Scared Sempai

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[Dario Rosati]

Hi all,

just a tip to handle a strange situation.

It seems that one of the sempai in my dojo is so unwillingly scared during practice (of hurting himself, I presume) that even if he's better than we kohai as nage, he absolutely sucks as uke... and training with him is extremely frustrating, even people two rank lower have better commitment and attitude in uke role.
He often stops in midlle of tecniques "scared by his own shadow" as we say here... or becomes as rigid in movements as a titanium bar because "sorry, I saw something coming behind my back, stop and restart", or goes forward completely alone in the tecniques (falls or taps even before we begin doing something with his wrist/arm/keikogi).
This often leads to me (and others) begging him to change role and forcing him to be nage all the time, hoping that sensei calls uke change asap...

I've read in other threads that "pushing the limits" or using atemi may be a viable solution, but trust me, this will surely lead to severely hurt him and make the things even worst, from his perpective...

Do you think speaking of this with sensei may help him change attitude? Or may/shall we avoid him on the mat?
Many of us tried with irony ("Hey! You look scared to death by a 6th kyu, mom will not be proud!" or "Hey, did a ghost touch you, because I didn't!") but to no avail, it seems this is a natural and inconscious behavior for him.

I've thought that this should be normal with a kohai (I, as first, sometimes get unwillingly "harder" when training with yudansha guys), but not a sempai!
Or is this a more common situation than I thought?

Thanks!

[SeiserL]

IMHO, this is more common than people what to admit. Physically training does not necessarily take care of the mental/psychological fears. This may be an opportunity to you to practice compassion and learn to enter, blend, and throw some one very gently.

[Tom Kaluzynski]

I would advise compassion. Although it may be frutstrating to you, you never know why someone is so fearful. To this person, taking ukemi, letting go is scary. We all have our weak spots, no matter how senior, or how junior, so try compassion. You just don't know how he feels. For one person, taking ukemi, or aikido is easy. To another, it's the scariest thing in the world.
It can be frustrating, though. That's what is so good about aikido, the encounter is always a challenge, and there are so many levels, not just skill in the challenge.

[rachel]

I think that you (as a fellow dojo member), should be patient and do your best to help this person learn to fall with less inhibition. I agree also, with what others have said, this a great opportunity to practice gentle Aikido and compasion. There is no reason to think that isn't appropriate, just because he is sempai. You can both learn from this situation. ;)

[Jordan Steele]

In my experience he is probably not actually a good nage either. It is impossible to be a good nage without being a good uke. This situation sounds like a major pain. He will most likely not change as it sounds like he has weak spirit. Just try and avoid training with him and when you have to, don't give up your full uke abilites to someone hat won't return the effort.

[Miguelspride67]

You should all practice Proyections and big falls with him. tht will calm him.

[Dario Rosati]

Thanks all, we'll try to focus on timing/taisabaki and proper distances/posture when practicing with him, rather than speed, kuzushi and ukemi... maybe this will soften the problem on both sides.
After all, I suppose this is one of many discoveries awaiting for me (we) during the loooong path to "yudanshaship" and beyond... this is probably a distortion caused by low ranked people training often and hard, vs high ranked people training seldom... different purposes, feelings and objectives in daily practice lead to different aikido application, (almost) no matter the rank, it seems...

Infact, it's becoming apparent to me that, no matter the rank, the dojo is clearly splittable in two sides... those who think skipping a lesson or a seminar is a great pity and strive to become better every ten minutes they train, even risking some pain here and there, and those that simply enjoy the sparsed lessons they take, almost never attend seminars, and never putting themselves on the stake, maybe risking an harder fall or an aching arm... but both enjoy what we're doing.

Is it so everywhere? I think I can guess the answer...

Bye!

[Rupert Atkinson]

Errr, sounds to me like he is not your sempai at all, except in name. Yes, such is commoner than you might think. The source of the problem is the grading system - how did he get where he is? To solve it, someone needs to make him aware of his own problems.

[maikerus]

I would advise compassion. Although it may be frutstrating to you, you never know why someone is so fearful.

Tom...good response.

I came across this thread yesterday before there were any responses and didn't know what to think.

I could see the frustration.
I could see wanting to help, somehow. To do something.
I could see wanting to avoid the person.
I could see telling them to push through it and not to be a wimp.

I didn't think of the fact that their fears were something I probably wouldn't be able to understand even if they were willing to share them.

