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chrisward
11-28-2004, 12:09 AM
I want to make clear first and foremost that I have absolute confidence and believe that Aikido is a complete system of self defense. However, my question is this, IF and only IF, one was to explore another art in regard to learning some striking techniques exclusively for the purpose to compliment their Aikido, I am interested in hearing from those of you out there who may have an opinion on which direction you would suggest? I know there are plenty of striking arts out there. I am just interested in hearing from those of you who have been involved with Aikido for awhile to see what you'd suggest.
Regards,
Chris

Kalle Koskinen
11-28-2004, 02:52 AM
Boxing.

MaryKaye
11-28-2004, 11:08 AM
Several of my teachers cross-train in karate, and one Seattle sensei teaches alternate classes (to mostly the same student pool) in ki-aikido and karate. It seems very hard to learn both at once, though.

I got to train with a boxing student who was sampling aikido for a few months; he taught me a number of extremely useful things about not only atemi, but ma'ai, movement, and how to look at your partner. It was quite interesting having a no-rank beginner correcting us on these topics, especially since he was almost always right.

Mary Kaye

bob_stra
11-28-2004, 11:35 AM
BKB - bare knuckle boxing (preferebly the real, WMA, european thing. I understand Savate still has elements of this)

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3133&highlight=kirk+lawson

WT as a second possibility, though I dislike their stances, movement etc.

L. Camejo
11-28-2004, 11:53 AM
Personally I've found Wing Chun and Jeet Kun Do to blend nicely with my Aikido training. I tend to prefer the low kicks as well. Some Tai Chi Chin Na also helps for the targeting of atemi waza imho.

Just from personal experience.

LC:ai::ki:

SeiserL
11-28-2004, 01:29 PM
IMHO, FMA/JKD.

Bronson
11-28-2004, 04:27 PM
Nyuk-nyuk ryu, originated by renowned fighting master Cur-li Howard. Master Cur-li is known for his distinctive and impressive kiai and his system is known for eye jabs, slaps, a wide variety of punches, and an impressive array of improvised weapons.

Check here (http://threestooges.net/index.php?main=/realplayer.php&) for training videos.

Bronson ;)

Larry Feldman
11-28-2004, 06:52 PM
On the 'softer side' Tai Chi
On the 'harder' side Ju Jitsu

But it really comes down to what you have access to - what you have to choose from, and personal preferences.

csinca
11-29-2004, 08:58 AM
I think Larry is on the right track. It depends on what is available to you. We are all going to have favorite styles based on our experience with them. A good instructor is going to be able to give you what you are looking for regardless of the style.

From a strict style perspective, I wish I had been exposed to JKD/FMA training years ago.

Chris

Dominic Toupin
11-29-2004, 09:15 AM
I'm training in aikido, ju-jutsu and karate at the same time right now and I will say that those three are very complementary. In fact, my aikido is like a soft ju-jutsu and my ju-jutsu is like a hard aikido :) But the striking techniques (especially low kicks) are very important to learn. Like the others, I will say that Boxing and kick-boxing can be useful even taekwon-do for the kicks.

It's my opinion, but every aikidoka should know basics Geri waza. In aikido, kick attack and defense are not enough present

ian
11-29-2004, 10:09 AM
Boxing is not a self-defence. You wear big padded gloves on your hands and you can't strike below the belt. Good for fitness. Bare-knuckel boxing or Savate I would say is a great idea.

Personally I would recommend a style of kungfu. They still incorporate elements of blending, yet there is more striking involved.

I wouldn't bother with Ju-jitsu too much unless they tend to blend - it will develop bad habits for your aikido and may be very frustrating. Go to another martial art to learn specific things (IMO ju-jitsu is either just like aikido, or is a much poorer 'version' of aikido)

Personally I would recommend going to a striking art that incorporates pressurepoints (and maybe a few kicks), and learn how to kick and strike effectively. Then give it up and do more aikido training (kicks and strikes can be practised alone, aikido never can).

Dominic Toupin
11-29-2004, 10:21 AM
[QUOTE=Ian Dodkins] IMO ju-jitsu is either just like aikido, or is a much poorer 'version' of aikido.

You are not right on that one. Ju-Jutsu is not a much poorer "version" of aikido. In facts it's a different approach with the same technique. It's very complementary to aikido because of the use of good sticking technique.

