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Guest_779
04-04-2001, 03:42 PM
Magma wrote:
*I* disagree with *you* in that I don't think the teachings of O'sensei are in any way sacred. They are the thoughts and philosophy of a very wise, but also very fallible man, just like you or I. They are a path, not exclusive of others, but they are not the path.




chrisinbrasil wrote:
"Sacred Teachings" HAHAHAHA... HAHA..HA...hehe

I´ve just laughed enough for the whole week. :)


DiNalt wrote:
[QUOTE]The more I read this, the more I see that my Sempai is right about not reading online Aikido forums.

I came to realize that those of us who actually _post_ on regular basis, are by default full of shit.

So, since I don't want to be full of shit (or at least people knowing about it, hehe), I will not post anymore.

Cheers.




Mongo wrote:


I usually came here in hopes of reading legitimate posts from the really gifted senseis that drop in once in awhile, but that too has diminished to such a level that it's not worth checking in on anymore. I guess I'd just rather spend my time training.

Jun -

Good luck with this website. Your intentions and hard work maintaining this site are very commendable and I realize you cannot be held accountable for the "moronic" and repetitive posts that show up.

I agree with DiNalt, Mongo, and others who have left this forum due to the childish arguments and Aikido-bashing that takes place here. It seems it only took 31 short years for Aikido martial artists to forget who created Aikido and for what purpose. I guess there will always be a difference between the true Aikidoka and the wanna-be's, who are nothing more than people practicing jujitsu and falsely calling it “Aikido”. I, too, am leaving this forum, but before I leave I will depart with the sacred words of O-Sensei who said: "Without me there is no Aikido."

Greg Jennings
04-04-2001, 04:28 PM
Jefferson wrote:
I, too, am leaving this forum, but before I leave I will depart with the sacred words of O-Sensei who said: "Without me there is no Aikido."

This is about Aikido-L, the listserve predessor to this forum. It's also only partially appropo. So, take it with a grain of salt and attempt to derive the spirit of it rather than the literal words:



The Aikido-L Whiners' Advisement
by Ivan Vasilev <ivan@MINDSPRING.COM>

(this is a standard message posted infrequently when the need arises)

Dear whiner,

You have whined about Aikido-L - quality of posts, quantity of posts, content of posts, character of posters, etc. You have threatened to unscubscribe.

You're not the first and you're not gonna be the last to do so. The world is full of whiners, not unlike a duck with warm shit. You follow the fine tradition of bitching without contributing and we follow the fine traditions of putting up with your crap and ignoring you. The List has existed in its original form, feel and content for years. If we didn't like it the way it is, we wouldn't have it that way. If you wanna make your own list, that's fine. If you wanna make your own newsgroup, that's fine too. But if you're gonna pollute *this* List with messages against pollution, you're pissing against the wind.

Don't whine! Shut up!



Sincerely,

lt-rentaroo
04-04-2001, 04:55 PM
Hello,

Gee Greg, did someone pee in your Cheerios this morning :)

Jim23
04-04-2001, 05:18 PM
Louis, remember Greg's a type "A" personality!;)

Really, Greg, I agree with you here, Jeff has taken things to the extreme with that post.

But he might not really be such a bad guy. He'll calm down eventually - I did;).

(But for how long?)

Jim23

Greg Jennings
04-04-2001, 07:28 PM
Jim23 wrote:

Louis, remember Greg's a type "A" personality!;)

Dude, "AAA" is more like it.

Jim23 wrote:

Really, Greg, I agree with you here, Jeff has taken things to the extreme with that post.

But he might not really be such a bad guy. <snip>

It wasn't this post that got on my nerves, it was all the others on all the different threads plus this one that got to me.

He'll be OK if he tones down that 'tude and quits acting like he's the only guy here with the Aikido bubble somewhere in sight.

"True Aikidoka" indeed! Hrrrmph!


He'll calm down eventually - I did;).

(But for how long?)

Hey, you started following my Sensei's advice and you came right around ;)

Regards,

Greg Jennings
04-04-2001, 08:01 PM
lt-rentaroo wrote:
Hello,

Gee Greg, did someone pee in your Cheerios this morning :)

It gets on my nerves when someone cops a claim to being a "True Aikidoka" and calls the rest of us "wanna-be's" (and to my knowledge hasn't trained with any of us).

