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Short_Stack
12-19-2004, 08:18 PM
I dont know if aikido use throwing spikes but i was wondering if you new of some good videos/books or if there is any. please help, thanks in advanced

Adramalek
12-20-2004, 12:10 AM
Hi Randy as part of the curriculum of our school Shurikenjutsu should be practiced around the 3rd or 2nd Kyu as part of any Ninjutsu school, OK a crash course my friend First: Types of shuriken varied depending of which Ryu you practice for example if you deal with Iga of (Togakure-Ryu-Ninpo) from the Bujinkan usually it will be a four tip star shape shuriken and methods for throwing go from side release (like a Frisbee), Inverted ( the arc goes from outside to inside), oblique(taping down the wrist with the elbow close to the side using a descending motion like a bird feeding and your wrist is the neck), wile using the Bo-Shuriken (spikes) the shuriken is aliened with the fingers and hold in place by the thumb, using a downward motion is released to the target, this technique is later in training changed to an upward arc and on advanced level is practiced as quick draw type of techniques, The Book ( Secrets Of The Samurai) has a good explanation of the basic uses of this art that was later implemented by common Samurai Ryus who learned this techniques from Senseis that spend some years as Ronin and came into contact with some Shinobi Ryus most likely Yamabushi who were most intrusted in spiritual refinement than the Iga, Koga and Fuma Ryus, Is entrusting to see that today most practitioners tend to fallow the way of the Yamabishi as a life enhancing tool and then use other Ryus methods of training for the combat area of their training . Today certification is considered valid through the Bujinkan, that is the concept of Soke Massaki Hatsumi considered by most practitioners to be the only inheritor of all the remaining and historically traced Ninjutsu traditions as the 34th Grand Master of Togakure Ryu Ninpo, by links with people who were trained by him even tho they are no longer part of the Bujinkan, like Grand Master Stephen K. Hayes who's books and videos give a good deal of technical along with theoretical information on Ninjutsu, others are from the Genbunkan, which is a concept of Grand Master Shoto Tanemura ,who was Hatsumi's student and right hand man for many years till 1984 when they for some not really publicly known reason parted ways, and later Tanemura claimed to be co-inheritor of some of these traditions. There are another Ryus that are recognized like Dux Ryu (now Known as F.A.S.S.T) developed by Shidoshi Frank W. Dux who's background both Military and as Ninjutsu instructor is both praised & heavily criticize by those who consider him to be the ultimate 20th century example of a true Shinobi/Navy Seal Instructor/Cover Government Agent and movie inspirer and those who say that it is all made up and he is a fraud, in my personal and humble opinion I met Mr. Dux in two Ninjutsu summits and he was technically, theoretically and physically impressive and effective, if he's is a lie well Daaammm is a Freaking good one. Other sources can be found in the Five Winds System of Grand Master and Panamanian borne Ronald Duncan who's approach to Ninjutsu or (Ninjitsu) same just deferent pronunciation... goes from unarmed combat to use of fire arms. He has a similarity with Hayes in the fact that they are both called the Father of American Ninjutsu. BUT....... Duncan claims the grand mastership of Koga....But ....The last known and 14th Grand Master of that Ryu it is said in JAPAN never to have Past On the tradition to any known student... so it is hard to prove by lineage the link of Duncan and Koga Kaiden. For more info on shurikenjutsu look for books from Hatsumi, Hayes, Charles Daniels Ext. they can give you a good idea on concepts and training but remember not everybody falls under the Bujinkan there are lots of people that have chosen to form alliances because it is hard to stay connected to the main source and then have it for a week every two years or so; many of us have a training link with the Bujinkan or Gebunkan but for many reasons that go from being relocated because of military service to not approving of the narrowmindness of the point of contact who some times try to charge excessive amounts for training seminars, merchandise and some times of a basic skill level training tools. I hope that this info can help you in your search for the martial way.

evileyes This have been the Evil Ways of Dave tha Snake evileyes

Chuck.Gordon
12-20-2004, 02:12 AM
If you want to get your hands on some books about authentic, traditional Japanese budo in which shuriken (the spikes, not the stars) are used, go to www.budogu.com and browse through the books and videos there.

In terms of aikido, I also understand that shuriken were, at one time, taught at the Iwama dojo, but the practice was mostly discontinued some years ago.

Chuck

grondahl
12-20-2004, 05:34 AM
http://www.secrets-of-shuriken.com.au/index1.htm

akiy
12-20-2004, 10:32 AM
In terms of aikido, I also understand that shuriken were, at one time, taught at the Iwama dojo, but the practice was mostly discontinued some years ago.
A friend of mine who recently returned from being an uchideshi at Iwama said that he was taught shurikenjutsu (using the spike type shuriken) from Saito sensei (both the late Morihiro Saito sensei as well as Hitohiro Saito sensei). It's not a "regular" part of practice, but it hasn't been discontinued, per se.