Compassion. Good point. Thanks for helping me see what should have been blindingly obvious. Sometimes you can't *do* anything...sometimes you just have to be.

Thanks,

--Michael

[raul rodrigo]

In my experience he is probably not actually a good nage either. It is impossible to be a good nage without being a good uke. This situation sounds like a major pain. He will most likely not change as it sounds like he has weak spirit. Just try and avoid training with him and when you have to, don't give up your full uke abilites to someone hat won't return the effort.


To avoid training with someone because of his bad ukemi would be, to my mind, self-centered and a hindrance to your own practice. Perhaps such a person is a pain to practice with, but then again, maybe so were we when we were mudansha. If others avoided us then, we wouldn't have improved. "Weak spirit" can be corrected. Who are we so say that someone is beyond our help or not worth our compassion?

[raul rodrigo]

To my mind, there are only two valid reasons to avoid training with someone. One, his practice is unsafe and could break an elbow or whatnot. Second, bad breath or body odor. I've done suwariwaza kokyu ho with guys whose exhalation alone would get the job done.

[PeterR]

I'll be the first to admit being terrified of some ukemi even though I'm not that bad performing technique. Over time my ukemi skills are improving. I think its very common that the rate of skill improvement of different aspects of Aikido are different.

Sempai is not sensei, and sensei is not master of the art. We all have something to work on.

[bleepbeep]

consider it a learning experience.a work in progress and in process. how to still do the technique with him as uke, and also to allay his apprehensions. it may take some time, but nothing really good ever comes easy.

[Jordan Steele]

My point is that I would not give up my body 100% and give my nage everything I've got if he/she doesn't at least try to put themselves on the edge. I specifically look for people to train with that are going to work hard not only for me but for themselves.

[GaiaM]

My point is that I would not give up my body 100% and give my nage everything I've got if he/she doesn't at least try to put themselves on the edge. I specifically look for people to train with that are going to work hard not only for me but for themselves.

I practice giving 100% to each person I train with for my own learning and theirs. To do otherwise does not benefit anyone or the general feel/energy of the dojo. My sensei (whom I respect immensley) often takes ukemi for students and I believe this is one of the best ways to learn. A student's own technique improves when they feel good, connected, ukemi in response, whether from sensei or sempai or kohai.

It is important to remember that everyone has a different background and this person might have very good reasons (physical and/or emotional) that make it difficult to take ukemi. Please be compassionate (I agree, great word choice) and don't avoid him on the mat. See it as a learning opportunity for yourself and a chance to benefit a fellow student as well. Of couse, make sure you also train with people who have great ukemi, because they will also help you to advance.

Gaia

[Amassus]

My sensei calls Aikido, the Art of Compassion. By this he means that you can choose the level of compassion by which you deal with a situation.
You may choose to be very compassionate towards your drunk uncle when he swings a punch and blend with his attack resulting with him being gently lowered to the ground and held.
You may show less compassion towards a thug in the street that is trying to rob you. You take him down in a more severe manner.
You may show little compassion towards a knife weilding maniac that is intent on your death. You do what you must to deal with the situation safely. This could mean serious injury to your assailant.

Taking a step back and looking at the original post. This thinking still applies. The 'awkward' uke must be dealt with a high level of compassion. Remember tenkan, look from his position before letting your frustration cloud your judgement of the guy.

Bascially I used a long winded way of saying I agree with Tom's comment above.

[giriasis]

Learning ukemi, for me, has been significantly more challenging than learning the waza and being nage. I've been in the position of the "bad uke" in that I wasn't just fearful of ukemi, but petrified to the point that I just couldn't do them. Period. I put 100% into my training but whenever that mental block sprang up I would just stop and ask to roll. I could see the frustration in my nage's, yes, even juniors', eyes because I had to train less intensely with them. It was very embarrasing because all you want to do is to be able to take that fall but some how you just CAN'T. In that moment of time, it wasn't a matter of will just a matter of fact. (So it's NOT a matter of WON'T.) As a result, many who wanted to train hard (and usually my junior) would avoid choosing to train with me or choose to train with me to take a break. Either way such an idea hurt.

Now, after about 5.5 years, I hardly mental block on taking ukemi these days and I still strive to learn the harder falls like from iriminage and jujinage. It has been a struggle for me to learn to roll without mental blocking, then to roll quickly, then roll with a break, and then breakfall. Over the years, I have progressed up that long hard steady path of being able to train hard and take the falls. For example, only this past year have I been truly comfortable with koshinage breakfalls. Having a compassionate sensei AND training partners has helped me get past these hurdles. Otherwise I don't think I would have stuck with it.

