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Ron Pyle
11-30-2004, 01:33 PM
I have just started in MA's. My choices were rather limited, living in a not large city. The choice I made I ask for thoughts and criticisms. Also, the choice I made depended on more than this technical aspect. I would just like to address the technical here..

I chose to study under a Sensei who teaches Shudokan Karate-do, Judo, Jujitsu. I'm a little confused on the judo jujitsu. He talks as if the two are basically the same? Would like input on that. He also told me he is willing to teach me Aikido. That would be down the road. He has me concentrating on the Shudokan right now.

I had the choice of learning Jukite-Jujitsu. As I understand, this is a combination of Judo and Aikido. I figured I might be better off where I chose. This because I could decide for myself what all works best for me personally. Develop better. Also learn more. Know more.

fotomaniak
11-30-2004, 01:42 PM
Sounds like he is teaching too many arts :rolleyes: Are there any schools around you which specialize in one particular art?

Ron Pyle
11-30-2004, 02:09 PM
There is one karate school. To defend my Sensei. He is a seventh degree in Shudokan. The system will only allow him to ever become an eighth. He has "students" teach other things. Such as the judo jujitsu. As far as I know. He does not have classes with Aikido. That would be something special. He is not a young man either. He has had many years to learn....wisdom....

batemanb
12-01-2004, 02:18 AM
I have just started in MA's. My choices were rather limited, living in a not large city. The choice I made I ask for thoughts and criticisms. Also, the choice I made depended on more than this technical aspect. I would just like to address the technical here..

I chose to study under a Sensei who teaches Shudokan Karate-do, Judo, Jujitsu. I'm a little confused on the judo jujitsu. He talks as if the two are basically the same? Would like input on that. He also told me he is willing to teach me Aikido. That would be down the road. He has me concentrating on the Shudokan right now.

I had the choice of learning Jukite-Jujitsu. As I understand, this is a combination of Judo and Aikido. I figured I might be better off where I chose. This because I could decide for myself what all works best for me personally. Develop better. Also learn more. Know more.

There is one karate school. To defend my Sensei. He is a seventh degree in Shudokan. The system will only allow him to ever become an eighth. He has "students" teach other things. Such as the judo jujitsu. As far as I know. He does not have classes with Aikido..

Hi Ron,

In your first post you ask for thoughts and criticisms on technical aspects, you say that he will teach you Aikido later. In your second post you say he doesn't have classes with Aikido.

From the little information you have given, I would say that it is very difficult to comment on any technical aspects at all. The fact that you have come to an Aikido message board gives little chance that we will be able to add much regarding his other arts. If you are looking for opinions, most here will obviously be pro Aikido.

On your question regarding Judo Jujitsu, jujitsu is the original art developed in the days of the samurai. Both Judo and Aikido were developed from Jujitsu adding different aspects with regards to their philosophies and purpose.

You haven't mentioned your dojo, the sensei or where you are, and there is nothing in your profile, so we can't add much there.

My thoughts, if you want more info on your style you would be better looking at other places on the web, www.e-budo.com may be a good start. If you want to learn Aikido, look for a club that teaches it as a main core, not something that he'll teach you later.


regards

Bryan

Dazzler
12-01-2004, 06:43 AM
What are your Sensei's aikido credentials?

If he isn't involved with it at the moment it may make it difficult to pass aikido on to you.

Just curious....

D

ian
12-01-2004, 07:46 AM
Most japanese martial arts derive from 'ju-jitsu' which effectively encompases all unarmed combat. There were hundreds of schools of ju-jitsu, teaching slightly different things - judo was originally derived by picking the 'most-effective' ju-jitsu techniques, although modern judo has become a sport and many techniques are no longer taught.

Aikido developed from daito-ryu aiki-jitsu (a form of ju-jitsu). However I'm suprised that he says anything is like a mixture of judo and aikido - aikido contains some of the judo throws already (ueshiba did judo). Also, it suggests he is talking about techniques - aikido is not about techniques it is about principles (esp. blending), which makes me a bit dubious.

