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Rupert Atkinson
01-12-2005, 07:25 PM
I heard that Chiba Sensei gives out his own certs. What does this mean?

In the UK, some orgs give out their own certs. These groups usually have no affiliation with Japan in terms of certificates. Their certs are made-in-the-UK, for the UK and may or may not be recognised elsewhere. But, as far as I know, all Aikikai affiliated groups give made-in-the-UK Kyu grades but get all their Dan grades from Japan. Thus, Aikikai Dan grades are recognised everywhere - or should be anyway, otherwise it makes no sense.

So, what does it mean if Chiba Sensei gives out his own grades? And why, for what purpose? Is that something like how Iwama used to be? Is it a trend? Do Chiba Sensei's students also receive Hombu certs? If not, are Chiba Senseis' certs recognised outside of his school? Because he is who he is, I imagine so, but what of leser mortals?

Are there any other Aikikai orgs that give out their own certs? Has anyone here not had their grade recognised when moving dojo?

Just curious ...

---------------------------------
PS If someone from Ki Aikido, Yoshinakan or wherever enters my dojo I will not ask them to wear a white belt - I will recognise what they have - Kyu or Dan. In fact, I may prefer that they wear it.

raul rodrigo
01-12-2005, 07:37 PM
A friend of mine is a student of Chiba who just made shodan a few months back. His certificate is from the Aikikai Hombu.

batemanb
01-13-2005, 01:16 AM
Hi Rupert,

I believe that this explains it quite succintly.

http://www.birankai.org/birankai.birth.htm


Regards

Bryan

rob_liberti
01-13-2005, 06:58 AM
Interesting article but I'm not clear about something. Are the 3 shihan titles he gave out recognized by Hombu or only by his new Birankai organization?

Thanks,
Rob

jimbaker
01-13-2005, 07:27 AM
That should be "10 Shihan titles he gave out..."
http://www.usafwr.org/WRpages/wr_teachers.htm

It is unclear if the titles are Hombu recognized or in-house titles of the Birankai.

Jim Baker
Aikido of Norfolk

aikidoc
01-13-2005, 08:28 AM
I suspect it is an organization shihan title. It is a teaching title. One can be the shihan of the organization but not necessarily with the aikikai. I believe organizations are supposed to follow the aikikai rules and inform the aikikai when people are given such ranks. However, I do not think the aikikai recognizes shidoin for example awarded by the organizations under it's umbrella. In other words, a shidoin rank awarded by one of the major organizations AAA, ASU, USAF, Barankai, etc. would not necessarily be recognized as a hombu certification. The only thing I have seen written in the aikikai rules is the issue of notifying them when such organizations award the title.

Fred Little
01-13-2005, 09:34 AM
I suspect it is an organization shihan title. It is a teaching title. One can be the shihan of the organization but not necessarily with the aikikai. I believe organizations are supposed to follow the aikikai rules and inform the aikikai when people are given such ranks. However, I do not think the aikikai recognizes shidoin for example awarded by the organizations under it's umbrella. In other words, a shidoin rank awarded by one of the major organizations AAA, ASU, USAF, Barankai, etc. would not necessarily be recognized as a hombu certification. The only thing I have seen written in the aikikai rules is the issue of notifying them when such organizations award the title.

John --

It's not really a big deal, but although it's always possible that somebody out there has some title or paper I'm not aware of, although I've seen documentation of the use of "shidoin" and "fuku-shidoin" within USAF and AAA, I haven't encountered it in ASU.

Best regards,

Fred Little

aikidoc
01-13-2005, 09:51 AM
They may not use it-I was just throwing out the organizations.