I think what you have to remember is that not everyone "gets" taking ukemi as naturally as some appear to do. Some people don't have the trust in their bodies to do the work, some are not fit enough, and some are just physically limited. We each have are own personal challenges in aikido and perhaps taking ukemi is his.

[aikidocapecod]

There could be any number of reasons for the fear. And though that may not seem valid to some, to others it may be valid.
This person may have others, outside of Aikido relying on him for daily support. If he were to be injured in such a way that being the provider may be put in jeapordy, many would suffer perhaps.
Possibly this person has been hurt before. And the memory of pain is not one easily overcome. The brain has a way of remembering these things.
Or perhaps your assesment is correct. Perhaps this person is just afraid of getting hurt.
Andwhen it is your turn to practice with this person, it is your duty to see this person does not get hurt.
Just my opinion

[ruthmc]

I agree with Anne Marie. Some people really do have a hard time with learning ukemi - I am another one!

These days I teach basic ukemi to the beginners at my dojo. I'm a good teacher because I understand the process, the fears, the frustrations, and the physical difficulties. I break it down into chunks so that my students don't have too much to take in at once. We do exercises designed to help strengthen and co-ordinate the muscles and body parts required for ukemi.

But I think that the real reason I am a good teacher is because I encourage my students and have quiet confidence in them and their abilities. I believe that each student is doing his or her best and I treat them accordingly. This is a great gift to give to someone and it really helps them to improve.

In the 'bad old days' when I was a beginner, I was ridiculed, humiliated, made to feel incompetent and weak, and avoided by others who felt that I wasn't worth training with. I will not tolerate any of my students having to go through this as I know what it does - it makes your ukemi about 100 times worse than it should be.

Understanding and respect are the keys, compassion is the way.

Ruth

[aikidoc]

Perhaps there are some other issues here: health problems, prior serious injury post traumatic stress; former abuse as a child, etc. As pointed out, not every adapts to taking ukemi easily.

[Tom Kaluzynski]

Thanks Michael, I am glad that you "got" my comment. The personal experience I had was with my training partner going into some sort of breakdown while training, shaking, screaming etc. Come to find out, the guy had been in Vietnam and had some horrendous experiences which in the training situation (tanto dori) came out and it was really intense. Before this, I was judgmental and like one poster said, had the attitude, hey I give 100% so you should too, etc. Young guy stuff.
I still get annoyed with training partners, and definitely get issues etc. but I try to also practice compassion in the sense that I don't know what they have been through, and though the example I give is extreme, you just never know what someone's experience has been.It really does help to think that, somehow.

[Dazzler]

In my experience he is probably not actually a good nage either. It is impossible to be a good nage without being a good uke. This situation sounds like a major pain. He will most likely not change as it sounds like he has weak spirit. Just try and avoid training with him and when you have to, don't give up your full uke abilites to someone hat won't return the effort.

still think the guy has a weak spirit?

When are we all ...including me...learn not to make snap judgements about people based upon a few words on a website?

When training you can learn from everyone...the super achievers and the most awkward partners.

From the mr.puniverse to the bodybuilding hulks.

Who's to say whose the strongest mentally? the greek god who never had a problem in his life, been to the right school and daddy pays the bills....or the emotionally traumatised eternal victim who despite everything still makes an effort to confront their fears no matter how hard they find it.

Whos shown the most spirit simply walking onto the mat?

Before criticising someone as having a weak spirit take a look in the mirror.

D

[racingsnake]

From the brief description, it sounds like part of the problem could simply be a general one of 'zanshin' and all-round awareness of what's happening on the tatami. I have certainly had moments of hesitation on a crowded mat, one one occasion being reassured by an excellent sempai... 'don't worry about whether there's someone behind you; if there is, I won't throw you there'. It could be that he doesn't feel that same level of reassurance...

So perhaps try simplifying the situation - arrange some training sessions with fewer people on the mat, and build that trust in one's training partners which can be slow to develop and quick to erode.

HTH

[James Davis]

In the 'bad old days' when I was a beginner, I was ridiculed, humiliated, made to feel incompetent and weak, and avoided by others who felt that I wasn't worth training with. I will not tolerate any of my students having to go through this as I know what it does - it makes your ukemi about 100 times worse than it should be.

