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chrisward
11-17-2004, 05:39 PM
Greetings everyone. I hope this find's everyone well. I have been in Aikido for just a couple of weeks now and I had planned to take BJJ at the same time anyway, in order to learn to protect myself while on the ground, should for some reason I ended up there in an altercation.
Today, I visited a very respected school of BJJ that has one of the top sensei's in the United States. I just wanted to ask a few question's to learn a little more about things and what it's all about. The instructor asked me about my background in the arts and to save a lot of time here I only mentioned that I was a new student to Aikido and I made it very clear to him from the very beginning that should I take BJJ, that I would still remain in Aikido as well. He was very polite but he kind of disappointed me when he said like most arts that it really wasn't very effective from a realistic stand point. He went on to ask me "what would you do in the event for whatever reason, you ended up on the ground with some 250lb bully stradeling you and punching you in the face?" PLEASE UNDERSTAND IN ADVANCE, I know there are probably thousands of you who could give me tons of stories to contradict that, no doubt. But he went on to say that he could put a blue belt of his against any art out there and he would put his money on BJJ everytime, he doesn't care what rank the opponet was from whatever style. He was very polite about it, really, but very confident. And I know some folks are probably thinking Chris this guy is trying to sell his dojo. I'm sure of it, but this guy is NOT hurting financially, so there is more to it than money. Finally, I understand this is an Aikido web site but I am interested in some feedback from the Aikido family that might have some practical insight of BJJ and the comments made by this instructor? Thanks in advance for all of your help...Chris

jss
11-17-2004, 05:53 PM
[QUOTE=He went on to ask me "what would you do in the event for whatever reason, you ended up on the ground with some 250lb bully stradeling you and punching you in the face?"[/QUOTE]

For one thing, in aikdio we do care about the reason we end up in that kind of situation.
:)

mj
11-17-2004, 06:46 PM
I don't care what he says. :)

As for 'how to beat BJJ'....biting their nuts off usually does the job. Or their fingers, or anything else they bring in proximity. Personally I like biting the carotid artery so I can do a 'full connection' kaiten-nage (ude hineri). You have to elevate the leg instead of the arm though...but what the hell, we all make sacrifices for our arts. At least most of us don't wear or condone lycra..that's the important thing.

Bryan
11-17-2004, 07:04 PM
The core of BJJ is ground techniques. The question I always like to ask of grapplers is..."would you take the fight to the ground if your oponent has two buddies standing by, if not, then what does your system offer in those cases? "

I don't plan on focusing on 1vs1 altercations or competitions, so I cross-train in multiple arts...one of which includes ground techniques. Some arts address certain scenarios better than others; besides, why would I want to limit myself to only one perspective? For me, MA training is more about the journey and not as much about the destination. Greatfully, I'll be able to travel the Aikido road long after my body refuses to support my striking arts.

just my perspective

Demetrio Cereijo
11-17-2004, 07:10 PM
I know there are probably thousands of you who could give me tons of stories to contradict that, no doubt.

I would say hundreds, being benevolent.

L. Camejo
11-17-2004, 07:18 PM
Sounds like the typical type of talk one might get when faced with an Instructor of another style who for one feels the need to sell his style's superiority (or at least his own) and secondly thinks that the person in front of him does not know enough about the styles being compared to actually dispel some of the BS he may be putting out.

As far as what one does when on the ground with the 250lb person punching etc .etc. if one sticks to Aikido principles this does not happen and even if it did there are some options within Aikido before the other person gets full advantage to put you out. If it still happened that Aikido did not work, then this is when one goes into grappling and striking from the ground, whatever format it may take, whether Judo, Jujutsu or a mix of unidentifiable things.

But then again, this is why you are visiting his dojo, to learn how to handle the scenario he gave effectively, so it's obvious to me that he is less concerned about you learning something from him and more concerned about blowing his own horn and beating his chest.

He also made sure to put forward a one on one scenario that he knew his blue belt could survive and win to attempt to show superiority. I wonder why he didn't give the scenario of his student or himself against a group of 5 or 6 FMA knife or stick weilding attackers (not saying that Aikido will necessarily deal with this scenario better, but the strength of BJJ is in dealing with one attacker at a time.)

Happily my experience at the BJJ dojos I've visited was not like that. Even when they have been proud of what they do, general respect was there and they knew that no one art does everything well and is effective in all situations. For me though, the Sensei you met would have been left talking and bragging while I walked out the door.

Just my 2 cents.
LC:ai::ki:

Huker
11-17-2004, 07:30 PM
A blue belt against any rank of any martial art?? I think this guy is a bit too proud of himself, regardless of how modestly he puts it. If that were really true, he wouldn't feel compelled to tell you that. Every martial art has its weaknesses and strengths--there is not really a 'best'.

I do love a story about how people say that aikido is not very effective "from a realistic stand point". First off, the mother art of aikido, aikijutsu was a battlefield martial art used by the greatest swordsmen that history has seen. Does that stand for nothing in the eyes of your BJJ instructor?? Second, if I say that squares look like circles "from a realistic standpoint", would you believe me??

Confidence sells--ask any real estate agent, lawyer, or even my landlord. It doesn't mean the person you're talking to isn't full of it.

If you're having problems with 250lb bullies, you should change grade schools because you're probably in over your head.

Huker
11-17-2004, 07:32 PM
Good finish, Larry

Roy Dean
11-17-2004, 07:32 PM
Chris,

Biting nuts, gouging eyes... these are generally very weak mental coping mechanisms for people that don't understand how to achieve positional dominance over their opponent. Such remarks are usually fear based. Believe me, there have been many matches where such things occur, and the "dirty stuff" is not nearly as effective as people believe it to be, especially if it's not trained in scientific/realistic scenarios beforehand. My own BJJ instructor, Roy Harris, has clips where people have attempted to gouge his eyes. Such people get what they deserve, usually a popped elbow...

As for BJJ being put against other arts... well, it does very well. Why? Because it is the premiere groundfighting art. Nothing else is quite as effective IN ITS SPECIFIC RANGE OF COMBAT. On the ground, BJJ is the king. Standing up.. it is not.

Aikido addresses a very specific range of combat. Standing up, striking distance. Aikido is excellent where it is designed to be applied.

Also, there is considerable debate as to whether or not the training methods employed by Aikido are realistic enough to translate into martial effectiveness when there is full resistance by an unwilling and uncooperative opponent. Competition and resistance are discouraged in most dojo's, while almost all BJJ schools have a randori/sparring component to their class that launches people into the realm of applicable skill quite quickly. This is also an extremely humbling part of the training, especially the first year.

I have spent many nights wondering how to employ full resistance sparring into Aikido, and I'm not sure if it's possible given the nature of the techniques and the very small range of motion of a wrist versus the arc of an arm extending or major joint locking out.

That said, after 8 years of training and competition in BJJ, I find the arts almost identical. That's right, the principles, angles, and movements are essentially the same, the only difference is the plane where techniques are applied (horizontal vs. vertical plane), and the aforementioned training method.

You can read about it, talk about it, and mentally conjure a million scenarios, but until you actually FEEL the martial truth of what each art offers, don't make any premature judgements. Even the masters are whitebelts outside of their spheres of expertise.

Best of luck to you.

Sincerely,

Roy Dean

paw
11-17-2004, 07:35 PM
As for 'how to beat BJJ'....biting their nuts off usually does the job. Or their fingers, or anything else they bring in proximity.

LOL! Yeah...that's like saying you could take out any aikido shihan by jabbing them in the eye. Much, much easier said than done.


The core of BJJ is ground techniques. The question I always like to ask of grapplers is..."would you take the fight to the ground if your oponent has two buddies standing by, if not, then what does your system offer in those cases? "

To assume a bjj'er would always take a fight to the ground is like assuming an aikidoist would always use swari waza. If your bjj academy only trains groundfighting, change schools.


Today, I visited a very respected school of BJJ that has one of the top sensei's in the United States.

Name names. If not publically, then send me a private mail. I have an idea who you talked to and can give you some background.

Ultimately, I would recommend not training somewhere because of the "famous" name on the door or the reputation of the chief instructor. If, for whatever reason, the school isn't exactly what you are looking for, find another school.


Regards,

Paul

Chad Sloman
11-17-2004, 07:49 PM
good post, Roy Dean...

I concurrently train Aikido and Judo with our ne waza being taught by a couple BJJ blue belts. I too see a lot of similarities. Remember that BJJ is just ne waza-specialized judo. BJJ people hate it when that's said, but it's true for the most part. This reminds me of a couple good quotes from Bullshido....

"BJJ is Aikido on the ground" -Anthony

"BJJ is just Judo in a thong" -Ronin69

I recommend it though as I see it as a major plus to my overrall training. Ne waza is a lot of fun, and is nice to see where your fight can go after a throw. Sometimes it's like where Aikido ends, BJJ begins.

kironin
11-17-2004, 08:25 PM
there is also the point that BJJ really stretch training time before black belt. (15 years ?) There is blue belt, blue belt stripe 1, blue belt strip 2, ...

You see blue belts in BJJ running schools. I am not even sure there is a rank beyond "black belt", though probably something.

There is BJJ teacher who teaches classes on alternate nights where I teach Aikido, Leonardo Xavier, http://www.leonardoxavier.com/ .
He is in the only black belt in his organization so far.

He has two schools in Oklahoma associated with him (neither has a BJJ black belt yet). Could that be who the school is associated with ?

He is polite and friendly and clearly has nothing to prove.

I like this quote,
"BJJ is Aikido on the ground" -Anthony

some truth in that.

Kent Enfield
11-17-2004, 08:34 PM
First off, the mother art of aikido, aikijutsu was a battlefield martial art used by the greatest swordsmen that history has seen.Huh? On what are you basing that assertion?

Aristeia
11-17-2004, 08:55 PM
Some good comments.
The BJJ instructor is right, one of his blue belts most likely will take out the majority of other martial artists in a one on one "duel" (although perhaps not a judo black belt). But he's still a chump. The reason he's a chump is he's missing the point. No one chooses to train Aikido because it is the best most bad ass fighting style in the world. It's not designed to be that way. It's designed to achieve other goals be they physical or spiritual. Because it's looking to acheive those goals, it's more complex, it's harder.
This is not the same as saying it cannot be a very effective means of self defence.
The fallacy I see alot from BJJ circles (which I train in as well), is the argument "Art X will be beaten by BJJ, therefore Art X has no combat utility".
This simply does not follow. BJJ has specialised in an area of combat that:
A. many other arts have neglected
and B. that is done in a range that it is easier for the BJJ'er to control. By which I mean it's easier to get someone on the ground than it is to stay on your feet. It's easier to close distance than to keep distance.

So yes, it can show up people from other arts. But all it shows is that those arts have a hole in that particular area. What this BJJ guy doesn't get, is that you probably don't care if you can't beat a BJJ'er with Aikido. You may care that Aikido will be useful against the attacks you're most likely to face in a self defence situation. You may care about your ability to get back to your feet if you do fall down (which may be why you are looking to cross train). But to say that a BJJ'er can beat Aikido doesn't mean that there aren't many good reasons to still do Aikido.
Sounds to me like he was over selling when he didn't need to. Particularly when you'd all ready indicated you wanted to do both, and weren't making a choice between the two (a good strategy IMO). He should have been saying "you're going to do Aikido? That's great it's got some similar concepts, and BJJ will help you in areas Aikido doesn't cover and compliment it nicely in other areas". But he couldn't resist beating the drum with the "my art is better than yours" with not a seconds thought about what YOU are actually looking to accomplish. I don't care what the name on the door is, find another teacher. You can learn some great stuff on the BJJ mat, but like any art, you need to find a place that suits you and understands what it is you are looking to get out of it.

Aristeia
11-17-2004, 08:56 PM
I like this quote,
"BJJ is Aikido on the ground" -Anthony

some truth in that.

Lots of truth in that :)

JessePasley
11-17-2004, 09:22 PM
I have spent many nights wondering how to employ full resistance sparring into Aikido, and I'm not sure if it's possible given the nature of the techniques and the very small range of motion of a wrist versus the arc of an arm extending or major joint locking out.

(trumpets please)
One person has a tanto, one person doesn't. Figure things out.


On another note, a blue belt in BJJ actually means something. It takes anywhere from 2-3 year to get one, and that means the person has had 2-3 years of full-resistance randori. A confident instructor means only one of two things: 1) He's only thought about for a long time and has convinced himself, or 2) He's actually competent. I'm voting for the latter.

David Yap
11-17-2004, 09:27 PM
Roy,

Nicely posted. If I may add my two cents.

As for BJJ being put against other arts... well, it does very well. Why? Because it is the premiere groundfighting art. Nothing else is quite as effective IN ITS SPECIFIC RANGE OF COMBAT. On the ground, BJJ is the king. Standing up.. it is not.

Aikido addresses a very specific range of combat. Standing up, striking distance. Aikido is excellent where it is designed to be applied.

IMO, both BJJ and Aikido are defensive rather than offensive in nature. There are hardly any first attack. Most SD type of MA have these three principles: move off the line of attack, off-balance the attacker, and control the attack. In most fights, one would always be brought to the ground if one did not move offline.

Also, there is considerable debate as to whether or not the training methods employed by Aikido are realistic enough to translate into martial effectiveness when there is full resistance by an unwilling and uncooperative opponent.
IMO, this depends on the individual's understanding & skill in the art and that of his/her instructor or teacher. I have seen many MArtists going away from Aikido with the view that it is a fake MA after one or more lessons. Why? Most time, they walk into the wrong dojo where the instructor is 100% mindset on choreographing every moves including on how he or she is to be attacked.

