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Bill Danosky
12-24-2004, 08:59 AM
Which edged weapon arts do you like best? I notice a few people have multiple arts in their credentials and am wondering how one makes it all jive.

Not that I want to turn this into, "If a Kali guy met a Samurai and a renaissance Italian swordsman, etc." I know it basically goes to the skill level of the practitioner.

But in a hypothetical situation, which one(s) are actually the most effective? I happen to like the Kung Fu weapon forms, but that's just because I like them. I think a katana would be an awesome and very scary thing to face, but I don't know that a samurai couldn't be out-fenced.

My suspicion would be that the European would run the Japanese through and be immediately cleaved into pieces by the dying Samurai. But would a Kali practitioner do better?

Who knows? (I mean that literally, this time.)

dan guthrie
12-24-2004, 06:45 PM
I'm completely ignorant so I have a firm conviction on what would happen.
From what I've seen of Iaido IF the samurai and Cyrano suddenly decided to kill each other the benefit would lean toward the samurai. He/she would probably slice into Cyrano as he/she unsheathed his/her katana and Cyrano was unsheathing his sword.
IF they both entered a large room with swords out Cyrano might hold the advantage the longer the duel goes on, pricking the samurai and then backing off. I've seen a sword expert on teevee say that the katana's weight would make the attack slower but Cyrano would only get one good lunge in before losing an extremity. His rapier wouldn't deflect a shomen uchi slice.
Anyone else? My brain is now officially empty on this subject.
BTW good subject, imo.

thomas_dixon
12-25-2004, 12:49 AM
I love Kali. I also learn both Japanese Sword and Spanish Rapier in my Kali class, along with the traditional Filipino weapons..so theres no room to complain here. (including unarmed)

SeiserL
12-25-2004, 01:13 PM
IMHO, it is not the edged weapon that matters but the person whose hand it is in.

But, I would put my bet on FMA. (I've done FMA for over 20 years so I am very bias about its weapons system).

Bill Danosky
12-25-2004, 03:04 PM
Yeah, all the folks at Cold Steel, inc. are FMA fanatics, too. I'd think they would know and they certainly have options available to them. "If memory serves me correctly", Filipino arts have a European influence from having been Spanish occupied and they had intermittent experience against katanas, too.

Here's a context issue I just thought of: It seems the different styles of edged combat are adapted to the kind of armor they were using. What do we assume our opponent is wearing? Are we going to say this is dojo combat? A modern or ancient battlefield? City street where people happen to be carrying their martial arts assault gear? Home defense trenchfighting?

Wanna make a no armor assumption?

dan guthrie
12-25-2004, 06:37 PM
I thought about this a long time ago and I think the only way it could be settled would be on something like the Holodeck in the Star Trek series. That way each person could train extensively with "live steel" against virtual experts without any actual harm.
Bill, I think you'd have to break it down to two kinds of use, civilian and military. The military option would have to assume absolute preparation, i.e. armor if you have it, horses, archers etc. On the civilian side a cloak or chunk of wood found in an alley could be improvised shields. As Thomas suggested hands-free might be wise if the encounter is in a tight space.

rookie
12-25-2004, 11:46 PM
does kali have good empty handed techniques? i found a guy who says he teaches kali, what other techniques does kali teach besides weapons?

thomas_dixon
12-26-2004, 01:14 AM
You start off with weapons first.

Kali's hand to hand combat includes (depending on the system), punching, kicking, trapping, locking, throws, elbows, knees, breaks, chokes and some include groundfighting (since 90% of fights end up on the ground). Kali also has extensive footwork :)

thomas_dixon
12-26-2004, 01:15 AM
IMHO, it is not the edged weapon that matters but the person whose hand it is in.

But, I would put my bet on FMA. (I've done FMA for over 20 years so I am very bias about its weapons system).

What style?

Yeah, all the folks at Cold Steel, inc. are FMA fanatics, too. I'd think they would know and they certainly have options available to them. "If memory serves me correctly", Filipino arts have a European influence from having been Spanish occupied and they had intermittent experience against katanas, too.

I believe they were invaded by the Japanese at one point in time, and naturally borrowed the most effective techniques from their fighting systems and implemented it into Kali.

It's obvious they were invaded by the Spanish (after holding them off for 400 years), and of course took rapier techniques and put it into the (then) outlawed Kali. Thats where terminology like "Espada y Daga" (Sword and Dagger) come from. It's also where people get the stereotypical view that all Kali styles are stickfighting, Because weapons and their martial arts were outlawed, they had to hide their MA system as dances, using sticks in place of swords.

Bill Danosky
12-26-2004, 08:09 AM
I think you'd have to break it down to two kinds of use, civilian and military.

Yes, that's a particularly interesting point to me since I figure to go my entire life and never be in the military. I can now distill my training into the civilian method, less any law enforcement tactics.

If I'm called upon to use my empty-handed skills, it could be in any variety of situations. But as far as the weapons combat- Unless I get jumped on my way to or from the dojo, I won't have my bokken handy.

So I'm basically talking about home invasion counter-techniques and I-don't-know-what. Dueling, maybe?

I've just about answered my own question (with a little help from my friends). I'm thinking Kali wins, since it teaches you to use weapons you're more likely to have with you, like folding knives and daggers.

In gun talk circles, there's a saying that the worst Saturday night special is better than the custom .45 race gun you left at home. In the final analysis, that's probably the answer that's most appropriate here, too.

Adramalek
12-27-2004, 02:13 AM
Filipino arts are great!!! when it comes to edge weapons, but it depends on who is practicing....... If you put a tall stocky guy, and start teaching him basic blocking using a Kali stick, you'll see that it takes more time for him to adapt the foot work to the techniques, this will be much easier if you show it to a smaller person, because the movement comes more natural.... you'll see that the deferent arts apply better to the body type of the people who developed them,.... for example imagine a 5'4" Filipino moving around a Claimour sword,.... hes balance will be jeopardized by the weight of the sword exposing him to attacks,.... now imagine a 240 pound Saxon or Viking,.... specially a Berserker using a small Spanish Gladiux (Gladiatorial) sword..... the systems where developed according with the reality of combat at the time.... for example Jujutsu deals with throws, Joint locks and strangulations... all techniques that a samurai armor cannot defend, because, it attacks the movement structure of it; European weapons tend to be bigger and heaver because the people were bigger and they had to deal with armored enemies, that if the sword didn't pierce the armor, it will bend it and still cause harm,....... the same applies for all others...... Based on our reality of no armor, no swords being publicly carried, I'll have to say that Filipino arts covers sticks and small and medium knifes, the same that are in our kitchens, a car antenna can be used as a Kali stick, a small box cutter can be carried with no legal problems.... soooooo for me is Espada y Daga along with Kali evileyes
The Evil Ways Continue evileyes

thomas_dixon
12-27-2004, 10:46 PM
Filipino arts are great!!! when it comes to edge weapons, but it depends on who is practicing....... If you put a tall stocky guy, and start teaching him basic blocking using a Kali stick, you'll see that it takes more time for him to adapt the foot work to the techniques, this will be much easier if you show it to a smaller person, because the movement comes more natural.... you'll see that the deferent arts apply better to the body type of the people who developed them,.... for example imagine a 5'4" Filipino moving around a Claimour sword,.... hes balance will be jeopardized by the weight of the sword exposing him to attacks,.... now imagine a 240 pound Saxon or Viking,.... specially a Berserker using a small Spanish Gladiux (Gladiatorial) sword..... the systems where developed according with the reality of combat at the time.... for example Jujutsu deals with throws, Joint locks and strangulations... all techniques that a samurai armor cannot defend, because, it attacks the movement structure of it; European weapons tend to be bigger and heaver because the people were bigger and they had to deal with armored enemies, that if the sword didn't pierce the armor, it will bend it and still cause harm,....... the same applies for all others...... Based on our reality of no armor, no swords being publicly carried, I'll have to say that Filipino arts covers sticks and small and medium knifes, the same that are in our kitchens, a car antenna can be used as a Kali stick, a small box cutter can be carried with no legal problems.... soooooo for me is Espada y Daga along with Kali evileyes
The Evil Ways Continue evileyes

You don't block that I know of in Kali...Except the X block..and thats only for a "Oh Sh*t!!" situation.