Understanding and respect are the keys, compassion is the way.

Ruth

Hi, Ruth. :)

Understanding, respect and safety are all very important. My experienced students tend to resent the nights that I want everyone to concentrate on ukemi; I guess it's not exciting enough for them. When my senior students look bored, I'll call them up and throw them a few times to show the importance of good ukemi. The closest I come to "ridiculing" anyone is if one of my senior students minorly botches a roll. In this instance, I'll sometimes say "See? Everybody needs to train for ukemi waza!", and I always say it with a smile.

My newbies aren't high flying aikidoka yet, but their day will come. I try to accomodate students that feel adventurous, but my focus is on everybody leaving the dojo feeling empowered, injury free,...

...and respected by their fellow students.

I'm glad to hear that you run a nice, positive class. :)

[da2el.ni4na]

Whenever someone gave their reason for starting aikido as to become stronger (or something similar), my teacher would invariably ask, what does it mean to be strong? In my mind, this also invoked the question, what does it mean to be weak? I think it is crucial to periodically revisit one's conceptions.

I admit I have not thoroughly read all the posts here, but I saw "100%" several times. Have most people considered that a person described in the original post might be giving 100% already? or that what distresses him would be nothing to you? Do we consider our standards when we encounter a person who doesn't measure up to our standards e.g. of normalcy? And what do we do, how do we handle it, when it is glaringly apparent that we are facing such a person? Leave them alone more? Feel an urge to fix them? Wish someone else would fix them? Feel impatient at ourselves for our lack of acceptance? Formulate a strategy for achieving comfort for ourselves?

I wonder what kind of communication has been made in the given situation? Do you know whether that man perceives your discomfort? Does it matter to you whether he perceives it? Does the teacher, presumably at the least the one person in the dojo who should be expected to take some responsibility for having some degree of relationship with his students, "do" anything about this man's behavior? Although it may feel normal and mature to simply take the situation as it is and deal with it yourself, would it be so foreign or unpalatable to share your (likely commonly held) experiences of this man with him? And in case it is not obvious, I don't mean to say you should simply start scowling and pouting, but behave according to your own ideals which are hopefully at least mature, reflective, patient, etc. - all those things people say aikido practice is about. Specifically, I don't think you will be able to resolve the situation as you see it if you try to do it in a self-contained way, where each person respects other people's autonomy so much that you think it's a no-no to influence others at all.

[Amir Krause]

I would advise compassion. Although it may be frutstrating to you, you never know why someone is so fearful. To this person, taking ukemi, letting go is scary. We all have our weak spots, no matter how senior, or how junior, so try compassion. You just don't know how he feels. For one person, taking ukemi, or aikido is easy. To another, it's the scariest thing in the world.
It can be frustrating, though. That's what is so good about aikido, the encounter is always a challenge, and there are so many levels, not just skill in the challenge.



Most people seem to think of fear as the cause for such problems. Personally, I think of one of the fellow Yudansha in my dojo whom has changed due to very severe health problems. He recuperated to the point he can train, but he is not the same as he was, and he can no longer take Ukemi the same way.

Be very careful in judging a person without having all the facts. He might just be a most courageous person in just appearing on the mat, due to some personal issue you are not aware of.

Amir

[heathererandolph]

It sounds to me as though he has some learned habits that perhaps were appropriate where he used to train? I don't know if you have done this yet, but maybe have a discussion with him to find out about his background and how he sees his behaviors as compared to everyone else. Maybe you will find out some things that enlighten you about "why he is the way he is." If he admits having some difficulties, maybe you can offer to help. You might start to notice very small positive changes in what he is doing. Even your interest could help him feel more relaxed.

For some people, Aikido helps them to overcome their fears. He may have more fears than you do. He may not get to the point of doing a "100% ukemi" but maybe he can improve. On your side: they say the easiest person to change when one person must change is yourself. Aikido is mental as well as physical, so I think you need to learn how to get something out of your practice, even when practicing with someone who is "not perfect." There is a physical giving "100%" but there is also the mental giving "100%." I think worrying about his practice is really impacting your practice, I think you need to take yourself a little less seriously. Your fellow students are not here to help you get the best 100% practice around. My sensei always told me that he could get a great practice, even with a beginner. It takes a little more expertise to do that, but it is a possible goal.