As I always say, get what you can - if you believe it to be beneficial for your purposes, persue it. (but don't be fooled by credentials - apparently there is someone who is 164th dan in his own style of karate; wow he must be good). Shop around.

rachel
12-01-2004, 09:48 AM
Of course I don't this particular dojo or Sensei, but I've never really understood people who think they can teach that many arts, as it takes a lifetime to master one art. Not only that, but his 'students' that are teaching the other arts, who did they learn from and what are their teaching crudentials? Like I said, I don't know the specifics, but it sounds to me like this school offers a little too much.

Ron Pyle
12-01-2004, 11:59 AM
If you want to know more about me. I posted an introduction in the introductions section. This is really a small town. I want to show respect for my Sensei. His achieving no ego. People here talk too much. I really don't want one of those idiots coming to him and saying they're talking about you on the web. Perhaps, when he does have me at a point where he will start teaching me Aikido. Then, with his permission, I will post that info. here. I didn't wish critique of my Sensei. I only asked for the difference between the way I've gone and learning Jukite-Jujitsu. Please, this is the last I will say for my Sensei. Mostly because there were honest curiosities here. The man has always worked hard core security in his day job. Hundreds of millions in cash floating around, tons of people, drunks, crooks, easily confused situations. Now he works higher up in an easier security situation. I imagine, like me and many others, he has come here for a rather semi-retirement job. This is a wonderfully nice place to live. Many live here who work in other parts of the country. I'm sure he is very involved with Aikido in his "day job". I wouldn't be surprised if he teaches his employees Aikido. Aikido is the type of martial art "management" requires to be used if at all possible in his day job here. I have not asked him his credentials in Aikido. I trust his integrity. If he says he can teach....so be it. As far as him not having classes in Aikido. I may become his only student. Or I imagine he may have me join in teaching his employees? I don't have a problem with that.

I would appreciate getting off critiquing the Sensei. I know there are problems with dummies out there. That is partially why I chose this path. My judgement of his integrity. That is not what I posted this for. Again, I only asked for the difference between the way I've gone and learning Jukite-Jujitsu. And the description of the Jukite-Jujitsu came from that dojo.

I appreciate the honesty of one in saying most would advise to go with the Aikido here. I'm hoping for more experienced people in martial arts to comment. I'm probably just looking for verification of my choice. I do think learning Aikido is better. Especially since starting to read the creator's writings.

On my learning Karate first. I'm learning that was a very wise choice of my Sensei. I lef it up to him. He rightly judged me as taking to the soft like a duck takes to water. I think I would learn it easily and quickly. I do need the hard. I am not learning it easily.

Please....if you must know what I am doing here. You can read my introduction. You can also see the thread in Spirituality the young man started who is having problems between Christianity and Aikido.

Ron Pyle
12-01-2004, 01:17 PM
Of course I don't this particular dojo or Sensei, but I've never really understood people who think they can teach that many arts, as it takes a lifetime to master one art. Not only that, but his 'students' that are teaching the other arts, who did they learn from and what are their teaching crudentials? Like I said, I don't know the specifics, but it sounds to me like this school offers a little too much.

I was hoping you knew that once a person reaches black belt. He has learned the basics. That is all he has learned. He is then learning how to teach. I know from my life's experience that if you really want to learn something, you must teach it. As a beginner, I am often given a black to teach me the basics I need to learn. This while the Sensei teaches the other more advanced students. He has a fourth degree black in charge of the childrens class.
The person who teaches the Jujitsu is, if I remember correctly, a fifth degree black. He is a student of our Sensei. He is also a first degree black in Karate. From here I'm understanding the Jujitsu Judo comparison. The same man teaches both. This one man is the entirety of this school offers a little too much.

suren
12-01-2004, 01:33 PM
I only asked for the difference between the way I've gone and learning Jukite-Jujitsu.

Ron, I do not understand your question. Could you please specify again for stupid people like me, what is your question and what you would like to discuss?

kaishaku
12-01-2004, 01:43 PM
Sounds like your cup is already full.

Ron Pyle
12-01-2004, 04:44 PM
Ron, I do not understand your question. Could you please specify again for stupid people like me, what is your question and what you would like to discuss?

