Aikido Frauds

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[aikidoc]

I have noticed recently there seems to be a quite a few aikido frauds cropping up in various places and some are being exposed by various forums. This seems to be increasing. By frauds, I categorize them "aikido frauds" based on the following criteria:

1. Lofty ranks awarded by organizations that cannot be identified or located. Lots of 6th to 10th dans (usually the person is in their 40s).
2. Start their own "style" of aikido with weak credentials to do so. Usually no traceable lineage. Many have never held higher than 3rd dan in a legitimate organization.
3. Organization sites which have dubious, non-verifiable rank histories or questionable promotions.
4. Promotions and styles are often sanctioned by dubious Soke Organizations which frequently sell their ranks. They say they don't award ranks just document earned ranks.
5. Websites frequently have dubious claims about their skills or they have studied under masters that no one has heard of or can verify.

How do we stop this from happening? I don't have answers and don't know if we really can. My concern is we are going to end up with a public being duped and legitimate aikido ranks will be watered down. Many times the new student public does not have the experience or knowledge to see through the bovine feces. They see the 10th dan or 5th to 6th dan and don't have the knowledge to realize they are bogus degrees.

I am concerned this will end up causing some of the same things that have happened to some of the other martial arts where rank is so bogus in most groups that it has little meaning and has destroyed the credibility of the art. Such hucksters often prey on the popular arts with impunity. We now seem to be fair game.

[aikidoc]

Oh, I'd also add the following:

6. Aikido ranks being awarded by non-aikido organizations: karate for example.

[akiy]

Hi folks,

I just wanted to intervene here and ask that no specific names nor information that can be pointed towards any specific individual/organization/etc be discussed in this thread. Thank you.

-- Jun

[aikidoc]

No problem.

[Jorge Garcia]

I guess that the old adage, "may the buyer beware" needs to be in place here. New people need to do some research and ask questions but I would think that good research comes first. Unfortunately, in every field, that is the problem. Car dealers dupe millions of people every year by taking the customer into the finance office to buy the vehicle. In fact, the dealer will never try to give you the best deal on the financing. If you want that, you have to get the financing through an outside company that will work for you.. The dealer works for himself. The finance man gets his commission off of any additional products he can sell so they are highly motivated to add stuff on. Only research will reveal that. I was cheated for years because I was too lazy to do the research. The martial arts public feeds the problem by not doing their homework. As aikido becomes more popular, this may be a trend. I know one dojo where the instructor is now offering his own ranks. He did so after realizing that every one coming through the door didn't know who the Hombu Dojo was until he told them. At some point, he decided to keep the money he was sending to the Main Headquarters for himself which was all legal and proper. The ethical problem is that he is taking advantage of the public's ignorance because they don't realize that his certificates aren't as valuable as the ones from the Hombu. We can fight it at least by educating the people who come to check out our dojos on what they should look for in a martial arts school.
Best wishes,

[David Humm]

<gets can opener out>

There is unfortunatly nothing physical that can be done to "prevent" the fraudsters.

Exposure on the other hand is something that can be undertaken but, this must not be done without forethought for one's own reputation which I can assure all of you, if you decided to expose a person whom you have evidence of their fraudulent activities; you yourself will suffer a denting of your own reputation as the "defenders" of the supposed fraudster counter attack your and I quote...

"Campain" "Victimisation" "Un-aiki" "You do not know the meaning of Aiki" exposé.

Only comit yourself if you have the courage of your convictions to stand tall when many will critisise your actions.

Dave

[David Humm]

Oh and before I get slated AGAIN - I won't post further on this subject.

Anyone wishing to PM me however is very welcome to do so.

Witch-finder sorry I meant Dave

[aikidoc]

I suppose exposing them also has the risks of legal action.

Jorge's points are good. How do you tell it is a good aikido dojo?

Here are some of my thoughts.
1. Verifiable rank: You can verify the rank with a legitimate (maybe mainstream is a better term) aikido organization with a direct lineage to O'Sensei. And that does not mean studying at a weekend seminar with a person with a link to O'Sensei). The sensei should not be offended by you checking them out. Why should they have anything to hide?
2. The instructor should be willing to post his rank certificates in the dojo and explain where they came from and who awarded them. Where's the lineage? The lineage should also be from legitimate instructors authorized to issue rank-not karate organizations or soke organizations who will do it for the money.
3. The instructor does not make outlandish claims-humility is the mark of a good aikido instructor not one with an ego a mile high bragging about all he/she can do-like cutting paper or moving people with ki.
4. Willingness of the instructor to allow students to attend seminars. This is a real red flag. Questionable instructors often don't want their students to go to seminars especially with quality shihans since the student might see reality.
5. Check around-watch some aikido tapes, read some forums and then watch a class. If it looks strange it probably is strange.

Can anyone add some more to this?

[John Boswell]

Two thoughts:

1) Aikido FAQ. This is an excellent source that new-comers to aikido need to be refered to. It is quite through and answers most questions, but takes a while to get through. I remember when I first looked into aikido 3 years ago, I spent a week just reading everything on this web-site and STILL never covered it all.

2) A "Caution" sign in dojos. Members of bone fide organizations could come up with a poster/sign that explains who/what they are, what affiliation they are with. Have a second paragraph that explains that many styles of aikido are out there and that there are also "schools" that are not legitimate... that the students should feel encouraged to ask question. AND, where the asking of questions is not welcomed, that this should be taken as a sign to keep looking.

Just my 2 cents. ;)

[Michael Hackett]

Educating the walk-in student is difficult at best. Many, if not most, walk in to a dojo after seeing a movie or a Discovery Channel program and have an interest in learning the art they just witnessed. They have no idea where the art came from, how it developed, what it represents, or how difficult it is to achieve any level of competence. Most also seem to have the belief that a "black belt" represents mastery of the art and that is the endpoint of study.

I think it's important to educate potential students when they arrive to a certain point. In our dojo, Sensei receives many telephone calls from potential "Never Trained Before" students. His standard litany is to invite them to the dojo to watch a few classes and talk with him. If they do so, they at least have some idea of what they are getting into.

A friend of mine was teaching karate several years ago and a guy came in and asked how long and how much it would cost to get a black belt. The school up the street told him that they would guarantee him his black belt in one year for $2000. My friend told him that he would award him a black belt that day for $100, and then went on to say that no one would recognize it, he wouldn't be able to teach, he'd get his butt kicked in tournaments, and he wouldn't know anything, but he would have a black belt. He told the student that it wouldn't be any worse off martially, and would save a year and $1900. After a few minutes of discussion, the prospective student decided to actually study with him and earn his rankings. From what I was told, the guy studied a year or so and then dropped out due to lack of interest.

I don't know that you will ever eliminate the frauds, but you can influence those you come in contact with by giving a few minutes of education and straight talk.

[Bronson]

When I receive enquiries I now also invite people to check us out through independant sources. I supply the url's for both AikiWeb and E-budo and encourage them to ask questions about me, my sensei, the dojo, and organization. I also encourage new students to check out the other teachers in town. I tend to agree that when someone doesn't want you to see other classes it smacks of shadiness.

1. Verifiable rank: You can verify the rank with a legitimate (maybe mainstream is a better term) aikido organization

Hmmm, I don't know if I'd say mainstream. I don't think Seidokan is mainstream but I'd consider it a legitimate org. independant from Aikikai Hombu, I'm sure there are others.

Bronson

[bkedelen]

Each and every person who has a dubious heritage has to live with that fact every time they claim themselves as an authority. This is true whether the infringing party is falsely claiming to be a Navy Seal, Secret Government Agent, or Aikido Soke Level 20 Grand Master Of Flowers Ryu-ha Lord. It is not the responsibility of the rest of us to point out how ridiculous they look, as they are already painfully aware of it. Best to just not patronize their "studios" and proliferate educational material about the history of our art.

[mj]

You cannot get rid of fraud, or in this case 'questionable claims'.

Martial Arts are not a well covered subject, and minor branches such as Aikido and others remain totally unknown to most people except through chance or desire.

[kironin]

I suppose exposing them also has the risks of legal action.


Going around exposing them could be a tricky business in the US.
I post this only in the interest of helping someone who feels strongly enough about a local issue and has all the facts to back up their statements. There is an affordable way to make it expensive for someone to come after you with a lawsuit or to attempt to intimidate you with a lawsuit or other legal action. You can check out my website :
high quality legal service (http://www.prepaidlegal.com/hub/chocker)

This is my way of supporting my non-profit aikido and iaido programs.
Personally, I think everyone in the US every needs it as much as medical insurance.


That said, I really don't know what a good solution would be in the general case. It puts a lot of burden on legitimate teachers to police the local situation given the way thinks work in this country. I would hate to see the kind of regulations some other countries have imposed. That doesn't solve the problem either and brings up other problems.

When students walk in the door who are obviously shopping, I can't see telling them where not to go because they don't have any basis to value my opinion. I ask them in what part of the city they live and if they say they have been looking I ask where they have looked. If they are not joining up then, I encourage them to try a class and then I recommend to them other legitimate teachers in town nearest where they live. I try to keep it positive. If they have visited somewhere questionable, I try to get them to check out a legitimate school. As much as I would like it to be, I know we are not a fit for everyone.

I guess by John's criteria, I know of at least one fraud and some borderline fraudulent activity by some who should know better. Trying to deal with that would probably consume the time and energy I have for my own practice, teaching my students and supporting my organization.

The best it seems I can do is to help prospective students include a good sample of legitimate schools and encourage them to ask good questions and check out useful online sources. Arm them with a little information.

[csinca]

The "quality assurance" that some of you are looking for is going to be very difficult to achieve! This thread demonstrates some of the challenges...

1. We need to do something about these frauds ... but we can't actually name them or talk about them

2. A respectable sensei should prominantly display his rank and certification and be ready to talk about his lineage ... but be humble and not make claims

3. Of course everyone should visit multiple dojos and be on the lookout for "anything strange", but there is a rather lengthy thread at this very website debating the authenticity of "no touch throws". Now to a beginner, and apparently to a number of us that have experience; "no touch" techniques would fall into that "anything strange" category ...

Unfortunately, "martial arts" still carries an air of mystery to the general public and there will continue to be people to pray on that. If you really want to pursue some form of quality control, the "aikido establishment" whatever than may be, is going to have to be vocal about it. That includes naming names and getting specific. And then of course we are each going to in turn be thrown under the magnifying glass!