Can't really agree on the footwork, even if someone is taller, the movement is proportionately bigger, but still the same. It's like walking, they'll take bigger strides, but they aren't really walking any different.

Car antannas? You're kidding right?

Adramalek
12-28-2004, 12:41 AM
The overhead parry,... is listed many systems as a block,... so when you deflect(using a circular motion allowing the stick to be hit as it deflects) .... Soooooooooo Tommy,... it is a block,... it is called in some systems escudo alto or Hi Shield.... OK second,... car antennas are easily accessible on the street, just get over the fact that you are depriving that Jaguar from AM mourning shows,... rip one and hey, try hitting your own leg with one and then tell me am kidding.... never underestimate the power of AM radio....... Unless you are listening to Rush( Am Hi on legal pills) Limbaugh Now... Tall people... Go and sit on a club and look at tall guys dance,... then tell me about grace of movement... Basically people who are taller depend more on strength than grace and Kali is an art based on grace, and rhythmic movement, but you are entitled to your opinion... I based mine on actual training exercises by fellow instructors and by my own students. One of them is 6' 7" and it is hard for him, to go through sequences when economy of motion (Ask Dan Inosanto about that) is required because in fact, most people are not that tall, so their movements physically travel much less distance there for, are faster, easier to follow with second attacks, and leave less expose areas... Am not saying that tall people are not fit to train in Filipino arts... Am pointing out the fact that they need to learn to compensate for certain physical realities. that if not address in training, can put them in a disadvantage against a person of equal skill,...l referring of course, about the martial art itself

thomas_dixon
12-28-2004, 02:06 AM
The overhead parry,... is listed many systems as a block,... so when you deflect(using a circular motion allowing the stick to be hit as it deflects) .... Soooooooooo Tommy,... it is a block,... it is called in some systems escudo alto or Hi Shield.... OK second,... car antennas are easily accessible on the street, just get over the fact that you are depriving that Jaguar from AM mourning shows,... rip one and hey, try hitting your own leg with one and then tell me am kidding.... never underestimate the power of AM radio....... Unless you are listening to Rush( Am Hi on legal pills) Limbaugh Now... Tall people... Go and sit on a club and look at tall guys dance,... then tell me about grace of movement... Basically people who are taller depend more on strength than grace and Kali is an art based on grace, and rhythmic movement, but you are entitled to your opinion... I based mine on actual training exercises by fellow instructors and by my own students. One of them is 6' 7" and it is hard for him, to go through sequences when economy of motion (Ask Dan Inosanto about that) is required because in fact, most people are not that tall, so their movements physically travel much less distance there for, are faster, easier to follow with second attacks, and leave less expose areas... Am not saying that tall people are not fit to train in Filipino arts... Am pointing out the fact that they need to learn to compensate for certain physical realities. that if not address in training, can put them in a disadvantage against a person of equal skill,...l referring of course, about the martial art itself

All you had to say was overhead parry. :) Never heard it called a block :(

Car antannas are good whipping weapons, but...they'll do little more than sting, and even less depending on what clothes you have on..I guess it could do until you get into enough range for unarmed..maybe punyo into an armbar...

My instructor, one of them, is like 6' 1" - 6' 4" and his footwork is insane...

Do you train/teach Inosanto Blend?

Adramalek
12-28-2004, 03:44 AM
6-1 is not tall kid, a normal guy is 6' so hey most likely he developed that foot work,... am talking about natural grace,... it is called (puņo) fist, but i like it you seem to know some Spanish, and that shows you are open minded,.... and that will help your training in the future, because the best teachers tend to be non English speaking,.. at least not fluent, so thats good; I hold rank in Dacuerdas Escrima,.... the parry is a block because remember,.... it used to be Machetes they used to fight,.... so a cut to the deltoid area had to be deflected preferably,.... but not everybody is that fast, so the resting of the Machete on the side of your shoulder,... could prevent a nasty cut......... Extra just for you Kiddo: Machete is the implementation by the Bascos from Spain of the Shmithar sword..... just a bonus because you seem like a smart kid..... have fun in your training

thomas_dixon
12-28-2004, 06:14 AM
6-1 is not tall kid, a normal guy is 6' so hey most likely he developed that foot work,... am talking about natural grace,... it is called (puņo) fist, but i like it you seem to know some Spanish, and that shows you are open minded,.... and that will help your training in the future, because the best teachers tend to be non English speaking,.. at least not fluent, so thats good; I hold rank in Dacuerdas Escrima,.... the parry is a block because remember,.... it used to be Machetes they used to fight,.... so a cut to the deltoid area had to be deflected preferably,.... but not everybody is that fast, so the resting of the Machete on the side of your shoulder,... could prevent a nasty cut......... Extra just for you Kiddo: Machete is the implementation by the Bascos from Spain of the Shmithar sword..... just a bonus because you seem like a smart kid..... have fun in your training

Our system is based on Sayoc and another I can't spell right, but it sounded like Panburen (I'll ask the correct spelling), so we use more Filipino and English terms than Spanish ones (we still say Espada y Daga, etc.)

Punyo is also correct, no?

And I was thinking of a completely different parry...my bad. :eek:

y hablo un poco espanol

Adramalek
12-28-2004, 09:27 PM
OK mijo ..... jaja,.. puņo ..... just click Alt, and the numbers 164 .... punyo is incorrect in Espaņol ,...so most likely someone didn't know how to get the (ņ) on their keyboard ,...and just went by how it sounded, but now you know and can help them,... remember the Philippines were a Spanish colony until 1898 when the Spanish American war was at its hi,... so too,.. many other islands,.... like my hometown of Puerto Rico, became colonies and basically still are, because if you want for example to vote for the president, you have to travel to one of the 50 states and do it ,... you can't from here, but we were called on the draft for Vietnam like any other American citizen ,.... we are called a commonwealth by politicians, but our constitution says Estado Libre Asociado (Free Associated State),.... last I herd a free state is a Republic, and association doesn't mine to rule someone, every decision is made in the US congress or by the US president that we didn't vote for ,...in 1956 they allow us to get a constitution, but if any law of that Constitution, go against the will of the white house, or the Pentagon,.... guess what... it becomes another paper,... just that... they just don't call it a colony because of the international opinion,... how you think it would look if the defenders of peace and democracy, admitted openly to the world, that they have 4.5 million American citizens that they by law don't allow to vote for the president but can send to war for example,.... look for the most decorated soldier of the Korean War.... ohhhhhh and if you just mention independence they blackball,.. you and call you a communist...that's it no middle ground black or white.... the problem with my people, is the same that a Pit Bull has when it has being chained to long,... even if the chain is gone,.... he wont run because his will has been broken.... but hey,... your history teacher can hook you up with some good facts...... or if he is a republican...... with some awesome lies..... hopefully you be able to make your own mind..... have fun kiddo, and remember mix it up.... it is cool to know techniques, but remember sparing constantly & competing are the only true ways to be effective, so pick up a big dude,.... let him feel superior,.... and when he make that mistake,..(and trust me ...if he is bigger he will make the mistake you just have to wait and capitalize on it) let im have it FULL FORCE.... I hope a could tell you effectiveness is attain by visiting old people on nursing homes,... but no..... you have the will, now develop the instinct.... and after you choke him out.... then,.... do your shinto meditation, and read your favorite Zen quote... but only after he taps or passes out Kid ... that's the standard. The Evil Ways Will Continue