That said, after 8 years of training and competition in BJJ, I find the arts almost identical. That's right, the principles, angles, and movements are essentially the same, the only difference is the plane where techniques are applied (horizontal vs. vertical plane), and the aforementioned training method.

Agreed absolutely.

You can read about it, talk about it, and mentally conjure a million scenarios, but until you actually FEEL the martial truth of what each art offers, don't make any premature judgements. Even the masters are whitebelts outside of their spheres of expertise.

Wow!! You said it like a true MA.

Best regards

David Y

Huker
11-17-2004, 11:42 PM
Huh? On what are you basing that assertion?


History.

CNYMike
11-18-2004, 12:00 AM
..... But he went on to say that he could put a blue belt of his against any art out there and he would put his money on BJJ everytime, he doesn't care what rank the opponet was from whatever style ....

:p I'm pretty sure there are some Jun Fan/JKD people out there who would beg to differ on that point, because they know BJJ and the ground fighting game as well as the standup games. Yes, I said "games," plural. But I digress (although if you can find a Jun Fan/JKD school in your area, that might compliment Aikido even better, and -- hopefully -- if the Sifu is like the Kail instructors I know, you won't get an attitude) ....


..... I am interested in some feedback from the Aikido family that might have some practical insight of BJJ and the comments made by this instructor? Thanks in advance for all of your help...Chris

Well, he has a point about what to do when you're on the ground; that's why you're going to BJJ for, right? Aikido also addresses joint locks and throwsbut from the perspective of standing up. They compliment each other, I should think.

Other than that, the issue for you is, IMHO, will your instructors in Aikido and BJJ have cows if you continue with cross-training? If the answer is no, keep at it. If the answer is "Yes" for either one of them, you have some hard choices to make.

Michael Young
11-18-2004, 12:06 AM
Blue belt in BJJ versus Yagyu Ryu student armed with Katana (the instructor did say any other martial art)....I'm sure the BJJ guy would take him out in a second :hypno: Run from this dojo don't walk. (I'm not bashing BJJ, just making a point)

Mike

Matt Molloy
11-18-2004, 12:52 PM
Blue belt in BJJ versus Yagyu Ryu student armed with Katana (the instructor did say any other martial art)....I'm sure the BJJ guy would take him out in a second :hypno: Run from this dojo don't walk. (I'm not bashing BJJ, just making a point)

Mike

Now that's what I call mixed martial arts! :D

As to the original question. Release Shodothug! (I'm sorry but I really like that cartoon.)

Cheers,

Matt. (Who has had it to the back teeth on this vs that and still thinks that it depends on the person applying the principles and not the martial art.)

rob_liberti
11-18-2004, 02:15 PM
Please have him send his BJJ blue belt to the Takasago Dojo of Shoheijuku in Fukuoka, Japan on Thursday night, and ask for Nishida san. If it proceeds, he'll be expected to sign some papers saying that there will be no legal actions taken due to injury. If you can let me know when to expect him, I'll make the trip and bring a video camera.

I respect ground work very much. I was hoping that this conversation would address the specific tactics used by a BJJ player to set up the shoot. That is where the training should be focused if you are going to go head to head. I asked a friend to set up single and double leg takedowns and it was good training. It left me with a lot to think about and I'd love to hear what other people think.

Rob

kironin
11-18-2004, 02:23 PM
Lots of truth in that :)


except when the focus of training is cage matches and sport competitions and they get them in guard postion and start smacking the hell out of their opponent repeatedly.


but when it's about being relaxed and fluid on the ground. yes sure.

Aristeia
11-18-2004, 02:34 PM
but when it's about being relaxed and fluid on the ground. yes sure.
Which is exactly what the guy on the bottom is trying to do to stop getting smacked in ther face.

Kent Enfield
11-18-2004, 03:27 PM
History.And what history is that? Given that Daito Ryu, the technical antecedant to aikido, in any recognizable form dates from the later half of the nineteenth century, how is it a "battlefield martial art" (or are you using "battlefield" to mean any combat), and which "greatest swordsmen that history has seen" were exponents of it?

When I think of great Japanese swordsmen, none of them are from Daito Ryu. In fact, the only Daito Ryu swordsman I know of is Takeda Sokaku, but when you've got the likes of Takano Sasaburo, Sasamori Junzo, Nakayama Hakudo, and Yamaoka Tesshu as contemporaries, let alone earlier masters like Musashi Miyamoto, Tsukahara Bokuden, Ono Tadaaki, and Chiba Shusaku, none of whom are connected to Daito Ryu, I find the claim that Daito Ryu "was a battlefield martial art used by the greatest swordsmen that history has seen" incredible at best.

Not that what Daito Ryu is has much to do with "BJJ vs Aikido."

Kevin Leavitt
11-18-2004, 03:36 PM
As some of you know the U.S. Army has basically based there combatives program on BJJ. I am currently working with my unit on it (as well as learning it).

Ground work is good, but I have learned a few things and formed a few opinions. Aikido is a principle based art for most part. Doesn't so much concern itself with situational based training. Our Army Combatives program (BJJ) tends to be highly situational in the beginning and it is that way for a reason. (won't waste digits going into it now).

I have gotten good at showing guys reasons why BJJ style submission fighting does not work for all situations, mainly in multiple opponent fighting. That said, it is good for police based situtations and minimal force stuff when you have one on one, or two on one with trying to control someone. (please note these comments are glaring generalities!)

Another observation, so far only one guy out of over 100 guys I have sparred with can beat me with my aikido, aikijutsu background..and he has studied BJJ for many years and is highly skilled. Take away the constraints of the "rules" and "paradigm" he works with and it tilts very favorably in my favor.

You really get on a slipperly slope when you start comparing arts, each one has it's merits and tends to work well within the parameters of it's philosophy/paradigm....removed from that environment things change and this is where we get confused...it is best to go at all arts with an open mind and look at them objectively and find the things in them that work for you!

Huker
11-18-2004, 04:50 PM
Kent:

Please keep in mind that I said "Aikijutsu" not "Daito Ryu Aiki Jujutsu". Daito Ryu Aiki Jujutsu was a style developed from the much older Aikijutsu, which was one of the primary fighting arts of the samurai--who disappeared long before the turn of the 19th century. Being developed for combatting multiple opponents, aikijutsu became an ideal battlefield martial art (a 'battlefield' being a location where two opposing generals would bring there army to do battle).

I say "greatest swordmen history has ever seen" with some historical backing as well. Samurai were well-known for their abilities with a sword. When oversea trade lanes were created in the western world, exploration became extremely important. Four of the biggest seafaring powers in the western world were the Dutch, the English, the Spanish, and the Portuguese. Once conflicts emerged, new routes had to be discovered and new people had to be found to trade with. Now, the Japanese liked their seclusion. For the most part, the only people they traded with were the Chinese, for their silk. When the western traders first started appearing in Japan, things didn't go so well. Many were pirates and gave all four groups a bad reputation. Also, westerners didn't have a very good appearance at the time (they were considered by the Japanese to be barbarians), being all dirty and what not, so many conflicts emerged. Once trade was established with Japan and western influence began to spread in Japanese culture, it was quickly learned that the Japanese had far superior swordsmanship skills than any western country, and also made far superior steel than any western country and the known eastern countries (Damascus was well known for its steel).

As far as the names of swordsmen go, I'm afraid you've got me. I don't know too many. Once again, keep in mind that I said "Aikijutsu", not "Daito-ryu Aiki Jujutsu".

Ellis Amdur
11-18-2004, 11:41 PM
T. Hukezalle's post is fascinating, bearing only one flaw - it is incorrect in almost every particular. Aikijutsu is really not that old a term - it was rather uncommon in use until the late Edo period. It was not a principal present in most schools of swordsmanship - and it definitely wasn't an "art" in itself. The vast majority of ryu not only didn't use the term, but many individuals would have no idea what was meant. In mid-Edo, it was used as a term to denote fitting together techniques (it's used this way in Toda-ha Buko-ryu) or as an interchangeable term for kiaijutsu (methods of psychologically affectings one's own and other's state of mind). It was not a principal of multiple attack and defense.

Secondly, the Japanese were not recognized as pre-eminent swordfighters. They were recognized as pre-eminent, using their weapons, in the context of Japanese style battles using Japanese style projectile weapons at long range and Japanese armor.

Third, the Europeans and the Chinese complained about Japanese pirates, not the other way around. The Wako were infamous as murderous, vicious pirates, much like the pirates in Indonesian waterways today (a friend of mine, who piloted super-tankers, told me that they all kept AK-47s at the ready in south-Asian waters).

Fourth, the Japanese did not like their "seclusion" until the 1600's. The big debate at the end of the 1500's, was whether to expand as a colonial power in the Philipines, or in the mainland. They traded as far as India. Hideyoshi made the grandiose mistake of invading Korea with inferior naval power, and illusions about the power of China. The Japanese forces were depleted and absorbed by a combination of Korean naval power and the Chinese army. They went into seclusion after being defeated - this, by the way after adopting European plate armour and musketry. (BTW- most letters by to Japan from Korea pleaded for guns and spears, not more swords).

Fifth, the Japanese sword is a wonderful example of metallugy. But it was not, even in earlier days, the most superior steel sword (log-on to SwordForum.com regarding this.). Equal, and in different aspects superior, were Wootz steel of India, Damascus steel, and the braided cable Viking swords.

Huker
11-19-2004, 12:56 AM
It is too late for this...

I can't really argue how old aikijutsu is because I am not sure, but I am convinced that it predates the Edo period, which lasted from the mid-17th century to the 19th century sometime. Aikijutsu is based on Japanese sword- and spear-fighting styles. I also do not know what the art was called during, or before the Edo period, but I know that we now call it aikijutsu. If I have used the wrong name for the mother art of aikido, please keep in mind that this does not matter to my point: that the mother art of aikido was designed to combat multiple attackers.

I agree that the Japanese did have archers and that many battles were fought using archers, but the fact is that there were also swordsmen in those armies, as well as spearmen, etc... This predates the influence of guns, which appear in Japan the late 1500s/early 1600s. I beg to differ, but the Japanese were known for their swordsmanship. For a culture that committed their entire lives to perfecting their role in society, I highly doubt that their swordsmanship (an imporant skill of the warrior class) was anything to be scoffed at. On such a large scale, there was no discipline of this kind found in the western continents. With this in mind, it is unlikely that the swordsmanship skills of lets say, the English, were up to par with those of the Japanese.

About your third point, I think you're taking this out of historical context. I am talking about a time when exploration by westerners was still taking place. At this time, when Japan was first discovered by the west, the Japanese had mostly fishing boats. If I'm not mistaken, the Japanese had never seen a galley or a warship up until exposure to western culture. I'm sure the Wako are very fearsome, but with AK-47s, I'm almost positive that they (and their relations with the Chinese and the English) have nothing to do with Japanese swordsmen.

Yes, at one point they must have tried for the mainland. I am not disagreeing that the Japanese ever tried to take more land. I gave a brief chunk of history illustrating how the Japanese came to be known for their swordsmanship. I agree that the Japanese did trade with other countries, but I said for the most part China, not exclusively. About the letters--I don't understand the wording for your statement, could you please clarify it for me?

Katanas were very strong because they were made using folded steel. Whether or not this is unique to Japan, I don't know. I also am not sure whether or not Japanese steel was the strongest in the world at any points in its day, but I am sure that it was 'up there' in quality. Like I said, it has been implied that Damascus steel is of lesser quality than Japanese steel. To my knowledge, the semi-crystalline nature of wootz steel gives the blade a more abrasive texture, but this advantage is sacrificed since the steel itself is slightly more brittle because of it. Viking swords were more of a bludgeoning weapon than a cutting weapon. Their sheer size made them slow to wield. Katanas are shorter, lighter blades, so the tactical advantage alone would make them a superior weapon.

Well, it is almost 2:00am and I'm really tired, so I'm calling it quits. The only reason I'm up this late typing this is because I resent your comment about my last post being "incorrect in almost every particular". Not cool, sounds very arrogant.

bob_stra
11-19-2004, 01:42 AM
Chris (the original poster)

People are people, you know? They say and do things that re-affirm their self image / self worth. To that end, we are all a little blind. IOW - if I haven't seen kickass, 'whoomp' killer aikido - just the light, fluffy bunny stuff - then that's all I know. So my opinions become biased on what I "know". You dig?

BJJ is fabuloso on the ground. It gels nicely with Aikido.

If a BJJ guy can drag you down there, by and large, you are screwed.

*If* he can drag you down there.

Personally, the more BJJ I do (3yrs off and on, to date), the more I like to recommend folks to look into Judo as well. The takedown skills taught to many BJJ'ers are (to be honest) sub-par, whilst the ground fighting is overdeveloped to an extreme. Just IMHO and YMMV.

Mr Fooks -

Still grilling sacred cows, I see :)

How dare you say those things abt BJJ!?! Dare you incur the wrath that is Gichoke's army of atomic supermen! We're everywhere, you know...watching (ok, mostly watching porn, but still...)


Mr Roy Dean

You're one of the luckiest s.o.b's on earth to have Roy Harris as your instructor.

Is there any chance you could convince Mr Harris to let you perform some "aikido-into-bjj" on his (eventual?) BJJ201 v2 DVD? Even as an outtake, or blooper reel?

Aristeia
11-19-2004, 05:28 AM
Mr Fooks -

Still grilling sacred cows, I see :)

Mmmm....sacred burgers....

How dare you say those things abt BJJ!?! Dare you incur the wrath that is Gichoke's army of atomic supermen! We're everywhere, you know...watching (ok, mostly watching porn, but still...)