Chris

[Jorge Garcia]

John wrote ,
" 3. The instructor does not make outlandish claims-humility is the mark of a good aikido instructor not one with an ego a mile high bragging about all he/she can do-like cutting paper or moving people with ki.
4. Willingness of the instructor to allow students to attend seminars. This is a real red flag. Questionable instructors often don't want their students to go to seminars especially with quality shihans since the student might see reality."

I recently received an invitation from a group in a nearby city to give a three hour aikido seminar. They were an unaffiliated dojo with some instructors that had cross trained and created a composite martial art of sorts. They had looked at a book with aikido techniques in it and included about 10 aikido techniques into their repertoire but they had never seen Aikido done "live" or in person. Joel Molina, our instructor in Corpus Christi and I went. I started the seminar by asking the instructor to show me their techniques and he did them for me. I then went on to teach and to show them the way my teacher, Hiroshi Kato taught me to do those same techniques. After I got home, I received the following email from that instructor. I will give only the relevant portion.

It said," Dear Garcia Sensei and Molina Sensei, First of all, I and the rest of the crew in ________ would like to thank you both for your attendance at our Dojo this past Saturday.
I was humbled and in awe of the skill level Molina Sensei and you demonstrated for us. I have to tell you both that I feel that in good conscience I will not be able to transmit any Aikido techniques to my students in the future, as I feel I will be doing them, myself and the art a great disservice. I thought about this going home on Saturday and at great length at my home. I feel that if it is not taught correctly then it should not be taught. My competence in Jujitsu, Judo and Kyusho jitsu are well developed, but my Aikido leaves much to be desired. I take my task and calling as Sensei very seriously and in good conscience cannot teach something I have learned incorrectly.
Our arts are similar but so very different. There is such a great distance from learning Aikido third hand or from a book, as there is from learning it from an extremely qualified instructor who can transmit information correctly. I have done my students a great disservice and am deeply saddened by this to the point of tears, even as I write this. Watching you both at work was like observing graceful poetry in motion. Aikido lives in both of you very strongly and for that, as a brother in the arts I am truly grateful. The students in Corpus and Houston should count themselves privileged and blessed to have you both as their Sensei. I hope and pray that I may continue this journey and learn this beautiful art...May God bless you both as well as your families and students...."

I have to say that I was impressed with this instructor. I witnessed their exam for two black belt students in jujitsu and they were outstanding. Each candidate had a two hour exam and demonstrated the best martial arts has to offer. Here was at least one example of an independent unaffiliated dojo looking for truth and willing to face it when they found it. There was no pride or fear of letting their students see someone else.
Best wishes,

[frivolouspig]

Perhaps there should be a martial arts equivalent of ratemyteachers.com

[bkedelen]

I couldn't disagree with you more, Ryan. Rating teachers online is not only appallingly disrespectful, but reduces the entire community to an infantile popularity contest. What there should be are sites like Aikiweb where we can communicate in a civilized manner, and dojos where we can do battle with the flaws in our own character. There is no need for a venue to expose the flaws of others.

[csinca]

Jorge, thanks for sharing that letter. That is a great example of a sensei! Congratulations to you as well as you guys must be pretty good!

Chris

[aikidoc]

Personally, I don't have a problem with indepent dojos-I started my aikido in one but switched to the aikikai for the reason I wanted to be affiliated with the founding organization-that's just me. There are many independent dojos and organizations that split off the aikikai at some point. Although I think it is the aikikai's position that they are doing something other than aikido (not going to get into that debate on this thread) there are many that are very legitimate organizations. Why? Well, most of these break off senseis went to high ranks and trained many years before they split off to do their own thing-some with O'Sensei's blessings.

I also don't have a problem with people teaching mixed martial arts as long as they identify it as such and don't make outlandish claims and claims of rank that was self awarded or awarded by some bogus soke organization with no claim to any knowledge of aikido other than reading about it or seen a demonstration one time. Mixed martial arts are a popular thing and a lot of people like to pull in different things. I've done some other arts and when I show my students something that is not directly aikido I tell them where it comes from. I generally put an aikido flavor to whatever I show them but if it did not directly come from my aikido training I let them know.

I think overall this whole thing gives me the ethical heebie jeebies. I know a lot of it is ego and the feeling these guys have that they are better than they are ranked. However, the ethics end of it sucks. To me, it perpetuates a fraud and dishonors the art and the teachers and students who have dedicated years to its study. The unsuspecting public may go through years of training and thousands of dollars seeking training that is sub par or will not allow them to advance or be recognized other than by their own instructor. The publich will look at a "10th dan" and say wow he or she has to be better than the 4th dan or 5th dan because they are higher ranked. They have no way of knowing it is bogus. I know when I first started aikido right around the time of the split with Tohei and the formation of the Ki Society I had no clue there was other aikido out there.

[Charles Hill]

There is a guy in Tokyo who has a ki power/ ki breathing group and sells books and does seminars. In his promotional video and at his seminars he throws up to ten people by waving his hand at them. A friend of mine attended the seminar and was told that he only throws his top students because regular people cannot take such strong ki power.

This guy has seventh dan from the Aikikai Honbu dojo where he trained for a period of less than 10 years. I'm not so sure that "legitimate" ranks are all they are cracked up to be.

Charles Hill

[aikidoc]

The infamous no touch throw eh? Mass hypnosis is more like it. Of course, it is convenient to only throw your senior students using the ruse that no one can take the power. There's a "master" out in California that claims he can cut paper and move people with his ki. Of course, now he can't do it any more since he was injured in an auto accident. What are these people smoking? Heck. If I could figure out how to do that, I'd call up James Randi and make some money proving I could demonstrate telekinesis.

Although his rank may be legitimate it sounds like his ego got away from him or he's lost his mind and his students are enabling him.

[JayRhone]

I think the better part of the Aikido community can do it's part to de fraud the frauds is simply by teaching it's students the spirit of the art and being open and honest with the public. You know, explain the organization in aikido and answer questions. The general public can get informed by asking questions. The way to stop fraud is by both parties doing what they need to do. Aikido schools by being informative to the public and the public asking the questions they don't have the answers to. Wow, I just read that over and realized, I repeat myself alot. Oh, well it's late and I'm going to bed.

-Jay

[MaryKaye]

The difficulty with invoking lineage is that anyone can lie about lineage, and it's going to be *really* hard to educate the public to tell the difference between a legit organization and a fictional one. (I subscribe to a charity rating report, and one of the recurring patterns is bogus charities with names very similar to legit ones.)

One pleasing thing I learned when I started subscribing to this report is that I'd never given money to any of the organizations they downrated. I was looking for warning signs in the solicitations, and apparently always managed to spot them. Perhaps we would do better to focus public education efforts on things that people can observe for themselves when they visit a school:

--Is the teacher generally respectful of other styles and organizations, and open to his students studying elsewhere, or is he dismissive and disparaging? Will he let students attend seminars elsewhere? I know that there are legit schools which prefer their students not to cross-train, but even they should be willing to suggest comparison-shopping to complete newcomers.

--Do the claims sound too good to be true? I recently looked at a dojo website which said "We guarantee that you will not be injured." Common sense should suggest that where there's one unreasonable claim, there will be others.

--Does the sensei come across as trying to sell you something? Does he use high-pressure tactics, extravagent promises, etc? Does he ask for unreasonably long initial contracts or high initial expenses? In my experience, reputable schools start off with fairly modest dues (dollar amounts vary by area) and may increase the financial committment for senior students, but fly-by-night schools often want the money up front--for obvious reasons.

--Are the students relatively happy, confident, and open? Or do they seem afraid of their teacher or each other, demoralized, sullen, or secretive?

--Are you allowed to watch classes before signing up?

This is stuff that if people knew it, would help them with more than aikido; and I suspect it will weed out most of the questionable aikido schools pretty well. And it doesn't get into issues with legitimate and excellent independent dojo (I've visited several of these) the way that pure tests of lineage and/or organizational membership do.

It's a sad truth, though, that if someone is ripe to be scammed, someone will come along to scam him. (I lost $125 to a scammer who managed to catch me half an hour after I had all four wisdom teeth pulled. They have an amazing nose for vulnerability.) In some ways the best we can do is to run our own dojo with the utmost responsibility and honesty, and try to shine by contrast. We can't really protect the public from itself.

Mary Kaye

[aikidoc]

Legit vs. fake organizations are difficult to identify for the public. One "master" I encountered actually used the name of one of his students because it was Japanese to set up his organization so it sound more official.

Good comments Mary.

[Magnus Brown]

There's a site dedicated to exposing martial arts fraud http://www.bullshido.com

[PeterR]

And they are a joke in their own right.

Basically if you don't wrestle or do BJJ you are .... log on in and I am sure they'll tell you.

[David Humm]

The difficulty with invoking lineage is that anyone can lie about lineage, and it's going to be *really* hard to educate the public to tell the difference between a legit organization and a fictional one.

... Mary you have no idea how hard you've just hit the nail firmly on it's head.

Even with documentary proof, it's virtually impossible to convince those who simply don't want to listen to the truth.

Dave

[Magnus Brown]

Yeah I've been on the site (which is barely moderated) and they are mostly a bunch of one on one fighters and if you've got a thin skin you won't survive but at least they do name and shame the people who they think are fraudsters. And the only test seems to be one of proving your skills in a fight which doesn't seem like a bad premise for people who are claiming that they can fight. So if you ignore the crassness you can find out about teachers and schools, which you can't do here.

[L. Camejo]

Hey folks,

My personal preference for checking out fraudsters is the Bad Budo and Baffling Budo sections of E-Budo.com. A lot of the Instructors who post here on Aikiweb are also signed on there and like Aikiweb, one must show their real name when posting. I've also found that E-Budo folks carry a wealth and breadth of knowledge experience well outside the art of Aikido alone, which can give some alternative perspectives on things.

As far as stopping or thwarting fraudulent claims in Aikido goes, I've had to deal with some of that here, where the general awareness of Aikido is small among martial artists and pretty nonexistent outside that sphere. Because this is a small country, what we've been doing is trying to make ourselves more visible to the public so that what they know who we are and what we are doing and also give them an idea of what Aikido is supposed to look like. We also give general guidelines regarding the questions one should ask when visiting a dojo that claims to teach any martial art, especially Aikido.

