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Fred26
01-02-2005, 03:54 AM
Hello. I started with Ki Aikido in sept. 2004 and I've been eyeballing my local clubs Jodo&Iaido section as a means to crosstrain starting in Feb 2005. The problem is that I will begin my AIkido weapons training at the same time.

Had I been a comfortable Aikidoka with several years of experience it might not have been a major issue, but since I'm a newbie at both martial arts, it can perhaps be a problem.

I know for a fact that should I decide to begin with a offensive art such as Karate then there would be less problems, if any at all, since aikido is purely defensive and karate mostly offensive. (one of my instructors is rated in both aikido and karate by the way)

Since Jodo also use bokken and Jo with their own techniques, I've been a bit worried of the potential "damage" it can do on my AIkido jo/bokken techniques. The possibility exists that I might hamper my progress in both Aikido and Jodo if I use the same weapon but learning two basic set of techniques at the same time. None of my comrades in Aikido trains Jodo as far as I know, although my head instructor will also begin Jodo this Feb too.

So, has anyone any kind of advice, warnings, tips about my situation? Maybe there is some "simple" method of keeping the two sides seperate?

I'd apreciate any help.

siwilson
01-02-2005, 04:53 AM
You are new to Aikido, but just to say that Aikido is not onlly defensive, but also offensive, with attack from Sh'te/Tori/Nage against Uke (at least we all agree on that term)!

Also, Jodo does include Jo and Bokken, but with Tori (I hope that is still the true term for all) using the Jo to defeat Uke, who is armed with the Bokken.

Someone will probably tell me now that their school practice the opposite as well, but that will not be the way of the Jo! :p

Don't keep them seperate, you have to find a way so that they compliment eachother. As my late teacher (Sensei Ted Stratton) said, "You can't climb 2 mountains at the same time!"

At the Shudokan Hombu dojo in Seremban, the late Sensei Don Draeger used to teach Jodo to the Aikido students there (who practiced Yoshinkan Aikido).

If you approach your Aikido and Jodo training from the same perspective, you will have no problems. I approach Jo and Bokken training from the same Kamae as I have in Aikido - 60% on the from foot, 40% on the back, centre above the front heal, heals in line, hips square, hands in centre. Same with striking arts.

That is the basic and basis of training, then you also have variation, but that is not the way to learn the art. If you approach both from the same perspective you will improve and build your base in both arts. If you try and keep them seperate and you will only be as good as whichever one you are weakest in.

Give it a go and treat it as Aikido.

Good luck!

Fred26
01-02-2005, 05:10 AM
Yoshinkan Aikido? Groovey. Ever since I started studying the history of Aikido I've wanted to see Yoshinkan, (and lots of other styles too), in "action". Unfortunetly we dont have any Yoshinkan Dojo at all in Sweden as far as I know. Even if we had it would prolly not be located in my city. Seeing it on a movie clip is just not the same thing.

Anyways, regarding the purely defensive versus offensive part. Of course we have the attacks, but in my club at least we only use them for practice, we dont use it in real life as you would do with karate. Isnt it called atemi by the way? (i'm still trying to learn all the japanese names for the techniques and such) :p

Regarding yer general advice...it sounds reasonable. Perhaps it will be more clear once I start with the actual basic techniques in Jodo.

Thanks dude.

David Humm
01-02-2005, 05:27 AM
..So, has anyone any kind of advice, warnings, tips about my situation? Maybe there is some "simple" method of keeping the two sides seperate?

I'd apreciate any help.

Hi Fredrik,

Remembering that Aiki-ken and jo are essentially teachers of aiki principles, used to install important aspects of our aikido. The physical use of the bokken and jo in aikido aren't specifically designed to teach you to the use them as weapons in their own right however, Iai and Jodo on the other hand do just that, teach you how to use those items as traditional weapons.

I study Iaido and have never found a conflict between that and my study of Aikido (quite the opposite actually) The same will be for Jodo. As Si stated, approach your training with the same attitude and Iai/Jodo will greatly compliment your combined study but, if you approach them differently attempting to bring specific aspects of Aiki-jo in to your Jodo class and visa-versa you may suffer problems.

Keep your mind open to each Sensei's teaching and absorb. You yourself will naturally combine your understanding as time progresses.

Enjoy !

Regards

seank
01-02-2005, 06:09 AM
"You can't climb 2 mountains at the same time!"


I had almost the same conversation with Sugano Shihan midway through last year. At the time I was looking at Iaido as a complementary practice, but was very gently told it is difficult to master two things at once.