thomas_dixon
12-29-2004, 09:03 AM
OK mijo ..... jaja,.. puņo ..... just click Alt, and the numbers 164 .... punyo is incorrect in Espaņol ,...so most likely someone didn't know how to get the (ņ) on their keyboard ,...and just went by how it sounded, but now you know and can help them,... remember the Philippines were a Spanish colony until 1898 when the Spanish American war was at its hi,... so too,.. many other islands,.... like my hometown of Puerto Rico, became colonies and basically still are, because if you want for example to vote for the president, you have to travel to one of the 50 states and do it ,... you can't from here, but we were called on the draft for Vietnam like any other American citizen ,.... we are called a commonwealth by politicians, but our constitution says Estado Libre Asociado (Free Associated State),.... last I herd a free state is a Republic, and association doesn't mine to rule someone, every decision is made in the US congress or by the US president that we didn't vote for ,...in 1956 they allow us to get a constitution, but if any law of that Constitution, go against the will of the white house, or the Pentagon,.... guess what... it becomes another paper,... just that... they just don't call it a colony because of the international opinion,... how you think it would look if the defenders of peace and democracy, admitted openly to the world, that they have 4.5 million American citizens that they by law don't allow to vote for the president but can send to war for example,.... look for the most decorated soldier of the Korean War.... ohhhhhh and if you just mention independence they blackball,.. you and call you a communist...that's it no middle ground black or white.... the problem with my people, is the same that a Pit Bull has when it has being chained to long,... even if the chain is gone,.... he wont run because his will has been broken.... but hey,... your history teacher can hook you up with some good facts...... or if he is a republican...... with some awesome lies..... hopefully you be able to make your own mind..... have fun kiddo, and remember mix it up.... it is cool to know techniques, but remember sparing constantly & competing are the only true ways to be effective, so pick up a big dude,.... let him feel superior,.... and when he make that mistake,..(and trust me ...if he is bigger he will make the mistake you just have to wait and capitalize on it) let im have it FULL FORCE.... I hope a could tell you effectiveness is attain by visiting old people on nursing homes,... but no..... you have the will, now develop the instinct.... and after you choke him out.... then,.... do your shinto meditation, and read your favorite Zen quote... but only after he taps or passes out Kid ... that's the standard. The Evil Ways Will Continue

I didn't know any of that about Puerto Rico. If I remember correctly, it was the Americans who took over after the Spanish in the Philipines, and finally the Philipines declared independence.

In reality, I'm a big guy myself. I'm about 5' 11" and 220 pounds. So I'm really trying to get my footwork down :cool:

SeiserL
12-29-2004, 09:11 AM
IMHO, a funny observation; Notice how quickly FMA dominated this thread. Does that answer the question?

BTW: I trained in FMA/JKD with the late Ted Lucaylucay 20 years ago and still make a couple seminars in different systems each year. Something about the smell of burining rattan, the whirl of the sticks, and the beating of the drums. AHHH, life is good.

dan guthrie
12-29-2004, 08:29 PM
Asking any experts, given equal expertise in the users, who would win a duel between jo and ken? I think the jo has the edge (pun intended) and I also think a bokken wielder would beat a ken wielder. ( I hope I'm using 'ken' correctly meaning a live steel Japanese sword ).

xuzen
12-29-2004, 09:11 PM
...<snip>...I also think a bokken wielder would beat a ken wielder. ( I hope I'm using 'ken' correctly meaning a live steel Japanese sword ).

Why?

Boon.

PeterR
12-29-2004, 09:13 PM
Asking any experts, given equal expertise in the users, who would win a duel between jo and ken? I think the jo has the edge (pun intended) and I also think a bokken wielder would beat a ken wielder. ( I hope I'm using 'ken' correctly meaning a live steel Japanese sword ).
According to legend the only time Musashi was beaten was by a Jo. However, I'll be you good money he would not have been beaten twice. Faced with an unfamiliar weapon you are often at a disadvantage.

I would choose a sharp, pointy, steel weapon over a piece of wood any day.

Something to consider is that weapon and armor tend to evolve together.

Against an unarmored samurai I would take a rapier. A good thrusting weapon with enough of an edge to do damage to skin and muscle.

Against an armored samurai (early Edo let's say) I would want something with a bit more heft to it (Claymore might be too big) or what the samurai from that period themselves preferred - a spear. I'm assuming we are not talking about projectile weapons such as a bow or guns.

The katana used in battle were bigger, heavier and duller than what people carried around at a latter time. The use was not that much different than the above mentioned claymore.

Adramalek
12-29-2004, 11:48 PM
TOMMY ,...you are not a big guy ,... you maybe stocky, but not tall ,...meaning your limbs are not so long....., that a tendency of leaving openings,... created by you body structure. is a problem, you are only 71" hi...... so you should not have the problems that a 6' 6" may confront,..... make sure that your body fat % is low.... by low I mean under 18% , that's gravy.... but with your hight,..... assuming that you have a thick bone structure.,,, you should be alright..... remember , endurance is the key, so boxing can up your endurance...... especially on your arms, that can make a big difference,..... most big dudes relay to much on their power.... but like in the case of some K-1 fighters, they punch themselves out,..... this should be also addressed in you training schedule...... grappling is a good way to develop endurance also,.... for example, try from the mounted pos. getting an arm bar (Jujigatame)... then go back to Mount ,... let your training partner throw some hits,... and do another bar on the opposite side,... keeping a count of : position, two deflections, arm bar,...... and go back to position up to 10 times,..... then change over....... you go on the Christ position, and your buddy does the drill..... this can be used even with Aikido,.... for instance: uke punches,.... nage goes for Kote Gaeshi,... and then mounts,.... after that you start the drill...... hope your training goes..... smoooooth.... pimp daddy
The Evil Ways Keep Bugging

thomas_dixon
12-30-2004, 06:46 AM
TOMMY ,...you are not a big guy ,... you maybe stocky, but not tall ,...meaning your limbs are not so long....., that a tendency of leaving openings,... created by you body structure. is a problem, you are only 71" hi...... so you should not have the problems that a 6' 6" may confront,..... make sure that your body fat % is low.... by low I mean under 18% , that's gravy.... but with your hight,..... assuming that you have a thick bone structure.,,, you should be alright..... remember , endurance is the key, so boxing can up your endurance...... especially on your arms, that can make a big difference,..... most big dudes relay to much on their power.... but like in the case of some K-1 fighters, they punch themselves out,..... this should be also addressed in you training schedule...... grappling is a good way to develop endurance also,.... for example, try from the mounted pos. getting an arm bar (Jujigatame)... then go back to Mount ,... let your training partner throw some hits,... and do another bar on the opposite side,... keeping a count of : position, two deflections, arm bar,...... and go back to position up to 10 times,..... then change over....... you go on the Christ position, and your buddy does the drill..... this can be used even with Aikido,.... for instance: uke punches,.... nage goes for Kote Gaeshi,... and then mounts,.... after that you start the drill...... hope your training goes..... smoooooth.... pimp daddy
The Evil Ways Keep Bugging

Thanks for the info :)

My FMA class thankfully includes grappling, and even knife fighting from the mount position :)

thomas_dixon
12-30-2004, 06:53 AM
Asking any experts, given equal expertise in the users, who would win a duel between jo and ken? I think the jo has the edge (pun intended) and I also think a bokken wielder would beat a ken wielder. ( I hope I'm using 'ken' correctly meaning a live steel Japanese sword ).