I get really sick of people telling me I'm not practicing Aikido. I train sincerely. I have a direct lineage to the Founder. That should be good enough.



[Edited by Greg Jennings on April 5, 2001 at 01:29pm]

Magma
04-05-2001, 08:56 AM
Amen, brother Greg. Amen.

Nick
04-05-2001, 09:20 AM
Jeff, I wish you the best finding some "true" aikidoka and leaving all of us fakes behind... perhaps one day I might experience your golden enlightenment (said enlightenment refers to the supernatural ability of kindling arguments, showing us all how much better than us he is, and offering no way of resolving the argument because we're not as 'pure' as he is)... in all seriousness though Jeff, if you asked 100 different people what Aikido is, you'd get at least 100 different answers. As of now, there are 791 members registered on this forum, so there will be (once again, at the very least) 791 different opinions about what Aikido truly is. However, attacking us because our views are different... wouldn't that violate the 'sacred' teachings of O'sensei?

"I want considerate people to listen to the voice of Aikido. It is not for correcting others; it is for correcting your own mind. This is Aikido. This is the mission of Aikido and should be your mission."

Sound familiar, Jefferson? I can imagine it won't take too much research to discover whose 'sacred' mouth this came from...

Cheers,

Nick

[Edited by Nick on April 5, 2001 at 09:25am]

lt-rentaroo
04-05-2001, 09:48 AM
Hello,

Greg, I was just messing with you :)

I agree that some folks have the "better than thou" attitude and it does get annoying. I usually let them think whatever delusional thoughts they want. I know I practice Aikido, I know Greg practices Aikido, I know these things because I've been to enough different dojo to realize that even if thousands of miles are separating them, the Aikido remains pretty much the same. Sure, some small differences in hand positions and general philosophical belief (with regards to Ki) will exist, but the whole of Aikido remains the same.

I think people who feel that their Aikido is the only true Aikido or that their beliefs are the only true beliefs would benefit from visiting other dojo and having a more open mind. You know, just because you believe something to be true, doesn't make it true. For example, I may think I'm the most invincible Aikidoka in the world and that my Aikido is more powerful than someone elses; but that doesn't make it true (quite false actually).

For something to be true it must be based on facts, not beliefs. Gee I rambled on a bit here, sorry. Have a good day!

Richard Harnack
04-05-2001, 10:14 AM
Historical point for the "true aikidoka" out there:
remember Kenji Tomiki and Gozo Shioda broke off from Morihei Ueshiba to start their own organizations. Each in their own way felt they were practicing "true aikido".

I do, however, draw a distinction between them and some others who have trained in hapkido or ju-jitsu who feel that by advertising themselves as teaching "Aikido" they will attract more business. We have a local TKD studio whose sign reads "Karate, Judo and Aikido". When pushed the owner will admit that actually it is "Tae Kwon Do, Judo and Hapkido". His reasoning is that more people are aware of Aikido than Hapkido, and that the characters in Korean for Hapkido are analogous to the Japanese characters for Aikido.

Recently, however, I have heard of people who are training with a franchise operation out of Alabama or Louisiana which claims to have 8th degree black belts teaching their special brand of karate and aikido. I have not been able to tie the people who arte training under this system down on the particulars as to who and what their background is.

Has anyone heard of such? Or is this yet someone forming their own organization and promoting themselves?

True Aikido is the one you actually show up to practice, not mouth off about.

PeterR
04-05-2001, 11:30 AM
I have to nibble a little bit here. Neither of those two gentlemen would have been so crass to suggest what they were doing was the true Aikido since that would suggest that others (specifically the Aikikai) were not. In both cases it is probably more correct to say that they broke off from the organization rather than with Ueshiba M.

Richard Harnack wrote:
Historical point for the "true aikidoka" out there:
remember Kenji Tomiki and Gozo Shioda broke off from Morihei Ueshiba to start their own organizations. Each in their own way felt they were practicing "true aikido".

Matt Banks
04-05-2001, 03:16 PM
Jefferson wrote:
Magma wrote:
*I* disagree with *you* in that I don't think the teachings of O'sensei are in any way sacred. They are the thoughts and philosophy of a very wise, but also very fallible man, just like you or I. They are a path, not exclusive of others, but they are not the path.




chrisinbrasil wrote:
"Sacred Teachings" HAHAHAHA... HAHA..HA...hehe

I´ve just laughed enough for the whole week. :)


DiNalt wrote:
[QUOTE]The more I read this, the more I see that my Sempai is right about not reading online Aikido forums.