-- Jun

Adramalek
12-21-2004, 12:19 AM
CLARIFICATION, there is no ]TRUE, JAPANESE SHURIKEN, OK [/[/U]B] everything came from their main land of Asia IE: China, Mongolia, Tibet ext. [B]Star shaped shuriken is TRADITIONAL IE: used by the Hattori Clan under Tokugawa'srule as an entrance tool (the squared shaped star with open spaces in the middle, was used to pull out nails from wood by scraping, hooking and pooling actions to gain entrance to houses, farms, barracks ext. with the purpose of arson, poisoning food supplies, contaminating indoor or secured wells, retrieving information, planting false information like exchanging maps for bogus ones or retracing routes of reinforcements or supplies lines threw areas were ambush was either waiting or easily set up. True study of the history of Japan will show the many uses of this tactics on the feudal period of this country. By the way Ninjutsu traces its origins as far as India and Tibet as also do principles of Zen, Buddhism and Shinto so what is this CRAP about True Japanese or traditional is like saying................. ooooh as American as Apple pie, well hey numnuts, Apple pie traces its origins to Spain and Portugal so....... are we repeating the disinformation we have been fed our hole freaking lives....... :grr: like the freaking pilgrims inviting the Indians to dinner :confused: yeaaah or that the ate turkey :crazy: People the turkey comes from Mejico and is original name was Wajolote;....... So it was the french who made possible the independence of the colonies threw the use of Mercenary forces and Local Militia,.....and now we hate them because they are not throwing bombs on helpless civilians (Most air raids end up taking 70 to 85% non combatant casualties so do we really want use our tax money to kill one stinking taliban and kill seventy woman, children, elderly, and working non-combatant civilians maybe its just me but if my friend downstairs stops working I'll just use Viagra I'll not start killing helpless civilians to get my hardon but hey, I can be wrong, it has happen one or twice in the last Milena, so hey!!!!) (oooooh and before you call me antiamerican or say that I don't support the troops tell me in what sector of Kabul you were wile I was eating those stinking M.R.Es trying to find an E1 or a E2 to change the freaking pasta primavera for some goddamed wild rice, while pulling a 24 shift with 4 hours of sleep till the next one, you tell me, if you did it... then criticize my ass till kingdom come;.... But if not,...... don't hide behind the freaking democracy that I defended wile you were playing SOCOM on your stinking play station OK).......... (And by the way it is not the soldiers fault, is the fault of the guy who robbed the 2000 elections with the help of his baby brother... he is the one to blame, not some poor kid from Tennessee who joins up because he is tired of making the minimum wage or because he wants to go to collage but daddy don't have enough money because for some reason, him not having blue eyes and white skin interferes with the thinking process of the guy evaluating him for the good job with the good health plan) before we start calling something true, traditional or original,... we may want to start researching first;.... Is like the Bald Eagle some stupid bear cornholing lumber liker saw the body of the bird one color and the head white and call it Bald... do you smell the manure we have been teach since kindergarten, so please before you start calling something this or that just research and I promise not to say a dammmmm word but if not THE EVIL WAYS WILL CONTINUE evileyes

PS: In the 1860's & 70's the Shinobi were use as special police in Tokyo... some of their tactics were also used against U.S. Troops on the pacific campaign on W.W.II and also some of their methods were allegedly assimilated by the S.S. and after the war implemented around Africa by The British S.A.S who by the way where the Forefathers of U.S. Units like DELTA;....These same tactics are the ones that are helping the members of the U.S.S.F win the battles against the Taliban and are still use by any C.T teams around the world TODAY. Expl. Seal Team Six, Delta, G.S.G-9, Green Berets ext. So what has your Martial Art have been doing lately................

Chuck.Gordon
12-21-2004, 02:24 AM
A friend of mine who recently returned from being an uchideshi at Iwama said that he was taught shurikenjutsu (using the spike type shuriken) from Saito sensei (both the late Morihiro Saito sensei as well as Hitohiro Saito sensei). It's not a "regular" part of practice, but it hasn't been discontinued, per se.

-- Jun

I've heard similar of folks being taught on a case-by-case basis (I think our Monkeyboy Hacker mentioned something about it once, now that I think about it), but it's apparently not part of the 'normal' curriculum is it?

Chuck

Chuck.Gordon
12-21-2004, 03:52 AM
CLARIFICATION, there is no ]TRUE, JAPANESE SHURIKEN, OK [/[/U]B] everything came from their main land of Asia IE: China, Mongolia, Tibet ext.

Depends on where you get your info from. I've taken as my sources folks like Hunter Armstrong, Donn Draeger, Diane and Miek Skoss, Ellis Amdur and Karl Friday, among others.

Additionally, I could refer anyone who can read Japanese to several works available in that language, among them the 'Bugei Ryuha Daijiten', a comprehensive and quite detailed listing of legitimate ryuha and lineages.

Care to share your sources for the info you've presented?

Now admittedly, much of what we know today as Japanese culture (to include the budo) have been influenced by mainland Asian cultures, but the Japanese are champions at learning a thing, integrating it and turning it into something unique.

On the whole, the influence of Chinese culture and arts, et al, on Japan has been in the form of classical texts, court behavior, to some extent, dress and to a lesser extent, the martial arts.

However, it hasn't been wholesale, and, especially in the case of the budo, mostly hasn't been done in a manner that can be historically traced with any sort of specificity.

[B]Star shaped shuriken is TRADITIONAL IE: used by the Hattori Clan under Tokugawa'srule

Interesting, I hadn't heard this before. Source?

I never said the star-shaped ones ('shaken' is the proper name for 'em) weren't used in Japan, only that the term 'shuriken', as used in most traditional, historical, ryuha refers to a throwing spike or slender dagger-like implement.

By the way Ninjutsu traces its origins as far as India and Tibet ...


Again, I'd ask you to cite sources for this information.

The legend of Daruma has been fairly thoroughly examined in several sources, and has proven to be somewhat less than it has been built up to be. However, there is an undeniable thread, albeit in places a somewhat tenuous one, of commonality in most Asian cultures and arts.