Well Graps already sent the ninja's after me so I thought what the hey



Is there any chance you could convince Mr Harris to let you perform some "aikido-into-bjj" on his (eventual?) BJJ201 v2 DVD?
Doesn't aikido get a mention during one of those ligh sparring bits on 101?

bob_stra
11-19-2004, 09:42 AM
Well Graps already sent the ninja's after me so I thought what the hey

Ninjas...they'll kill ya five times before you hit the floor!

Doesn't aikido get a mention during one of those ligh sparring bits on 101?

Armbar tapes IIRC. The screen flashes AIKIDO!!!!! AIKIDO!!!! when Roy wristlocks. (you can almost hear the 'neener neener neeener)

Personally, I'm still quietly chuckling over the "never trust a magician who knows jujitsu / watch out for falling coins" bit.

Still...it would be nice to see "BJJ for Aikidoka". Believe it or not there's a "Judo throws for BJJ'ers" tape out there.

roninja
11-19-2004, 11:22 AM
Hmmm... I don't know if anyone has mentioned it, but in Bjj, from the school I studied, and many other schools, it takes about 3-5 (or more) years to get a blue belt, which, in many arts, equals a 2nd or third degree black belt.
As for me I have studied both Aikido and Brazilian Jiu jutsu and I find that my Bjj is far more applicable when I spar, but then again, you have to ask yourself, why is an aikidoka sparring? catching on? I think the frist reply also touched on this. But I remember when i studied brazilian Jiu jutsu there was a guy in there who had studied aikido previously and the guys suwari waza was so good, no matter what I did, I just couldn't keep my grip on this guy.
As for the group of people that I study aikido with (this includes me), I'd say that a bjj player would take the match anyday, supposing that we were only using aikido. I've seen what kind of junk we try to pull of in Randori.
But trying to discredit another art based on the merit of your own art is a bit of bad thing to do. Of course brazilian jiu jutsu may prevail in most confrontations, but have you seen the way that most bjj players get to the ground? the fall straight down or do wrestling style take downs, which hurt a lot more on the street than in the dojo. So why not practice an art that accells in throwing techniques as well? such as judo or aikido.
I know stories were not asked for, but I'm long winded. Take the story of Kimura (the only guy to beat Helio Gracie, thus giving the name to the technique "Kimura", I'm assuming) and Helio Gracie (founder of Bjj). The story has it that Kimura threw gracie relentlessly, and so did the other judo contestants before Kimura (though the other contestants were beaten with ease on the ground).
But if you take the smart side of the thinking of a fight, why would you drag a fight out if you can end it with a throw and get the hell out of there?
But that's why, and I think this would go for many, Aikido and Bjj serve two different purposes for one's life.
I don't study Aikido to know how to "fight" and I don't study Brazilian Jiu jutsu to gain a sense of peace and harmony.
So I'll end with the fact that I have great respect for both arts, those people who really accell in them, and those who don't.
I think that in the end, those who practice the martial arts with all their heart will reach the same destination, despite the style
Tsunezune no
Waza no keiko ni
Kokoro Seiyo
Hitotsu O motte
Yorozu ni ataru zo
Shugyousha no michi

rachel
11-19-2004, 12:42 PM
I made it very clear to him from the very beginning that should I take BJJ, that I would still remain in Aikido as well. He was very polite but he kind of disappointed me when he said like most arts that it really wasn't very effective from a realistic stand point.
I've been studying Aikido for many years. Within the last year, I have been trying other arts to compliment my Aikido training. I tried some BJJ, Judo, Kendo, Karate, and other things. I have to point out however, that BJJ is not a martial art, it is a sport, and it's goal is not self defense, it is submission. I encourage you to try other arts, but any instructor who tells you that what you are studying is not valid, is not a very good instructor. You should never study under anyone who doesn't believe that the more you learn, the better you will become. Try other arts, but never give up Aikido.

bob_stra
11-19-2004, 01:06 PM
Rachel Klein wrote: -

have to point out however, that BJJ is not a martial art, it is a sport, and it's goal is not self defense, it is submission.

Respectfully, I must disagree with that.

http://www.straightblastgym.com/street.htm
http://www.straightblastgym.com/street01.htm

paw
11-19-2004, 01:34 PM
I have to point out however, that BJJ is not a martial art, it is a sport, and it's goal is not self defense, it is submission.

Rubish.

It is the basis for the US Army's modern combative training, and that was previously mentioned in this thread. It is taught to law enforcement agencies world wide.

It is most certainly a martial art.

The only thing I can think of is you may have encountered a school that only teaches the sporting aspect of bjj.


Regards,

Paul

Aristeia
11-19-2004, 03:44 PM
any instructor who tells you that what you are studying is not valid, is not a very good instructor. .

I'm not sure I even buy this.I mean is someone comes to me and tells me that they're also learning yoga for self defence I'd probably raise some questions. The issue here in my mind is the basis on which he challenged aikido.
"We can beat them up so their art is useless" is just not a valid argument.

Aristeia
11-19-2004, 03:46 PM
Still...it would be nice to see "BJJ for Aikidoka". Believe it or not there's a "Judo throws for BJJ'ers" tape out there.
You're not wrong. Hmmm...*looks at camcorder on the desk*, *looks at mats in the garage* hmmm....all I need is...oh yeah, some actual skill in BJJ. bugger.

Kent Enfield
11-19-2004, 04:21 PM
a lot of good stuffNow I'm glad that the computer ate the post I tried to make yesterday. Mr. Amdur came along and did it better, naturally.

Ellis Amdur
11-19-2004, 07:07 PM
To T. Hukezalle - I don't want to hijack the thread, so if there needs to be further discussion, best to start a new one. Sorry about the syntax on one point - (BTW- most letters by Japanese generals from Korea pleaded for guns and spears, not more swords). The samurai "arts" - many of them still exist. I'm a licensed instructor in two koryu and I've view many times, and had frequent consultation with many of the headmasters of the remaining ryu. Aikijutsu never meant multiple attack defenses. It was NOT - never was - a separate art, before Daito-ryu. Yes, there is training in multiple attack fighting, encased in the two person kata. But the claim that the Japanese were better than the English (per your example) or more systematically trained, is also historically incorrect. Early fencing manuals, including the Germanic broadsword texts have both practical and esoteric training, and look so similar to Japanese methods that one might imagine there were cross-overs. The claim that Japanese were regarded as pre-eminent among swordsmen is just that - a claim without historical basis in fact. You are also incorrect in referring to the Viking sword as a bludgeon. The average weight was close to three pounds, only 1/2 to 3/4 pound more than a war katana. They also used methods of folding steel.
Finally, I do not see it as "arrogant" to contradict error. What you wrote does not conform to the facts of history. Again, if this should continue, lets make another thread. This one's supposed to be about BJJ vs. Aikido.

Best

Ellis Amdur

bob_stra
11-19-2004, 11:04 PM
You're not wrong. Hmmm...*looks at camcorder on the desk*, *looks at mats in the garage* hmmm....


Yeah....I was trying for 'subtle' / jedi mind trick.

'These are not your droids'.

rachel
11-20-2004, 01:14 AM
Rubbish. and
Respectfully, I must disagree with that.
Just because it may be a good form of self defense, that does not make something a martial art. I don't think that BJJ is bad, I just think that it lacks many elements of training that are found in what I am referring to as 'martial arts'. And actually, the school of BJJ that I encountered is run a very well known instructor, so I think that I got a fairly good impression of how BJJ really is.
I'm not sure I even buy this.I mean is someone comes to me and tells me that they're also learning yoga for self defense I'd probably raise some questions.
I think that you misunderstand my entire point. Firstly (going with your example) whether you are studying yoga for self defense or another reason, a good instructor should not tell you to stop taking yoga so that you can learn what they will teach. Secondly, yoga does improve self defense skills. Mostly any kind of exercise and movement training will help to improve your Aikido or whatever other style of self defense or martial art that you practice. For example, about 4-5 years ago, I began studying ballet. My Aikido has improved very quickly and steadily from that time. Whether you believe me or not, it's true.
Also, I'd like to tell you about an Aikido student I once knew. He studied Aikido for many years from childhood and was ikkyu when he reached high school. He joined the wrestling team at his school. The wrestling coach told him that if he wanted to wrestle, he had to quit Aikido, so he did. It's a shame because he was very skilled and natural at Aikido. He is likely lost to Aikido forever, but he had so much potential to be a great Aikidoka.

bob_stra
11-20-2004, 06:10 AM
and
Just because it may be a good form of self defense, that does not make something a martial art. I don't think that BJJ is bad, I just think that it lacks many elements of training that are found in what I am referring to as 'martial arts'. And actually, the school of BJJ that I encountered is run a very well known instructor, so I think that I got a fairly good impression of how BJJ really is.


Again I must respectfully disagree.

You are aware that there are "sub styles" / flavours of BJJ beyond the "pyjama clad, slugs fornicating" one sees in some academies?

Just this week I did "Vale Tudo flavour" - we kicked each other, we punched each other, went to the ground, he took me to guard so I stabbed him in the stomach (rubber knife, of course!) and then went to break his foot.

AFAIK - this kind of training is becoming more common. Even in some sports based / gi schools it is offered as an occasional 'elective'.

In any case -with regards to 'sports style' BJJ - we are 100% in agreement.

paw
11-20-2004, 06:28 AM
and
Just because it may be a good form of self defense, that does not make something a martial art.

You'll have to define "martial art", because I'm confused how an art taught for use in military combat, law enforcement, civilian self-defense and various sportive contexts isn't a martial art, while aikido which isn't taught to nearly as broad a group somehow is.

Mostly any kind of exercise and movement training will help to improve your Aikido or whatever other style of self defense or martial art that you practice.

If your argument is that improving athleticism improves self defense, you might have a point, although such an argument doesn't address sport specific functionality nor does it address different energy pathways and muscle fiber use.

For example, it has been demonstrated that aerobic training reduces potential anaerobic power over time because of the nature of muscle fiber, while the reverse is not true. Thus, if "self defense" requires explosive power training engaging in chronic aerobic training would actually decrease someone's self defense potential.

While nearly any exercise is better than nothing at all, exercise and fitness modes are not necessarily complementary.


Regards,

Paul

Michael Young
11-20-2004, 07:29 AM
Ok, it is six O'clock on Saturday morning and I couldn't sleep...I woke up, tried to get back in bed, couldn't sleep, and for some reason this post started going through my head. So, you'll have to forgive me if it is a little bit fuzzy or even slightly rude to a point. We are constantly seeing posts like this on Aiki-web, and other forums...posts questioning the efficiency of Aikido and it's martial effectiveness... and they usually devolve into a diatribe over what is and isn't good about Aikido, why it is or isn't an effective martial art, etc. Just do a quick browse through the general forum and you find plenty of examples. Generally I will hear the (forgive me if this sounds rude) lame "I don't take Aikido to learn how to defend myself" excuse, or the "Aikido is not designed as a fighting art". excuse: i.e.
" No one chooses to train Aikido because it is the best most bad ass fighting style in the world. It's not designed to be that way. It's designed to achieve other goals be they physical or spiritual"

The funny thing is the first statement is usually not the case for why most people start taking Aikido, at least in my general experience. I think most people still walk into Aikido dojo's with the intent of learning a self-defense form, but if they stick with it later evolve to something else. The second statement is true from a certain POV, it would probably be more true to say "Aikido is not designed ONLY as a fighting art"...I think Aikido is definitely designed to deal with fighting though and not just deal with "other goals", but not by dealing with fighting on a fighting level. It transcends fighting. I think I'm getting off on a tangent though because what I really want to address is why I think Aikido is the pinnacle art (uh-oh, I think I'm about to get a firestorm of criticism for that statement), let me state why.

Siritual, etc. practice aside, and addressing the purely martial appplication of Aikido: I believe Aikido can legitimately "defeat" any other martial art out there (another statement I'm going to get slammed for)... if YOU can not do it, it is because YOUR Aikido has not reached that level yet. If you cannot "defeat" the technique of a boxer, it is because YOUR Aikido is deficient. If you cannot deal with the kicks and punches of Muay Thai, Kickboxing, Tae Kwan Do, Kung Fu, Hapkido, etc., it is because YOUR Aikido is deficient. If you open yourself enough to allow a BJJ'er, Greco Roman Wrestler, Judoka, etc. to take you to the ground, it is because YOUR Aikido is deficient. If you get cut by the guy trying to kill you with the knife, it is because YOUR Aikido is deficient. If you are standing there when the guy whips out the gun to shoot, it is because YOUR Aikido is deficient.

Aikido has practical, sound, applicable principles, arrived at through the correct application of years of study, to deal with all of the above situations and more. If there is a deficiency in Aikido, it is its complexity and the many years of practice needed, before the level of proficiency required to deal the above situations occurs ( Another deficiency may be whom you practice under and what training methods you follow..but that is for a whole other inflammatory debate ;) ). You can (and should) go out and cross train in other MA's (I have), but if you are really looking for it, you will find that Aikido is all encompassing and can deal with all of them. Please note, I am not arguing the effectiveness or legitimacy of other MA's, just Aikido's.

Let the slamming begin :D

Mike

L. Camejo
11-20-2004, 09:47 AM
You'll have to define "martial art", because I'm confused how an art taught for use in military combat, law enforcement, civilian self-defense and various sportive contexts isn't a martial art, while aikido which isn't taught to nearly as broad a group somehow is.

Hi Paul,

Just a quick point.

Aikido is actually applied in all the forums you indicated above. Some web links are offered below.