Depends. Unless the Bokken wielder was Musashi, I doubt it. One proper cut to the bokken and half his weapon is gone.

Jo and Ken? Probably same thing.

The Daito has a major advantage over any wooden weapon in the fact it can cut and thrust/stab. While a wodden weapon can break bones, a Daito can sever limbs.

Distance may be the only advantage a Jo user has, and even that can be taken away depending on the length of the Blade and Tsuka on the Daito.

dan guthrie
12-30-2004, 08:48 AM
Why?

Boon.

Partly because of the legend that a jo wielder beat Musashi once (thanks for reminding me PeterR). Musashi used wooden weapons quite a bit. I also saw a History Channel story on the staff a few years ago in which a man - I think it took place in Italy - using a staff challenged two fencers to a three-way duel and beat them both.
The extra length of the staff can do nasty things to the opponents legs and still keep a safe distance.
I am not convinced a ken will cut through a jo like butter.
I'm not married to any of these ideas but I would like to see what people here think.
Anyone else here heard that some countries (Russia and then the USSR for example) manufactured their sword blades dull because they found out the wounds were just as damaging as cuts from a sharp sword? Musashi, with a bokken, beat one man's arm so severely he screamed to have it amputated.

Bill Danosky
12-30-2004, 09:56 AM
In weapon sparring, jo weilders can beat the pants off a bokken wielder because with only one "weapon" end you can't react fast enough to block both ends of a jo and attack. A long time ago, I found this out the hard way, much to my dismay! Then there's the length advantage.

OTOH, if you're planning to go up against a katana with a jo, you also better be really good with escrima sticks, because that's what you'll be holding about two seconds into the fight (then two kubotans, then, well, anybody remember the black knight from Monty Python and the Holy Grail?).

SeiserL
12-30-2004, 10:41 AM
anybody remember the black knight from Monty Python and the Holy Grail?).

I often use that scene to depict true fighting spirit.

Matt Molloy
12-30-2004, 02:30 PM
According to legend the only time Musashi was beaten was by a Jo. However, I'll be you good money he would not have been beaten twice. Faced with an unfamiliar weapon you are often at a disadvantage.

I would choose a sharp, pointy, steel weapon over a piece of wood any day.

Something to consider is that weapon and armor tend to evolve together.

Against an unarmored samurai I would take a rapier. A good thrusting weapon with enough of an edge to do damage to skin and muscle.

Against an armored samurai (early Edo let's say) I would want something with a bit more heft to it (Claymore might be too big) or what the samurai from that period themselves preferred - a spear. I'm assuming we are not talking about projectile weapons such as a bow or guns.

The katana used in battle were bigger, heavier and duller than what people carried around at a latter time. The use was not that much different than the above mentioned claymore.

Bugger all that. Pass the Naginata. Now you have blade, pole and distance. :D

Cheers,

Matt.

PeterR
12-30-2004, 05:59 PM
Bugger all that. Pass the Naginata. Now you have blade, pole and distance.
:D

I once trained with the Hozin-ryu guys. 12 foot spears - there was a reason that naginata went out of fashion.


As far as I know Musashi did use wooden weapons a lot but I don't think it was against a katana armed opponent - with the exception of the battle on the beach (and even here it was not clear). I've heard mention that he found it was a more versatile weapon but challenge matches were often fought bokken against bokken.

Adramalek
12-30-2004, 08:47 PM
the jo,... bokken, and live sword discussion..... hey is about who has the weapon.... if a mediocre skill swordsman, go against a properly train jo-jutsu, bojutsu or hambojutsu guy...... he is a goner..... the same can be said about any other combination, I confronted that question on the 99 Summit in Oklahoma from a 3rd kyu...... while he was later putting ice on his temple, I explain to him the same am explaining now..... it is about mastery of the weapon system.... A good cut,.... thats right.... needs to be a guy with enouth experience to deal with the adrenaline dump,... other wise.... even a guy with a Knife can send him to the pearly gates...... imagine a 75 year old guy with arthritis,.... who has a sword,... against lets say a 25 year old,... shotokan guy,.. who has been training in Bo or jo jutsu since he was 4...... hey it is not the weapon,.... is who has it,... and what the hell he or she can do with it.....The Evil Ways Continue

PeterR
12-30-2004, 09:11 PM
In weapon sparring, jo weilders can beat the pants off a bokken wielder because with only one "weapon" end you can't react fast enough to block both ends of a jo and attack. A long time ago, I found this out the hard way, much to my dismay!
That's because you used the bokken as a sword. There is no reason to be limited to that. Interestingly one of the SMR grips look as if they are holding the Jo like a sword.

xuzen
12-30-2004, 10:10 PM
Notice how the warriors of old and modern are seldom skill in one weapon only. Don't know abt European knights but in Chinese History, famous warriors are adept at distance (bow and arrow), middle range (Halberd or spear) and short range (sword, hammer, mace etc).

This pragmatic approach IMO, ensured their names are forever echoed in eternity as Russel Crowe uttered in the famed movie Gladiators.


Boon.

thomas_dixon
12-31-2004, 03:18 AM
Notice how the warriors of old and modern are seldom skill in one weapon only. Don't know abt European knights but in Chinese History, famous warriors are adept at distance (bow and arrow), middle range (Halberd or spear) and short range (sword, hammer, mace etc).

This pragmatic approach IMO, ensured their names are forever echoed in eternity as Russel Crowe uttered in the famed movie Gladiators.


Boon.

And the Japanese destroyed them when they invaded China.

xuzen
12-31-2004, 03:49 AM
Thomas,

Wrong, wrong, wrong. History lesson revisited. Japan was never able to invade China throughout the millenia until during world war 2. That is with the help of Tanks, Guns, DiveBomber et cetera. China herself was already beset with tonnes of internal strife (e.g., Civil War between the Nationalist and Communist party).

If you can defeat a very sickly man, it is nothing great, no big deal even. Same analogy here.

Boon.

thomas_dixon
12-31-2004, 06:59 AM
Thomas,

Wrong, wrong, wrong. History lesson revisited. Japan was never able to invade China throughout the millenia until during world war 2. That is with the help of Tanks, Guns, DiveBomber et cetera. China herself was already beset with tonnes of internal strife (e.g., Civil War between the Nationalist and Communist party).

If you can defeat a very sickly man, it is nothing great, no big deal even. Same analogy here.

