Aikido Frauds [Archive] - Page 2 - AikiWeb Aikido Forums

Ali B

01-10-2005, 01:21 PM

There are some excellent independent teachers out there guys, please don't let us forget that a piece of paper, or even 30 - 40 years experience of a direct link to O sensei cannot guarantee a grasp on what he was trying to teach. Many have the knowledge but how many are truly understanding it?

I do not promote fake or fraudulent teachers in any way. The so called 11th dan "Master" I told you about in my previous post was a bit of laughing stock within the aikido community in his area. Needless to say, his dojo closed down within 1 year - good riddance. I am sure some of his students wasted time, money and effort with that man and I am truly sorry about that.

The snobbery I am talking about is something I am guilty of too - even the true masters have their egos :D . If a person thinks that buying an aikido grade will make them good, then they have a problem because they never get to experience our art for real, thats their true loss. As far as their students are concerned, well that is a different matter. I just don't see any way of policing it, I still think it could be dangerous to criticise the teaching of others, for all we know they could be so advanced, their techniques so much higher than ours that that we cannot "get it", maybe not.

Love and light
Ali

John Boswell

01-10-2005, 01:48 PM

Alison,

If it's one thing I know... it is that when you see the truth of something, there is no denying it. Truth can not be denied, because it IS.

If Ledyard Sensei were to walk into my dojo and look at me and ask, "What the hell martial art is that?" then I'd begin to wonder whether I had been training in aikido or not for the last 3 years. If I were to walk into another dojo and not recognize what they were doing, I would wonder about them.

It is not a question of someone being "...so advanced, their techniques so much higher than ours that we cannon get it." If someone were truly that advanced, there were would be NO DOUBT!

People getting called out for their lack of skill or creditials HAVE to be able to back it up. And I'm not speaking from snobbery here, but rather against theirs. And yes, speaking out against fraud IS dangerous... but that is the price we have to pay to keep aikido throughout the WHOLE world honest. Otherwise, the art becomes tainted and diluted in with the muck and falls by the wayside as "just another karate thing."

Sometime in our lives we should feel compelled to stand up for something... anything, even if it just ourselves. For those who can stomach it, they can stand up for Aikido as well, and I'm sure many in the world will be greatful for the effort.

Big Dave

01-10-2005, 02:22 PM

I noticed that a number of instructors on the websites above had PhD's in MA. What exactly is that and where does one go to school to get it? Just curious.

Ali B

01-10-2005, 02:59 PM

Yes! Thats my point John. When you see the truth there is no denying it! If Ledyard Sensei were to walk into my dojo, are we suggesting he is not the real thing if he does not have a piece of paper saying so? Or a direct line to O sensei?

I was trying to be funny about the Higher techniques, etc. This is obviously something you feel strongly about and I am sorry to offended you. I was not suggesting for a minute that we put up with the fakies, only asking where do we draw the line?

I agree about the need to stop aikido being watered down, but if so, which schools should we protect? Should we ask all the other schools to change their name to something else? Who gets to decide who is in and who is out because IMHO, there are as many styles as there are aikidoka, therefore it would be impossible.

Love and light
Ali

aikidoc

01-10-2005, 03:07 PM

I noticed that a number of instructors on the websites above had Ph D's in MA. What exactly is that and where does one go to school to get it? Just curious.

That's the point David. You don't go to school to get one per se. You get one by being in the arts a set amount of time and achieving a certain rank (apparently it's ok to award it to yourself). I don't know how they get by with it since most states regulate the granting of such titles. I think I'd be embarrassed to call myself doctor of the martial arts.

David Humm

01-10-2005, 03:18 PM

....speaking out against fraud IS dangerous... but that is the price we have to pay to keep aikido throughout the WHOLE world honest. Otherwise, the art becomes tainted and diluted in with the muck and falls by the wayside as "just another karate thing."

Sometime in our lives we should feel compelled to stand up for something... anything, even if it just ourselves. For those who can stomach it, they can stand up for Aikido as well, and I'm sure many in the world will be greatful for the effort.

John... I think you'd be surprised at the "live and let live" mentalilty of those who'd rather not 'concern' themselves with anything other than what's in front of them.

You are 100% right when you say speaking out is dangerous but, I feel the "danger" is worth the effort. If more of us took a stand against these people who seek to bolster their ego, and in doing so lie to others, the process which we are seeing today IE a PhD in MA ?? and all the rest of the bullshit would be that much slower.

Here in the UK we (those who care to look) are seeing a slow but growing trend in grossly inflated grades, experience and general BS, before long things will get worse.

Regards

Ali B

01-10-2005, 03:24 PM

John, I Have just had a look at the "real" aikido forum. Ha Ha

Forget what I just said... :D I want to reiterate that I whole heartedly agree there is a problem with people appointing themselves a grade, etc and then pronouncing that the C*** :blush: they teach is real aikido.

STOP THEM! :eek:

kironin

01-10-2005, 03:46 PM

I noticed that a number of instructors on the websites above had PhD's in MA. What exactly is that and where does one go to school to get it? Just curious.

You misunderstand the abbreviation here.

it's not Ph.D. but actually

P. h. D. == Piled higher and Deeper!

:crazy:
---

ps. so Dr. in front of the name makes perfect sense.
only tradition keeps the initials following the name.
The meaning would be most clear as Dr. P.h.D. so-and-so.

aikidoc

01-10-2005, 04:35 PM

P. h. D. == Piled higher and Deeper! That's about what the degree is worth (the stuff in the pile). I wonder if they charge for the degree. This could be a real fraud issue in some states where this is regulated-in spite of their disclaimer. "All of our degrees are not to be confused with traditional University degrees !!! They are for Martial Arts only, not for academic uses and should not be used for any other purpose !!! How you use your degree is completely your responsibility!!!" So you tell me they are worthless as an academic degree so why would someone want one. :crazy:

kung fu hamster

01-10-2005, 04:55 PM

aikidoc

01-10-2005, 06:58 PM

It would be kind of difficult to pin that sort of thing down, if a person went to school and completed their Ph.D they are entitled to use the appellation as a sign-off, isn't that so? Even if it creates a sort of misrepresentation by omission of explanation what topic of study the Ph.D was awarded for. Or am I wrong?

Yes, if the person actually "went to school and earned the Ph.D they would be entitled to use the sign off. However, this is not even a mail order degree. They are not an authorized degree granting institution. That is, it is a fake degree awarded by people who awarded themselves Ph.Ds. Hey, if you earn it use the title-I use mine. However, to earn a doctorate you are looking at somewhere in the neighborhood of 8 years of college. They are doing this in a couple of months with a two year limitation. Life experience counts I guess.

kung fu hamster

01-10-2005, 08:55 PM

Nariyama Shihan after over 20 years as 7th Dan assumed 8th Dan - there was no one to give him the rank. There were a few reasons for it - one it allowed other people to be promoted that deserved it and two 8th Dan was supposed to be the top rank in the JAA. Now you are saying he's suspicious.

This may get me flamed but I am curious, I know very little about customary rank promotional norms in Japan. Is it considered to be an unexceptional practice to assume a higher rank in terms of how they do things over there (and for the reasons you enumerate)? If so, wouldn't it seem that there is precedent for others who wish to make use of self-awarded rank? Excuse me, not meaning to offend anyone, I am not at all knowlegeable about these matters.

PeterR

01-10-2005, 09:03 PM

My point is that there is precedent - I used an example close to home.

I took exception to people describing behaviour as fraudulent when it is just different from the way they do things.

Lan Powers

01-10-2005, 09:26 PM

My point is that there is precedent - I used an example close to home.

I took exception to people describing behaviour as fraudulent when it is just different from the way they do things.

Precedent for promotion from a lifetime of training in the art, of course.
I believe this is a different situation from the people who hold rank NOWHERE NEAR the accomplishments of Nariyama Sensei.
I doubt that the difference is just the amount of time.

The skill level.
The actual time of training in the art.(He has the mileage :p )
The fact that the training time is actually in THIS art.
(Not Karate, or whatever.. and granted rank from the same)
Not to mention the intent...(Giving to the art, vs "rank" to gain profits from prospective students.)

Lots of difference, I think.
Just a opinion from the cheap seats... :D
Lan

L. Camejo

01-10-2005, 09:33 PM

It's so interesting human perception. How we continually see what we want to see.

I remember it being indicated at different points in the thread that the concept of fraudulence had nothing to do with Independent organisations whose instructors actually had training in the art from a recognised instructor who had lineage that led back to the Founder of the art at some point. Yet many continue to rehash the subject (not saying that Linda's post is one of these - its just an observation I made about some posts).

It is one thing to award oneself rank in an organisation that one has formed and has trained to a certain degree of proficiency where one's knowledge and skill can support any challenge to that rank. It is quite another to train in one martial art and assume rank in another - this is what we are referring to as fraudulent behaviour e.g. a Jujutsuka assuming 10th Dan in Aikido because he saw some video tapes and can mix what he saw with his Jujutsu curriculum and fool some folks who can't tell the difference.

The case of Nariyama Shihan quoted by Linda could apply to every other head of every non-Aikikai style (since each successive Doshu is the head there) in existence and the members who carried on after the death of the Founders of these particular styles (e.g. the first successors of G. Shioda, K. Tohei, M. Saito, M. Mochizuki etc.). These people, if not ranked to a certain level commensurate with being the head of the style by the same style's Founder by the time of that Founder's death, will have no one qualified enough to rank them later on anyway. At this point the decision may be made by some sort of legal entity (an association or federation that represents the style) that takes the responsibility of making the decision, or the person may just assume the rank after having progressed over a certain period of time commensurate with the next upward move in grade. What would have happened to the first Aikikai Doshu if Ueshiba M. had passed away at a time when the former was only at Ikkyu level and not yet ready to assume the technical reigns of the organisation? When Tomiki died, Nariyama was 7th Dan (at least in my limited knowledge) and left with the responsibility of carrying on the Shodokan system afaik. Again there was no one higher in rank to grade him, but as far as I see, those who profess to be heads of certain styles tend to have a certain rank as well (no one pays attention to a Shodan who decides to form his own new style correct?), as such Nariyama was placed in a position where 8th Dan was assumed, to this date it is the highest Dan ranking one can attain in Shodokan (out of respect for Tomiki Sensei (9th Dan) as well I have been told).

