Please visit our sponsor:
Haruo Matsuoka Seminar in Colorado - Join us 1/30-2/1/2009 for a powerful Aikido seminar in Castle Rock, CO
View Full Version : Article: "Is Aikido a Martial Art?"
Haruo Matsuoka Seminar in Colorado - Join us 1/30-2/1/2009 for a powerful Aikido seminar in Castle Rock, CO
akiy
12-01-2004, 06:43 PM
Written, it seems, by Henry Ellis. Starts out, "At first sight of the above title I am sure that a lot of Aikidoist's will be angry; they will assume that this is yet another attack on the credibility of Aikido by other martial artists. On this occasion they are totally wrong. I have been a student of Aikido since 1956. In those early days I first started Judo in 1955 at the Kenshiro Abbe School of Budo, and I studied Karate with Harada Sensei and Kendo with Tomio O'Tani Sensei, so with my background I feel that I have something to offer to this debate."
http://martialarts.about.com/od/styles/a/IsAikido1.htm
-- Jun
http://martialarts.about.com/od/styles/a/IsAikido1.htm
-- Jun
mj
12-01-2004, 06:55 PM
Henry Ellis only surfaces to cause trouble it seems, sadly.
He never seems to recount the story of when Abbe sensei left England. Or why. And what was said by him.
Perhaps 'he would have something more to offer this debate' if he actually took part in any of it, apart from the regular though infrequent insults.
He never seems to recount the story of when Abbe sensei left England. Or why. And what was said by him.
Perhaps 'he would have something more to offer this debate' if he actually took part in any of it, apart from the regular though infrequent insults.
PeterR
12-01-2004, 07:28 PM
Perhaps Mark you can recount the story.
I didn't find the aerticle particularily insulting.
I didn't find the aerticle particularily insulting.
Bronson
12-01-2004, 09:56 PM
I didn't find the aerticle particularily insulting.
Neither did I, and I suppose I'd be considered one of the "dancers" by his standards.
He is entitled to think and train as he wishes. His training has no bearing on mine.
Bronson
Neither did I, and I suppose I'd be considered one of the "dancers" by his standards.
He is entitled to think and train as he wishes. His training has no bearing on mine.
Bronson
maikerus
12-01-2004, 10:27 PM
Interesting arcticle.
It doesn't really seem to have any bearing on whether Aikido is or is not a martial art, but is a story of how one man started Aikido. I enjoyed it. I especially liked the thing with the knife on page 2 :)
--Michael
It doesn't really seem to have any bearing on whether Aikido is or is not a martial art, but is a story of how one man started Aikido. I enjoyed it. I especially liked the thing with the knife on page 2 :)
--Michael
CNYMike
12-01-2004, 10:31 PM
....He never seems to recount the story of when Abbe sensei left England. Or why. And what was said by him....
What happened? I don't know that one either.
As to the article, well, the first thought that popped into my mind was that I've done seminars under Sifu Dan Inosnato and and Maha Guru Victor de Thouars. Both of them are in their 60s; I don't think anyone in their right mind would say either of them has lost their spirit. I've also heard stories of how spry Shotokan's Kanazawa Sensei is in his 70s; the Shotokan teacher I once had keeps saying, "I'd execpt a man of 20 or 30 to move like that, but not one of 73!" By the time he was an old man, O Sensei had studied, practiced, and taught martial arts since (I think) his late teens; he contunued training right up to his death AFAIK. The idea that he slowed down and lost his spirit is laughable. One of the instructors interviewed for a New York Aikikai DVD recounted how fast O Sensei was only a few years before his death. I've also read acounts about how his joint locks never lost their effectiveness -- to say the least -- as he got older.
A second falacy is that O Sensei was interested in fighting until he got older and then became more spiritual; from what I have read, O Sensei had always viewed martial arts training as part of a spiritual development. He was only in his 40s -- not much older than I am now -- when he had the revelation that would lead him to founding Aikido.
So on both major points, that O Sensei "got religion" as he got older; and that his abilities faded with age, it looks to me that Mr. Ellis is doing a convincing imitation of part of a horse's anatomy.
WRT "the dance," in the year since my Kali instructor was granted permission to teach Pentjak Silat Serak, I have had the virtues of training safely drilled into me. When doing throws in Kali and Serak, although the techniques may be more "combative" than Aikido, we aren't going much faster than in Aikido class -- sometimes slower! Doing the "the dance" relatively slowly and safely is a good way to learn the mechancis. In fact, I've been speculating that a case can be made that the post-WW2 changes to Aikido were designed to make it safer for the general public to investigate the art without accidentally killing each other.
As to the irony of an Aikido person starting a fight (and succeeding), I leave that for other minds to ponder.
My 2p.
Hormat ....
Mas Mike
What happened? I don't know that one either.
As to the article, well, the first thought that popped into my mind was that I've done seminars under Sifu Dan Inosnato and and Maha Guru Victor de Thouars. Both of them are in their 60s; I don't think anyone in their right mind would say either of them has lost their spirit. I've also heard stories of how spry Shotokan's Kanazawa Sensei is in his 70s; the Shotokan teacher I once had keeps saying, "I'd execpt a man of 20 or 30 to move like that, but not one of 73!" By the time he was an old man, O Sensei had studied, practiced, and taught martial arts since (I think) his late teens; he contunued training right up to his death AFAIK. The idea that he slowed down and lost his spirit is laughable. One of the instructors interviewed for a New York Aikikai DVD recounted how fast O Sensei was only a few years before his death. I've also read acounts about how his joint locks never lost their effectiveness -- to say the least -- as he got older.
A second falacy is that O Sensei was interested in fighting until he got older and then became more spiritual; from what I have read, O Sensei had always viewed martial arts training as part of a spiritual development. He was only in his 40s -- not much older than I am now -- when he had the revelation that would lead him to founding Aikido.
So on both major points, that O Sensei "got religion" as he got older; and that his abilities faded with age, it looks to me that Mr. Ellis is doing a convincing imitation of part of a horse's anatomy.
WRT "the dance," in the year since my Kali instructor was granted permission to teach Pentjak Silat Serak, I have had the virtues of training safely drilled into me. When doing throws in Kali and Serak, although the techniques may be more "combative" than Aikido, we aren't going much faster than in Aikido class -- sometimes slower! Doing the "the dance" relatively slowly and safely is a good way to learn the mechancis. In fact, I've been speculating that a case can be made that the post-WW2 changes to Aikido were designed to make it safer for the general public to investigate the art without accidentally killing each other.
As to the irony of an Aikido person starting a fight (and succeeding), I leave that for other minds to ponder.
My 2p.
Hormat ....
Mas Mike
Nick P.
12-01-2004, 10:35 PM
Interesting article, but why would you pepper it with personal opinions, many of which could be considered antagonizing? Would it not just be easier to write an opinion peace?
"I think we can safely assume that as these teachers were so hard and positive then this must have been the style of Aikido that was being taught at the Hombu dojo in Japan." Maybe they were so out-of-line with what O-Sensei was trying to teach them, or maybe Hombu just got fed up with the megalomaniacs cracking heads left and right and banished them ;)
Whatever....
And why/how did Abbe sensei leave?
"I think we can safely assume that as these teachers were so hard and positive then this must have been the style of Aikido that was being taught at the Hombu dojo in Japan." Maybe they were so out-of-line with what O-Sensei was trying to teach them, or maybe Hombu just got fed up with the megalomaniacs cracking heads left and right and banished them ;)
Whatever....
And why/how did Abbe sensei leave?
PeterR
12-01-2004, 10:37 PM
The implication of the article is that since there early Aikidoists were hard, then Aikido back then was hard.
This is somewhat like listening to certain classics of rock and roll and comparing it to the vast amount of drivel that exist today. Forgetting of course that the vast amount of drivel from back then was - well forgotten.
I personally am not too impressed by some of the directions Aikido has gone but I think it is incorrect to assume that all members of the early post-war Aikikai were as intense as say Chiba. There are interviews of members of the pre-war dojo where the person points out how important safety was by way of example. I think Hell dojo had more to do with the lack of mats.
This is somewhat like listening to certain classics of rock and roll and comparing it to the vast amount of drivel that exist today. Forgetting of course that the vast amount of drivel from back then was - well forgotten.
I personally am not too impressed by some of the directions Aikido has gone but I think it is incorrect to assume that all members of the early post-war Aikikai were as intense as say Chiba. There are interviews of members of the pre-war dojo where the person points out how important safety was by way of example. I think Hell dojo had more to do with the lack of mats.
Rupert Atkinson
12-01-2004, 10:45 PM
I too would like to know the story of why he left, if there is such a story. I heard he had a car accident at some point. One story I do know is that an art I used to practise in the UK, Kyushindo, was founded by him. One story I heard was that he used to be a Judo teacher but caused a problem when he promoted a brown belt to black belt because he easily bounced several 1st and 2nd Dans. Abe said that he was ready and so graded him - but such an approach side-tracked the British Judo Association grading rules etc etc. I think Abe left and formed the British Judo Council, and then came Kyushindo. Not sure exactly ... any clarification appreciated.
David Yap
12-01-2004, 10:47 PM
Henry Ellis only surfaces to cause trouble it seems, sadly.
He never seems to recount the story of when Abbe sensei left England. Or why. And what was said by him.
Perhaps 'he would have something more to offer this debate' if he actually took part in any of it, apart from the regular though infrequent insults.
Hi Mark,
As per Peter, I found no offending insults/trouble in Henry Ellis' article. IMO, he merely compared the aikido that was practiced in 50's-60's with the present state; in the same way as one would compare karate or judo then and present.
I can relate his feelings to the other recent posts here: "Dropping of teaching standards", "Instructors' qualities and characteristics", "Students' qualities and characteristics" and the lastest video clip in the humor section "You are attacking me wrongly".
The only area that I do not agree with Henry is his definition of the word - Art. He could mean:
Aikido - The art of self defense
Aikido - The art of peace
Aikido - The art of dancing
Aikido - The art of choreography
Aikido - The art of sociology
and the list goes on...
O sensei said, "My aikido means different things to different people" - my take is that he meant his students would read different principles being applied in his technique. But some instructors take his quote differently. The best BS that I come across is still this:
"Different people practice aikido for different reasons, some just to sweat, some treat it like a game of badminton, some train for self-defense and some treat it like aerobics". This statement implies that he teaching aikido to the needs of the students which can be anything but a martial art. On the other side of the coin, I have people practicing to hurt others and the teacher just don't bother.
O sensei did not create a fake martial art. Commercialism did.
Regards
David Y
PS Nobody gets dislocated joints or broken bones playing badminton or doing aerobics - very very rare.
He never seems to recount the story of when Abbe sensei left England. Or why. And what was said by him.
Perhaps 'he would have something more to offer this debate' if he actually took part in any of it, apart from the regular though infrequent insults.
Hi Mark,
As per Peter, I found no offending insults/trouble in Henry Ellis' article. IMO, he merely compared the aikido that was practiced in 50's-60's with the present state; in the same way as one would compare karate or judo then and present.
I can relate his feelings to the other recent posts here: "Dropping of teaching standards", "Instructors' qualities and characteristics", "Students' qualities and characteristics" and the lastest video clip in the humor section "You are attacking me wrongly".
The only area that I do not agree with Henry is his definition of the word - Art. He could mean:
Aikido - The art of self defense
Aikido - The art of peace
Aikido - The art of dancing
Aikido - The art of choreography
Aikido - The art of sociology
and the list goes on...
O sensei said, "My aikido means different things to different people" - my take is that he meant his students would read different principles being applied in his technique. But some instructors take his quote differently. The best BS that I come across is still this:
"Different people practice aikido for different reasons, some just to sweat, some treat it like a game of badminton, some train for self-defense and some treat it like aerobics". This statement implies that he teaching aikido to the needs of the students which can be anything but a martial art. On the other side of the coin, I have people practicing to hurt others and the teacher just don't bother.
O sensei did not create a fake martial art. Commercialism did.
Regards
David Y
PS Nobody gets dislocated joints or broken bones playing badminton or doing aerobics - very very rare.
PeterR
12-01-2004, 11:03 PM
PS Nobody gets dislocated joints or broken bones playing badminton or doing aerobics - very very rare.
It's a bit of a running joke at the moment. One of my students dropped out of the Kansai Taikai held last week-end because he broke a bone playing table tennis. Now we warned him about playing those dangerous games but would he listen? Noooooo.
It's a bit of a running joke at the moment. One of my students dropped out of the Kansai Taikai held last week-end because he broke a bone playing table tennis. Now we warned him about playing those dangerous games but would he listen? Noooooo.