Boon.

Ahh well, I wasn't aware of the political upheaval China was suffering at the time. The History channel kind of left that out :x

Bill Danosky
01-01-2005, 06:23 PM
That's because you used the bokken as a sword. There is no reason to be limited to that.
I thought about that, especially since I'm considering using a bokken as a primary weapon. The only thing that makes me reconsider using the entire bokken, jo style, is that I don't want to train different habits than I want to use (hypothetically speaking). Is that what you meant?

The habits you learn on the firing range can kill you in a gunfight, like pocketing your empty shell casings while you should be reloading. I wouldn't want to involuntarily reach up and grab my katana blade because I'm used to doing that with a bokken.

I also thought I'd add to the statement above that even a weekend warrior might like to have proficiency at contact, short, medium and long range applications. Since Aikido is a modern martial art, I find it appropriate to include a moderate amount of firearm training in my regimen. There's a reason 12 foot spears went out of fashion, too!

PeterR
01-01-2005, 08:10 PM
So why the bokken as a primary weapon. It's not like you are going to carry one around.

thomas_dixon
01-02-2005, 08:27 AM
I thought about that, especially since I'm considering using a bokken as a primary weapon. The only thing that makes me reconsider using the entire bokken, jo style, is that I don't want to train different habits than I want to use (hypothetically speaking). Is that what you meant?

The habits you learn on the firing range can kill you in a gunfight, like pocketing your empty shell casings while you should be reloading. I wouldn't want to involuntarily reach up and grab my katana blade because I'm used to doing that with a bokken.

I also thought I'd add to the statement above that even a weekend warrior might like to have proficiency at contact, short, medium and long range applications. Since Aikido is a modern martial art, I find it appropriate to include a moderate amount of firearm training in my regimen. There's a reason 12 foot spears went out of fashion, too!

1) Basicallly what peter said...What do you mean as your primary weapon?

2) Do you seriously think that someone would pocket shells instead of reloading if someone was shooting at them? While I think that someone could accidently grab the blade of their Katana, I think it's unlikely. The Bokken and Katana are two different weapons, they're only similar in shape, and you should be able to recognize this on instinct and not grab the blade out of habit. I think one of the best examples of this is infact, Kali. We do stick as stick, and stick as blade. Or basically we practice stick, while treating it as a blade (or use a trainer), and we practice stick as it's own weapon. The targets are different on both, and you can easily switch hands, grab both ends, disarm, etc with stick. Plus, you're talking about using a Bokken as your primary weapon remember? So you won't be using a Katana.

3) How exactly is firearm training defensive? And I thought a Bokken was your primary weapon? :hypno: I'm conf00s3d.

Bill Danosky
01-02-2005, 01:24 PM
So why the bokken as a primary weapon. It's not like you are going to carry one around.
No, of course not. By primary, I mean favorite. One I'd feel comfortable using against any other melee weapon.

The real commentary there is that I'd be opting for a bokken, even over a 'real' sword in whatever hypothetical situation you want to say. But in order to win with a bokken against a jo or other staff you'd have to know some kind of "bokken-budo", which is to say, techniques particular to the bokken and separate from the bokken as a sword substitute.

I guess I meant to distinguish between it's use as a training tool and an actual weapon.

Bill Danosky
01-02-2005, 02:16 PM
...Do you seriously think that someone would pocket shells instead of reloading if someone was shooting at them? While I think that someone could accidently grab the blade of their Katana, I think it's unlikely. ...Plus, you're talking about using a Bokken as your primary weapon remember? So you won't be using a Katana.
..... I'm conf00s3d.
Yes, there are documented instances where trained police officers have done this in the midst of gunfire. Also, as another sad example, one officer had a gunman lean across the hood of the car he was behind and put a bullet in his head while he struggled to get the sixth round in his revolver. (As opposed to returning fire with the 4 or so he had loaded.)

I could go on and on about people who are shot while pocketing their empty mags instead of dropping them because that's what they always do. The point is- In high stress situations, people fall back on what they've done in their training again and again.

Or, as G.J.N. Nam Hyong used to say to us, "You only get better at what you practice right."

Having said all that, let me describe my dilemma and maybe unify some of the threads I have running: Having trained extensively with firearms and other martial arts over the last 20 years or so, I find that my changing spiritual values have led me to a gentler approach, thus my involvement in Aikido.

As I described in my thread, "I don't want to dismember my opponent." I am hopeful of finding ways to neutralize violence without causing even a deadly opponent any permanent damage. Protecting Uke, as it were.

So if it's possible to replace a katana in a "practical" situation with a less lethal version, how does one go about it? If you're me, you start by beginning a thread asking Japanese, Filipino and European weapon (that's PRIMARY weapon) experts their opinions.

Still conf00s3d? Me too! :crazy:

BTW: Yes, I know I have to figure the gun part out, too. But baby steps, for now.

thomas_dixon
01-03-2005, 09:48 PM
Yes, there are documented instances where trained police officers have done this in the midst of gunfire. Also, as another sad example, one officer had a gunman lean across the hood of the car he was behind and put a bullet in his head while he struggled to get the sixth round in his revolver. (As opposed to returning fire with the 4 or so he had loaded.)

I could go on and on about people who are shot while pocketing their empty mags instead of dropping them because that's what they always do. The point is- In high stress situations, people fall back on what they've done in their training again and again.

Or, as G.J.N. Nam Hyong used to say to us, "You only get better at what you practice right."

Having said all that, let me describe my dilemma and maybe unify some of the threads I have running: Having trained extensively with firearms and other martial arts over the last 20 years or so, I find that my changing spiritual values have led me to a gentler approach, thus my involvement in Aikido.

As I described in my thread, "I don't want to dismember my opponent." I am hopeful of finding ways to neutralize violence without causing even a deadly opponent any permanent damage. Protecting Uke, as it were.

So if it's possible to replace a katana in a "practical" situation with a less lethal version, how does one go about it? If you're me, you start by beginning a thread asking Japanese, Filipino and European weapon (that's PRIMARY weapon) experts their opinions.

Still conf00s3d? Me too! :crazy:

BTW: Yes, I know I have to figure the gun part out, too. But baby steps, for now.

Using a Bokken isn't helping anyone. You can cause fractured/broken bones, damage vital organs, and severe internal hemmoraging, just as with any blunt instrument.

Your best bet to not hurting anyone would be to not use a weapon. Possibly a kubotan, but even that can cause damage.

Bill Danosky
01-04-2005, 01:01 PM
Thank you for your opinion. My best best to hurt someone least is my intention to do so. My dilemma is in finding an appropriate balance between protecting myself and protecting my opponent.

Without doubt, in this context, striking a person with a bokken is preferable to striking them with a shinken. My original thought was, "That's great, but what if 'the other guy' has a real sword?"

Now, I don't know what hypothetical situation I'm thinking of, but if I'm up against a Kali artist with their espada y daga kit out, or a Kenjutsu expert armed with a katana, I want more than a kubotan or nothing.

thomas_dixon
01-04-2005, 01:31 PM
Thank you for your opinion. My best best to hurt someone least is my intention to do so. My dilemma is in finding an appropriate balance between protecting myself and protecting my opponent.

Without doubt, in this context, striking a person with a bokken is preferable to striking them with a shinken. My original thought was, "That's great, but what if 'the other guy' has a real sword?"