It is better for me to learn Jukite-Jujitsu. Or....
Sometime in the future, learn Aikido from the only person within 100 miles who can teach me. The Aikido depends on my learning Karate for now. The time to start Aikido depends on that same teachers decision.

suren
12-01-2004, 04:52 PM
Evaluate your options, choose what feels right for you. If name of the system they teach feels strange ask them about their linage, who were their teachers, how long they were practicing the art. That should not hurt their feelings, if it does leave them alone.

Lan Powers
12-01-2004, 06:01 PM
Hi Ron,
No attacks on your Sensei or his credentials here in this forum. It sounds like you have a feeling folks are being critical of your teacher. If I may comment, more of a cautionary note is being given.
Hopefully the people here mean this in the spirit of helping you, and answering your questions.
(I really think this is the case)
Suren has given you some sound advise (among others) You make your own choices.
But you have brought the issues of your training here for comment, so hopefully "our" input will help you in your questions.
Welcome
Lan

rachel
12-02-2004, 01:57 PM
This one man is the entirety of this school offers a little too much.
That's exactly my point. I don't think any of us are trying to critique your Sensei in particular, but many of us obviously felt the need to make sure you were aware of such problems, because in your original post, you made him sound a little too good to be true. You know him, and we don't, so if you trust him, by all means, study under him and study hard.

As for teaching to learn, you are absolutely right. I began teaching children's classes in my dojo before I even took my shodan exam. I learned a lot from teaching (trying to explain things, really) and it helped to improve my Aikido.

I hope you enjoy your training, whatever you choose to do in the long run.
;)

Roy Dean
12-02-2004, 02:16 PM
"...but I've never really understood people who think they can teach that many arts, as it takes a lifetime to master one art."

This is the kind of attitude that will hamper your development. Who said it takes a lifetime? It is very possible to master an art and move on to the next. Case in point:

Julio Toribio: 5th dan Aikikai Aikido, Menkyo Kaiden in Hakko-Ryu Jujutsu, 10th dan Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu (Ninjutsu), 6th Dan Enshin Itto Ryu Batto Jutsu (Iaido), Nidan in Okinawan Kempo.

All real ranks under real masters. Certainly, there are many martial artists that dabble in many arts and move on before making significant progress. But there are also exceptional and talented people in this world that can do what others cannot. Don't limit yourself with limiting beliefs.

My 2 cents.

Roy Dean

Dazzler
12-03-2004, 06:17 AM
I had the choice of learning Jukite-Jujitsu. As I understand, this is a combination of Judo and Aikido. I figured I might be better off where I chose. This because I could decide for myself what all works best for me personally. Develop better. Also learn more. Know more.

If you want to know more surely its ok to ask a few questions?

This isn't being derogatory to the mans credentials but trying to establish the facts.

Once you have the facts you can decide which course of learning is best for you.

In my experience aikido is very different from other martial arts in its use of concepts rather than techniques. (although not unique).

This makes it harder to teach just a little bit of aikido from minimal exposure to it...probably harder than say a jujitsu man teaching a bit of karate from a few classes.

I'm sure the guy is very good at what he does and can teach you a lot, but I think as a newbie you could have called anything aikido and I'd have accepted it if it looked reasonable tough!

All the people here are doing is saying don't rush to call something aikido just because someone with a wide general MA profile calls it such.

I dont see anything wrong with asking where he learnt his aikido.

With respect

D

Ron Pyle
12-08-2004, 04:29 PM
Just wanted you all to know I'm not ignoring the advise and thoughts. I appreciate the concerns.

I especially appreciate Rachael's telling me I made him sound a little too good. I think that was my fault in failing to write well. I went back and read it. One could have even thought that he was also teaching the Jukite-Jujitsu. Which is a different dojo all together. That was my failure in writing well. I apologize.

I also need to scold myself for listening to Rachael. You told me to train and train hard. Well....dummy me. I went and ran twelve miles before class last night. Half way through class I almost passed out. Doh!

As it turns out. This discussion is a verification of my choice. I think this dojo is perfect for me. I had no idea just what I was getting myself into. It is far more than I expected. Heck... I've even come to the realization that, without my knowing it, I've actually chosen the black who teaches me. I didn't expect this kind of wisdom from my Sensei. Perhaps that is the same wisdom that caused him to look into my eyes very seriously and say: "I can teach you Aikido".

L. Camejo
12-08-2004, 06:01 PM
Hi Ron,

Interesting thread.