Military Combat & Law Enforcement - http://www.tacticalapplications.com/history.htm , http://www.aikieast.com/deftacop.html

Civilian Self Defence - http://www.aikieast.com/deftacop.html

Sportive Contexts - http://homepage2.nifty.com/shodokan/en/kyogi1.html

The rest of your post I mostly agree with.
LC:ai::ki:

Hagen Seibert
11-20-2004, 10:05 AM
[QUOTE=Michael Young]If you cannot "defeat" the technique of a boxer, it is because YOUR Aikido is deficient. If you cannot deal with the kicks and punches of Muay Thai, Kickboxing, Tae Kwan Do, Kung Fu, Hapkido, etc., it is because YOUR Aikido is deficient. If you open yourself enough to allow a BJJ'er, Greco Roman Wrestler, Judoka, etc. to take you to the ground, it is because YOUR Aikido is deficient. If you get cut by the guy trying to kill you with the knife, it is because YOUR Aikido is deficient. If you are standing there when the guy whips out the gun to shoot, it is because YOUR Aikido is deficient.


Right. Though: In your own accounting of situations you will quickly reach a point where NO-ONES Aikido does work. It´s too easy to just blame the student, and too naive to assume that Aikido can do everything.

Nice to see Ellis Amdur participating in this thread, there is a chapter in his wonderful book "Duelling with OSensei" , the chapter is named "How tough do you want to be when you grow up" basically adressing the subject, worth reading !

regards

Michael Young
11-20-2004, 11:17 AM
Hi Mr. Siebert,

I didn't mean to imply that I was blaming someone if they aren't advanced enough to deal with everything...I'm certainly not. Perhaps my choice of language could have been better, but in my defense, it was 6:00am this morning when I wrote it :o . I'm not sure there is anyone on the planet that COULD deal with everything, we are human we make errors. But the error is not in the principles or techniques of the art itself, they are in the application. My point is that the limitation lies in human beings, not the art. This is true of any MA. Also let me say, if you deal with a Boxer on a Boxer's level, or a Judoka on the ground, etc...no, Aikido techniques probably could not deal with it...however, if an Aikidoka lets it get to that point, they have already failed to apply the principles.
It always seems as if we look at things "bass ackwards" on this forum, in particular, and others. Whenever someone brings up a specific MA, there are a torrent of comments dealing with how Aikido just can't deal with it. I am constantly seeing posts like "How to deal with a boxer's Jab? They are just too fast!" or "What happens when you are taken down by some 250lb BJJ''er?, you'll never be able to deliver atemi or apply nikkyo its all over for you!" etc. etc. There is truth to statments like these, in that I would have to agree that the Aikidoka would more than likely "lose" to a well trained practitioner in any number of MA's when working inside that MA's particular speciality. But let's turn it around for a moment...what is Aikido's "speciality"...controling the outcome of a confrontation from the very first instant, "before it even begins" (katsu hayabi) by complete awareness and connection, then blending with the energy of an attacker (musubi), control the attacker's center and apply whatever technique is applicable while maintainig the connection and control. If just those principles themselves are adhered to then nothing else beats it, does it? A boxer is intent on hitting you, a wrestler on taking you to the ground, a person with a knife wants to cut you, the TKD guys wants to strike...There is a closing of the mind there already...Aikido has none of those things and all of them all at the same time...the intent is not to "do" anything but what is appropriate at the right moment in time. How is this defeatable when applied correctly, what other MA could beat it? There is no technique or principle or art that could, other than to not attack in the first place. The MA of menoconfrontju :D
I'm not naive, like I said I know there may not be a person on the planet who can maintain that awareness and skill level 100% of the time...but that fault lies with the individual not the art. I think too often though, people close their mind to what Aikido is, I'm not just refering to the spiritual and philosophical side of it (although those are completely interconnected with the martial side). The tendency is to think that martialy, Aikido is a collection of techniques, not as all encompassing principles. When viewed as a collection of techniques practiced over and over, then yes, it is a complete joke of a MA that has no real world application and is utterly defeatable by a one year boxing student. The techniques are defeatable, the principles are not though.

Thanks for the reply,

Mike

BTW, I completely agree with you on seeing Mr. Amdur post, it is nice to see someone of his experience giving opinion.

paw
11-20-2004, 05:38 PM
Hi Paul,

Just a quick point.

Aikido is actually applied in all the forums you indicated above. Some web links are offered below.

Military Combat & Law Enforcement - http://www.tacticalapplications.com/history.htm , http://www.aikieast.com/deftacop.html


Hello Larry.

Let me be more clear. While I believe that aikido can be taught in such a way as to have military and combative applications, to the best of my knowledge aikido has not been taught en masse to all soldiers of a branch of military service. Other arts however, have been. Krav Maga, BJJ and SOMBO, for example.

I'm aware that aikido was taught to a group of select soldiers (and really, what art hasn't been taught to a select group of soldiers?) and that this was documented in Richard Strozzi Heckler's book, unless I'm mistaken it has never been the "official" or "standard" hand to hand combative core of any military.


Regards,

Paul

L. Camejo
11-20-2004, 07:12 PM
Cool Paul, I understand your point now. I perfectly agree.

Isn't clarification a great thing?:)

LC:ai::ki:

Niko Salgado
11-21-2004, 05:56 PM
Chris, the BJJ instructor is in part trying to do his "advertising" job to lure you in. Works on little kids, but I was no longer a kid as soon as I started Aikido. At least I didn't feel like it, since I was 14.
I personally don't like those who make the comparison. He speaks as if he knows Aikido.

If I, being close to 250 lbs., had asked him the same thing, he would've said either 350 or 400 lbs guy pinning you to the ground with his body. Then I would've told him if someone that heavy was trying to get me to the ground, I would apply "running-do".. Otherwise, I may sound cocky with this, but I am confident, that if I had to go even 1 on 1 with that BJJ instructor, I know I wouldn't win, I just wouldn't lose. You can apply Aikido to as much as the situation allows you to, but when you're stuck, you just apply the principles to survive.

Anyway, no point in anything I've said previous. But I'll tell you 2 things that sensei's have told me:

1. 7th degree in Judo sensei told me- it's legal to tickle in shiai, still don't know what it could do in a real fight.

2. 6th degree in Aikido- How do you get out of an Aikido technique/pin? If it's not much trouble, pinch, as hard as you can.

A piece of knowledge I came up with is to know that if you are in a fight, the odds are never fair. It's legit to perform unfair techniques if it better suits you. Anyway, I'd say to ditch that BJJ place for its high and mighty attitude, it wouldn't help you as much as a friendly BJJ place would be as far as encouraging other arts.

Chris Birke
11-21-2004, 06:19 PM
To some small extent, BJJ doesn't understand any martial art that doesn't actively and continually throw itself into a cage or streetfight for "testing" purposes.

Aristeia
11-21-2004, 06:26 PM
It's more correct to say they don't understand any art that doesn't functionalise their technique through full resistance sparring - doesn't have to be in the cage or street, or even involve strikes.
What they don't get that there may be good reasons why adding competitive sparring to some arts might be to their detriment.

Aristeia
11-21-2004, 07:11 PM
Yeah....I was trying for 'subtle' / jedi mind trick.

'These are not your droids'.

Hey if someone can supply me with the missing component, I'm all over it.

CNYMike
11-21-2004, 10:49 PM
To some small extent, BJJ doesn't understand any martial art that doesn't actively and continually throw itself into a cage or streetfight for "testing" purposes.

It's worth noting that in a self defense situation, you have two goals -- survival and escape. In contrast, the goals of an NHB match are to win it by knockout, choke, or submission. A slightly different circumstance.

This doesn't mean that BJJ/MMA systems can't work on the street. Of course they can; they have valid point that one should know what to do if you are taken down and someone is on top of you. There are plenty of MMA people who swear by their systems because they worked in real life situation, but pecentage-wise, there may be as many Aikdoka who sweat by Aikido for exactly the same reason.

All an NHB match proves is what works in a NHB match, but with both MMA and Aikido vouched for in self defense situations, NHB matches don't seem to be good predictors of what will and won't work in self defense situations.

Michael Young
11-21-2004, 11:14 PM
All an NHB match proves is what works in a NHB match, but with both MMA and Aikido vouched for in self defense situations, NHB matches don't seem to be good predictors of what will and won't work in self defense situations

Now that is one of the most sensible posts I have seen in this thread, nicely put.

Mike

Aristeia
11-22-2004, 01:21 AM
It's worth noting that in a self defense situation, you have two goals -- survival and escape. In contrast, the goals of an NHB match are to win it by knockout, choke, or submission. A slightly different circumstance.

That may be the goal of a "match" but the goal of BJJ is to dominate position so you can decide what happens next. Be it disengage or snap or nap.

There are plenty of MMA people who swear by their systems because they worked in real life situation, but pecentage-wise, there may be as many Aikdoka who sweat by Aikido for exactly the same reason.

All an NHB match proves is what works in a NHB match, but with both MMA and Aikido vouched for in self defense situations, NHB matches don't seem to be good predictors of what will and won't work in self defense situations.

I disagree. The percentage you allude to is the thing. Take the pool of people that have done 2-3 years of BJJ and attempted to use it for self defence, and those that have done a comprable time training in Aikido and attempted to use it in self defence. I'll bet all the money in my pocket against all the money in your pocket that the success percentages are much higher in BJJ.
But that's ok. That doesn't invalidate aikido. Like I've said before, hands up all those for whom self defence was the only crieteria in choosing a martial art when they signed up for Aikido? Exactly. we sacrifice some things in terms of gaining absolutely reliable SD skills in a short time frame, in return for other things. It's a trade off.
Aikido should not be your number one choice for self defence. BJJ should not be your number one choice for physically practicing a certain philosophy. Depending on the mix of things an individual is looking to get out of training (including Self Defence) Aikido can be the best choice, or BJJ can, or Tai Chi or Muay Thai.....

CNYMike
11-22-2004, 10:54 AM
..... Take the pool of people that have done 2-3 years of BJJ and attempted to use it for self defence, and those that have done a comprable time training in Aikido and attempted to use it in self defence. I'll bet all the money in my pocket against all the money in your pocket that the success percentages are much higher in BJJ....

Maybe. Maybe it's the other way around. Or maybe something else beats out both, so we both "lose" this round. The point is that if every martial art in the world, including Aikido and BJJ, is backed by people who claimed to have used it in self defense situations, can anyone point to different arts and accurately predict what will work and what won't? I don't think so.


..... Like I've said before, hands up all those for whom self defence was the only crieteria in choosing a martial art when they signed up for Aikido? Exactly .....

Self defense is a reason for why people look into all martial arts, including Aikido. In the case of Aikido, some might be attracted by the idea of defending themselves without seriously hurting their assailants. <shrug> That's how it seems to be billed sometimes, anyway!

CNYMike
11-22-2004, 10:54 AM
Now that is one of the most sensible posts I have seen in this thread, nicely put.

Mike

Thanks.

rachel
11-23-2004, 04:52 AM
Wow, I'm so completely unimpressed by so many people here. Just a quick question, if you think aikido is such crap, why do you practice it? I'm assuming you do, you're here...

grondahl
11-23-2004, 05:32 AM
Wow, I'm so completely unimpressed by so many people here. Just a quick question, if you think aikido is such crap, why do you practice it? I'm assuming you do, you're here...
Who has said that aikido is crap?

rachel
11-23-2004, 05:39 AM
No one has flat out said that Aikido is crap, but a few comments have treated it as such. I just don't understand why people would train in an art that they don't believe in.

happysod
11-23-2004, 06:20 AM
Recognising aikido may have some "holes" in it's arsenal isn't saying it's crap, just standard critical thinking. Most people have indicated they find aikido useful, just have their own ideas on its best use, distance etc. The only direct negative comparison I read was concerning training methods rather than the actual arts themselves and it's probably justified. Many threads have said aikido's for the long haul...

I've also yet to read that anyone claims BJJ is the complete martial art to take either. Most who are looking for that "complete fighter" profile generally cross-train anyway.

Michael Young
11-23-2004, 09:36 AM
Here are some questions for those of you that do cross train. How do you view this cross training? Do you consider yourself an Aikidoka who is expanding your horizons? In other words, are you cross training to improve your Aikido training? or Are you doing Aikido to improve your other MA? Do you consider them completely seperate? (which I think you'd be decieving yourself if you did). At heart what do you consider yourself, an Aikidoka or "BJJ'er" or whatever...yes I know I'm going to get the answer along the lines of "I'm a mixed MA'er who considers them seperate but equal arts that enhance each other" and "each art has it's strength and weaknesses" answer. But I'm more interested in how you classify yourself at heart (come on...you know you have a preference for one over the other evileyes )

Mike

wendyrowe
11-23-2004, 10:20 AM
No question: in my heart, I am first and foremost an aikidoka even though I started karate before I discovered aikido and have continued training in karate. And still, even though I'm training in groundwork techniques to fill in the gaps and in tai chi because it ties everything together.

rachel
11-23-2004, 10:29 AM
Do you consider yourself an Aikidoka who is expanding your horizons?
I'm currently training in Aikido, Judo, Kendo and Kyudo. As much as I enjoy the others I've been doing Aikido about 15 years longer, so I'm kinda biased.

happysod
11-23-2004, 10:33 AM
I'm a tree hugging, skirt wearing aiki-fruity and proud of it - they'll never take my unbendable arm away from me! However, that's just my opinion and some people who have actually seen my technique may believe I'm flattering myself.... to be serious, I train in other arts to improve my aikido.