Now, I don't know what hypothetical situation I'm thinking of, but if I'm up against a Kali artist with their espada y daga kit out, or a Kenjutsu expert armed with a katana, I want more than a kubotan or nothing.

That would be extremely hard. Especially if the other person is trying to kill you.

Bill Danosky
01-04-2005, 04:38 PM
Yep. I think I'd throw the kubotan and run!

My Shao Lama master had some tiger hooks that were very cool. Not sharp, but pretty heavy. I'm not a Kali or Kenjutsu expert, but even if I were I don't think I'd want to duel him with those things!

thomas_dixon
01-04-2005, 05:03 PM
Yep. I think I'd throw the kubotan and run!

My Shao Lama master had some tiger hooks that were very cool. Not sharp, but pretty heavy. I'm not a Kali or Kenjutsu expert, but even if I were I don't think I'd want to duel him with those things!

1) Agreed.

2) Yeap. Those hooks are pretty cool. But I still like the sound of Escrima (rattan) sticks getting smacked together :)

oudbruin
01-04-2005, 09:58 PM
Kali vs Nihonto vs Euro live weaps-
Well- if it was mushashi vs cyrano and both had drawn i suspect the euro expert using a rapier would eventualy win out over the heaver, and somewhat slower katana-
Now lets suppost we had gustave and mushashi facing off and gustave has a flambarge (a 5 foot weap used to take out horses)- the edge would go to the faster drawn katana.
as for our filipino friend with his short sticks-I suspect he could wail away on cyrano's lighter weapon, however a heavy weapon like a claidghmhor or flambarge-no contest, the heaver weapon woud win.
In a situation where both the euro and the nihonto both have to be drawn- the katana would win hands down-no question simply because the weapon as it's drawn is in offensive mode- wheras the european weap has to be drawn out, and than readied to strike- 3 motions vs one slash.
The guy with the sticks-whould have an edge out of the box, simply because he has nothing to draw out.
--
of more interest would be who is the better archer a 14th century english longbowman or a japanese kuyodo bowman of the 17th century? both had longbows with heavy draw weight (i understand in excess of 100 lbs), and both had somewhat equivalent projectiles and rate of fire and accuracy..
Comments? Anyone??
--
Best

Matt Molloy
01-05-2005, 03:20 AM
:D

I once trained with the Hozin-ryu guys. 12 foot spears - there was a reason that naginata went out of fashion.

Point beats edge. Fair play mate. Apparently that's why the British Army use bayonets.

:)

Still like swords and naginata though. ;)

Cheers,

Matt.

Matt Molloy
01-05-2005, 03:26 AM
Without doubt, in this context, striking a person with a bokken is preferable to striking them with a shinken. My original thought was, "That's great, but what if 'the other guy' has a real sword?"

Now, I don't know what hypothetical situation I'm thinking of, but if I'm up against a Kali artist with their espada y daga kit out, or a Kenjutsu expert armed with a katana, I want more than a kubotan or nothing.

Or you could move out of the neighbourhood if people are going around with that kind of kit. :rolleyes:

Welcome to Sword City!

You'd be amazed at the amount of times I'm walking down an alleyway and an assortment of ninjas, kalistas, BJJers, catch wrestlers and other highly skilled martial artists DON'T come back flipping towards me demanding that I fight for the honour of my clan etc..... :D

Cheers,

Matt.

xuzen
01-05-2005, 03:35 AM
<snip...>
of more interest would be who is the better archer a 14th century english longbowman or a japanese kuyodo bowman of the 17th century? both had longbows with heavy draw weight (i understand in excess of 100 lbs), and both had somewhat equivalent projectiles and rate of fire and accuracy..
Comments? Anyone??
--
Best

Not sure, but both will lose to a Mongolian mounted archer who has the accuracy to hit and speed to gallop away for second offensive or third... fourth... fifth... et cetera.

Boon.

thomas_dixon
01-05-2005, 08:21 AM
as for our filipino friend with his short sticks-I suspect he could wail away on cyrano's lighter weapon, however a heavy weapon like a claidghmhor or flambarge-no contest, the heaver weapon woud win.
In a situation where both the euro and the nihonto both have to be drawn- the katana would win hands down-no question simply because the weapon as it's drawn is in offensive mode- wheras the european weap has to be drawn out, and than readied to strike- 3 motions vs one slash.
The guy with the sticks-whould have an edge out of the box, simply because he has nothing to draw out.
--

Comments? Anyone??
--
Best

This is an old, and tiresome stereotype. FMAs are not just stick fighting. The sticks are there to represent Medium blade, or Machetes. The targets in stickfighting, and simulating the sticks as blade are very different.

Antique Visayan Machete:

http://therionarms.com/antiques/therionarms_c405e.jpg

Espada y Daga set:

http://mightyleonidas.brinkster.net/miscitems/espadaydaga.jpg

Bill Danosky
01-05-2005, 10:59 AM
Those are some particularly wicked implements, Thomas!

I know this is twisting the thread a little, but who out there has some experience with Jutte or Sai? That is maybe closer to what I'm fishing for.

I'm trying to replace my Cold Steel S.F. shovel and M1918 Knuckle knife as melee weapons.

thomas_dixon
01-05-2005, 01:21 PM
Why not just carry a knife?

Bill Danosky
01-05-2005, 04:53 PM
I do- a Benchmade "Spike". But I'd never cut anyone with it on purpose. I figure if anybody wants to knife fight with me, I'll use theirs if I need one. ;)

thomas_dixon
01-05-2005, 07:52 PM
Have you ever sparred with small knife?

Adramalek
01-05-2005, 11:35 PM
Billy ... as part of our curriculum,.. evileyes . sai is teach, BUT... it can never replace a knife, I recommend for you the old British commando type....... and this is why:
1. weight-is fairly light and easily drawn
2.All (Cuchillo) drills from Kali apply,... plus since is double edge, the parry cut combinations tend to be faster than with a (Daga)
3.it's weight is well distributed,.... so is also good to practice throwing maneuvers, and we use it as part of (Shurikenjutsu) training,and for H2H students
4.it's thin blade is ideal for stabbing drills,... and we found out in Ft. Benin GA, that can easily penetrate the front and sides of the ARMY issue body armor, (Not the porcelain plate of curse)
5.is pretty concealable and hilly durable
6.if you get one with a full serrated blade,.... you are (cocking)...... ......and get one for me for Three Kings day!!!!!!!
NOW lets talk about the Jitte and the Sai: it can be thrown, if sharpen it also can be used as a good stabbing weapon, its main use is as parry, block and locking weapon,.... and its weight makes it a good hitting weapon also,....... but the speed factor is jeopardized because of its weight..... and that is one of the most decisive factors in sharp edge weapons usage,....... against a properly train knife fighter... IE: Espada y Daga, Tantojutsu, Kali and Machete, Indonesian Daggers, (Curvas) Gypsy Knife, ext. your parry or block and lock will probably come to late..... the use of these weapon was mostly, as an arresting tool,..... wile one person on the side, of the one to be arrested was telling him to drop his weapon,....... the other with Sai or Jitte, came close to the arrestee's sword side,.... to,... in case of an attempt to draw,...... catch the sword before it was completely drawn,,,,,,,, in combat,... usually it was use to assist a a fellow soldier, or master that was currently engaged........ but only in rare occasions,... used as primary weapon.
The Evil Ways Are Not Over Yet evileyes

Bill Danosky
01-06-2005, 10:10 AM
Thomas, you mean small as in "the death of a thousand cuts" knife? I couldn't say I have actually sparred with knives, but I have done some with paint markers to simulate it. Admittedly, we were all hacks, but we did quite often use this for drills at one time.