Assuming rank that can be supported by one's skill and kowledge in the art is one thing, assuming rank that one has not training to support is quite something else.

Just my thoughts.
LC:ai::ki:

PeterR

01-10-2005, 09:34 PM

The discussion and John's thesis has evolved quite a bit since my original mention of Nariyama Shihan.
He is also not the only one who I consider justified in self promotion and all are contrary to the idea that self promotion by itself is an indicator of fraud.

Now a 35 year old tenth dan soke grandmaster from where ever is another matter.

By the way Larry - Tomiki K. was awarded 8th Dan by Ueshiba M. in 1942 and took no higher grade. Tomiki K. did award Ohba H. 9th Dan just before he died. I do think that 8th Dan is the highest rank in the JAA today and is appropriate for the Head Instructor of the style. There are a few of Nariyama Shihan's sempai that are 8th Dan.

Peter Goldsbury

01-10-2005, 10:00 PM

This may get me flamed but I am curious, I know very little about customary rank promotional norms in Japan. Is it considered to be an unexceptional practice to assume a higher rank in terms of how they do things over there (and for the reasons you enumerate)? If so, wouldn't it seem that there is precedent for others who wish to make use of self-awarded rank? Excuse me, not meaning to offend anyone, I am not at all knowlegeable about these matters.

Nariyama Shihan is part of a system with clear precedents in terms of skill and the number of years of training. Where you have a system with numbered dan ranks, you have the problem of deciding the equivalence in terms of skill and the number of years put in. It is fairly well recognized in Japan that 8th dan is equivalent to menkyo-kaiden and, to keep within Shodokan, when Morihei Ueshiba switched to dan ranks, Kenji Tomiki received 8th dan.

However, Morihei Ueshiba never had a rank and neither did/do his successors. If you are Doshu, you are head of the system, period. Having a rank as well is pointless. However you need a 'do' to be the 'shu' of and similarly with a 'soke'. A soke needs a 'ke': it is not merely a title.

Another word for 'ke' is 'ie' and the 'iemoto' system became common in Japanese traditional arts during the Genroku Era (in the Togugawa period), when these arts became more popular. Previously, the 'do' model of individual teacher and student, both progressing along the Way and reaching successive levels of awareness (both physical and spiritual), was a sufficient conceptual basis for the art, but the iemoto model adds a much sharper sense of regulation within a system.

Best regards,

Peter Goldsbury

01-10-2005, 10:10 PM

What would have happened to the first Aikikai Doshu if Ueshiba M. had passed away at a time when the former was only at Ikkyu level and not yet ready to assume the technical reigns of the organisation?
LC:ai::ki:

I think you mean the second Doshu. Morihei Ueshiba himself was the first. This issue was clearly in the minds of some people when Kisshomaru Ueshiba passed away. The particular custom of the iemoto paradigm followed by the Aikikai Hombu is that the successor is the son of the previous Doshu and so Moriteru Ueshiba assumed the role wirth the agreement of the Zaidan Houjin Aikikai, which is the legal body controlling the Aikikai Hombu. It is not unknown in the iemoto system to have members at a higher technical level than the head. It is assumed that the person will grow into the role and Mitsuteru Ueshiba, the son of the present Doshu, is now doing some serious training.

Best regards,

kung fu hamster

01-10-2005, 10:22 PM

Peter Goldsbury

01-10-2005, 10:48 PM

Many thanks for the illuminating replies, I am not in any way trying to suggest that sensei's of that calibre are 'suspicious', and I agree that MA frauds are not a good thing, someone could get seriously hurt.

As Hombu dojo already has a mechanism in place to do the lineage research, I wonder if it would seem a little presumptuous to them for further measures to be taken such as trying to establish an equivalent of a 'Good Housekeeping Seal of Approval' for aikido dojos or organizations. (ok, getting ready for some real serious flaming)

I do not think your post needs any flaming. However, I would think that the Hombu Dojo feels that the 'seal of approval' exists already, in the regulations it has for giving Official Recognition to aikido organizations established overseas. The regulations for dan ranks apply in Japan as well.

kung fu hamster

01-10-2005, 10:57 PM

Yes, that's what I mean. That is the mechanism of which I spoke. I'm not saying that anyone is going to send out an aiki vigilante posse, but on the whole I think I agree with most of what Mary Eastland posted. Who, if not Hombu dojo, would be setting criteria, this whole concept of policing potential aikido fraud could have the overtones of a despotic condo association if it gets out of hand.

Dan Rubin

01-10-2005, 11:01 PM

By the way, the university section is a real interesting read.

That's nothin'. How about this quote about the Master Council President at http://www.ndcma.com/SifuWilliamRichardson.html

"Sifu is an accomplished fighter, and has been in the ring for eight years, taking no less than first or second place at any fight." :D :D :D :p :rolleyes:

(Actually, this is less a comment about the person than it is about the value of a good editor.)

Dan

PeterR

01-10-2005, 11:12 PM

Who, if not Hombu dojo, would be setting criteria
I assume you mean Aikikai Honbu which, by very nature of separate organizations, has no right to set criteria outside of their own group.

Just as Yoshinkan or Shodokan Honbu has no right to set Aikikai criteria.

kung fu hamster

01-10-2005, 11:25 PM

Well I didn't specify, but that's a really good point you brought up, and it gives me more to think about. Consensus on legitimacy criteria seems to be a very thorny issue.

kung fu hamster

01-10-2005, 11:55 PM

Oh yeah, I forgot how you guys get disgusted by confusing posts which appear to lump the legit dojos with the pure fraud scoundrels, I'm just musing and leaping around from one train of thought to another. Sorreeeee!

aikidoc

01-11-2005, 06:00 AM

rob_liberti

01-11-2005, 07:57 AM

If the person has 7th dan ability in aikido after 2 days of training, then I'm fine with that person getting the promotion or even for them to start their own thing. Here is how I currently see rank - I know other people see thigns differently - but it's a starting point for what ISN'T fradulent aikido:
I expect a shodan in aikido to know basic technique, be able to take ukemi for all of the basic waza, and to be able to take ukemi basically endlessly (it can be slow, but always get up fast). [I know this isn't everyone's definition but most wouldn't have a problem with someone with these qualifications being promoted to shodan. And I wouldn't care how long the student has been training, really.] I expect a nidan to have good flow - good transitions and better precision. I expect a sandan to actually have mind/body connection and clearly demonstrate kokyu in their waza. I expect a yondan to be able to move very naturally (unencoumbered) and powerfully where they separate their focus and use their mind and body to accomplish different goals at the same time. I expect a godan to be able to move themselves and from deeper levels of principles. I expect a rokudan to be able to move both themselves and their partners from deeper levels of principles. I expect a nanadan to be able to express their own feeling - as opposed to coping their teacher's feelings - while expressing ego free movement with partners. I expect a hachidan to be a nanadan and also have 1000s of students growing in their influence. I expect a kudan to be a nandan and also have tens of thousands of students. I expect a judan to be an honorary rank given to someone that died while dedicated to aikido.

That might not be everyone's rank definitions, but if you saw someone who had only trained a day or so but they met any of those definitions, would you argue? If so, what else would you want to see to justify that rank?

Rob

aikidoc

01-11-2005, 12:44 PM

FYI. I am compiling a list of links with potential frauds claiming to teach aikido. I am adding to this as I discover them. I will gladly provide this list privately through e-mail. I would also appreciate any links anyone has discovered in their surfing. I have about 6 right now and just started this. I'll add to it as I recall some of the othes I have ran across.

Remember, this will be a potential list and I will leave up to you to decide if they are frauds or not. It will however include those with the red flags.

So anyone wanting to send me links privately (don't put them on this thread) please do so.

David Humm

01-11-2005, 01:03 PM

John,

Will you be including those found in Europe and the UK?

If you are I will forward those I'm aware of here and let you screen them for your criteria

Dave

L. Camejo

01-11-2005, 01:05 PM

Thanks to both Peters (R. and G.) for clarifying elements of my previous post.

It's so good to get the history and facts from folks who are near to the source.

As for 2-day 7th Dans - I think one's level is determined both by time spent maturing or "growing into" a rank as well as other technical and maybe political aspects at the higher dan levels.

Just my 2 cents.
LC:ai::ki:

aikidoc

01-11-2005, 01:45 PM

David: I will include any I find world wide.

Keep in mind I'm not claiming they are frauds but rather putting together a list of sites and people claiming to teach aikido with very questionable credentials or validated fraudulent credentials. Please don't send legitimate indepedent organizations with high rank in a recognized organization.

What I hope to do is put together a matrix with name, website, claimed rank, and why there are concerns about them. If any documented proof exists, I will also cite that as well. I will not publish this on any sites but will make it available one on one when requested with the disclaimer that I do not know whether the person is a fraud or not but the information is to be used only to evaluate claims by such instructors.

Also, if anyone knows how to validate military claims that would be useful as well. Some of these people have been known to make wild claims about their military backgrounds. In the karate environment, there have been sites posted showing when these people are researched their military claims were woefully lacking.

aikidoc

01-12-2005, 10:03 AM

I received a private e-mail from a poster who informed me of a really bad looking profile posted on a "personalities" section on a prominent aikido site. I thank him for the message. He had also informed Peter G. who was apparently going to talk with the website due to the absurdities posted (claimed a Tomiki/Shotokan Aikido rank from the IAF). I e-mailed the editor as well and indicated this had to be a joke. In addition to the ridiculous claims, rambling profile and the absurd information this person's posted profile looked like it was written on drugs (must have been a wild trip). It has now been pulled off the other site-see it works to point out the ego-maniacs and frauds sometimes. At least one bit the dust. :D

John Boswell

01-14-2005, 10:16 AM

What? You mean Tomiki Shudokan Aiki Karate isn't legit?

