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Irony
04-03-2001, 08:55 AM
Hi.
I remember a while back people were talking about Aikido in the Olympics with a Tomiki style competition. If I remember right a lot of people were adamantly against the idea of competitive Aikido in the Olympics. But what if (and a big what if, because it will never happen this way) Aikido were treated as a performance art rather than a point by point MA competition? What if you were judged on the grace of your iriminages and the softness of your ukemi? How many people would change their minds about the Olympics? (And would you try to enter?)

andrew
04-03-2001, 10:07 AM
I don't think the olympic council is ready to be seduced by an event where the wrinkliest competitor wins.

I was sent a mail about some martial arts world games a few months back by what was apparently the "USA martial arts team." Bizarrely, they're set for Ireland as a venue this year.

andrew

tedehara
04-03-2001, 03:12 PM
Irony wrote:
...But what if (and a big what if, because it will never happen this way) Aikido were treated as a performance art rather than a point by point MA competition? What if you were judged on the grace of your iriminages and the softness of your ukemi? How many people would change their minds about the Olympics? (And would you try to enter?)


Sorry Irony but this has already been done. ;)

During the last few years, Koichi Tohei Sensei has devised a Taigi Competition (http://ki-aikido.net/TAIGI/Taigi.html) for the Ki Society.

The participants are given point scores just like gymnastics. However their performance is based on timing, grace and other factors. There are top prizes both for nage and uke, since the participants are judged as pairs.

The focus is on cooperation, not competiton, since both uke and nage want to generate as many points as they can for their performance. However a Taigi Competition will have various other prizes such as top single nage and top single uke, top non-black belt taigi team, etc.

In some cases, one class a week is devoted to taigi training in some Ki Society dojos. It seems to be fairly popular, although I really can't say if it's growing in popularity among the Ki Society.

[Edited by tedehara on April 3, 2001 at 06:51pm]

Irony
04-03-2001, 09:47 PM
Didn't know that. Sorry! Strike that! Reverse it!

Does sound interesting, though...

Jim23
04-03-2001, 10:11 PM
tedehara wrote:
[QUOTE]Irony wrote:
[B]...But what if (and a big what if, because it will never happen this way) Aikido were treated as a performance art rather than a point by point MA competition? What if you were judged on the grace of your iriminages and the softness of your ukemi? How many people would change their minds about the Olympics? (And would you try to enter?)


Sounds simply FAAB!

Maybe they should try this approach for figure skating also. But, suppose they fall. Heavens forbid! Maybe not then.

This is all so, well, just so dangerous.I just LOVE a soft ukemi - it doesn't even hurt.

Love it.

jim23


[Edited by Jim23 on April 4, 2001 at 08:05am]

Karl Kuhn
04-03-2001, 11:13 PM
In the Shodokan/Tomiki Aikido Friendship Games, as they are now called, there are Embu Kata events where an uke/tori pair are judged in manner similar to diving or skating competitions. There is the Kihon Waza (basic 17 techniques allowed in randori) for Yudansha and Mudansha, the Goshin No Kata (core techniques of the self-defence katas and Shodan exam) for Yudansha, Freestyle Kata (techniques culled from all available kata with and some from elsewhere) and occasionally weapons kata. There are a number of criteria that the judges look to in rating the effectivesnes, realization of principles and style of the presentation. It is very cool and informative to see the different approaches and styles the teams bring to it. Also, in VA last summer a new event was introduced that was called the Improv No Kata, Techniques were pulled out of a hat and the teams had less than a full day before presenting them. Great stuff.

As far as the Olympics goes, the last I heard was that if Osaka got the nod in 2008 there was a very good chance that Shodokan Aikido competitions would be on display as demos. There are people for this and those that are, shall we say, more skeptical.

Cheers,
Karl

Kami
04-04-2001, 04:24 AM
Hello, All!

I'm against competition not because it's done in this way or that way, judo-like or in a comparative format, as in Taigi.
I'm against it for the same reasons O-Sensei was : "There are no contests in the Art of Peace. A true warrior is invincible because he or she contests with nothing. "Defeat" means to defeat the mind of contention that we harbor within".
So, IMHO, it does not matter if we do our competition in a Tomiki Format or in a demonstration format as Ki-Aikido. We are competing, that is, there are rules, judges, a desire to win at all costs (who enters in a competition and do not desire to win?) and there will be winners and losers. The winners will be full of pride and the losers will feel bad. Both will be out of center. Perhaps, Ki-Aikido competitions are worse, since we delude ourselves : "THIS IS NOT A COMPETITION! IT'S A FRIENDLY DEMONSTRATION, WITH NO WINNERS AND NO LOSERS!" Sorry, but there will be winners and losers and it IS a competition.
Also, as in all competitive formats, the art of Aikido will suffer. See judo at Kyuzo Mifune's time and see judo now, after the inclusion of competitions. Judo became a competitive sport, not a martial art. The number of techniques were severely reduced; pure technique has been supplanted by strength; and it's very common to see winners jump and strut like peacocks around the arena, with a savage happiness in their faces, whilst losers get out absolutely dismayed. I saw brazilian champion Aurélio Miguel crying uncontrollably after winning JUST the second place...The same thing happened in Karate and, in the worst possible way, in Taekwondo.
Sorry, but I believe competition is eminently bad. Let's hope it never happens in Aikido and that it may continue as it is : an art.
Just my 2 cents...
Kami :)

[Edited by Kami on April 4, 2001 at 03:28am]

Sam
04-04-2001, 04:33 AM
To pass judgement on aikido being part of the olympics one has to know what exactly the format will be.

As far as I am aware - and I may be
wrong on a few details - is that the format will be a five or seven person team event.

Aikido has to offer something different to judo to be included and therefore must include embu (kata) as part of the event.

Teams will compete against each other for 3 directly competetive events - tanto avoidance, tanto randori, toshu randori. For tanto and toshu randori competitors must be of the same sex.
The embu involves two players from each team and they will perform alongside each other with a judgement made before the next event. I think the embu will include, randori no kata, goshin no kata first eight (suwari waza, hanza handachi waza), goshin no kata second eight (tachi waza) and possibly the nage no kata. The winning team scores the best out of an odd number of events.

I saw this format demonstrated at the International Tomiki Aikido festival in Brisbane and have tried it myself. I found it very enjoyable whilst suitably taxing.

I think that this format would be an excellent spectator event and place the correct amount of emphasis on kata development. This would prevent degeneration of the overall event and art to the situation judo is now in.

I think Karl is right about the 2008 demonstration deadline, but I believe aikido is competing with kendo for the place in the games.

JJF
04-04-2001, 06:27 AM
Well spoken Kami - In my opinion Kendo should get in there as part of the olympics since it is one of the most competitive MA I know of. It would however be wonderful with a demonstration of Aikido without ANY aspect of competition. It could direct attention towards Aikido and the difference compared to all the highly competitive sports would be evident to everybody. Regreatably this is not likely to happen. Olympics is not any more a about being part of it - but a matter of winning - winning to promote ones own ego, ones country and ones trainer. Come to think of it it's rather sad.

andrew
04-04-2001, 06:59 AM
Aikido online (www.aikidoonline.com) just published the second part of an interview with the doshu where he's asked about competition..

andrew

Sam
04-04-2001, 07:13 AM
Kami wrote:


<snip>
Also, as in all competitive formats, the art of Aikido will suffer
<snip>

[Edited by Kami on April 4, 2001 at 03:28am]

I can understand that you do not want to see competition in your aikido.
I too believe that competition is not suitable for the practice of traditional aikido.

However I strongly object to the suggestion that competition in aikido is morally wrong and that it will somehow harm aikido.

