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David Yap
01-04-2005, 05:42 AM
Here is an article regarding George Dillman's system of pressure points techniques.

Anyone care to comment. Is there an aikido related system that emphasize on pressure points?

You may have to download and save the file in Word to read it better.

Regards

David Y

Chuck.Gordon
01-04-2005, 07:22 AM
PP theory is highly controversial. And this topis was beaten to death here on Aikiweb a couple of years ago, so I'd refer you to the archives to look up what has been discussed before.

My experience with it is that, yes, some PP techniques work, on some people, some of the time. They do not all work on everyone, all the time,

PP study is included in most traditional budo, to some extent. However, it is not the be-all and end-all of technical knowledge, it is, rather, only one small part of the knowledge set associated with Japanese budo (that is, most budo systems teach a certain amount of kyusho awareness and manipulation). Kyushojutsu, in the older systems, was a subset of knowledge, theory and technique that was akin to kiaijutsu -- not esentially core info, but interesting and good to know.

Do you need PP-intensive study to do good aikido? No. There's plenty of info contained in aikido itself to keep you busy a good long time.

Would an adjunctive study of PP theory enhance your aikido? Maybe. Maybe not. IMHO, mixing the Ryukyu Kempo (Oyata line) or PPKO (DIllman et al) theory and techniques with good aikido is sort of like the old saying about apples and oranges, and I have yet (in 30+ years of budo study) to run aross any PP-specific instruction that I would waste my time on.

If you're interested in the use of kyusho in traditional budo, and if you can get your hands on an old-style trad. judoka, a good jodoka or trad. Okiniawan style karateka, you might be able to learn something useful about kyusho ...

But that's just my opinion. YMMV.

Chuck

David Yap
01-04-2005, 10:26 PM
PP theory is highly controversial. And this topis was beaten to death here on Aikiweb a couple of years ago, so I'd refer you to the archives to look up what has been discussed before.

Thanks, Chuck, for pointing out the archives to me. Gone through them but don't think the topic was beaten to death as you put it.

My experience with it is that, yes, some PP techniques work, on some people, some of the time. They do not all work on everyone, all the time

Agreed. It seldom works on women, young adolescence and definitely not on people high on drugs (including those high on adrenaline). As for a knockout, no one is going to stand still and be knocked/striked at 3 spots consecutively. Learning the set up as in aikido is more critical.

PP study is included in most traditional budo, to some extent. However, it is not the be-all and end-all of technical knowledge, it is, rather, only one small part of the knowledge set associated with Japanese budo (that is, most budo systems teach a certain amount of kyusho awareness and manipulation). Kyushojutsu, in the older systems, was a subset of knowledge, theory and technique that was akin to kiaijutsu -- not esentially core info, but interesting and good to know.

Agreed, especially the "interesting and good to know" part.

Do you need PP-intensive study to do good aikido? No. There's plenty of info contained in aikido itself to keep you busy a good long time.

Yes, we do not need to be PP intensive to do good aikido. I'm just wondering whether it would be appreciate to apply PP to smart-ass uke - those who have preemption of the technique, grip with "unbendable" arm and keeping distance with the nage to avoid kuzushi - those with the "unbreakable ego".

Would an adjunctive study of PP theory enhance your aikido? Maybe. Maybe not. IMHO, mixing the Ryukyu Kempo (Oyata line) or PPKO (DIllman et al) theory and techniques with good aikido is sort of like the old saying about apples and oranges, and I have yet (in 30+ years of budo study) to run aross any PP-specific instruction that I would waste my time on.

You mentioned Seiyu Oyata and Dillman - either you have received instructions from either these gentlemen or did some research into their work. I understand from Willy Lim (himself an ex-PP student of Dillman) that Dillman actually learned from Oyata the PP even though ole George himself never admit or discuss it. Willy and others later studied with Oyata and found that Oyata's techniques were more subtle (less or no pain but just or more effective) compared to the forceful strikes of Dillman.

If you're interested in the use of kyusho in traditional budo, and if you can get your hands on an old-style trad. judoka, a good jodoka or trad. Okiniawan style karateka, you might be able to learn something useful about kyusho ...