Personally I've decided to put the Iaido side of things on hold for the moment to concentrate on my Aikido (I am only 4th kyu, so the path ahead is there (is that a very Zen approach?)).

I have family who practice both Aikido and Kendo, and I have practiced other weapons in various styles of Karate over the years, and in my (probably limited) experience I've found it an interesting challenge to try and maintain two lots of techniques and training simultaneously.

At the same time, I am a firm believer in the premise that you won't know if you don't try... you may find the Jodo practice helps a lot with your Aikido :)

Best of luck anyway...

Charles Hill
01-02-2005, 07:36 AM
Hi Fredrik,

I would be cautious about doing two arts at the same time. There are significant yet subtle differences between Jodo and Aikido. One is the stance which is completely different. And contrary to what Si wrote, I think that if you do one art's stance in the other art's class , your teacher would be justifiably unhappy. The best situation would be to do both with the same teacher, who would hopefully be aware of potential pitfalls and would guide you carefully.

Charles

SeiserL
01-02-2005, 09:08 AM
IMHO, a fan of cross training, just keep the two separate in training and practice. Let them integrate on their own later. Enjoy.

siwilson
01-02-2005, 09:47 AM
And contrary to what Si wrote, I think that if you do one art's stance in the other art's class , your teacher would be justifiably unhappy.

Which of course I was not advising. Simply that once you have a core in your nartial arts, then that is when you should center your practice.

I was teaching at a course a few months back and one technique was using the Jo. The first thing I said to those there, who came from Aikikai and Tomiki schools, as well as Yoshinkan, was that I would not make them stand differently, but that there kamae should be that which is taught in their school. If they had not practiced with a Jo before then they should stand the same way with the Jo as they do without it.

I personally don't practice that which is different from my core practice as to be contradictary. When I practice striking, throwing, Jo, Bokken, whatever, it is from the core of my practice. I donít do Jodo as a regular practice in a Jo-dojo, but have found it is complementary.

In fact as far as stance is concerned, the only difference I have found is that some Kendo and Jodo schools have the feet pointing forwards, not at 45 degrees as we do in Yoshinkan.

Donít try and climb 3 mountains!

Best wishes.

Fred26
01-02-2005, 09:51 AM
Hi Fredrik,

, your teacher would be justifiably unhappy. The best situation would be to do both with the same teacher, who would hopefully be aware of potential pitfalls and would guide you carefully.

Charles

In that case I'm lucky. The head of my aikido club (1st Dan) will also start Jodo training in febuary. And he is usually in charge of the aikido-jo training sessions as well. :D

kironin
01-02-2005, 11:02 AM
In that case I'm lucky. The head of my aikido club (1st Dan) will also start Jodo training in febuary. And he is usually in charge of the aikido-jo training sessions as well. :D

Sounds like a great opportunity!
Jodo is always performed as paired practice. Your Aikido teacher may appreciate having someone else as a practice partner outside of class and I am sure he could point out as you go where significant differences are.

I don't see there being much of a problem or conflict. Ki Aikido jo focuses on solo practice. The tori/uke role of handling a bokken against a jo is considered a teacher's role, learned much later and done to focus students on correct form in solo practice. In Ki Aikido we don't have a bunch of bokken or jo paired practice invented to relate to empty handed technique. Our weapons work relates to fundamental body movement and Ki principles.

Jodo focuses on paired practice from the beginning and the bokken role is a generally the teachinng(sempai) role but students do practice both sides.
Traditional practice is never solo. You will learn a great deal about things like maai.

If anything, it will in the long run much improve the precision of you Aikido jo and bokken forms. You will be able to appreciate the deeper aspects of the movements and reflect it in your timing and movement.

go for it.

siwilson
01-02-2005, 12:07 PM
My Sensei was the first Engish Mudan section Jodo champion and is Dan graded in both Jodo and Iaido. We all know the 31 Jo Kata, but have you practiced it in a Jodo exercise, using the moves of the Kata against an attacker with a bokken!

He is one of the most awesome Aikidoka I have ever seen, and with his weapons knowledge - I am sooooo lucky!

siwilson
01-02-2005, 12:11 PM
Fredrik,

Do it! I think it will be one of the best experiences you will ever have! I have no Jo-dojo near me, but if I did, I would train there as well. I have practiced Jodo and got so much from it.

I don't think it will contradict your Aikido, but that said I haven't practiced Ki Aikido. Go and do it and let us know how you get on.