There is verifiable information about certain of the legitimate ryuha including elements of what is sort of colloqualliy known as 'ninjutsu' or more specifically, 'shinobijutsu' within their curriculum. Primarily, this was a body of knowledge within the system that was taught to those who might be required as part of their duty to do the sneak and peek missions.

Sort of like we teach our modern snake-eaters (Recondo, SpecOps, etc) slightly different tactics, strategies and methodologies than we do an E-1 11B infantryman.

and before you call me antiamerican

Wouldn't dream of it. Aside from this little rant, I know nothing of you or your history of politics. Don't much care about 'em either. It's none of my business and not the topic of this forum, unless you make it so.

In terms of the topic at hand, you're presenting information that many martial scholars and hoplologists consider to be myth, misinformation and partial truths. I'm asking for sources and offering some of my own.

don't support the troops tell me in what sector of Kabul you were wile I was eating those stinking M.R.Es

I'm afraid I'm a bit old and banged up to have made OEF or OIF, my friend. I do, however, have a handful of shiny bits and a small VA check every month -- oh yeah, and am missing a chunk of collarbone and have some interestingly fused ribs and vertebrae -- to remind me of my service some years past.

What was your unit and MOS, if I may ask? I work daily with several folks who were there (Afghanistan and Iraq, a few of 'em did both and some got sent to Iraq twice so far), and I am currently working as part of the mission to train young folks to go down south and -- hopefully -- come back alive.

then criticize my ass till kingdom come;....

I have not criticized you, or your ass for that matter. Don't care to, or care about such. What I care about is presenting factual information.

[B]So what has your Martial Art have been doing lately................

The same thing it does every day, Pinky, trying to take over the world! (That was humor, by the way).

You seem very ... defensive.

Chuck

L. Camejo
12-21-2004, 08:20 AM
Interesting thread.

Just something I wanted to point out.

Due to certain genetic laws the human body has a certain shape, as such there are limited ways in which that shape can be contorted or changed in order to get certain effects. This is why a karate punch may sometimes look like a kung fu punch may resemble a muay thai punch etc. Same goes for a lot of other things.

From my understanding of the history of the S.A.S. the tactics they employed in Africa were partially based on stuff developed in earlier campaigns in Malaya, Borneo and surrounding regions and also on things they learnt from tribal colleagues in the African countries where they were conducting ops. These tactics were learnt from the natural tribal inhabitants who were quite versed in stealthty methods of movement etc. since their very survival as hunters depended on it. The SAS have proven to be extremely adept over the decades at learning from the locals to find better ways to execute their objectives. The thing is though, since there are general laws that govern the movements of the human body as well as laws that govern best stealth practices I find that claiming what the SAS and modern SF teams use as part of stealth training is descended from shinobijutsu a bit of a stretch. The modes of operation may look the same but that does not mean that they are the same.

Just my thoughts.
LC:ai::ki:

Adramalek
12-23-2004, 12:27 AM
OK chuky the Vampire Sprayer First: evileyes

There is common Knowledge as you admitted that most things in Japan (Including Population) Came from Mayor Asia :drool: Tell me the name the era the year that shuriken started NOBODY KNOWS FOR SURE THE ONLY THING THAT CAN BE TRACE IS WHEN THE TERM WAS USE AND TERM BEING USED AND WEAPON BEEN DEVELOP IS A TOTAL DIFFERENT TAIL CHUBBY DIPPER!! OOOoh and before you reply check out Hatsumi's collection of shuriken use in the web page mention above in these page.
Most info will show that (secretive schools use it) read between the Viagra grandpa don't let it cloud what ever 2 or 3 working neurons you may have left from the 60's
If you look at the book Ninjutsu The art of stealth you'll see that Mr. Dreager unfortunately generalizes,..... like calling the unarmed portion of the art (Karate) if he generalizes like that, now imagine what other generalizations he could had made .........unfortunately he has passed on and we can not ask him who gave that info to him or how he got it,..... second the training of your (snake eaters) includes the use of smoke grenades as a type of concealment, what is the only M/A that in its curriculum has that, the use of static line entrance. the use of anti personnel mines, even the clothing, and underwater operations are similar look for Fuma Ninja or Fuma no Mono Sherlock, also the variety in weapon systems to include like no other M/A small hand held canons that worked as shotguns in Mr. Dreager book he even mentions the fact that they use giant kite type of gliders to verify enemy positions look it up bone narrow recipient;...... second your snake eaters train in Brazilian Jujitsu but it is called (combatives) because god forbid we give someone other than the all knowing DOD some credit for the stuff that really work or admit that a system base on the art of a former enemy is now the main stream way for the ARMY to train their soldiers in HtH..... again check it out ask any Drill Sgt. or better yet one of your snake eaters But don't ask Lorenzo Lamas..... he hated that role... he did the movie to get money buy a Harley and start doing Renegade. Look for any SF guy from Bragg and ask him................ The usage of German and Japanese methods is publicly known since Clinton made millions of formerly classified documents public, look them up or ask your local library that's what I did !!! And why does the CIA keeps secrets everything dealing with the use of former SS Gestapo agents by the US or the use of scientist and wander isn't it just to coincidental that the same basics of the rockets under their development were u7se to make the Apollos again don't believe a single word I say check it but hey talking like that makes people think and thats uncomfortable is better to tell the tell the way is already been told is safer that way,,, we killed hundred of thousands with the nukes to Japan but some how even if It was unnecessary we are not in the list of crimes against humanity nor are the ones who exterminated the Natives of America not they are called forefathers never referred to as slave owners that wanted to be free we were not prepared to hear that on grade school and because our education was based on BS now we think that if is not what we have herded is wrong because WE could NEVER be wrong, others yes but not us not me dear god nooooooo so we think that if someone tell it differently than us he has to give special credentials even if we generalize on ours do the smell of manure lets you breath yet ooooh and to make things simple for you the History channel and Discovery channel have specials that make the same exact link with today special ops that I did so question them for books Ninjutsu (History and traditions by Dr. Massaki Hatsumi..The Shadow Warriors of Togakure By S.K. Hayes Secrets of The Samurai By the Same guy who did the Dynamic Sphere Book read them both Korky!! Taijutsu by Charles Daniels plus I already gave names on my previous post that yahoo and goggle searches can be made under Cotton Balls so hey peter puffer check them out and then talk to me about Oooh Japanese pages and transcripts heee didn't you get from the other post that a lie can be made in German, English and ohhh no!!!! it can't be!!!!! but it isssss!!!!! Japanese spark plug :crazy: look around and then dispute me , Hatsumi, Daniels, The Freaking D. Channel, The History Channel and of course something simple to ignore common freaking sense and hey squixis it is not snake most of the time is insects again don't believe me go to the US Jungle Warfare Center In Panama and also dispute them or maybe the guys at SERE school who teach that insects are safer to eat easier to digest and cause less stomach problems but hey keep playing that play station tiger I mine with that social security check and the Senior citizen discount that metal gear solid 3 must has cost around $30 IT IS A GOOD DEAL GRANDPA so hey if by any chance you need more compensation let me know I'll break those hip bones for free hey anything to help the USCOA am here to help oh the site that a previous poster put in should have these books so hey there's no excuse books and TV easy he also check who by the way Mr Duncan use to train visit his site and you will see the MARINE connection or look for the connection between the Dal ai Lama and Hayes now look for what is Yamabushi? I can't do it all for ya put down the Cialix and look see ya by the way the 50's called and they want their Narrow minded ways back along with the clothes and since you like snake eaters com on urinstain Eat Me