I have come face to face with Aikido fraudsters here and when they meet me they often quickly change their story in a myriad of ways while in my presence (like claiming to teach some unknown school of Aikijutsu), so pinning them down is a bit difficult. I think the best way to fight misinformation in this case is to flood the environment with a lot more correct information and hope that those who really need that information listen to what is correct, or at least question things before deciding to train with these groups. The thing is, those who have nothing to hide will welcome pointed questions on things like lineage, training methods, affiliations etc.

Just my 2 cents.
LC:ai::ki:

[Mark Mueller]

Hmmm....a man grows up studying a variety of martial arts......breaks away from his primary teacher and develops his own interpretation and name for a "new" type of martial art....claims a spiritual connection that seems to many to be "divine" ,develops almost a cult-like following of disciples....claims the title of "O'Sensei" or Great Teacher.....sound familiar?

Don't get me wrong on this.....but there are some interesting parellels with other modern day martial artists that we label "frauds"


Maybe its all in the marketing................

[aikidoc]

Mark: I think there is a big difference in what O'Sensei did. He actually studied and gained teaching proficiency in the arts. Many of the fraudsters do just the opposite. They get bogus soke organizations to give them ranks far above what they have earned or legitimately trained to acquire. Also, some of them award themselves their own ranks based on bylaws of the organization they set up. As the SNL church lady used to say: How convenient. O'Sensei invested his whole life in the study of martial arts and development of aikido. These people are taking major short cuts and de-evolving the quality of the arts not contributing to them. I think this is an apples and oranges comparison.

[David Humm]

I think this is an apples and oranges comparison.Indeed, unfortunately however Joe Shmo doesn't know the difference.

One individual here in the UK (lol no... not the one everyone will assume) Publicly proclaimed on his website that he was...
"The only westerner to have ever been made a MASTER of aikido"

Thankfully that farcical statement was changed following a short email however; I did get a "visit" from a couple of his "boys" to my dojo... Classic entertainment value

[Mark Mueller]

"I think this is an apples and oranges comparison."

John, to a certain extent I agree...however lots of times these guys do invest a particular amount of effort into whatever martial art they start with.....Ego comes into play a lot of times and they think they have a better way......and to promote it they decide to embellish...i.e. "establishing the legend" before there is one....

"He actually studied and gained teaching proficiency in the arts."

If I read Stanly Pranin's stuff correctly O' Sensei was largely self-taught with the exception of Daito-Ryu...I have read some reference to Jukendo (sp) along with some bokken and staff....but no formal certificates or learning from an "established" authority or lineage. A lot of the "frauds" out there are largely self-taught......there are just a lot more ways now to "fraudulently legitimize" (how's that for an oxymoron!) your credentials.

and FWIW who gave O'Sensei his rankings in Aikido?....once again he created his own art and placed himself at the top...not as much difference as we might think....

[Jorge Garcia]

"who gave O'Sensei his rankings in Aikido?....once again he created his own art and placed himself at the top...not as much difference as we might think...."

O Sensei had the second highest teaching license issued by Sokaku Takeda (Kyoju Dari) and was authorized to teach on his behalf which in Daito Ryu is a rare honor. When he separated to form his own brand of Daito ryu or aikibudo, he became his own credential or as some like to say, "his technique spoke for itself". That's why his art has gone around the world. The frauds fool the gullible with inflated credentials. O Sensei never claimed to have what he didn't have and what he had was apparent to all. If a fraud tries to do what O Sensei did, he would eventually be exposed because as Abraham Lincoln said," You can fool some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you can not fool all of the people all of the time." There is a world of difference between O Sensei and the modern frauds.

[sunny liberti]

Even with documentary proof, it's virtually impossible to convince those who simply don't want to listen to the truth.You have no idea how hard *you've* just hit the nail firmly on it's head...

We're dealing with delusions and the strong desire people have to keep theirs.

My dad used to say that one should never tear down anyone's mental playhouse unless you can build them a better one. I think this is a perfect example of being able to do just that!

Legit aikido teachers are in prime position to build a better path for those who have already shown interest in aikido, but stumbled upon a crook. For those who are seeking delusion, we will never help them. They don't want it.

[jebel]

Aikido Soke Level 20 Grand Master Of Flowers Ryu-ha Lord.

LMAO :D

[kironin]

My dad used to say that one should never tear down anyone's mental playhouse unless you can build them a better one.


Okay, I guess, I did okay then. I visited a dojo when I first moved here and it resulted in practically getting a group thrown in my lap because the students realized their teacher wasn't any better than the 3rd kyu he had earned from a legitimate aikido organization. Just because he was wearing a black belt didn't keep his students from seeing through the deception when presented with a comparison. In the process of disillusionment, did lose some of the students, but those that stayed are strong. They had to start over.

Given he had students he had awarded a 2nd kyu to and they were starting to help teach classes, I try not to imagine what it would have evolved into in 5 more years. :rolleyes:

nipped it in the bud. :D

[Bronson]

I've noticed over time that many people who's first contact with martial arts is one of these frauds have a difficult time admitting they chose poorly when faced with genuine training.

We'll get people in who assume we're a rinky-dink facility because we don't have: contracts, fancy uniforms with patches all over them, high-priced dues, trophies everywhere, or the heads of our vanquished opponents displayed on pikes. Because their first experience had such things and the first experience always colors subsequent experiences we are judged through that lens. Some people can see it for what it is and they'll often join us for a while but others just can't get past the lack of hype.

Bronson

[Chris Li]

O Sensei had the second highest teaching license issued by Sokaku Takeda (Kyoju Dari) and was authorized to teach on his behalf which in Daito Ryu is a rare honor.

I'm not arguing against your point, but Sokaku Takeda gave kyoju dairi certification to some thirty people - so it wasn't all that rare after all.

Best,

Chris

[jonreading]

Ahhh. If only dojo raiding was still acceptable...

I see a comon thread of education running through many of these comments. I work hard to learn about aikido dojo in my area by attending class, talking to current (and former) students, attending seminars, and reading up on each dojo. I believe that education is the key to minimizing the damage of frauds. When potential students ask about other dojo, I answer questions truthfully and provide information to aid their choices; I do not make negative comments or participate in name bashing. I provide resources to gather additional information and send them on their way. I have a responsibility to provide information to assist a potential student in making a decision to join a dojo. The responsibility does not include making the decision, so I avoid comments that may taint a decision.

I made a similar comments in another thread about the quality of instruction, so I apologize if I sound like a broken record. We have a duty to uphold the quality of aikido, though sometimes that is not popular.

[aikidoc]

"but no formal certificates or learning from an "established" authority or lineage."

Besides the Daito-ryu credentials cited by Jorge, this comes from The Master Course: Best Aikido 2. p. 204 "Morihei continued his studies under Nakai even after he was discharged frm the army in 1906, and he was awarded a teachng license from Nakai's school, the Yagyu Ryu Goto Ha, signed by Grand Master Masanosuke Tsuboi, in 1908." "In March of 1913, Morihei received a first-level teachng license from Sokaku..." (Although "Aikido" states he received one in 1916). He also studied several jujitsu arts and even judo as well as the spear. So he had teaching certificates in at least two arts.

[Mark Mueller]

"An offshoot of the mainline school of Yagyu Shingan-ryu centered in Sendai in Miyagi Prefecture. Morihei UESHIBA trained in this art in Sakai near Osaka from c. 1903-1908. Ueshiba's practice began around the time he entered the army and continued after his discharge when he would periodically commute from Tanabe. The technical content of this school is unknown but certainly included jujutsu techniques and the study of various weapons. Records are unclear as to whether Ueshiba's direct teacher was Masanosuke Tsuboi or Masakatsu NAKAI. Ueshiba received a transmission scroll from this school in 1908 but the document bears no seals thus shedding doubt on its authenticity."

From Aikido Journal

http://www.aikidojournal.com/encyclopedia.php?entryID=230

[Jorge Garcia]

I'm not arguing against your point, but Sokaku Takeda gave kyoju dairi certification to some thirty people - so it wasn't all that rare after all.

Best,

Chris
Even with thirty, if you know anything about Daito ryu, it's certainly not a K Mart blue light special. Sokaku Takeda's enrollment books show he taught about thirty thousand people. I don't know how you do your math but in the world I live in, that's rare enough! :)

[Chris Li]

Even with thirty, if you know anything about Daito ryu, it's certainly not a K Mart blue light special. Sokaku Takeda's enrollment books show he taught about thirty thousand people. I don't know how you do your math but in the world I live in, that's rare enough! :)

The usual pattern would be that Takeda would breeze into town, have somebody (such as Yukiyoshi Sagawa, or his son Tokimune, who would travel with him) set up a local seminar and then move on to somewhere else. Everybody in the seminar would be required to sign his enrollment book. Most of the 30,0000 people in the books were therefore people who saw Takeda no more than once for a couple of hours. The number of students who actually studied with him over a number of years was really quite small, so 30 represents a fairly good percentage of them.

Best,

Chris

[rob_liberti]

As John Riggs and others explained very well, these frauds do a lot of damage to aikido. My opinion is that you have to ask yourself "what is best for aikido?" and do that. I fully believe in the the Ghandi saying "satya-grah" which means "protest for truth." You speak up without fear of the counter attacks from the supposed fraudster and their supporters (like Dave Humm was mentioning). What the heck was all of that "enter without fear" training for if you cannot apply it? Aikido is worth protecting! What's the big fear anyway? - I'm not running for aikido class president or king of the prom.

As far as the devil's advocate sub-thread here about O-sensei, didn't he welcome all challengers? I have to say that if some guy just announces he is self-taught, but he's got the stuff and welcomes all challengers well I have no problem with that.

Rob

[MaryKaye]

Given he had students he had awarded a 2nd kyu to and they were starting to help teach classes, I try not to imagine what it would have evolved into in 5 more years. :rolleyes:

nipped it in the bud. :D

I appreciate you may not want to answer this question, but I'm really curious on a technical level: what did this end up looking like? Was it sloppy-but-aikido-like or was it evolving into something else?

Mary Kaye

[DaveO]

We'll get people in who assume we're a rinky-dink facility because we don't have: .. the heads of our vanquished opponents displayed on pikes.
Bronson

You don't?!? What's wrong with you then? Not to have heads on pikes; why next you'll be saying you don't even brand yourselved for the shodan test anymore!
Geez; the MA is really getting soft nowadays! :disgust:
:D :D :D

[JayRhone]

I'm not arguing against your point, but Sokaku Takeda gave kyoju dairi certification to some thirty people - so it wasn't all that rare after all.

