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Fred Little
01-08-2005, 08:46 AM
[Editor's note: Original thread from which this thread was spawned is here: http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7279]

Wow!

Look very closely at the picture with the sword. Look on the wall behind him. There's a pair of Klingon Batleths hanging there. Surely, every comprehensive Japanese martial art includes use of the batleth.

Please have your phaser with you if you're going dojo storming, and remember, as long as your phaser is set to stun, it's still aikido.

Best,

Fred Little

Greg Jennings
01-08-2005, 08:47 AM
Posture ? Nope no sword posture there. Plus the 'weapon' he's holding looks very much like a cheep Spanish reproduction "fantasy" sword. Nothing a serious sword user or indeed any martial artist would touch with a barge-pole.

Its nothing more that a wall hanger and a tacky bit of shite at that.

Did you notice the Klingon weapons hanging on the wall behind that picture?

Addendum: Dang, Fred, you beat me to it!

Best,

Qatana
01-08-2005, 09:51 AM
Not to give this guy any credibility at all, I think the guy who came up with the Batlith choreography created somethng quite lovely to watch.
I'd study it if I had the opportunity...hmmm, guess my certificate would have to come from Paramount Pictures then.
Of course we always found it amusing to find them for sale at Renaissance Faire weapons booths- real authentic 16th century Space Weapons.Then again, I have seen Klingons at the Faire. As well as some pretty interesting looking Samurai...

David Humm
01-08-2005, 10:05 AM
Greg.. Fred Indeed I did see those but failed to engage (pardon the pun) the Trekkie brain cell (yes I have more than one!) and register what they were.

At this juncture I'd like to coin my favourite descriptive for this person but I'm sure I'll be told to "calm" my language for fear of upsetting the politically correct or just plain easily offended.

Gutted ! :rolleyes:

So... Say what you see lol

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/home.address/knobjocky.PNG

SmilingNage
01-10-2005, 10:28 AM
Like the the credit card commercial:

Suspect teaching credentials: scary
Noticing klingon weapons in the photo: more scary
Knowing the name of said weapon: alarming

lol

now for
*jedi mind trick*
"these arent the droids you are looking for"

Qatana
01-10-2005, 10:53 AM
Why do you find it alarming that we know a Klingon weapon when we see one and know what it is called? Is it alarming that a community of mostly Americans should be aware of their cultural heritage? Cuz like it or not, TV is pretty much the Arbiter of culture in this country.
At least Klingon has a fully developed language and forms of martial arts. They may not be "legitimate" but they do exist and are practiced by a community every bit as intelligent as this one.And possibly More open-minded.
And if I had the opportunity to study Kilngon martial Arts, I would research the instructors qualification and lineage as thoroughly as I did my dojo.


...sez the girl with the Klingon Name

SmilingNage
01-10-2005, 11:29 AM
Hmmmm
You miss the tongue and cheek approach that I used. Note the classic obi wan sentence.
This will teach me to cross swords with a trekker.
For the record, there is nothing wrong with knowing that, albeit odd, but its your boat float it your own way. We all have our "areas" of pursuit. I enjoy alot of sci fi myself, will more than alot.

Live long and prosper
and I will be sure to run when I see you wielding that klingon weapon

happysod
01-10-2005, 11:32 AM
And if I had the opportunity to study Kilngon martial Arts, I would research the instructors qualification and lineage as thoroughly as I did my dojo I've got to ask, how could you possibly have a "legitimate Klingon lineage" - I have to say I find the concept of putting a purely fictional sci-fi race/combat system in the same terms as any more mundane terrestrial martial art rather disturbing. They might be impressively knowledgeable about their subject, but at the end of the day it's still just all make-believe Jo, no matter how obsessive the fan.

Qatana
01-10-2005, 11:46 AM
It is a weapon. SOMEBODY had to figure out how to use that weapon. I would think that lineage in this situation would be to the person who developed the original theatrical prop and choreography, which DID develop into a system of combat. I never said anything about "Klingon lineage". Somebody who studied this system in the context of TV choreography is still a part of a "lineage".

I'm sure the fight choreograher has Some kind of "legitimate", :earthly" background in MA of some kind as well, and they should also be forthcoming on their training background in the context of their deveoping their style. If Batlith combat was purely fictional, there wouldn't BE people who are able to use and spar with them today.

I bet somebody thought fifty years ago that what OSenei was doing was also make-believe. Gods know, there are people today who practice aikido who think so. These few threads about legitimacy all seem to agree that someone can create their own style of martial arts. OSensei did. Why shouldn't a Stage Combat Specialist create something that could, and is, developing into something that is actually a viable art? Because we don't fight with swords any more?

I think its just about as "make-believe" as people putting on 100 pounds of armor and getting on a horse and riding at each other with long wooden sticks.