Chad Sloman
11-23-2004, 11:23 AM
I concurrently practice Judo (ne waza heavy), Aikido and Atarashii Naginata. I've been practicing Aikido the longest, but I'd rather not commit to calling myself "just an Aikidoka", but rather a Budoka, as I enjoy training in the Japanese Martial Systems. I typically divorce my aikido from my judo and vice versa determined on which class I'm in, mainly because of the lack of small joint manipulation in Judo. I will say that my tachi waza has definite Aiki flavor and my Aikido probably would be viewed by some as "rough". But for me, it's all about the practice and most importantly THE FUN!

csinca
11-23-2004, 11:35 AM
Michael,

That is a very interesting question!

I cross train to fill the holes that I see in aikido to give myself as many options as I can.

But I don't see my training as separate. I firmly believe in principles rather than techniques and that the principles are the same regardless of the art. So when I'm working punching combinations on the hand targets with a partner, I'm still concentrating on maintaining my posture and balance and using my legs and hips to generate power rather than my arms. In addition I'm also constantly making adjustments in distance and angles. I'm working the same principles but training them in different ways and developing different skills.

Last night while working roundhouse kicks I was able to work full speed and full power with one partner so I did. I worked on maintaining my posture and balance, generating power from my hips, angle of attack... starts to get repetitive. then I had a much smaller partner so I worked with much less speed and power. I started working on form, maintaining my posture and balance, using my hips rather than my legs, and angle of attack.... yep same principles

Chris

Chris

CNYMike
11-23-2004, 03:12 PM
Here are some questions for those of you that do cross train. How do you view this cross training? Do you consider yourself an Aikidoka who is expanding your horizons? In other words, are you cross training to improve your Aikido training? or Are you doing Aikido to improve your other MA? Do you consider them completely seperate? (which I think you'd be decieving yourself if you did). At heart what do you consider yourself, an Aikidoka or "BJJ'er" or whatever...yes I know I'm going to get the answer along the lines of "I'm a mixed MA'er who considers them seperate but equal arts that enhance each other" and "each art has it's strength and weaknesses" answer. But I'm more interested in how you classify yourself at heart (come on...you know you have a preference for one over the other evileyes )

Mike

Hi, Mike ...

That's a good question.

I suppose that strictly speaking, I'm a karateka who's cross-training in other things, although I have a much stronger interest in Aikido -- I have more books on Aikido than in other arts, and I am positively addicted to the NEW YORK AIKIKAI 2002 PAST PRESENT AND FUTURE tape I loaned to one of the guys from the Kali/Serak class I go to.

I got back into Aikido mainly because I like Aikido. I can justify it: Aikido expands on the internal elements that I've been exploring in Tai Chi, and these, in turn, complement the harder, more "combative" elements I've been practicing in karate, LaCoste-Inosanto Kali, and now, Pentjak Silat Serak, but really, I got back into Aikido because it got under my skin in the late '80s and that's it --- the end.

Looking at Aikido after more than a decade of exposure to other things makes it interesting. There are some things that I think are sensible; the evasive footwork, especially going forward at an angle, is also found in Kali and Serak and God only know where else, so it is a good idea. Some things, like extending your arms fully, might be suicidal against my Kali instructor; I can see him saying "Thank you" before you splat into the floor. Somethings I put a mental asterix next to, because I'm not crazy about them but that just might be my ignnorance of Aikido (and, in all honesty, the other arts I'm comparing it to). And some things are neat.

Overall, Aikido probably isn't hurting me any; my aforementioned Kali instructor encouraged me to do it when I told him I had been thinking about it! And it zeroes in on certain areas that, because of the vastness of their curiculums, don't come up as often in Kali and Serak.

Although I do a little bit of almost everything when I train on my own, my current project is to learn to compartmentalize my training somehow. Because joint locks and throws are very prominent in Kali and Serak and in my karate sensei's take on karate, thinking about them all at the same time can make me feel like my head is going to explode. It is difficult; one night in Aikido, Sensei Larry demonstrated and arm lock in response to kata dori munetski (or something like that); the very next night, in Kali/Serak, Pembantu Andy demonstrated the SAME EXACT POSITION, although with a slightly different purpose.

Boom!

Oh, crap, another bloody mess all over the place.

So, does that answer your question?

What was your question? :hypno:

:cool:

Michael Young
11-23-2004, 04:28 PM
Thanks all, very nice replies to my questions, I particularly liked Michael's and Chris's. Thanks for so much detail. I am a little short on time right now, so I'll post some of my own thoughts and experiences later. (I just want to keep this thread alive right now :D )

Mike

Rocky Izumi
11-23-2004, 04:46 PM
I would like to assert that every time my BJJ friend and I had a competition, I put him on the ground. He usually collapsed after the 7th or 8th beer and I was good for at least another three Tsingtao. Right, A.C.?

Choose your weapons wisely.

The irreverent and irrelevant,
Rock

JMartinez
11-23-2004, 05:16 PM
Please read what this Judo Sensei has to say about BJJ and his experience. I agree with him entirely.
Here is an interesting look at the Gracies. It is by a famous judo stylist named Mehdi who has taught the Gracies judo. He teaches the older form of judo, his students are about as good at ground as they are at standup so they do very well in BJJ tournaments and the mundials. He has also taught many BJJ fighters such as Sperry, Rolls and Rickson gracie and all will tell you is a touph dude. He beat Swain in a randori match. Rolls centered his strategy around Mehdis principal of doing a good throw(hopefully to knock the person out or injure them, Rolls Gracie has won matches like that and so has Mehdi and his students) and then from there dominant position do a submission. I am suprised none of Mehdis students have done UFC or Pride although I am pretty sure they have done vale tudo in Brazil. Anyways here is the article. http://www.geocities.com/global_training_report/mehdi.htm
Here is the actual article.
"I had passed by the Mehdi Academia de Judo on R. Visconde de Piraja 411 in Ipanema more times than I could count. Sylvio Behring recommended that I meet Mehdi. So did many other people. "Mehdi knows everything. He's been here forever", they'd say, or something like it.
One late afternoon, I did stop in. The door was open. Mehdi was napping on the tatame. I rapped on the wall to let him know I was there, but he already knew. I told him that I lived in Japan and wanted to see how judo is practiced in Brazil. He liked that.

Kastriot "George" Mehdi came to Rio on vacation from the south coast of France, near Cannes, in 1949. He decided to stay. He had studied judo before, in France, and wanted to continue. There was judo in São Paulo among the Japanese immigrant community, but in Rio, the closest thing to judo was jiu-jitsu.

The place to learn it was 151 Av. Rio Branco in the Central District. That's where Carlos and Helio Gracie had their large academy (for more about this academy see Robson).

Mehdi enrolled.

Carlos, Helio, Robson, Carlson, and the other instructors at the academy emphasized ground fighting because, they said, it was more effective and more realistic. In a street fight or self-defense situation, four things could be expected. First, the attacker would probably be bigger. Second, he would be attacking. Third, whoever was getting hit would probably clinch to avoid getting hit some more. And fourth, sooner or later, one or both people would fall down. The Gracie system was predicated on these four assumptions.

Mehdi's interpretation was different. The Gracies emphasized ground fighting because they "don't know how to throw". Why get your clothes dirty if you don't have to, Mehdi says?

Mehdi's view was that a good throw can make ground fighting unnecessary. And even if the fight goes on, you are going to be in a much better position after dropping or slamming your opponent onto the ground from five feet up in the air, no matter how you look at it. Ukemi or no ukemi, it hurts.

A correctly executed throw is also beautiful to behold, Mehdi believed, whereas holding someone between your legs for the entire fight or match, while ok for a woman in a street survival situation, is unbecoming of a trained martial artist. Romero Jacare and Mehdi's former students Sylvio Behring and Rickson Gracie, believe Mehdi has a point.

However, when two fighters are evenly matched and the rules permit them to stay in the guard, it's inevitable that this will happen. It's a problem with the rules, or the officiating, rather than the techniques, Sylvio says. Mehdi agrees entirely. It's the rules that make jiu-jitsu what it is and what it shouldn't be. That's precisely what's wrong with it. That's the point.

It wasn't only the Gracie's emphasis on ground fighting Mehdi didn't care for, it was the Gracies themselves. "Fighting and lying. I don't like. Judo should make a better person, not someone who fights in the street". He mentions as an example of Gracie mendacity the time Helio announced that a French judo "champion" was learning from him. "He was just a beginner, not a champion", Mehdi says.

(Anyone watching Gracie in Action 1 and 2 might have detected a certain penchant on Rorion's part for exaggerating the skills and achievements of the opponents of his family and its "representatives". Rorion describes the guys who challenged him and his brothers (or accepted their challenge) in the USA as " experts", "masters", "champions", or at the very least "instructors". In Brazil, the Gracies generally describe their challengers as palhaços (clowns).

For Mehdi, the simple fact that the Gracie's call their style "jiu-jitsu" is evidence of dishonesty. "It's all judo," he says.

(Mehdi may be right that all jiu-jitsu techniques are really judo. Jiu-jitsu guys don't mind that their techniques came from somewhere else. On the contrary, they are proud of it—every retelling of the Gracie story begins with Carlos's encounter with Mitsuo Maeda. You can see most jiu-jitsu techniques on old Kosen Judo tapes. You won't see many of them in judo dojos however. And most crucially, what you won't see on these tapes or in old books is how to set them up. This is where the Brazilians have taken newaza to a higher level.)

Mehdi gave up on Gracie jiu-jitsu and went to Japan immediately after the American Occupation ended in 1952. Among others, he trained with Kimura Masahiko, who defeated Helio the year before. He stayed five years as a student at Tenri University in Nara. Kimuras's fight with Helio, Mehdi says, "was a joke". Kimura agreed to stall for 10 minutes, Mehdi says, to give the fans their money's worth and begin fighting after that. Mehdi imitated Helio's footwork in the match, exaggerating its awkwardness. Thirteen minutes into the fight, Kimura finished Helio with a shoulder lock, which the Brazilians now call "Kimura" in his honor ("don't call it "Kimura", Mehdi admonishes—it's ude garami"). There was some talk of fixing the actual outcome of the fight, but the Japanese embassy reportedly warned Kimura that if he lost he wouldn't be welcome back home in Japan anymore. A certain degree of choreography could be accepted but for Japan's greatest champion to lose to a scrawny gaijin, that would be too much.

As another example of the Gracie's flexible attitude with regard to accuracy, Mehdi says Kimura weighed 80 kilos, not the 100 usually claimed (he showed me a picture of himself and Kimura at about the time of the contest; they appeared to be the same height and weight, and Mehdi is about 5'9" and 80 kilos. On the other hand, Kimura weighed 86 kilos for his final judo shiai in Tokyo in 1949. It is possible that he put on some kilos during the two years between the contests.)

Mehdi, who received his 8 dan kodokan rating in 1979, is not just an "encyclopedia" of technique (according to Cleiber Maia, who owns black belts in both judo and jiu-jitsu and was a Brazilian freestyle wrestling champion). He was a successful competitor too, dominating Brazilian judo for years. Mike Swain visited Mehdi's dojo just after winning the world 71 kg. Championship in 1987 (his Brazilian wife was from Rio). Swain was understandably confident. While practicing a particular throw, Mehdi corrected his grip. Swain rashly invited, or according to some versions, challenged Mehdi to show him in a randori situation. Mehdi threw Swain across the room and into the wall (this story was recounted to me by both Sylvio Behring and Cleiber Maia, although neither could recall who the American judo champion was. Mehdi provided that information along with a quotation from Swain telling Mehdi's students that, "voces não sabem a sorte que voces tem em serem alunos do Professor Mehdi, com todo conhecimento e technica" [you don't know how fortunate you are to have a teacher like Mehdi, with all his knowledge and technique].)

Mehdi was reluctant to talk about the Gracies. It's no secret in Rio that he doesn't like them. Why write about the Gracies, when there are great Japanese champions to write about, he asks? Because I'm writing about Brazilian jiu-jitsu, I explained. "Why?" he asked, seeming genuinely puzzled as to why anyone would care. He was reticent about himself too, for the same reason. It isn't jiu-jitsu as such that he disliked, because he liked Marcello Behring. [Marcello was better at ground fighting than Rickson, says Mehdi. Sylvio says it isn't true. "You have to remember, Mehdi loved my brother; he hated the Gracies"].

Mehdi loves the Japanese "mentality". It's that just as much throws chokes, locks, and hold-downs that he teaches. As one of his former students, Mario Sperry said, "I learned so much from Mehdi, not just judo and jiu-jiutsu, but other things too, like honor and respect".

Maybe it's the Brazilian mentality he doesn't care for? He denies that. Brazilians are undisciplined (compared to the Japanese, who isn't?), but he likes them. It's the Gracies themselves he doesn't like, and specifically their "mentality"—lying and brawling.

He also thought it was ludicrous for someone with a mere black belt to pretend to teach anything to anyone. "In Japan a teacher needs 20-30 years of experience before he teaches". I didn't tell him that people actually teach jiu-jitsu with a blue belt, in some places. Not in Rio of course. That was the key. In Japan, teachers have 20-30 years of experience because Japan is full of good judo players, just as Rio is full of good jiu-jitsu players. I also suspect Mehdi didn't realize that a jiu-jitsu black belt represents six or seven or more years of study, while judo black belts, at least in Japan, are routinely awarded in less than two years, sometimes less than one.

However little Mehdi may have liked Carlos and Helio and their brothers, he never objected to teaching their offspring and students. In addition to Rickson and the Behring Brothers, Carlson Jr., Mario Sperry, Murilo Bustamante, Wallid Ismail and many others have spent time on Mehdi's mats. According to one jiu-jitsu instructor (also a former Mehdi student), Rolls Gracie himself learned judo from Mehdi.