Hmmm. How many billions of people are there in the world? I dunno. But divide it by 30 and see the percentage of people in the world with these ceritifications. :freaky: Heheheheh. -Jay

[Don_Modesto]

FWIW who gave O'Sensei his rankings in Aikido?....once again he created his own art and placed himself at the top...not as much difference as we might think....

IIRC, founders and their progeny typically have no rank. This includes the 2nd and 3rd Doshu, too.

I'm not arguing against your point, but Sokaku Takeda gave kyoju dairi certification to some thirty people - so it wasn't all that rare after all.

Chris, wasn't kyoju dairi the highest rank Takeda gave at the time UM received it? Didn't Hisa, or someone around Hisa, talk Takeda into giving menkyo kaiden?

Thanks.

[kironin]

I appreciate you may not want to answer this question, but I'm really curious on a technical level: what did this end up looking like? Was it sloppy-but-aikido-like or was it evolving into something else?
Mary Kaye

technically not good mostly because the level of understanding about ukemi was not good.

They couldn't throw me. It's weird to think about it now because those same students are in such a different place now when I take ukemi for them. They definitely can throw me now. Back then I would just look at them and they would just look at me, I wasn't trying to stop them, there just wasn't anything in what they were doing that was close to correct and my balance was not taken etc.

my students tell the story much better because it made a big impact on them. I was just visiting.

where it would have gone I really can't say.

[Chris Li]

Chris, wasn't kyoju dairi the highest rank Takeda gave at the time UM received it? Didn't Hisa, or someone around Hisa, talk Takeda into giving menkyo kaiden?

Thanks.

Kyoju dairi is really a certification to teach rather than a rank itself. There really were no ranks at the time, just a traditional scroll based system which is not quite the same. Anyway, Ueshiba received Goshin'yo no te and Kaishaku Soden, which were the highest level scrolls that Takeda was giving out at the time. Takuma Hisa and Masao Tonedate (Asahi Shinbun) both got menkyo kaiden from Takeda, although Tonedate's seems to have been largely honorary. Kodo Horikawa's menkyo kaiden was apparently approved by Sokaku but actually issued by Tokimune after Sokaku's death.

Best,

Chris

[Lyle Laizure]

How do we stop this from happening?
I do not think this is possible as aikido has spread so quickly and there are so many different organizations and splintered groups. I know of an aikido sensei who also practices/teaches another martial art. This art is not very wide spread and is as far as I can find located in the state he lives, Hawaii. When a school opens and they claim to be teaching this other style, since it is very closely monitored teachers of this style know one another pretty well, so if the individual is not legit they are merely confronted and told not to advertise as such or face certain consequences. Meaning a serious spanking as I interpretted. So in short unless we go back to the day of dojo storming frauds will continue to pop up.

[Jorge Garcia]

The usual pattern would be that Takeda would breeze into town, have somebody (such as Yukiyoshi Sagawa, or his son Tokimune, who would travel with him) set up a local seminar and then move on to somewhere else. Everybody in the seminar would be required to sign his enrollment book. Most of the 30,0000 people in the books were therefore people who saw Takeda no more than once for a couple of hours. The number of students who actually studied with him over a number of years was really quite small, so 30 represents a fairly good percentage of them.

Best,

Chris

To know that for sure, you would have to know with some authority the actual amount. What was the number of people that were regular students of Takeda vs.the temporary students? Was it 20,000, 10,000, 5000, 1000, 500, 100, or less and can you give a source for this information?

[Chris Li]

To know that for sure, you would have to know with some authority the actual amount. What was the number of people that were regular students of Takeda vs.the temporary students? Was it 20,000, 10,000, 5000, 1000, 500, 100, or less and can you give a source for this information?

Well, he never had a dojo of his own, so 20,000 would be quite an unlikely number. You could check through the enrollment books and make lists, I suppose, but the fact that he had relatively few regular students is fairly well documented through interviews with his students and son, and by books like "Tomei na Chikara" (in Japanese), which gives a fairly good picture of what he was doing. If you think about it, 30 instructor level students is a fairly large number for anyone, but even more so for someone who never had their own dojo or any kind of established organization.

Best,

Chris

[Jorge Garcia]

Well, he never had a dojo of his own, so 20,000 would be quite an unlikely number. You could check through the enrollment books and make lists, I suppose, but the fact that he had relatively few regular students is fairly well documented through interviews with his students and son, and by books like "Tomei na Chikara" (in Japanese), which gives a fairly good picture of what he was doing. If you think about it, 30 instructor level students is a fairly large number for anyone, but even more so for someone who never had their own dojo or any kind of established organization.

Best,

Chris
When I made my original point, it was not that Sokaku Takeda rarely gave out the kyoju dairi but that in Daito ryu, it is a rare thing to have the kyoju dairi. I based my idea on the fact that Daito ryu is an art that takes decades to learn because of its comprehensiveness and that in light of that O Sensei couldn't be compared to the modern frauds who just set themselves up.. Your point seems to be that thirty instructors over the span of Sokaku's lifetime isn't that rare. Should then I rephrase and say that O Sensei studied Daito ryu and other martial arts over a 21 year span (albeit for short periods of time) and therefore may have put a little more into his art than the modern frauds?

[Jorge Garcia]

Well, he never had a dojo of his own, so 20,000 would be quite an unlikely number. You could check through the enrollment books and make lists, I suppose, but the fact that he had relatively few regular students is fairly well documented through interviews with his students and son, and by books like "Tomei na Chikara" (in Japanese), which gives a fairly good picture of what he was doing. If you think about it, 30 instructor level students is a fairly large number for anyone, but even more so for someone who never had their own dojo or any kind of established organization.

Best,

Chris


I just thought of another one. Could I say that O Sensei was different from the modern frauds in that he was a regular student of Sokaku Takeda which was a rare thing to be? :rolleyes:

[David Yap]

I have noticed recently there seems to be a quite a few aikido frauds cropping up in various places and some are being exposed by various forums. This seems to be increasing. By frauds, I categorize them "aikido frauds" based on the following criteria:

1. Lofty ranks awarded by organizations that cannot be identified or located. Lots of 6th to 10th dans (usually the person is in their 40s).
2. Start their own "style" of aikido with weak credentials to do so. Usually no traceable lineage. Many have never held higher than 3rd dan in a legitimate organization.
3. Organization sites which have dubious, non-verifiable rank histories or questionable promotions.
4. Promotions and styles are often sanctioned by dubious Soke Organizations which frequently sell their ranks. They say they don't award ranks just document earned ranks.
5. Websites frequently have dubious claims about their skills or they have studied under masters that no one has heard of or can verify... <snipped>.

Then again, potential students are also faced with "wannabe" aikido instructors in legitimate organizations. By "wannabes", I would categorize them in the following criteria:

1. Does not have the skills and attitude of a true aikido practitioner.
2. Has a low level of integration of the powers of mind and body.
3. Possess unharmonized combination of physical means and ethical motives - potential to cause injury.
4. Still cannot get rid of the (egotistical) mean streak - the will to cause injury is innate.

Surprisingly (or not), some of these "wannabes" hold high ranks (even shihan perhaps) from legitimate organizations and their individual list of injured students could be at least an arm long. The danger is "wannabes" are molded from "wannabes". I can't help wondering that O Sensei's mission of Aikido might have taken a wrong turn at some point in time. Will it come back to its rightful path is the critical question.

Just looking from another side of the coin.

Regards

David Y

[aikidoc]

Although your points are valid David, that strays from the thread.

[rob_liberti]

Maybe we can solve both problems. I think someone had the idea of coming up with a new copyrighted certification. I've been thinking about it and I'd be willing to video a class I taught and send it in to a review panel and/or visit a few places and demonstrate where I'm at in aikido every year or so. If there were suggestions on how to improve my technique or my teaching - I'd be willing to pay for those lessons and implement the changes as fast as I could. I'd be willing to have people visit for inspections or suprise inspections. What do you think? As long as people with fradulent rank are willing to do the same then I'd be fine with them. We can even come up with our own teacher ranking system where loyalty and teaching ability can be seperated out from tai jitsu proficency (- as opposed to the way it is now).

Rob

[aikidoc]

Interesting idea Rob but getting different organizations to agree on a standard is a problem. The instructor quality issue should be left in my opinion to the organization. If there is a bad or abusive instructor as David suggests, the organization has a repsonsibility to fix that problem. People are people.

So, here are some thoughts as I ponder this:
1. We could come up with a list of what generally identifies a legitimate aikido background/instructor and publicize it in our respective areas.
2. Re-implement dojo raids or challenges-too many legal issues here.
3. Hope the frauds get found out and just go away. Some get caught in their lies when their egos run away and get publically exposed. Unfortunately, not enough of them.
4. See if their is a way to get the Ueshiba family to copyright the term "Aikido" and then sue everyone who is not authorized to use it.
5. Encourage these frauds to rename their art excluding the word Aikido (I could go with this one).


Regarding number 1. Here are some thoughts on screening criteria for a legitimate aikidoka/instructor.
1. Must be certified/ranked at all levels by a recognized aikido organization that split off from the Ueshiba family and can trace a lineage: Ki Society, Yoshinkan, Tomiki, etc.
2. Ranks are in line with these organizations and not self awarded or awarded by groups with no one qualified to do so: soke organizations, karate organizations, etc.
3. Legitimate instructors should accurately document credentials on public media such as websites. This is not to be an ego thing but rather to establish credentials and accurately reflect what you have "earned". I know some don't like to do this especially at high ranks (opposite of what the fraudulent high ranks do) but not only should the rank be documented but when it was awarded and by whom or what organization. The rank should be verifiable through the organization. No excuses for certificates getting burned up in fires or awarded by someone nobody can find or some defunct organization. If you have legitimate credentials from a legitimate organization and it gets burned in a fire you can get it replaced. They should have a record of you anyway and it can be verified if you can't afford to replace it.
4. Senseis in legitimate dojos should be willing to display their rank certificates on a wall in the dojo if possible unless working in a YMCA or something like that. They should be willing to show and prove to students their rank and source without getting offended that someone asks. Usually, people with legitimate credentials do not have any problem with being asked to provide proof of their rank and its source-probably because they can.
5. Legitimate instructors should attempt to keep in contact and or at least know where their instructors are and actually should be able to name them. A good red flag is the instructor cannot remember who they studied with. If I earn a black belt with someone I should be able to remember their name-besides sensei:). Their instructors should actually be people that are living or who have lived in the past and that this is verifiable. In other words, given the ease of finding people with today's technology, I should be able to locate and if desired contact these people.