Dang. :(

***hides an old 15th dan cert. under the bed*** :D

aikidoc

01-15-2005, 03:21 PM

I want to thank all the posters and commenters for their valuable input. The thread generated more interest than I had anticipated. If anything, it has raised the level of awareness of many to the potential and the growing problem of aikido frauds. When we have more "10th" dans popping up in these groups than have been issued in the history of the art and so-called sokes increasing as well the awareness is good. This has already resulted in one fraud being kicked off a sister site and if it stimulates one potential aikidoka to rethink what they are learning or a prospective student to reconsider going with a blatant fraud then I feel we have accomplished something important.

We may have little more than the power of the media to draw the spotlight on the problem. However, if it helps keep them out of the art it is a worthy effort.

darin

01-16-2005, 09:41 AM

Yeah its not good when they claim to have been given a certain grade in a certain style by a certain person when its all crap, especially when they are taking people's hard earned cash. Then again to some people ignorance is bliss... John, you are definately right to expose these frauds. Especially where people are being exploited financially, emotionally or physically without thier knowing.

David Humm

01-17-2005, 08:51 AM

<smiles> at the above. Absolutely.

Rupert Atkinson

01-17-2005, 06:53 PM

I noticed that a number of instructors on the websites above had PhD's in MA. What exactly is that and where does one go to school to get it? Just curious.

In Korea, a couple of schools give out MA majors in Hapkido and such like. In fact, in Korea, it is often your thesis that determines what you label yourself, so if you study sports science and wrote an MA on Hapkido, then they might say they have an MA in Hapkido. But I think they actually do have MA courses in Hapkido, maybe even Ph.D. I know they also have univ. courses in bodyguard training but not sure if they can graduate with such. In Japan, there is also the Budo University...

Rupert Atkinson

01-17-2005, 07:32 PM

Incidentally, the problem of frauds has been around a long time - although of late it is becoming rather more ridiculous than I ever imagined. I wrote the following back in 1994 when I first made my website:

http://aikido-in-korea.com/nobo_jutsu.html

Tim Gerrard

01-19-2005, 06:41 AM

One quick way to discover frauds, go to the school's website and in it (if it is a "sokey-dokey" art) you should find a section justifying why they should be soke/grandmaster/hold 10+ dan grades. Plus I found one with a Grandmaster's council application form...Shame I don't have $125 burning a hole in my pocket...

rob_liberti

01-19-2005, 07:15 AM

You know, I haven't ever heard of one legitimate aikido person who is connected to a soke organization. Is there one example?

Also, I've about countries promoting people in aikido - as if they have any ability to judge aikido ability! That simply isn't fair to the poor person who has to live up to ability they don't have yet. Some poor guy (maybe a sandan by aikido standards) who was promoted to 5th dan by his country met Donovan sensei. Donovan sensei told me that he had no idea about this so initially he was just working out hard and not going very easy on him at all. I like Donovan sensei very much, but I'd sure hate to be on the recieving end of that!

I've also heard about people who were well respected godans that changed organizations and became instant nanadans. That's a little disturbing to me.

I'd still rather train with these teachers who have some actual aikido ability - just not what I would expect for the rank they advertise - than a charlitan, but I still say this is a lesser form of rank fraud.

Rob

mriehle

01-19-2005, 11:49 AM

I've also heard about people who were well respected godans that changed organizations and became instant nanadans. That's a little disturbing to me.

I'd still rather train with these teachers who have some actual aikido ability - just not what I would expect for the rank they advertise - than a charlitan, but I still say this is a lesser form of rank fraud.

Rob

Okay, this one is actually trickier than it initially seems.

To start with, a lot of MA organizations, Aikido included, award rank based on skill achievements up to a point and subsequent rank awards are more about contribution (teaching, promoting the art, etc.). I know that in Aikido, sandan is often the "skill threshold", though it seems like rokudan is used about as often.

Now, that isn't to say that a godan isn't likely to be better at the art than a sandan. I think the reasoning for doing things this way is: at some point real advancement in skill is not the responsibility of the teacher, and real improvement will show more in your contributions to others learning than in whatever you are doing on the mat.

But...

There are all kinds of other factors that can screw this idea up if you have the wrong expectations. Here's an example, sort of. I'm a shodan. I teach. There are several sandans who've attended classes I teach who've commented afterward that I had given them a new perspective on some aspect of Aikido. Does that mean I'm really better than the average shodan?

Nope.

What it means is that I'm a natural teacher (which I've known for years). So my perspective as a natural teacher makes it possible for me to offer something in the way of instruction to these guys who outrank me and, frankly, are much better at Aikido than I am.

It also matters where the threshold is. I had a teacher make a comment once about shodan's in the US being much better than shodan's in Japan. He is Japanese, so I thought this was significant. Fortunately, I didn't have to press him on the point because one of his senior students lept on that comment instantly. It turns out that his point was that we (in the US) tend to train very hard to achieve shodan and then slack off. He said that the sandan's in Japan are much better than they are in the US. I've observed that here in the US we often think of shodan as the threshold regardless of the standards of the organization. :rolleyes:

Another thing I've observed (in a completely unscientific way, of course) is that the lower that "skill" threshold the better the shodan's will be (and the nidan's, etc.) in general. I think that's because more is expected of a sandan in an organization that awards subsequent ranks based on contribution. If you're going to contribute, you'd better be good at the art to start with.

Of course, one way to contribute is money. Or marrying the right person (okay, now don't get started :eek: ). Or founding a school where no school existed before. These things do not require much in the way of a skill improvement, but they are (mostly) legitimate contributions.

What you should be able to count on from anyone with a rank higher than the threshold is that they be at least as good as or better than someone holding the threshold rank. In their organization.

Because if someone comes from an organization where rokudan is the threshold, holds a sandan and then moves to an organization where sandan is the threshold, the difference is likely to be *very* noticeable.

Also, why would a new organization recognize ranks based on contribution? This person didn't contribute to their organization. In one way you could say they were aiding and abetting the competition. So even if their skill level is up to snuff, why wouldn't you knock 'em down a rank or two? At least until they make a contribution to the new organization.

Of course, the situation you describe is exactly the opposite. Why did they award these people the new rank? Was it part of a "recognition" thing. "Thanks for coming in and saving our organization from almost certain ruin!" Okay, there's more than a touch of hyperbole there, but I wonder.

I wouldn't like to say bribery. No, I really wouldn't. That just never happens in Aikido schools. Can't possibly. Just isn't part of my reality.

"I reject your reality and substitute one of my own" - Adam Savage (Mythbusters)

aikidoc

01-19-2005, 12:07 PM

You know, I haven't ever heard of one legitimate aikido person who is connected to a soke organization. Is there one example?

I've also heard about people who were well respected godans that changed organizations and became instant nanadans. That's a little disturbing to me.
Rob

The rank inflation is an issue. The aikikai requires testing to yondan. I know some independent groups that test only to nidan and then everything is awarded by time in grade-that part in my mind really inflates rank over ability. Cutting testing off at nidan is way too early in my mind if you want to ensure quality. The skill needs to be there.

Fred Little

01-19-2005, 02:11 PM

aikidoc

01-21-2005, 08:40 PM

Here's a list of 10th dans in aikido from Kjarsten's website:

http://www.aikidofaq.com/misc/10dan.html

aikidoc

01-22-2005, 08:14 PM

I decided it was probably a good idea to walk my talk. Since I started this topic, I decided to go out and put two matrixes on my website: one is a chronology of the organizations I studied under-hopefully it is accurate. The second is a rank matrix identifying rank, organization, date tested where remembered, date official (sometimes takes several months), and the instructor.

I also put a Fraud statement in there as well. I don't know if this is the best way to go but I have nothing to hide so I thought I'd just do it.

aikidoc

01-23-2005, 08:49 PM

I finished putting a statement on my site. I have the choosing your school and a Fraud statement. On my instructor page, I put my organization lineage and my rank matrix. I am doing it to accurately document my history so anyone checking me out knows exactly my background.

Here's the link: http://members.cox.net/aikidoc1/

Click on the Aikido or O'Sensei's picture to enter. Go to instructors. Scroll down to the bottom of the page and click on the link (last item).

Let me know if anyone has any suggestions.

David Yap

01-26-2005, 08:04 PM

Hi John,

Good write-up. Lineage chart needs some improvement on consistency; for example, if you want show O Sensei/Student generation relationship, then K Tohei and Nidai Doshu should be on the same level since they were 1st generation students. Toyoda and Saotome were not direct students of O Sensei, they were the direct students of either K Tohei and Nidai Doshu when O Sensei was still alive, hence, they should be on the 2nd generation line.

Forget the Kyu history - the fact is you have already arrived (recognized as a yudansha), how you got there is not important. When I interview someone for a job, I look at his degree/diploma and transcripts (if necessary) and sometime his high school cert and it stops there, there is no point going to every grade down to nursery school. You don't need to be accountable for everything, over-disclosure is like stripping naked (that's the accountant in me talking :) )

That's my 2 sen comment.

David Y

aikidoc

01-26-2005, 09:03 PM

David Yap

01-26-2005, 09:38 PM

Here's my ranking of how they related.
O'Sensei
Doshu
Shihans
Senseis

Any other thoughts on this?

I still feel that if you intend to impress on lineage, then you should be consistent with lineage and not complicate the reader with rankings.

That my comment and it's your site

Cheers mate!!

aikidoc

01-26-2005, 10:32 PM

Peter Goldsbury

01-27-2005, 01:11 AM

Thanks for the feedback David. You are right-the kyu stuff was overkill so I removed it.

The Lineage chart was not intended to show generations as much as lines of authority. Although Tohei and Doshu were in the same generation, I viewed the lineage more along the lines of who had the authority. Then I put the shihan's on the next level regardless of rank (6th to 8th dan). Then the sensei's more along the same level regardless of rank. I was trying to keep it as condensed and uncomplicated as possible. I'm not real sure who is what generation since I don't have Stan's flow chart. Just my thoughts.