And Mehdi shared a certain attitude with the jiu-jitsu community. He took it for granted that I wanted to train. Where's your gi, he asked? I was cautious. The ju in judo means gentle but there's nothing gentle about being dropped on your head or back from five feet off the ground. However, I wanted to get to know Mehdi better, and he seemed eager to have me participate in a class, so I did.

Everyone told me Mehdi's classes were intense. The warm-up alone was enough to wipe you out if you weren't in top shape. I watched a class to confirm that. However, the class ran from 6 to 8:30, and was loosely structured. The first part, 30 minutes, was the "warm-up"; the second part was new technique (or review as the case may be). The third part was traditional uchikomi (setting up the throw without actually executing it) and the fourth was randori (free sparring, or, the standing version of "rolling"). This is standard practice in every judo dojo everywhere. That would take more or less an hour, but those who wanted to could stay longer and continue their practice in whatever form they preferred. They could also arrive whenever they felt like it and begin with whatever they wanted. In other words, they could skip most of the warm-up if they wanted to. Some people came late and left early. The kids came early. Mehdi was sitting on a bench chatting with me, shouting commands, and now and then getting up to correct a student's form. The warm-up was led by an adult with a black belt and a ponytail. When uchikomi began he put on a large mechanical knee brace. "Judo injury?" I asked Mehdi. "Yes", he said, "his shoulder too".

I came a little late the next day, hoping to miss at least some of the "warm-up" (I planned to visit Alexandre Paiva's academy later that evening and anticipated being invited to roll, as never failed to happen everywhere). All I missed was 30 laps around the dojo, but that helped. Mehdi introduced me to the class and said he was going to teach a special class in my honor, and asked me what I wanted to learn. I said, newaza, and especially the technique I saw them practicing the previous day, a choke counter to opponent's attempted seio-nage. Mehdi also demonstrated a very painful choke (which Alvaro Barreto also showed me a few days later!) and a nice variation on Kimura (ude garami) that works even if opponent hangs on to his own belt.

What do you think? he asked me after. "Impressive, interesting", I said. "I like newaza", I elaborated. "Nage-waza is dangerous". I was thinking about his black belt assistant with the knee brace and bum shoulder. "Yes", Mehdi agreed, "judo is dangerous. But I love it."

I mentioned that I planned to fight in the Internacional de Masters e Seniors tournament later that month, and asked him for some tips on how to get off to a good start. He suggested some hiza guruma variations and practiced them with me. Cleiber Maia was right, and so was Sylvio Behring, Café, Mario Sperry, and Mike Swain. Mehdi knew a lot.

Interesting guy, this Mehdi."

Aristeia
11-23-2004, 05:44 PM
Wow, I'm so completely unimpressed by so many people here. Just a quick question, if you think aikido is such crap, why do you practice it? I'm assuming you do, you're here...

Wow, you must be reading a different thread. Some of us have voiced our opinions on where Aikido has holes, but no one's said it's crap. Just because we don't claim aikido to be the most bad ass kick your ass system on the planet isn't the same as saying it's crap.

Let's take a car analogy. If I want to get from A to B really quickly I might get a Ferrari. But just because a Ferrari is faster doesn't mean my 4x4 is crap. The Ferrari owner and the 4x4 owner share some goals - getting from A to B, but have different priorities in how to accomplish that. The 4x4 owner sacrifices speed for other benefits, but his vehicle will still get him to destination ina reasonable time frame.

Similarly here. Aikido is good for self defence. Other arts may be better, or may give you that self defence ability sooner. But that's ok, because we are prepared to sacrifice some of that for other benefits, particularly when you do still get self defence tools along with those benefits.

Aristeia
11-23-2004, 05:48 PM
Here are some questions for those of you that do cross train. How do you view this cross training? Do you consider yourself an Aikidoka who is expanding your horizons? In other words, are you cross training to improve your Aikido training? or Are you doing Aikido to improve your other MA? Do you consider them completely seperate? (which I think you'd be decieving yourself if you did). At heart what do you consider yourself, an Aikidoka or "BJJ'er" or whatever...yes I know I'm going to get the answer along the lines of "I'm a mixed MA'er who considers them seperate but equal arts that enhance each other" and "each art has it's strength and weaknesses" answer. But I'm more interested in how you classify yourself at heart (come on...you know you have a preference for one over the other evileyes )

Mike

I cross train to varying degrees in BJJ, Judo and Ninjitsu. Put a gun to my head and ask for a preference and it'll be Aikido and BJJ
I will first classify myself as an Aikidoka for a couple of reasons.
1. I have been studying it the longest and know it in the most detail
2. I tend to be interested in the other arts in terms of how they fit into aikido.
That is to say because Aikido is my base, it is somewhat inevitable that I view other arts from that perspective. But there's alot of good stuff you can take from those arts, both in terms of technique and training methods/approach that you can bring back into the aikido dojo.

Michael Young
11-23-2004, 11:11 PM
Thanks again all for the excellent replies, I was honestly surprised to get so many so soon. It's probably pretty obvious where my preference lies by my other posts on this particular thread. I've trained in various other MA's. Started in TKD when I was a pre-teen, did some wrestling and Kung-Fu in my late teens, early 20's, and some karate. I was frustrated by the lack of a comprehensive system, so started shopping around in my mid-20's and started Aikido when I was 25 (found out about Aikido mostly through Seagal movies, like a lot of others) I mostly came to Aikido still looking or a self-defense system, but like most who stick it out for over a decade, have found so much more in it. I still very much consider it, and practice it, as a martial self-defense system though...my Sensei is a student of Saotome Shihan and is in federal law enforcement, so he tends to "keep it real". I do like to dink around with other people who have trained in other MA's on occasion and have had a little exposure to BJJ, and still keep up with my striking stuff a bit too...it's funny though, just like Chris Sacksteder wrote earlier, after starting Aikido and using its principles of movement from the center and hips, I find my strikes are much more effective and powerful than they ever where when I trained in striking MA's...of course that could be a failing of understanding on my part when still training specifically in those arts. Anyhow, an Aikidoka at heart for sure, and everything I learn from elsewhere is just done as an enhancement to my Aikido training, I incorporate what I like and throw out what doesn't fit. I don't really see myself, at this point in time or in the near future, training in anything else. At some point in the long term I might think about a sword style, if I could find an experienced legitimate teacher close by (Russian systema would be cool too, but same problem with an instructor in my area)...but again I think it would serve my Aikido-centric view of MA's. To me it seems Aikido is very all-encompassing and can easily absorb other MA systems. I see Saotome Sensei doing this all the time, as well as other instructors, like George Ledyard Sensei for example. I wonder if many students from other MA's cross train in Aikido to enhance their specific MA, yet view themselves as still "belonging" to that art primarily...not that I would expect an answer to this question, as this is an Aikido website after all :D, but I really haven't heard about that much at all...it seems Aikido folks are more likely to do this. Now whether that is because of the type of persons Aikidoka generally are, or because we see something lacking in the art or its training pedagogy, is another question entirely. Any thoughts on that one?

Mike

bob_stra
11-26-2004, 02:56 AM
I wonder if many students from other MA's cross train in Aikido to enhance their specific MA, yet view themselves as still "belonging" to that art primarily...

Yes.

However I'd like to think I'm getting to stage where I can say "I do Bob-Do", whatever the strange components of that are. (at one time I was doing aikido and vale tudo. Talk about chalk and cheese)

CNYMike
11-26-2004, 09:33 PM
.... I'd like to think I'm getting to stage where I can say "I do Bob-Do", whatever the strange components of that are ....

That would be one way around the Cross Trainer's Lament ("Which martial art am I doing now?"). :D

(at one time I was doing aikido and vale tudo. Talk about chalk and cheese)

Can't be any stranger than doing shito-ryu karate, Kali, Pentjak Silat Serak, Aikido, and Tai Chi! :)

Sanshouaikikai
06-09-2005, 11:37 PM
Look...I just want to say...that (I'm not trying to say that BJJ is bad or any martial art is bad) BJJ is judo. If you look at the historical aspect of it...it literally is judo!!! Maeda went to Brazil to teach what? It was JUDO!!!! The Gracie family just modified a few things (nothing major) and called it Brazilian Juijitsu for some strange reason. However...though the triangle choke they do in BJJ maybe from a different angle in most "BJJ situations" than in Judo or other forms of jujitsu...it still basically is Judo. The funny thing is...that I was soooo blind to that for the longest time! And what's even sadder is that many, if not most, martial artists...in particular brazilian juijitsu practitioners...are still blind to! The only reason I brought this up is because I SOOOOOO sick and tired of hearing how sweet BJJ is and how it's better than any grappling art...when...it's no better or different than judo!!!

Red Beetle
06-09-2005, 11:50 PM
Look...I just want to say...that (I'm not trying to say that BJJ is bad or any martial art is bad) BJJ is judo. If you look at the historical aspect of it...it literally is judo!!! Maeda went to Brazil to teach what? It was JUDO!!!! The Gracie family just modified a few things (nothing major) and called it Brazilian Juijitsu for some strange reason. However...though the triangle choke they do in BJJ maybe from a different angle in most "BJJ situations" than in Judo or other forms of jujitsu...it still basically is Judo. The funny thing is...that I was soooo blind to that for the longest time! And what's even sadder is that many, if not most, martial artists...in particular brazilian juijitsu practitioners...are still blind to! The only reason I brought this up is because I SOOOOOO sick and tired of hearing how sweet BJJ is and how it's better than any grappling art...when...it's no better or different than judo!!!

Brazilian Jiu-jitsu is nothing like Modern Judo. Just take a quick look at the rules for Olympic Judo, and the rules for most Brazilian Jiu-jitsu tournaments. You will win the match if you execute a great throw in Judo. You get two points (usually the lowest score) in BJJ tournaments. The results from the rules alone will dictate what students will practice if they are going to compete. It will also dictate how much time is spent developing new or improved tactics.

You won't see Olympic Judo guys playing spider-guard in international Judo matches today, due to the fact that they don't allow much time for katame-waza.

The old Kosen Judo guys can be compared closer to Modern BJJ. One thing you will note is that Kosen Judo is very rough and choppy looking. BJJ is smooth, fluid, and more strategic.

Brazilain Jiu-jitsu is better than Judo when it comes to grappling. It is also better than Judo when it comes to wrestling without the kimono/gi. It is also better than Judo when it comes to actual fighting.

Red Beetle
www.kingsportjudo.com

Michael Neal
06-10-2005, 08:13 AM
Brazilain Jiu-jitsu is better than Judo when it comes to grappling. It is also better than Judo when it comes to wrestling without the kimono/gi. It is also better than Judo when it comes to actual fighting.

Oh come on LOL. Wrestling is not BJJ, you crosstrain in wrestling then try to claim it is BJJ? BJJ in itself has nothing on Judo as far as takedowns go, and even with the wrestling they are weaker because they spend most of their time doing newaza.

In an actual fight the ground is not the best place to be so I think Judo is better in that regard.

Michael Neal
06-10-2005, 08:16 AM
Why don't you go back to judoinfo.com and argue this stuff? Why do you come to an Aikido forum to try and argue BJJ is better and Judo?

rob_liberti
06-10-2005, 08:31 AM
I totally agree. If you want to agrue about BJJ vs Judo, there are better places to do it.

Rob

Michael Young
06-10-2005, 10:13 AM
This thread is pretty old...I was suprised to see a notification in my inbox this morning about a post on it. Anyhow, my advice...don't feed the troll :yuck:

Aristeia
06-10-2005, 05:34 PM
all I'll add is this. Judo is superior in some regards, BJJ in others. which is better overall needs to be considered in the light of "better for what?". to say they are the same today though is just silly. Aikido has the same root as many other jujitsu ryu, but over time they have developed into distinct arts that can be easily seperated. same deal here.

Michael Neal
06-10-2005, 06:51 PM
exactly, each art has their strengths and weakenesses.

bryce_montgomery
06-10-2005, 08:42 PM
....He went on to ask me "what would you do in the event for whatever reason, you ended up on the ground with some 250lb bully stradeling you and punching you in the face?"...


What if?...


Bryce

Kevin Leavitt
06-11-2005, 01:42 AM
damn, i saw this what if happen at least 5 times last week, just on my way to worK!

wendyrowe
06-11-2005, 06:14 AM
What if?...


BryceOr, as one of my favorite sigs here used to say:If I was attacked by thirty ninjas riding T-Rex's, supported by a vast undefeated clone army of robotic Lincolns wielding Febreeze, should I Tenkan?But in this case I guess the question would be whether to tenkan or get guard -- and the answer is obviously "tenkan," since you wouldn't want to go to the ground against multiple attackers! Clearly, then, Aikido is superior to BJJ.

bryce_montgomery
06-11-2005, 09:14 PM
damn, i saw this what if happen at least 5 times last week, just on my way to worK!

Really?...did you see any ninjas? ;)

Bryce

Michael Neal
06-11-2005, 09:48 PM
speaking of ninjas, one of our members over at judoinfo.com was recently challenged to a match by a ninja. A video was made and is being prepared for the internet. It did not end well for the ninja.

Sanshouaikikai
06-11-2005, 11:29 PM
Yeah...of course BJJ focuses more on submissions than Judo does. However...from which art did these submission techniques come from? Did the Gracies just make up a whole bunch of submission techniques!? No...they did not...they probably MODIFIED a couple of moves here and there...but overall...the techniques come mainly from Judo. Look at any Judo textbook and compare their submission techniques and strategies to BJJ. You will find that they are identical. Like I said...I'm not here to bash any style...I just don't see what's SOOOO special about either one especially BJJ, you know what I mean? Again...no offense.