I came to realize that those of us who actually _post_ on regular basis, are by default full of shit.

So, since I don't want to be full of shit (or at least people knowing about it, hehe), I will not post anymore.

Cheers.




Mongo wrote:


I usually came here in hopes of reading legitimate posts from the really gifted senseis that drop in once in awhile, but that too has diminished to such a level that it's not worth checking in on anymore. I guess I'd just rather spend my time training.

Jun -

Good luck with this website. Your intentions and hard work maintaining this site are very commendable and I realize you cannot be held accountable for the "moronic" and repetitive posts that show up.

I agree with DiNalt, Mongo, and others who have left this forum due to the childish arguments and Aikido-bashing that takes place here. It seems it only took 31 short years for Aikido martial artists to forget who created Aikido and for what purpose. I guess there will always be a difference between the true Aikidoka and the wanna-be's, who are nothing more than people practicing jujitsu and falsely calling it “Aikido”. I, too, am leaving this forum, but before I leave I will depart with the sacred words of O-Sensei who said: "Without me there is no Aikido."


I also concur with Dinalt etc. I know this may in my case me hipicritical (sp?).


Matt

Matt Banks
04-05-2001, 03:23 PM
Richard Harnack wrote:
Historical point for the "true aikidoka" out there:
remember Kenji Tomiki and Gozo Shioda broke off from Morihei Ueshiba to start their own organizations. Each in their own way felt they were practicing "true aikido".

I do, however, draw a distinction between them and some others who have trained in hapkido or ju-jitsu who feel that by advertising themselves as teaching "Aikido" they will attract more business. We have a local TKD studio whose sign reads "Karate, Judo and Aikido". When pushed the owner will admit that actually it is "Tae Kwon Do, Judo and Hapkido". His reasoning is that more people are aware of Aikido than Hapkido, and that the characters in Korean for Hapkido are analogous to the Japanese characters for Aikido.

Recently, however, I have heard of people who are training with a franchise operation out of Alabama or Louisiana which claims to have 8th degree black belts teaching their special brand of karate and aikido. I have not been able to tie the people who arte training under this system down on the particulars as to who and what their background is.

Has anyone heard of such? Or is this yet someone forming their own organization and promoting themselves?

True Aikido is the one you actually show up to practice, not mouth off about.


Gozo Shioda did not split from o-sensei. The yoshinkan hombu dojo was funded by o'sensei until it could run itself. There was no confrontation/split etc. Yes the dojo was called the yoshinkan, that was the name given my shioda's father. I thought I should clear that up. Osensei often visited the yoshinkan dojo in japan.

Matt Banks

Jim23
04-05-2001, 05:35 PM
Matt Banks wrote:
[QUOTE]
Gozo Shioda did not split from o-sensei. The yoshinkan hombu dojo was funded by o'sensei until it could run itself. There was no confrontation/split etc. Yes the dojo was called the yoshinkan, that was the name given my shioda's father. I thought I should clear that up. Osensei often visited the yoshinkan dojo in japan.

Matt Banks

Thanks Matt,

I didn't know about O'Sensi's involvement with the Yoshinkan.

Stupid question. How do you spell O'Sensi's name. I've seen: O'sensi, O-sensi, Osensi, etc.

Is there a correct way to write this?

Jim23

tedehara
04-05-2001, 06:36 PM
<snip>Richard Harnack quote
Matt Banks wrote:

Gozo Shioda did not split from o-sensei. The yoshinkan hombu dojo was funded by o'sensei until it could run itself. There was no confrontation/split etc. Yes the dojo was called the yoshinkan, that was the name given my shioda's father. I thought I should clear that up. Osensei often visited the yoshinkan dojo in japan.

Matt Banks

Actually, this applies to both Yoshinkan and Tomiki styles. Both styles emerged from Aikikai with no real confrontation or split. It wasn't until Koichi Tohei left to form the Ki Society that there was a real confrontation.