Here's my ranking of how they related.
O'Sensei
Doshu
Shihans
Senseis

Any other thoughts on this?

Dear John,

I have been watching from the sidelines and I think that what you are doing is very valuable and I think it is something that the IAF should consider using. I have a few other thoughts.

I think that to put shihans and senseis in the same category is to compare apples and oranges. In other words, all shihans are senseis but not all senseis are shihans. 'Sensei' is a general title that applies to all teachers from O Sensei downwards, but shihan is something more specific. Thus, I think it is incorrect to refer to yourself as Sensei Riggs on your web site. A sensei NEVER uses the title to refer to himself/herself, and the title usually follows the name; it does not precede it. I think Dr John Riggs would be perfectly acceptable as your aikido title on your web site.

Best regards,

David Yap

01-27-2005, 01:53 AM

So where does sandai doshu fall? Would he then be below the shihans on the lineage? Are you suggesting the lineage go by generation rather than heirarchy? I'm not sure how to lay it out on that basis since I don't know all the generations.

John,

Assuming Sandai Doshu learns from his father, then, he would be in same generation with the shihan who were taught by his father or K Tohei. Of course, at that level you can put him above the rest based on ranking. You can qualify/state in your chart that the lineage is based on the time/era the art was transmitted.

Again my 2 sen, now that's 6 sen you owe me (that's equivalent to one and half dime) :D

Regards

David

Rupert Atkinson

01-27-2005, 02:54 AM

So, where would the like of Shiodo Gozo be? Shihan? He is not an Aikikai Shihan - does Aikikai recognise him as Shihan? Perhaps in such cases, you follow the titles as used by other schools - Yoshinkan / Tomiki etc. At what levels doe their Sensei become Shihan?

Rupert Atkinson

01-27-2005, 03:10 AM

Shioda / Tomiki / Saito / Tohei - what do we call them? Shihan? They created their styles - I call them Sensei on my website - just changed a few to Shihan but it seems odd. Maybe I'll just stick with Sensei - far easier. What do you think?

And many others - Kenshiro Abe / Chiba Kazuo - are they Shihan too?

batemanb

01-27-2005, 04:39 AM

So where does sandai doshu fall? Would he then be below the shihans on the lineage? Are you suggesting the lineage go by generation rather than heirarchy? I'm not sure how to lay it out on that basis since I don't know all the generations.

Doshu will always be above Shihan, whether he is ni dai doshu, san dai doshu or ju dai doshu. Doshu is the head of the organisation, usually a family inherited title, regardless of age and experience.

Regards

Bryan

aikidoc

01-27-2005, 06:03 AM

Dear John,

I have been watching from the sidelines and I think that what you are doing is very valuable and I think it is something that the IAF should consider using. I have a few other thoughts.

I think that to put shihans and senseis in the same category is to compare apples and oranges. In other words, all shihans are senseis but not all senseis are shihans. 'Sensei' is a general title that applies to all teachers from O Sensei downwards, but shihan is something more specific. Thus, I think it is incorrect to refer to yourself as Sensei Riggs on your web site. A sensei NEVER uses the title to refer to himself/herself, and the title usually follows the name; it does not precede it. I think Dr John Riggs would be perfectly acceptable as your aikido title on your web site.

Best regards,

Peter, thanks for your comments. I had used the Dr. John Riggs before and several people suggesting taking it out as it was not an aikido title. Is it appropriate to refer to my assistant instructors as sensei?

On the shihan/sensei issue are your referring to the lineage chart? If so, how would you suggest doing it? I am trying to reflect a lineage in each group I studied under. My thought was to organize by heirarchial rank- O'Sensei, doshus, shihans, senseis.

Thank you on the comments of this being valuable. My thoughts are if you have nothing to hide throw it out there.

Peter Goldsbury

01-27-2005, 06:55 AM

Peter, thanks for your comments. I had used the Dr. John Riggs before and several people suggesting taking it out as it was not an aikido title. Is it appropriate to refer to my assistant instructors as sensei?

I do not think so. If you were to follow Japanese custom, as at the Aikikai Hombu, then the list would be:
Doshu,
Shihan
Shidoin
Fukushidoin

However, in the local organization, the instructors and those in charge are all referred to as shidousha (instructors) or dojo sekininsha (hard to translate - it means those responsible for the dojo). The person in overall charge is referred to as Dojo-cho or Shibu-cho (Dojo Head / Branch Dojo Head).

Of course I know that Japanese custom is not always in sync with American custom, where it seems that sensei and sempai are used much more commonly than in Japan. However, to me it grates when these terms are used in a manner divorced from their Japanese context.

On the shihan/sensei issue are your referring to the lineage chart? If so, how would you suggest doing it? I am trying to reflect a lineage in each group I studied under. My thought was to organize by heirarchial rank- O'Sensei, doshus, shihans, senseis.

The problem with the lineage chart is that it deals with individuals and not organizations and mixes functions with titles. As such it does not mirror the Aikikai Hombu's current thinking. Thus, I am the chief instructor of a group of dojos in Holland because I am the senior member of the group's technical committee. All decisions on ranks etc are made by the committee and communicated to Hombu by the president of the organization. The Aikikai has recognized the organization and so accepts the decisions taken by its techical committee.
So the list would be:
Doshu
Hombu
XXX Aikido Federation
Chief Instructor of XXX Aikido Federation. or
Instructor, YYY Branch Dojo of XXX Federation

I think a lineage chart would be somewhat different. For example, I could trace my lineage with a list of successive teachers\and their links with the Hombu, or with a list of those who have awarded my dan ranks, from shodan to my present rank. It would be the individual teacher that matters here, rather than the position or title that he/she has. They might be shihan, and in fact all are, but they would all be referred to as Sensei in certain situations.

Best regards,

PAG

aikidoc

01-27-2005, 07:47 AM

I do not think so. If you were to follow Japanese custom, as at the Aikikai Hombu, then the list would be:
Doshu,
Shihan
Shidoin
Fukushidoin
PAG

I see. Sensei is a general title from what I have read. Whereas the above are specific levels within that title. I have seen organizations stick the sensei title in after the shidoin. I don't know if that accurate but it would seem strange. I do recall a CD section on Japanese (just starting to learn a little in my spare time) referring to using the term kyoshi (I believe) in referring to oneself as a teacher. Is that correct?

However, in the local organization, the instructors and those in charge are all referred to as shidousha (instructors) or dojo sekininsha (hard to translate - it means those responsible for the dojo). The person in overall charge is referred to as Dojo-cho or Shibu-cho (Dojo Head / Branch Dojo Head).

Of course I know that Japanese custom is not always in sync with American custom, where it seems that sensei and sempai are used much more commonly than in Japan. However, to me it grates when these terms are used in a manner divorced from their Japanese context.PAG

I understand your points on keeping things traditional with regards to how it is done in Japan. However, I see very few websites here where the instructors are not referred to as sensei.

The problem with the lineage chart is that it deals with individuals and not organizations and mixes functions with titles. As such it does not mirror the Aikikai Hombu's current thinking. Thus, I am the chief instructor of a group of dojos in Holland because I am the senior member of the group's technical committee. All decisions on ranks etc are made by the committee and communicated to Hombu by the president of the organization. The Aikikai has recognized the organization and so accepts the decisions taken by its techical committee.
So the list would be:
Doshu
Hombu
XXX Aikido Federation
Chief Instructor of XXX Aikido Federation. or
Instructor, YYY Branch Dojo of XXX Federation

I think a lineage chart would be somewhat different. For example, I could trace my lineage with a list of successive teachers\and their links with the Hombu, or with a list of those who have awarded my dan ranks, from shodan to my present rank. It would be the individual teacher that matters here, rather than the position or title that he/she has. They might be shihan, and in fact all are, but they would all be referred to as Sensei in certain situations.PAG

So, would it make more sense to do as I did in the lineage chart or would changes be recommended. I'm evolving this as I get input and want to make it reflective of how Hombu would do it or how it would be done appropriately. However, I also want to be able to show my training lineage in a fashion that appropriately documents the flow. Perhaps I need to have a small chart showing organizations and another showing instructors.

Thanks for your input. It is good to have someone that understands the Japanese perspective and help keep us from looking too silly. Often times when one does not understand the cultural context, things are made up simply by translating to the English without understanding correct terms or usage. I'm sure we get laughed at when we do this. Interestingly, some of the frauds we have discussed on the thread really botch things like made up certificates when they try to be Japanese sounding with little knowledge of what they are doing.

David Yap

01-27-2005, 10:10 AM

John,

I think you are moving away from your objectives. Your prime objective is to represent yourself and your dojo as legitimate. Either you go straight to the point - I belong to this organization who is headed by this particular person and this organization is affiliated to this international body headquartered at X city, X country headed by this person who was a direct student of the founder/who is the grandson of the founder (delete where applicable) or put in a lineage chart.

If you choose to put in a lineage chart which says/shows, " I study with this person who learned the art from this person and whom himself learned from this person... Even for lineage purpose, you should forget your past instructors, it is your present instructor and organization that matters. You representing to others that your current organization is legitimate and this legitimacy gives credibility to you. If you try to put as much information as you can that you cannot organize or manage them it can only create confusion. It is the PRESENT that matters most. I think your problem(s) is/are caused by your genuine attempt to create a "template" for others to follow. My advice is don't, I think everyone can manage on their own to prove their legitimacy . The point is if your current rank is legitimate, then you are legitimate; if your current rank is not legitimate, then it is not legitimate period. Past considerations (legitimacy) are not considerations (present legitimacy) as an attorney would put it.

Sensei in kanji (Chinese or Japanese) means "borned first" or simply "the one who comes before", hence the person with prior knowledge. If you are my teacher, with respect I would address you as Riggs sensei (simply translated Mr. Riggs - the one who comes before me/the one who has more knowledge than me). It sounds absolutely silly if you address yourself as Riggs who comes before me/the one who has more knowledge than me and that person(s) would be the Riggs elder than you (your dad, uncles, elder siblings, etc). It is simply a "title" used to address an elder person or to a person who will impart knowledge to you.