Qatana
01-10-2005, 12:01 PM
And when I come to think of it, forty years ago, a device that fits in your pocket with a lid that flips open, giving you the ability to communicate with anyone, anywhere, from anywhere, was also "make-believe".
They were also "invented" by a Star Trek writer & a prop maker.

kironin
01-10-2005, 01:01 PM
Why shouldn't a Stage Combat Specialist create something that could, and is, developing into something that is actually a viable art? Because we don't fight with swords any more?


uh, what kind of viable art ? certainly not a martial art.
why would it ever develop into something that is not the goal.

the goals of stage combat are very different from a martial art that wants to be useful in some manner for self-defense.

stage combat aims to provide drama to a story. to engage the audience visually in a conflict between actors acting as combatants. To appear deadly or to cause harm but not actually get anyone hurt. To that end there are certainly teachers of stage combat.

sometimes a martial art may as side effect of it's goals provide some visual drama for an audience at a demonstration, but it better not be the actual goal. A stage combat teacher may draw upon some of those moves to provide a sense of realism but almost certainly the choreography will remain choreography.

Eroll Flynn sword-fighting style never became anything other than stage combat. Why would the Klingon Bathleth be any different. Don't kid yourself. It was created for form not function.

Qatana
01-10-2005, 01:34 PM
I said Viable, didn't I? I didn't say Legitimate Martial Art. i said "viable art ". You quoted "viable art".

If I practice Aikido because I find it aesthetically pleasing then, and not for self defense, then I am not practicing a Martial Art. If I practice Batlith for the same reason, then I have to define aikido as a Physical Art Form as well.
Its all in the motivation. If I just happen to be able to fight off an invader in my home bacause I know how to handle a Stage Prop effectively, then this glorified Dance Form becomes Self-defense.
Since every aikido technique I've ever learned was choreographed and I am expected to figure out, in a period of several years, how to apply it in a self defense situation, I really don't see the difference.
A Martial Art may be created using ANY Thing. Legitimacy is defined by Agreement.
And most of the Combat choreographers of my acquaintance study a LOT of "legitimate" martial arts.How do you know that Batleth technique CAN"T become a legitimate art in time?

kironin
01-10-2005, 05:11 PM
sure, everything is relative

let's just say we disagree on many levels and call it day.

synonyms for viable
feasible, possible, practicable, workable

Chris Birke
01-10-2005, 05:34 PM
This discussion is the most fascinating I've read here in months.

"Its all in the motivation. If I just happen to be able to fight off an invader in my home bacause I know how to handle a Stage Prop effectively, then this glorified Dance Form becomes Self-defense.
Since every aikido technique I've ever learned was choreographed and I am expected to figure out, in a period of several years, how to apply it in a self defense situation, I really don't see the difference."

I think that if this is true, then I can't claim to see a difference either.

Don_Modesto
01-10-2005, 10:14 PM
It is a weapon. SOMEBODY had to figure out how to use that weapon. I would think that lineage in this situation would be to the person who developed the original theatrical prop and choreography, which DID develop into a system of combat.

Methinks of Jackie Chan wielding the deadly coat hanger--nail that sucker, Jackie! ...er, that seersucker!

SmilingNage
01-10-2005, 11:24 PM
If thats the case:
then I am the soke wet towel snapping.

Run in fear of me when I have the towel with the wet tip. Travelling (the wet towel tip)at subsonic speed to leave a welt on your bootie.!!!

Be in all of my "soked"-towel-do!!!!!!

This is such a silly thread

PeterR
01-10-2005, 11:33 PM
Not so silly - does anyone remember the name of a martial art that uses a walking cane as it's primary weapon, the umbrella and need I mention farm implements. I've seen Wushu performances that use chairs.

happysod
01-11-2005, 02:55 AM
Peter, the development of using a walking stick etc. for combat makes sense as it's just adapting commonly used implements to maximise their effective use as a make-shift weapon.

The Klingon weapons I presume are more akin to true arms such as swords - now if someone could show they are effective and well designed weapons which are superior in some ways to existing weapons, I'd probably change my mind on their inclusion in martial arts (and no I don't accept stage combat as validating their use). However, most martial arts weapons (lets ignore nun chucks and sai for now) at least have proven abilities when applied to the battlefield - I'd be very surprised if the inventions of a sci-fi soap opera writing team could really come up with a truly useful weapon.

Jo - you're correct in that the correlation between scientific inventions and current sci-fi fiction is nothing new. However, this hardly relates to the invention of a new outmoded pole-arm by an alien race surely?

Bridge
01-11-2005, 03:55 AM
Hmmmm

This will teach me to cross swords with a trekker.


Q: What's the difference between a trekkie and a trekker?

A: One wonders what sex in zero gravity would be like. The other wonders what sex would be like.

Sorry, couldn't resist cheap gag. I'll put my spoon away. :)

Yann Golanski
01-11-2005, 04:09 AM
I'd be very surprised if the inventions of a sci-fi soap opera writing team could really come up with a truly useful weapon.

OK, I know that this is not what you meat but:

1- Mass drivers: take a large rock and smash it from space onto a planet. Who was it that said "When I want to attack someone, I find the biggest things around. So far, I have not found bigger than the Earth."

2- Beam weapons, in particular laser which are now deployed by some services in the US army. Including but not exhaustively: sonic, plasma and gauss.