We need to make a distinction between the aikido which Tomiki taught and the aikido O'sensei taught. Fundamentally they are different in practice and philosophy. Only the waza are the same.
Tomiki aikido owes a great deal of its philosophy and the developement of certain waza to Kano Jigoro who had an equal influence to O'sensei on Professor Tomiki.
Therefore I believe that tomiki aikido is not subject to the same moral rules. We have our own guiding beliefs which happen to include randori.

Of course the inclusion of the olympics will lead to a minority of people 'manhandling' the art, but I believe that a true art can withstand this. The embu element is present to exclude this type of developement. If a person seeks to do well, they will be unable to avoid the need for correct technique - as you know it is impossible to do embu if you intend to change what you see to suit yourself - it will no longer be the correct technique.
Even in randori you will only progress if your waza are correct - aikido is not forgiving of modification and has a way of dousing people with big ideas. But you cannot know this unless you do it.

I am trying to justify myself, and maybe I should not. I try to be an open minded preson and that is why I am not upset despite the fact that a lot of people feel free to critise Professor. Tomiki although it would be blasphemous to critise their founder/shihan.
Please dicuss competition, but you have no right to take the moral high ground here.

Jim23
04-04-2001, 09:24 AM
Kami wrote:
I saw brazilian champion Aurélio Miguel crying uncontrollably after winning JUST the second place...

You went to watch this? Did you pay?

Jim23

tedehara
04-04-2001, 10:15 AM
Just because something is done in a competitive event, doesn't make it any easier to do. An average Ki Society taigi is composed of 6 techniques done on both sides, or a total of 12 techniques. You also do more than one taigi. I would rather do a 4 man multi-attack (randori) than be either nage or uke in a taigi. In a randori you are judged by how well you survive the attack. In a taigi, every little movement is scrutinized by a panel of judges.

It's clear from Doshu's online interview (http://www.aikidoonline.com/feat_0401_waka.html) that Aikikai isn't having any sort of competition soon. But who's to say that another organization, like Tomiki style, can't have an Olympic Aikido event? It would just showcase their competitive style of Aikido at a higher level. Also, the visibility of the event could help create interest in all styles of Aikido.

Like Kami mentioned, competition has taken over Judo. However, there are also judo groups like Zen Judo (http://www.zenjudo.com/) which are non-competitive and concentrate on perfecting technique. Perhaps there is also enough room in the world for both a martial art and competitive approach to Aikido.

Kelvin
04-04-2001, 11:52 AM
Kami wrote:
Hello, All!

I'm against competition not because it's done in this way or that way, judo-like or in a comparative format, as in Taigi.
I'm against it for the same reasons O-Sensei was : "There are no contests in the Art of Peace. A true warrior is invincible because he or she contests with nothing. "Defeat" means to defeat the mind of contention that we harbor within".
So, IMHO, it does not matter if we do our competition in a Tomiki Format or in a demonstration format as Ki-Aikido. We are competing, that is, there are rules, judges, a desire to win at all costs (who enters in a competition and do not desire to win?) and there will be winners and losers. The winners will be full of pride and the losers will feel bad. Both will be out of center. Perhaps, Ki-Aikido competitions are worse, since we delude ourselves : "THIS IS NOT A COMPETITION! IT'S A FRIENDLY DEMONSTRATION, WITH NO WINNERS AND NO LOSERS!" Sorry, but there will be winners and losers and it IS a competition.
Also, as in all competitive formats, the art of Aikido will suffer. See judo at Kyuzo Mifune's time and see judo now, after the inclusion of competitions. Judo became a competitive sport, not a martial art. The number of techniques were severely reduced; pure technique has been supplanted by strength; and it's very common to see winners jump and strut like peacocks around the arena, with a savage happiness in their faces, whilst losers get out absolutely dismayed. I saw brazilian champion Aurélio Miguel crying uncontrollably after winning JUST the second place...The same thing happened in Karate and, in the worst possible way, in Taekwondo.
Sorry, but I believe competition is eminently bad. Let's hope it never happens in Aikido and that it may continue as it is : an art.
Just my 2 cents...
Kami :)

[Edited by Kami on April 4, 2001 at 03:28am]

Competition is part and parcel of life. It is linked to one's ego. Only the enlightened masters like O'sensei who have reached that high level of oneness with the universe can truly reject competition. For the rest of us, trying to reject competition is like trying to reject our humanity. The fact is that at our level we can't do it so forcing ourselves not to have competitive thoughts is forcing ourselves to be something we are not. Everything in nature has its good points and bad points and that includes competition. If the competition is done in a positive atmosphere of mutual learning then why not. One final note, the setting of the competition can be a very positive one like Ki Society's taigi competition. Yes, there will be winners but whether there will be any losers really depend on how the individual look at it. Whether the individual will see it like: yes the other competitors did not win but they take with them the valuable experience, the friendships gain in the course of the competition, so no they are not losers. Or like: there must be winners and losers in every competition, if you don't win, you're a LOSER! Well.. it all depends on the individual.

Irony
04-04-2001, 11:57 AM
As far as competition being detrimental to Aikido on the fundamental level as Kami has pointed out- is anyone going to say that they've never felt a small amount of competitiveness in the dojo? Did you start aikido with someone and realize later that you were competing, perhaps uncounciously? And even in testing, when perhaps you fail a test and one of your peers passes (or vice versa)? Do you not feel the same thrill of victory or the same defeat of loss? While Kami may be correct in his assement of competition I think that this is something that is not just on the physical level of formal competition, but on the individual's mental state while doing Aikido. Maybe as you improve these feelings of competitiveness fade.

Or maybe I'm just a competitive person. Who knows?

Karl Kuhn
04-04-2001, 02:47 PM
The concern about whether "competition" will corrupt Aikido is difficult to address in these forums because without first hand experience with the Shodokan method and its culture people have a tendency to project all of the failures of competitive events onto it. For instance "it's very common to see winners jump and strut like peacocks around the arena, with a savage happiness in their faces, whilst losers get out absolutely dismayed." Now, that makes good copy, but it does not accurately reflect the experience of Randori Shiai. I would caution against people making sweeping generalizations about something they have not experienced. I would also suggest that while some events are like that described, many more are not.

For the record, I studied "traditional" aikido for years before finding my present teacher/dojo. The main reason I switched was the dramatic difference in the egos and posturing, with the Shodokan stylist being much less ego-driven and, oddly, less competitive. That's just my experience and I am in no way saying this is a global problem/situation.

One of things about having our type of randori is that it gives you the opportunity to face "contest" and measure our aikido and ourselves against it. Now, "the desire to win at all costs" will not get you very far, I assure you. In order to play successfully you have to have a deep and immediate understanding of aikido principles and dynamics. You have to be able to transcend the willingness to win, to "make something happen" and have to find a way allow the aikido to happen.

You also need to be having a good day;^) As part of regular training mudansha get the opportunity to play above their heads and yudansha get to be reminded that rank and history are no match for taking your opponent seriously. You also are provided with an opportunity to face a "won/loss" scenario head on and take it for what it's worth. Wining is not always the best answer or the best teacher and that is definitely re-enforced in my personal experience with the form.

As far as competition never happening, well, too late. Not only are there events in the states and through out the world but there is a particularly virulant strain active across Japanese college campuses.

Concerning the Olympics, Sam, you are correct about Kendo and thanks for reminding me. And let's face it, what sort of chance does Akido Kyogi stand agianst Kendo?

Peace,
Karl

Ta Kung
04-23-2001, 05:45 AM
I'm new to this forum, and also to Aikido. But anyway, I pray that there will NEVER be Aikido in the Olympics.