PS. Snake consumption is a last option in survival environment why? glad you ask. snakes diet varies from insects which are safe to smaller serpents, rats, frogs ext. meaning to prevent poisoning from ether serpent of it's last meal it has to be cooked meaning fire is necessary yea and give away your position to Sidiky why is gonna spray you with that Chinese made AK when he finds you by trailing the smoke of your snake roust or by the smell it leaves snakes have glands that are use to mark their territory and it serves as a natural trailing device to go back to a specific location were it's layer maybe or some creature who was bitten and Left to die but again don't believe me go to the library and check and then go and invite Chuko the clown to a meal of Boa with and entrance dish of cobra

Bronson
12-23-2004, 12:57 AM
Dave,

Say what you have to say, but try to do it with some civility.

Thanks,

Bronson

Adramalek
12-23-2004, 01:15 AM
Bronson my friend I understand you BUT have you ever tried to watch TV and the image fades what do you do you shake it it is all a little shake nothing more

PeterR
12-23-2004, 01:29 AM
Let me get this straight - whose hips are you going to break?

Jun - ban this clown.

Bronson
12-23-2004, 01:35 AM
Bronson my friend I understand you BUT have you ever tried to watch TV and the image fades what do you do you shake it it is all a little shake nothing more

Unfortunately I don't quite get your analogy :confused:

Bronson

Adramalek
12-23-2004, 02:01 AM
Basically Bronson what is not attained with kindness :) , common sense, more than enough explanation can be attain by meanness evileyes my friend;... example in less than half an hour two other posts... you see... it grabs attention and makes you think... some only in the negative... some in the funny aspects... and almost none in the issue at hand but... at least a discussion is started by more parties and thats the idea ... by the way on who's hips?.... apparently your sense of humor was surgically removed ..... but someone will get the joke... if not is OK

Chuck.Gordon
12-23-2004, 02:42 AM
Well, David, that didn't make much sense. Your sources are less than reliable, or biased at best.

I don't know Daniels, except from seeing that he has a few books on the MA shelves in the stores, and while I'm aware of much of hatsumi's history, I'm not convinced that he (or Tanemura) are un-biased in terms of presenting factual history. They both tend toward allegory and parable, I think.

Westbrook and Ratti, the folks who did Dynamic Sphere and Secrets of the Samurai, were well-intentioned and tried hard, but their research was hobbled and was actually not very good.

The value of some of those sources you cite is found only when viewed in th elight of more thoroughly researched pieces and comparing extant historical records.

Now, sorry to disapoint, but your threats mean nothing to me, and your diatribe is basically null content. You've just earned a place on my ignore list.

Live well, be happy.

Chuck

xuzen
12-23-2004, 03:38 AM
Horror horror horror! :crazy: :crazy: :crazy:

David Ol. had just broken every grammatical rule on the book. No punctuation, no proper nouns and predicates. No proper sentence formation. Basically I just cannot understand what he is trying to convey. Do other forumers have better luck understanding his writings?

Boon.

Thomas Ambrose
12-23-2004, 04:35 AM
David, I find your posts very interesting, although being a typical American college student, I have the attention span of a goldfish, so please forgive me for not completely "understanding" your points. ;)

As for MRE's, I may be a bit deviant here, but I actually enjoy them :D. One of my buddies is in the Nat'l Guard and he would often give me his leftover uneaten MRE'S from his monthly training sessions and I would quite enjoy them. My favorite was spaghetti, but I must agree that pasta primaverra wasn't so delicious.