3- Dune and its shields which require the attacker to slow down his attack otherwise the shield holds. This would develop a whole new martial art. Of course, Herbert's Dune is full of strange semi-mystical things explained by "body control".

...

Let's face it. Martial arts while useful don't beat missiles or combat robots -- which BTW are being deployed in Iraq.

happysod
01-11-2005, 04:26 AM
Yann, naughty, the argument was all w.r.t. a personal combat weapon, akin to outmoded pole-arms, but I'll bite anyway.

1. & 2. : I think you'll find they were postulated by credible scientists who also just happened to write sci-fi, rather than soap-opera hacks

3. [geek mode] your mixing up the bene-gesserit wierding way with adaptions to knife fighting with kinetic shields, shame on you

As regards combat robots... I think a decent martial artist should win hands down against these so far as I believe they're proving to be rather crap as combatives. Also, as the only ones I've heard of still need a human operator, so I'd actually classify these as combat waldos rather than robots. [/geek mode]

mj
01-11-2005, 04:35 AM
3- Dune and its shields which require the attacker to slow down his attack otherwise the shield holds. This would develop a whole new martial art. Of course, Herbert's Dune is full of strange semi-mystical things explained by "body control"...
Ah yes, Dune. The mythical story of a desert dwelling people who control the means of transport.

Matt Molloy
01-11-2005, 04:48 AM
Ah yes, Dune. The mythical story of a desert dwelling people who control the means of transport.

Not fair Mark. You made me think early in the morning.

:D

Cheers,

Matt.

Keith_k
01-11-2005, 05:29 AM
[geek mode] Isn't it odd, that Dune, written in the fifties, depicts a group of religiously fanatical people, living in a desert, fending off an empire who's sole purpose is to control the substance that is the vital to all meaningful modes of transportation? Coincidence, or did Mr. Herbert take a few hits of melange himself to make sure that his work was relevant in the 21st century? I'd like to think so :) [/geek mode]

SmilingNage
01-11-2005, 08:33 AM
For some reason unknown to me, trekkers seem to be offended by the term "trekie". I think because it resembles groupie with the ie on the end of it. Dunno.

But thats pretty funny Bridge

akiy
01-11-2005, 11:01 AM
Peter, the development of using a walking stick etc. for combat makes sense as it's just adapting commonly used implements to maximise their effective use as a make-shift weapon.
Case in point -- the Japanese character for "tsue" which means "walking stick" is the same as that for "jo" (as in the wooden staff we often use in aikido training).

As for the Star Trek thing, I can't say I've watched enough of any of the shows to make a comment. I've met some folks who worked on the "Next Generation" show, though, as a friend of mine worked on it, too...

-- Jun

John Boswell
01-11-2005, 11:02 AM
YES!! THIS IS TRUE!! Klingon martial arts for for REAL! :hypno:

Peace out, y'all! I'm gonna go train in a TRUE Budo!! :D

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1890065005/002-6119071-2061607?v=glance

Secret Fighting Arts of the Warrior Race: Betleh Yigel
by Hetaq Dogwi (Illustrator), Hetaq Doqwl' (Illustrator)


1 used & new from $190.06

Edition: Paperback
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Editorial Reviews

Valley Press, January 15, 1997
If his book was not filled with Klingon cultural messages and photographs showing alien warriors wielding the multi-bladed curved betleH, it could pass as a traditional martial arts manual. Ample illustrations accompany detailed descriptions of each move as the book advances from stances to warm-up exercises to a full training set, a sequence of moves titled SIS 'Iw or Rain of Blood.

Product Description:
The first book of its kind! Klingon(R) Martial Arts instruction. You will find inspiring proverbs rendered in the Klingon language, detailed betleH instruction including 255 photos, empty hand techniques to disarm a warrior with a betleH, warrior humor, and more! "Klingon" is a Registered Trademark of Paramount Pictures.

See all Editorial Reviews

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Product Details

Paperback
Publisher: Pacific Warriors Inc (April 1, 1997)
ISBN: 1890065005
Product Dimensions: 0.5 x 6.2 x 9.0 inches
Shipping Weight: 10.4 ounces.

Average Customer Review: based on 1 review. (Write a review)
Amazon.com Sales Rank in Books: #139,544
(Publishers and authors: improve your sales)

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Write an online review and share your thoughts with other customers.

15 of 15 people found the following review helpful:

Fight like a Klingon warrior!, December 20, 2001
Reviewer: Chapulina R (Tovarischi Imports, USA/RUS) - See all my reviews

This volume was intended to be the first in a series by a Kung Fu Master on fighting technique with Klingon weapons. Step-by-step instruction begins with correct stance, warm-up, and forms. Then take your 'uSDu' (fighting stance) and raise your betleH! The Master and his female co-instructor demonstrate through sequences of black-and-white photos, real offensive and defensive technique with the sickle-like blade. You'll learn to use your betleH against an opponent armed with naQ (staff) or ghIntaH (naginata), and how to fight empty-handed against a betleH-wielding adversary. By the end of your instruction, you will also be able to perform a moqbara (kata) with your weapon. The book is written in Fed-Standard (English), and contains captions and proverbs in tlhIngan-Hol, the authentic klingo-lingo. The instruction photos of the are professional quality and the Klingon costumes are quite convincing! Helpful line-diagrams show foot-positions and direction of movement. The great thing about this book is, if you have trained in Kung Fu you can actually do these exercizes. "Secret Fighting Arts of the Warrior Race" is presented seriously, even though it is intended for fandom fantasy. You won't have to search for a betleH forged in the Klingon Empire -- you can order one from the publisher of this book.