I'm a better aikidoka because of ju-jutsu and vice versa

Mark Balogh
11-29-2004, 11:08 AM
Daito Ryu Aiki Ju Jutsu definitely, Bagua maybe. :)

Brian Scott
11-30-2004, 01:25 PM
From personal experience, most other styles will eventually work with aikido, however, this process will generally take a long long time to be fully integrated. I studied full contact karate for ten years before starting aikido. It seemed like it took most of my innitial three of aikido years to unlearn habits aquired in karate that did not work well for aikido. Now after 14 years of aikido, things feel integrated, but I really never think about having those type of skills, I just practice regular old aikido and love it. I think part of this difficulty in integration was that my karate skills were far from what a trully "developed" karateka would have. So in other words, trying to integrate by dabbleing in other arts is a noble theory, but in practice it takes just as long to aquire real developement in other arts as it does in aikido.

It is nice to know a few kicks and whatever, but most people I have trained with who believe they have some skills from other arts are actually fooling themselves. I am a firm believer in long term dilligent, focused study under a good teacher. Anything else is really just a distraction.

P.S. Hi Jun, hope to see you soon,

sincerely, Brian from Mt. Tam dojo

Dominic Toupin
11-30-2004, 02:10 PM
Mr. Scott,

Are you telling me that training in three martial arts in one time is not good for me that I fooling myself integrated ju-jutsu and karate in aikido ? I think that you don't get it! I'm definitely better in aikido because of my background in karate and my training in ju-jutsu. If you are curious, look at http://www.yoseikan.asso.fr/doc/martial.php

Nick P.
11-30-2004, 03:49 PM
Mr. Scott,

Are you telling me that training in three martial arts in one time is not good for me that I fooling myself integrated ju-jutsu and karate in aikido ? I think that you don't get it! I'm definitely better in aikido because of my background in karate and my training in ju-jutsu. If you are curious, look at http://www.yoseikan.asso.fr/doc/martial.php

Dominic,

I think that all previous entries somehwere said "in my opinion"; it's like arguing that I like the color red. You may think I am crazy or an idiot, but the fact remains it is my opinion (like certain body parts, opionions are something that everyone has one of).

From the link...
"Cela la rend accessible tous, quel que soit l?ge ou le handicap, laissant chacun le choix de sa pratique." = Making (Yoseikan Budo) it accessible to all, regardless of age or handicap, leaving each the choice of what to practice.

The key word there is choice. Choose whatever suits you (and if it's everything, then it is everything). Nowhere on the site did I find a reference to "To be complete, you must practice it all".

Rocky Izumi
11-30-2004, 04:38 PM
Personally I would recommend going to a striking art that incorporates pressurepoints (and maybe a few kicks), and learn how to kick and strike effectively. Then give it up and do more aikido training (kicks and strikes can be practised alone, aikido never can).

And I personally prefer a few Guinness Furikaburi that gets me in the spirit for a good Irish (Liverpudlian, if you are British) Kiss to the nose. I can practice that after the Aikido workout and it doesn't take away from my Aikido practice but only enhances it.

Just for you Ian!

Cheers!
Rock

Brian Scott
11-30-2004, 06:42 PM
Mr. Scott,

Are you telling me that training in three martial arts in one time is not good for me that I fooling myself integrated ju-jutsu and karate in aikido ? I think that you don't get it! I'm definitely better in aikido because of my background in karate and my training in ju-jutsu. If you are curious, look at http://www.yoseikan.asso.fr/doc/martial.php

Dominic, I didn't say you are fooling youself, and please don't take my opinion personally. Nice website on your dojo. It looks fun.

My opinion is only my own, but it is based on over twenty years experience in japanese martial arts. I study aikido exclusively now because my time is limited because of my profession, and my family. Also, I study aikido exclusively because even after 14 years of aikido I still have so much to learn that I feel anything else would just distract me and limit my true growth in this wonderful art. People grow in different ways though, so more power to you if you are getting what you need.

Good luck and train hard

Brian

Robert Cheshire
12-15-2004, 12:29 PM
From the link...
"Cela la rend accessible tous, quel que soit l?ge ou le handicap, laissant chacun le choix de sa pratique." = Making (Yoseikan Budo) it accessible to all, regardless of age or handicap, leaving each the choice of what to practice.

The key word there is choice. Choose whatever suits you (and if it's everything, then it is everything). Nowhere on the site did I find a reference to "To be complete, you must practice it all".

Nick - you have described exactly what the Mochizuki family says about training in Yoseikan Budo. You can learn parts or the whole thing. Hiroo Mochizuki states that Yoseikan should be a life long learning experience. Even with that he does not say or expect everyone to learn the complete style.

