it, Lucas basically "sampled" a Kurosawa film (or possibly two or three) to make Star Wars.

I don't know anything about the "martial art" of the Jedi's (I can't help but laugh when I say that).

I guess Lucas actually said that Kurosawa was a heavy influence on the movie/s. However, after watching "The Seven Samurai," I can't believe that there's any authentic martial principles taken from Kurosawa--drastic difference between sword fights that last one cut and sword fights that are fought like a dance: 1,2,3,4, and 1,2,3,4, and high,low, right, left, and low,high, left, right...

However, when the Death Star grips the ship with Obi, Luke and cast in the tractor beam, that was definitely "enter when pulled."

Adam Alexander
04-02-2005, 05:28 PM
Oh, by the way: Luuuke...I am yourrr faaaathaaa...

samurai_kenshin
04-07-2005, 11:32 PM
"Perhaps you could use the light saber to boil water...?"

.
Actually according to starwars.com lightsabers don't emit heat until they touch a solid object (i.e. walls, blaster barrels, etc.) It would be cool if you could though...
:ai::ki::do: all the way!

dan guthrie
04-08-2005, 12:03 AM
Actually according to starwars.com lightsabers don't emit heat until they touch a solid object (i.e. walls, blaster barrels, etc.) It would be cool if you could though...
:ai::ki::do: all the way!

So they'd heat ice? and liquefy it? But wouldn't heat liquid oxygen? But they would heat dry ice? Cut dry ice floating in a bed of liguid oxygen and it would only sublime the dry ice leaving the liquid oxygen the same temperature???

Man, they must be magic!!! Carry on. :)

samurai_kenshin
04-08-2005, 11:19 AM
So they'd heat ice? and liquefy it? But wouldn't heat liquid oxygen? But they would heat dry ice? Cut dry ice floating in a bed of liguid oxygen and it would only sublime the dry ice leaving the liquid oxygen the same temperature???

Man, they must be magic!!! Carry on. :)
Hell i dunno! Must be magic...