BTW
from Adelaide Yoshinkai Aikido (http://www.cobweb.com.au/~sea_eagle/siteinfo.htm) - South Australia website
Soke Gozo Shioda named his dojo the "Yoshinkan" in honour of his father's dojo and literally means "House for the cultivation of the spirit".

Richard Harnack - There is Karl Geis (http://www.aikidofaq.com/cgi-bin/sensei.pl/Show?_id=485a&sort=DEFAULT&search=10th%20Dan) from Texas, who is listed as a 10th Dan Aikido Fugakukai. The people you mentioned might be part of his organization or they might be on their own. There also is a Henry Copeland (http://www.aikidofaq.com/cgi-bin/sensei.pl/Go?sort=DEFAULT&to=first&search=10th%20Dan) from Florence, Alabama listed as an 8th Dan (Fugakukai).

Jim23 - I tend to use O Sensei, however that doesn't mean the other forms are wrong. Although I'd say the apostrophe is incorrect, since that's commonly used for Irish names like O'Hara.

Mark Cochran
04-05-2001, 06:59 PM
About that real Aikido crack. Well there is a real Aikido. True Aikido is what flows from all of us while we train. While we enjoy our selves with our friends. While we buy some food for a homeless person. True Aikido is a positive action of caring. To mushy for you then how about this. When we first learn Aikido we learn our sensei's interpretation. As we progress and become more skilled we shape it to fit our needs. When the time comes that we use it it is our Aikido. When we teach it we teach our Aikido. Until the time our student reaches a level of skill then it becomes his Aikido.

Nick
04-05-2001, 10:39 PM
Jim-- in my experience, honorifics such as san, kun, and in this case sensei are written in romaji with a (name)-(title)... of course, my experience refers to watching subtitled anime, but at least it's consistent. I usually right it O-sensei.

Nick

ian
04-06-2001, 06:09 AM
I'm probably one of those people that is full of shit which people are complaining about (just look at how many posts I've written). However if you get into futile arguments its your own fault, I just presume responding to people talking rubbish is just encouraging them. I must admit I use this site quite selfishly, and for one of 3 reasons.

1. I'm bored at work and I'm just wasting time (as today)
2. I seriously feel I have something to offer, although really it is just an ego boost to sound like I know what I'm talking about.
3. To find out information from a wide range of aikido people with a diverse and contrasting knowledge and experience.

This final point has been invaluable to me and peoples comments have made me re-evaluate some of my opinions, views and training, even if it takes a while to sink in (for which I'd like to thank everyone, particularly Ted).

Basically I give this site a thumbs up because not only can you get good ideas and information, you are also able to express yourself freely.

Ian

[Edited by ian on April 6, 2001 at 06:15am]

mle
04-08-2001, 07:54 AM
Go Greg! for posting Crazy Ivan's legendary whiner's advisement.
I've met Greg and trained with him, and his aikido is fine, thank you, if a bit growly. ;-)
How is my aikido? Not great. I didn't train under O'Sensei so I guess I don't have any claims.
And I do something my sensei calls aiki-budo which includes weapons and striking, which is nice because now I don't have to cross-train to get that.

Now, a lecture from a crusty old government professor of mine:

"As long as only slime runs for office, you will have slime in office. "

As long as only 13-year-olds post here and get attention, that's all there will be.

Do your part, come by and try to say something intelligent and relevant.

I don't get by nearly often enough and I apologize.
Meanwhile, this is a good place to ask questions because the Real Thing does come by here and check it out.
I know some of them.
Been thrown by some of them.
And I do owe it to the internet community we participate in.

So quitcher bitchin and get busy in the kitchen.

Thanks,

Emily

Nick
04-08-2001, 09:43 AM
mle wrote:
As long as only 13-year-olds post here and get attention, that's all there will be.


I post here... I guess I don't get much attention as there aren't that many people of my age group on this forum... oh well!

Well written and agreed with (cept that lil excerpt, but I can forgive you :))

Gotta go,

Nick

Nick
04-16-2001, 06:01 PM
One more thought about practicing "O'sensei's aikido"... I am not O'sensei. No matter how hard I try, no matter how many hours of training, no matter how much misogi or Omoto-kyo training, I will never disappear and reappear as M. Ueshiba O-sensei. I actually think this to be a good thing. If I came out with all of O-sensei's skills, wisdom, etc, I would really feel cheated-- I would have all of the know-how but none of the understanding that comes from traversing the path-- O-sensei had his, and I have mine. While I do aspire to ideals such as O-sensei had, I would prefer not to follow in his footsteps, but rather seek what he sought (yes, that is a Basho paraphrase).