Here's what the hombu website says:

2. The titles for instructorsf qualification are written in Japanese.
Article 16 SHIHAN
1. The Hombu examines and appoints Shihan from among persons who are 6th dan or above, and who are proficient in practice and instructing.
2. To the appointed person, a Certificate of Appointment is awarded by the Hombu.
Article 17 SHIDOIN AND FUKUSHIDOIN
1. An Aikido organization with Hombu Recognition is to have a system for qualifying Shidoin and Fukushidoin.
(1) Shidoin are persons of 4th dan or above
(2) Fukushidoin are persons of 2nd dan or 3rd dan
2. An Aikido organization with Hombu Recognition can issue a Certificate of Appointment to those whom it has appointed Shidoin and Fukushidoin.
3. An Aikido organization with Hombu Recognition must report to the Hombu the name and dan grades of those whom it has appointed Shidoin and Fukushidoin.

NagaBaba
01-13-2005, 08:37 PM
If not, are Chiba Senseis' certs recognised outside of his school? .
Rupert,
I prefer to get 5th kyu personaly from Chiba sensei than 5th dan from Hombu aikikai. What do you you prefer? ;)

Do you really understand who is Chiba sensei?

Joe Bowen
01-13-2005, 11:25 PM
Rupert,
I prefer to get 5th Kyu personally from Chiba sensei than 5th dan from Hombu Aikikai. What do you prefer? ;)
Do you really understand who is Chiba sensei?

I think that most people who have been practicing Aikikai Aikido will probably understand who Chiba Sensei is. Let me give you my understanding.....

Chiba Sensei is a rather good, intense and experienced Aikido instructor. He falls within a similar grouping of Aikido instructors all of who have spent many years under the tutelage of O Sensei, Tohei Sensei and Kisshomaru Ueshiba Sensei. Chiba Sensei has a rather intense and dynamic style to Aikido that I admire very much, and while I've only visited his dojo in San Diego once, I try as best I can to extrapolate ideas from how he executes his techniques from videos from him. Not as good as studying under him, I realize but I'm on the other side of the Pacific, so you must understand there is not much opportunity for me to train with him. I have had the opportunity to train with other 8th Dan Shihan from other organizations from around the world, as well as having trained from time to time at the Aikikai Hombu Dojo. I've seen and attended many seminars with many good, intense and experienced Aikido instructors.
And while I have the utmost respect for Chiba Sensei, I would caution folks that put any Aikido instructor on too high a pedestal. Chiba Sensei is human, and puts his pants on one leg at a time like the rest of us mere mortals. To keep a perspective on this, ask someone you know that doesn't practice Aikido, or practices any other style of Aikido (Tomiki, Yoshinkan, Ki Society) if they know who Chiba Sensei is and you'll find that they probably don't know and probably won't care much about your adoration of him.
Chiba Sensei is a great instructor, and if the opportunity presents itself, I'll jump at the chance to train with him, but in my egalitarian heart, I'm uncomfortable putting one individual so far above any others.

To address the initial drift of the thread, you might find that rival organization dojos may not recognize the instructor titles issued by Chiba Sensei's organization, but they would probably recognize the Dan rankings. Not that it would matter very much anyway. I do agree with Rupert though, regardless of where someone comes from, if they show up to train with me, I won't make an issue of their rank….

PeterR
01-14-2005, 12:03 AM
Hey I know who Chiba sensei is - I attended a small seminar with him in Paul Sylvain's old dojo.
One thing I noticed right away is how similar my teacher and he moved.

That said - Rupert's right. Chiba's great but human. Pedestals are for dead guys.

Rupert Atkinson
01-14-2005, 04:36 AM
The last time I saw Chiba Sensei was in the UK about 1990 or 1991. Of course, he was very good and threw the Dan grades, myself included, pretty fast and furious. I have no beef with him handing out certs, but wonder what it means. What happens when he's gone? For example, in old Iwama people could get Aikikai certs if they wanted - some did, some didn't. If they didn't, I wonder if they could still get them now - if they wanted - since Saito Senior has passed away ...

But in answer Szczepan above, I have a genuine Yoshinkan 6th Kyu from Gozo Shioda. My best cert :) He visited out club in Urayasu, Chiba (Ando Tsuneo Sensei) and graded us.