I don't know what level you are, but it sounds as though you think all superiors should be, well, superior. Listen, if we all practice we can all get to the same place, meaning most people get moved up in the ranks eventually. Some people were fortunate enough to have excellent instruction, some were not. You were probably one of the fortunate ones. Thank you lucky stars that you had good instruction, and have some compassion for the poor devil who wasn't so lucky.

With any luck you can keep your students someday from enduring the fate of this poor fellow.

[Peter Goldsbury]

Hi all,

just a tip to handle a strange situation.

It seems that one of the sempai in my dojo is so unwillingly scared during practice (of hurting himself, I presume) that even if he's better than we kohai as nage, he absolutely sucks as uke... and training with him is extremely frustrating, even people two rank lower have better commitment and attitude in uke role.
He often stops in midlle of tecniques "scared by his own shadow" as we say here... or becomes as rigid in movements as a titanium bar because "sorry, I saw something coming behind my back, stop and restart", or goes forward completely alone in the tecniques (falls or taps even before we begin doing something with his wrist/arm/keikogi).
This often leads to me (and others) begging him to change role and forcing him to be nage all the time, hoping that sensei calls uke change asap...

You have been given good advice already, so I will ask some questions:
1. How big is your dojo? I mean, on average how many people during a typical session? How much individual attention is given by the chief instructor?

I ask because in my own dojo I know the individual strengths and weakneses of every single student and have a very good idea of what problems will arise when X is paired with Y. Occasionally, I split the class and have senior students (3rd kyu - 2nd dan) train together.

2. You freely use the terms sempai and kohai as if these were understood by everybody. In my opinion, the only places where these terms are used correctly in the martial arts are the sports clubs in Japanese universities, where the terms have a clear meaning and are understood by everybody. So, are you a kohai? If so, what is your relationship to this person?

3. How much ukemi training do you receive? In my dojo, we spend about 20-30 minutes each class on practising ukemi and we do it in much the same way as the students to in Japanese universities: trips up and down the mat and jumping over people. Those who are frightened, or have other problems, are taken aside and given special attention--even those yudansha whose ukemi skills are not as good as they should be. With such training, people who are frightened have largely overcome their fears, but I know what to expect from each student, in terms of ukemi skills.

[Bridge]

I am all for the compassionate approach.

I'm near the end of a rubbish-ukemi phase and it's probably lasted for well over a year. When I noticed my ukemis were off I started getting tense about it and that made them worse, and it started a vicous cycle. I'm sure people I train with will testify to my totally sidewards mae ukemis when leading with my left foot.

A couple of people at my dojo noticed and helped me out. And it's slowly getting better.

If anyone used irony or humour or criticism, I doubt I would have appreciated it and it may have made it harder for me to work my way out of it. That sort of thing could make people quit altogether.

[KerstineElnegaard]

There are a lot of different things in this thread that I would like to comment on:

First of all, to the people who have told of being "ridiculed" and left out due to learning problems regarding ukemi (that being fear or whatever) - Ouch - that's harsh. I certainly don't like the dojo environment portrayed in those stories. But I am very impressed that you guys kept working on your ukemi under those circumstances.

I come from one of the "ukemi-crazy" dojos, where there was a lot of focus on ukemi, I had a sempai who always preached that ukemi is the main thing to work on until you reach - at least - shodan (ukemi here meaning not just falling, but receiving a technique as well). The point being that you won't be able to "feel" the technique as uke (and arguably - nage) unless you are sure of your ability to receive the technique and not get hurt.

What I have come to appreciate during the few years I have trained, is "that" connection you can get with some people when training. People who give you resistance, but not by tensing up and separating themselves from you. Its hard to explain how it feels like, but I'll try: As nage the technique will feel REALLY heavy if you don't have all the small details right, but it won't feel like your partner is locking you down.
You will feel that your partner is really attacking you, even if you are doing the technique slowly (for me, my brain normally reacts with something resembling " :eek: " the second I realize he IS going for me :) ).
As uke the feeling of connection will come when you're really going for nage (sometimes seeing their facial expression change to :eek: , but that's just the fun part) and then feeling that they have you totally under control through the whole technique.

My experience is, that people who are scared of ukemi, or not seeking that connection with their partner will either:
1) Give a sloppy attack, half hearted and lazy
2) Attack (fast and) 100 % and then tense up and be totally separated from you

If you are on a level where awase really work, I guess it is quite easy to work with scenario no 2, you just blend with the guy before he regains his footing and "locks up". But if you are training kihon and/or is on a lower level (like me) these partners can cause a lot of trouble.

