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Kami
04-08-2001, 08:27 AM
Hello, practitioners of Ki-Aikido!

Why, in Ki-Aikido, the techniques are almost always performed with small "jumps"? What's its justification?

Best regards
Kami

tedehara
04-08-2001, 01:46 PM
Kami wrote:
Hello, practitioners of Ki-Aikido!

Why, in Ki-Aikido, the techniques are almost always performed with small "jumps"? What's its justification?

Best regards
Kami

Among basketball players there are many who "Want to be like Mike (Michael Jordan, former guard - Chicago Bulls)." In the Ki-Society there are many who "Want to be like Tohei (Koichi Tohei, 10th dan - founder Ki Society)."

If you've seen some older film footage of K. Tohei, you'll notice he hops or skips around a lot, while doing technique. Now he's in his 80's and doesn't do that much hopping. However, he's still doing aikido. There are also several Ki Society exercises to help develop your hopping abilities.

From a practical side, skipping back helps especially when uke comes in strong from the front. By giving yourself more distance (ma-ai), your timing improves while your foot position remains the same. If you just step backwards, you'll end up receiving uke's power and your timing will usually be too late.

Another type of jumping that you might see is the simple down-up-down rhythm of a technique. Because Ki-Aikido is a more circular style, they tend to emphasize the motion more, at least in the lower ranks.

That's my alibi and I'm sticking to it.

Kami
04-08-2001, 02:58 PM
tedehara wrote:
"Want to be like Tohei (Koichi Tohei, 10th dan - founder Ki Society)."[/i]
There are also several Ki Society exercises to help develop your hopping abilities.
That's my alibi and I'm sticking to it.

KAMI : Thank you, Ted! So those are your points...I presume you're a "jumper"(Ki-Aikidoka)?
Anybody else?

davoravo
04-21-2001, 08:03 AM
Dear Ubaldo
I have been trying to reply to your thread on this topic on e-budo but for some reason could not.

I think the point raised there that little hops give extra power is correct - particularly in Tenchi Nage where the hop allows your centre to drive a very relaxed "heaven" hand.

In addition it changes the timing of the technique. For example, Tenchi Nage again, the heaven hand rises in an ONE AND TWO timing instead of ONE TWO.

Thirdly a little jump allows rapid changes in direction with very fast movement, for example when you want to switch and raise uke's centre in a high speed Irimi Nage (Tenkan Tenkan Tenkan ...).

This is what it feels like to me. I have never had an "official" explanantion and don't train at that dojo anymore. Maybe Tohei just liked it?

MikeE
04-21-2001, 03:05 PM
I was told by a former student of Tohei Sensei that the hopping was because Tohei Sensei needed to do it to effect proper waza on taller ukes. And that it was just incorporated into Ki Society techniques from instructors watching Tohei Sensei doing it.

Just what I heard, it could be wrong.

tedehara
04-21-2001, 03:15 PM
Originally posted by davoravo
... Maybe Tohei just liked it?

During the long weekend that this forum was down, this topic was also introduced on several other forums (http://204.95.207.136/vbulletin/showthread.php?threadid=5503). One poster indicated that Koichi Tohei skipped about, just like O Sensei did and as Shioda Sensei did also ( see postings by Arashi (http://www.aikidojournal.com/ubb/Forum9/HTML/000439.html)).

This fact brought about the inevitable questions, "If O Sensei, Shioda and Koichi were moving like this, why didn't the other instructors do this? Especially since many in Aikikai profess to be doing O Sensei's Aikido."

ian
04-26-2001, 08:53 AM
I like the sound of this thread - I was once repremanded for hopping about too much, but I find it comes quite naturally to me cos I'm small, light and fast.

I'd heard that Ueshiba had said 'the mind of man is in the hands and the movement of the universe is in the feet', by which I have been lead to think means that it is your feet/body movement that does the aikido, not pretty hand techniques.

If someone hops, does that mean they are not dropping their centre sufficiently? Is there a conflict between these?

Ian

Jimro
04-26-2001, 12:36 PM
Hmmm...this is an interesting subject.

I have had the pleasure of sparring with black belts of different styles. My last instructor told me about an aikido demostration that he witnessed. The instructor kneeled down and had his senior students attack him. When he couldn't avoid a punch or kick then he redirected it and never counterattacked. Not much hopping going on there.

Notice how often young color belts of most martial arts do a lot of hopping. It is a natural way to add power to a punch, or kick, and quickly retreat. But also notice that most senior students and teachers, don't hop as a rule, but reserve it for when it will be most effective.

I think that as one progresses in their art that they will naturally choose to limit their hops to when they are useful. A hop isn't necessary for someone who controls a fight. There would be no reason to jump out of the way or try to suddenly exploit an opening. So the master in control of the fight would have the other person hopping to get out of the way and hopping to try to exploit a feigned weakness.

So if you hop don't worry about it. Hopping is a tool just like punches and kicks. The better you get the fewer of any one tool you'll use so have fun and keep practicing.

James

You are,
what you do,
when it counts

tedehara
04-26-2001, 05:49 PM
Originally posted by ian
...If someone hops, does that mean they are not dropping their centre sufficiently? Is there a conflict between these?

Ian

If you're centered while moving, there should be no trouble. You would not only keep your balance, but also move faster because you're relaxed.

Several things to note:
This is more like skipping than hopping or jumping. Hopping or jumping implies a large vertical motion. The aikidoist is actually skipping, usually with their feet very close to the ground and doing this in order to cover a large horizontal area.

Chocolateuke
04-26-2001, 09:40 PM
but then wouldn't you be off balence a lot?? I mean in Yosihinkan we try to keep your center down and out ( kind of spreading) but if you hop it seems it would have your center up and around. I am sure great teachers Like Tochi is good at it would some really good Aikidoka just enter and push if they had the timing??

Jimro
04-27-2001, 08:23 AM
I think that we could use some clarification between hopping and lunging.

Lunging is a quick movement where one foot comes off the surface and the trail foot drags or only leaves the surface at the very end of the lunge to be brought back into the stance.

Hopping is a quick movement where both feet leave the surface at or near the same time and return to the surface at or near the same time.

As for the center of gravity, I find that lunging lowers my center of gravity while hopping doesn't help it at all. I still feel that there is a time and place for both. Maybe not for every martial artist, but it's art not science right? If everyone had the exact same repetiore we would be robots, not artists.


James

You are,
what you do,
when it counts.

tedehara
04-27-2001, 12:55 PM
Originally posted by Chocolateuke
but then wouldn't you be off balence a lot?? I mean in Yosihinkan we try to keep your center down and out ( kind of spreading) but if you hop it seems it would have your center up and around. I am sure great teachers Like Tochi is good at it would some really good Aikidoka just enter and push if they had the timing??

Like James mentioned, this is more a lunge (or skip) than a hop (or jump).

I know many styles use a physical approach to dealing with centering oneself. However, the Ki Society takes a more mental or psychological approach. If you look at K. Tohei's Four Basic Principles (http://unofficial.ki-society.org/Four.html) the first and last principles are mental (directed by the mind) and the second and third are physical (rules of the body).

In computerese, these basic principles are a transaction. If you get one principle, you have all of them. If you miss one principle, you don't have any of them. Therefore if you practice one mental principle, you're also practicing the rest.

Probably your best way to appreciate this is to see K. Tohei or some top Ki Society instructor demo live or on tape and see how they move.

I know this sounds confusing :confused:, so I'll be quiet now.