In your context, you attempt to write in a 3rd person role. You should bear in mind that writing a testimonial about your own self is not exactly a testimonial at all. A testimonial should at its best be written by someone who knows you. If your representation is in the form of a CV, then it would be done with humility (I am not saying you are not :)). You should distance yourself from the frauds. If you notice, frauds have big inflated egos, they address themselves with titles like Soke, Kancho, etc.

I do apologize if you find my comments offensive in anyway. They are not meant to be. My bluntness has put me in hot soup in the past.

Regards

David Y

David Yap

01-27-2005, 10:45 AM

I should:
snip...You are representing to others that your current organization is legitimate and this legitimacy gives credibility to your to current rank. If you try to put too much information that you cannot organize/manage them it may only create confusion...snip
and
snip..When you attempt to write as a 3rd person, you should bear in mind that writing a testimonial about your ownself is not exactly a testimonial at all. A testimonial should at its best be written by someone who knows you. If your representation is in the form of a CV, then it should be done with humility (I am not saying you are not :)). snip

Sorry. My editing was beyond the time permitted.

David

aikidoc

01-27-2005, 11:48 AM

Thanks David. No I did not find your comments offensive. I was trying to write in the 3rd person which is what I have seen done on other sites. Probably would be better off just writing it neutral. The title sensei is used on sites quite regularly although as you and PAG have pointed out incorrectly.

kironin

01-27-2005, 12:11 PM

I understand your points on keeping things traditional with regards to how it is done in Japan. However, I see very few websites here where the instructors are not referred to as sensei.

actually, if you look at me website
http://www.houstonkiaikido.org/

You will see that I have avoided use the term sensei for myself.
I think on my bio page you get a decent sense of my lineage and associations and experience without a complicated listing of my rank history.

I appreciate what you have done on your website, but it seems overly complicated for someone visiting your site who doesn't know much. (It's better than the first try but still a lot to read.)

aikidoc

01-27-2005, 12:24 PM

Thank for the feedback Craig-I tend to be overly detailed sometimes. I am working on paring it down and have done so quite a bit over the last couple of days. I do feel the dan rank chart however provides a simple but accurate depiction of my history which can be verified. I'm doing this to set an example. My hope is it may make some of the frauds think twice about slapping the aikido label on their art. I'm still evolving and paring down the site. I know the lineage needs work. I liked your bio section and am in the process of rewriting mine.

You did a good job of not using sensei to refer to yourself on yours. However, I ran across a recent 6th dan aikikai and they had it all over the place. Hopefully, over the next couple of weeks I will continue to get things pared down (you should have seen it earlier :)).

aikidoc

01-27-2005, 12:55 PM

P.S. It looks like it is more with the larger type (yours is small). It helps us visually deteriorating older ones read it. :)

Peter Goldsbury

01-27-2005, 09:13 PM

I see. Sensei is a general title from what I have read. Whereas the above are specific levels within that title. I have seen organizations stick the sensei title in after the shidoin. I don't know if that accurate but it would seem strange. I do recall a CD section on Japanese (just starting to learn a little in my spare time) referring to using the term kyoshi (I believe) in referring to oneself as a teacher. Is that correct?
As you probably know, Japanese is a language loaded with honorifics and humble modes of speech and the antennae of most Japanese are notoriously well-tuned for the use of such honorifics. Thus, there are loads of terms which denote 'teacher' or 'instructor', each with a nuance depending on the characters used and its place on the honorifics scale. In fact, every single meeting at Hiroshima University is an exercise in the use of honorifics. Thus, no one, absolutely no one, will ever use the term 'sensei' to refer himself/herself. Sometimes a new foreign teacher, who is not aware of this will refer to himself as 'Sensei' and you can almost feel the collective reaction to the mistake. Usually the least honorific 'kyoin' is preferred. 'Kyoshi' and 'koshi' are both instructor categories with differing nuances, as is shidosha and shidoin. However, there are no specific levels within the title of 'sensei', as you have suggested. One is either sensei or not, with no gradations. Thus, all the 2,000-odd members of the teaching faculty are referred to by their colleagues or students as 'Sensei', regardless of their titles and categories.

I understand your points on keeping things traditional with regards to how it is done in Japan. However, I see very few websites here where the instructors are not referred to as sensei.

Yes, the problem for me is the degree to which Japanese has to be imperialistic in the world of aikido, which is why I was reluctant to say anything until I had seen your web site. One could perhaps argue that 'sensei' has been transplanted to other places and that, having become somewhat anglicized, it can be used as the new users want, not as it is used at home. Because I live here, and my own Japanese honorific antenna also functions, I have a bias in favour of using the term in its original context. But I am aware that others might not share this view.

Best regards,

aikidoc

01-27-2005, 09:53 PM

Your knowledge of Japanese is very helpful for us who do not speak the language and make a lot of faux pas when using terms. I appreciate your comments.

From an Aikido perspective:
1. If I was responding to a question by stating I was an Aikido instructor, would I use the term kyoin (bear with me: watashi wa kyonin desu-not sure where the aikido would go). I am just learning so I don't know if that would be correct. Or, would I use the word shidousha?
2. Would I refer to my assistant instructors as shidousha as well or fuku-shidoin? Dont mean to bother you for a language lession. I think the whole of America is likely using things incorrectly on our websites-probably due to our lack of knowledge of the language.

I am working on cleaning up the sensei issues.

batemanb

01-28-2005, 01:19 AM

I am working on cleaning up the sensei issues.

Hi John,

Like Peter, it's a pet peeve of mine when Japanese titles are used incorrectly in western dojos. I read your bio yesterday but didn't say anyjthing, it reads a lot better today :).

I'm currently writing a small (growing fast) piece for our club newsletter on Sensei, Sempai and Kohai. It borrows heavily from a piece written by Wayne Muramoto at Furyu.com (http://www.furyu.com/onlinearticles/Defs2.html), although I am rewording it a little, modifying it and adding to it :).

Regards

Bryan

Charles Hill

01-28-2005, 02:09 AM

John,

I think it helps to remember that "sensei" is a title given "up" that is, from someone lower to someone higher. Titles like "shihan," "shidouin," and the like are given down. They are like "phd" which is awarded from a organization with power to an individual without that power.

Personally, I don`t see what is wrong with "head instructor" and "assistant instructor."

Prof. Goldsbury,

Since we are on the topic, what would be the difference between fukushidouin and junshidouin?

Thank you,
Charles

Rupert Atkinson

01-28-2005, 03:12 AM

OK - Now, if you are into the terminology, here is a chichi-soke, if you scroll down FAR enough, you will find he is Aikido 6th Dan. Now, something tells me he will not be registered at Aikikai Hombu. Maybe it is the sixteen other 10th Dans listed on his page.

http://www.usjiujitsu.org/OushiBio.htm

Also from that site:
Disclaimer
The United States Jiu Jitsu Alliance will not tolerate or accept any unprofessional behavior...

Not only that, he seems to also be a 4th Dan at a style I made up myself while waiting for a bus - Nobo-jutsu (He calls it Buki-Nobo-Jutsu - must be a branch school -where are my dues?). I introduced the link to Nobo-jutsu earlier I think. Here it is again:
http://aikido-in-korea.com/nobo-jutsu.html

Is that site for real?

batemanb

01-28-2005, 03:58 AM

Chichi huh!

For anyone who understands Japanese, it's probably a very appropriate word for the chap :D

He must have to charge a fortune in class fees in order to pay for that impressive display of certificates :p

http://usjiujitsu.org/v-web/gallery/oushibiography/UMAI_Rank_6th_Dan_Aikido

What the hell does oushi mean? I can find reference to anime, and to it in a computer game (shinobi), it can translate as bull or ox, or apparently even violent death, but I can't find any reference to it being a title, or being used as a title by anyone other than this chap.

Maybe this reference to plums is a more appropriate use?

OUSHI-WASE (pronounced "wishy-washy") A new introduction from Japan. Looks very promising in early trials in Hudson Valley, NY and in Vineland, Ontario. SOLD OUT for 2004

OK, just been through 20 pages of Google search results, with nothing further to add, am now bored :)

I think I'll go and print up a 6th Dan certificate for myself for something to do :).

rgds

Bryan

Peter Goldsbury

01-28-2005, 05:54 AM

Prof. Goldsbury,

Since we are on the topic, what would be the difference between fukushidouin and junshidouin?

Thank you,
Charles

I think in English, the closest sense to 'jun' would be something like 'provisional', 'quasi-' or 'as if..' For example, a few years ago the Aikikai wanted to change the rule of one recognized aikido organization per country. They did not just go ahead and change it; as a first step they introduced a new category, which they called 'jun-kounin'. The English term agreed for this category, after much discussion and argument, was 'provisional recognition'.

As you can see, there is a different meaning here from 'fuku-', which means 'assistant' or 'deputy'.

Actually, I took a look at the Aikikai's English web site today (aikikai.or.jp) the word 'sensei' does not appear anywhere on the entire site, so far as I can see.

Best regards,

aikidoc

01-28-2005, 06:43 AM

Rupert: Your site is funny. I imagine a real humorous site could be developed with some of the stuff I see on these sites. That guy had more high ranks-including aikido 6th dan-than one can imagine. Red flag. Red flag.

Chichi in Spanish-doesn't that mean breasts. So he's the family inheritor of the art of breasts? Hmmm.Or would that be better interpreted as the head boob?

batemanb

01-28-2005, 06:50 AM

aikidoc

01-28-2005, 10:56 AM

Oh brother, another one for my list: Alliance of United Aikido Federation (red flag), United Martial Arts Alliance Sokeship, Head Founders, Head Families Council (red flags, red flags, red flags).
He has 5 10th dans in arts he created, 6 8th dans, 2 7th dans, 7 6th dans, 5 4th dans and 12 2nd dans. There's at least 35 red flags. Half the certificates were hand written information-seems a little unprofessional or questionable.