Besides Aikido I also practice Taekwon-do (ITF style). And since Tkd came into the Olympics (even if it's WTF; not the style i practice) Tkd is no longer considered a martial art by many people, but a sport. The day people start competing in Aikido, is the day O'sensei will roll in his grave (as we say in Sweden). There must never be any Aikido competition! I thought O'sensei's thoughts on this subject was one of the basic principles all aikidokas learn in the beginning?

Kami
04-23-2001, 09:50 AM
Hello, Guys and Gals!

Whatever we may say, this thread raises much interest. But we must try to be as clear as possible about our points. So, let's see :
KAMI (QUOTE) : "I'm against competition not because it's done in this way or that way...I'm against it for the same reasons O-Sensei was : "There are no contests in the Art of Peace. A true warrior is invincible because he or she contests with nothing. "Defeat" means to defeat the mind of contention that we harbor within"."

SAM (QUOTE) : "I strongly object to the suggestion that competition in aikido is morally wrong and that it will somehow harm aikido...I try to be an open minded preson and that is why I am not upset despite the fact that a lot of people feel free to critise Professor. Tomiki...Please dicuss competition, but you have no right to take the moral high ground here."

KAMI : (Answer) - Sam, read again my post. There's no moral high ground or accusations that competition is "morally wrong",only that it isn't good based on Aikido principles. Also, no one on this list, up to know, has criticized Tomiki Kenji Sensei. If anyone did, IT WASN'T HERE. We may disagree with Tomiki Kenji's ideas, since he was much more influenced by Kano Jigoro than by Ueshiba Sensei, but that's all. He was a very intelligent man and deserves our respect.
What I did say, following O-Sensei's ideas is that competition is against the better ideas of Aikido, since whenever you have a competition (IN ANY INSTANCES) there are winners and losers. IMHO, Aikido is joy, pleasure and cooperation, not competition.

JIM23 (QUOTE) : "Kami wrote:
I saw brazilian champion Aurélio Miguel crying uncontrollably after winning JUST the second place...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You went to watch this? Did you pay?
Jim23"

KAMI : (Answers) - No...It was an open event. To talk about something, one needs to watch it, don't you think?

TEDEEHARA (QUOTE) : "Like Kami mentioned, competition has taken over Judo. However, there are also judo groups like Zen Judo which are non-competitive and concentrate on perfecting technique. Perhaps there is also enough room in the world for both a martial art and competitive approach to Aikido."

KAMI : There isn't, I'm sorry! The Kano Society, the Zen Judo group and a few others, are small islands in the middle of a vast ocean of competition. Competition has the money, the propaganda and the media. How many people in the world ever heard about the Kano Society? Remember that even today many people gets surprised when they hear that Aikido (for the most part) has no competition. "What, no competitions?"

KELVIN (QUOTE) : "Competition is part and parcel of life. It is linked to one's ego. Only the enlightened masters like O'sensei who have reached that high level of oneness with the universe can truly reject competition. For the rest of us, trying to reject competition is like trying to reject our humanity."

KAMI : (Answers) - Death is a part of life and everybody fights against it. Disease is a part of life but everybody tries to avoid it and if they get sick they try to overcome it. Impatience, anger and violence are a part of some people's natures but to live in society we have to fight against it.
The fact that competition (in a violently competitive society in capitalism) is a part of our lives isn't a reason for us to aplaud competition and promote it. I think that quite on the contrary...

IRONY (QUOTE) : "While Kami may be correct in his assessment of competition I think that this is something that is not just on the physical level of formal competition, but on the individual's mental state while doing Aikido."

KAMI : (Answers) - I think that competition enhances and promotes the competitive spirit. The "Individual's mental state" is heavily competitive and agressive or nothing else. "To compete, not to win" is an impossibility

KARL KUHN (QUOTE) : "The concern about whether "competition" will corrupt Aikido is difficult to address in these forums because without first hand experience with the Shodokan method and its culture people have a tendency to project all of the failures of competitive events onto it. For instance "it's very common to see winners jump and strut like peacocks around the arena, with a savage happiness in their faces, whilst losers get out absolutely dismayed." Now, that makes good copy, but it does not accurately reflect the experience of Randori Shiai. I would caution against people making sweeping generalizations about something they have not experienced. I would also suggest that while some events are like that described, many more are not."

KAMI : (Answers) - Sorry, Karl, but "I would caution against people making sweeping generalizations about something they have not experienced". You don't know me but you claim that I have no experience about Tomiki Aikido. I have and my son has even participated as an invited guest in Tomiki competition. I talk about what I know and what I know is that I saw too many inflated egos in TA. I respect Tomiki Aikido practitioners that enjoy competition. To each his own. But I would remind you that competition, in Tomiki Aikido, never really took hold. There are many Tomiki dojo that do not participate in competition and quite a few offshoots (Fugakukai, Jiyushinkai...) that have abandoned it. Toshu Randori was abandoned after some time and Tanto Randori was the most practiced format. Now I heard that Toshu Randori is being studied again for competition. In Tomiki Aikido competition, the good techniques are rare and are usually seen in the higher grades and it seems the greater part of the competitors are universities's students. Anyway, I do not pontificate on Tomiki Aikido. They have their own organization and their own practitioners. If they choose to have competitions, it's their own concern, not mine. I talk only about non-competitive styles, if they choose to hear me. I have talked long with Peter Goldsbury, Chairman of the International Aikido Federation about this topic. Just as the Doshu (Aikikai), he doesn't like the idea but he's getting some return from Aikikai people.
Finally, the fact that there's competition (in a small scale) in Tomiki and Ki-Aikido (and in an even smaller scale in Yoshinkan) is no indication of the future for Aikido. For my part, I sincerely hope, for the reasons I explained (and not for "moral" reasons), that it will not come to pass.
Best regards and a good, non-competitive, Keiko :)

Moomin
04-23-2001, 10:03 AM
So that's sorted that out then!

Which style is it that they're proposing for the Olympics? If it's one where there's already competition, will this adversely affect other styles? Does anyone know how the competition would be judged? Can we have a few facts?

(If - as mentioned earlier - aikido is up against kendo for a place, wouldn't it be more likely that the shouty one gets chosen? If memory serves they showcased kendo at the Seoul Olympics - and very good it was too!)

Jim23
04-23-2001, 11:19 AM
JIM23 (QUOTE) : "Kami wrote:
I saw brazilian champion Aurélio Miguel crying uncontrollably after winning JUST the second place...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You went to watch this? Did you pay?
Jim23"

KAMI : (Answers) - No...It was an open event. To talk about something, one needs to watch it, don't you think?

Kami,

Not necessarily. Anyway, I apologise if my sarcasm didn't translate well.

Jim23

Kami
04-23-2001, 04:58 PM
Originally posted by Jim23
"Kami,
Not necessarily. Anyway, I apologise if my sarcasm didn't translate well.
Jim23 [/B]

KAMI : Hey, Man! No harm done...This is a discussion board for mature people. I didn't take it bad, I answered also in jest...
Best

PeterR
04-23-2001, 06:34 PM
Originally posted by Kami
KAMI : (Answers) - Sorry, Karl, but "I would caution against people making sweeping generalizations about something they have not experienced". You don't know me but you claim that I have no experience about Tomiki Aikido. I have and my son has even participated as an invited guest in Tomiki competition. I talk about what I know and what I know is that I saw too many inflated egos in TA.


Well exactly how much experience do you have? Both Karl and I have extensive experience in Shodokan and you seem to be describing something that we are unfamiliar with. Based on what I've seen in non-competitive dojos the source of rampant egos has little to do with competition.


But I would remind you that competition, in Tomiki Aikido, never really took hold. There are many Tomiki dojo that do not participate in competition and quite a few offshoots (Fugakukai, Jiyushinkai...) that have abandoned it. Toshu Randori was abandoned after some time and Tanto Randori was the most practiced format. Now I heard that Toshu Randori is being studied again for competition. In Tomiki Aikido competition, the good techniques are rare and are usually seen in the higher grades and it seems the greater part of the competitors are universities's students.