Thanks for the advice. I did a 4 years study of PPKO with one of Dillman's pioneer students. I was hoping to get an insight of Oyata's soft touch from aikido. It is quite expensive to get Rick Clark or Willy Lim to conduct such seminars in my country; then again, if they do come this way, people may not be interested. I have discussed pressure points with some taichi teachers who are also acupuncturists and Chinese medical practitioners. In their opinion, such PP techniques should least be taught to the public as they do more harm than good. Besides knowing the damaging points, the executioner of these techniques must know the healing points to restore/normalise the flow of "ki" or "chi" in the victim's body.

David Y

David Yap
01-05-2005, 01:37 AM
Chuck,

One thing I omitted to say:

Quoting Willy Lim sifu, "only if you can find a spot where it doesn’t hurt when the bee sting, then we talk about pressure point".

It is not that Willy Lim sifu does not believe in pressure points. He said that if we were to break our technique into parts as in an alphabetic order (a, b, c....), he would place PP at the letter "z".

Kind regards

David Y

PS. The Bruce Baker's thread on PP was hilarious but interesting.

Alvin H. Nagasawa
01-05-2005, 09:15 PM
Re:Pressure Point Techniques

I have learned shiatsu, and in Aikido Kiatsu. I learned it from my late teacher.
There are pressure points on the human body that cause pain to the individual, But also to promote circulation.

I would like to hear more about Mr. George Dillman and his use in MA. I read the attachment, But wish to find out more about this person and this form of MA.

Bronson
01-05-2005, 11:26 PM
Well you can start with the GOOGLE RESULTS (http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rls=GGLD,GGLD:2004-32,GGLD:en&q=George+Dillman) for George Dillman....only about 74,200 results :freaky:

Bronson

Alvin H. Nagasawa
01-05-2005, 11:49 PM
Bronson,

Thanks for the Goggle Search Results. 74,200 results most impressive. One did make a name for himself.

David Yap
01-06-2005, 12:24 AM
...I would like to hear more about Mr. George Dillman and his use in MA. I read the attachment, But wish to find out more about this person and this form of MA.

Alvin,

The information is readily available on the Net. You can use any of the search engines.

The first person to demonstrate PP techniques (in the States) was Seiyu Oyata. I was told that George Dillman actually pick up the techniques from him and not from Hohan Soken. Why would Hohan shihan pass these techniques exclusively to George Dillman when there are many other worthy MA people in Okinawa and mainland Japan? Hohan shihan is no longer available to confirm it - not for a long long time anyway. PP techniques were taught discretely and selectively (similar to Daito-ryu a hundred or more years ago). George Dillman publicized it and a lot of other MA instructors jumped on the bandwagon.

Like Chuck Gordon has written, " Kyushu-jutsu is not a core subject in any given MA, it is an additional knowledge/technique that is interesting and good to know". Striking at pressure points is not as easy as 1,2,3 - practically no one will stand still waiting to be striked. One has to set up the opportunity or create the opening, hence, kuzushi is the key ingredient in PP techniques. At the moment when the uke is off-balanced, that is the moment to strike. In percussion arts (kicks, blocks & blows), the set up and applications are all "encrypted" in the kata. Due to induction of tote, jujitsu and kenjutsu into the public schools/education system, karate (modern/sports tote), judo (modern/sports jujitsu) and kendo (modern/sports kenjutsu) were watered down (either by introduction of rules and change and reduction of techniques and interpretations - open hands changed to fists, jodan changed to chudan, kicking below the waist to kicking above the waist, etc.) to avoid critical injuries among school children - but even these did not stopped some fatalities in MA trainings happening in schools and universities (aikido practice included). The reason why Dillman's techniques sell so well is not so much above describing where and what the PP is about but rather the decoding of the techniques and applications of SD from the kata (passed down to us from the forefathers of MA) to set up PP strikes. In a way, taking up aikido rekindled my interest in karate when I suddenly realized that I was actually doing my karate kata in aikido. Some of PP are not about pain, these points when striked lightly or pressed can create muscle(s) spasm(s) in the body similar to the knee-jerk reaction used in medical checkups. Knowing about such points can improve our techniques of kuzushi (to manipulate the uke into the position we intended) - minimal effort, maximum effort. Example, going for the triple warmer point in ikkyo most times make a different and some of us don't realize that we are already doing that. The question of whether we need to know is another topic by itself and that has been covered well 2 years ago on this website, thanks to Chuck's referral.