Chichi in my Japanese dictionary means father or milk. So if we use Chichi Soke does that mean father head or head father (sounds redundant)? At least he only claims 6th dan rank in aikido and does not profess to teach it.

aikidoc

01-28-2005, 10:59 AM

"What the hell does oushi mean?" Byran I got the impression it was being used as a first name and not a title. Although, he was refered to as Jay in other places. I couldn't find it in my little Japanese dictionary.

David Humm

01-28-2005, 11:45 AM

Chichi Oushi Sandlin

Doesn't that sound like a Brazillian Transvestite Showgirl/man?

:)

Dave

batemanb

01-28-2005, 12:49 PM

Hi John,

I was just discussing this with my wife, who is native Japanese. Apart from the fact that these type of things (people giving themselves titles, especially incorrect titles) drives her to despair :( We'd both come to the same conclusion on chichi, although it is also a slang word for nipple, hence my first post on him i.e. he's a "t!t". I also came to the conclusion that he was using Oushi as a name rather than a title, perhaps due to his size he is referring to himself as "bull", hence the title father bull. I don't really know, I don't really care, although I did uncharacteristically waste some time digging into it :(. The only consolation was the laughter it gave me :D.

rgds

Bryan

spinecracker

01-28-2005, 01:54 PM

I had a good look at the website of the gentleman currently being discussed, and I wonder how you can get a dan grade (Japanese term) in Tai-Chi-Chuan (a Chinese style). Please enlighten me on this subject?

I am not a mean man at heart, so I have no wish to mock this person (indeed, it would go against my Christian beliefs and the loving spirit of aikido), but I can't help but picture in my mind this guy, as a stuntman on Knight Rider (see the website) getting beaten up by David Haselhoff - I would be rolling on the floor in hysterics if I wasn't weeping. :sorry: :sorry: :D

Fred Little

01-28-2005, 02:14 PM

E-Budo has a "Baffling Budo" Forum for cases like this one.

Sometimes such pages are made by aesthetically challenged folks with real skills.

Sometimes an entry in "Baffling Budo" can move to the "Bad Budo" section.

But the duck test is enough for me, and if it quacks like a duck, there's no need to inquire further.

Best,

Fred Little

Demetrio Cereijo

01-28-2005, 04:05 PM

Chichi in Spanish-doesn't that mean breasts. So he's the family inheritor of the art of breasts? Hmmm.Or would that be better interpreted as the head boob?

Nope.

Chichi is located "south the hara". :)

Charles Hill

01-28-2005, 06:00 PM

There was a bit on a Japanese comedy show a few years back where a young woman with ample bosum would go up to guys in a park and ask, "Would you massage my chichi?" They`d say yes and she`d leave, bringing back an old man. They then would have to massage her "father."

Prof. Goldsbury,

Thank you for the information.

Charles

aikidoc

01-28-2005, 09:01 PM

The site above is a good example of the certificate madness that originates in some of these organizations. The amount of paper generated between dad and son would just about build a house. It's interesting to note that the son created the jiu jitsu alliance which recognizes the dad and awards him a bunch of his certificates. I guess they want to keep it in the family. Then there's the master's degree in reality defense awareness or something like that.

Now to be perfectly honest, some of the videos weren't half bad-decent breaking stuff. Although the take downs could use less of the bouncing-looks like bing bing richochet rabbit. I don't know if they were trying to imitate Ali or what. I did find it funny in the one take down demonstrated the uke (master) told the attacker when to kick.

Rupert Atkinson

01-28-2005, 10:04 PM

Chichi means father (amongst other things) ; Oushi - could that be O-ushi = honourable cow :)

aikidoc

01-29-2005, 07:06 AM

I redid the lineage chart on my site more along organizational lines to see if that works better. It seems to make more sense and shows the two major branches I studied under and the spin offs in the Ki Society branch.

aikidoc

01-29-2005, 08:16 PM

The 6th dan in aikido on the site mentioned above is interesting. He was awarded it by UMAA Founder who held two 5th dans in aikido (combat aikido and this sites style: http://www.ndcma.com/SokeJorgeLuisGarcia-Ortiz.html). Another one added to my list.

Bronson

01-31-2005, 06:16 AM

wendyrowe

01-31-2005, 06:26 AM

Check this out. Over on Ebay you can get a VIDEO SERIES (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=79780&item=7130598193&rd=1) in Combat Aikijujutsu that comes with a black belt certificate :freaky:

Bronson

Sounds great!! I'll hang it next to my Brain Surgeon certificate as soon as I finish watching "Combat Brain Surgery."

batemanb

01-31-2005, 06:36 AM

Check this out. Over on Ebay you can get a VIDEO SERIES (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=79780&item=7130598193&rd=1) in Combat Aikijujutsu that comes with a black belt certificate :freaky:

Bronson

And all for only $25! An absolute bargain. And someone's already bid for it :rolleyes: :crazy:

Bryan

aikidoc

01-31-2005, 12:30 PM

Hopefully, this thread has raised the issue enough that we won't see mail order aikido shodans. You still have to wait until you are 10th degree sokes for that :D . What is scary is they probaby think they are qualified to teach once they complete the mail order course.

akiy

01-31-2005, 12:44 PM

Hi folks,

Since I'm ringing the bells on the AikiWiki, I thought I'd suggest we could add this sort of thing in the styles and organizations section of the AikiWiki?

http://www.aikiweb.com/wiki/styles/home

Although I would rather not have a list of "Fraudulent Aikido Organizations" or "Fraudulent Aikido Instructors," I think having a document there (like the one John is trying to write up) that may help people choose a respectable aikido dojo would be a nice addition there.

Also, it looks like we've started naming specific individuals and organizations in this thread. Too bad, I think, as this thread has seemingly drifted from talking about the ideas to talking about specific instances...

-- Jun

aikidoc

01-31-2005, 01:09 PM

Sorry Jun. It has been remarkably controlled but it's sometimes hard not to slip. Back on topic please. I will post what I have written up on your wiki.

aikidoc

01-31-2005, 02:04 PM

OK. I tried putting up a section in the Styles and nothing comes out. Is there a secret to this. I'm not a computer wiz-I type ok but that's about it.

akiy

01-31-2005, 02:16 PM

Hi John,

Let me move the discussion regarding adding this into the AikiWiki to the AikiWiki discussion (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7459) thread. Please jump over there for my reply...

-- Jun

aikidoc

01-31-2005, 03:43 PM

I posted something there so lets see if it works ok.

aikidoc

05-23-2005, 07:10 PM

One thing I'm noticing with some of the sites I am documenting is that some of the people developing their own styles of aikido have an aiki-jitsu or hapkido background. Just for the record, even though the kanji for hapkido is apparently the same, it does not qualify you to make up a style of aikido. Geez. These people are pathetic. I didn't mean to revive this but I was just surfing some of my "potential" fraud list and run across one of these. The guy goes from master status in Hapkido and now suddenly he's a grandmaster 10th dan in aikido. I guess it sells better.

tedehara

05-24-2005, 01:17 PM

...The guy goes from master status in Hapkido and now suddenly he's a grandmaster 10th dan in aikido. I guess it sells better.As I've noted the title Grandmaster originally came from chess.
Nicholas II, the Tsar of Russia, organized the 1914 tournament in St. Petersburg. He invited all the greatest players in the world. The top five players were given the title Grandmaster. I guess that means he is not only good at aikido, but also an accomplished chess master.
:rolleyes:

Paul Smith

08-12-2005, 06:32 AM

Oh my.

I was just browsing a bit more on the word oushi, I found Chichi Oushi Sandlin's website. A very intersting number of photographs. I'm not sure which one I like best, the lilac dogi or the camouflage dogi?

http://usjiujitsu.org/sandlinryu_gallery.html

The only reason I've come back into this is I just did a search for him on e-budo, found this. The tears of mirth are still flowing and my tummy hurts from laughing so much (I swear that is one of the Hanson brothers :D)

http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=27357&highlight=sandlin

Laughing my @$*! off

Bryan

Oh, my. I note the man is the soke of his family-ryu Ketsugo, 10th dan as well:

sandlin bio (http://www.usjiujitsu.org/OushiBio.htm)

When I was a lad, I studied ketsugo, "Har Bro Dojo Ketsugo School of Self Defense. As far as I know this is the only other time in my life I have seen the word. It is an amalgamation of, oh, I don't know. When I was a kid I thought it was the best. I especially liked "O'Sensei" Harold Brosius's use of hypnosis to cause people to be stiff as a board between two chairs, or breaking a board on his head before delighted audiences.

I am grateful to "O'Sensei" Brosius for introducing me to the "arts" some 30+ years ago. But I have had a bad taste in my mouth the rest of my life for our propensity in America for all things in "tastes" and "bits." I think that is what led me to a humble center in Chicago, walking by one day, peering in, to see a severe, and laughing Japanese instructor - Toyoda Sensei, and I knew tradition, and home, was here.

Paul

Roy

08-13-2005, 06:57 AM

That Sandlin dude might very well have the highest MA credentials in the universe :D Love the 70s-80s pics

crbateman

08-13-2005, 07:05 AM

I think that is what led me to a humble center in Chicago, walking by one day, peering in, to see a severe, and laughing Japanese instructor - Toyoda Sensei, and I knew tradition, and home, was here.Paul, Toyoda Sensei was one of the most jovial and animated instructors around. You were lucky to have had the opportunity to train with him. He went out WAY before his time...

aikidoc

08-13-2005, 10:39 AM

Good Grief. 6th dan Aikido United Martial Arts Alliance. Now there's a major Aikido organization. Low thyroid I presume.

Rupert Atkinson

08-13-2005, 04:50 PM

crbateman

08-13-2005, 05:13 PM

Call the cops! I been had! I got my 10th Dan certificate on eBay for $25.00, but it didn't come with no damned VIDEO! :grr:

Shannon Frye

09-20-2005, 11:37 AM

Research is the best defense against fraud. Nowadays, with the internet, it much easier than when I started in martial arts (1982). Some pitfalls that prospective students can fall in, especially with AIkido, is not really knowing what Aikido is in respect to other arts. You watch The Karate Kid, you know the basics of karate, you watch a Jackie Chan movie and see what Kung Fu is like. But, you watch a Segal movie, see all the whoopin going on, and then are started by the contrast of walking into a Aikido dojo.