[aikidoc]

Another approach would be a red flag list. If you see some of the following, run, run, run:
1. Rank awarded by a soke organization, non-aikido organization or the individual themselves through an organizational charter.
2. Multiple high dan ranks. Generally, these are not verifiable. Sometimes they are from styles the person made up themself. Frequently they are awarded by soke groups.
3. High dan ranks for someone in their 30s or early 40s. There are very few 8th, 9th and 10 dans awarded in legitimate aikido organizations and in the aikikai apparently there are age requirements. The 40s does not qualify one for an 8th or 9th or 10th dan.
4. Vague websites. Websites that claim lots of awards but give little information. Generally the information is not verifiable when checked.
5. Outlandish claims. Some I've seen are: cutting paper and moving people with ki, claims of being the best (martial humility), and the one I love are references to doing secret work with the government (never verifiable of course). They'd probably have to kill you if they told you too much about this.
6. Claiming mastery of several arts with high ranks. One site I saw had the person claiming he mastered 40 arts and he was in his 40s. Impressive.
7. References in their bios about surpassing their instructors and being so good it was necessary to seek outside rank. Generally, these people may get to 3rd or 4th dan before they are being politically suppressed and must go on their own so as to be recognized for their true ability. I feel one of those sneezes coming on with a sound like a crass version of bovine feces.
8. Setting up their own style at a young age (30s-40s) without having achieved a high rank like 6th or 7th dan from a legitimate or verifiable organization.
9. Students that defend their skills to the death and refuse to recognize they have been duped.
10. Can't remember their senseis or don't know what happended to them. Or another is a made up Japanese name that no one can find ever existed.

Anyone think of any others?

[sunny liberti]

I'd like to add to this general discussion (over many threads) that it's a red flag to me when students (or teachers) get so up in arms and hostile over a question of legitimacy.

I can't in my wildest dreams imagine having the urge to come to my teacher's defense if someone called him a fraud. I love him dearly, but I (and anyone who's ever met him) wouldn't be able to breathe from laughing so hard. It wouldn't even register on the scale of what offends me.

I think those who get so hostile in response to a legitimacy question or accusation really know the truth about their "teacher" deep down. The questions or accusations cut too close to their bones.

[bkedelen]

Considering how long humans have been making illegitimate/fraudulent claims about martial arts (since we emerged from the diluvian waters), I am going to go out on a limb and say that these claims are not as harmful as we would like to believe. Just look at the incredible amount of misinformation about Chinese martial arts that was generated by kung-fu cinematography, yet many forms of wushu are alive and well in this and other countries. The only harm I can see is that unscrupulous peoples may be able to more aggressively advertise their mcDojo, taking business away from real dojos. If you run your dojo as a business you have to expect competition. Of course, athletic clubs and sports teams take business away as well, but there is no thread on how we can shut them down.

[Jorge Garcia]

Interesting idea Rob but getting different organizations to agree on a standard is a problem. The instructor quality issue should be left in my opinion to the organization. If there is a bad or abusive instructor as David suggests, the organization has a responsibility to fix that problem. People are people.

So, here are some thoughts as I ponder this:
1. We could come up with a list of what generally identifies a legitimate aikido background/instructor and publicize it in our respective areas.
2. Re-implement dojo raids or challenges-too many legal issues here.
3. Hope the frauds get found out and just go away. Some get caught in their lies when their egos run away and get publicly exposed. Unfortunately, not enough of them.
4. See if their is a way to get the Ueshiba family to copyright the term "Aikido" and then sue everyone who is not authorized to use it.
5. Encourage these frauds to rename their art excluding the word Aikido (I could go with this one).


Regarding number 1. Here are some thoughts on screening criteria for a legitimate aikidoka/instructor.
1. Must be certified/ranked at all levels by a recognized aikido organization that split off from the Ueshiba family and can trace a lineage: Ki Society, Yoshinkan, Tomiki, etc.
2. Ranks are in line with these organizations and not self awarded or awarded by groups with no one qualified to do so: soke organizations, karate organizations, etc.
3. Legitimate instructors should accurately document credentials on public media such as websites. This is not to be an ego thing but rather to establish credentials and accurately reflect what you have "earned". I know some don't like to do this especially at high ranks (opposite of what the fraudulent high ranks do) but not only should the rank be documented but when it was awarded and by whom or what organization. The rank should be verifiable through the organization. No excuses for certificates getting burned up in fires or awarded by someone nobody can find or some defunct organization. If you have legitimate credentials from a legitimate organization and it gets burned in a fire you can get it replaced. They should have a record of you anyway and it can be verified if you can't afford to replace it.
4. Senseis in legitimate dojos should be willing to display their rank certificates on a wall in the dojo if possible unless working in a YMCA or something like that. They should be willing to show and prove to students their rank and source without getting offended that someone asks. Usually, people with legitimate credentials do not have any problem with being asked to provide proof of their rank and its source-probably because they can.
5. Legitimate instructors should attempt to keep in contact and or at least know where their instructors are and actually should be able to name them. A good red flag is the instructor cannot remember who they studied with. If I earn a black belt with someone I should be able to remember their name-besides sensei:). Their instructors should actually be people that are living or who have lived in the past and that this is verifiable. In other words, given the ease of finding people with today's technology, I should be able to locate and if desired contact these people.

These are interesting ideas John. I was thinking of a real way to implement them and I realized there is something like this in the religious world. As you know, television evangelists have about the worst reputation because of the scandals and money issues. Years ago, a few of them headed by Billy Graham formed the Evangelical Council for Financial Accountability or ECFA. They set up a group to which ministries could join. The group has standards that every member must meet and they are audited and checked. Ministries then post the seal of the ECFA on their websites and literature indicating that they have been through a verification process and are legitimate and not charlatans. It's not a cure all because a lot of the public doesn't know about it but these guys have done good work and have made an impact. Someday, maybe someone could come up with a 501 (c) 3 like this for Aikido groups or maybe for all martial arts schools. Then you promote it and groups join it so they can display the seal of the group indicating they meet those standards. It helps educate the public too. You could get responsible and well known people on the Board of Directors. Their names would give the group some integrity and "gravitas". It's a big job and not a cure all but it would practically go along way toward solving the problem. The financing could be raised by small dues and the group could print brochures and contact major organizations etc. trying to get large groups of new members. The EFCA has been very successful using a format like this.
In religious circles, it is interesting to note which major ministries won't join ECFA. When you investigate, it's usually because the whole board is family or they pay themselves too much. That's the red flag the public is looking for.
Here's the website if you want to take a look at what they are doing. Could we do this for aikido or martial arts in general?
http://www.ecfa.org

[aikidoc]

I like that idea Jorge. If you could get the legitimate ones to join, then it would work nicely.

[rob_liberti]

This is in regards to the previous post by Benjamin Edelen.

Is the fact that there is generally no competition in aikido kind of a major factor in this equation? If you open up a "krotty" school and make credentials up, I think you have a much worse chance of getting away with it for too long.

It also hurts the legitimate schools because many perspective students in an area might get their (mis)information from one of the many duped students and former students.

...And if there is a health club in your area, you should try to get a satellite dojo in there!

Rob

[happysod]

Rank awarded by a soke organization, non-aikido organization or the individual themselves through an organizational charter. dammit I knew it, I'm a fraud! Twice over in fact! No, seriously, using this definition... I'll expand. (most recent example first) head of my old association left ki soc, wanted to still do ki so ended up under the umbrella of a martial arts organisation who covered several martial arts for insurance etc. i.e. not solely aikido - I graded under them hence my rank is fraudulent.

First time round was again a non-affiliated society who's auspices I think were the BAB, but I don't know (DaveH, as we found out, started in the same group, any idea of their then affiliation Dave?) - again, here I'm a potential fraud.

Sorry John, while I can understand your wishes for aikido not to be misrepresented, sometimes politics does get in the way of a nice lineage.

[rob_liberti]

If the person left ki soc, then I still think Tohei sensei would be in your lineage.

[akiy]

Hi folks,

Just a quick reminder: let's keep specific names and organizations out of this thread. Thanks.

-- Jun

[aikidoc]

Ian: I'm not familiar with the UK situation. Most of my interest has been on what I see happening here in the states. There is no regulation here like there is in a lot of European countries. you can pretty much do what you want.

Splinter groups will always be an issue. O'Sensei had many of them and some he even encouraged from what it says in the literature. They all earned that right by years of rigorous training and study. A 40 year old master of 40 arts and a half dozen self awarded or soke organization awarded 6th and 7th dans however does not in my mind fall into the same criteria. So if your group head was a long term student/instructor and broke away with some decent rank, more power to him. Although some of the guys doing this are physically gifted and can fake a lot, they generally aren't just all that good and their understanding is pretty shallow and their egos pretty deep. A lot of them have pretty weak connections with legitimate organizations as well. One here in Texas studied under a legitimate organization but did not like to test and never was awarded a black belt. Now 10 years later he's a 5th dan shihan. It can get pretty bizarre with the stuff these "masters" make up. One had a 3rd dan in a legitimate organization, made a new organization and became 10th dan and wrote a lousy book.

[aikidoc]

By the way, I really like the good responses I've been getting in this thread. It appears I'm not the only one concerned about this issue and the proliferation of bogus ranks and groups. Although the current organizations are not perfect and definitely not apolitical, it may be the best we have until we work out a better system. Some of the ideas have been great on identifying, containing, and wishfully eliminating or marginalizing these groups.

As Jun says, lets keep this on a conceptual non specific level.

[happysod]

John, my apologies, there just seems to have been a lot of threads recently espousing the "true aikido" (tm) and linking this to organisations/countries whatever - even to the extent of dojo storming (which was only mentioned half in jest). As an unreconstructed independent (my own experience of one of the larger organisations was totally negative) has left me with misgivings over blanket statements regarding some of the more august bodies.