As for apple pies, I think that "Dutch Style" as they are called are my favorite, take it as you like it.:D

Anyway, what do I have to contribute to the original topic? One of my best friends practices Bujinkan Ninjutsu. He has had some training on bo-shuriken spikes (I hope I am gettting the terms right). He even bought a few to practice with. He showed me how to throw them and let me try them out. They are NOT easy. Out of maybe 20 throws, I managed to actually stick one of the spikes into the "pizza box" we used as a target at less than 10 feet. It does seem like something fun to learn, but I would recommend doing it right, and getting advice from someone who knows what they are doing. In other words, though I am NO expert, if you really want to learn, then get into a dojo and train! :D

Adramalek
12-23-2004, 10:46 PM
jajaja, the pasta primavera SUCKS,,, JEJE........ XU excuse my English bud ,..... it is just my fourth language ..... but sorry anyway ........ so Don Dreager was called unreliable huuum ..... but you listed as one of your main references....... how com .. ooh yeahhh is my English..... is that..... am stupid OK my bad you didn't list him as reference... and Dr. Hatsumi is not a regular in Budo Magazine, and he wasn't, named instructor of the year by Black Belt Magazine, oooh and I made up that thing about the Hattori clan ....... that is not part of Japan's rich Martial history ....... I made it up, and I also made up the things about SF training, and me and my friends dress as Ninja turtles infiltrated the discovery channel and planted the one hour special ... aren't I a practical MF, I lied and also manage to provide reliable sources to back it up.... my lying ability is only surpass by my grammatical expertise in the English languish..rigth XU.... is OK sorry for lying so much .... am so ashamed

Bronson
12-23-2004, 11:57 PM
me and my friends dress as Ninja turtles infiltrated the discovery channel and planted the one hour special

I KNEW IT!!

Bronson ;)

Adramalek
12-24-2004, 12:42 AM
Thomas,... when ever you train with Bo shuriken, remember or ask your Buddy the applications of these weapon... First:

1. As a stabbing tool: you don't have to throw it every time, try retrieving the shuriken from it's hiding place usually the inside of the lapel (practice with a flat point pencil or a peace of plastic) and go for combinations on sensitive parts of the body like neck, arm pits, side of the knees, crotch, face (specially under the ear in the space between the lower jaw bone and the carotid artery )ext.

2. Then practice these combinations, back roll or side roll to make some space, and then go for the throw ..... ( have a preset target) Get used to fighting and then making space for yourself and then throwing. The idea is to get away wile the attacker deals with the injury, or if you miss usually their attention goes to the area of the hit and this will give you (not always) the chance for another throw, getting a head start and escaping or launching another attack


3. Measure distances by steps, start at five feet from target and move an additional step for every 3 hits, as a black belt usually the standard is at 9 steps, getting at least 7 of every 10 throws

4. They (BO shuriken) can also be used as climbing tools, by hammering them on a 45 degree angle in the following fashion:

1


1



1

These with the use of a piece of cloth or rope if your lucky, can help you climb a tree, or set up a warning devise on your perimeter, by attaching a string from one, on one side of the most likely approaching point; And another 15 to 20 feet across. Then just find empty cans and fill them with rocks, or, if in a completely natural environment, go for ether fruit shells, (coconuts, nuts) fallen tree bark ( when moisten can be reshape and filled with different size rocks, and when it dries you'll have a shaker). Spread them around 4 to 6 feet one from the other, and get always one secondary line, forming the tip of an arrow type shape >.... the mouth of the V is your resting area.


5 They can also be attach with line, to any stick and form a Yari (spear) type weapon/tool, that can help, especially with fishing... because, it tends to Pierce the fish instead of cutting, like some traditional spear heads tend to do, is also easier for the beginner


6. Star shuriken (shaken). It also can be used as a H t H weapon, if you pinch it between your thumb and your pointing finger, you have sharp edges on the inside and outside of your hand, training for this techniques should always be made on skin type material to develop the right grip (strength)

7. As a tool it has uses that rage from climbing, to helping entrance, to being easily adapted to another weapon for example,... instead of a lonely iron weight at the end of the chain of a Kusarigama, with a Iron loop attach the star shuriken to it and now wherever that iron ball hits,... it not only hits.... it cuts also

8.The more sharpen points, the bigger the chances of a hit, BUT, the penetration is never as a Bo Shuriken, but it compensates, in the sense that it takes MUCH MUCH LESS practice to get a decent throw/hit ratio
Hope I had answered some of your questions my friend, and tell your friend, to always develop the full range of a weapon... it should be just a tool, not anything more than that. No special value should be given to it that way you see it as something that can be use for many things when you start idolizing weapon systems they usually lose their edge as tools because they are been looked at as weapons only,.... this is extremely harmfully to the student.
This Have Been The Evil Ways Again evileyes

Adramalek
12-24-2004, 01:06 AM
Chucky boy.... i wasn't threatening you in show business it is said break a leg but since your old break a hip didn't any of you guys got that dammm that one is older than the one that goes ( I don't judge people by the color of their neck)... but hey no more jokes for now on I'm singing but wait i....can't....ooooh crap

Michael Hackett
12-24-2004, 01:35 AM
Very strange. I guess the MREs do have a shelf life after all. I had no idea they'd ferment.