...just kidding Sensei! I'll see you tonight in class. ;)

John Boswell
01-11-2005, 11:10 AM
By the way, the Star Trek "Soke" can be found here:

http://www.startrek.com/startrek/view/series/ENT/creative/105691.html

His name is Dan Curry and is the creator of Mok'bara, the name of the "martial art" of the Klingons. He also designed and created their weapons. Dunno what he knows about true martial arts, but he's been nominated 12 times for Emmy's and has won 7 of those 12.

/shrug

Just a little F.Y.I.

Qatana
01-11-2005, 11:39 AM
Ian, whats the difference between spending your life studying the use of an out-moded, out-of-date, never used in modern combat for anything but ceremonial costumery; and spending a lifetime studying the use of an imaginary yet fully functionaly weapon that has been in the public eye for over 20 years?

Really, why do we train with swords? Spacing and distance? To fully understand the application of aiki principles? Well, maybe thats why we-as-aikidoka study One particular type of swordplay. But the majority of people who study sword arts-historic, fantastic and international, do it because they like playing with swords.

And according to the stage combat specialist in my dojo
a) Stage combat IS a martial art
b) any art form developed for and with the use of an intentionally lethal weapon (as opposed to the absolutely legitimate chair-and-coat-hanger-fu) IS a martial art. Maybe not a traditional one.

My friend the Vietnam Vet sniper-and-combat-specialist agrees.

this is their not-so-humble-opinion, i'm just the messenger.

I nevr had a problem with the word "Trekkie". I guess they felt it was a diminutive and therefore offensive. PC bull...

Jerry Miller
01-11-2005, 12:03 PM
I remember running across a copy of the Klingon bible (http://www.biblecollectors.org/klingon_bible.htm) once. Why bother with this stuff? Why not is just as reasonable of a question.

henry brown
01-11-2005, 12:04 PM
Dune is copyright 1965, and by that time It was clear that the Saudis were sitting on top of huge reserves. So, it was clearly relevant by the early 70's (remember OPEC...gas crises of 1973....). It's sad that 40 years later we haven't done anything to supplant oils as a cheap energy source

happysod
01-11-2005, 12:35 PM
And according to the stage combat specialist in my dojo
a) Stage combat IS a martial art
b) any art form developed for and with the use of an intentionally lethal weapon (as opposed to the absolutely legitimate chair-and-coat-hanger-fu) IS a martial art. Maybe not a traditional one

a) totally disagree, stage combat is a martial performance which uses base martial arts in order to provide a spectacular show - it's aim is not martial although it's moves may be based on them

b) the various weapons that history has provided have all been "field tested" to the extent that they either work or were discarded as user unfriendly. The use of improvised/makeshift weapons and training in such is not only part of many martial arts, but in my opinion a good use of resources.

However, we're not discussing a makeshift weapon or using whatever is lying around, we're talking about deliberately carrying around a fake battle weapon, created by script-writers as it looks cool, then creating a system of defense based on it despite it's lack of either historical or current use in warfare - fully functioning? How is it fully functioning? Because it has an edge? How was it designed? How much experience did the designers have in weapons combat? What field tests has it actually been in and to what level of realism?

To me, this is all akin to deciding that alien x only has one leg, but they have a really cool hand-to-hand and then starting every training session by tying one leg up and proceeding from there.

Klingon ma as a bit of fun, fine, no problems. As anything other than a cosplay fantasy, no and as being comparable to most of the existing martial arts I really say NO!

garry cantrell
01-11-2005, 12:38 PM
o.k. - i lose the "where's waldo" match. which link shows the klingon weapons? are we sure they're klingon weapons? here's why i ask -- back in the 70's a friend of mine came back from china with some very peculiar looking weapons, same being Deer Antler Knives and a Heaven and Earth Blade - i thought at the time they had a vaguely sci-fi look about them. i'm not up on chinese martial arts but apparently they are considered traditional weapons. could the weapon in question be something like that?

Qatana
01-11-2005, 12:52 PM
Deliberately carry around a fake battle weapon? Like people are walking around deliberately carrying around obsolete battle weapons? Only to weapons class, they are.

Dude you sound EXACTLY like the people who put aikido down for being a glorified dance form with falling down.

wendyrowe
01-11-2005, 02:52 PM
I've already made it clear that I love cross-training, so it should be no surprise that I don't seen anything wrong with people interested in training seriously with a made-up weapon. Everything has to start somewhere; thing is, the only way to know whether a weapon system really works is for said system to be tested in real life scenarios over decades. But whatever they train with, if people work hard with good teachers I'm sure they'll get something out of it that just might help them in their other arts/pursuits.