Really - the size of the International events grows each and every time they are held. True, there are dojos and members that do not compete, it is not a requirement and why should it be. The vast majority of Tomiki practioners belong to organizations which participate in competions. The shiai is there to test your Aikido if you want to. It is not easy and not for everybody. However, probably the best tanto randori player in the US is over 50, the winner of the US nationals (a Brit) is 40. At Virginia last summer the range of competitors went from early 20s to mid-50s, I am 39 and compete (not well mind you) and Karl, he is no spring chicken but does pretty good. If college age is the 18-23 crowd they were in the minority. In Japan there is a huge influx of college students (just like any University Aikido dojo) but you go to Honbu you see a very even distribution from 17 to 77. Tanto and Toshu - I forwarded a letter to you from a senior Honbu instructor with respect to your question - seems you ignore or twist things that don't fit your theory. Good techniques are rare - well that's the whole point. Those who compete learn very quickly how difficult it is to pull off techniques which look good in a dojo. Its a real ego destroyer to discover your Aikido is not as hot as you thought and if your good you take home the lessons learnt and apply it to all your Aikido.


Anyway, I do not pontificate on Tomiki Aikido.

Sorry Ubaldo that is exactly what you are doing. Excuse my frustration but my reaction is constantly - where does he get this stuff. I suggest you have far less experience of Shodokan than you think or at the very least your prejudices are clouding your vision.

I have given up trying to explain to you, you have your ideas, but it is very hard for me to sit still and not counter. Each and every point you raise has been answered before and its like water off a duck's back. I am not after converts to Shodokan but I would rather people be exposed to an informed source.

Jim23
04-23-2001, 08:06 PM
Ubaldo,

Be careful, Peter is from Quebec (near Canada), even the Canadians handle them carefully!;)

<YOWEEE!!! Darn, on my back again. Those Tomiki guys are so fine. Easy on the wrist! Ouch!>

I don't do TA, but lots of respect though.

Jim23

Kami
04-24-2001, 05:12 AM
Originally posted by PeterR

Well exactly how much experience do you have? Both Karl and I have extensive experience in Shodokan and you seem to be describing something that we are unfamiliar with.

KAMI : My Dear Peter,

You ask how much experience do I have? Very little and I never pretended to be an expert.You and Karl (as you correctly pointed out) have much more experience than I. What I said (read again my post) is that my personal experience (little as it is) and my son's is the one we posted there. No more, no less...

Based on what I've seen in non-competitive dojos the source of rampant egos has little to do with competition.

KAMI : Rampant egos, of course, aren't privy to any style of Aikido or even elsewhere...

Really - the size of the International events grows each and every time they are held. True, there are dojos and members that do not compete, it is not a requirement and why should it be.

KAMI : About members that do not compete, that's what I said. About the growing size of events, could you please give me some numbers?

Tanto and Toshu - I forwarded a letter to you from a senior Honbu instructor with respect to your question - seems you ignore or twist things that don't fit your theory.

KAMI : I may be absent minded in my old age but, believe me, never a "twister". Could you please tell me where in the Senior Hombu Instrutor's letter was anything denying what I said (the temporary dismissal of Toshu Randori and its possible revival) ?

Good techniques are rare - well that's the whole point. Those who compete learn very quickly how difficult it is to pull off techniques which look good in a dojo.

KAMI : I believe that's exactly what I said.

Sorry Ubaldo that is exactly what you are doing (quote : "pontificating on TA"). Excuse my frustration but my reaction is constantly - where does he get this stuff. I suggest you have far less experience of Shodokan than you think or at the very least your prejudices are clouding your vision.

KAMI : Peter, wherever you got this idea that I have a "great" experience of Tomiki Aikido? I have asked and I have questioned. It has been very difficult, since the emotional content has been very high. Excuse me, but sometimes you take things very personally and you react as if you were being insulted. It's really easy to shut me up :
a) prove to me that Shodokan's competitions do not usually present bad techniques;
b) show me numbers demonstrating the increase of championships and tournaments;
c) prove to me that Toshu Randori wasn't tried and abandoned;
d) I ask questions - Do not answer me with "I think", "I believe", "IT IS!", "I don't think so" .
If you are not so disposed or if you haven't got the time, please spare me! I do not refuse to accept facts, it's just that nothing till now has answered my questions.
And by the way, you only see what you wish. Karl Kuhn said that "I had no experience". I told him I had (some, at least). You take my words as implying I was pretending to have "great experience, at least greater than yours or Karl's". I didn't say that, you did.

I have given up trying to explain to you, you have your ideas, but it is very hard for me to sit still and not counter. Each and every point you raise has been answered before and its like water off a duck's back. I am not after converts to Shodokan but I would rather people be exposed to an informed source.

KAMI : Sorry to hear that, Peter. And I don't think "each and every point" I made "has been answered before". And your last point worries me. It might be construed to mean that only an elite of experts could write in this Forum about anything. Remember, Peter, I asked questions and presented doubts and opinions. My small experience with Shodokan has been in two states and in two different lines. I presented what I saw there. Everybody was free to disagree and write in response (even you). I always answered everyone and unlike you I never questioned anyone's degree of knowledge. This is a free forum, Peter, and everybody is welcome to write and got answers. That's all. If you can't convince others, so what? Perhaps you could explain things a little better, perhaps you have no time to explain things to people you believe are dishonest in his positions ("someone that ignores or twist things that don't fit their theory").
But just saying they are dishonest, is not answering them.
Sincerely sorry for your outburst
Kami

P.S. Also it should be remembered, Peter, that to have an extensive knowledge of things (as you and Karl) does not mean to be above making mistakes. Everybody, including this friend of yours, makes them...

Kami
04-24-2001, 05:34 AM
Originally posted by Jim23
Ubaldo,
Be careful, Peter is from Quebec (near Canada), even the Canadians handle them carefully!;)
<YOWEEE!!! Darn, on my back again. Those Tomiki guys are so fine. Easy on the wrist! Ouch!>
I don't do TA, but lots of respect though.
Jim23

KAMI : Dear Jim,
Have no fear...Peter is hot-tempered but an educated and nice guy from the little I have known of him.
And do not misunderstood me :
a) I have much respect for Kenji Tomiki Sensei, one of the greatest aikido masters;
b) I respect Tomiki Aikido and its practitioners; and
c) my questions are never intended to insult or bring demerit on Shodokan. It's just that there are some things I question, some things I don't like and some things I disagree. It's my hope, nonetheless, that Shodokan practitioners won't take that as a personal offense, which it isn't.
Good keiko

Karl Kuhn
04-24-2001, 12:13 PM
Well, there seems to be a good deal to address here. Late me start by saying that I am concerned about the following:

Ubaldo wrote: " Karl Kuhn said that "I had no experience". " Now, that is a direct quote attributed to me that is a complete fabrication and it troubles me.

I belive you were referring to the following quote that appeared earlier in the thread:
Original Quote:
Ubaldo wote "it's very common to see winners jump and strut like peacocks around the arena, with a savage happiness in their faces, whilst losers get out absolutely dismayed."
I wrote "Now, that makes good copy, but it does not accurately reflect the experience of Randori Shiai. I would caution against people making sweeping generalizations about something they have not experienced. I would also suggest that while some events are like that described, many more are not."

The spirit of my reply may very well have been misinterpreted and for that I apologize. By "experienced" I meant spent some time with and participated in. You have said that you attended an event or two and while you are free to draw conclusions, I still think it is important to understand that many of us do not consider that enough of the picture to make a fair assesment. Again, no where did I say "you had no experience".