Now back to Dario Rosati: The guy you are describing sounds a lot like a guy I used to train with. He would attack (fx katate dori) and then you could just feel how his whole body would go in "lock down" mode - tensing. This made it quite difficult to get techniques to work, especially since when it came to the part where I was supposed to throw him, he would "disconnect", do a lot of tiny extra steps, and then jump. Me trying to throw him had no effect.
I guess if my technique was better I would be able to take his balance and throw him, so this kind of scenario depends on both uke and nage's skills.

He was scared of falling, and his body responded, my seniors in the dojo told me he had always been like that, ever since he started 10 years ago. Now I respect that people have different approaches to training (and indeed falling technique) I have the utmost respect for people who work on overcoming their fears, people who try to improve.
However I don't have a lot of respect for people who can't be bothered to improve. The guy whom I trained with had never had injuries, didn't have any physical problems, was in terrific physical shape, big and strong. I NEVER saw him working on his ukemi.
I think he was just doing what he had been doing the last 10 years. He didn't come to training to learn, he just came. He had a size that enabled him to chose when and how to fall, unless he was training with really high level aikidoka, and he used it.
Of the mat, I really like this guy, and I would also seek him out on the mat, because his size in itself posed a challenge for my technique.

I don't think the solution to an uke like that is to do the technique fast and hard - not unless you are in total control of what you are doing at least. But doing it slow can be very difficult in light of the "titanium bar" effect.
I still think that the solution is to learn to create a connection with your training partners. I have met a few people whom I'm almost certain could get a connection with a log of wood, seriously!


On a side note (even though this post is WAAY to long already :confused: ) I find it interesting that so many people talk about always attacking 100 %
I would claim that it is very seldom that people attack 100 % with certain attacks such as shomen and yokomen uchi. I personally only do that if I'm training with people at my level or my seniors, and still only if I have a certain level of trust in my partner.
I do however always try to make committed attacks which meets the level of my partner.
Now attacks such as kata dori and katate dori I will always hold "100 %" at the beginning, and then loosen up if my partner seems incapable of doing the technique.

Anyways sorry about the lenght of this post, I'll shut up now :D

[Ron Tisdale]

I actually thought that last long post was a very good post...I may try to pull some specifics out to talk about, either here or in a new thread. But gotta run do a little work now...

B,
Ron

[Basia Halliop]

Something I've noticed with other skills (eg learning something new in school, life, making decisions, etc) that I've started to think seems to apply (to me at least) in Aikido too:

It seems like in a lot of things there's sort of an optimum level of short-term challenge... too easy, and you might sort of stagnate and not really get better. Just kind of get in a rut.

It seems like sometimes you progress best when there is something just a bit ahead of your skills, and you can see it, just out of reach, and you can kind of stretch for it. Being pushed at this level seems like it really helps.

BUT, if the immediate challenge is too far ahead or in a new direction (BTW I'm talking on a 'reaction to stimulus' time scale, not a weeks or months or years timescale), there may be nothing in sight for you to reach for, and your muscles (or brain) don't even know what to try to do, and your brain ends up reacting with your most strongly ingrained reflex, which may be totally inappropriate. And, unhelpful though it is, sometimes the body's response (or the mind's even; this works outside of Aikido...) to failure of a strongly ingrained reflex is to try _the same thing harder_ next time. This can be very reflexive and hard to retrain out of yourself.

Obviously I don't know this guy so there could be a million different explanations, but it seems like one possibility is this guy might be in a situation where his ukemi skills aren't up to what people are pushing him and he isn't able to react quickly enough with safe body positions, so his body falls back on the basic human self-preservation responses of flinching, etc, or some other semi-instinctive response that worked at some point in the past, even if it doesn't work anymore.

If what you're currently doing just seems to make it worse, maybe there are other things you can concentrate on with this guy like working on precision instead of speed, or whatever. Maybe there's something you don't practice as often with other people... maybe someone you need to practice differently with than with most people could be a positive thing if you use it imaginitively.

Or maybe not, who knows :). But it's only for a few minutes, anyway...

[Jorge Garcia]

If what you're currently doing just seems to make it worse, maybe there are other things you can concentrate on with this guy like working on precision instead of speed, or whatever. Maybe there's something you don't practice as often with other people... maybe someone you need to practice differently with than with most people could be a positive thing if you use it imaginitively.