I nevr had a problem with the word "Trekkie". I guess they felt it was a diminutive and therefore offensive. PC bull...

Historical note: back in my days as an active member of MITSFS (MIT Science Fiction Society) in the early 80's, a "Trekkie" was someone fanatical about Star Trek while a "Trekker" was someone very interested in it but in a self-proclaimed non-fanatical way. Trekkies proclaimed themselves Trekkies and could quote entire shows, Klingon lineage, Enterprise specs etc; Trekkers enjoyed spirited discussions about Star Trek science/tech/culture/humor and knew lines from shows and various arcane details but didn't go around telling people they were Trekkies or Trekkers -- sort of like a "closet Trekkie." Trekkies were proud to be called Trekkies; Trekkers didn't want to be labelled anything; but since just about everyone I knew was one, there wasn't much need for another label.

p00kiethebear
01-11-2005, 03:37 PM
Wow!

Look very closely at the picture with the sword. Look on the wall behind him. There's a pair of Klingon Batleths hanging there.

NERD ALERT! :D :D :p :hypno:

Thomas Ambrose
01-11-2005, 03:46 PM
Oooooh... Star Trek!!! Here is my take...

Easiest first: Trekker vs Trekkie; Wendy has it totally right on the historical note. I would add that today however, it is a PC term. If anyone asks me which one I am.... Trekkie, all the way :cool:

Factual: Dan Curry does have some years of martial arts experience, though I have not been able to find specifically which ones. The Bat'leth, or in Klingon "Sword of Honor" was designed to be unique and unfamiliar. He says that he has thought of the design for a long time, but never had an excuse to make one until Star Trek. Supposedly, the Korean Martial Arts Society has given their blessing on its existance, the US Navy wanted tracings of it, and the FBI has interviewed him about how he came up with the ergonomic factors. Here is my source:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/cult/st/interviews/curry/page3.shtml
This doesn't prove anything, but at least gives some illumination to Curry's background, and some attention the bat'leth has received. I read another article about this recently, but I cannot remember the link.

Practical: Many fantasy swords or wizard swords or whatever might be very impractical at being weapons, but look cool on screen.

Sad but true: I do not own a Bat'leth, but due to my love for Star Trek, I always thought it would be a great wall hanger, maybe someday when I have a little bit of expendible money. For now, I do have (hangs head in shame) a d'k tahg which I think was officially liscensed to United Cutlery. For those of you unfamiliar with Trek-lore, a d'k tahg is a Klingon "side arm." Basically it's a 4 inch- dagger with two side guards that pop out with a button pressing. Not as impressive, but still a token of my geek-dom :) Disclaimer My d'k tahg is for collectors-display purposes only. The same goes for any bat'leth that I ever may purchase. I would NEVER try to train or fight with such a thing. If I saw one being used in a dojo, I would very frightened, and leave.

Bronson
01-11-2005, 03:58 PM
I was studying tai chi at the time Star Trek: The Next Generation was airing. In at least one episode it showed Worf going through his unarmed form. Guess what? It was tai chi. It was teeveeized and Klingonized but all the moves he was doing were recognizable to me and the other tai chi students who saw it. I've also noticed the similarity of the Klingon weapons to some of the chinese weapons...particularly the deer/elk horn knives.

During my stint in the SCA somebody had made and practiced with a Klingon Batleth that met all the saftety requirments and was allowed to use it in practice. His solo stuff was pretty interesting...too bad he got trounced whenever he faced an opponent with a more traditional style weapon. He tried it for a few sessions then dropped it by the wayside. We all gave it a spin and while it was fun to goof around with it was a slow weapon and didn't have much in the way of effective reach.

I've been told that a Trekkie is someone who follows the original Star Trek and a Trekker is someone who follows the Next Generation.

Bronson

Qatana
01-11-2005, 04:11 PM
He never got to try batleth -to-batleth? Too bad.

yeah, Klingon tai chi is most definitly tai chi.

dan guthrie
01-11-2005, 04:34 PM
By the way, the Star Trek "Soke" can be found here:

http://www.startrek.com/startrek/view/series/ENT/creative/105691.html

His name is Dan Curry and is the creator of Mok'bara, the name of the "martial art" of the Klingons. He also designed and created their weapons. Dunno what he knows about true martial arts, but he's been nominated 12 times for Emmy's and has won 7 of those 12.

/shrug

Just a little F.Y.I.

Am I too old to start Mok'bara? Will it work on the street? :D

Bronson
01-11-2005, 04:51 PM
Will it work on the street? :D

Only on the streets of Qo'noS (http://sdf.kag.org/Klingon%20Society.htm) ;)

Bronson

Qatana
01-11-2005, 05:26 PM
Or in the holodeck...

eyrie
01-11-2005, 06:12 PM
With safety protocols on....