Magnus Brown
12-02-2004, 05:22 AM
Henry Ellis only surfaces to cause trouble it seems, sadly.
He never seems to recount the story of when Abbe sensei left England. Or why. And what was said by him.
Perhaps 'he would have something more to offer this debate' if he actually took part in any of it, apart from the regular though infrequent insults.
As a student of Henry's I would disagree that he only causes trouble and I would actually like to hear the insults he has made as I don't believe he would do that off-hand. If you mean he says that other aikido styles are crap and that bothers you or you think he implies your style is crap then get on the mat and prove it isn't but don't stand back and say "oo he's saying we're rubbish what an insulting man he is". Come on down and try his style then comment on it.
But lets hear the story of why Abbe sensie left and what he said I'm interested to hear what you know about it. There seems to be very little on the web regarding sensei Abbe and it seems a shame considering all the work he put into the MA in the UK.
peace.
He never seems to recount the story of when Abbe sensei left England. Or why. And what was said by him.
Perhaps 'he would have something more to offer this debate' if he actually took part in any of it, apart from the regular though infrequent insults.
As a student of Henry's I would disagree that he only causes trouble and I would actually like to hear the insults he has made as I don't believe he would do that off-hand. If you mean he says that other aikido styles are crap and that bothers you or you think he implies your style is crap then get on the mat and prove it isn't but don't stand back and say "oo he's saying we're rubbish what an insulting man he is". Come on down and try his style then comment on it.
But lets hear the story of why Abbe sensie left and what he said I'm interested to hear what you know about it. There seems to be very little on the web regarding sensei Abbe and it seems a shame considering all the work he put into the MA in the UK.
peace.
mj
12-02-2004, 05:45 AM
I have read, as far as I know, all of Sensei Ellis's writings and sayings on the net, his very strong opinions on what is and what is not aikido, his travels around the country and so on.
He is entitled to his opinions and I am entitled to disagree with his opinions.
I stand by remark that it is another side-swipe at other forms of aikido. which he does not like, to the point that he actually insults both the styles and the practitioners. Perhaps someone can point me to a link where he says something nice about them I may be compelled to change my opinion. (which I do regularly ;) )
He is entitled to his opinions and I am entitled to disagree with his opinions.
I stand by remark that it is another side-swipe at other forms of aikido. which he does not like, to the point that he actually insults both the styles and the practitioners. Perhaps someone can point me to a link where he says something nice about them I may be compelled to change my opinion. (which I do regularly ;) )
Michael Cardwell
12-02-2004, 06:09 AM
So whats up with this article? Why does Henry Ellis say that a lot of the Aikido taught today is like old man Aikido( if thats not an insult, what is it? ). And why in this story does he keep calling O-sensei an old man when Abbe sensei first met him, then after training with O-sensei for ten years and leaving, suddenly O-sensei gets old and frail and only teaches weak techniques.
I had always heard that O-sensei taught less and less physical classes as he got older, but never anything about him loosing his intensity. This article sounds kind of like a "My style is better" argument.
I had always heard that O-sensei taught less and less physical classes as he got older, but never anything about him loosing his intensity. This article sounds kind of like a "My style is better" argument.
Zato Ichi
12-02-2004, 06:54 AM
Here's the full article for those who want to read everything (about.com only published part 1).
http://www.ellisaikido.org/isaikmart.html
As for Ellis being insulting - well, he's entitled to his True-Aikido-Boy, Tougher-Than-Thou attitude, just as I am entitled to ignore him <shrug>. And the world goes on....
http://www.ellisaikido.org/isaikmart.html
As for Ellis being insulting - well, he's entitled to his True-Aikido-Boy, Tougher-Than-Thou attitude, just as I am entitled to ignore him <shrug>. And the world goes on....
deepsoup
12-02-2004, 08:12 AM
One story I do know is that an art I used to practise in the UK, Kyushindo, was founded by him.
Hi Rupert,
I'm curious, what was Kyushindo as a martial art? Was it a blend of Abbe's background arts, kind of what Yoseikan aiki-budo became to Mochizuki?
I've really only heard of Kyushindo as a system of philosophy - I spent some time as a lad training in a BJC dojo with an extraordinary judo instructor who was a student of Abbe's for a while. I still have my old BJC grading syllabus kicking around somewhere, there's a short blurb about Kyushindo in there. I can't really make head nor tail of it myself.
It certainly seems to be true that Abbe was rather eccentric, and he did have a reputation for grading people more or less on a whim, or at least for reasons of his own that weren't necessarily clear to anyone else. (Does that remind anyone of another eccentric martial artist with his own complex system of philosophy?) Another story I was told involved Abbe falling out with the dojo powers that be over an incident where he released birds into the dojo - again for reasons that weren't necessarily clear to anyone else.
I don't really have a problem with Mr Ellis' article, I think if you accept his somewhat abrasive writing style for what it is, he makes some good points as well as some less good ones. In a way it makes a refreshing change to read an essay by someone of Mr Ellis' seniority who isn't afraid to insult people.
This is somewhat like listening to certain classics of rock and roll and comparing it to the vast amount of drivel that exist today. Forgetting of course that the vast amount of drivel from back then was - well forgotten.
I personally am not too impressed by some of the directions Aikido has gone but I think it is incorrect to assume that all members of the early post-war Aikikai were as intense as say Chiba.
I think Peter is bang on here. Mr Ellis seems to assume that Chiba and Abbe were representative of the average standard at honbu at the time, but it hardly seems likely to me that either man could be described as "average", whichever dojo they happened to be training in.
Sean
x
Hi Rupert,
I'm curious, what was Kyushindo as a martial art? Was it a blend of Abbe's background arts, kind of what Yoseikan aiki-budo became to Mochizuki?
I've really only heard of Kyushindo as a system of philosophy - I spent some time as a lad training in a BJC dojo with an extraordinary judo instructor who was a student of Abbe's for a while. I still have my old BJC grading syllabus kicking around somewhere, there's a short blurb about Kyushindo in there. I can't really make head nor tail of it myself.
It certainly seems to be true that Abbe was rather eccentric, and he did have a reputation for grading people more or less on a whim, or at least for reasons of his own that weren't necessarily clear to anyone else. (Does that remind anyone of another eccentric martial artist with his own complex system of philosophy?) Another story I was told involved Abbe falling out with the dojo powers that be over an incident where he released birds into the dojo - again for reasons that weren't necessarily clear to anyone else.
I don't really have a problem with Mr Ellis' article, I think if you accept his somewhat abrasive writing style for what it is, he makes some good points as well as some less good ones. In a way it makes a refreshing change to read an essay by someone of Mr Ellis' seniority who isn't afraid to insult people.
This is somewhat like listening to certain classics of rock and roll and comparing it to the vast amount of drivel that exist today. Forgetting of course that the vast amount of drivel from back then was - well forgotten.
I personally am not too impressed by some of the directions Aikido has gone but I think it is incorrect to assume that all members of the early post-war Aikikai were as intense as say Chiba.
I think Peter is bang on here. Mr Ellis seems to assume that Chiba and Abbe were representative of the average standard at honbu at the time, but it hardly seems likely to me that either man could be described as "average", whichever dojo they happened to be training in.
Sean
x
ian
12-02-2004, 08:54 AM
I did train under Sensei Ellis for a very brief period - he seemed an OK chap to me. I also think he raises some well considered points that have also been raised by others. I have little doubt myself that many of the top uchideschi and Ueshiba himself were physically very tough (inc. e.g. shioda) and that many people in aikido now do not realise the importance of physical prowess and a determined mental attitude.
However I also believe that as he got older Ueshiba got better at 'blending'. You can't help getting older and weaker, and then you can't get away with the simple use of force and fitness. In my mind blending is much harder to achieve than strength or fitness. Will someone (esp. young people) who can't be bothered to keep themselves fit be likely to have the commitment to develop a good ability at blending? I would differentiate between those who are tough and those who are aggressive, though (which may have be the case for one of the uchideschi mentioned by Ellis).
In some respects I agree with Sensei Ellis (and I felt, even if there was a degree of opinion, it was informed opinion); however I'm pretty convinced that Ueshiba's blending abilties improved to compensate somewhat for his reduction in physical ability (compare video footage in his mid 40's to that when he is 60).
For this reason I believe aikido training should not omit any of these 3 aspects:
1. stationary training (mechanical advantage)
2. hard and fast attack (for timing and attitude)
3. slow attack with light contact (for blending)
There are those who teach aikido that believe it is not a self-defence; however for me self-defence is the absolute focus of aikido and without it the rest cannot be obtained.
However I also believe that as he got older Ueshiba got better at 'blending'. You can't help getting older and weaker, and then you can't get away with the simple use of force and fitness. In my mind blending is much harder to achieve than strength or fitness. Will someone (esp. young people) who can't be bothered to keep themselves fit be likely to have the commitment to develop a good ability at blending? I would differentiate between those who are tough and those who are aggressive, though (which may have be the case for one of the uchideschi mentioned by Ellis).
In some respects I agree with Sensei Ellis (and I felt, even if there was a degree of opinion, it was informed opinion); however I'm pretty convinced that Ueshiba's blending abilties improved to compensate somewhat for his reduction in physical ability (compare video footage in his mid 40's to that when he is 60).
For this reason I believe aikido training should not omit any of these 3 aspects:
1. stationary training (mechanical advantage)
2. hard and fast attack (for timing and attitude)
3. slow attack with light contact (for blending)
There are those who teach aikido that believe it is not a self-defence; however for me self-defence is the absolute focus of aikido and without it the rest cannot be obtained.
Dazzler
12-02-2004, 09:13 AM
When Tadashi Abe Sensei came to the UK in 1950s he brought with him a young french 3rd Dan - Pierre Chassang.
Harry Ellis makes a reference to Pierre on his website.
These days Pierre Chassang is the longest practicing aikidoka in Europe and for the past 25 years of so has been the technical inspiration of the National Aikido Federation.
As a result of the publicity Harry Ellis received over his 'Controversy' argument with the BAB, He ended up in contact with our organisation and some 14 months ago came and met Pierre at our summer school.
He gave a short presentation and then we practiced.
For me he was very correct in his insistence that the history of Aikido in UK should be preserved and not rewritten by those with more neck that a tall giraffe. The stories he gave us were excellent and fascinating.
Interestingly enough it seems that the BAB have finally accepted that they were mistaken in an award they made...but that is another story.
I agreed with this stance on this preservation of true history. Fair play to him for taking the BAB to task over this whole unfortunate incident.
In his demonstration he showed how his group has stuck rigidly to the aikido they first encountered when it entered the UK and insisted they would not change.
I did not agree with this.
I found it dangerous and only thanks to instinct and experience avoided lengthy injury through a nikkyo from the dark ages which worked fine when the partner gave you their body but which no-one would ever land on me for real. One of my friends was not so lucky.
My opinion is that aikido and the individual are linked. Both should mature with time. While Mr Ellis recognises that his body does this he fights time by attempting to practice as he did in his 20s.
While I believe that by definition Aikido is fixed. (Using the principles of the tao to merge the man and ki) I believe that methods of practice are constantly developing as is understanding.
To rigidly adhere to standards set by individual when aikido was in its infancy seems short sighted. No matter how high ones opinions of those individuals were.
But that is Mr Ellis choice.
I see an opinion in the articles and a strong one too. Martial arts training breeds strong character and hence strong opinions.
I just don't agree with it...but I'm not insulted.
Respectfully
D
Harry Ellis makes a reference to Pierre on his website.
These days Pierre Chassang is the longest practicing aikidoka in Europe and for the past 25 years of so has been the technical inspiration of the National Aikido Federation.
As a result of the publicity Harry Ellis received over his 'Controversy' argument with the BAB, He ended up in contact with our organisation and some 14 months ago came and met Pierre at our summer school.
He gave a short presentation and then we practiced.
For me he was very correct in his insistence that the history of Aikido in UK should be preserved and not rewritten by those with more neck that a tall giraffe. The stories he gave us were excellent and fascinating.
Interestingly enough it seems that the BAB have finally accepted that they were mistaken in an award they made...but that is another story.
I agreed with this stance on this preservation of true history. Fair play to him for taking the BAB to task over this whole unfortunate incident.
In his demonstration he showed how his group has stuck rigidly to the aikido they first encountered when it entered the UK and insisted they would not change.
I did not agree with this.
I found it dangerous and only thanks to instinct and experience avoided lengthy injury through a nikkyo from the dark ages which worked fine when the partner gave you their body but which no-one would ever land on me for real. One of my friends was not so lucky.
My opinion is that aikido and the individual are linked. Both should mature with time. While Mr Ellis recognises that his body does this he fights time by attempting to practice as he did in his 20s.