Good luck!

pointy
01-02-2005, 12:13 PM
there is an old timer at my dojo, i think he is 4th dan in both aikido and jodo. the crosstraining doesnt seem to bother him much ;)

but then again i know he left one art for the other for a while. i think it had to do with a wrist injury though...

sometimes he sees us praciting with sticks in our (aikido) dojo, and with a smile will say something like "why do it that way, it makes no sense....?"

Fred26
01-02-2005, 12:17 PM
Certainly no lack of support here :)

Paul Sanderson-Cimino
01-02-2005, 09:00 PM
My vote is to keep them separate in your mind. If anything, try to find the /differences/ as intently as you can.

siwilson
01-02-2005, 09:43 PM
My vote is to keep them separate in your mind. If anything, try to find the /differences/ as intently as you can.

Bad idea. Like I said before, you cannot climb 2 mountains at once!

;)

PeterR
01-02-2005, 10:06 PM
Well he is just starting. More like wandering around in the foothills which can be shared between mountains.

I think a little bit of exploration at the beginning is a good thing. Gives you a greater chance of finding what's suitable for you.

Now once you decide on something focus does become the key.

Chris Li
01-03-2005, 12:00 AM
Bad idea. Like I said before, you cannot climb 2 mountains at once!

;)

Seems to make sense, but not really.

A number of studies have been done on children raised to be bilingual, for example. The general conclusion is that such children lag behind their mono-lingual counterparts when young (that "two mountain thing").

OTOH, the studies seem to agree that the bilingual children end up (on average) exceeding their mono-lingual playmates in the long run - and not just in language.

Name just about any major figure in the martial arts, including Morihei Ueshiba, and you will find that they studied multiple disciplines simultaneously while still in their beginning stages.

Best,

Chris

JJF
01-03-2005, 01:28 AM
Hi Si! Just a few comments: In the style I practice (Nishio ryu) the three 'mountains' of jodo, iaido and aikido has been gathered into one. The jo and bokken are integral parts of our aikido-practice including paired jo vs. bokken and bokken vs. bokken techniques. On top of this we also do iaido. First and foremost the type caled Aiki-toho but also some of the 'old-school' iaido katas. We are STRONGLY recommende to pracitce to-ho/iaido though it is not mandatory.

It seems to work quite well.... :D

Fred26
01-03-2005, 01:53 AM
Its all great advice..thanks.

One of the reasons I've been hesitant is the fact that NONE of my club members, besides the headinstructor, had any plans or even ideas of training Jodo. When I first heard of Jodo I thought it would be an almost perfect complementary training for Aikido, and I thought that the veterans of my club had the same idea. But they didnt. Actually some of them gave me strange looks when I mentioned my interest in jodo. :D

siwilson
04-04-2005, 05:44 PM
Hi Si! Just a few comments: In the style I practice (Nishio ryu) the three 'mountains' of jodo, iaido and aikido has been gathered into one. The jo and bokken are integral parts of our aikido-practice including paired jo vs. bokken and bokken vs. bokken techniques. On top of this we also do iaido. First and foremost the type caled Aiki-toho but also some of the 'old-school' iaido katas. We are STRONGLY recommende to pracitce to-ho/iaido though it is not mandatory.

It seems to work quite well.... :D

Absolutely, if it is trained the same way - read same direction - otherwise you end up trying to learn 3 things, not one. That's all!

:)

jester
04-05-2005, 08:51 AM
Hello. I started with Ki Aikido in sept. 2004 and I've been eyeballing my local clubs Jodo&Iaido section as a means to crosstrain starting in Feb 2005. The problem is that I will begin my AIkido weapons training at the same time.

Do they teach Shindo Muso-ryu Jodo?

Fred26
04-06-2005, 01:13 AM
Do they teach Shindo Muso-ryu Jodo?

Hm...I'm honestly not 100% sure. It seems to be a low priority in both aikido and jodo/iaido (my own club of Budo-kai that is) to discuss exactly what style you belong to and what the differences are.

We had a small introduction once regarding the origins of the Jo, katas and so on, but I can't really remember anyone mentioning a specific organisation and/or style.

However, I do know that the leader for our type of Jodo resides in Switzerland, that might be a clue to what org/style we belong too.

I know this for a fact caus during our yesterday training we took a few (digital) photos to send to the sensei, along with a small video-clip of our Jodo group singing "Happy Birthday" in swedish and rounding of with three "Banzai" cheers. I think we lost most of our dignity doing the singing, but a birthday only happens once a year anyways. :p