Jun, sorry, please edit my thread as you wish - put this down to not thinking clearly.

[aikidoc]

Ian. Good point. I hope I have not been "espousing" the true aikido. This is not my intent with the thread. However, there are many claiming to do aikido and calling it that who don't have the qualifications. Unfortunately, when something is popular people do that a lot. When I was looking for aikido in California, a lot of karate dojos would advertise it. You would call them up and ask questions and find that he had seen aikido at a seminar and taught some techniques he remembered. That was funny to me. Advertising you teach aikido when you only know a couple of wrist locks. It was popular so it brought in the students for the hook.

[David Humm]

First time round was again a non-affiliated society who's auspices I think were the BAB, but I don't know (DaveH, as we found out, started in the same group, any idea of their then affiliation Dave?) - again, here I'm a potential fraud.
Hi Ian, Jeez that was a looong time ago :)

Yep the organisation was, if my memory serves me correctly under the umberlla of the Governing Body. Not that that actually gives any major credibility to it.

Thing is... Students aren't frauds, their grades are issued by their 'organisation' thus are "valid" but, it's the credibility of the organisation (ultimately it's Principal) which determines the quality or "worth" of the paper the grade is written on.

There is no such thing as a poor student... Only poor instructors.

Dave

[aikidoc]

. . . Evangelical Council for Financial Accountability or ECFA". J. Garcia.

So, does anyone have any thoughts on Jorge's idea. Here are mine.
1. Non-profit.
2. Organizational and individual dojo memberships.
3. Website with member dojos and their lineage history and latest verified ranks.
4. Grandfathering in organizations like: Aikikai affiliates (USAF, AAA, ASU, etc), Ki Society, Yoshinkan, Tomiki, etc.)
5. Board of Directors with power to accept or deny membership
6. Membership criteria and criteria for removing someone from membership (ethics)
7. Some kind of membership pledge statement to quote Dave Chappelle to "keep it real."
8. A publicized red flag list somewhat like the one above. By the way, anyone wanting to use those criteria in their area is more than welcome to steal anything they want from my suggestions.

This would be a extremely challenging undertaking but would definitely be interesting and worthwhile. Just my thoughts.

[Fred Little]

ISo in short unless we go back to the day of dojo storming frauds will continue to pop up.

I think that there are steps that can be taken short of aggressive dojo storming.

There's a USAF dojo in Southern New Jersey that last year organized itself to do an Aikido Friendship tour. In the first year, they visited all the USAF dojo in New Jersey. This year, they've expanded the circle beyond their organization and are working toward a goal of visiting every dojo.

After an initial approach via e-mail and some correspondence to nail down a time that worked for us and them, they drove up and we played for an evening. When they visited the club here at NJIT, about half-a-dozen of them, ranging from mid-kyu students to their instructor, a USAF yudansha who was also a retired police officer were in attendance, which seemed like a good mix to a) see how any given dojo might deal with a range of experience and skill levels and b) provide a good skills base and head count if the dojo being visited wasn't so friendly.

Having seen some odd things presented as aikido myself, based on what I saw of their practice, I'm pretty sure that their visits have been eye-openers for students in some of the more out-of-the-way places they visited, in ways similar to Craig Hocker's account of his encounter with the students he is working with now.

Friendly visits. Reaching out. Making nice. Sometimes it works better than dojo storming.

Hope this helps,

Fred Little

[aikidoc]

Good idea Fred. Another approach might be just for a bunch to show up and pay a mat fee for for training. Everyone could wear a white belt if they are not in your organization. Don't say anything unless asked and just train. Your training will show your quality. Then if they ask you you can tell them who you are and where you are from. Of course, you might want to leave out your purpose. :p Showing up at their seminars might also work.

Getting fraudulent groups to let you come train with them could be a problem-they often forbid their students from going to seminars as they might see something to make them question what they are learning. If it is done often, enough they might just quietly fade into the woodwork.

[Mary Eastland]

I can't believe that anyone could think or write about this subject so much. What does it have to do with your training and your authenticity? I am from an independent dojo that recieves no recognition from anyone but I would not trade my training or my teacher for anything in the world. I could care less if anyone else finds it authentic. It works for me.
Mary Eastland

[jimbaker]

The problem isn't with independent dojos or groups who, for the most part, simply state their lineage and their ranks. Their intention is to practice Aikido in a way that makes sense to them, in a way they like. They are happy to say where they learned the art and the rules of the dojo are there for the benefit of the students.

Frauds invent their lineage and ranks. Their intention is to lure and con students. Rank and lineage are marketing tools to be used to draw the fish to the frying pan. Lies have to be told to keep the fish..um ..students hooked. Part of the lie is to push away questions of where they learned what little they know of Aikido and the dojo rules are set up in a way that reinforces the con, which is never to the students benefit.

Why do they do it? Some are just out for money. Some like the money but also want the pretend power of being Sensei, but without all that effort and time wasted actually learning the art.

A con is a con. The same tactics are used regardless of the scam. Without naming names, one sensei with a self-inflicted rank who had his own Aikido group has recently given it all up. He's now running an internet based christian church (lower case intentional). The word "donations" shows up on the first page.

Jim Baker
Aikido of Norfolk

[aikidoc]

"I can't believe that anyone could think or write about this subject so much. What does it have to do with your training and your authenticity? "

Actually, with my own training and authenticity-absolutely none. However, it does affect the art and it is increasing. I found 5 organizations of this ilk in about an hour and can think of another 4-5 I have run across in the past. This is so prominent in some arts that it has virtually destroyed the credibility of any ranking and only makes rank valuable at the individual dojo level. As a member of the art, I don't want to see the egos of a few destroy the credibility of those who have actually worked at it. Again, I'm not criticizing the nature of independent dojos-I received my shodan from one, although I changed to the aikikai later. They have their place and value-as long as people keep it real-realistic grades, promotion/advancement criteria, and a lineage to aikido. Some don't even bother to have a loose connection-they saw it written somewhere, like the word and have never taken a legitimate aikido class. Yet, they use it anyway. The public does not know enough about the arts to sift through the bs. It is luck if they know more than the terms kung fu or karate. Unfortunately, they probably have a belief we are all honest and have high integrity in the arts.

[Bronson]

Mary,

I don't think that anyone here is against the idea of independant dojo or instructors. The main concern is people who, to put it bluntly, lie. They take the new unaware student's trust and use it to feed their egos and wallets. These are the people who need to be watched and exposed, not the independant teacher who is honest about his history and training.

To quote Ray Charles mother from the movie Ray; "scratch a liar find a thief"

IMO

Bronson

[aikidoc]

Jim: He has a dojo in Oregon now (type his name in with sensei). I checked after your private e-mail.

[MaryKaye]

I don't think that anyone here is against the idea of independant dojo or instructors. The main concern is people who, to put it bluntly, lie. They take the new unaware student's trust and use it to feed their egos and wallets. These are the people who need to be watched and exposed, not the independant teacher who is honest about his history and training.


The concern is that we should be careful not to write standards that discriminate against legitimate independent dojo. It is easier to assess the legitimacy of association dojo (we can, hopefully, count on the association to do some of the policing) but that's not a good reason to make things hard for the independents. That's why I like tests based on how the dojo is actually run more than ones based on lineage or association standing.

I also wonder a little about lineage. I study under someone who appears to have had a wide variety of teachers, and who therefore is uneasy about claiming any one of them as "her teacher." She also holds her highest dan rank as a result of winning a taigi competition, so the question "Who gave you yondan?" has no very straightforward answer. (Tohei Sensei did, technically, but not because she was his student at the time, as the flat statement would tend to imply.)

The rest of the dojo, with more conventional lineages going back to Tohei Sensei by an intervening step or two, notoriously regards her as the reference model for checking correctness, especially in taigi. She has extraordinarily precise aikido. I don't know how she did this without a singular teacher/student relationship but clearly she did. I expect there are other people like her, and it would be a pity to throw them out along with the frauds.

Mary Kaye
(not the same Mary)

[spinecracker]

I have found this thread, and others regarding questionable credentials/experience/etc very interesting. The watchword (or should that be phrase?) might be 'Caveat emptor' for those of us who care about the lineage and credentials of a martial art instructor. For me, the point is being assured that the instructor is going to teach you what you want to learn (i.e. I wouldn't want to learn about obstetrics from a plumber :P ). There are plenty of instructors out there who are after a fast buck, and I have had the misfortune to have encountered a couple of them. If in doubt about the credentials of your instructor, then do research on the instructor, the art and the organization. If we want to learn anything, then we'd better be prepared to ask questions and expect replies. I am extremely grateful that I'm beginning Aikido training again (after a long layoff) and that I have been fortunate to find an instructor who trained under Morihiro Saito sensei for quite a few years. I researched the instructor and the parent organization thoroughly, and am looking forward to getting back on the mat and learning some good Aikido (but not, knowing my abilities, doing good Aikido :P ). Another latin phrase that I'm partial to, and will probably become my training motto is 'Illegitimi Non Carborundum' - good advice for anyone.

[aikidoc]

Good points Robert. It's sort of like starting college. If I'm going to commit 4 years or more to something I ought to spend the time to check it out.

[stuartjvnorton]

Hmmm....a man grows up studying a variety of martial arts......breaks away from his primary teacher and develops his own interpretation and name for a "new" type of martial art....claims a spiritual connection that seems to many to be "divine" ,develops almost a cult-like following of disciples....claims the title of "O'Sensei" or Great Teacher.....sound familiar?

Don't get me wrong on this.....but there are some interesting parellels with other modern day martial artists that we label "frauds"


Maybe its all in the marketing................

If the people we're talking about in this thread were as skillful than O'Sensei obviously must have been, then I don't think anyone here would have a problem with them calling themselves Soke, Grand Super Dooper Trooper, whatever.

[aikidoc]

There's the test Stuart! When their "style" of aikido spreads across the world and starts turning out master instructors the quality of Saotome, Yamada, Chiba, Kobayashi, Saito, Kato, Shirata, Tohei, Tomiki, Shioda, etc., etc., then we'll know they really deserved their claims to fame and we were just jealous.

I don't think Ueshiba Morihei gave himself the name O'Sensei.

[PeterR]

The best defence really is the different forums such as aikiweb and e-budo among others.

You can no longer hide.

[Chris Li]

I don't think Ueshiba Morihei gave himself the name O'Sensei.