While I believe that by definition Aikido is fixed. (Using the principles of the tao to merge the man and ki) I believe that methods of practice are constantly developing as is understanding.
To rigidly adhere to standards set by individual when aikido was in its infancy seems short sighted. No matter how high ones opinions of those individuals were.
But that is Mr Ellis choice.
I see an opinion in the articles and a strong one too. Martial arts training breeds strong character and hence strong opinions.
I just don't agree with it...but I'm not insulted.
Respectfully
D
Beau
12-02-2004, 01:33 PM
IMHO,
To me it seems as if Aikido is broken into many different levels, much like sports are. Take top NFL players for instance. They have trained and developed their bodies for years, studied the game, played it at every level, and have the genetic ability to do so. Much like the NFL, I believe Aikido has its top tier players...Saito, Saotome, Shirata, Yamada, Chiba...the list goes on and on.....
However, football is fun. Many people enjoy playing it without all of the stuff that goes into becoming an NFL star. Many do not have the time, drive, or ability to ever make it. I think Aikido should have room for people that wish to play "back yard Aikido" whether it be for fitness, fun, or to simply gain confidence.
I do however agree that if I ever hope to even become one of Aikido's better than average martially skilled practitioners, I will have to continue to train and forge myself much in the same way as the top guys did. I don't believe that you can gain such a high level of ability by simply mimicing O'sensei in his older years. Its kinda like playing the guitar...If you learn one song by watching a virtuoso and play it over and over you can then play a difficult piece of music without ever developing the core techniques and understanding of the guitar...(even though its fun to show your friends) =0)
I think Ellis Sensei's frustation may come from the idea that it seems like many people want the end result without the work and time that is involved in getting there. Ahhh...I can't wait till they make Aikido Mastery in a bottle...just take two a day...=0)
Just my 1/50$
Beau Biller
FSU Aikido
To me it seems as if Aikido is broken into many different levels, much like sports are. Take top NFL players for instance. They have trained and developed their bodies for years, studied the game, played it at every level, and have the genetic ability to do so. Much like the NFL, I believe Aikido has its top tier players...Saito, Saotome, Shirata, Yamada, Chiba...the list goes on and on.....
However, football is fun. Many people enjoy playing it without all of the stuff that goes into becoming an NFL star. Many do not have the time, drive, or ability to ever make it. I think Aikido should have room for people that wish to play "back yard Aikido" whether it be for fitness, fun, or to simply gain confidence.
I do however agree that if I ever hope to even become one of Aikido's better than average martially skilled practitioners, I will have to continue to train and forge myself much in the same way as the top guys did. I don't believe that you can gain such a high level of ability by simply mimicing O'sensei in his older years. Its kinda like playing the guitar...If you learn one song by watching a virtuoso and play it over and over you can then play a difficult piece of music without ever developing the core techniques and understanding of the guitar...(even though its fun to show your friends) =0)
I think Ellis Sensei's frustation may come from the idea that it seems like many people want the end result without the work and time that is involved in getting there. Ahhh...I can't wait till they make Aikido Mastery in a bottle...just take two a day...=0)
Just my 1/50$
Beau Biller
FSU Aikido
philipsmith
12-02-2004, 02:24 PM
Everyone has their own personal take on Aikido and its history. It sometimes seems to me that (to misquote) we all "look through a glass darkly" i.e. we all have a selective take on everything.
Aikido is now different than it was when Mr. Ellis began, than it was when I began and my perspective and view of Aikido are different to Mr. Ellis'. Despite that we will be on the same mat next year.
Perhaps we need an impartial observer; that is a non-Aikidoka; to give us an answer.
BUT is it that important? As long as we practice sincerely and with an open mind Aikido should be a broad church allowing everyone in and not having a problem with individuals who do not share the "orthodox" view. If you like what Mr. Ellis does train with him, if you like what I do train with me and so on. However if you only train with me and never see Mr Ellis' Aikido how can you judge him?
AS a student of T. K. Chiba Shihan I know people who would not train with my teacher because of his reputation. I have also met Aikidoka who will not train with for example at a Shodokan dojo because "Its not real Aikido"
Basically you pay your money and make your choice (literally)
Philip Smith
Aikido is now different than it was when Mr. Ellis began, than it was when I began and my perspective and view of Aikido are different to Mr. Ellis'. Despite that we will be on the same mat next year.
Perhaps we need an impartial observer; that is a non-Aikidoka; to give us an answer.
BUT is it that important? As long as we practice sincerely and with an open mind Aikido should be a broad church allowing everyone in and not having a problem with individuals who do not share the "orthodox" view. If you like what Mr. Ellis does train with him, if you like what I do train with me and so on. However if you only train with me and never see Mr Ellis' Aikido how can you judge him?
AS a student of T. K. Chiba Shihan I know people who would not train with my teacher because of his reputation. I have also met Aikidoka who will not train with for example at a Shodokan dojo because "Its not real Aikido"
Basically you pay your money and make your choice (literally)
Philip Smith
Aristeia
12-02-2004, 03:03 PM
I quite enjoyed the article but can certainly see why it has gotten some people's backs up. It is true that in some quarters Aikido has become less martial and more artsy. No problem with that as long as people realise what the go is and aren't getting delusions of grandeur.
The old man/young man aikido discussion is interesting. Here's my take, I doubt that O'sensei lost spirit as he got older. I'm sure though that his technique had advanced to a point where he could get away with alot of flowing and blending an non martial looking movements that most people can't. And this is perhaps something to be concerned about. Similarly most (maybe all?) of O'sensei's senior and stand out students had advanced backgrounds in other arts. Oftentimes today that is not the case.
So my point is this. In trying to emulate O'sensei's later Aikido, often withtout a strong combat art in our own background, are we trying to reach the end point of his evolution without going through the same evolutionary process he did? Is it possible to do that, or should we be starting with harder more combat like training and look to advance to the level of aiki he acheived through that training? Or is it indeed possible to say Ueshiba did that development work for us and we can pick up more or less where he got to?
The old man/young man aikido discussion is interesting. Here's my take, I doubt that O'sensei lost spirit as he got older. I'm sure though that his technique had advanced to a point where he could get away with alot of flowing and blending an non martial looking movements that most people can't. And this is perhaps something to be concerned about. Similarly most (maybe all?) of O'sensei's senior and stand out students had advanced backgrounds in other arts. Oftentimes today that is not the case.
So my point is this. In trying to emulate O'sensei's later Aikido, often withtout a strong combat art in our own background, are we trying to reach the end point of his evolution without going through the same evolutionary process he did? Is it possible to do that, or should we be starting with harder more combat like training and look to advance to the level of aiki he acheived through that training? Or is it indeed possible to say Ueshiba did that development work for us and we can pick up more or less where he got to?
PeterR
12-02-2004, 07:04 PM
So whats up with this article? Why does Henry Ellis say that a lot of the Aikido taught today is like old man Aikido( if thats not an insult, what is it? ).
As a counter point I returned to Japan after a couple of years training in Canada some of which was in Aikikai dojos. At one point I did a tenkan and my Shihan yelled out "Old man Aikido". I gues Henry baby is not alone.
As a counter point I returned to Japan after a couple of years training in Canada some of which was in Aikikai dojos. At one point I did a tenkan and my Shihan yelled out "Old man Aikido". I gues Henry baby is not alone.
Qatana
12-02-2004, 08:20 PM
I just wish everybody who scoffs at "aikido-as-dance", as they call it, would take one hour and a half ballet class.
PeterR
12-02-2004, 08:40 PM
Actually Jo I use the dance analogy quite often to get my students to understand Budo spirit.
When a top-level ballet dancer does Giselle she must become a 16 year bundle of naivety.
When she dances Carmen she must become a 26 year old pack of trouble.
Same with Budo - you must mentally become what you are trying to achieve.
That little aside most ballet teachers (I'm married to one) at local clubs face the same problem as Aikido . Students just going through the motions. She has commented a number of times about the level of discipline shown by students of my teacher and how a greater proportion seem to get it.
Now the physical requirement of top-flight dancers is pretty high and that coupled with the almost anorexic nature of the women make the potential for injury horrible. I don't wish that life on anyone.
When a top-level ballet dancer does Giselle she must become a 16 year bundle of naivety.
When she dances Carmen she must become a 26 year old pack of trouble.
Same with Budo - you must mentally become what you are trying to achieve.
That little aside most ballet teachers (I'm married to one) at local clubs face the same problem as Aikido . Students just going through the motions. She has commented a number of times about the level of discipline shown by students of my teacher and how a greater proportion seem to get it.
Now the physical requirement of top-flight dancers is pretty high and that coupled with the almost anorexic nature of the women make the potential for injury horrible. I don't wish that life on anyone.
CNYMike
12-02-2004, 09:34 PM
I just wish everybody who scoffs at "aikido-as-dance", as they call it, would take one hour and a half ballet class.
When we lived in Larchmont, my mother was in a dancersize class. She loved to tell the story about how one weekend, all the husbands came. They went in big tough men, ready to show their wives how to workout. They left stiff and achey all over! :D
On the martial arts front, back in March I got back into Aikido after a 16 year "break," during which I took up things like Kali and Pentjak Silat Serak ("Serak") which are considered more combat oriented than Aikido.
Guess which class leaves me with the most aches and pains?
You guessed it, Aikido. :D Can't tell whether it's the "old man" or "young man" version; Sensei seems to be drawing on a bunch of sources. But there you are.
When we lived in Larchmont, my mother was in a dancersize class. She loved to tell the story about how one weekend, all the husbands came. They went in big tough men, ready to show their wives how to workout. They left stiff and achey all over! :D
On the martial arts front, back in March I got back into Aikido after a 16 year "break," during which I took up things like Kali and Pentjak Silat Serak ("Serak") which are considered more combat oriented than Aikido.
Guess which class leaves me with the most aches and pains?
You guessed it, Aikido. :D Can't tell whether it's the "old man" or "young man" version; Sensei seems to be drawing on a bunch of sources. But there you are.
CNYMike
12-02-2004, 10:01 PM
.... In trying to emulate O'sensei's later Aikido, often withtout a strong combat art in our own background, are we trying to reach the end point of his evolution without going through the same evolutionary process he did? Is it possible to do that, or should we be starting with harder more combat like training and look to advance to the level of aiki he acheived through that training? Or is it indeed possible to say Ueshiba did that development work for us and we can pick up more or less where he got to?
How long do you think that would take?
I just checked the biography of O Sensei in AIKIDO: THE WAY OF HARMONY by John Stevens under the direction of Shirata Rinjiro. The book describes the revlation or moment of enlightenment O Sensei had in 1925, when he was 42 years old. Even then before then, apparently, he viewed martial arts training as a spiritual endeavor; he criticized his old Aikijutsu sensei for teaching things "too combat oriented." And that was in the 1920s.
When did O Sensei finally call his art Aikido? The 1940s. When did "old man Aikido" begin to assert itself? Even years after that, after WW2. And O Sensei had been doing martial arts since his late teens.
So I think it's fair to say that O Sensei's evolution was something that happened over the course of a 60 or 70-odd year career in the martial arts. He wasn't a brawler who suddenly took a more siritual take on things in his 60s or 70s; he'd been heading that way his whole life. Trying to emulate his path might take about as long, would require you to study the same arts he did, and even then, you might not get the same result he did, because you're not him.
Oh, and there's a picture of O Sensei and Kisshomaru preparing to meditate under a waterfall on page 19 of BEST AIKIDO -- THE FUNDAMENTALS. O Sensei and his son are dressed only in shorts; the picture is from behind, but you can see his trademark white beard. Whilst O Sensei is no Ahhhhnold, he's got some pretty-well defined muscle groups. You don't see that in most photos of him because gis are slightly baggy. Either way, I'd hardly say he was frail in his "declining years."
Beyond that, I agree with the othe poster who says it doesn't matter to much. If you're really worried about Aikido's combat ability and/or want to acquaint yourself with other ranges of combat, crosstrain in something else. Otherwise, don't worry about it. Got to train in friendship.
How long do you think that would take?
I just checked the biography of O Sensei in AIKIDO: THE WAY OF HARMONY by John Stevens under the direction of Shirata Rinjiro. The book describes the revlation or moment of enlightenment O Sensei had in 1925, when he was 42 years old. Even then before then, apparently, he viewed martial arts training as a spiritual endeavor; he criticized his old Aikijutsu sensei for teaching things "too combat oriented." And that was in the 1920s.
When did O Sensei finally call his art Aikido? The 1940s. When did "old man Aikido" begin to assert itself? Even years after that, after WW2. And O Sensei had been doing martial arts since his late teens.