The advice given here is very sound thus far. I have met many who claim to teach much but in fact know nothing. Not saying that your Sensei is one of these, but someone who has is sure about what he does has nothing to hide and would not react badly to a few honest questions about lineage from a seriously interested student as you appear to be.

Right now there are people in this country who are passing off their own style of Jujutsu as Aikido by modifying some techniques, so to one who may not have felt Aikido and is not well versed in what it's technical repertoire and theory is about (such as 99% of the people who live here), sheep can in fact be sold as goats.

So it is good to be careful when choosing a teacher. If you indeed are serious about learning Aikido then unlearning ingrained bad habits may be more painful that running 12 miles any day. So it is important to learn Aikido from a good person who can teach Aikido, not Karate or Judo or anything else, since what you want to learn is Aikido, the reverse is also true. Also, unless he is your personal martial arts trainer, teaching you with a view towards achieving certain particular and defined goals that you have already discussed from the beginning (like learning effective self defence or wanting to become an instructor in the particluar styles he teaches), then there is no reason for you to learn Karate before starting Aikido. It is very possible that some Karate training can even hamper your future Aikido progress in the early stages.

As far as your choice regarding Aikido or Jukite Jujutsu, it may be nice if you could give some more info on this Jujutsu method, since I am not sure if we all know off hand what is covered in the Jukite curriculum. I hold rank in Jujutsu alongside Aikido, but Jujutsu is a very generic word, so particulars may be needed to make an informed decision. Sounds to me though that you already like Aikido very much due to its philosophy and if it sits right with you, then I think there is no more need to search for verification.

Roy: Interesting post. But as far as I know, if one has attained the level of menkyo kaiden in Hakkyo Ryu Jujutsu, the transition to Aikikai and Bujinkan Taijutsu is not that great a leap, so it is very possible to attain Dan rankings in the other styles if one has already "mastered"one that covers much of the curriculum of the others. The Iai and Kempo, now that calls for a different set of basics, so it is great that the person you refer to has achieved this level of mastery from the ground up. But to be brutally honest there are only 3 different sets of fundamentals contained in the 6 arts you mention. The Aikido, Hakkko Ryu and Bujinkan tend to overlap each other considerably. At least from my experience.

Of course I reserve the right to be wrong.:)
LC:ai::ki:

Charles Hill
12-08-2004, 06:41 PM
The Aikido, Hakkko Ryu and Bujinkan tend to overlap each other considerably.

Interestingly, Hatsumi Sensei has said that if a person does 5 years of judo before joining his dojo, it takes about 5 years to get the judo out of him and for him to start learning ninpo.

Charles Hill

Ron Pyle
12-09-2004, 07:01 PM
Hi Ron,
Also, unless he is your personal martial arts trainer, teaching you with a view towards achieving certain particular and defined goals that you have already discussed from the beginning (like learning effective self defence or wanting to become an instructor in the particluar styles he teaches), ...
LC:ai::ki:

Now we're getting somewhere on the technical.
When I went looking at dojo's. What I told them was:
I am a night time Taxi driver. People seems to be getting worse and worse. I've seen some real nut cases out there. I see the worst of people in this town. I'm afraid, one of these nights, I'm going to have to shoot somebody. And I really don't want to do that. Partly why I want to learn MA is for "his" good. It is better for him than some of the other alternatives. Like having to shoot him. I recently had a customer who had been a kick boxer when young. He grew up here. Back visiting. Was walking around town, smoking a cigar, and reminiscing. He was attacked by three idiots. They just came out of a doorway or alley or something at him. He took care of them without a problem. The only thing that saved him from being thrown in jail was a bunch of teenagers hanging around across the street as witnesses. The way he busted them up, the cops decided somebody had to go to jail. He said he pressed charges against the ring leader in hopes it might do good for all three. This guy told me he knew nothing. But thought that if a person were to combine something like kick boxing with something like jujitsu. He would really have something. None of these street fighters would stand a chance against him.
I said I also have diabetes. I was almost dead a year ago. Almost lost my eye sight when diagnosed late last winter. Am recovering. Getting better and better. Off medication completely. I now see as well as any 40 year old. I run 30 miles a week. I think exercising in MA is my next best choice to add to my running. I also consider martial arts as possibly the best rehabilitation exercise I can choose. I do think I have some nerve degredation. Having problems with coordination and concentration.
Also from the little I had read about MA. I was worried about the spiritual aspect. I had no wish to be trying to force my will upon others. I wish to keep my Christian values.