Dominic - I'm like you in the fact that I like it all and want to learn it all!

:ai: :ki:

Michael Neal
12-15-2004, 01:19 PM
Judo

spinecracker
12-15-2004, 04:55 PM
I have done some training in various martial arts (Aikido, wado ryu karate, judo, tai chi, etc), and I found that I improved my aikido by sparring with karate students, judo students, etc. It is very humbling to be applying what you think is a good kote gaeshi when the other guy grabs your legs and sits you on your butt. It definitely helped with distance and timing, and it was an opportunity to appreciate the finer aspects of other martial arts (especially when my sparring partner was kind enough to remove his foot from my groin......). The main aspect, for me at least, is that the sneaky beggars will attack in all kinds of ways, giving me an opportunity to see how wonderfully aiki techniques are able to adapt to more than just basic attacks. Of course, I do spend some time having to pick my teeth up off the floor :freaky: :D

Rocky Izumi
12-15-2004, 05:10 PM
Hey, no one mentioned Kendo here so I will. Kendo rocks! Or is that Rock Kendos? Uh. Punch drunk again. Missed the rum with El Frente Cubatero this afternoon.

Rock

kironin
12-15-2004, 05:44 PM
how about Kendo just hurts.

unless you are an 8th dan.

I prefer iaido.

Keith_k
12-15-2004, 06:23 PM
IMHO
I would say a good ground fighting art (Judo, BJJ, or even wrestling) would be the best compliment to aikido because it covers that area that aikido is lacking in.

Chris Raywood
12-15-2004, 08:10 PM
Chris,

You may want to take a look at what O'Sensei was working on during the 1930's and 40's known as Aiki Budo. I have not done any study whatsoever, and therefore not an authority. However, there may be some variations to your current study that are worth looking into.

Good Luck!

Chris

PS Definitely agree with Mark Balogh on Daito Ryu. Absolutely devastating!

Rocky Izumi
12-15-2004, 09:17 PM
how about Kendo just hurts.

unless you are an 8th dan.

I prefer iaido.
Craig,
I thought you were joining us Aiki-Penitents!??? Pain is good. It tells you that you are still alive and suffering.
Rock

Rupert Atkinson
12-15-2004, 11:23 PM
If you want to get better at Aikido - learn some Judo. It's tough, hard work, but you get what you earn.

If you want to learn strikes to incoporate into it, learn Wing Chun. It is easy to pick up and the principles fit really well. Beware of teachers who teach too slowly - a keen student can learn a LOT in a year - but it just depends how much the teacher holds you back. WC is easy to learn.

Matt Molloy
12-16-2004, 05:12 AM
Hey, no one mentioned Kendo here so I will. Kendo rocks! Or is that Rock Kendos? Uh. Punch drunk again. Missed the rum with El Frente Cubatero this afternoon.

Rock

I'll second Kendo. Extremely enjoyable and gets the reactions up.

Wing Chun to add a bit of striking and arm sensitivity.

Cheers,

Matt.

Rocky Izumi
12-16-2004, 08:42 AM
I'll second Kendo. Extremely enjoyable and gets the reactions up.

Wing Chun to add a bit of striking and arm sensitivity.

Cheers,

Matt.

Kendo is pretty good for striking technique too. One of my Kendo students, about 15 years ago went to see his Tae Kwon Do instructor just before taking his 5th Dan test. HIs instructor and he were sparring and the student was doing a Kiai with every strike and standing in a more linear stance than he used to. The teacher stepped back and asked the student what he had been doing. The student apologised and mentioned that he had been studying Kendo. The teacher said back to sparring and proceeded to beat the crap out of the student using only shomenuchi and yokomenuchi against everything the student threw at him. As the teacher bowed off to the prostrate student, he pointed to himself and said that he had 5th dan Kumdo -- keep practicing. The student came back to me a week later and he had bruises all over his body and face. He said for the rest of the three days, his teacher wouldn't use anything other than shomenuchi or yokomenuchi on him, wouldn't even throw a kick, and beat the living daylights out of him. I guess the last words before he left his teacher was: "If you want your next grading to go better, you better improve your striking abilities through your Kendo practice." The student came back to me the day after getting back and wanted another extra day of practice a week. I obliged.

Rock

PeterR
12-16-2004, 10:18 AM
One of the hardest bodies I ever hit was a kendo guy. And I concur about strong attacks.

Bronson
12-16-2004, 10:28 AM
If you want to get better at Aikido...

Do aikido.