Adramalek
12-27-2004, 02:46 AM
Hi Michael is not that they ferment,... is that usually you just eat the stuff you like, and save the rest for emergencies. The crackers are great,... along with the peanut butter....... they also give you some candy and if not p. butter cheese is given.... also Iced tea but is better not to use it. because is an anorectic. and you end up losing water, and getting head aches,... specially if you are in the desert.... The food is also used as currency like (give me 3 cigarettes for 2 p. butters and an M&M bag)

Michael Hackett
12-27-2004, 08:56 AM
Gosh, they sound just the same as all the ones I ate at the Ranger Training Battalion at Fort Benning.

Short_Stack
03-17-2005, 01:46 PM
I was not trying to offend anyone i was just curious, i just started aikido. I was allways into martail art i took TKD fro about 2 years i allways liked throwing stars and and throwing knives and throwing spikes now i will get to learn the proper names and the proper form thanks for your guys help but i got one more question are the bo-shuriken suppost to rotate like a throwing knife? thanks in advanced

Tim Gerrard
03-28-2005, 09:19 AM
I was not trying to offend anyone

I wouldn't worry mate, that guy's not cooked his snakes properly.


:confused: :confused:

samurai_kenshin
04-05-2005, 11:24 AM
A friend of mine who recently returned from being an uchideshi at Iwama said that he was taught shurikenjutsu (using the spike type shuriken) from Saito sensei (both the late Morihiro Saito sensei as well as Hitohiro Saito sensei). It's not a "regular" part of practice, but it hasn't been discontinued, per se.

-- Jun
I'm not sure but some of you may have heard of Patricia Hendricks sensei. She trained under Saito Sensei and practices Iwama style Aikido. She Has a bag of suriken even though i've never seen her throw them. There are however telltale holes in the wall behind a target with some pretty big holes in it...btw sensei will be appearing at aiki expo this year and it really is amazing to take ukemi for her...or just watch for that matter. You should try it.

samurai_kenshin
04-05-2005, 11:34 AM
[
PS: In the 1860's & 70's the Shinobi were use as special police in Tokyo... some of their tactics were also used against U.S. Troops on the pacific campaign on W.W.II and also some of their methods were allegedly assimilated by the S.S. and after the war implemented around Africa by The British S.A.S who by the way where the Forefathers of U.S. Units like DELTA;....These same tactics are the ones that are helping the members of the U.S.S.F win the battles against the Taliban and are still use by any C.T teams around the world TODAY. Expl. Seal Team Six, Delta, G.S.G-9, Green Berets ext. So what has your Martial Art have been doing lately................
Actualy Aikido is practice is required for all officers in the Oakland, Ca police department so actually my martial arts has been doing alot lately. :D :ki:

Chuck.Gordon
04-06-2005, 02:25 AM
Actualy Aikido is practice is required for all officers in the Oakland, Ca police department so actually my martial arts has been doing alot lately. :D :ki:

James,

Olavarrķa hasn't been posting here since December or so. He buzzed in, stirred up a lot of smoke and disappeared (in true ninja fashion, I suppose).

He threw out a lot of martial myth, made some sort-of threats, tooted his own horn quite loudly and generally made himself sort of annoying in a twisted and amusing way.

He knew a little about some things, but not much about the bigger picture(s).

Chuck

thomas_dixon
04-06-2005, 06:17 AM
Actualy Aikido is practice is required for all officers in the Oakland, Ca police department so actually my martial arts has been doing alot lately. :D :ki:

Wouldn't they benefit more from something like Krav Maga?

Short_Stack
04-06-2005, 06:45 AM
what would be a good metal for make bo-shuriken (the throwing spikes). you know metal that is strong, and cheap(not alot of money)? what would you guys recommend

Chuck.Gordon
04-06-2005, 07:33 AM
what would be a good metal for make bo-shuriken (the throwing spikes). you know metal that is strong, and cheap(not alot of money)? what would you guys recommend

Scrap steel, iron maybe. Nothing fancy. Need the weight more than actual tensile strength. Unless you want more art tha functionality, then the sky's the limit..

I know some folks who got their hands on a bunch of broken epees from their local fencing club, spent a little time with tin shears and files and had some very nifty shuriken ...

Chuck

samurai_kenshin
04-06-2005, 11:23 AM
Wouldn't they benefit more from something like Krav Maga?
I thikn they chose aikido for the joint immobilixation techniques. One officer (my cousin) was already a nidan in Iwama style so he headed a class and he was who got me interested.

Chuck.Gordon
04-06-2005, 01:53 PM
Truth be told, most LEOs will benefit from almost ANY institutionalized course of instruction in personal combatives. They simply are not given enough tools with which to deal with troublesome situations. More time is spent teaching firearms than non-lethal, and it's sad.

Chuck

thomas_dixon
04-06-2005, 02:07 PM
I thikn they chose aikido for the joint immobilixation techniques. One officer (my cousin) was already a nidan in Iwama style so he headed a class and he was who got me interested.

Krav Maga has joint immobilization techniques I believe. I'd suggest Brazilian Jiujutsu if thats what you're aiming towards though.

Truth be told, most LEOs will benefit from almost ANY institutionalized course of instruction in personal combatives. They simply are not given enough tools with which to deal with troublesome situations. More time is spent teaching firearms than non-lethal, and it's sad.

Chuck

I still suggest BJJ or something :P Just to add to the Aikido.

samurai_kenshin
04-06-2005, 06:29 PM
Krav Maga has joint immobilization techniques I believe. I'd suggest Brazilian Jiujutsu if thats what you're aiming towards though.