Dave, thanks so much for your input. That was exactly the kind of feedback I was hoping for. I think my evil ways ARE over, though, so this is why I'm looking for more defensive weapons which hopefully can hold their own against major, offensive hand weapons.

I have been poked rather hard with a sai before and even with the blunted end it's no party. I thought that would make it or jutte a good choice for thrusting, striking and blocking/parrying. As someone has said before, I think the targets would be different in this kind of exercise- probably wrists, collar bones, pressure points, etc. Arresting is actually more in the nature of what I'm thinking of.

A retired cop I know who is now a Hapkido instructor has some good short stick manipulations that one could probably work into their Jutte repertiore. Isn't short-stick F.M.A?

Bronson
01-06-2005, 12:05 PM
Bill,

You should get a hooked cane and play with it and see what you can come up with. You can take them anywhere, even in airports, so you could always have it with you. After all, no matter how good you are with a bokken it's useless if it's not with you.

Bronson

thomas_dixon
01-06-2005, 03:09 PM
Thomas, you mean small as in "the death of a thousand cuts" knife? I couldn't say I have actually sparred with knives, but I have done some with paint markers to simulate it. Admittedly, we were all hacks, but we did quite often use this for drills at one time.

Dave, thanks so much for your input. That was exactly the kind of feedback I was hoping for. I think my evil ways ARE over, though, so this is why I'm looking for more defensive weapons which hopefully can hold their own against major, offensive hand weapons.

I have been poked rather hard with a sai before and even with the blunted end it's no party. I thought that would make it or jutte a good choice for thrusting, striking and blocking/parrying. As someone has said before, I think the targets would be different in this kind of exercise- probably wrists, collar bones, pressure points, etc. Arresting is actually more in the nature of what I'm thinking of.

A retired cop I know who is now a Hapkido instructor has some good short stick manipulations that one could probably work into their Jutte repertiore. Isn't short-stick F.M.A?

I meant, have you ever tried a knife disarm? It's pretty difficult.

I guess one would say short stick is FMA...the sticks are 24"-31" long. but we also do Jo and Staff

Adramalek
01-06-2005, 10:03 PM
Billy.... the small stick is called Yawara, or if it doesn't have rounded type ends,.... its usually called Yubibo or (finger stick)..... it should be 2" longer than the palm of your hand, its techniques can be used, instead than with a stick,.... an iron rod of same proportions,.. with the added bonus than when a fist is made with it, the hit fills like getting struck by a hammer..... since you know Hapkido, all moves can be reinforced by this rod,..... that can be attach to you keys, in case of travel the wooden incarnation can be used.... in case of a more aggressive approach,.... the points can be sharpen, or nails in the case of wood, can be drove in an angle,... leaving the sharp ends exposed....... the drills for yawara are similar to those of a knife,... taking in consideration the fact, that you will be using a different angle of motion, more directed at stabbing type techniques......... NOW......... about your quest of using offensive weapons, that as you said... (hopefully,... will hold their own, against major offensive ones)....... only in cases of people properly learning weapons like Jo, Bo or Hanbo,... because of the reach factor,... but smaller like Sai, Jutte or Yawara you will have to devote an incredible amount of time in practice,... and study of body motions of other styles that dealt with the most probable weapons that you may encounter... plus deep research of the most possible encounters themselves..... and even then,..... you may come up short.... so maybe a cane, will be the answer for you,... if you want to really do this defensive weapon thing... BUT still... it will be very up hill for you,... against a properly train individual, so do some research on the web under names like :
1. Robert Bussy : Hambo or Small Staff

2. Paul Vunak: Knife and Kali Sticks

3. Geijin Ryu Ninjutsu: Tactics applied to urban environment ext.

Tha Snake Hopes That Your New Approach Works

in any case move to Canada :D the medical plans are much better there ;) (in case your new approach doesn't work pimp daddy) evileyes Good Luck Bill but please don't let the freaking Bride Kill You This Time Partner!!!! :D ;) :D :confused: :confused: :grr: evileyes

Joezer M.
01-07-2005, 12:52 AM
Two interesting articles about Japanese vs European swordarts:
http://www.thearma.org/essays/knightvs.htm
http://www.thearma.org/essays/katanavs.htm

Regards,
Joezer

xuzen
01-07-2005, 12:57 AM
[QUOTE=Thomas Dixon]
Antique Visayan Machete:

http://therionarms.com/antiques/therionarms_c405e.jpg

Hey this looks so much like what my gardener use to clear our nearby bush? Maybe he is a top notch Kali master incognito?

thomas_dixon
01-07-2005, 10:06 AM
[QUOTE=Thomas Dixon]
Antique Visayan Machete:

http://therionarms.com/antiques/therionarms_c405e.jpg

Hey this looks so much like what my gardener use to clear our nearby bush? Maybe he is a top notch Kali master incognito?

Maybe. But some mass produced Machetes are made to mimic Machetes used in Southeast Asia. Like the "Bolo" Machetes you can find at Lowes, etc. are made to mimic Bolos.

dan guthrie
01-07-2005, 10:10 AM
<

Not sure, but both will lose to a Mongolian mounted archer who has the accuracy to hit and speed to gallop away for second offensive or third... fourth... fifth... et cetera.

Boon.
I think the advantage for any of the these shooting arts would go to the ones used for hunting and war. The English longbowman and Mongolian archer shot at moving targets on a much more regular basis. If they missed they went hungry.
The longbow is better at distance than the Mongolian short bow so if they're standing I think the Welsh/Brits win. Even if you put the Huns on horseback they'd have a hard time getting within shooting distance, in my humble opinion.
Additionally, archers were instrumental in English victories against armored French Kaniggets. I don't think there are any equivalent Japanese archery victories like Agincourt, Poitiers or Crecy (sp?).
The English massed their archers as a separate unit. Did the Japanese?

thomas_dixon
01-07-2005, 10:18 AM
I think the advantage for any of the these shooting arts would go to the ones used for hunting and war. The English longbowman and Mongolian archer shot at moving targets on a much more regular basis. If they missed they went hungry.
The longbow is better at distance than the Mongolian short bow so if they're standing I think the Welsh/Brits win. Even if you put the Huns on horseback they'd have a hard time getting within shooting distance, in my humble opinion.
Additionally, archers were instrumental in English victories against armored French Kaniggets. I don't think there are any equivalent Japanese archery victories like Agincourt, Poitiers or Crecy (sp?).
The English massed their archers as a separate unit. Did the Japanese?

Yes. And it is even a martial art. The Japanese have (had) the longest long bow in the world, at 7'. Japanese archers were very skilled, because that was their life.

xuzen
01-07-2005, 08:31 PM
Maybe. But some mass produced Machetes are made to mimic Machetes used in Southeast Asia. Like the "Bolo" Machetes you can find at Lowes, etc. are made to mimic Bolos.

Ah right. But then I live in South East Asia. I used to have one of the machetes that also looked like the pix above when I was in the boys scout and was she was always with me especially during my jungle hike and camping activities. It is called Parang pronunced Phar-Rang. Didn't know it was considered exotic. Sh@t, don't know where I have stored that sucker.