Displayed accredidation is also another problem. It does indeed add a level of authenticity to the dojo/teacher, but can easily be faked. Actual authentic rank certifications/certifications of affiliation tend to use Japanese/Chinese, but if you can't read these words, they just "look nice".

Just for fun, I started to think of how easy it is to "fake a dojo". A rented place for the dojo, city issued business license, a few printed out "fake" rank certificates, found a "fake" organization (ex: The Virginia Martial Arts Rank and Certification Association- I made this up), then get a website for both. Any prospective student would then see flashy certificates in the dojo( in languages they cabnt read) and websites that seem to back up the credibility. Even though they researched the place, they still may be fooled.

WIth so many martial arts out there, it's nice to see that Aikido has a credible and traceable history, and that no matter what "style" you may practice, it is all traced back to one man and one place.

Shannon

Roy Dean

09-20-2005, 12:00 PM

Some Aikidoka inflate their rank beyond Aikido. Check out this thread for the whole story:

http://www.jiujitsugear.com/forum/index.php?topic=49765.0;all

When pressed for information about his BJJ lineage, the e-mail response included the following:

..."Matt holds a 3rd Degree Black Belt in BJJ and a 5th Degree Black Belt in Gendai Goshin Budo Jujutsu and a 4th degree Black Beltin Renzoku Jiu-Jitsu as well as running the Midwest Grapplers Challenge events.

Thanks for your interest.

Master Williams"

Now there's a sale on the Banks American Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu Black Belt Home Study Course (as opposed to the Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu course offered a few weeks ago). What a deal! And no test fees for the first 25 students!

http://www.blackbeltinyou.com/id22.html

aikidoc

09-20-2005, 04:49 PM

http://www.blackbeltinyou.com/id17.html

Oh brother, who is this Sensei Frank Williams of the Kazoku Dojos and Northmont Martial arts. He is selling a course for $499.95 to get you to godan in aikido by home study. And to think I wasted all these years on the mat. This one is definitely in the right forum section. They have a half off September special-buy two and get one free.

This is the first home study get your black belt in aikido I have run across-now we are big time. The mail order guys have elevated us to home study status. Do I hear a duck?

Someone ought to take this guy on for fraud. He doesn't even claim a black belt in aikido yet awards them to godan.

Mashu

09-20-2005, 05:03 PM

Someone might be able to get them to remove the O'Sensei picture but other than that what could you do?

aikidoc

09-20-2005, 05:06 PM

Here is more on this guy:
Education
Concord High School, Concord, NC: Graduated 1977
University of Maryland: Graduated 1988 - Bachelors of Arts in Business Management
Troy State University: Graduated 1990 - Master of Science in Education
LaSalle University: Graduated 2002 - PhD in Business Administration (MAIL ORDER PH'D)
Martial Arts Experience and Credentials
I began Tae Kwon Do training in 1973
I began teaching in 1982
I began teaching full time in 1990
I lived and trained in various martial arts in Okinawa, Japan for a total of 12 years.
My instructor in Okinawa Shorin Ryu Kenshinkan was Grand Master Fusei Kise in Okinawa.
I am currently the President and Founder of the Universal Martial Arts Association. (RED FLAG)
I am the Director of The Family Karate Center, Inc.
I am the National Director for the United States Martial Arts Association for Okinawa-Te.
I am currently a Board Member of the World Karate Union.

Black Belts in: (RED FLAGS)
Nanadan (7th Degree Black Belt)- Okinawa-Te Karate
Rokudan (6th Degree Black Belt) - Shorin Ryu Karate and Kobudo
Sandan (3rd Degree Black Belt) - Zanshin Ryu Jujitsu
Nidan (2d Degree Black Belt) - Judo
Nidan (2d degree Black Belt) - Tae Kwon Do
Shodan (1st Degree Black Belt) - Motobu-Ha Shito Ryu Karate Kobudo
Shodan (1st degree Black Belt) - Matsukaze Ryu Jujitsu

Here's more: Sensei Williams has continued to study through the years and currently holds Rokudan Ranking in Idai Ryu. Idai Ryu is traditionally a family system and it is the main system sensei teaches his own daughters. Sensei Williams holds Black Belt ranks in ARC Ryu Combat Karate-Soke, Renzoku Jiu-Jitsu-Rokudan, Kempo Karate-Godan and Instructor Grade Ranks in law enforcement and military defensive tactics and weapons and the rank of Guru (teacher) in Sandata Ng Arnis/Kali. Sensei Williams has been inducted into 4 Black Belt Halls of Fame.

Impressive. I wonder how many he made up himself.

aikidoc

09-20-2005, 05:08 PM

He's selling this tripe on e-Bay and getting lots of positive feedback (probably from himself). You probably couldn't even get him to take down O'Sensei's picture.

Mashu

09-20-2005, 05:15 PM

I was surprised when I checked this thread that you could name the frauds you found or experienced. Are there rules for this? Certain species, number of antlers, season,.....

samurai_kenshin

09-20-2005, 06:20 PM

Activates my BS alarm so much I've had to turn it off

mathewjgano

09-20-2005, 08:12 PM

I don't know about anyone specific and will always try to give the benefit of the doubt. Maybe someone is just superb natural and can attain high proficency in a few months or years. Probably not of course. It's frustrating to see empty methods and shiney but meaningless awards passed off as "verification" but ultimately it's up to the individual to teach themselves about the world around them. That includes learning about "frauds," whether they be aware of their phoney balogne or sincerely think they're the cat's meow. Teach where you can the best you can. That's all any of us can do.

Rupert Atkinson

09-20-2005, 10:48 PM

Impressive. I wonder how many he made up himself.

Actually, not that impressive. Take a look over on E-Budo - bad budo section - and you'll find guys claiming ten times that list - no exaggeration. By comparison, this guy's just a beginner, and almost credible. I would want to see him before I spoke against him.

Charles Hill

09-21-2005, 12:37 AM

I believe that the more this kind of crap goes on, the better it is for the martial arts. I know several people with high ranks from very respected organizations who are well below par in martial skills. The more these bozos give themselves rank and promote themselves all over the place, the more people will stop looking at rank and start looking at what individuals can actually do. On one of the links from this thread, an individual has actually given himself a phd from a (non credited) university that he made himself! His website actually lists his name with a "Dr." in front of it!

Charles

aikidoc

09-21-2005, 07:02 AM

We have been trying to keep names out of this and quite successfully. As to mentioning names we only posted what was out there. I contacted Mr. Williams regarding the mail-order godan. Here was my e-mail to him: rather blunt. As well as his response. I haven't yet checked to see if he is off the radar screen.

-----Original Message-----
From: Dr. John Riggs <aikidoc1@yahoo.com>
To: fwwgodan@aol.com
Sent: Tue, 20 Sep 2005 16:11:19 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Aikido

You sir are an embarrassment to the art of Aikido. From what I can tell, you hold no legitimate rank in the art and yet are offering a home study course up to godan. People like you give all the arts a bad name.

His response:
Sir, though I normally ignore emails of such nature, I had no knowledge of what you were talking about, so I was curious. After checking the Blackbeltinyou web site, I saw the Master's package on both Aikido and Aiki Jujutsu. Neither were approved or allowed to be put on that site as we have several web sites around the world. Another company and two other instructors do our web hosting and market listings. I am not an Aikido stylist, Sensei Reser is. I am a Aiki Jujutsu Stylist and Jujutsu. I contacted the web hoster and had both packages pulled as you can read. We only allow as you put it, legitimate instructors in their arts to offer home study courses. If they do not have the rank to offer the art or to the level at which they wish to offer, then we do not allow them to offer systems through our organization. I have students all over the world and Dojos around the country and can understand your being upset. However, I do and have been in the arts for over 30 years with all the credentials to back it up and then some. I called Sensei Reser and informed him not to list things without the permission to do so. I can not for the life of me understand why the instructors put this package together and then listed it thinking it would fly with me. I would like to apologize for any heart ache this may have caused for you. I travel a lot and have not had the time to keep up with all the sites so I assigned the duties to others. I will not make the same mistake twice. Again thank you for the information and have a nice evening.

Master Williams

aikidoc

09-21-2005, 07:18 AM

P.S. I just checked and this stuff is still on his site, contrary to what he said about both packages being pulled.

rob_liberti

09-21-2005, 09:14 AM

He called himself Master Williams. That's a red flag unless he is under 12.

aikidoc

09-21-2005, 09:41 AM

I e-mailed him in response to his previous letter. Here is my response and his reply.
-----Original Message-----
From: Dr. John Riggs <aikidoc1@yahoo.com>
To: fwwgodan@aol.com
Sent: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 04:53:43 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Aikido

Thank you for your response. Aikido is one of the few arts trying to maintain legitimate rank structures. I tried to find information about your Sensei Reser and could not-apparently he did not register with any mainstream organizations. To even recommend someone for such a rank he would have to be a minimum of 7th or 8th dan in most aikido organizations. I keep an eye on the aikido world and have never heard of him. If he held such a rank he's been around giving seminars, etc. Your site had the distinction of breaking the mail order barrier. One I had hoped would not crop up in the art. Frauds are starting to rear their ugly heads in Aikido much like they have in other arts-gradiose self promotions and lofty titles are not a tradition in Aikido (grandmaster, soke, professor, doctor, etc). They usually end up getting slammed on e-budo. Egos abound.

His Reponse:

Mr. Riggs, thank you for your insight, I have asked our accreditation person who overseas the upkeep of instructors certification and verifies information to get me the information on how to contact Sensei Reser's Instructors who are still around and have schools in cities south of our Dojos who are not affiliated with us. Even though they have vouch for his credentials, I now feel the need to have the whole organization's lineage checked out. It is a delicate situation with approaching these schools and their instructors since they have been around for over twenty years. I will have to perform this task myself. I will however have it done within the next week. If I have the slightest doubt of any kind, then the system will be pulled from our sites and not offered any longer through us.