Pauliina Lievonen
01-14-2005, 06:01 AM
http://www.birankai.org/CEurope/ce.birth.htm

Seems to explain the issue quite clearly...

kvaak
Pauliina

Pauliina Lievonen
01-14-2005, 06:06 AM
...and now I realize it's exactly the same as what bryan had already posted...doh...

kvaak
Pauliina

NagaBaba
01-14-2005, 08:32 AM
The last time I saw Chiba Sensei was in the UK about 1990 or 1991. Of course, he was very good and threw the Dan grades, myself included, pretty fast and furious. I have no beef with him handing out certs, but wonder what it means. What happens when he's gone? For example, in old Iwama people could get Aikikai certs if they wanted - some did, some didn't. If they didn't, I wonder if they could still get them now - if they wanted - since Saito Senior has passed away ...

But in answer Szczepan above, I have a genuine Yoshinkan 6th Kyu from Gozo Shioda. My best cert :) He visited out club in Urayasu, Chiba (Ando Tsuneo Sensei) and graded us.
So you understand he has developped direct, personal relation Master-student, for him, his students, are not numbers that pay dipoma fees (as it is standard behaviour with ranks from Hombu aikikai). He supervise them closely and since they were 5 kyu. It is not suprising, that he gave shihans cert for them.
Who cares if other organisations respect this certs. Rank is important between teacher and student.

NagaBaba
01-14-2005, 08:41 AM
I think that most people who have been practicing Aikikai Aikido will probably understand who Chiba Sensei is. Let me give you my understanding….
Oh, I know he is not a god, but only half-god ;)
But what is important, that he is one of the rare shihans actually involved in direct transmission between teacher and student. He teaches in very intensive and systematic way, not only technical but also spiritual side of aikido. The certs he gave for his students have different meaning then impersonal ranks from Hombu. He back up these certs with his reputation and this is more then enough.

Chris Li
01-14-2005, 12:09 PM
Oh, I know he is not a god, but only half-god ;)
But what is important, that he is one of the rare shihans actually involved in direct transmission between teacher and student. He teaches in very intensive and systematic way, not only technical but also spiritual side of aikido. The certs he gave for his students have different meaning then impersonal ranks from Hombu. He back up these certs with his reputation and this is more then enough.

All of my certificates are from hombu, and none of them are impersonal. That is, all of the certificates were granted through close relationships with the recommending responsible parties. Just because rank is granted through an organization doesn't mean that it's meaningless.

The certificates would be backed by his reputation even if they were granted through hombu - that's not the problem. The problem is what happens in the future - we've already seen the problems that arose with Iwama-ryu certifications after Saito passed away, and that this type of practice tends to dilute the already tenuous structure of the Aikikai. Now, if you don't think that the Aikikai is very important, then this probably doesn't worry you very much. OTOH, if you think that a flexible umbrella organization where groups with differing methodology but similar goals can gather is of some importance then the problem seems, IMO, fairly clear.

Best,

Chris

aikidoc
01-14-2005, 12:46 PM
I just wonder how they get around the aikikai regulations:

"(2) Dan grades are legitimated by the Doshu of Aikido. An Aikido organization which has been given Hombu Recognition must hold in esteem the Aikido dan grades legitimated by the Doshu. The members of that organization must obtain dan grades to be legitimated by the Doshu and registered at the Hombu regardless of a situation in which national dan grades are issued by the country or government due to the national legislation or some other reason."

Having a separate organization and giving them options would seem to be in violations of the international regulations of hombu.

Chris Li
01-14-2005, 12:55 PM
I just wonder how they get around the aikikai regulations:

The same way that Saito did - hombu has zero leverage and Chiba has a bunch.

Best,

Chris

aikidoc
01-14-2005, 02:11 PM
Organizations that seek hombu recognition have to sign an agreement to abide by hombu rules. Apparently, this did not apply when some of the older shihan started.