She was especially good for clearing a path through the thick undergrowth.

Boon.

thomas_dixon
01-07-2005, 09:11 PM
Ah right. But then I live in South East Asia. I used to have one of the machetes that also looked like the pix above when I was in the boys scout and was she was always with me especially during my jungle hike and camping activities. It is called Parang pronunced Phar-Rang. Didn't know it was considered exotic. Sh@t, don't know where I have stored that sucker.

She was especially good for clearing a path through the thick undergrowth.

Boon.

Oh, ok then. It probably was one of those. They're nice. They can cost about $170 for a real handmade one here in the US, imported from Indonesia, etc.

Bill Danosky
01-08-2005, 01:22 PM
Man, this is some pretty good stuff, huh?

I like the cane idea. I think the late Micheal Echanis was known for his evileyes evil ways evileyes and he thought a cane was the best invention ever.

thomas_dixon
01-08-2005, 03:22 PM
get a cane with a sword in it...mwuahahaha...

PeterR
01-09-2005, 04:27 AM
Yes. And it is even a martial art. The Japanese have (had) the longest long bow in the world, at 7'. Japanese archers were very skilled, because that was their life.
I don't think the 7' bow was used on the battle field - those used by mounted archers were smaller. English archers did use the long bow for very good effect on the battle field.

Bill Danosky
01-09-2005, 10:16 AM
I think I'm going back to something Peter R. said about using a bokken as a bokken and not a sword.

This makes a little more sense to me having now emerged from the other end of this intellectual process. Since I am an Aikido practitioner, I'm often using a bokken and virtually never a live blade. I see how this eliminates the danger of katana-related accidents OR intentional injuries.

As we frequently practice jo and bokken, I can apply some jo techniques to the bokken and probably have some very serviceable budo. Plus, that leaves me with plenty of application options for canes, sticks, mop handles and whatever kinds of improvised weaponry are around.

Now I have to practice that with some of you Kali, Fencing and Kendo guys (and gals, of course) to make sure I'm getting my reality checked. I'm sure that will give me a few satora. :uch:

thomas_dixon
01-09-2005, 12:15 PM
I think I'm going back to something Peter R. said about using a bokken as a bokken and not a sword.

This makes a little more sense to me having now emerged from the other end of this intellectual process. Since I am an Aikido practitioner, I'm often using a bokken and virtually never a live blade. I see how this eliminates the danger of katana-related accidents OR intentional injuries.

As we frequently practice jo and bokken, I can apply some jo techniques to the bokken and probably have some very serviceable budo. Plus, that leaves me with plenty of application options for canes, sticks, mop handles and whatever kinds of improvised weaponry are around.

Now I have to practice that with some of you Kali, Fencing and Kendo guys (and gals, of course) to make sure I'm getting my reality checked. I'm sure that will give me a few satora. :uch:

Good idea. Take up some Blade classes, preferably something not point oriented....lol

I don't think the 7' bow was used on the battle field - those used by mounted archers were smaller. English archers did use the long bow for very good effect on the battle field.

Yes they were. :)

PeterR
01-10-2005, 01:53 AM
Yes they were. :)
You are right - checked last night. Forgot about the short end.

xuzen
01-10-2005, 02:41 AM
Dear History Buffs,

With respect to advocates of English Longbow superiority, I have some information that may dispel that notion. I got this information from Discovery channel from their "Unsolved History"segment. Specifically the program was trying to dispel the notion that it was not the English longbow that cause the defeat of the French Forces at Agincourt. And I believe they were quite convincing with their theory.

1) Some University Historian were able to measure the average force of impact of english arrow shot from the English Longbow. Then they reconstruct such force and hit them using modern calibrated machinery on armoury from that time. The force generated was not even close to piercing the french armour.

So what cause the downfall of the French Forces? They are:

a) Natural Terrain
Just prior to battle day, it rained and the ground was soaked and muddy. The English forces consisted mainly of peasants foot soldier with little armour whereas the French were out in their finest battle regalia (heavy plate armour). Hence The mobility of the French Forces were severely hampered making them sitting ducks for the swift and light english forces. The French death were just as much accredited to being trampled by their own kins when they got stuck in the mud. Some drown when their heavy armour becomes imbedded in the waterloged ground. In a sense it was their heavy armour that cause the downfall.

b) Attitude
The English were peasants footsoldier whereas the French side made up of mainly nobility. In those days, when the nobility go to war, one of their main incentive for war is to capture an enemy lord alive for ransom to enrich themselve. It must have been a dissapointment when the French find out that there were little incentive to fight for that day.

This what I remember from the program. There are more factors that caused the defeat of the French forces, but the two above is what I remembered most.

Boon.

dan guthrie
01-10-2005, 10:06 AM
Dear History Buffs,

With respect to advocates of English Longbow superiority, I have some information that may dispel that notion. I got this information from Discovery channel from their "Unsolved History"segment. Specifically the program was trying to dispel the notion that it was not the English longbow that cause the defeat of the French Forces at Agincourt. And I believe they were quite convincing with their theory.

1) Some University Historian were able to measure the average force of impact of english arrow shot from the English Longbow. Then they reconstruct such force and hit them using modern calibrated machinery on armoury from that time. The force generated was not even close to piercing the french armour.

So what cause the downfall of the French Forces? They are:

a) Natural Terrain
Just prior to battle day, it rained and the ground was soaked and muddy. The English forces consisted mainly of peasants foot soldier with little armour whereas the French were out in their finest battle regalia (heavy plate armour). Hence The mobility of the French Forces were severely hampered making them sitting ducks for the swift and light english forces. The French death were just as much accredited to being trampled by their own kins when they got stuck in the mud. Some drown when their heavy armour becomes imbedded in the waterloged ground. In a sense it was their heavy armour that cause the downfall.

b) Attitude
The English were peasants footsoldier whereas the French side made up of mainly nobility. In those days, when the nobility go to war, one of their main incentive for war is to capture an enemy lord alive for ransom to enrich themselve. It must have been a dissapointment when the French find out that there were little incentive to fight for that day.

This what I remember from the program. There are more factors that caused the defeat of the French forces, but the two above is what I remembered most.

Boon.

Thanks, it still makes a good story, though. :) The "crowd" control aspect makes a lot more sense. I do think the archers were good enough to find the chinks in armor at close range but then they could have been armed with any kind of bow.
So it's still the archer not the bow. I do know, from playing the PC gave "Medieval, Total War," they also had war hammers and short swords.

I also remember, and Shakespeare put some spin on "Henry V," the English slaughtered their French prisoners after Agincourt. In spite of the potential fortune in ransom there were so many POWs the English knew they couldn't keep them under control until ransom was paid.

Bronson
01-10-2005, 04:30 PM
Boon,

You wouldn't happen to remember what type of arrow heads they were using in their test to do you? If I remember correctly the English had poor luck in penetrating armor until they switched to what is called a Bodkin arrow head. It's a very narrow very pointed arrow head that is just big enough to allow the shaft to pass through the hole it makes. Once they switched to those the arrows would zip right through plate armor.

Found some stuff HERE (http://yarchive.net/metal/arrowheads.html) and HERE (http://margo.student.utwente.nl/sagi/artikel/longbow/longbow2.html) (the second link has a picture of different types of arrow heads)

Bronson