Bronson

p.s. Sorry Rupert, it was right there :D

Bronson
12-16-2004, 10:32 AM
If kendo is unavilable you could try western fencing. It will help to build fast reactions and the ability to read small differences in your opponents posture (plus a bunch of other stuff of course :) )

Bronson

PeterR
12-16-2004, 10:37 AM
Touche' Bronson

Aikido training can hold back your Aikido. It all depends on the dojo. It also depends on how often training is available.

It is possible to select another endeavor specifically for its benefit to your AIkido training. In my case I choose Judo.

lenna
12-16-2004, 10:49 AM
I don't understand, I thought that in Aikido the idea was to avoid confrontations and to hurt your attacker as little as possible. Why then if you study primarily Aikido would you want to study an art with the purpose of beating each other up. I struggle with the desire to want to know how to 'properly' punch and kick but that is an aggressiveness that I thought in Aikido should be oppressed. I don't know if I am making sense but can someone explain this to me?

PeterR
12-16-2004, 11:02 AM
Hi Collen

Ueshiba M. did say there was no attack in Aikido but in the same interview he goes on to say there is no defense. One interpretation is that the two are one and the same. The first technique in Budo (written by the founder) has tori initiating a technique. The idea of seizing the initiative (sen no sen) is well known even though most Aikido is practiced as reactive (go no sen).

I really don't know much about Wing Chun but Kendo, Judo and western fencing certainly are not about beating people up. I suspect a Wing Chun practitioner would say the same thing. Please don't take this wrong but the idea you expressed in this regard is very arrogant thinking - it implies a sort of moral superiority which is just plain wrong.

PeterR
12-16-2004, 11:15 AM
Collen

Just a quick addition. I think there is a clear difference between going out and looking for trouble (an aggressive mind set) and what happens once it has found you.

Bronson
12-16-2004, 11:15 AM
I really don't know much about Wing Chun but Kendo, Judo and western fencing certainly are not about beating people up. I suspect a Wing Chun practitioner would say the same thing.

At our aikido dojo we have a hachidan in Uechi-ryu karate. I've seen various demo's from him and his students over the years...they do a lot of rough stuff. If you were to ask him if the purpose of Uechi-ryu karate was beating people up, I'm positive he'd say no (he might even laugh :D )

Bronson

PeterR
12-16-2004, 11:19 AM
If you were to ask him if the purpose of Uechi-ryu karate was beating people up, I'm positive he'd say no (he might even laugh.
And then in true Buddhist fashion - they would chastise the unrepentant. :D

I like your signature quote very much. Colleen - please read it.

Bronson
12-16-2004, 11:21 AM
Touche' Bronson

Agreed Peter, I was just having a little fun...sheesh...lighten up :D

Bronson

Bronson
12-16-2004, 11:22 AM
And then in true Buddhist fashion - they would chastise the unrepentant. :D

But the unrepentant wouldn't realise it until they regained consciousness with a big knot on their head ;)

Bronson

PeterR
12-16-2004, 11:33 AM
Agreed Peter, I was just having a little fun...sheesh...lighten up :D

[tries to find a smiley that denotes super-serious]

My first martial art was western fencing and I am convinced that my utter genius with a tanto during randori comes from there - ok maybe just my fear of getting grabbed. It's a great sport - I preferred saber but in the end lost interest for the same reason Aikido keeps me going. The variety of technique and expression.

Bronson
12-16-2004, 02:16 PM
My first martial art was western fencing

It was my second, tai chi was first :D One thing that I feel I got more from fencing than anywhere else was the ability to go from 0 to 60 instantly. From no movement to fast movement without having to "cock the gun" so to speak. Interesting thing is that in the style of aikido we do the reverse ability is needed. We need to go from solid extension to fluid relaxation instantly. The skills learned in fencing have greatly helped in this...after all it's the same thing just reversed ;)

Bronson

p.s. Still....lighten up....sheesh :D

Rupert Atkinson
12-16-2004, 06:22 PM
Bronson - you may be right ...

Colleen - I think you are on a pacificst track - nothing wrong with that at all - but too much of a good thing can get you down sometimes :)

Peter - Where Aikido preaches defence, Wing Chun practices offense. For some, that may be a clash of philosophy, but for me, I just like stuff that works.

Natasha Bradley
12-17-2004, 03:33 AM
My husband told me he did western fencing when we first met... and that's when I really fell for him. Mind you, he hasn't done any since we got to together. Now he does Kendo, and his strikes are really strong.