Actually, I've always wondered about that, but my hunch is that he did - probably in imitation of Sokaku Takeda, who also used that title.

Best,

Chris

[David Humm]

The ONLY way that "frauds" can be exposed is to do this in such a way that sends this information to a wide audience and is available to whom ever wants it.

The problem is four fold.

1) The legal issues involved in naming a person or organisation and having somewhere to present that information. IE a well known aiki website

2) The willingness of 'someone' to undertake an investigation which is solid enough to stand up to cross examination by anyone who wished to challenge it.

3) As I've already mentioned... *Some* are just not willing to accept what 'truths' may be presented to them no matter what evidence/proof is available.

4) Not all newcomers are forthright enough to research an instructor before joining their dojo thus, efforts (often efforts which cause the investigator greif) are essentially a waste of time.

And I speek from direct personal experience on all 4 points.

Don't get me wrong, the discussion of this issue is worthwhile however, unless anyone here is willing to pick up the mantle and actually do something other than discuss the problem, we are... blowing smoke up our own hakama (for those who wear them :) )

[Mary Eastland]

I see that that you are not pinpointing independant dojos. However, I think you are using fear and sensationalism to promote fundamentalism. 5 to 10 dojos out of the several thousand in the United States is not enough of a percentage to implement the rigid rules and regualtions you are exploring.

Adults are adults and don't need your protection. They can discover and dicard just as we did. It is part of their process.

Going to another dojo with motives to uncover "frauds" is not at all in keeping with Aikido principles. My understanding of O'Sensei's teaching's is to focus on my own path, that testing and competing would only harm me, and I think the Art.

I appreciate your concern. I also think that Aikido has something bigger watching over it and we will be ok.

Mary Eastland

[aikidoc]

"I think you are using fear and sensationalism to promote fundamentalism. 5 to 10 dojos out of the several thousand in the United States is not enough of a percentage to implement the rigid rules and regualtions you are exploring."

First, I don't think anyone is using fear and sensationalism to promote fundamentalism. Tolerance for different styles of aikido has been expressed throughout the thread. Although the posters surely have their preferences I don't think anyone wants to promote fundamentalism-generally to me that means an extreme group with very narrow views. I found 6 "styles" some of which have more than one dojo in about an hour and with little difficulty. I know of at least another 4. Now, we are not trying to point those out and as Jun asked keeping names/organizations out of this. However, there is a bigger issue here. The number over the last few years has been growing regularly. I know of other arts, which I do not want to comment about, where the problem has become so large that rank has become meaningless except for individual dojos. This in itself allows more perpetuation of fraudulent activity/ranks. So, do we just sit back and not address the issue and allow aikido to become like such other arts? I for one would rather elevate awareness and hope aikidoka become more cognizant of the problem and maybe take steps to prevent it from proliferating.

I have run into 4 of these frauds personally in my short career. One of which I was a participant in getting him kicked out of his own dojo and stopping his claims of teaching aikido. They are out there and in my observation growing. Especially with some of the soke organizations out there that will certify anything for a buck. The public knows little about martial arts and less about aikido.

"Adults are adults and don't need your protection. They can discover and dicard just as we did. It is part of their process." Really! Personally, I think this is overly optimistic. Cons perpetrate frauds on adults on a regular basis. Charismatic cons can make people think they are getting something of value. It costs the public money and leaves them with a bad feeling about the martial arts. The values most arts promote are thereby diminshed. The public looks on us with disdain when that occurs and undoubtedly prefer not to expose their children to such bad role models. My feeling is the martial arts has a lot to offer in terms of ethics, getting kids to exercise which is a rarity in schools now days, teaching discipline, etc. I don't want a fraud to burst that bubble.

"Going to another dojo with motives to uncover "frauds" is not at all in keeping with Aikido principles. My understanding of O'Sensei's teaching's is to focus on my own path, that testing and competing would only harm me, and I think the Art." I think most of the comments in this regard were tongue in cheek. Although it might be fun and solve some of the problems, I don't think anyone really feels this is a viable option given legal issues.

"I appreciate your concern. I also think that Aikido has something bigger watching over it and we will be ok."

I think the something bigger watching over aikido has to be legitimate aikidoka. It is my feeling we have have to be vigilant of the deceptions and do whatever we can to prevent them and educate the public. A legitimate instructor can for example arrange an interview or spotlight on his art and school. This would be a good place to highlight some of the red flags for example. The public then can take it upon themselves to use a screening tool to see if the local frauds measure up. Often times students will start looking at the literature and tapes and books and hold their instruction up to such a yardstick. They will also sometimes start to research instructor backgrounds and lineage on their own out of interest. They may not like what the find-no one likes to be duped-but eventually they get the point. However, some charismatic instructors can convince the pope to change religions. Elevating awareness and where possible doing things to bring light of such practices while not creating legal problems may be all we can do. It is better than nothing.

[Fred Little]

Good idea Fred. Another approach might be just for a bunch to show up and pay a mat fee for for training. Everyone could wear a white belt if they are not in your organization. Don't say anything unless asked and just train. Your training will show your quality. Then if they ask you you can tell them who you are and where you are from. Of course, you might want to leave out your purpose. :p Showing up at their seminars might also work.

Getting fraudulent groups to let you come train with them could be a problem-they often forbid their students from going to seminars as they might see something to make them question what they are learning. If it is done often, enough they might just quietly fade into the woodwork.

John:

I've seen surreptitious "visits" go badly precisely because the home team felt that what was going on was dojo-storming, even when that wasn't the case.

So one of the things I liked about the "Friendship Tour" approach is the frame. Nobody is singled out, either positively or negatively. The visitors are upfront and it eliminates a lot of potential problems at the outset.

If places are closed to visitors, that may be a sign, though of what varies from place to place.

Best,

Fred Little

[MaryKaye]

I've seen surreptitious "visits" go badly precisely because the home team felt that what was going on was dojo-storming, even when that wasn't the case.

So one of the things I liked about the "Friendship Tour" approach is the frame. Nobody is singled out, either positively or negatively. The visitors are upfront and it eliminates a lot of potential problems at the outset.


I like to visit other dojo when I'm travelling, and sometimes it seems in retrospect that this has made the local sensei feel "under scrutiny" even though that's far from the case.

I particularly remember a tense moment when the sensei of an independent dojo said "Oh, Ki Society would do a 'ki test' here" and gave me a shove. Their novice student said wistfully "I think that would be really useful, balance is such a problem for me--" and there was a moment of quite uncomfortable silence. I was not meaning to poach on their students--the idea honestly hadn't crossed my mind--but I can see why it crossed sensei's.

If we visited each other more often in general this problem would likely go away, along with many problems involving unnoticed fraudulent dojo. I went to a seminar recently where we did a closing circle and asked people to name themselves and their dojo: there were six different dojo of, I think, four different traditions. If we encouraged that actively, frauds would stand out by their absence. (Of course, so would a few legit dojo with strong bans on cross-training; but it would be a start.)

I would volunteer for a Friendship Tour like a shot--it sounds like fun in itself, as well as positive for the community. Doing it cross-tradition does take some delicacy, though: you don't want to learn "Hey, we don't teach the breakfall from that--" the hard way. (Been on the receiving end of that one myself; the person who threw me said apologetically "You looked as though you knew what you were doing....")

Mary Kaye

[David Humm]

...Adults are adults and don't need your protection. They can discover and dicard just as we did. It is part of their process. Mary, If I may, I'd like you to answer the following questions if you'd indulge me?

How would you, after say 10 years of dedicated study feel if you discovered the following:

1) The person you considered your Sensei had attempted to forge a dan grade and coaching certificate with the intent of misleading a Sports Centre ?

2) Your Sensei had publically (Via the internet) attempted to claim he was one of the first people in his country to study Aikido (and this had been proved incorrect)

3) Your Sensei attempted to inform the masses that he was "The only Westerner to have ever been made a Master of aikido" When this is in fact an absolute fabrication

4) Promoted himself to lofty yudansha ranking and began refering to himself as "shihan"

5) Claimed to have been THE FIRST person to study Karate in your country (despite that being proved incorrect)

The list of examples I could present is endless, all of which have been tried by several individuals here in the UK alone.

The point I'm making is that these pillocks have attempted to con people for one reason only - Personal Gain which is brought about through EGO. Unless the general public are made aware of these people and their activities they are going to be taken for a ride. And THAT is not Aiki in principle.

Dave

[kironin]

I would volunteer for a Friendship Tour like a shot--it sounds like fun in itself, as well as positive for the community. Doing it cross-tradition does take some delicacy, though: you don't want to learn "Hey, we don't teach the breakfall from that--" the hard way. (Been on the receiving end of that one myself; the person who threw me said apologetically "You looked as though you knew what you were doing....")


differences in ukemi is much more tricky than differences in technique,

Friendship tours for positive reasons of building bridges I am all for.

I think Friendship tours that have a covert idea of ferreting out frauds had better have only people with excellent ukemi skills. The nature of aikido practice being what it is.

[John Boswell]

The point I'm making is that these pillocks have attempted to con people for one reason only - Personal Gain which is brought about through EGO. Unless the general public are made aware of these people and their activities they are going to be taken for a ride. And THAT is not Aiki in principle.

More to the point: It is truly NOT Aiki to let such injustices slide by. A sin of ommission, or a crime of non-action (however you want to put it) is going against the harmony of your world and art, is it not?

I love finding a good "Thought to ponder." :)

[Mary Eastland]

Dear Dave:

I think I would feel duped and betrayed. But I am an adult. I can deal with those feelings. I am training to not be a victim . I don't need to be rescued.
I am not saying we should protect people like this. I just feel like the regulations that have been proposed are too rigid.

I think that information passed about individuals who are fraudulent would be better than trying to regulate Aikido.


The very things I appreciate about being independent such as, no politics or systematic sexism are threatened by some of the regulations that are being proposed.

Mary Eastland

[Qatana]

"Systematic sexism???"

I can't find any mention of gender in this thread...

[aikidoc]

"I just feel like the regulations that have been proposed are too rigid."