I still suggest BJJ or something :P Just to add to the Aikido.
Brazilian martial arts aren't my thing. I chose Aikido because I thought I could benefit from both the physical and mental sides of it. :ai::ki::do: all the way baby!

samurai_kenshin
04-06-2005, 06:31 PM
James,

Olavarrķa hasn't been posting here since December or so. He buzzed in, stirred up a lot of smoke and disappeared (in true ninja fashion, I suppose).

He threw out a lot of martial myth, made some sort-of threats, tooted his own horn quite loudly and generally made himself sort of annoying in a twisted and amusing way.

He knew a little about some things, but not much about the bigger picture(s).

Chuck
No offense to him but his IQ seems to be the same number as the people living on the moon right now

Charles
04-06-2005, 07:01 PM
I just saw the movie "SIn City". There's a really nice application of a suriken.

thomas_dixon
04-07-2005, 01:41 AM
Brazilian martial arts aren't my thing. I chose Aikido because I thought I could benefit from both the physical and mental sides of it. :ai::ki::do: all the way baby!

Whatever you say.

I suggest you at least look into it. It might be worth your time. The Army thought so.

Short_Stack
04-07-2005, 03:00 AM
i just though what would make great throwing spikes tent stakes (Coleman 10" Tent Stakes) you can get 4 of them for only like $2 or $3. just hope they are strong enough :D

samurai_kenshin
04-07-2005, 10:56 AM
Whatever you say.

I suggest you at least look into it. It might be worth your time. The Army thought so.
I may, but Japanese martial arts seem more appealing to me (for reasons unknown)

-:ai::ki::do: forever!

samurai_kenshin
04-07-2005, 10:57 AM
i just though what would make great throwing spikes tent stakes (Coleman 10" Tent Stakes) you can get 4 of them for only like $2 or $3. just hope they are strong enough :D
I swear i read somewhere shuriken are generally only about 4 inches long...
-:ki:

Jory Boling
04-07-2005, 01:40 PM
I scanned the earlier posts and didn't see this question, so forgive me if it's repeated, but is there any particular reason the spikes were/are part of some aikido training? Just an additional skill some sensei had, so sometimes they incorporated it?
Thanks!

jester
04-07-2005, 04:50 PM
http://www.robertg.com/masakiryu.htm

has good history and info about Shuriken. Robert's dad wrote a book called Spike and Chain, and had a really good collection of weapons.

Anyone here throw knives? If so there's a big competition next weekend in Oklahoma. I hear ESPN will cover part of it.

Also, I am the founder of the Houston Area Knife Stickers HAKS, and if you need any info on custom throwing knives, targets, rules etc. let me know and I'll send you some good links.

Ibaraki Bryan
04-07-2005, 07:49 PM
Shuriken are a regular part of morning bukiwaza at Saito Hitohiro Soke's dojo. :) One hour of ken or jo and a few minutes of shuriken "suburi" then 30 minutes of shuriken. I had my first shuriken practice today in months -- just started going back to morning keiko... it's so easy to get out of practice with shuriken! :D

As to 'why' -- the style of shuriken Hitohiro Sensei practices has a throwing motion very similar to 1st ken suburi strike and we concentrate on putting hips into the movement and controlling the strike -- cutting straight down the center.

Short_Stack
04-08-2005, 01:41 AM
they are usually 6 inches long but the smaller they are the harder it is to throw them from a far distance.

http://www.secrets-of-shuriken.com.au/index1.htm
i have read from a couple of sites that 8" is one of the best lengths but dont go over 14".
http://www.throwzini.com/joe_a_spikes.html
i think that bo shurikens are better than shuriken (stars) or throwing knives
you can throw them just as far as a knive or star (still hitting the target) easier to hide without stabbing/cutting yourself, and they just look sweet in the air :D but thats my opinion

grondahl
04-08-2005, 01:50 AM
http://www.secrets-of-shuriken.com.au/index1.htm for more info about shuriken-training in Iwama.

samurai_kenshin
04-08-2005, 10:53 AM
they are usually 6 inches long but the smaller they are the harder it is to throw them from a far distance.

http://www.secrets-of-shuriken.com.au/index1.htm
i have read from a couple of sites that 8" is one of the best lengths but dont go over 14".
http://www.throwzini.com/joe_a_spikes.html
i think that bo shurikens are better than shuriken (stars) or throwing knives
you can throw them just as far as a knive or star (still hitting the target) easier to hide without stabbing/cutting yourself, and they just look sweet in the air :D but thats my opinion
I'll have to agree they do look good when flying!
:ai::ki::do: forever!

thomas_dixon
04-08-2005, 10:12 PM
I may, but Japanese martial arts seem more appealing to me (for reasons unknown)

-:ai::ki::do: forever!

BJJ is just modified Japanese Jujutsu. You wear Gi's and all during training. I bid you to at least check it out.

samurai_kenshin
04-09-2005, 03:36 AM
BJJ is just modified Japanese Jujutsu. You wear Gi's and all during training. I bid you to at least check it out.
Well i said I may, so soon, and i'll tell you what I think of it! :D

Bronson
04-10-2005, 02:42 AM
Don't do it James!

Don't give in to the pressure. If it doesn't interest you you don't have to go...no matter how many people say how great it is :D

Bronson

MitchMZ
04-10-2005, 03:59 PM
My BJJ experience has actually been a bad thing on some levels. For instance, today in randori I starting taking guys down to the ground and staying with them...the other guys came and pinned me down. Simply put, instictively going to the ground makes for some nasty habits when fighting multiples. But, on the flip side, knowing how to fight on the ground is also very important. My opinion, do more Aikido before you go to BJJ. Just like most modern systems, it is not a complete art...but instead is rather specialized.