So I think it's fair to say that O Sensei's evolution was something that happened over the course of a 60 or 70-odd year career in the martial arts. He wasn't a brawler who suddenly took a more siritual take on things in his 60s or 70s; he'd been heading that way his whole life. Trying to emulate his path might take about as long, would require you to study the same arts he did, and even then, you might not get the same result he did, because you're not him.
Oh, and there's a picture of O Sensei and Kisshomaru preparing to meditate under a waterfall on page 19 of BEST AIKIDO -- THE FUNDAMENTALS. O Sensei and his son are dressed only in shorts; the picture is from behind, but you can see his trademark white beard. Whilst O Sensei is no Ahhhhnold, he's got some pretty-well defined muscle groups. You don't see that in most photos of him because gis are slightly baggy. Either way, I'd hardly say he was frail in his "declining years."
Beyond that, I agree with the othe poster who says it doesn't matter to much. If you're really worried about Aikido's combat ability and/or want to acquaint yourself with other ranges of combat, crosstrain in something else. Otherwise, don't worry about it. Got to train in friendship.
Aristeia
12-02-2004, 10:26 PM
My point is not that we should try and live O'sensei's life in order to become him. That would be silly. Merely asking whether we place too much emphasis on Aikido being what O'sensei was doing, and how he was doing it in his later years when there are a few steps we have to go through to get there first.
PeterR
12-02-2004, 10:39 PM
Agree completely.
Ueshiba M.'s Aikido was the culmination of his life. Even comprehending that Aikido requires a parallel journey, doing it definitely does.
My point is not that we should try and live O'sensei's life in order to become him. That would be silly. Merely asking whether we place too much emphasis on Aikido being what O'sensei was doing, and how he was doing it in his later years when there are a few steps we have to go through to get there first.
Ueshiba M.'s Aikido was the culmination of his life. Even comprehending that Aikido requires a parallel journey, doing it definitely does.
My point is not that we should try and live O'sensei's life in order to become him. That would be silly. Merely asking whether we place too much emphasis on Aikido being what O'sensei was doing, and how he was doing it in his later years when there are a few steps we have to go through to get there first.
Qatana
12-02-2004, 11:23 PM
Peter, I was commenting on the last part of the article, not anything you said. I'm just not a very good aiki-fruitie not to share my irritation! He probably meant partner dancing and while I admit it is jvery much like tango with throws, it still ain't dancing!
PeterR
12-02-2004, 11:38 PM
Tango is pretty tough at high levels too. The poster probably meant dance as understood in the vernacular which refers to a series of moves with no particular intent. I guess dance is a lot like Aikido in this respect also - those looking in from the outside often have no idea.
I also seem to remember some of the dancers at the London School of Contemporary Dance talking in a similar fashion about many of the Spring and Summer seminar students. Pretty scathing.
I also seem to remember some of the dancers at the London School of Contemporary Dance talking in a similar fashion about many of the Spring and Summer seminar students. Pretty scathing.
mj
12-03-2004, 05:19 AM
Those who are true traditional Aikidoists will take no offence at this article, yet the dancers will probably be offended. I care little for their feelings...
Is it just me or does 'true traditional aikido' mean 'my aikido'? ;)
Reading the word 'dancer' in context ensures that we can see it is certainly meant to be an insult. Mr Ellis certainly is a good advocate for his own interpretation of Aikido. As an advocate for Aikido per se, there is no doubt that he leaves a lot to be desired.
Perhaps it would be better if he were to limit his observations to his own Aikido, thus restraining his apparent underlying aggression and antipathy towards people who I am sure, could care less.
As I said earlier, if proponents of Mr Ellis could provide a link where he says some nice things it would ameliorate certainly my own opinion of him which basically seems to be an angry old man who was once an angry young man. I am sure they could care less though ;)
Tis the season to be jolly tra la la la la....la la la la (Jun: no Santa smiley?)
Is it just me or does 'true traditional aikido' mean 'my aikido'? ;)
Reading the word 'dancer' in context ensures that we can see it is certainly meant to be an insult. Mr Ellis certainly is a good advocate for his own interpretation of Aikido. As an advocate for Aikido per se, there is no doubt that he leaves a lot to be desired.
Perhaps it would be better if he were to limit his observations to his own Aikido, thus restraining his apparent underlying aggression and antipathy towards people who I am sure, could care less.
As I said earlier, if proponents of Mr Ellis could provide a link where he says some nice things it would ameliorate certainly my own opinion of him which basically seems to be an angry old man who was once an angry young man. I am sure they could care less though ;)
Tis the season to be jolly tra la la la la....la la la la (Jun: no Santa smiley?)
Ecosamurai
12-03-2004, 05:38 AM
And why/how did Abbe sensei leave?
FWIW people have been asking how and why Abbe Sensei left the UK, I think I can answer that, though its more important to know that he left and came back and spent the remainder of his life here.
He introduced Aikido to the UK in 1955, in that time he was the head Budo teacher in Britain and also an important figure in the rest of Europe. By the 1960's he had appointed several people as the chief instructors of various different budo in the UK, Tomio Otani was in charge of Kendo I believe, Tomio's father Masutaro Otani and brothers were for Judo, I think possibly Harada Sensei may have been karate, and AFAIK Ken Williams was the chief Aikido instructor.
Sometime in 1964 Abbe returned to Japan for the olympics held in Tokyo that year. Whilst there he visited O Sensei to pay his respects. He also asked O Sensei to send a young Aikidoka to oversee the teaching of Aikido in the UK ( he did this without the knowledge of anyone in the UK), this was what ended up sending Chiba Sensei to the UK in 1966.
When Abbe returned things had gone a bit sour, Masutaro Otani (who Abbe regarded as every bit his equal as far as Judo was concerned) and he had some disagreements as to how Judo should be run in the UK, this lead to a split in the BJC.
Also, the appearence of Chiba Sensei put a few noses out of joint in the more senior British Aikidoka who had been in charge of running things, this also lead to a split, and incidentally one of the consequences of this was Ken Williams later joining Tohei Sensei's organisation after Tohei left the Aikikai.
Thats how Aikido first became fractured in the UK, a few of the original students of Abbe are still around, Henry Ellis being one of them.
AFAIK Abbe sensei spent the last part of his life in the UK, by the time he was quite old and frail he had apparently lost one or two marbles, and it has been alleged that a few Judo teachers in the UK got some of their Dan certificates signed over breakfast by a man who didn't know what he was signing.
Mike Haft
PS - If anything above is amiss and anyone actually involved with any of the people mentioned can correct me please feel free to do so. The above is what I've gleaned from various sources over the years and much may be anecdotal.
FWIW people have been asking how and why Abbe Sensei left the UK, I think I can answer that, though its more important to know that he left and came back and spent the remainder of his life here.
He introduced Aikido to the UK in 1955, in that time he was the head Budo teacher in Britain and also an important figure in the rest of Europe. By the 1960's he had appointed several people as the chief instructors of various different budo in the UK, Tomio Otani was in charge of Kendo I believe, Tomio's father Masutaro Otani and brothers were for Judo, I think possibly Harada Sensei may have been karate, and AFAIK Ken Williams was the chief Aikido instructor.
Sometime in 1964 Abbe returned to Japan for the olympics held in Tokyo that year. Whilst there he visited O Sensei to pay his respects. He also asked O Sensei to send a young Aikidoka to oversee the teaching of Aikido in the UK ( he did this without the knowledge of anyone in the UK), this was what ended up sending Chiba Sensei to the UK in 1966.
When Abbe returned things had gone a bit sour, Masutaro Otani (who Abbe regarded as every bit his equal as far as Judo was concerned) and he had some disagreements as to how Judo should be run in the UK, this lead to a split in the BJC.
Also, the appearence of Chiba Sensei put a few noses out of joint in the more senior British Aikidoka who had been in charge of running things, this also lead to a split, and incidentally one of the consequences of this was Ken Williams later joining Tohei Sensei's organisation after Tohei left the Aikikai.
Thats how Aikido first became fractured in the UK, a few of the original students of Abbe are still around, Henry Ellis being one of them.
AFAIK Abbe sensei spent the last part of his life in the UK, by the time he was quite old and frail he had apparently lost one or two marbles, and it has been alleged that a few Judo teachers in the UK got some of their Dan certificates signed over breakfast by a man who didn't know what he was signing.
Mike Haft
PS - If anything above is amiss and anyone actually involved with any of the people mentioned can correct me please feel free to do so. The above is what I've gleaned from various sources over the years and much may be anecdotal.
Peter Goldsbury
12-03-2004, 07:14 AM
Interesting arcticle.
It doesn't really seem to have any bearing on whether Aikido is or is not a martial art, but is a story of how one man started Aikido. I enjoyed it. I especially liked the thing with the knife on page 2 :)
--Michael
Hello Michael,
I have a different take on the knife story. Chiba Sensei came to the UK for a summer school in Bangor, Wales, and I took him to London to have his application to live in the US processed by the US Embassy. I don't recall the date exactly, but I am pretty sure it was in 1979. We parked the car in Grosvenor Square and we got out. Suddenly Sensei remembered something and asked to go back to the car. As I opened the door, he bent down and sheepishly removed the knife from his shoe. I was rather stunned and we later had a serious conversation about why shihans of a supposedly defensive martial art needed to carry concealed weapons. I can assure you that the idea of offering the knife to the prospective attacker for a 'good clean fight, fought according to all the bushido virtues' did not figure at all in the conversation.
Best regards,
It doesn't really seem to have any bearing on whether Aikido is or is not a martial art, but is a story of how one man started Aikido. I enjoyed it. I especially liked the thing with the knife on page 2 :)
--Michael
Hello Michael,
I have a different take on the knife story. Chiba Sensei came to the UK for a summer school in Bangor, Wales, and I took him to London to have his application to live in the US processed by the US Embassy. I don't recall the date exactly, but I am pretty sure it was in 1979. We parked the car in Grosvenor Square and we got out. Suddenly Sensei remembered something and asked to go back to the car. As I opened the door, he bent down and sheepishly removed the knife from his shoe. I was rather stunned and we later had a serious conversation about why shihans of a supposedly defensive martial art needed to carry concealed weapons. I can assure you that the idea of offering the knife to the prospective attacker for a 'good clean fight, fought according to all the bushido virtues' did not figure at all in the conversation.
Best regards,
CNYMike
12-03-2004, 12:34 PM
My point is not that we should try and live O'sensei's life in order to become him. That would be silly. Merely asking whether we place too much emphasis on Aikido being what O'sensei was doing, and how he was doing it in his later years when there are a few steps we have to go through to get there first.
I think I see what you're saying.
Well, depending on what 'form' of Aikido is available in your area, doing those "few steps" might involve doing something else, but then you're getting into cross-training again. Even then, every martial art has something to offer; even "old man Aikido" may have something for your bag of tricks, you just have to let it find you. Which may be why my Kali instructor all but shoved me in the dojo door when I told him I was getting back into Aikido.
I think I see what you're saying.
Well, depending on what 'form' of Aikido is available in your area, doing those "few steps" might involve doing something else, but then you're getting into cross-training again. Even then, every martial art has something to offer; even "old man Aikido" may have something for your bag of tricks, you just have to let it find you. Which may be why my Kali instructor all but shoved me in the dojo door when I told him I was getting back into Aikido.
bkedelen
12-03-2004, 02:04 PM
I think the beauty of Aikido is that it lets you craft yourself into anything you want (and a few things you probably did not expect). If you hope to become a badass fighter, that way is certainly open to you. If you wish to become a pensive humanist, that is surely available as well. It seems that in this article Ellis is criticizing other humans not for practicing Aikido wrong (if you can imagine a way to do that), but instead for having different motives them his own. I will stop there.
David Yap
12-03-2004, 09:34 PM
I think the beauty of Aikido is that it lets you craft yourself into anything you want (and a few things you probably did not expect). If you hope to become a badass fighter, that way is certainly open to you. If you wish to become a pensive humanist, that is surely available as well. It seems that in this article Ellis is criticizing other humans not for practicing Aikido wrong (if you can imagine a way to do that), but instead for having different motives them his own. I will stop there.
Hi Ben,
IMHO, you should read the article again in a broad prospective. I agree with you that some students and even instructors practice aikido with a "badass fighter" attitude. But real bad bad ass fighters will not even touch aikido - not in its current state. Coming from other MA disciplines before I started aikido, I can be a badass fighter if I wanted to. My purpose of doing aikido is to drop that "badass fighter" image but I do not agree or intend aikido be branded/imaged a "fake" martial art.
O sensei, his son and many many of the top shihan (past & present) had said that Aikido is first and foremost a martial art - budo - and it should taught that way first and foremost.