The central point in my concern about "experiencing" the method is this: Randori is central to Tomiki's ideas on Aikido education. It is not a thing thrown on to hype up kids or reward "competative" behavior. It is at the core of the educational model. Tomiki was quite clear in this, Kata and Randori work together to create a students aikido. The events that are held are celebrations of Aikido that allow participants an opportunity to better their Aikido. To suggest anything else betrays a lack of understanding or an agenda.

Frankly, I don't have to "prove" anything to you but I would be happy attempt to answer the questions to posted.

a) prove to me that Shodokan's competitions do not usually present bad techniques
Easy. I'll meet you in Osaka in October for the big shindig and you can see for yourself :^) Seriously though, the Embu Kata portion of the competitions presents lovely technique. The techniques in randori are seldom as "pretty" but you can certainly tell when they are successful. The nature of randori is such that the successful techniques have beauty all their own, but it is not as easy to "see" for most people.

b) show me numbers demonstrating the increase of championships and tournaments
Why are you so concerned with the numbers of participants? I have read with great interest your posts on a number forums these past couple of years and respect your passion for Aikido and envy your time to research and post as you have ;^) Osaka will be the biggest yet, but VA last summer could have been better attended.I'm not sure what you are looking for here.

c) prove to me that Toshu Randori wasn't tried and abandoned
This is very interesting in that the question of Toshu and it's inclusion has been the subject of some questions recently- only on the internet and mostly by people that have not attended an event. There is a very simple answer-it was never abandoned. What happened in the US is that the host city has historically has had a good deal of say as to what the event looked like and Toshu was often not included. I believe that this was done both to provide enough time for the seminar days, the Embu Kata and the Tanto Randori and also, because there was not the same level of familiarity with it. It is important to remember that Shodokan Aikido is quite young and it's precense in the US even younger and we are playing a bit of catch up, if you will. This is important to keep in mind if one is trying to judge the method by viewing an event in any given region, not everyone is getting right. Plus, Tanto Randori is easier to judge, play and more fun, IMO.

Also, you wrote:
"But I would remind you that competition, in Tomiki Aikido, never really took hold."

Sorry, this is an unfortunate distortion. Again, Tomiki was very clear about his educational method and this is celebrated worldwide in seminars/competitions. To suggest otherwise is suspect, imo.

Now, there are groups and individuals that have found value in Tomiki's work and use it to some degree in their practice. That's great, that's what it is there for. The two groups you mentioned are not internationally based organizations (they seem to be primarily located in the American south)and I have not had the pleasure of working with them. I have heard great things about the Jiyushinkai from a friend/ senior instructor, however.

I hope this helps,

Karl

BTW, turned 33 last week and feeling every bit the spring chicken, thank you very much:^}

Kami
04-24-2001, 02:58 PM
Originally posted by Karl Kuhn
I am concerned about the following:

Ubaldo wrote: " Karl Kuhn said that "I had no experience". " Now, that is a direct quote attributed to me that is a complete fabrication and it troubles me.

KAMI : Heavy words...You begin by saying that I "fabricate" a quote of yours. What that would make of me? Let's see : I said you accused me of "having no experience". You protest and say that your exact words were :
"I would caution against people making sweeping generalizations about something THEY HAVE NOT EXPERIENCED". Pray, do tell me, if I have not experienced something isn't the same as saying I have no experience about something?

The spirit of my reply may very well have been misinterpreted and for that I apologize. By "experienced" I meant spent some time with and participated in. You have said that you attended an event or two and while you are free to draw conclusions, I still think it is important to understand that many of us do not consider that enough of the picture to make a fair assesment. Again, no where did I say "you had no experience".

KAMI : Now, you make clear what you wanted to say. Of course, now I can understand what you intended to say. But believe me, You didn't say that in your earlier post. Now I think I understand it : "Many of you" do not accept opinions from people, unless they have large experience". I say the same I told before to Peter : This is an open Forum, not a meeting point for experts. Everybody, I think, is free to present his opinions and the more experienced are free to correct anything wrong. By the way, I present my opinion WHY I was against competition in Aikido, not just in Tomiki style. It should be answered in this way, not as a defense against a supposed attack on Shodokan.

Randori is central to Tomiki's ideas on Aikido education. It is not a thing thrown on to hype up kids or reward "competative" behavior. It is at the core of the educational model. Tomiki was quite clear in this, Kata and Randori work together to create a students aikido. The events that are held are celebrations of Aikido that allow participants an opportunity to better their Aikido. To suggest anything else betrays a lack of understanding or an agenda.

KAMI : It's incredible as you read what you wish! Read again my posts, since you wish to criticize them. Tomiki Sensei was a fantastic master, very intelligent and much influenced by Kano Jigoro Sensei. He created competition in Aikido in the same mold as his master (Kano Sensei) promoted competition in Judo. There are "no lack of understanding or agenda". Anyway, remember that Kano Sensei, Ueshiba Sensei, Tomiki Sensei and many others are respected masters, not Gods. They're subject to mistakes and failures as we all are. The introduction of competition in martial arts (in modern times) by Kano Sensei and Tomiki Sensei MIGHT be a mistake.

Frankly, I don't have to "prove" anything to you but

KAMI : Sorry, but I said "prove" not because of any arrogance but for the constant attacks I was suffering based only on opinions. They weren't answers, but just discussion without context.

I would be happy attempt to answer the questions to posted.
a) prove to me that Shodokan's competitions do not usually present bad techniques
Easy. I'll meet you in Osaka in October for the big shindig and you can see for yourself :^) Seriously though, the Embu Kata portion of the competitions presents lovely technique. The techniques in randori are seldom as "pretty" but you can certainly tell when they are successful.

KAMI : As I said...You agree with the thing I proposed that "the techniques in Randori are not pretty". Observe that I made no mention of Kata.

b) show me numbers demonstrating the increase of championships and tournaments
Why are you so concerned with the numbers of participants?

KAMI : Why are you so concerned about disagreeing with me? Since you disagree so much, the only way to end this discussion is to have the most common thing in the world : data on competition. what has been the progress, the number of participants, etc...

I have read with great interest your posts on a number forums these past couple of years and respect your passion for Aikido and envy your time to research and post as you have ;^)

KAMI : There's a reason for that : I'm an invalid and I can no longer practice as I liked. So I have lots of time to train my mind, if not my body. Please, allow me that!

I'm not sure what you are looking for here.

KAMI : I "fabricate" quotes; I talk about "something I have no experience in"(another fabricated quote...); I'm looking for some "hidden and devious" thing...My God, in your opinion, I'm something like an "Evil Genius"...:((

c) prove to me that Toshu Randori wasn't tried and abandoned
This is very interesting in that the question of Toshu and it's inclusion has been the subject of some questions recently- only on the internet and mostly by people that have not attended an event. There is a very simple answer-it was never abandoned. What happened in the US is that the host city has historically has had a good deal of say as to what the event looked like and Toshu was often not included. Plus, Tanto Randori is easier to judge, play and more fun, IMO.

KAMI : Oh, Well...Then I might have to rephrase it : It has been abandoned in many parts, in favor of Tanto Randori. But, in a certain way, you agreed with me that Toshu Randori isn't much seen around...

Also, you wrote:
"But I would remind you that competition, in Tomiki Aikido, never really took hold."

Sorry, this is an unfortunate distortion. To suggest otherwise is suspect, imo.

KAMI : Thank you, again. Now, I'm "suspect"...As I said before, the growth of competition and championships, throughout the world, should be demonstrated by data, not by words. But, as you yourself said before, "you don't feel you have to prove anything to me". So be it...


I hope this helps,
Karl

KAMI : Believe, me, it has!