Chuck.Gordon
04-11-2005, 03:20 AM
The reasons the Army Combatives Manual went to BJJ-based (rather than the Danzan Ryu JJ base that it had used since the 50s), are several. The guys who were tasked with re-crafting the Combatives Field Manual had BJJ backgrounds. Also, they wanted to create a system wherein some competition could be introduced. If soldiers can compete, they're more likely to practice. The concept is streamlined and fairly simple, for ease of instruction.

From a conversation I had with one of th eauthors a couple of years ago, and some more recent chats with folks teaching the combatives program on the ground, this represents a fairly major change in the way unarmed combatives are perceived by soldiers. Previously, the combatives were taught, sproadically, if at all (outside some of the specops venues), an dif taught, were then shelved in favor of more time on the range.

The BJJ-based approach has been more successful in engaging soldiers in the training, and in the competition associated with it.

Many of the proponents of the program make no bones about it being anything but a minor adjunct to the soldier's best friend, and a last resort.

However, in today's combat/peacekeeping/police action warfare, having some idea of what to do when you can't, or won't, shoot is a Good Thing, and more than a few stories are coming out of the sandbox about troops who wound up tussling rather than shooting.

Aikiweb member Kevin Leavitt has been teaching a self-developed combatives program to the 1-4 Infantry where he's stationed (not far from me). Good reviews on his stuff, and I've talked to him about it a bit. He's based it on aikido, and it's quite interesting.

Some of his guys just got back from a trip to Afghanistan last year (providing security for the elections). I haven't had a chance to talk to him to see if any of them had any applied experience.

Chuck

samurai_kenshin
04-11-2005, 01:52 PM
look, i'm just checking it out. Probably nothing in my area anyway...

jester
04-11-2005, 04:05 PM
i think that bo shurikens are better than shuriken (stars) or throwing knives
you can throw them just as far as a knife or star (still hitting the target)

I can hit an 18" log round from 50 feet with a 13 inch throwing knife.
I think that's impossible for a shuriken (spike).
The stars are called shaken not shuriken.

I would think the effective range for a typical shuriken is only about 18 feet max.

Short_Stack
04-11-2005, 05:52 PM
i'll remeber they are called dirrent thanks :D:) http://www.secrets-of-shuriken.com.au/index1.htm in that site the say the can be thrown 15-18 paces and i think paces are about a yard well me pace is a yard

jester
04-11-2005, 08:25 PM
I might be wrong on the distance thing. I'm going to the WWAC knife throwing tournament this weekend, and I talked to my friend who said he can throw a shuriken (spike) well out past 30 feet.

I'll bring some to see if he can do it. I haven't seen anyone ever do it from that distance before, but he's a top thrower so we'll see.

The spike, (like smaller cheap throwing knives), doesn't have enough mass to travel straight to the target, so it will float at greater distances.

I'll let you know.

Short_Stack
04-12-2005, 12:32 AM
like i said on the other repy up above some have said not to go over 14". I am using tent stakes for bo shuriken but the are bending slightly, it is throwing against some soft wood that is wet. so how would i make these stronger? thanks in advanced

jester
04-18-2005, 09:30 AM
You can get them tempered to make them stronger. I bought some tent stakes that work real well. I'll find out what brand they are and let you know.

Are you throwing into log rounds? If you can get some, they are the best thing in my opinion.
Cottonwood is the best, pine is good but sappy.

I saw a nice set of shuriken on ebay, but they were a bit pricey.

Short_Stack
04-18-2005, 04:03 PM
I am throwing them against plywood (however you spell it). i think it is its got like small kind long chip thing in one big board?. thanks for the help. do you think it is the wood thats mainly making it bend?

Ibaraki Bryan
04-18-2005, 05:55 PM
In Japan they use old tatami mats. I would never use wood for shuriken (well, I guess it depends on the spike and how much I cared about it). If you can't get ahold of old tatami in the States -- maybe you can get old carpet (check the dumpsters at carpet stores for scraps) and glue them to plywood, or wrap them around the plywood and tack them to the back.

Even tempered shuriken will lose their tip if you're just starting out . . . :)

jester
04-19-2005, 10:20 AM
Plywood is NOT any good for throwing into at all!!!

A knife will break right through it, and shurikens will bend for sure.

Tatami sounds like a good answer. You can also take about 10 flattened cardboard boxes compress them together and throw into them. They are good for small knives and use indoors.

Like I said, Cottonwood is great. Palm is good to but it has to dry out a bit. Pine is starting to get a little harder, and it's full of sap, but it works good to. I'll try to post some pics of my targets so you can see what I'm talking about. You want a log round that's at least 18 inches in circumfrence, and about 8-10 inches thick. When the face of the log gets chewed up, you can cut the top inch off and you will have a brand new surface.

samurai_kenshin
05-01-2005, 01:28 AM
I was right. Not much in my area for BJJ. Didn't look very impressive to me anyway...

Bronson
05-01-2005, 02:04 AM
You could try throwing them at a foam arrow target.

Bronson

thomas_dixon
05-01-2005, 12:25 PM
I was right. Not much in my area for BJJ. Didn't look very impressive to me anyway...

Doesn't have to be impressive to be effective. It's a proven system for grappling, which is where you end up if you tackle a suspect. Your Aikido (IMO) won't be that help to you in law enforcement, because probably 9/10 times, the person is trying to get AWAY from you, not attack you like an idiot, unless they can't get away from you. (which is rare, because as you probably know (along with anyone who watches cops), people like to run)