I don't know Mr. Henry Ellis personally, I don't question his motives. Whatever his motives, we all have a limited time on this Earth - my motive (while still alive) is that aikido be passed on to future generations intact with all the martial elements, culture and philosophy.
That's my 2 sen.
Regards
David Y
PS You honestly believe that aikido is dance, then you should be leading (the partner) all the time despite whether he/she (the uke) starts on his/her right foot or left foot and from whether directions. At certain dojo I visited, I always tried to keep my laughter inside whenever, an instructor stops and tells his student, "You are attacking me wrongly". What would I do in my position? Just take the attack as it is and if there is a need to explain the "wrong" attack, explain it later. Most time, they can't even tell the difference between an attack in fit of anger and or an attack in a sparring sense - that's why I tried not LOL. Understanding budo makes the difference.
Hi Ben,
IMHO, you should read the article again in a broad prospective. I agree with you that some students and even instructors practice aikido with a "badass fighter" attitude. But real bad bad ass fighters will not even touch aikido - not in its current state. Coming from other MA disciplines before I started aikido, I can be a badass fighter if I wanted to. My purpose of doing aikido is to drop that "badass fighter" image but I do not agree or intend aikido be branded/imaged a "fake" martial art.
O sensei, his son and many many of the top shihan (past & present) had said that Aikido is first and foremost a martial art - budo - and it should taught that way first and foremost.
I don't know Mr. Henry Ellis personally, I don't question his motives. Whatever his motives, we all have a limited time on this Earth - my motive (while still alive) is that aikido be passed on to future generations intact with all the martial elements, culture and philosophy.
That's my 2 sen.
Regards
David Y
PS You honestly believe that aikido is dance, then you should be leading (the partner) all the time despite whether he/she (the uke) starts on his/her right foot or left foot and from whether directions. At certain dojo I visited, I always tried to keep my laughter inside whenever, an instructor stops and tells his student, "You are attacking me wrongly". What would I do in my position? Just take the attack as it is and if there is a need to explain the "wrong" attack, explain it later. Most time, they can't even tell the difference between an attack in fit of anger and or an attack in a sparring sense - that's why I tried not LOL. Understanding budo makes the difference.
maikerus
12-03-2004, 11:32 PM
Hello Michael,
I have a different take on the knife story. Chiba Sensei came to the UK for a summer school in Bangor, Wales, and I took him to London to have his application to live in the US processed by the US Embassy. I don't recall the date exactly, but I am pretty sure it was in 1979. We parked the car in Grosvenor Square and we got out. Suddenly Sensei remembered something and asked to go back to the car. As I opened the door, he bent down and sheepishly removed the knife from his shoe. I was rather stunned and we later had a serious conversation about why shihans of a supposedly defensive martial art needed to carry concealed weapons. I can assure you that the idea of offering the knife to the prospective attacker for a 'good clean fight, fought according to all the bushido virtues' did not figure at all in the conversation.
Best regards,
Hi Peter,
Thanks for clearing that up. When I read the arcticle the first time I just took the story as one of those exagerations that turn into a piece of folklore or an urban myth. It just didn't seem smart.
I almost commented the first time about how if that was actually said, I would have thought he would have been joking (and I would have laughed) in order to downplay his having the knife. But since I don't know the parties involved I didn't want to put words into their mouths.
Thanks again for the insight.
cheers,
--Michael
I have a different take on the knife story. Chiba Sensei came to the UK for a summer school in Bangor, Wales, and I took him to London to have his application to live in the US processed by the US Embassy. I don't recall the date exactly, but I am pretty sure it was in 1979. We parked the car in Grosvenor Square and we got out. Suddenly Sensei remembered something and asked to go back to the car. As I opened the door, he bent down and sheepishly removed the knife from his shoe. I was rather stunned and we later had a serious conversation about why shihans of a supposedly defensive martial art needed to carry concealed weapons. I can assure you that the idea of offering the knife to the prospective attacker for a 'good clean fight, fought according to all the bushido virtues' did not figure at all in the conversation.
Best regards,
Hi Peter,
Thanks for clearing that up. When I read the arcticle the first time I just took the story as one of those exagerations that turn into a piece of folklore or an urban myth. It just didn't seem smart.
I almost commented the first time about how if that was actually said, I would have thought he would have been joking (and I would have laughed) in order to downplay his having the knife. But since I don't know the parties involved I didn't want to put words into their mouths.
Thanks again for the insight.
cheers,
--Michael
bkedelen
12-04-2004, 12:28 AM
We could discuss how teacher A is teaching a martial art, while teacher B is teaching a dance, while teacher C is teaching a spiritual practice for as long as there are at least three living instructors. The measure of a martial artist has nothing to do with the hanmi he prefers his attacker to assume, rather it is how he touches the lives of the people around him. No amount of preparation will stop a 165 grain .40S&W Remington Golden Saber, so now would be the time to stop thinking that anyone can defend themselves anywhere, anytime, ever again. The only reason anyone is alive right now is because someone else is letting them live. Aikido cannot be for protecting yourself, because that is a feat that cannot be achieved. This is not an easy fact to digest, but once we get over imagining that we are the masters of our own destiny, we can get on with making the world a better place.
kironin
12-04-2004, 01:19 AM
The article just seemed like marketing to me for the school. And following the link provided to the school's website where there are a lot of videoclips to watch, the article matters even less to me. If the goal is an effective martial art, well, I just don't see it from these videos.
ruthmc
12-04-2004, 03:59 AM
It seems that in this article Ellis is criticizing other humans not for practicing Aikido wrong (if you can imagine a way to do that), but instead for having different motives them his own.
:) That's a very polite way of putting it!
I've seen how Mr Ellis demonstrates his 'Aikido' and it's very rough and uncontrolled. Your practice really does reflect your personality and beliefs.
What's sad is that he instills his confrontational attitude into his students, and openly says that his students could wipe the floor with anybody else's students.. :(
I feel very sorry for those who have lost the way of Aikido and just want to fight.
Ruth
:) That's a very polite way of putting it!
I've seen how Mr Ellis demonstrates his 'Aikido' and it's very rough and uncontrolled. Your practice really does reflect your personality and beliefs.
What's sad is that he instills his confrontational attitude into his students, and openly says that his students could wipe the floor with anybody else's students.. :(
I feel very sorry for those who have lost the way of Aikido and just want to fight.
Ruth
Peter Goldsbury
12-04-2004, 05:08 AM
Hi Peter,
Thanks for clearing that up. When I read the arcticle the first time I just took the story as one of those exagerations that turn into a piece of folklore or an urban myth. It just didn't seem smart.
I almost commented the first time about how if that was actually said, I would have thought he would have been joking (and I would have laughed) in order to downplay his having the knife. But since I don't know the parties involved I didn't want to put words into their mouths.
Thanks again for the insight.
cheers,
--Michael
Hello Michael,
Yes, the crucial factor on that occasion was that the US Embassy had metal detectors at the entrance. Sensei did not ask to return to the car till he saw them. He explained the knife as an essential part of the modern samurai's wardrobe. Saito Sensei was an expert with the shuriken, which are also very easy to conceal. But I doubt whether he regularly carried one concealed in his shoe.
Anyway, I was stunned by the fact that my main aikido sensei regularly carried an offensive weapon (under UK law) and saw no contradiction with the normal emphasis laid on the totally defensive nature of aikido.
Best regards,
Thanks for clearing that up. When I read the arcticle the first time I just took the story as one of those exagerations that turn into a piece of folklore or an urban myth. It just didn't seem smart.
I almost commented the first time about how if that was actually said, I would have thought he would have been joking (and I would have laughed) in order to downplay his having the knife. But since I don't know the parties involved I didn't want to put words into their mouths.
Thanks again for the insight.
cheers,
--Michael
Hello Michael,
Yes, the crucial factor on that occasion was that the US Embassy had metal detectors at the entrance. Sensei did not ask to return to the car till he saw them. He explained the knife as an essential part of the modern samurai's wardrobe. Saito Sensei was an expert with the shuriken, which are also very easy to conceal. But I doubt whether he regularly carried one concealed in his shoe.
Anyway, I was stunned by the fact that my main aikido sensei regularly carried an offensive weapon (under UK law) and saw no contradiction with the normal emphasis laid on the totally defensive nature of aikido.
Best regards,
Charles Hill
12-04-2004, 10:50 PM
we later had a serious conversation about why shihans of a supposedly defensive martial art needed to carry concealed weapons
Prof. Goldsbury,
Could you give any details of that conversation?
Thanks
Charles Hill
Prof. Goldsbury,
Could you give any details of that conversation?
Thanks
Charles Hill
Peter Goldsbury
12-05-2004, 08:48 AM
Prof. Goldsbury,
Could you give any details of that conversation?
Thanks
Charles Hill
Hello Charles,
No. Not in a public forum. The conversation was part of a much longer conversation relating to Chiba Sensei's own personal approach to aikido training. I mentioned it in this thread as a response to the suggestion that Sensei carried a knife to offer his opponents the chance to have a clean fight, according to western ideas of fair play.
Best regards,
Could you give any details of that conversation?
Thanks
Charles Hill
Hello Charles,
No. Not in a public forum. The conversation was part of a much longer conversation relating to Chiba Sensei's own personal approach to aikido training. I mentioned it in this thread as a response to the suggestion that Sensei carried a knife to offer his opponents the chance to have a clean fight, according to western ideas of fair play.
Best regards,
Rupert Atkinson
12-05-2004, 11:00 PM
Hi Rupert,
I'm curious, what was Kyushindo as a martial art?
I've really only heard of Kyushindo as a system of philosophy - I spent some time as a lad training in a BJC dojo with an extraordinary judo instructor who was a student of Abbe's for a while. Sean
x
In 'our' Kyushindo we learned Aikido, Judo, and a little Karate and Kendo. I say 'our' because other places seem to do whatever they do based on what their teacher can do - logical really, I suppose. One friend of mine, for example, did Kyushin Karate (elsewhere). Another guy I know did Kyushin Judo (elsewhere) - I tried it a few times - it looked pretty much the same as standard Judo but with a far greater emphasis on learning good technique and katas, yes, Judo katas.
In 'our' Kyushindo Judo, we learned things like kime-no-kata, goshi-jutsu-no-kata, nage-no-kata - and we had far less emhasis on fighting then the pure Judo Kyushindo school did. We also did all the standard Aikido techniques and used terminology such as first form (ai-hanmi) / second form (gyaky-hanmi) for the attacks. Back then - mid 80s, several schools still used that system (Institute of Aikido, for example - well - my teacher did). The aim of Kyushindo, as we were often told, was to put it all together (our total knowledge) to make practical self-defence, which at the time was called Atemi-jutsu. So, for us, Judo+Aikido+Karate=Self Defence. The style was quite soft and I like to think I learned a lot of useful stuff/ideas there. There were lots of nice Jujutsu style nasty techniques - how to smash the enemy efficeitnly etc. Mixing stuff together was fun - To start, think: Ai-hanmi O-goshi, and so on. Philosophy ? We had concepts such as Banbutsu Ryuten, dealt with tecnhiques using yin-yang ideas, and also learned shiatsu.
PS Say "Hello" to Scott :)
I'm curious, what was Kyushindo as a martial art?
I've really only heard of Kyushindo as a system of philosophy - I spent some time as a lad training in a BJC dojo with an extraordinary judo instructor who was a student of Abbe's for a while. Sean
x
In 'our' Kyushindo we learned Aikido, Judo, and a little Karate and Kendo. I say 'our' because other places seem to do whatever they do based on what their teacher can do - logical really, I suppose. One friend of mine, for example, did Kyushin Karate (elsewhere). Another guy I know did Kyushin Judo (elsewhere) - I tried it a few times - it looked pretty much the same as standard Judo but with a far greater emphasis on learning good technique and katas, yes, Judo katas.
In 'our' Kyushindo Judo, we learned things like kime-no-kata, goshi-jutsu-no-kata, nage-no-kata - and we had far less emhasis on fighting then the pure Judo Kyushindo school did. We also did all the standard Aikido techniques and used terminology such as first form (ai-hanmi) / second form (gyaky-hanmi) for the attacks. Back then - mid 80s, several schools still used that system (Institute of Aikido, for example - well - my teacher did). The aim of Kyushindo, as we were often told, was to put it all together (our total knowledge) to make practical self-defence, which at the time was called Atemi-jutsu. So, for us, Judo+Aikido+Karate=Self Defence. The style was quite soft and I like to think I learned a lot of useful stuff/ideas there. There were lots of nice Jujutsu style nasty techniques - how to smash the enemy efficeitnly etc. Mixing stuff together was fun - To start, think: Ai-hanmi O-goshi, and so on. Philosophy ? We had concepts such as Banbutsu Ryuten, dealt with tecnhiques using yin-yang ideas, and also learned shiatsu.