Aristeia
06-11-2005, 11:53 PM
Using your logic. what's so special about Aikido? It comes from early forms of jujitsu, just like every other jujitsu around today, including BJJ and Judo, so why do you think Aikido's so great? It's really just judo.

sounds silly doesn't it?

Takuan
06-12-2005, 12:34 AM
Well, the Gracie family learned most of their techniques from a Judoka called Maeda who lived in Brazil in the 1930s. The techniques were made smoother using the opponents limbs as levers and always taking him to the floor by a hold named here as a "baiana" by the youngest and frailest of the Gracie brothers, Helio.

I do not agree that the BJJ techniques "come mainly from Judo". These submission techniques were perfected from many types of Jiu Jitsu moves that Helio Gracie worked on. I feel ambivalent about giving praise to these techniques because the Gracies have absolutely no sense of Budo whatsoever. Basically they have always been (it's how they are referred to by most of the Brazilian society) a family of hoodlums. In the 1940s and 50s Helio and his brothers would place ads in the newspapers here in Brazil inviting any man with guts for a challenge in a no-rules fight to prove how the Gracie system was superior. However, Helio had many talented children which he diligently trained to be winners in martial arts competitions, including his eldest Rickson who NEVER (in 40 years) lost a competition. I tranined for a while in a Gracie academy here in Rio de Janeiro and I must say I hated every minute. Being on the ground for hours with a partner wearing yourself out and never hearing a single concept of philosophy, only commnents on how to crush your enemy and how to win in the street. Recently Helio Gracie (who is in his 80s and becoming quite senile) was featured in the brazilian editon of Playboy magazine in a most unfortunate interview where he expressed his sordid ideas of martial arts (being quite disrespectful to traditional arts like Karate and Judo), his homophobic comments and hostile outlook on life in general.

Rickson Gracie (a much humbler and better resolved human being) has always spoken with tremendous respect about Aikido and many other traditional martial arts, but he speaks with tremendous disdain about instructors out there teaching so called Brazilian Jiu Jitsu (the Gracies prefer Gracie Jiu Jitsu, of course). I tend to agree with him on that so Michael maybe you should consider that your blue belt instructor may not be quite up to parr with what you should expect a Sensei to be.

Aikido teaches us to be in harmony with nature and fellow human beings. It does not focus on only one oponent like BJJ. It shares a common philosophy and faith among practitioners. I'll take that any day over Gracie Jiu Jitsu. Take the example of our founder, O Sensei died a peaceful death surrounded by the love of his disciples and family members. Helio Gracie is alone in a small farm on the outskirts of Rio with his dogs estranged from his family and resented with society. With all respect to this great master, to me there is hardly a comparison.

Kevin Leavitt
06-12-2005, 03:33 AM
BJJ came from Count Koma who had a background in Judo and Jiujustsu and I am sure many other things. It came from Count Koma to Carlson Gracie...not from judo.

Where you get your BJJ or Judo from is your instructor, who does not do it exactly the same way his instructor did.

Reminds me of a story:

I was in one dojo where we would draw the bokken overhead not straight up and down like normally is done, but at an angle. At a seminar, the sensei kept doing the same thing out of habit, A young student confused and eager to learn, thought it was odd and just maybe, MAYBE he had stumbled onto the big secret in martial arts...some little small thing that could make all the difference in the world.

He asked, "sensei, you technique of raising your bokken is so much different than everyone else...do you do it to hide your blade better from your opponent?"

Sensei replied: "no, i don't it because dojo roof back home tooo low!"

lineage is important. but it needs to be kept in proper perspective. We adapt and change things as we make it our own. Some of it is personality driven, some of it is philosophically driven (much which drives aikido), some of it is tactically driven, so forth and so on.

BJJ, aikido, judo, etc all at some level have the same underpinnings. There is only so much you can do with physics and dynamics that is different. (unless you study yellow bamboo :) ).

Those differences, however, can make all the difference in the world on how you shape your paradigm and discover things. It is good. I like events like aiki expo. It shows how we can embrace those differences, and learn from them...not use them as tools of division and conflict.

The east has lots to offer in culture, philosophy, and martial arts etc. One thing I think the west brings to the table is opportunity and creativity. Ask Saotome sensei sometime why he moved to the U.S.

aikigirl10
06-12-2005, 01:54 PM
BJJ is not the only art out there that does ground fighting . I've actually done ground fighting in my aikido class , and it seems to be very effective no matter what size the uke is. I've also done ground fighting in my other martial art , shaolin kung fu.

So , even if bjj is effective in ground fighting , what about all the other stuff , what if the fight doesnt go to the ground. To me , bjj is most definitely not above all other martial arts. Yes , it is good, but not the best by a long shot.

Please take this into consideration when choosing a martial art.
hope i could be of help
- paige

Kevin Leavitt
06-12-2005, 02:31 PM
what is the best?

(throwing a long line out with a bobber!) :)

Michael Neal
06-12-2005, 02:48 PM
BJJ is not the only art out there that does ground fighting . I've actually done ground fighting in my aikido class , and it seems to be very effective no matter what size the uke is.

I really would not consider ground techniques you learn in Aikido to be anything that effective compared to Judo, BJJ, or wrestling.

Kevin Leavitt
06-12-2005, 02:52 PM
Michael, you don't know that for sure! I say that in all seriousness.

While the aikido you and I are familiar with don't find ground fighitng involved...it is not that unlikely that an aikido sensei with ground fighitng skills could not integrate this into aikido, and still be within the realm of aikido.

not HIGHLY likely, but also not unlikely.

Michael Neal
06-12-2005, 03:13 PM
it is possible Kevin, but I am reluctant, especially since it is unlikely they do any newaza randori to build realistic skills to be able to apply the techniques. But I could be wrong, I guess.

bryce_montgomery
06-12-2005, 04:33 PM
...Ask Saotome sensei sometime why he moved to the U.S....

It had something to do with a "melting pot" didn't it?... ;)

Anyway, IMHO with all do respect to BJJers/GJJers (whichever you prefer) that that style is not the best...and actually that no style is the best. If there was a style that was the best, and I'll quote my karate instructor on this, "If there was a best style, then no one would be teaching any other style...they'd be teaching the best style."

Every martial art brings something to the table and offers its' own pros and cons.


Bryce

aikigirl10
06-12-2005, 05:50 PM
i should correct myself

I didnt mean to make it sound like there was only one good style out there, i just meant to say that BJJ is no better (from what i have seen) then any other style.
sorry for the confusion
-paige

aikigirl10
06-12-2005, 05:52 PM
Good point about the melting pot , Bryce.

wendyrowe
06-13-2005, 08:02 AM
While the aikido you and I are familiar with don't find ground fighitng involved...it is not that unlikely that an aikido sensei with ground fighitng skills could not integrate this into aikido, and still be within the realm of aikido.
You probably figured you'd be hearing from me on this one, Kevin. Yes, an aikido sensei with ground fighting skills can most definitely teach groundfighting that uses aiki techniques. He doesn't have to start from scratch, though, because there are old Ueshiba Japanese books and pictures that show O'Sensei doing groundwork, such as these up on aikidog -- I particularly like his smile in the second picture:

http://venus.secureguards.com/~aikidog-/aikicenter/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&p=1119#1119

It seems to me that someone can get reasonably good at BJJ in a relatively short time (a year or two) and that it takes longer if you're starting from scratch to be able to apply aikido effectively against BJJ and accomplished wrestlers. Someone with a strong aikido background should be able to learn to apply it in groundwork without too much trouble, though.

I've seen Jason DeLucia sensei use aikido successfully against BJJ and he's been teaching us how to do so keeping to the very upright posture that's key to aikido rather than joining our opponent in the more leaning, curled or sprawled BJJ/wrestling postures. You can get an idea of what I mean from this aikidog.com "Getting out of guard" video clip from one of our classes:

http://venus.secureguards.com/~aikidog-/aikicenter/modules.php?name=AikiClips&op=show&pid=91

Kevin Leavitt
06-13-2005, 08:58 AM
cool. I used to think I could get good in a year or two with BJJ until I sparred with some high purple belts and worked out with a black belt, Roberto Traven, they take it to a whole nother level! It is amazing.

Looks like the stuff that Jason Delucia is doing is awesome. Would love to be able to experience it.

I am finding that it is true, that my aikido background is allowing me to learn ground work faster. I am probably a high white belt in about 8 months of training. Maybe getting close to Blue, but not having consistent instruction from a black belt and other ranked students it is hard to tell.

Aikido definitely is not a hinderance, as was my karate was in learning aikido.

Kevin Leavitt
06-13-2005, 08:59 AM
Paige, I understood that you meant that BJJ was not the best! Just having a little fun! :) There are no "best" martial arts, only ones that are better than others for a given situation and training objective. Right tool for the job!

Sanshouaikikai
06-29-2005, 02:41 PM
"If there was a best style, then no one would be teaching any other style...they'd be teaching the best style."

Well....if that were the case and everyone was teaching the best style....I would come up with a style that would counter the best style...then my style will be the best (until someone tries and counters it successfully, lol)!!!! MWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!

crusecontrl
07-07-2005, 10:28 AM
It seems to me that someone can get reasonably good at BJJ in a relatively short time (a year or two) and that it takes longer if you're starting from scratch to be able to apply aikido effectively against BJJ and accomplished wrestlers. Someone with a strong aikido background should be able to learn to apply it in groundwork without too much trouble, though.

I've seen Jason DeLucia sensei use aikido successfully against BJJ and he's been teaching us how to do so keeping to the very upright posture that's key to aikido rather than joining our opponent in the more leaning, curled or sprawled BJJ/wrestling postures. You can get an idea of what I mean from this aikidog.com "Getting out of guard" video clip from one of our classes:

i know the above is your opinion but in a good dojo you don't even make blue (1st belt after white) until a year or two has passed, if you talked to someone and they say you can be a master in a year they are a "Mcdojo" and are full of it.

and your video of that guy passing the guard HORRIBLE!!!!!!!
1st if you pass like that head control
2nd there are way better ways to pass than that
3rd it is easily swept by under hooking the ankles and pulling while bucking forward with the hips so know your friend is on his back what next aikido folks you've been reversed and are on your back with no room to move???

just my .02 take it with a grain of salt
--we are all one--

Ron Tisdale
07-07-2005, 11:16 AM
I don't know squat in any real way about bjj...but I would be Jason Deluca does (as a former competitor in UFC)...and several people on this board as well. Would anyone like to qualify the opinion given above? I'd be interested in learning more...

Best,
Ron

crusecontrl
07-07-2005, 11:28 AM
I don't know squat in any real way about bjj...but I would be Jason Deluca does (as a former competitor in UFC)...and several people on this board as well. Would anyone like to qualify the opinion given above? I'd be interested in learning more...

Best,
Ron

Ron,

yes, being in the UFC you must have some concept of fighting but just because you get in the octagon doesnt mean your technique cant stink, and IMEO (in my expert opinion) the pass that was shown was horrible and i hope he didnt use it and if he did i can see why he is no longer with them ;) there are more effective ways to pass or even just to get out of the guard period. I'd be happy to explain more if you are still interested :D

--we are all one--

DustinAcuff
07-07-2005, 12:29 PM
first- i have not read ANY previous posts before page five so what I am saying may not be completely correct within the context of the discussion.

second- i am assuming that this thread has boiled down to a bjj vs aikido=which will win type discussion

To start off my money is on aikido IF some things happen: 1. it is a streetfight instead of in a controlled enviornment (ala UFC) -- in the rules it is stated that a number of out techniques are illeagl 2. the aikido practitioner has atleast 1 year in a reality based school 3. the aikidoka has a workable knowledge of pressure points 4. the aikidoka has spent some time doing groundwork as part of regular training.

I have trained BJJ with some really good people, including the 2002 & 2003 world champ in both his rank division (blue and purple) and the open division, and a number of others who were invited to be part of the Gracie's panamerican team. I know what bjj is made of. If you play by a BJJ player's rules then you will lose. You must use small circle jujitsu. You must use cervical manipulation. You must use pressurepoints. And you must be able to keep moving on the ground and know how to move. I am lucky that my sensei holds san-dan in kito ryu jujitsu which is where my current ground training comes from. But O Sensei studied Kito too. Groundfighting is built into aikido in the concepts and applications. There is no reason that you should EVER be beaten on the ground as long as you apply the principles correctly.

Roy Dean
07-07-2005, 01:11 PM
I would disagree that you can get fairly good at BJJ in 2 years. Perhaps against an untrained attacker, but it takes a long time to ingrain positional escapes into muscle memory, and this must be done before a person can really get good at submissions (so if you lose your position by attempting a submission, you can easily escape and try again). Also, the sensitivity and timing of a 2 year student may not be enough to offset the advantage of an athletic opponent with a weight advantage (say 40-50 pounds). 4-5 years, yes. 1-2 years, no.

The guard pass demonstrated by Mr. DeLucia seems OK to me. Posture is not exclusive to Aikido, and is the first step in passing the guard. Yes, he could get swept from the standing position, but with a high level of awareness, a person can negate this. All techniques have counters. I often use standing passes to open the ankles, then work for a tight pass on my knees.

"Groundfighting is built into aikido in the concepts and applications. There is no reason that you should EVER be beaten on the ground as long as you apply the principles correctly."