BTW, turned 33 last week and feeling every bit the spring chicken, thank you very much:^}

KAMI : Turning 60 and feeling very bad but definitely NOT giving up!
Best
The Suspect :)

Jim23
04-24-2001, 03:34 PM
KAMI : There's a reason for that : I'm an invalid and I can no longer practice as I liked. So I have lots of time to train my mind, if not my body. Please, allow me that!


Kami,

Forgive me for asking, but was the cause of your injury aikido related?

If you would prefer not to answer this, I understand.

Jim23

Kami
04-24-2001, 05:58 PM
Originally posted by Jim23
Kami,
Forgive me for asking, but was the cause of your injury aikido related?
If you would prefer not to answer this, I understand.
Jim23

KAMI : Hello, Jim! No problem in answering.
No, my health problems(too long to list here, but basically a severe cardiopaty and a few other ins and outs)are not due to martial arts practice. Quite on the contrary, I have only good memories of my MA practice except for politics. I guess it was my karma... :rolleyes:
The Suspect:D

Chocolateuke
04-24-2001, 10:29 PM
I think a olimpic sport as compition for Aikido would definatly hurt Aikido an here are some reasons why.

1. how many times do you see people walk in a dojo stay for 3min at the most and pronoucnce it fake. you see if it was compition spectarors may ( I am not saying they will but in my expirences). they may think taht it was set and not worthy.

2. IF Tomok Aikido is gonna do olimpics they will probably think all Aikido is like that and 90% of the population proably dosent know there are 101 diff expressions of Aikido ( hint I donno how many there are but heheh) and they might think all aikido is Tomok.

3. People may start Aikido but for the wrong reasons. meaning not for harmony ( which is why we get engergy from training is becasue we are in harmony with the engergy of the universe) but for our egos sake and start to spoil the dojo.

4. I think it could discrourage those that are old and weak or are disabled or have a helath condition and it might prevent them from wanting to train or start becaause they may see only the Atheleticaly built Aikidoka ( I hope not but hey it is and Atheletic event.)

my 2 cents worth..

By the way Jim where are u from??

Sam
04-25-2001, 05:51 AM
Originally posted by Chocolateuke
I think a olimpic sport as compition for Aikido would definatly hurt Aikido an here are some reasons why.

1. how many times do you see people walk in a dojo stay for 3min at the most and pronoucnce it fake. you see if it was compition spectarors may ( I am not saying they will but in my expirences). they may think taht it was set and not worthy.

2. IF Tomok Aikido is gonna do olimpics they will probably think all Aikido is like that and 90% of the population proably dosent know there are 101 diff expressions of Aikido ( hint I donno how many there are but heheh) and they might think all aikido is Tomok.

3. People may start Aikido but for the wrong reasons. meaning not for harmony ( which is why we get engergy from training is becasue we are in harmony with the engergy of the universe) but for our egos sake and start to spoil the dojo.

4. I think it could discrourage those that are old and weak or are disabled or have a helath condition and it might prevent them from wanting to train or start becaause they may see only the Atheleticaly built Aikidoka ( I hope not but hey it is and Atheletic event.)

my 2 cents worth..

By the way Jim where are u from??



Please permit me to make some points about this intersting argument.

1. There is no way a technique could be seen as 'set' in competition because of the nature of randori.

2. The fact that competition attracts public interest cannot be helped. There should however be some effort to distinguish competetive and non-competetive aikido styles.

3. The problem of egos in my experience is very minimal in tomiki aikido. Having experienced competition in many different martial arts, I am suprised by the lack of ego in aikido competition.
There has never been an aikido champion at international level who was not also equally skilled at embu (kata). As we all know kata takes a great deal of work and patience and tends to discourage the egotistical.

4. Of course those who are less physically able for health reasons may find competition success more of a struggle, but that does not mean competition does not have something to offer them. Remember that Randori was always intented a learning tool.
I would also like to mention that the individual who won the US world championships had a severe health condition which is kept at bay by continued aikido (and randori) practise.

andrew
04-25-2001, 06:06 AM
Originally posted by Sam


Whoops! I meant to say There has never been an aikido champion at international level who was NOT also equally skilled at embu (kata).

You could have edited your first post again. There's a button for that somewhere.
andrew

Karl Kuhn
04-27-2001, 12:06 AM
Ubaldo (I hope you do not mind me addressing you in this way, one never knows in this ether),

I had not intended my post as an attack or to upset you, if you have taken offense at some of my comments, I hope you will accept my apology, for that was not the spirit in which they were offered.

That being said.......
You wrote "You begin by saying that I "fabricate" a quote of yours."
That is exactly what you did. You put words in quotation marks next to my name that I did not say or write. It could not be clearer. I can understand you mistaking my plea for people to not hasten to judge something to rashly. I remain a little curious why you excersice such little regard for the rules of language in making vocal your concern. This is not meant as any judgement towards you, please understand.

You said "Many of you" do not accept opinions from people, unless they have large experience".

I like to think that is not the case, for either Peter or myself. Personally, I have been, in my own small way, been trying to point to the larger context that aikido randori/embu kata events exist in within Shodokan Aikido. From my own experience I know that a casual glance does not fill the eye with enough to see what is happening. I am not saying that you do not know anything or that your experiences are without value, far from it. I am simply suggesting that there is more to it. Take someone whose only experience with painting is representational, barouque say, and plop them in front of color field painting by a minimalist- would they see it as a painting? By what rule swould they judge it? Or someone who has only listened to piano concertos is sat with a recording Ornette Colemans double quartet free-jazz freak out- would they hear it as music?

"remember that Kano Sensei, Ueshiba Sensei, Tomiki Sensei and many others are respected masters, not Gods."
Of course. And mistakes they made I'm sure. From my experience their work in the preservation of randori is not a mistake. It is a gift.

KAMI : "...You agree with the thing I proposed that "the techniques in Randori are not pretty".
No, I don't agree. They have a beauty all there own, even when they look like kata. That's ok though, isn't it? Surely we do not have to agree on standards of beauty to have a dialouge?

KAMI : Why are you so concerned about disagreeing with me? Since you disagree so much, the only way to end this discussion is to have the most common thing in the world : data on competition. what has been the progress, the number of participants, etc..."

I'm not concerned with disagreeing with you, as I think we have more in common than not. I am concerned that communications as reflect my experience do just that. What would you do with such data? What point would it prove?

KAMI : Thank you, again. Now, I'm "suspect"...

Not you, your comment. I trust you see the difference. You said "that competition, in Tomiki Aikido, never really took hold" and that is patently not true.

KAMI : As I said before, the growth of competition and championships, throughout the world, should be demonstrated by data, not by words. But, as you yourself said before, "you don't feel you have to prove anything to me". So be it...

I am not sure what you want here, my friend. Why should "the growth of competition and championships, throughout the world, should be demonstrated by data, not by words" when it's not the point. The growth of Shodokan Aikido would be great! It will grow but because of the value of it's method and the quality it's teachers, nothing more nothing less.

I hope that you see my reply here in the spirit it was intended, one of good will and understanding.

Karl

Matt Banks
04-27-2001, 04:37 AM
Hello,

I just wanted say a few words, and I want to know if you agree with them. We must always remember that this is just a discussion forum. For all people know 80% of the people on the forum may have hardly trained in aikido (i doubt it). Dont ever let, persona's you view on a computer screen effect your view of aikido for yourself. I dont train in tomiki aikido, i train in a Yoshinkan afiliation, and people I dont know on this forum, have said they dont agree with certain methods of our aikido training, e.g. live knife jiuwaza and will power training etc, but I dont let it affect the way I see and love aikido. This forum is a great resource (well done jun) but it is not the be all and end all of the aikido population. Many people on the forum come out with statements, which to some seem ridiculous (I know I do) so dont listen to them.