Chris Birke
01-11-2005, 07:59 PM
Is there a spiritual belief that accompanies KMA practice?

garry cantrell
01-11-2005, 08:45 PM
not a trekkie - but i did watch several episodes over the years and i seem to recall a training exercise program on one of the later incarnations - (maybe on TNG on a holodeck? ) entitled "Aikido I" - is that right? i think with the female blond security officer?? hmmmm. maybe, maybe not. anyone remember?

wendyrowe
01-11-2005, 09:06 PM
not a trekkie - but i did watch several episodes over the years and i seem to recall a training exercise program on one of the later incarnations - (maybe on TNG on a holodeck? ) entitled "Aikido I" - is that right? i think with the female blond security officer?? hmmmm. maybe, maybe not. anyone remember?

I may not have a Trekkie's memory, but I've got the right tools:


http://www.trekweb.com/tng/crew/yar.html

Tasha Yar, Chief of Security

...Well-trained in martial arts and athletics, her favorite pastimes were aikido and Parrises squares....


And continuing along, I found



http://www.mars.dti.ne.jp/~ateban/trekjapan_e.html

To explain holodeck systems to Ligonians aboard Enterprise-D, Lieutenant Yar execute a program named "Aikido 1" (TNG No.4 "Code of Honor".) The program can make 3 enemies.

Thomas Ambrose
01-11-2005, 09:14 PM
not a trekkie - but i did watch several episodes over the years and i seem to recall a training exercise program on one of the later incarnations - (maybe on TNG on a holodeck? ) entitled "Aikido I" - is that right? i think with the female blond security officer?? hmmmm. maybe, maybe not. anyone remember?

....sigh... I thought my dork years were behind me :sorry:... ok, here it goes...

Star Trek The Next Generation Episode 4 "Code of Honor" LT Natasha Yar uses a holodeck program called "Aikido I" to demonstrate the technology to a couple of visiting aliens. I looked up the episode number, but I do remember seeing it.

here is a photo from that episode...
http://www.startrek.com/imageuploads/200303/tng-104-tasha-yar-practices-fo/320x240.jpg courtesy of www.startrek.com

I will quietly go back to pretending once again... that I am not a nerd! :rolleyes:

EDIT: Wendy, you just beat me to the post while I was still forming mine! :)

wendyrowe
01-11-2005, 10:20 PM
I will quietly go back to pretending once again... that I am not a nerd!
I won't even bother pretending; I'm a nerd and proud of it! All I need now is a NERD PRIDE T-shirt. Or, judging from this thread's popularity, maybe we need an AIKIDO NERD shirt. Move over, Shodothug, here we come!

Jerry Miller
01-11-2005, 11:04 PM
Aiki-nerd, how cool is that?

Qatana
01-11-2005, 11:22 PM
All of us are aiki-nerds.

The thing about the "Code of Honor" episode is that while i've only seen it once since I started training, it didn't much look like aikido to me.

Bronson
01-12-2005, 01:19 AM
The wardrobe people also dressed her with the right side of the gi on top. Maybe this was foreshadowing that she would eventually die in the series :rolleyes:

Bronson

happysod
01-12-2005, 03:03 AM
Dude you sound EXACTLY like the people who put aikido down for being a glorified dance form with falling down Dudess, if aikido was based on a japanese soap opera without any foundation in traditional skills and with no link to the plethora of skilled, cross trained martial artists who were involved in it's inception, I'd be happily cheering them on.

I find the whole concept of "but it's been on tv for such a long time and look, there's some people who have done proper martial arts doing it now" as a reason for granting it any sort of respectability as a martial art extremely amusing. I must go and buy the cardassian ninja techniques book to complete the set.

Chuck.Gordon
01-12-2005, 05:25 AM
Stage combat: I hesitate to call stage combatives or theatrical combatives martial art, but that's a semantic quibble, really. I know 'serious' martial arts folks who take such things very seriously, but don't confuse the two either.

Fantasy MA: Dunno, if I wanted to study some real kick-butt fantasy MA, I'd look up the folks who developed the fighting styles for Peter jackson's LoTR trilogy. Loved the elven 'nagimaki' thingies.

Why do 'real' MA: The history, the connection with the culture, the philosophical and spiritual aspects, the neat uniforms.

I'm kind of a budo snob. I don't call anything not directly based on Japanese systems 'budo' ... to include some Okinawan systems. I'm also fond of Draeger's idea that 'martial' arts are those that are or were practiced by or based upon the fighting systems of the warrior class (thus the martial). Anything else is a civil combative art or a combative sport.

In that light, I wouldn't lump stage combatives in with martial arts, but would say, perhaps, depending on the stage art, the choreographer's experience and intent, that the stage arts are related to, derived from or otherwise influenced by martial arts, but wouldn't call them martial arts.

Likewise, for instance, kenbu, trad. japanese sword dancing. It uses a sword, and contains elements of budo technical movement, application and theory, but it is dance, and not reflective of a combative tradition as such.

As for aikido, some of aikido is very martial, and some are, um, dancing with falling down at the end. Same can be said of other budo as well, though. I think intent and the intensity are key to making those distinctions, and even then, it's a real grey area.

YMMV.

Chuck

Qatana
01-12-2005, 10:56 AM
So Chuck, are you saying you don't consider any non-Japanese fighting style a "martial art"?

Anyway, I never called Klingon fighting a "martial art" either. Just a "viable" one. Even if its just choreography, thats an Art in itself.