L. Camejo
12-09-2004, 08:48 PM
Interestingly, Hatsumi Sensei has said that if a person does 5 years of judo before joining his dojo, it takes about 5 years to get the judo out of him and for him to start learning ninpo.

Charles Hill

That post makes sense.

Though I have no idea what 5 years of Judo has to do with the overlap of Hakko Ryu, Aikido and Taijutsu.

Judo is none of the above.

LC:ai::ki:

bryce_montgomery
12-09-2004, 09:14 PM
Ron, I understand where you are coming from living in a small town with little options for budo. That being said I'd like to say that if that is the best dojo with the best instructor in town, go for it. As stated above, you have to make that decision. If you'd like to study karate, go for it. There's nothing wrong with karate at all. If you'd like the aspect of judo/jujutsu, go for that. I mean, you have to start somewhere and you have to do things you would enjoy doing.

As for the whole sensei thing. I find it hard to believe that there are no instructors here on Aikiweb that haven't studied other martial arts and have gotten fairly far in them. I mean, it's not that strange to hear an instructor teaching various arts, especially if he has other instructors for those arts like West Florida Aikido. All I'm basically trying to say is give it a shot. If you like the instructor, follow him. If you don't leave. Same for the style. It's all the way you feel about it.

Roy Dean
12-10-2004, 12:36 PM
Larry,

You're absolutely right, the arts he has studied are very closely related, and having mastered one makes the transition to the next so much easier. Puts you way ahead of the curve, just like wrestlers jumping into submission grappling or judo players studying sambo: the funtional fundamentals are already in place, it's simply adding to the technical syllabus of the participants.

But let's not focus on how easy or difficult these transitions were. Let's focus on attitude and beliefs. What if he had said, "I've been studying Kempo for the last 6 years, just another 14 to go and then maybe I'll understand it well enough to move on to another art"? Or said the same thing after studying Aikikai Aikido, "just another 15 years and I'll be ready to study Hakko-Ryu, after all, I might just be getting the hang of Iriminage then..."? What if Mochizuki or Tomiki had bought into the same mindset?

I tend to get reactionary when I hear statements like "It takes a lifetime to master one martial art." Why? Because I have seen the power of that statement limit people's curiosity toward other arts and retard their own growth in their chosen discipline. Plus, if Aikido is to be rediscovered and revitalized with each generation, then gathering multiple martial perspectives is key to keeping this art alive: recognizing what it is and isn't, and celebrating its strengths while acknowledging weaknesses or areas that need to be addressed.

"It takes a lifetime to master a martial art", in all fairness, is somewhat true. One can always be learning and improving, but there is a point of diminishing returns, (i.e. 10 addition years of study for a very small increase in efficiency, for example, since functionality had already been achieved). It can also take a lifetime if your training methods are ineffiencient or ineffective.

Look at BJ Penn. In a system where even tough and talented guys can take 10 years to reach black belt, he did it in 4, and was the first American to win the Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu World Championships at the black belt level. The next challenge? MMA. He's done quite well, and is possibly the best pound for pound fighter in the world today. His accomplishments, while admittedly quite removed from the average martial artist, would have never happened if he had spent the next 30 or 40 years attempting to achieve "mastery" in his original discipline. Winning the world championships counts as functional mastery to me.

Beliefs are very powerful. They can inspire an entire generation or demographic, or suppress the innate talent, desire, and creativity in each of us.

Roy Dean

Sue Hammerich
12-10-2004, 09:25 PM
WOW, Ron - take care of yourself. I imagine that the last thing you want to hear (or, rather, read) is that your situation is inspirational. But, yet, I must...
I work in rehab, and people like yourself - people who have really looked into "The Void" and made it back with a particular sense and perspective - really remind me of what makes my job so great. And the opportunity to practice MA so special.
As far at the nerve degeneration - if you are having a lot of pain that is affecting your gait when you run, consider infrared therapy. A lot of folks have had great results managing their peripheral neuropathy.