Other MA personalities who "specialized" on PP that you can research on are:

Patrick McCarthy
Rick Clark
Vince Morris

There are also books on Shaolin Chin-na style written by Dr. Hwang that described pressure points and their effects. Then again, PP is not a core subject of Shaolin Chin-na.

Regards

David Y

JPatton
01-07-2005, 10:34 PM
Well, this discussion comes up on every forum and since I am a member of the organization I guess I should spread the knowledge. www.kyusho.com This place has a wealth of knowledge on the PP subject, look to the forums.

Alvin H. Nagasawa
01-08-2005, 12:19 AM
Well from what I have read over the Internet sites.
It seems that one has a loaded gun and I hope it doesn't go off. And disgrace the MA world for the fore Fathers that introduced this form of PP techniques.

Of course this is my personal opinion. Compassion and discretion on the part of everyone involved training this form of PP technique. Should understand the consequences of there actions. It is a supplement to the trained individual that have control of themselves and respect for there fellow man.

eyrie
01-08-2005, 05:14 AM
Depending on who you talk to, atemi-waza is vital point striking. And again, depending on who you talk to, atemi-waza may or may not be emphasized in you aikido dojo. It's handy stuff to know, if you can get it to work in a "real" situation.

I have had the pleasure of attending a few of Rick Clark's seminars when he was down in Oz, and yes, they do work, but not on everyone all of the time. In most cases, we're talking about hitting an area the size of a quarter (10 cent piece if you're Aussie). Try hitting that as a moving target!

For stationary, uncooperative ukes it's useful to know what points to tag to setup techniques, or just get them to move/relax. But that just wouldn't be (pure) aikido... more like jujitsu.

JPatton
01-08-2005, 10:18 AM
Those quarter size points are everywhere, over 300 I believe. And besides, even if you hit the point, but it doesnt do anything, it's still a hit.

eyrie
01-10-2005, 11:21 PM
Those quarter size points are everywhere, over 300 I believe. And besides, even if you hit the point, but it doesnt do anything, it's still a hit.

Maybe that's why it's so controversial. IMHO, in a self-defense situation, if you don't get an instant reaction, you'll wanna really know your stuff and how to put the sucker down real quick.

JPatton
01-12-2005, 10:05 PM
i trained with pp's in shorin ryu exclusively for nearly two years. like any other martial are they just take time. i find it easy to get a reaction.

David Yap
01-13-2005, 03:41 AM
Those quarter size points are everywhere, over 300 I believe. And besides, even if you hit the point, but it doesnt do anything, it's still a hit.

i trained with pp's in shorin ryu exclusively for nearly two years. like any other martial are they just take time. i find it easy to get a reaction.

Hi Jaime and all,

PP techniques is not specifically about hitting the points; as a golfer would say, "It is not how you drive but it is about how you arrive". Quoting Gichin Funakoshi and I believe O Sensei was of the same view, "One must not search for a technique; create a void and one will find the technique".

In my 4 years of doing & teaching PP, the interesting part of the training was on learning the setups, not so much on the reactions (it was at the beginning). The void part is important and enjoyable in ones training, for a split second, the attacker did not know what was coming and the target(s) intended.

So if you have used Shorin-ryu kata as a base, your experience will not be much different from mine. We mainly use Kanku-dai and Tekki as the source.

Regards

David

PS You just need to know about 36 points.

JPatton
01-13-2005, 03:41 PM
Hey David-

Yes, I trained mainly in Naihanchi katas, there is a wealth of knowledge in those. Also, I used Passai. It's amazing you applications and set ups are in all kata. :)