PS Say "Hello" to Scott :)
deepsoup
12-07-2004, 08:17 PM
Hi Rupert,
Interesting stuff. We spent quite a lot of time working on kata at the (pure) judo class I was at, but then the instructor was probably a bit keener on kata than most of his peers.
I'd love a chance to go back and look at them again, in the light of a few years aikido training. (Especially the kime no kata and the goshin jutsu no kata, I think bits of them that I vaguely remember being totally baffled by at the time would make a lot more sense now.)
Not much chance of doing that though, sadly the judo instructor I had back in those days is no longer with us, and judo teachers who can teach that stuff are few and far between indeed around here.
I'll pass on your regards to Scott.
Cheers.
Sean
x
Interesting stuff. We spent quite a lot of time working on kata at the (pure) judo class I was at, but then the instructor was probably a bit keener on kata than most of his peers.
I'd love a chance to go back and look at them again, in the light of a few years aikido training. (Especially the kime no kata and the goshin jutsu no kata, I think bits of them that I vaguely remember being totally baffled by at the time would make a lot more sense now.)
Not much chance of doing that though, sadly the judo instructor I had back in those days is no longer with us, and judo teachers who can teach that stuff are few and far between indeed around here.
I'll pass on your regards to Scott.
Cheers.
Sean
x
NickRoss101
12-07-2004, 08:52 PM
Hello, Jun.
To the extent of what I can see in the article, the people who are viewing Aikido show a strong connotation of aving never taken a single lesson of Aikido. There are a variety of practical factors in the techiques and movements that reflect off of the deep and profound philosophy deeply rooted in Aikido. Namely, what my sensei tells me that the ultimate lesson in Aikido is that you cannot force your way. if Aikido does not seem to be practical to you, or not able to be announced as a "martial" art, then there might be some confusion in connecting philosophy and technique. Meaning: You may not be noticing the beauty behind not fighting. Lead the attack! Don't fight it. Be at harmony with your assailant(s), not trying to understand HOW to be at harmony with them.
Aikido is no mere "art" or "dance." It is an ingenious creation with tremendous use in its techniques and sphericity. To put them to proper use, one must not TRY to understand how to use Aikido: One must simply do. Water doesn't think or calculate how to flow around the rocks in a river, it simply flows and travels around them. Try to imitate the water. O'sensei accomplished that... wouldn't he be proud to see us do the same?
-Nick
To the extent of what I can see in the article, the people who are viewing Aikido show a strong connotation of aving never taken a single lesson of Aikido. There are a variety of practical factors in the techiques and movements that reflect off of the deep and profound philosophy deeply rooted in Aikido. Namely, what my sensei tells me that the ultimate lesson in Aikido is that you cannot force your way. if Aikido does not seem to be practical to you, or not able to be announced as a "martial" art, then there might be some confusion in connecting philosophy and technique. Meaning: You may not be noticing the beauty behind not fighting. Lead the attack! Don't fight it. Be at harmony with your assailant(s), not trying to understand HOW to be at harmony with them.
Aikido is no mere "art" or "dance." It is an ingenious creation with tremendous use in its techniques and sphericity. To put them to proper use, one must not TRY to understand how to use Aikido: One must simply do. Water doesn't think or calculate how to flow around the rocks in a river, it simply flows and travels around them. Try to imitate the water. O'sensei accomplished that... wouldn't he be proud to see us do the same?
-Nick
PeterR
12-07-2004, 08:59 PM
Not a bad first post Nick - welcome.
Just to point out that the guy who wrote the article has been practicing Aikido for quite a while. His chosen point of reference are certain Aikido Shihans that approach their art with similar views to his own.
To the extent of what I can see in the article, the people who are viewing Aikido show a strong connotation of aving never taken a single lesson of Aikido.
Cheers
Just to point out that the guy who wrote the article has been practicing Aikido for quite a while. His chosen point of reference are certain Aikido Shihans that approach their art with similar views to his own.
To the extent of what I can see in the article, the people who are viewing Aikido show a strong connotation of aving never taken a single lesson of Aikido.
Cheers
Dan Gould
12-08-2004, 12:11 PM
I don't consider myself a dancer. I find it amusing that despite doing aikido for 50 years, he calls practioners "aikidoists." Surely the term is aikidoka? If I'm wrong, I'm wrong, but if I'm right, I think that undermines his extensive knowledge in the field.
So, he tells a couple of stories then says "Oh, btw, most people today can't fight for crap"? I don't think aikido was ever about really kicking ass, surely? Ueshiba was a spirutual and peace loving man who formed the art to defend oneself and grow spiritually, while stopping an attack without permanent damage? I'm going by what I've read in the past, obviously I never knew the bloke :p
Where exactly does his "debate" come into play? Aikido to my mind is a martial art, in that it's an art based on dealing with an attacker, but it's done in a way that isn't intended to really damage the opponent, right? *shakes head* I've lost the thread again, sorry.
So, he tells a couple of stories then says "Oh, btw, most people today can't fight for crap"? I don't think aikido was ever about really kicking ass, surely? Ueshiba was a spirutual and peace loving man who formed the art to defend oneself and grow spiritually, while stopping an attack without permanent damage? I'm going by what I've read in the past, obviously I never knew the bloke :p
Where exactly does his "debate" come into play? Aikido to my mind is a martial art, in that it's an art based on dealing with an attacker, but it's done in a way that isn't intended to really damage the opponent, right? *shakes head* I've lost the thread again, sorry.
Rocky Izumi
12-08-2004, 12:31 PM
I don't consider myself a dancer. I find it amusing that despite doing aikido for 50 years, he calls practioners "aikidoists." Surely the term is aikidoka? If I'm wrong, I'm wrong, but if I'm right, I think that undermines his extensive knowledge in the field.
The term Aikidoka is usually reserved for professional Aikido practitioners.
Rock
The term Aikidoka is usually reserved for professional Aikido practitioners.
Rock
kironin
12-08-2004, 01:52 PM
Not a bad first post Nick - welcome.
Just to point out that the guy who wrote the article has been practicing Aikido for quite a while. His chosen point of reference are certain Aikido Shihans that approach their art with similar views to his own.
Cheers
still, from the mouth of babes ...
Just to point out that the guy who wrote the article has been practicing Aikido for quite a while. His chosen point of reference are certain Aikido Shihans that approach their art with similar views to his own.
Cheers
still, from the mouth of babes ...
maikerus
12-08-2004, 11:30 PM
The term Aikidoka is usually reserved for professional Aikido practitioners.
Rock
Really, I hadn't heard that. In fact the only term I had ever heard until really recently - like about 2 minutes ago - for those that study Aikido was Aikidoka.
Not doubting you Rock, just wondering if others define Aikidoka the same way and use Aikidoist for us amateurs, or if its lost that meaning along the way...anyone?
--Michael
Rock
Really, I hadn't heard that. In fact the only term I had ever heard until really recently - like about 2 minutes ago - for those that study Aikido was Aikidoka.
Not doubting you Rock, just wondering if others define Aikidoka the same way and use Aikidoist for us amateurs, or if its lost that meaning along the way...anyone?
--Michael
PeterR
12-08-2004, 11:41 PM
Really, I hadn't heard that. In fact the only term I had ever heard until really recently - like about 2 minutes ago - for those that study Aikido was Aikidoka.
Not doubting you Rock, just wondering if others define Aikidoka the same way and use Aikidois
Rock is right and this whole Aikidoist/Aikidoka is one of my pet peeves.
In Japan the suffix Ka denotes profession. In the Judo world people start being called Judoka after they have reached a certain rank (6th Dan?) and at the very least in Aikido it should apply to a seriously commited amateur of some rank.
I am very carefull to say that I do Aikido or even I play Aikido rather than refer to myself as an Aikidoka.
Michael - I would consider you an Aikidoka but not your students.
There was quite an involved thread on this issue but I can't seem to find it.
Not doubting you Rock, just wondering if others define Aikidoka the same way and use Aikidois
Rock is right and this whole Aikidoist/Aikidoka is one of my pet peeves.
In Japan the suffix Ka denotes profession. In the Judo world people start being called Judoka after they have reached a certain rank (6th Dan?) and at the very least in Aikido it should apply to a seriously commited amateur of some rank.
I am very carefull to say that I do Aikido or even I play Aikido rather than refer to myself as an Aikidoka.
Michael - I would consider you an Aikidoka but not your students.
There was quite an involved thread on this issue but I can't seem to find it.
kironin
12-08-2004, 11:48 PM
Rock is right and this whole Aikidoist/Aikidoka is one of my pet peeves.
I have never really liked Aikidoist. Sounds something like Exorcist.
I have always used "Aikido student" or I study Aikido and avoid the whole issue.
I have never really liked Aikidoist. Sounds something like Exorcist.
I have always used "Aikido student" or I study Aikido and avoid the whole issue.
PeterR
12-08-2004, 11:52 PM
The link for the discussion is here (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1434).
Agree with Craig.
Agree with Craig.
kironin
12-09-2004, 12:03 AM
and for those who haven't seen the Exorcist
http://www.angryalien.com/0204/exorcistbunnies.html
take notice of the ukemi.
:crazy:
http://www.angryalien.com/0204/exorcistbunnies.html
take notice of the ukemi.
:crazy:
PeterR
12-09-2004, 12:23 AM
Your are a bad man. Downright evil. :D
maikerus
12-09-2004, 01:01 AM
I usually say "study Aikido". I really don't like the term "play" even a little bit. I thought Aikidoka sounded a little gay, and I'd never heard of Aikidoist...which also sounds gay.
"do Aikido" also works for me.
Thanks for the bunnies,
--Michael
"do Aikido" also works for me.
Thanks for the bunnies,
--Michael
Peter Goldsbury
12-09-2004, 07:33 AM
In Japanese the suffix 'ka' does not always indicate that the doer of the activity is a professional. There are far too many compounds ending in '-ka' for one to be able to make such a generalization. The sense of 'ka' really depends on what comes before it. Thus, an 'aikenka' is a dog lover; a 'kibenka' is a sophist, a 'shoushokuka' is a light eater (opposite to a 'kenkanka'), and 'koushokuka', 'ryoushokuka', 'gyoshokuka' are all species of lecher (professional or otherwise).
I think Doshu would never be called an 'aikidouka' in Japan, except by someone who knows nothing about the art. I think the term designates someone who has put in a good number of years of training and who has a fair measure of expertise in the art, or someone who approaches aikido with such enthusiasm and dedication that it becomes the dominant influence in life. You know, the person who goes from seminar to seminar, with a huge weapon bag slung over the shoulder, and is the mainstay of daily training in the dojo. If you omit a few syllables from 'aikidouka', you get 'aikouka', which describes this person more exactly, but has nothing to do with aikido (the kanji being quite different).
Best regards,
I think Doshu would never be called an 'aikidouka' in Japan, except by someone who knows nothing about the art. I think the term designates someone who has put in a good number of years of training and who has a fair measure of expertise in the art, or someone who approaches aikido with such enthusiasm and dedication that it becomes the dominant influence in life. You know, the person who goes from seminar to seminar, with a huge weapon bag slung over the shoulder, and is the mainstay of daily training in the dojo. If you omit a few syllables from 'aikidouka', you get 'aikouka', which describes this person more exactly, but has nothing to do with aikido (the kanji being quite different).
Best regards,
Miguelspride67
12-09-2004, 09:13 AM
Hello Mr.Jun Akiyama
First of all i wan it to thanks you for letting me expres my self in one of the biggest web pages of martial arts.
Look I'm from Dominican Republic and Aikido is a recent martial art in town.
My Dojos name is Shugyo Shin and we are affiliated to Aikikai since 2003, our direct sensei is Phillip Berrios from Puerto Rico, and his alway under the supervision of Yamada Sensei.
First of all i wan it to thanks you for letting me expres my self in one of the biggest web pages of martial arts.
Look I'm from Dominican Republic and Aikido is a recent martial art in town.
My Dojos name is Shugyo Shin and we are affiliated to Aikikai since 2003, our direct sensei is Phillip Berrios from Puerto Rico, and his alway under the supervision of Yamada Sensei.
Miguelspride67
12-09-2004, 09:16 AM
Aikido is BUDO, more than a Martial Art i a Martial WAY
Kevin Temple
12-09-2004, 09:23 AM
I don't believe claiming the different styles of Aikido are not martial arts at all would be correct, because the can certainly be used for defense, especially in the hands of a dedicated/skilled practitioner, however, IMO certain styles of Aikido are different martial arts. It seems that some people can't deal with that. And being dance-like doesn't neccessarrily exclude something from being a martial art, as long as it works. Capoeira looks like crazy dancing, but as far as I know, its decidedly martial.