In my opinion the people who do know what their talking about, are not typing on a key board their in the dojo training.

Saying that you do meet people on the forum who have common views on aikido and this leads to great discussions, and both participants learn lots and dont argue. I think its a good idea Jun's brought in this ignore gadjet....nice one.

I have a dreeeeaaaaam when an aikidoka, will be judged...not on his style or affiliation...but byyyyyyyy the content of his character.

Martin Luther King- sort of



Matt Banks

Kami
04-27-2001, 05:01 AM
Originally posted by Karl Kuhn
Ubaldo (I hope you do not mind me addressing you in this way, one never knows in this ether),

KAMI : You might call me CYBER SHIHAN but...Oh, well! Ubaldo will do quite nicely...:)

I had not intended my post as an attack or to upset you, if you have taken offense at some of my comments, I hope you will accept my apology, for that was not the spirit in which they were offered.

KAMI : No offense taken. After all this is a discussion list. :cool:

QUOTES : Kami : "...You agree with the thing I proposed that "THE TECHNIQUES IN RANDORI ARE NOT PRETTY".
Karl : No, I don't agree. They have a beauty all there own, even when they look like kata. That's ok though, isn't it? Surely we do not have to agree on standards of beauty to have a dialouge?

KAMI : Well, I tried to put a quote, as correct as possible, from something YOU said. It seems I was wrong again...


QUOTES : Kami : As I said before, the growth of competition and championships, throughout the world, should be demonstrated by data, not by words. But, as you yourself said before, "you don't feel you have to prove anything to me". So be it...
Karl : I am not sure what you want here, my friend. Why should "the growth of competition and championships, throughout the world, should be demonstrated by data, not by words" when it's not the point. The growth of Shodokan Aikido would be great! It will grow but because of the value of it's method and the quality it's teachers, nothing more nothing less.

KAMI : And that's why we're having a "Battle of Opinions". It will leads us nowhere. The only way it could be clarified would be by presenting data : numbers about growth, etc...
If the data proved that Shodokan Aikido was growing and having many tournaments and champioships, as well as a growth of students in number, I would have nothing more to say, except : "SORRY, I MADE A MISTAKE AND I WAS WRONG". But you do not like that, you're "NOT SURE WHAT I WANT HERE", "You believe that's "NOT THE POINT". That way we'll never arrive at a conclusion. But so be it : we must agree to disagree. I feel your arguments are very weak and you, definitely, do not agree with my points. You do not wish to present data and so, I believe this thread, as it concerns us, is closed.

I hope that you see my reply here in the spirit it was intended, one of good will and understanding.
Karl

KAMI : Of course, Karl! We have debated some things. We're not on a Holy War! :)
Best







:cool:

Moomin
04-27-2001, 07:27 AM
I did a little research and couldn't find out if aikido is to be demonstrated at the 2008 Olympics. However, if it is there's a concensus on this forum that Tomiki would be the style of choice. How likely is this? From what I'd read Ki aikido has is better tailored to Olympic competition and in part was designed that way. Participants would be judged for instance on the grace of their taigi (?) rather than who could perform the most effective technique. I would stress that this is something I know next to nothing about (I'm aikikai myself). I would appeciate any more info.

As I asked earlier, do you think competition in one style would effect another style? I know it might encourage people to turn up to a other aikido dojo but there have been a few who have come to our dojo after watching Segal movies for example and haven't stayed, or harmed our aikido. And the more people turn up, the larger potentially our club could be. Not really a bad thing.

(I was going to appologise for the long post, but it's not really that long, is it...)

PeterR
04-27-2001, 07:51 AM
Greg;

Tomiki style competion also contains Embu which is basically what taigi is. Embu and randori are always part of the competion and if they moved to the Olympics I am sure it would continue to be so.

Karl Kuhn
04-27-2001, 07:00 PM
Ubaldo,

I have no idea what you are on about....

Karl

KAMI : And that's why we're having a "Battle of Opinions". It will leads us nowhere. The only way it could be clarified would be by presenting data : numbers about growth, etc...
If the data proved that Shodokan Aikido was growing and having many tournaments and champioships, as well as a growth of students in number, I would have nothing more to say, except : "SORRY, I MADE A MISTAKE AND I WAS WRONG". But you do not like that, you're "NOT SURE WHAT I WANT HERE", "You believe that's "NOT THE POINT". That way we'll never arrive at a conclusion. But so be it : we must agree to disagree. I feel your arguments are very weak and you, definitely, do not agree with my points. You do not wish to present data and so, I believe this thread, as it concerns us, is closed.

Karl Kuhn
04-27-2001, 10:11 PM
I really have no idea what you are on about.


KAMI : And that's why we're having a "Battle of Opinions". It will leads us nowhere. The only way it could be clarified would be by presenting data : numbers about growth, etc...
If the data proved that Shodokan Aikido was growing and having many tournaments and champioships, as well as a growth of students in number, I would have nothing more to say, except : "SORRY, I MADE A MISTAKE AND I WAS WRONG". But you do not like that, you're "NOT SURE WHAT I WANT HERE", "You believe that's "NOT THE POINT". That way we'll never arrive at a conclusion. But so be it : we must agree to disagree. I feel your arguments are very weak and you, definitely, do not agree with my points. You do not wish to present data and so, I believe this thread, as it concerns us, is closed.

jimvance
04-28-2001, 01:30 AM
Hi everyone!

Isn't it funny how combative people get when they are trying to discuss competition versus cooperation? And all the while Rodney King stands in the background lamenting

"Can't we all just get along?"

so we try to be nice to one another, but that monster deep down in the belly... boy is it ever persuasive.

Appreciate your differences. So much randori in this forum. Who needs the Olympics, there is enough going on right here....

Jim Vance

PS. I am not complaining by the way. Half the time I come here to see a fight and end up reading Aikido posts. The other half is spent wondering whether anyone reads what I post.

Chuck Clark
04-28-2001, 09:24 AM
I read your post Jim.

Some of us will get along and some won't. It's the way of things.

Karl Kuhn
04-28-2001, 05:28 PM
Sorry for the double post, some kind of cache error or something.

I read your post Jim, I guess I missed the fight...........

Karl

PeterR
04-28-2001, 05:51 PM
Ubaldo;

Obtaining numbers for events past present and future is no easy task. Honbu organizes the big events in Japan but the national and non-Japanese International events are organized by other groups. Personally I am not going to contact Honbu and ask for what information they may have primarily since I would have to give a reason beyond I would like to know. I ask quite a bit from these people and I would like to limit the number of e-mails they get from someone as low on the totem pole as I am. There are people there already preparing for my trip. Perhaps while I am in Japan I can ask for the information but as Karl pointed out it would serve no purpose. It wouldn't convince you to the value of competion in AIkido.

Secondly, why do you demand data. It should be enough that either Karl or I say it is the case. If we are dishonest we could feed you fake data and you wouldn't be the wiser. There are people who were at both Imabari, Australia and previous international events - if they say the numbers of people are increasing than it is - whether it is 10, 15 or 50% is immaterial. If they are confident enough to book an entire stadium for the big event in Osaka this October, that should say enough.

No one ever asked you to back up the statement that toshu randori never caught on with hard facts and from my perspective it is enough that those who experienced the events say differently. This is a casual forum - not a court of law.

Kami
04-29-2001, 06:03 AM
Hello, Peter!