Again thanks for your information,

Master Williams

It should be interesting to see what happens. If he is an instructor with integrity he will seriously investigate and resolve this if there are discrepancies. Personally, I have considerable difficulty with mail order ranking systems.

Marc Kupper

09-21-2005, 09:53 AM

He called himself Master Williams. That's a red flag unless he is under 12."Master" is ok with me - it's the way sensei gets addressed in the tae kwon do dojang I've been in and is likely used in some MA schools for arts other than TKD. "Master" is likely a a translation from a Chinese, Korean, or Japanese word and may not be an exact match for the English word "master."

Also - the web page at www.blackbeltinyou.com/id17.html has been updated to say "Aikido Master's Package pulled off the market by Master Frank Williams. I do not want this set offered by Sensei Reser. I will only say it was not approved by me or the Kazoku Dojos. Sorry for any inconvenience this may have caused anyone. Sincerely Master Williams." The page is still offering a $180 package to nidan.

I personally would give this guy the benefit of doubt though am also skeptical that AIkido, or any MA, can be learned well from videos and home study/practice.

Marc

Mashu

09-21-2005, 10:09 AM

If you could learn martial arts on video in your own home then I would have been a Kung Fu Master by age 12 after all those Saturday afternoon movies I watched.

Paul D. Smith

09-21-2005, 10:29 AM

"Master" is ok with me - it's the way sensei gets addressed in the tae kwon do dojang I've been in and is likely used in some MA schools for arts other than TKD. "Master" is likely a a translation from a Chinese, Korean, or Japanese word and may not be an exact match for the English word "master."

Also - the web page at www.blackbeltinyou.com/id17.html has been updated to say "Aikido Master's Package pulled off the market by Master Frank Williams. I do not want this set offered by Sensei Reser. I will only say it was not approved by me or the Kazoku Dojos. Sorry for any inconvenience this may have caused anyone. Sincerely Master Williams." The page is still offering a $180 package to nidan.

I personally would give this guy the benefit of doubt though am also skeptical that AIkido, or any MA, can be learned well from videos and home study/practice.

Marc

Sorry, Marc, but in trading in correspondence with the man, I was told, in brief, yes, I could obtain a black belt in any style they have on the site by sending in videos. I posed BJJ as an example, and on further posing the problem of showing grappling by oneself, I posed, I kid you not, that if I grab some townies who I do WFF style wrestling with and send the tape in, this is what we do? His answer was an unqualified, "yes, it's that simple!"

:crazy:

aikidoc

09-21-2005, 01:48 PM

Paul: that's disturbing. I also checked to see if LaSalle University offers a Ph'D in business. It's not in their curriculum-could have been in 2002. I wonder whether the ranks came from the association he formed?

aikidoc

09-21-2005, 02:14 PM

http://www.universal-martial-arts.org/

Check this site out. If you follow all the info it's disturbing. Recognized by board member who has rank of 5th dan and started his own style/org, etc. It's the old inflate your resume that some engage in when doing this stuff. His nidan stuff is still up. Guess you can't get to master of aikido anymore by home study.

John Boswell

09-22-2005, 09:24 AM

Hey! According to the UMAA schedule... I should be a NIDAN! I'm gettin' ripped off! :mad: :p

NO FAIR!! :grr:

WHAAAAA!! :sorry: :(

James Davis

09-22-2005, 11:02 AM

Hey! According to the UMAA schedule... I should be a NIDAN! I'm gettin' ripped off! :mad: :p

NO FAIR!! :grr:

WHAAAAA!! :sorry: :(
Okay, okay. Shazam! :cool: You're a NISSAN! :D

dyffcult

09-23-2005, 12:21 AM

John, I got you beat...I could be a rokyudan.....hot damn! Wonder how much that will cost me in money and dignity?

Brenda

Rupert Atkinson

09-23-2005, 01:56 AM

Brenda - I got you beat ...

I made this ten years ago: http://discovering-aikido.com/aik/nobo_jutsu.html

So send me your money ... not him. :D

wendyrowe

09-23-2005, 04:47 AM

Brenda - I got you beat ...

I made this ten years ago: http://discovering-aikido.com/aik/nobo_jutsu.html

So send me your money ... not him. :D
Forget the Dan certificates; it's almost worth sending you money just for this:

Nobo-jutsu Zen Ukemi
...
In training to be silent, train in a place where no one can hear .
In training to be noisy, train so that no one can hear.

Nick Simpson

09-24-2005, 04:58 AM

I heard of an individual who was promoted to 5th dan, I believe, after 3 years of training (non mail order though, so I guess thats ok :p )

Nick Simpson

09-24-2005, 05:00 AM

Also, I believe the master title in taekwando (spelling?) and some other martial arts is allowed to be used upon reaching 6th dan? Though I could be wrong.

ikkitosennomusha

09-28-2005, 01:21 PM

John and Dave,

I believe you are wanting to accomplish something along the lines of the WHO (world health organization). The "WHO" is an organization and website that one interested in medical school can refer to for a list of ligitimate and fradulant medical schools around the world. This sort of thing would be a major udertaking but doable.

Personally, I think it is a great idea. Good ideas! I have seen people "bastardize" the art as well and nothing sickens me more regarding the preservation of lineage and quality. Now that I have been trained uneder a major organization, I can easily detect a independant and a fraud. The quality, methodology, ideology, etc..is simply.....unfound.

Organizations are in place for a good reason. Most independants despise what a organization stands for. It is well worth the effort and the journey will be fruitful if the path of becoming afiliated with a respectable organization is sought. There are merely my opinions and everyone maynot share my thought.

Brad

aikidoc

09-28-2005, 01:51 PM

Brad:

I agree with a lot of what you say. However, there are many independents that have quality programs and prior lineages with quality instruction. There are others, however, that call into question the very issues of quality, lineage, etc. It's generally political for the break with an ego undertone. Some of the breaks are legitimate-abusive instructors, unfairness or favoritism in promotional policies, etc. As noted in the recent dialogue with one website-we have now been honored with a mail order 5th dan program. The challenges to keep aikido out of the quagmire of mail order or sokey dokey ranking systems will likely increase. Unfortunately, there are those out there who simply have no clue.

Mary Eastland

09-28-2005, 01:53 PM

You would not be practicing Aikido today if Uesieba thought as you did.
Mary

Brad wrote"
Personally, I think it is a great idea. Good ideas! I have seen people "bastardize" the art as well and nothing sickens me more regarding the preservation of lineage and quality. Now that I have been trained uneder a major organization, I can easily detect a independant and a fraud. The quality, methodology, ideology, etc..is simply.....unfound.

Organizations are in place for a good reason. Most independants despise what a organization stands for. It is well worth the effort and the journey will be fruitful if the path of becoming afiliated with a respectable organization is sought. There are merely my opinions and everyone maynot share my thought.

Brad[/QUOTE]

crbateman

09-28-2005, 04:17 PM

IMHO, organizations provide the political hierarchy, and, if credible, a known curriculum and grading structure. But I know many that feel what is important is the TEACHER. Much Aikido can be learned from a good teacher, whether or not he/she belongs to a particular organization, or to any organization at all. And belonging to an organization will not turn a bad teacher into a good one. What is a comfortable fit for any student is a function of what they are looking for. And whether a teacher is labeled as bad or good is a very subjective matter. Personally, I prefer to decide those things for myself.

aikidoc

09-28-2005, 05:12 PM

[QUOTE=Mary Eastland]You would not be practicing Aikido today if Uesieba thought as you did.
Mary [QUOTE]

While that may be very true, a lot of the people doing these independent "styles" are definitely not of the same caliber as O'Sensei. And that in my opinion is a big issue. Example: 3rd dan in a legitimate style suddenly becomes 10th dan in his style. One that tested no higher than 2nd dan gets eventually promoted to 6th dan by virtue of his shodans voting so. He had not been under an instructor since about 3rd dan. Other's using non-traditional titles awarded by organizations that care nothing about quality.

Again, I don't think this is about independents. It's about quality and rank being close to skill.

ikkitosennomusha

09-28-2005, 07:00 PM

[QUOTE=Mary Eastland]You would not be practicing Aikido today if Uesieba thought as you did.
Mary [QUOTE]

Again, I don't think this is about independents. It's about quality and rank being close to skill.

This statement says what I would have liked to have said. My purpose was not to offend anyone and I hope in that, I was a success. Yes, there are great independants that are worthy of the title "Sensei" I am sure, I just have not seen any. But wait, I have also seen those under a major organiation that needed room for growth but at least that particular sensei can be monitored and provided with the "corect" assistance when needed. This is another downfall to an independant, who is going to monitor them?

rob_liberti

09-28-2005, 09:30 PM

Who will guard the guards? Organizations might just produce as many frauds as they prevent.

I have the idea that when something great like aikido is discovered, the first generation students really get to be part of something incredible. The next generation (I mean that first generation's students) will do quite well but the watering down is almost a gaurantee. By the third generation, if they don't use their resourses to rediscover the original spark - the watering down is probably too great to recover from for the next generation.

The hope is that organizations create that resourse in working to bring people together and enforce high quality. When being a part of an organization (or being an independant dojo for that matter) keeps people from practicing together and/or promote based on loyalty or ability to teach beginners or anything other than aikido ability then the members seriously need to think about what they are supporting.

Rob

SeiserL

09-29-2005, 08:19 AM

IMHO, organizations or federations (each with their own different code of conduct and ethics) do not make for quality teachers or instruction. Its the dedication and ethics of the individual that matters. I have met teachers with good technique, but switch organizations to gain rank and have ethical congruence (they aren't doing anything wrong according to the new organization). I have met teachers with less technique, but honor and respect the lineage of their teachers. I have only met a few that do both.

Fraudulent according to who? I wouldn't call it fraudulent if I didn't know better or I agreed with them. I would only call it fraudulent if I didn't agree with what they do and how they promote and run their business.

Its not "Aikido frauds". Its just people I personally consider frauds based on my own personal code of ethics.