Miguelspride67
12-09-2004, 09:40 AM
hey Kevin you for sure know what your saying. i like that
Thats the same thing with some Kung-fu Style, Have one of you guys watch Bagua is mortiferus
Thats the same thing with some Kung-fu Style, Have one of you guys watch Bagua is mortiferus
happysod
12-09-2004, 09:48 AM
To paraphrase (badly) an old quote - being an independent ki dancing fool definitely seems a case of being not much to speak of but a hell of a uke to talk about... (bursts into song with a sob vibrating in his throat- "but I did it myyyy wayyy", apologies for the b-flat at the end)
CNYMike
12-09-2004, 11:13 AM
..... I really don't like the term "play" even a little bit .....
FYI --- and in case you didn't know (otherwise disregard) --- the term "play" is perfectly valid in Filipino martial arts. It's not that they don't take it seriously -- they do --- but the idea is to do it carefully and safely for the sake of learning the art. Guro Kevin Seaman made the analogy of learning to play the drums; you start off slowly with those brush-sticks, then build up to wild stuff over time. In the same way, FMA people start slowly and safely and work up. Indonesian art people, too.
So if you see the words "play" or "player" associated with a martil art, it's not demeaning or insulting, just connoting that they're training safely, not fighting. And my knee-jerk reaction to "play Aikido" or "Aikido player" would be the same way.
FYI.
..... I thought Aikidoka sounded a little gay, and I'd never heard of Aikidoist...which also sounds gay.
Oh, you thilly! :D (I'm gonna get if to that one, I know it.)
.... "do Aikido" also works for me.
Thanks for the bunnies,
--Michael
Yes, the bunnies were evil
-- 'Nother Michael
FYI --- and in case you didn't know (otherwise disregard) --- the term "play" is perfectly valid in Filipino martial arts. It's not that they don't take it seriously -- they do --- but the idea is to do it carefully and safely for the sake of learning the art. Guro Kevin Seaman made the analogy of learning to play the drums; you start off slowly with those brush-sticks, then build up to wild stuff over time. In the same way, FMA people start slowly and safely and work up. Indonesian art people, too.
So if you see the words "play" or "player" associated with a martil art, it's not demeaning or insulting, just connoting that they're training safely, not fighting. And my knee-jerk reaction to "play Aikido" or "Aikido player" would be the same way.
FYI.
..... I thought Aikidoka sounded a little gay, and I'd never heard of Aikidoist...which also sounds gay.
Oh, you thilly! :D (I'm gonna get if to that one, I know it.)
.... "do Aikido" also works for me.
Thanks for the bunnies,
--Michael
Yes, the bunnies were evil
-- 'Nother Michael
jonreading
12-09-2004, 12:31 PM
American baseball started in the late 1800's and became popular in the 1900's. Today, we see baseball as it is played in the 2000's. Baseball in 1895 looks nothing like baseball today, yet most people do not contest that the sport is still baseball. Why?
I believe that aikido is foremost a martial art, and budo as the product of training. I agree that training is not as intense as it used to be, and people do not train with the same dedication. How hard to you pound the iron to work out the impurities? We do need more intesity in training, but that doesn't mean "harder" training. There is an important distinction between the two terms.
I believe that there is "hard" aikido out there, but it's called daito ryu aiki jujitsu. It's good stuff and very effective, but not aikido. I think it is easy to confuse the two arts because they are similar in practice. I feel that good aikido has elements of daito ryu in it because my personal feeling is that daito ryu is the backbone of aikido. But I don't force my students to practice daito ryu, because they want to practice aikido.
Same argument, different person. Aikido is not the same as it was in the 40's, and won't be the same in 100 years. We are the guardians of aikido and must preserve it as effective technique for the world in which we live. Ellis Sensei is just conservative...
I believe that aikido is foremost a martial art, and budo as the product of training. I agree that training is not as intense as it used to be, and people do not train with the same dedication. How hard to you pound the iron to work out the impurities? We do need more intesity in training, but that doesn't mean "harder" training. There is an important distinction between the two terms.
I believe that there is "hard" aikido out there, but it's called daito ryu aiki jujitsu. It's good stuff and very effective, but not aikido. I think it is easy to confuse the two arts because they are similar in practice. I feel that good aikido has elements of daito ryu in it because my personal feeling is that daito ryu is the backbone of aikido. But I don't force my students to practice daito ryu, because they want to practice aikido.
Same argument, different person. Aikido is not the same as it was in the 40's, and won't be the same in 100 years. We are the guardians of aikido and must preserve it as effective technique for the world in which we live. Ellis Sensei is just conservative...
Rocky Izumi
12-09-2004, 03:18 PM
I think the term designates someone who has put in a good number of years of training and who has a fair measure of expertise in the art, or someone who approaches aikido with such enthusiasm and dedication that it becomes the dominant influence in life. You know, the person who goes from seminar to seminar, with a huge weapon bag slung over the shoulder, and is the mainstay of daily training in the dojo. If you omit a few syllables from 'aikidouka', you get 'aikouka', which describes this person more exactly, but has nothing to do with aikido (the kanji being quite different).
Best regards,
Hee hee hee. Seriously though. I used to use the term more generally as you describe until I got wacked in the back of the head by Tohei Akira Sensei for using the term so loosely. (This was back in the early 80's.) But then, Japanese is such a evolving language that I can't keep up since I no longer reside there. I had to translate a car manual for a person here who bought a used Toyota from Japan. I couldn't believe the Anglicisation of the Japanese language. A couple times I got a little confused but the word was in Katakana so I figured it had to be an Anglicisation of something and figured it out. My friends in Japan still tell me I talk like their grandfather.
Rock
Best regards,
Hee hee hee. Seriously though. I used to use the term more generally as you describe until I got wacked in the back of the head by Tohei Akira Sensei for using the term so loosely. (This was back in the early 80's.) But then, Japanese is such a evolving language that I can't keep up since I no longer reside there. I had to translate a car manual for a person here who bought a used Toyota from Japan. I couldn't believe the Anglicisation of the Japanese language. A couple times I got a little confused but the word was in Katakana so I figured it had to be an Anglicisation of something and figured it out. My friends in Japan still tell me I talk like their grandfather.
Rock
gasman
12-13-2004, 10:51 AM
I think synchronised swimming is one of the more spectacular events in the olympics. Specially womens synchronised swimming... ;D
tedehara
12-13-2004, 11:32 AM
Rock is right and this whole Aikidoist/Aikidoka is one of my pet peeves...I am very carefull to say that I do Aikido or even I play Aikido rather than refer to myself as an Aikidoka...I don't even like saying player. In urban street slang, being a player means you're a pimp or have those tendencies.
While I'm not over-joyed with Aikidoist, I use it. If someone could come up with something better, I'd switch in a heartbeat.
;)
While I'm not over-joyed with Aikidoist, I use it. If someone could come up with something better, I'd switch in a heartbeat.
;)
markwalsh
12-13-2004, 04:01 PM
Wristgrabber :)
Started off as an insult from some kung fu friends, but I know few people who have reclaimed it now.
Started off as an insult from some kung fu friends, but I know few people who have reclaimed it now.
Rocky Izumi
12-13-2004, 04:36 PM
I prefer Aiki-penitent.
Rock
Rock
CNYMike
12-14-2004, 12:23 PM
^^ Yes, that works for me, too. :)
kaishaku
12-14-2004, 01:58 PM
Dibbs on "chicken chaser."
Talon
12-14-2004, 03:28 PM
Why not just say "Aikido Practitioner"...
By the way after watching the videos on the site of the article author, I must say that the videos looked less practiacl than at my school.
By the way after watching the videos on the site of the article author, I must say that the videos looked less practiacl than at my school.
Rocky Izumi
12-14-2004, 10:55 PM
Dibbs on "chicken chaser."
That is getting too close to the idea of "choking the chicken."
Rock
That is getting too close to the idea of "choking the chicken."
Rock
mjchip
12-23-2004, 03:15 PM
That is getting too close to the idea of "choking the chicken."
Rock
...and why would one bother "choking the chicken" if one could hit it with a bokuto. :D
Mark Chiappetta
Rock
...and why would one bother "choking the chicken" if one could hit it with a bokuto. :D
Mark Chiappetta
Rocky Izumi
12-24-2004, 09:40 PM
...and why would one bother "choking the chicken" if one could hit it with a bokuto. :D
Mark Chiappetta
Reminds me a of joke about getting ketsup out of a bottle.
Rock
Mark Chiappetta
Reminds me a of joke about getting ketsup out of a bottle.
Rock
McConnell
02-27-2005, 10:04 PM
:) That's a very polite way of putting it!
I've seen how Mr Ellis demonstrates his 'Aikido' and it's very rough and uncontrolled. Your practice really does reflect your personality and beliefs.
What's sad is that he instills his confrontational attitude into his students, and openly says that his students could wipe the floor with anybody else's students.. :(
I feel very sorry for those who have lost the way of Aikido and just want to fight.
Ruth
Uncontrolled? And when was it that you saw Ellis perform his Aikido? You might want to clarify that a bit more.
As for me I personally sat down with Sensei Rogers at his house, who is my instructor of 3yrs to date, to watch converted 8mm films of Sensei Ellis and Sensei Goodwin (among others, including Poole)(http://www.geocities.com/britishaikido/i/gallery/Newspapers/AikidoNewspapers006-big.jpg) perform Aikido. It was Sensei Goodwin who was a bit of a sadistic with knives and swords (lopped off his ear one time practicing his sword) attacked Sensei Ellis with a large knife seen flashing in those films. I watched it on DVD while it played on the computer. Sensei Ellis, everytime, was able to put Sensei Goodwin down on the mat. Sensei Goodwin was never able to stick it to Sensei Ellis and would for once hoped to stab him in those Aikido demostrations. Even Ellis' wife couldn't bear watching it. And yet it was Sensei Goodwin who told Ellis' wife that he was trying to stab the SOB, much to her horror.
And, oh, the knife thing? Go here:
http://thehutushq.blogspot.com/2005/02/sensei-ellis-when-gi-harmonizes-with.html
And you'll see the actual Gi that Sensei Ellis wore when the knife went through it.
As for "uncontrolled", nothing in the films or in person suggest that Sensei Ellis' actions were "uncontrolled." Rough, yes, for the poor guy who insist on wanting to break his own arm (which it did happen to one guy twice).
If a technique works, then that's all the control you need because that could mean the difference between life and death, or getting hurt.
I've seen how Mr Ellis demonstrates his 'Aikido' and it's very rough and uncontrolled. Your practice really does reflect your personality and beliefs.
What's sad is that he instills his confrontational attitude into his students, and openly says that his students could wipe the floor with anybody else's students.. :(
I feel very sorry for those who have lost the way of Aikido and just want to fight.
Ruth
Uncontrolled? And when was it that you saw Ellis perform his Aikido? You might want to clarify that a bit more.
As for me I personally sat down with Sensei Rogers at his house, who is my instructor of 3yrs to date, to watch converted 8mm films of Sensei Ellis and Sensei Goodwin (among others, including Poole)(http://www.geocities.com/britishaikido/i/gallery/Newspapers/AikidoNewspapers006-big.jpg) perform Aikido. It was Sensei Goodwin who was a bit of a sadistic with knives and swords (lopped off his ear one time practicing his sword) attacked Sensei Ellis with a large knife seen flashing in those films. I watched it on DVD while it played on the computer. Sensei Ellis, everytime, was able to put Sensei Goodwin down on the mat. Sensei Goodwin was never able to stick it to Sensei Ellis and would for once hoped to stab him in those Aikido demostrations. Even Ellis' wife couldn't bear watching it. And yet it was Sensei Goodwin who told Ellis' wife that he was trying to stab the SOB, much to her horror.
And, oh, the knife thing? Go here:
http://thehutushq.blogspot.com/2005/02/sensei-ellis-when-gi-harmonizes-with.html
And you'll see the actual Gi that Sensei Ellis wore when the knife went through it.
As for "uncontrolled", nothing in the films or in person suggest that Sensei Ellis' actions were "uncontrolled." Rough, yes, for the poor guy who insist on wanting to break his own arm (which it did happen to one guy twice).
If a technique works, then that's all the control you need because that could mean the difference between life and death, or getting hurt.
AaronFrancher
02-27-2005, 10:19 PM
Unfortunately, in present times, many of the martial arts have been turned into sports. Therefore, are no longer "martial" nor are they any longer an "art". However, some have tried to maintain the old ways and modify them to fit new day situations. But those are still the martial art they began as. Where as the new competition driven forms no longer classify in the same category.