Or maybe not, who knows :). But it's only for a few minutes, anyway...

This is good advice.

[Lyle Bogin]

A terrified uke is an invaluable tool I think. If you can throw him/her from the beginning to the end of the technique and both feel good about it, you've got something.

[raul rodrigo]

I think Lyle is right. Guiding a scared partner through a difficult ukemi (whether he is a sempai or kohai) is a good test of your sensitivity and ability to make a technique flow. Its not satisfying if you get a kick out of making uke fly, but its very valuable for one's training nonetheless.

[ian]

When I started teaching I asked my chief instructor 'when I'm demonstrating a technique the ukes often resist or change their direction so the same technique cannot be applied' - he just told me to adjust myself to whatever they are doing.

I think the same advice could apply to you. Don't force on techniques that aren't working or even strike him physically. Ideally the 1st moment of the technique is unbalancing, once he is unbalanced, keep him unbalanced and complete the technique quickly and efficiently. (indeed I believe all techniques are unbalancing and then effectively controlling uke's fall - thus resistance is not really possible.

If unbalancing is not possible, it may be that he is not attacking with commitment. If that is the case, don't force a technique on. Just move out of the way (if you have to move at all! Many attacks are so weak and out of sync. you just stand there). Alternatively, just move to the side and do a dummy atemi or push him away. Another alternative is just to slip behind him and choke him out (being gentle). Basically - don't force anything on him. You do a technique because of what he's giving you, not be forcing it on him. If he's not giving you anything, ignore him like his attacks are of no importance.

P.S. often moving behind for a choke (if they are acting like stuffed dummies) produces movement in them as they will try to face to turn you. You can then use this. Don't forget though - the outcome is decided at the moment of contact i.e. if you can - unbalance them first!

Often the fear of being thrown is worse than actually being thrown - after a while they'll just get used to it.

[Dario Rosati]

Woah, two years have passed from the start of the thread, and many months since my last visit here, I cannot believe this thread is still actual... good, it was probably a good argument and quite a common problem :)

First of all, thanks to everyone: good advices all around.
Second, many water has passed under the bridge since then, so it can be interesting to answer now, after many many hours of pratice...


2. You freely use the terms sempai and kohai as if these were understood by everybody.
...
So, are you a kohai? If so, what is your relationship to this person?


To be honest, I used the terms at the time because I thought it was the correct way to point the relation between a less experienced (kohai?) and more exprienced (sempai?) practitioner.
I suppose from your answer that I was wrong using these terms, no more cut&paste from online faqs, I promise :D
At the time the relation was: me - less than a year of practice, him - 2+ years of practice.
Today, me - 3 years, he 3+ - I'm about to "close" the gap since he stopped for 1 year and is lately less constant than me; now we're both 4th kyu.


3. How much ukemi training do you receive?


Usually, one third of the entire lesson.


Those who are frightened, or have other problems, are taken aside and given special attention--even those yudansha whose ukemi skills are not as good as they should be. With such training, people who are frightened have largely overcome their fears, but I know what to expect from each student, in terms of ukemi skills.

Today the problem remain substantially unchanged - he's scared from the environment and some type of ukemi and often interrupts or disrupts tecniques even only for a big "thump" behind his back -, but the real point is, *I* am considering the thing from a new perspective, thanks to the growth in experience and recognizing things (that some of you pointed out in this thread) that I hadn't recognized at that time.

As you and others pointed out,

1) Sometimes there IS a reason why X is paired with Y (a.k.a. "There is a reason HE's the sensei and not YOU!")
2) With guys like him, I can focus on different aspects of the practice more easily (such as posture, direction, equilibrium).

My conclusion after 2 years: I had no clue of many things at that time, I was only an excited new practitioner... now the picture is getting clearer (as many of you pointed out in your advices) and my attitude toward the art and the others completely changed... everything and everyone is worth practicing with, if you "see the cup half filled and not half empty" as we say here :D

Bye everyone!

[ian]

Woah, two years have passed from the start of the thread....

That is so funny! The threads that never die.

[Bridge]

I feel silly for not checking the date on this thread first.

On any other site, we'd have all been flamed for being clueless idiots not checking the date and shame on the person who resurrected it! I mean, it's like 2 birthdays ago!

(Beats self with metaphorical big stick.)