Mary, I'm not sure where you are picking up the idea of regulations. I think several good things have been thrown out in a brainstorming fashion to "red flag" the frauds. Realistically, I don't think anyone on this site wants to be regulated or expect to regulate others. I think getting rid of the bad apples is a good idea although not probably likely to happen. I do think personally many, at least on this site, would have little problem with some of the suggestions: willingness to communicate your lineage and prove your rank sources (whether independent or not); realistic websites; avoidance of soke groups giving out ranks for money, etc. etc. Legitimate styles/dojos should have little to hide. The 40 year old 8-10th dan, soke, grandmaster, professor, doctor does-his or her lies.

[spinecracker]

There seems to be a consensus of opinion on this thread that communication between aikidoka (or insert martial artist of your choice here) regarding the qualities and credentials of instructors and organisations could be used as an effective self-policing method. Should an aikidoka run across an individual or group that is not what he/she/it appears, then their experience should be shared amongst those who should be informed i.e. prospective students of that individual or group. I agree that regulations that are too rigid would be detrimental to many admirable instructors and clubs out there, so perhaps the only way to ensure that aikido keeps it's reputation is by the dissemination of information. But if there are legal impediments to naming names on forums such as AikiWeb, then the whole thing becomes just a philosophical discussion (i.e. as much use as glasses to a blind man - or, my favorite - as much use as a chocolate teapot). One thing that we should also be doing is praising those individuals and organisations out there who a wonderful job in promoting and teaching aikido. Perhaps having a list of names of good aiki people and groups might help us focus more on the positve around us instead of the negative. Now I have to go and have a lie down - all this thinking has given me a headache :freaky:

[Don_Modesto]

Not really. But they might as well do that as us regulate aikido:

Texas woman pays $50,000 for cloned cat (http://www.startribune.com/stories/484/5151590.html)

First Professional Wrestling;

then silicone implants;

robot pets;

draft dodgers as more patriotic than decorated heroes;

cloned pets.

Sheesh! Even when we can have the real thing, we don't want it. We should be setting up a consulting firm to promote these aikidolts and take a cut.

If you can't beat 'em, MUSUBI!

[Lan Powers]

> I think that information passed about individuals who are fraudulent would be better than trying to regulate Aikido. <

I would agree with you.
That is the issue that was brought up concerning how to DO this without the lawsuit issue coming up.

You name specific individuals or groups, it can become very tricky.(see above)
You don't name specifics, you don't really warn.
Frivolous lawsuits abound in this country....could a slander case be made out by a fraud and made to " stick" against his accusers/exposers? :blush:

As well,
how long before you get the "I can ruin this jerk"(nevermind if it is true) rears its ugly little head? evileyes


Just some random thoughts on the subject
Lan

[RonRagusa]

When I was very much younger it was important to me that I be asked to join a particular organization at my high school. The organization lay slightly to the outlaw side of legitimacy as far as the school was concerned and, as such, membership was much sought after by students. Being a member of this group brought with it instant recognition and a modicum of respect from other students due to the rigorous entrance requirements exacted upon new recruits. Well, I got my bid, lasted through the six weeks of systematic abuse dished out by the members and was sworn into the group. That moment in time remains vivid in my memory; indicating that it must have meant very much to me. Looking back I now realize that it was the conferring of recognition by a body of people I considered superior to me that drove my desire to belong to that group. Forty plus years of experience now allows me to laugh at the very idea that my self worth needs affirmation from without.

In the early years of my Aikido training I experienced many of the same feelings related to the legitimacy of my practice. Never mind that my sensei's technique combined grace and power in ways that left me awe struck when I watched him; he was a maverick, a breakaway from his teacher and out there on his own. As I moved up through the ranks my feelings of isolation from the larger Aikido world intensified. Yes I was growing, both as an Aikido practitioner and a person. Yes my technique began to pour out of me and my strength grew in ways I could never have imagined in my weight lifting days when muscle was all the rage. But for all my growth and advancement who was there in the larger world to pat me on the back and say "well done"? Sure my rank was recognized by my sensei's organization but that was a small ripple in a very large pond; what about the rest of the Aikido world?

As I'm sure that Sensei knew would happen, I reached a point where I realized that none of those feelings of inadequacy really mattered. Regardless of what the larger body thought of me I would continue to train and teach. I would continue to grow, my Aikido evolve. This was not a slow realization; it hit me like a thunderbolt. It's as though I was jolted out of sleep. Suddenly my path lay before me, broad and bright. I knew at that moment that my 25 years as Sensei's student had come to an end. I have since become an independent practitioner. My need to "join" and be recognized has been burned away by the sheer joy of following my own road.

I believe that all this worrying about so called frauds ruining Aikido is really coming from the need of many Aikidoka for conformity. To say that the art is threatened by the few who may not conform to ones idea of what constitutes a legitimate instructor is to miss the fact that the Art of Aikido is much larger than the sum of its parts. O-Sensei's gift to the world is forever beyond the control of a small group of people who wish to set standards and have everyone conform to them. The seed planted by O-Sensei has grown into a tree with many branches; the branches have dropped seeds, some of which have grown into trees with branches of their own. Natural selection will determine which trees will live to pass on their knowledge and which will fade into obscurity.

Enjoy your training. Teach and allow your students to discover the Aikido that lies within them. Realize that for some, their Aikido will be very different from your own and it's ok.

[L. Camejo]

Very interesting thread on a topic very close to my heart as well. For me this problem is an extremely serious one and has possibility to totally destroy a country's (and by extension Aikido students from that country's) credibility in the art of Aikido (among others) if left unchecked. The trend may have already begun in this country as a thread in E-Budo's Baffling Budo section would attest.

I have to agree with John Riggs' post that speaks about the increasing numbers of these schools and the resultant effects. It is something I also experience regularly and sadly have to be pointman for as regards representing a certain subsection of Aikido (sometimes representing Aikdio as a whole) to those who may be fortunate enough to know better than that being put forward by the fraudsters.

Imagine a small country where there may be a few very powerful, charismatic instructors of what one may deem a McDojo, and these instructors decide to spread themselves across the country, regionally and even internationally teaching a myriad of different styles and awarding ranks. The good thing (for them) about this is that they tend to command a certain level of finances that can allow for further large scale expansion into other areas of instruction easily, even in the face of other legitimate schools who may be teaching the styles they profess to teach.

Now imagine these huge McDojos with all their assets and financial and political (via local sporting bodies) clout deciding to teach Aikido, though their "instructors" have only learnt from books and videos or "done a few classes and seminars" and have given themselves fraudulent rank and started to teach. The average person will tend to gravitate towards these schools since they are most visible to the public (as regards MA in general), have the finances to litter the country with dojos and the absence of ethics to have a slew of "black belt level" instructors populating these dojos within a year - all teaching Aikido learnt from a book, video or a couple seminars. They combine this with having demonstrations using very skilled Ukes who can make any technique look good and executing techniques similar enough to that in the latest Seagal flick to seem like Aikido to the untrained eye.

The general public sees these people every time the word Aikido is heard and soon whatever they do becomes imprinted in the average mind as a mental image of what quality Aikido is supposed to look like.

Now place in this situation the internationally affiliated, recognised and trained instructors of Aikido who may have been teaching for years prior without having the level of contacts to attain the sort of finances commanded by these McDojos.

In this scenario no amount of "correct and useful information" is going to be able to stop this great behemoth of a McDojo since the legitimate schools are merely a speck compared to the sheer size of these fraudsters. The only folks who tend to escape the fraudsters are folks who actually know what Aikido is supposed to be and look like. However this means that legitimate Aikido is not really spread to new people within the country but only practiced by a choice few who know what the real art is supposed to look and feel like and choose to stay away from the lure of the charlatans.

Of course as far as the rest of the Aikido world is concerned, the Aikido practitioners of that particular region are basically a pack of jokers, since they are practicing "God knows what" and trying to pass it off as Aikido and may only see the light when they travel outside the boundaries of the McDojo system itself.

As far as controlling this situation, I like the concepts given by David Humm with the addition of possibly having a recognised representative (or a few) in each country to act as point men for the global organisation and carry out the basic levels of research required. As an Executive Member of our local Judo Association we are constantly in the process of validating the claims of schools that want to enter the association.

Just my thoughts. The problem may be more dangerous than it appears in certain environments where the leverage is enjoyed by those teaching BS and calling it Aikido. To me it's not about styles but about quality of training regardless of style. We all have certain things (based on our own training) that we look for to judge quality Aikido - do we want Aikido of poor quality to become the standard for those who do not know better?

LC:ai::ki:

[David Humm]

...I believe that all this worrying about so called frauds ruining Aikido is really coming from the need of many Aikidoka for conformity. To say that the art is threatened by the few who may not conform to ones idea of what constitutes a legitimate instructor is to miss the fact that the Art of Aikido is much larger than the sum of its parts. Ron
Seasonal wishes at this time of year fella :)

Whilst I read with great interest your accounts, I feel you've missed the entire plot of this thread.

No one is saying that independance = rubbish

No one is saying that frauds always come from independant organisations

No one is actually worried.

What we are discussing is the very real fact that bogus aikido instructors DO exist. they perpertrate their fraudulant behaviour for no other reason other than personal gain.

Some of us would rather that didn't happen.

Dave

[MaryKaye]

Larry,

Might it be possible for the legitimate aikido organizations in your country to cooperate in sponsoring a yearly seminar with some top foreign teachers? It might be easier to compete with the large McDojo's in publicity if you only had to do it once a year and for a well-defined special event, and if the costs and organizational energy were spread among several dojo. And once people experience excellent aikido they are less likely to be impressed by frauds.

A recent seminar here was co-sponsored by several dojo including an independent one. It doesn't have to be done within organizational boundaries as long as the excellence of the teachers is generally agreed upon.

Mary Kaye

[aikidoc]

Ron: I agree with David in that I think you missed the plot. Let me state it more clearly. This is not about the independents who do their time on the mat. 25 years on the mat if one is seriously training and learning should not detract from anyone's aikido.

This is about the following:
1. Lofty ranks awarded that make no sense given the age and training background of the individual.
2. Ranks awarded by themselves, a soke organization that gives them out for money (one organization even has founding/head member on a most wanted list for the state of Arizona), or by karate organizations that have no legitimate rank in aikido).
3. People who make fraudulent claims about things they have done and made up people they've studied with. There is a whole thread on E-budo or bullshido (don't recall) where they list the best excuses these guys put out. E.g., I can't tell you about my CIA experiences because its top secret and I'd have to kill you, I was an ex-SEAL, Green Beret, Ranger, etc. (never verifiable), I was adopted at 7 years old b