That is not to say that competition is bad way of practicing, it just shouldn't be the schools main objective to win trophies.
A martial art is way to train the body into a controlled weapon. And a martial artist is the embodiment of that.
Just like a painted masterpiece, a martial artist takes years to shape and form each contour and each piece of his/her essence. And even when we are finished age will also shape our art, our masterpiece, into what it will be when we die.
That is not to say that competition is bad way of practicing, it just shouldn't be the schools main objective to win trophies.
A martial art is way to train the body into a controlled weapon. And a martial artist is the embodiment of that.
Just like a painted masterpiece, a martial artist takes years to shape and form each contour and each piece of his/her essence. And even when we are finished age will also shape our art, our masterpiece, into what it will be when we die.
mathewjgano
02-28-2005, 03:54 AM
I think what I read of the article was not insulting...Aikido is not an art of war (martial art) in the strictest of meanings. I learn both aikijujitsu and aikido at the same time when I learn how to throw people who grab my finger, for not only do I learn how to hurt them, but how to not hurt them. Perhaps the "dancing" form is not as self-protecting and perhaps it is. It's is really all about a proper state of mind. I conducted a very good aiki technique long before I learned what aikido was, so really it's not some discovered thing. The ability is already within us and if we have the proper awareness, we'll use it. The benefit to aikido is the codification it provides...the way it describes things for us. I was lucky when I threw my much larger friend to the ground as a young boy. In practicing aikido though, I step away from the realm of luck and walk toward a concious decision to increase my awareness.
bogglefreak20
02-28-2005, 05:40 AM
I would definitely be "labeled" a dancer judging from the point of view in this article. However, I'm not at all offended by the author's "definition" of Aikido being an Art. Why wouldn't it be Art? And why would I be offended if someone said to me: "All you do at that dojo of yours 3 times a week is artistic work." From my point of view, that's a compliment not an insult.
Regardless of so many different labels (that, to be honest, tell a lot more about people who say them then they do about Aikido itself) I'm totally satisfied with training in "something" that makes me feel good both physically and mentally.
Regardless of so many different labels (that, to be honest, tell a lot more about people who say them then they do about Aikido itself) I'm totally satisfied with training in "something" that makes me feel good both physically and mentally.
bogglefreak20
02-28-2005, 05:54 AM
Capoeira looks like crazy dancing, but as far as I know, its decidedly martial.
I'm not sure of the roots of capoeira, but i definitely know some people that train in it as a form of art. Dance. Period. No martial aspects added. The fact that there is a definite accent on the importance of rhythm in capoeira allows an observer to see it as a dance.
And, by analogy, there is a huge accent on the importance of the right timing and movement in accordance with your partner in Aikido. So you can definitely see Aikido as a dance.
I'm not sure of the roots of capoeira, but i definitely know some people that train in it as a form of art. Dance. Period. No martial aspects added. The fact that there is a definite accent on the importance of rhythm in capoeira allows an observer to see it as a dance.
And, by analogy, there is a huge accent on the importance of the right timing and movement in accordance with your partner in Aikido. So you can definitely see Aikido as a dance.
David Humm
02-28-2005, 07:39 AM
Having spoken to Ellis Sensei several times regarding his definition of "dance" aikido, I can assure everyone he appreciates and understands the importance of blending, timing and everything else that makes aikido function however, I think its fair to say that this appreciation does not extend to aikido which is practiced/studied outside of any 'martial' resemblance hence, he holds the opinion that Aikido studied in this way has no more martial value than dance.
One must appreciate that Ellis Sensei holds very strong opinions about the martial art he's been involved in since 1956/7 (can't remember which) It is obvious from training with Ellis/Eastman or any of the other direct students of Abbe Sensei, that "MARTIAL" was very much at the forefront of the training. Regardless of one's opinions about "the good 'ole days" and whether instruction then was good, bad or indifferent, the training was 'harder' than *much* of what is practiced in the UK today.
With regards to Ellis Sensei's supposed 'outspoken' nature. I say it’s a shame more people aren’t prepared to speak their mind. There's too much sugar coating in the world in general and I'm of the opinion that many individuals are often unprepared to hear often painful truth when it exists.
Yes Ellis Sensei speaks his mind, yes people have been offended by his directness, No, Ellis Sensei does not intentionally offend, he simply says what’s on his mind, truthfully and sincerely. When Ellis Sensei is wrong he will apologise as sincerely and he speaks.
Would Ellis Sensei work within a diplomatic corps? I think he'd last about 30 seconds, do you know exactly where you stand with him? ABSOLUTELY. Are we all the same? The answers obvious.
With regards to the "rough aikido" comment. I study Aikikai Aikido with the UKA; I've also studied under Ellis Sensei. Rough ? Not at all. Direct and powerful where atemi features as an integral part of the system - very much so. Each to their own I say. Train where you get the most from what you want out of it. Judge Ellis Sensei when you’ve experienced as wide variety of aikido as he has throughout the last 50 years.
Dave
One must appreciate that Ellis Sensei holds very strong opinions about the martial art he's been involved in since 1956/7 (can't remember which) It is obvious from training with Ellis/Eastman or any of the other direct students of Abbe Sensei, that "MARTIAL" was very much at the forefront of the training. Regardless of one's opinions about "the good 'ole days" and whether instruction then was good, bad or indifferent, the training was 'harder' than *much* of what is practiced in the UK today.
With regards to Ellis Sensei's supposed 'outspoken' nature. I say it’s a shame more people aren’t prepared to speak their mind. There's too much sugar coating in the world in general and I'm of the opinion that many individuals are often unprepared to hear often painful truth when it exists.
Yes Ellis Sensei speaks his mind, yes people have been offended by his directness, No, Ellis Sensei does not intentionally offend, he simply says what’s on his mind, truthfully and sincerely. When Ellis Sensei is wrong he will apologise as sincerely and he speaks.
Would Ellis Sensei work within a diplomatic corps? I think he'd last about 30 seconds, do you know exactly where you stand with him? ABSOLUTELY. Are we all the same? The answers obvious.
With regards to the "rough aikido" comment. I study Aikikai Aikido with the UKA; I've also studied under Ellis Sensei. Rough ? Not at all. Direct and powerful where atemi features as an integral part of the system - very much so. Each to their own I say. Train where you get the most from what you want out of it. Judge Ellis Sensei when you’ve experienced as wide variety of aikido as he has throughout the last 50 years.
Dave
bogglefreak20
03-01-2005, 05:41 AM
With regards to Ellis Sensei's supposed 'outspoken' nature. I say it's a shame more people aren't prepared to speak their mind. There's too much sugar coating in the world in general and I'm of the opinion that many individuals are often unprepared to hear often painful truth when it exists.
Yes Ellis Sensei speaks his mind, yes people have been offended by his directness, No, Ellis Sensei does not intentionally offend, he simply says what's on his mind, truthfully and sincerely. When Ellis Sensei is wrong he will apologise as sincerely and he speaks.
With all due respect toward Ellis Sensei and yourself, I don't believe there is a single, one-and-only Truth to anything, let alone Aikido.
Yes Ellis Sensei speaks his mind, yes people have been offended by his directness, No, Ellis Sensei does not intentionally offend, he simply says what's on his mind, truthfully and sincerely. When Ellis Sensei is wrong he will apologise as sincerely and he speaks.
With all due respect toward Ellis Sensei and yourself, I don't believe there is a single, one-and-only Truth to anything, let alone Aikido.
Mike Sigman
03-01-2005, 10:01 AM
With all due respect toward Ellis Sensei and yourself, I don't believe there is a single, one-and-only Truth to anything, let alone Aikido.That is absolutely true.
Mike
Mike
David Humm
03-01-2005, 01:06 PM
With all due respect toward Ellis Sensei and yourself, I don't believe there is a single, one-and-only Truth to anything, let alone Aikido.
You may be right but then paradoxically how would we know if what you say is truthful thus correct?
The point I was attempting to make was that Ellis Sensei will openly speak his mind on aikido, issues which might otherwise be considered taboo or politically incorrect. Some people don't want to hear that and labeled him a trouble maker simply because he has the fortitude to openly stand his ground when most will quietly mutter, quibble, do or say nothing.
That is of course quite acceptable, we all have the right to listen and absorb (or not as the case may be) exactly what we want however, Ellis Sensei also has the right to say exactly what he feels appropriate.
Freedom of speech and expression of opinion are cornerstones of our society, I'd rather someone call me a ***** to my face and have the minerals to do so, I might not agree with them but you'd be assured of a degree of respect for being up front. Ellis Sensei is, I strongly suspect, of exactly the same mind. I think its fair to say there are those who simply can't hack that level of sincerity.
Kind regards to all
Dave
You may be right but then paradoxically how would we know if what you say is truthful thus correct?
The point I was attempting to make was that Ellis Sensei will openly speak his mind on aikido, issues which might otherwise be considered taboo or politically incorrect. Some people don't want to hear that and labeled him a trouble maker simply because he has the fortitude to openly stand his ground when most will quietly mutter, quibble, do or say nothing.
That is of course quite acceptable, we all have the right to listen and absorb (or not as the case may be) exactly what we want however, Ellis Sensei also has the right to say exactly what he feels appropriate.
Freedom of speech and expression of opinion are cornerstones of our society, I'd rather someone call me a ***** to my face and have the minerals to do so, I might not agree with them but you'd be assured of a degree of respect for being up front. Ellis Sensei is, I strongly suspect, of exactly the same mind. I think its fair to say there are those who simply can't hack that level of sincerity.
Kind regards to all
Dave
Mike Sigman
03-01-2005, 01:19 PM
The point I was attempting to make was that Ellis Sensei will openly speak his mind on aikido, issues which might otherwise be considered taboo or politically incorrect. Some people don't want to hear that and labeled him a trouble maker simply because he has the fortitude to openly stand his ground when most will quietly mutter, quibble, do or say nothing. I've never met Ellis Amdur personally, but I've read some of his stuff and corresponded with him occasionally.... in my opinion, his manner of honestly and openly discussing his opinions about various matters has been one of the redeeming and positive aspects of the whole Aikido community. I.e., a lot of people who dismiss Aikido's worth wind up having some respect for Aikido because of Ellis. He functionally knows and can demonstrate the topics he discusses, so right or wrong he's worth listening to. The issues need to be discussed; the personality aspects shouldn't be important.
My opinion, FWIW.
Mike Sigman
My opinion, FWIW.
Mike Sigman
akiy
03-01-2005, 01:25 PM
I've never met Ellis Amdur personally
I believe the "Ellis sensei" mentioned is Henry Ellis, not Ellis Amdur. Henry Ellis wrote the article which started this entire thread.
-- Jun
I believe the "Ellis sensei" mentioned is Henry Ellis, not Ellis Amdur. Henry Ellis wrote the article which started this entire thread.
-- Jun
David Humm
03-01-2005, 01:37 PM
I've never met Ellis Amdur personally, but I've read some of his stuff and corresponded with him occasionally.... in my opinion, his manner of honestly and openly discussing his opinions about various matters has been one of the redeeming and positive aspects of the whole Aikido community. I.e., a lot of people who dismiss Aikido's worth wind up having some respect for Aikido because of Ellis. He functionally knows and can demonstrate the topics he discusses, so right or wrong he's worth listening to. The issues need to be discussed; the personality aspects shouldn't be important.
My opinion, FWIW.
Mike Sigman
Wrong "Ellis" We are discussing Henry Ellis Principal Coach to ESTA and his article.
Kind regards
Dave
My opinion, FWIW.
Mike Sigman
Wrong "Ellis" We are discussing Henry Ellis Principal Coach to ESTA and his article.
Kind regards
Dave
David Humm
03-01-2005, 01:38 PM
Sorry Jun - "Ai-uchi" of postings me thinks :)
Dave
Dave
Mike Sigman
03-01-2005, 01:41 PM
Wrong "Ellis" We are discussing Henry Ellis Principal Coach to ESTA and his article. Oops... my bad.
:dead:
:dead:
Mikey
03-01-2005, 04:37 PM
I think of myself as an Aikidope.
If I accidentally hit your teeth with my elbow and straighten your smile, would that make me an Aikidontist?
If I keep asking these questions, will I be considered an Aikidork?
Aikido or Aikidonot. There is no try.
If I accidentally hit your teeth with my elbow and straighten your smile, would that make me an Aikidontist?
If I keep asking these questions, will I be considered an Aikidork?
Aikido or Aikidonot. There is no try.
vBulletin® v3.6.5, Copyright ©2000-2009, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.