In conclusion, 'O-sensei's Aikido' may have been sacred, but it no longer exists. I would prefer to walk my own path, and simply give gratitude to O-sensei for showing me where it started and the first few branches of it.

Nick

Jim23
04-16-2001, 06:12 PM
Originally posted by Nick
One more thought about practicing "O'sensei's aikido"...


Nick, Caught ya!

I had a friend whose surname was Ohashi - another good Irish name. Maybe not.

Jim23

Nick
04-16-2001, 07:13 PM
Hah, oh well... I was in a hurry and have been playing Go since I got home, so my mental energies are drained... does anyone else have something to add or should we file this thread under "looked at, laughed at, forgotten" section?

By the way, for any Nihongo speakers, couldn't O-hashi be translated as "Great Chopstick"?

Nick

Greg Jennings
04-16-2001, 11:14 PM
Originally posted by mle
Go Greg! for posting Crazy Ivan's legendary whiner's advisement.

Hi Emily,
I've been channeling Ivan quite a lot recently. Someone has to, right?


I've met Greg and trained with him, and his aikido is fine, thank you, if a bit growly. ;-)

That's funny. I hadn't growled for a long time till tonight. We did morotedori hijinage kihonwaza. I was focusing on doing it slowly and very cleanly. I found myself growling again. It's just a long, slow motion kiai.

I'm looking forward to training with you again this fall at the Aikido-L seminar. We'll have fun.


How is my aikido? Not great

I thought your Aikido was beautiful. Not Jim beautiful, not Jun beautiful, but Emily beautiful.

I love the "flush" variation of shihonage that you do.

Best Regards,

George S. Ledyard
04-20-2001, 10:43 AM
Originally posted by Greg Jennings


It gets on my nerves when someone cops a claim to being a "True Aikidoka" and calls the rest of us "wanna-be's" (and to my knowledge hasn't trained with any of us).

I get really sick of people telling me I'm not practicing Aikido. I train sincerely. I have a direct lineage to the Founder. That should be good enough.

[Edited by Greg Jennings on April 5, 2001 at 01:29pm]
Don't worry! You are in good company. I have heard people who never even met the Founder of Aikido and whose sole exposure to him was the thirty or so pages of his writings that have been translated into English, state that my teacher, Saotome Sensei, wasn't doing real Aikido when he showed the martial application of techniques. And he had fifteen years of training with the Founder. There are tons of people around who want Aikido to be something that fulfills their wishes and anything that doesn't fit is discounted. Don't worry about it. It doesn't go away anyway.

mike lee
06-16-2002, 11:27 AM
I saw an interview with O'Sensei done in Japan in the 1950's. He made his whole purpose quite clear. He said that up until his time, martial arts had been a budo of violence. He said that he found this situation to be fundamentally wrong and that he wanted Aikido to be a budo of love.

If Aikidoka truly understood this, there would hardly be any need for most of the discussions on these forums.

Some people, despite their lack of training, think they can play aikido like a poker game -- holding a few cards such as "the lineage card" or the "my shihan trained longer with O'Sensei than your shihan" card. They think that a few such cards will help them to out bluff anyone so that they can "win" any aikido discussion.

Problem is "aikido cards" and bluffs are of little or no value during the course of training or on the street.:rolleyes:

Paula Lydon
06-22-2002, 11:37 PM
My, my...I'm new to this website and isn't this an interesting thread to stumble upon? I can't say I know poop, but I know that I embraced Aikido because it seemed the only martial art I've been exposed to--I've studied a number--that makes a direct effort to blend the violence of martial training with spiritual/character development. All sorts of people train in my dojo, for as many reasons. You know, some like it hot, some like it cold...For me, I need the balance of light AND dark, need to walk that razor's edge between two extremes, for this feels closest to some truth. I don't care what you call it, don't care who's better than who. I come, I train, I experience, I grow.
Jun--definately thanks for this website because even in the face of squabbling and pettiness...hey, we're opening up and connecting! Don't you see the humor? :D I think it's a hoot! But then again...it's late :confused: Peace in Aikido, whatever you derive from it.