Anyone see the League of Extraordinary Gentlemen? What exactly was the Captain Nemo character doing? I'd like an art that has throws, kicks AND swords all at the same time!

kironin
01-12-2005, 11:02 AM
All of us are aiki-nerds.
The thing about the "Code of Honor" episode is that while i've only seen it once since I started training, it didn't much look like aikido to me.

ah, but it's what aikido turned into in the 24th century because all the aiki-nerds were focused on fantasy weapons and stage combat. The succeeding generations were confused by statements that it's all martial arts. Thus the Soke Council was able to increase their market share such that by the 23rd century, a few key individuals including a famous admiral who had a fondness for open hand strikes and low kicks was able to insitute what you saw as the official Star Fleet aikido training program.

:crazy:

SmilingNage
01-12-2005, 11:08 AM
Its gettn kinda of geeky in here. Almost like a "convention" like atmosphere. Fist one that shows up wearing vulcan ears and I am out of here.

Stage combat is really designed for camera angle. To make strikes appear that they connect but are hidden in the camera blind spot. In college, myself and the drama teacher would routinely stage an arguement that would lead into a "fight" in the hallways. Shocking all the freshman and some facualty as well. But it was all in good jest, but fake none the less.

kung fu hamster
01-12-2005, 11:18 AM
How about if you get a group of Japanese martial artists to adopt the batleth, maybe put chains on it or something (like the chain and sickle?) and incorporate it into their dojo training regimen... Techniques and philosophy can evolve and be field tested over the years. Then by the time the 23rd century rolls around, it could be considered a genuine Japanese martial art with a genuine centuries old authentic lineage, sokes and everything, and Jo can have the last laugh. (hey, I'm a closet Trekkie too).

:)

Qatana
01-12-2005, 11:42 AM
But *I* don't want it to be a Japanese martial art! Just because Klingon ethics are loosely based on Japanese (LOOSELY) don't mean it has to go to Japan. But then again, i spend about 1/4 of the year living in the 16th century, six weeks in Victorian London, and three nights a week playing samurai.

John Boswell
01-12-2005, 12:14 PM
Wouldn't the Klingon Empire be more closely associated with the Monguls? You know, Ghengis Khan and stuff? That way, we can still consider it an asian martial art, but not japanese... more like mongolian or himilayan or something.

"From the lost and forgotten lands of inner Mongolia come the ancient teachings of the warlords of old. The ancient texts of Grandmaster Khan bring forth the extraordinary martial art of Mok'bara. Weapons of old will clash with the 21st century as the legend of Ghengis Khan is reborn in the secret teachings of the BatleH as well as many other weapons never known before now!

Send $19.95 to:
Mok'bara: Legends of Ghengis Khan and the BatleH
c/o John Boswell
12345 Showmedamoney
Midland, Tx. 79701
Limited time offer. Act now while supplies last! :D :D :D

Chuck.Gordon
01-12-2005, 12:17 PM
So Chuck, are you saying you don't consider any non-Japanese fighting style a "martial art"?!

Nope. I'm saying I don't think non-Japanese martial arts are 'budo' and that non-military-connected fighting systems aren't 'martial'. As I said, it' semantix.

Anyway, I never called Klingon fighting a "martial art" either. Just a "viable" one. Even if its just choreography, thats an Art in itself.

The 'art' I cannot disagree with ...

What exactly was the Captain Nemo character doing? I'd like an art that has throws, kicks AND swords all at the same time!

No clue, but there are extant sogo budo that include multiple facets of personal combat, based on internally consistent core principles and methodologies of movement (I practice one).

I can think of a good handful, in fact, but then, they aren't necessarily available generally, either. Most of the older ryuha, in fact, at one time or another have included multiple combative aspects. The speciaization of 'kenjutsu' or 'jujutsu' was a relatively modern thing (Meiji-ish) for the most part.

Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu, Kashima Shinryu, Takeuchi Ryu, Tennin Rishin Ryu, Kiraku Ryu all come to mind as systems that have preserved all or part of the sogo bujutsu aspect.

There are, however, a LOT of folks who will cobble together some karate, judo, aikido, kendo, iaido, kitchen sink and whipped cream on top and happily sell it to you ... and some of those folks are probably pretty good fighters. That doesn't make it proper, authentic, viable or particularly martial. It makes a mishmash, usually not internally consistent, quite often, put together by folks who might be qualified in one art or another, but not in all the things they claim to be teaching.

That aside ... as for the Klingon stage-combat, if someone wanted to practice it, that's their thing and I've no beef with it, but would be hesitant to say they were studying anything OTHER than a particular instance of stage combat -- not martial art.

Hey, if it makes 'em happy, they benefit from it, no one gets hurt, and no one gets lied to, then it's a case of whatever floats your boat.

Chuck

deepsoup
01-12-2005, 08:41 PM
Wouldn't the Klingon Empire be more closely associated with the Monguls? You know, Ghengis Khan and stuff? That way, we can still consider it an asian martial art, but not japanese... more like mongolian or himilayan or something.