I omitted opinions and I asked for answers. If you think those are immaterial things that serve no purpose, as Karl pointed out, so be it. As I said before to Karl, in what it concerns us, I bowed out and this thread, for me, is finished. I'm tired of being misunderstood and, at least, in the case of Karl, called many things(manipulator of quotes; hidden intentions; no conditions to talk about some things...). I sincerely feel there is too much sensibility here and some raw skin. If we can't have a cool debate, it's better to close this thread. I have no need to compete for my opinions or to win a debate. That would be an useless competition, in my opinion. :)
By the way, data is available on a great number of sports and no one asks about people's "intentions" in asking for them. I find it strange they aren't easily available in Shodokan Aikido, at least for their members. You get numbers in soccer, basketball, volleyball, judo, etc...From your words, it seems only in Tomiki Aikido those data are difficult to obtain. If that's the case, from what I gathered from your post, then this thread is finished and at the present stage, we'b better give it up.
Best regards

Originally posted by PeterR
Ubaldo;

Perhaps while I am in Japan I can ask for the information but as Karl pointed out it would serve no purpose. It wouldn't convince you to the value of competion in AIkido.

Secondly, why do you demand data. It should be enough that either Karl or I say it is the case. If we are dishonest we could feed you fake data and you wouldn't be the wiser.

No one ever asked you to back up the statement that toshu randori never caught on with hard facts and from my perspective it is enough that those who experienced the events say differently. This is a casual forum - not a court of law.

PeterR
04-29-2001, 01:17 PM
Originally posted by Kami
I find it strange they aren't easily available in Shodokan Aikido, at least for their members. You get numbers in soccer, basketball, volleyball, judo, etc...From your words, it seems only in Tomiki Aikido those data are difficult to obtain.

I just said no one organization keeps track of all these things. I don't think great importance is attached to it and there is no world governing body. I'm sure if you wrote to several organizations and found someone who has done the calculations you might be able to get the information togeather. Your best bet is the British Aikido Association which because of the size of their country and the regularity of their events might be able to give you significant numbers about the growth or decline of shiai. That of course would only apply to that country.

Even in Japan, as I've stated elsewhere, one attends maybe two events a year. College students, because of University events, one maybe two more. Shodokan Aikido is not competion driven - the goal is not the same as soccer, basketball, volleyball or even judo at the international level. Karl, myself and others, who train from within the organization, have tried to explain this to you. Keeping score is not a priority.

mj
04-29-2001, 02:58 PM
Hi, everyone. What about the long term effects of competition in aikido? If aikido goes to the olympics, and is successful... then sponsorship rears it's ugly head. People start going to 'winning' clubs, teachers and (potential) students are dismissive of clubs that are not 'winners'.
Many techniques that are not 'effective' (under competition 'rules') will be dropped from the syllabus. Eventually kata will deteriorate into something for 'weak' people who can't make it in 'real' aikido?
Just a thought.

PeterR
04-29-2001, 03:33 PM
Originally posted by mj
.
Many techniques that are not 'effective' (under competition 'rules') will be dropped from the syllabus. Eventually kata will deteriorate into something for 'weak' people who can't make it in 'real' aikido?
Just a thought.

Scroll back to Sam's post on April 4th and mine on April 27th on this thread. It all revolves around what those rules are.

Worse case scenerio about the sponsership but a view not totally without merit. Still if you look at Judo there are thousands of clubs in cities throughout the world that happily co-exist with more compeditive clubs and survive just fine on their own merits.

Kami
04-30-2001, 04:58 AM
Originally posted by PeterR

Still if you look at Judo there are thousands of clubs in cities throughout the world that happily co-exist with more compeditive clubs and survive just fine on their own merits.


KAMI : Well, I can't really resist that...Even at the risk of being misunderstood, I'll have to ask :
I know conditions in my country (Brazil). In Brazil, I know of only one organization that practices judo non-competitively and it's mostly ignored by the Judo (competitive) community and almost unknown for the world at large. How's the situation in other countries (USA, France, Italy, Portugal,England...), with the sole exception of the Kano Society? Does anyone agrees with Peter's description ("thousand of clubs in cities throughout the world that happily co-exist with more competitive clubs and survive just fine on their own merits...")? Does anyone agrees with that and know these non-competitive clubs? I'm really curious!:confused:
Please, take this in honesty! Try not to attack me!:(

PeterR
04-30-2001, 08:11 AM
I meant in the context of the post I answered. There are clubs which focus on producing national and international champions and there are local clubs where people go to do Judo. Maybe they compete at the local level, maybe they only do randori in the club itself - this is what I meant by less competitive.

People start going to 'winning' clubs, teachers and (potential) students are dismissive of clubs that are not 'winners'.


I said

co-exist with more competitive clubs

In context it is very clear what I meant - not sure how you got to

Does anyone agrees with that and know these non-competitive clubs?

Kami
04-30-2001, 10:26 AM
Originally posted by PeterR
I meant in the context of the post I answered. There are clubs which focus on producing national and international champions and there are local clubs where people go to do Judo. Maybe they compete at the local level, maybe they only do randori in the club itself - this is what I meant by less competitive.


KAMI : Thanks for your explanation. All is clear now.
Best

Chuck Clark
04-30-2001, 10:46 AM
Ubaldo & Peter,

Hope you don't mind a bit of noise from me at this point.

In my experience of judo in the US (over the past 47 years) most of the clubs/dojo are doing kyogi judo (sport)as opposed to tadashi judo ("proper" judo or principle based practice) and even the ones who say they aren't interested in sport or tournaments are doing techniques that have been altered to fit what wins in today's "koka judo" style.

The style of technique and the philosophy being taught by most of these "coaches" is based on what will win without going through the process of learning good judo. I have seen quite a few national level competitors who, in my estimation, don't know judo and have no hope of teaching judo properly to others. They were good athletes and scrappers and were taught just enough to win. These "coaches" want to be known as teachers of champions. In the end, this style of judo will evolve into something that is so non-judo-like that it will obviously not even be thought of as judo anymore. I suspect it's not far from that now.

As you can see, I have a strong opinion about this. It breaks my heart.

Regards,

mj
04-30-2001, 01:00 PM
Actually, if you are taking Judo as an example, worldwide membership dropped from its peak of 12 million in the 1980's, when it was at its most popular, to under 4 million in the late 90's, after sponsorship based competition and 'payed' Judo came more powerfully into being. There are a lot less clubs now, after it became a 'sport'. The same would happen in aikido.
I haven't read all the posts on this thread, so forgive me if I've repeated what someone else has said.

PeterR
04-30-2001, 01:12 PM
Popularity rises and falls but interesting point.

I always understood that sports with a professional component do better membership wise since they are in the public eye. Then again, I religiously avoid "popular" sports - I like to be relatively unique. Maybe from a martial arts perspective I am not so unique after all.

By the way wasn't Judo a sport during the 1980s?



Originally posted by mj
Actually, if you are taking Judo as an example, worldwide membership dropped from its peak of 12 million in the 1980's, when it was at its most popular, to under 4 million in the late 90's, after sponsorship based competition and 'payed' Judo came more powerfully into being. There are a lot less clubs now, after it became a 'sport'. The same would happen in aikido.
I haven't read all the posts on this thread, so forgive me if I've repeated what someone else has said.

mj
04-30-2001, 01:26 PM
Yes, but it was only in the 80's onwards that Japan's grip on all the different weights in world/olympic competition was prised loose. The start of the downfall of Judo as a MA was when different weight divisions were brought in, very early, which - again - changes the way people teach and learn.
Professional sports make more money, they weed out smaller clubs very quickly and cherry pick only the best competitors to stay around, usually (usually) as children.

Moomin
05-02-2001, 07:38 AM
Originally posted by mj
Professional sports make more money, they weed out smaller clubs very quickly and cherry pick only the best competitors to stay around, usually (usually) as children.


(The number of football [soccer] clubs around the UK playing at every level would suggest that this is not the case. Unless you mean professional martial arts clubs.)

If aikido developed into an international/Olympic sport who would compete?