Douglas Adams wrote that "the casual observer would not notice anything unusual about Ghengis Khan"[1].

Sean
x

[1] Because the casual observer would be dead.

PeterR
01-12-2005, 09:01 PM
So you really like Star Trek and especially Klingons. You learn to speak an invented language, learn the invented customs, and practice an invented martial art. And the best part - you have fun doing it.

You probably don't take it nearly as seriously as some people think you do and so what if you do.

Not really that much different from the Society for Creative Anachronism or from Aikido. Our techniques might have an actual history but we are assuming a role.

More power to them.

wendyrowe
01-12-2005, 09:27 PM
...Not really that much different from the Society for Creative Anachronism or from Aikido. Our techniques might have an actual history but we are assuming a role....

Now that the SCA has gotten two mentions in this thread, it's started me wondering: how many of us have been involved with the SCA? It and Aikido may have more in common than just roleplaying.

I still have my common and fancy garb, but they're packed away while my gi's are front and center.

Getting back to the main issue, working with Klingon weapons can't be much stranger or less realistic than using a Cyclone Circular Knife or throwing stars, and might be more useful.

PeterR
01-12-2005, 09:32 PM
Getting back to the main issue, working with Klingon weapons can't be much stranger or less realistic than using a Cyclone Circular Knife or throwing stars, and might be more useful.
Can it be used as a beer opener.

mikeg
01-12-2005, 11:14 PM
For what it's worth, Dan Curry (http://www.startrek.com/startrek/view/community/chat/archive/transcript/1394.html;jsessionid=0FB182D7AE93F1DC594A117CC35410B2), who invented the bat'leth, has a black belt in tae kwon do (http://www.klingon.org/iboard/index.php?act=ST&f=44&t=34&) and based the bat'leth on the Chinese fighting crescent (http://www.uss-voyager.fsnet.co.uk/batleth.htm). He says that the Korean Martial Arts Association has recognized it as the first new bladed weapon (http://saveenterprise.com/forum2/index.php?act=Print&client=printer&f=60&t=1579) approved for study in several hundred years.

No, I'm not a hard-core Trekkie, but I was so amused by the idea of a Klingon martial art that I had to look it up. :D

Qatana
01-13-2005, 01:29 AM
I never did SCA but I do a lot of Renaissance Faires and the Dickens Xmas Fair- most of us don't take our characters *quite* as seriously as many SCAers, but "normal" people laugh at us for being Different, anyway.
I'm finding that many other interesting interests have a large MA crossover.

Never thought of Klingons as Korean...nor Mongolian. Klingons are all about Honor, they wouldn't rampage across the Steppes simply for the sake of conquest. Well. maybe the 60s ones might, way back before we knew what they were Really like.

Kevin Masters
01-14-2005, 08:26 AM
"Is there a word in Klingon for loneliness? Ah, yes. Garrll dall!"
-Comic Bookstore Guy

Where does the lightsaber kumitatchi thread begin??

John Boswell
01-14-2005, 11:08 AM
On the "Humor Forum." :D

frivolouspig
01-16-2005, 05:23 PM
Dan Curry (the guy who designed the weapon and art commented about it in an interview for newtek.com
[ http://www.newtek.com/products/lightwave/profiles/DanCurry ]



NewTek.com: You have done a lot of weapons design, correct?
Dan Curry: Yes, that is correct. I spent a lot of time living in Asia, and during my misspent youth I devoted a lot of time studying martial arts. When Next Generation had an episode on Klingons where Worf was to inherit this weapon, I didnít like the idea of giving him a pirate's cutlass, or something that looked like it came out of medieval Normandy. I had been imagining this kind of curved weapon, somewhat of a cross between Himalayan weapons and something from Northern China. So I combined them with kind of a fluid fighting style, inspired by Tai Chi, this is where the Bat'leth came from.

Michael Dorn, a director on the series and the actor who played Worf, called me and said he needed a new weapon, he came over and I showed him some of my old swords. We then decided to use a cavalry weapon, so that Worf would be able to have a smaller weapon to hide behind his back.

Qatana
03-21-2006, 02:56 PM
Ok I just *had* to resurrect this thread. The other day I was watching "Shanghai Noon" and in the barrom brawl Jackie Chan pulls a pair of moose antlers off the wall and performs some absolutely Classic Batleth-Fu.
Just sayin....
Not budo, no, but Classic! But I never said Klingon MAs were budo, either....

Ron Tisdale
03-21-2006, 03:01 PM
But I never said Klingon MAs were budo, either....

Not do, Jutsu!

B,
R (I know, I know, false catagorization [is that a word??])

Dajo251
03-21-2006, 03:06 PM
I dont know if anyone mentioned this(seeing as I dont feel like reading through the whole thread), but I was reading in some magazine, that the Batlith is actually excepted as weapon with full katas and the like by the korean federation of MArtial arts, the guy who created the weapon as well as the movments based around it is an accomplished martial artist, damn if only I could find that article

Chuck.Gordon
03-23-2006, 09:52 AM
Hey, have you seen some of the 'weapons' the musical kata folks are using? The Batlith thingie fits right in ...