I couldn't disagree more, and I'm a huge proponent of linking Aikido and BJJ together. Principles are worthless without an effective training method for putting theory into action, which means many many repititions and sparring against a live opponent. What principles would allow you to escape sidemount, or mount? It's very difficult, if not impossible, to apply pressure points, cervical manipulation, and small circle jiu-jitsu from an inferior position, with gravity, and your opponent keeping you down.


Sincerely,

Roy Dean

wendyrowe
07-07-2005, 01:37 PM
Ron,

yes, being in the UFC you must have some concept of fighting but just because you get in the octagon doesnt mean your technique cant stink, and IMEO (in my expert opinion) the pass that was shown was horrible and i hope he didnt use it and if he did i can see why he is no longer with them ;) there are more effective ways to pass or even just to get out of the guard period. I'd be happy to explain more if you are still interested :D

--we are all one--
I suspect we'd all be interested in hearing in detail your expert opinion on how people should pass or escape guard. You should probably tell us two or three different ways, since there might be circumstances under which one perfect way you describe won't work.

The guard pass demonstrated in the clip does work and he has used it successfully in pro fights as well as in training. It's never wise to dismiss a working technique just because it's not what you would do.

crusecontrl
07-07-2005, 01:48 PM
I suspect we'd all be interested in hearing in detail your expert opinion on how people should pass or escape guard. You should probably tell us two or three different ways, since there might be circumstances under which one perfect way you describe won't work.

The guard pass demonstrated in the clip does work and he has used it successfully in pro fights as well as in training. It's never wise to dismiss a working technique just because it's not what you would do.

well are we throwing punches or grappling? situation does dictate what you do. is his technique workable yes will it work everytime no id give it once and then throw it out the window if done fast. after watching the video again maybe its more his tech than the move itself that i dont like. but i guess thats just me b/c good tech his hard to beat as im sure you all know :D

--we are all one--

Kevin Leavitt
07-07-2005, 04:14 PM
Can't watch the video (don't have RM on my linux box here!). So won't comment on that whatsoever.

I do tend to lean in favor of Roy Dean's comments somewhat.

I do believe the principles of aikido to carry forward to ground work. Principles...not techniques 100%. The number one thing I got out of aikido is posture. The number two thing is to relax, blend,and to not muscle technique. I am finding I am way ahead of most beginners in this regard.

It does not change the fact that I have to learn "muscle memory" of many, many techniques which will take many years of consistent practice to become well versed at an "expert" level.

I have found, however, that you can master some basics and become very effective, very quickly on the basics. However, once you start rolling with more experienced people your lack of depth and ability to transistion etc become apparent.

I am not sure I understand pressure points. I used to think I did, but have not found them to be very effective in ground fighting as a strategy. That is, unless you consider chokes pressure point technique :) Not useful for submission.

Where I have found them useful is getting your opponent to losen up things. Your knuckles on the clavical, chin, grinding your knuckle into the mastoid are good when passing the guard, but they are really used by me as a nuisance as part of a pin or part of my base while I transition or cause uke to release a grip etc.

As far as standing techniques, I find aikido posture to be very relevant. I try and use some techniques, it depends on the situation. If it is grappling without strikes, it becomes difficult to use aikido footwork and setups cause uke assumes away much of the fight. Judo is much more relevant as an approach.

Once you add in striking and kicking, you can irimi and tenkan better. Kaiten nage is a favorite, Sankyo works well, especially for taking the back and taking your opponent to the ground. MMA has made me a believer that it is necessary to have atemi or weapons in aikido in order for it to work.

Where Aikido as a methodology seems to come up weak, is once you go to the clinch. We don't practice this range (from clinch to ground) much in aikido.

Maybe I don't know what I am talking about since I have only 9 years experience in aikido and am currently 2 Kyu. I don't feel qualified to say aikido doesn't work in street fighting.

However, I have found the the MMA training methodology to be much more align to real fighting (whatever that is defined as!) (that is another thread!).

One thing though I always tell my students. ( I am an Army Combatives Instructor), is don't leave the training room thinking you know more than you do. There is always someone out there that may know more than you, and/or less than you, but he has a buddy and/or a weapon to equalize or dominate you!

Gotta keep things in perspective and constantly expand your paradiqm and push your comfort zone in order to become well rounded!

Kevin Leavitt
07-08-2005, 02:23 AM
Finally got to work and got to watch the video. Here are my impressions. I would never judge the worth of a MA or his teaching from one small video..so I will say that up front. It is possible that this pass works well for him.

Good things: posture. He seems to present an understanding of the basic posture and breaking the guard. Also transistion to base looks decent as well.

Where I have concern is on the transistion to stand up. He does not secure a good base with his arms IMHO and is open to sweeps. He did comment that this was basic, but it is not what I learned. Seems like uke would be able to grab legs and hands. It is hard to hop up with two legs at same time and keep balance. I think he should have secured the arms at the biceps...not sure why he did not do that, it is safer.

Once up, he correctly thrust his hips forward to prevent further sweeps. Posture is key, and Mr Delucia certainly demonstrates that he understand that.

The next concern I have is sticking both hands in together under Uke's legs. I would use an elbow to break down one side while securing a grip on his pants. and concentrate on shifting one hip back to create an opening. You prevent the other hand from being arm barred by securing a grip on uke's pants or shirt. Maybe he is teaching "no gi"???? You should have a hand out for baseing if you get swept etc. I am going to try this myself tommorrow to see if sticking both hands in really are an issue.

Maybe Mr Delucia could comment on his perspective and rational. He certainly has more experience than I, and I am always looking for new stuff!

Good converation!

DustinAcuff
07-09-2005, 12:35 AM
Okay, to explain my position on BJJ: It is a sport. A good one, a useful one, but a sport. In real life i dont have even 30 sec to roll around with this guy to tap him, i need him out of action right now and bjj rarely delivers within the first 30 sec against anyone with past grappling experience.
To explain aikido on the ground: shrimp (irimi) hip-shoot (irimi/tenkan) hip switch(tenkan) raise (extend the arm to the sky) cut (cut to center)
things to do: cut into the cervical/mandibular region sankyo the fingers nikyo the wrist ikkyo the elbow gatame the shoulder elbow into the femoral nerve KEEP MOVING hipshoot/hipswitch/shrimp constantly----raise and cut and you will ALWAYS have a technique to do always stay on the ground with as much of your body as possible blend with the energy given (closed eyes tend to make this easiest initially) remember eyes work wonders
things not to do: get on your knees grab pull muscle ignore small digits (fingers and toes) dont go for chokes
you can get out of a good mount and a good side mount and a good gaurd pretty easily, mostly by cutting uke's head one direction or the other. i'm not going to bother trying to fully explain, it cannot be worded. figure it out. watch for armbars.
ways to get out of a choke: triangle: sorry you missed your chance while the femoral nerve was exposed, hopefully you know how to get out the bjj way--this should never have happened.
gi chokes (carotid): cut to center with both arms at mid forearm (chest fly style) or figure out which one is on top and raise the top one and cut the bottom one while suwariwaza tenkaning or insert a finger in and down at the clavicle notch on uke he will probably try to go for an armbar--be ready
rear mount chokes: get the hand behind your head off of you and extend the wrist across your shoulder and/or look for the pulse under uke's bicep near his elbow joint (the place you find the pulse for using a BP cuff) and push up/in toward the bone with your thumb--he will let go and probably jump off of you or reach up behind your head and pick an eye to gouge with your thumb and he WILL let go. dont waste time fiddling with something you cant find because you only have 15 seconds at most if he is doing it right.

Kevin Leavitt
07-09-2005, 05:32 PM
Having a hard time conceptualizing some of your techniques/strategies. I know they are hard to explain online.

I do have an issue with the pressure point stuff though, and overall your methods, from what I am visualizing, don't seem to be the best course of action, IMHO. (Sorry). I'd love to see you get with a decent BJJ guy and try them out on video or something at full speed, then i'd be a believer.

As far as your philosophy about going to the ground. Yes most BJJ is a sport...just like AIkido is a DO. (just got beat up a little in another thread about generalizing myself :)) I have not found one serioius BJJ practicioner that condones going to the ground as a fight strategy. Most of the guys I have worked out with these days have pretty darn good stand up skills as well, and would prefer to end a fight standing.

I used to be fairly critical of BJJ, mainly because of my aikido paradigm of multiple opponents etc....(you know the deal). Once I had my eyes opened by a few good fighters, I changed my mind about what my martial training should consist of. I am in the military and my life and my soldiers lives depend on being martial effective, so in this respect, Aikido does not cut it for teaching effective martial skills for the real world. This should not be construed as Aikido is not a real martial art in anyway, just not effective at teaching in this situation within the timeframe we have to prepare soldiers.


Like all martial arts, BJJ is not anywhere near a holistic system, so you need to find things where you find them and adopt them.

I have found my aikido skills to be a huge help in me as a well rounded martial artist. My footwork, posture, balance, blending etc is decent because of aikido.

I also disagree that BJJ does not deliver within the first 30 seconds against skilled grapplers. It can, it depends on the skill level of the two guys fighting. If you do go to the ground, you do want to be able to finish the fight as fast as possible. Doing that is having the skill to recover, gain dominance over your opponent, and neutralizing him. I think BJJ has much to offer in this particular skill set.

Pressure points, eye gouges, sand in the face, biting are all good things to disrupt the tempo of the fight and to help you out, but they should not be relied upon as a strategy for finishing a fight, and your follow up better be good since you just pissed the guy off even more!

I never have much luck with nerve pressure points like radial and brachial etc. Elbows to the side of the head, chokes, grinding against bones such as clavical etc...do work, but you still need much skill to escape and transition. BJJ guys don't do this everyday because 1. it hurts your uke. 2. it doesn't really help you practice your skills.

DustinAcuff
07-09-2005, 10:33 PM
I agree. A BJJ practitioner will likley beat the vast majority of anyone (aikidoka included) on the ground. The reason - time. There are a hundred thousand little things about the ground that you just have to learn by experience. My time spent in BJJ put me ahead of the game when we started doing ground in class. But just because you are aikido does not under any circumstances mean that you cannot defend yourself on the ground uless you train BJJ. That is my point. If you have 2 years of aikido and are attacked by anyone from any other art and you play by their rules you will lose. That is why the principles are so important, but just being able to recite them is not enough, you must be able to apply them in a sticky spot at a moments notice. It is my firm belief, backed up by everyone I train with currently, that if you learn this stuff (Daito/Aikido) well and can apply it that you should always be the one to walk away.

My entire premise is removing myself from a dangerous situation as rapidly as possible. Given that I will take the first break/lock that I can find, even if it is a thumb or whatever to get back to my feet and get away.

All of the strategies I described are a kind of combination of Kito Ryu and Daito Ryu. Check out Kito on the internet.

Kevin Leavitt
07-10-2005, 05:46 AM
Your premise is my premise. Absolutely! Remove yourself fromt he situation as rapidily as possible. For a civilian setting, that involves avoidance, keeping distance, and if I do engage, staying up right and then removing myself from the situation. I probably wouldn't even waste my time with joint locks etc, just off balance and go. Really there are very few instances that I can find in my own civilian life that would put me in that situation to begin with...but I suspose they can happen.

Being able to walk away requires much more than your skills as a martial artist. I'd say the situation will dictate more than your skill. It somewhat depends on buddies and weapons available. You can have all the martial skill in the world, but given the wrong set of circumstances your martial skill will have very little to do with your success. Martial skill might buy you time to escape or for your buddy or police etc to intervene, but if you are the bug and he is the windshield...oh well!

I only say this, because I feel very strongly that it is important to keep your empty hand training in the proper perspective. It does not make you invincible, even the best in the world will get beaten on the wrong day....In the Book of Five Rings Mushashi spends an inordinate amount of time talking strategy that leads to success, very, very little about technique.

I never enter an engagement where I have not calculated the outcome and reduced the risk factors to my favor whether it is a office meeting or a cordon and search mission, or walking down the street. I know my opponent, how he will react, and mitigate that upfront even before the battle takes place.

Those things require very little technical martial skill, to me, those things are secondary. This is what budo is about, IMHO. Understanding the holistic part of the martial environment.

Sports, as you point out Dustin, eliminate or narrow the parameters so that both opponents face even odds at the same point in battle. Makes for good training and good entertainment.

Good discussion! Keep the sun behind your back!

Ron Tisdale
07-11-2005, 09:53 AM
Thanks for the discussion everyone. I learned some things...

Ron

JasonFDeLucia
07-12-2005, 04:16 PM
i know the above is your opinion but in a good dojo you don't even make blue (1st belt after white) until a year or two has passed, if you talked to someone and they say you can be a master in a year they are a "Mcdojo" and are full of it.

and your video of that guy passing the guard HORRIBLE!!!!!!!
1st if you pass like that head control
2nd there are way better ways to pass than that
3rd it is easily swept by under hooking the ankles and pulling while bucking forward with the hips so know your friend is on his back what next aikido folks you've been reversed and are on your back with no room to move???

just my .02 take it with a grain of salt
--we are all one--
the one person answering from bjj perspective thinks something un-bjj looks horrible .but i'm not approaching the guard from bjj perspective .it is from the aiki perspective to treat all limbs and appendages as a case for ikyo 1st control .if we think in terms of control techniques we're not trying to pass guard at all ,but dealing with our opponent's response to our first control .this method when dealing with guard position leads readily to submission where as traditional aiki control techniques (though they can make people tap) are an ordinary sequence of arrest ,control techniques .from ikyo you can lead into nikyo ,sankyo ,yonkyo ,irimi and shihonage .in the guard your ikyo turns to either guard pass or toe hold ,heel hold ,knee bar ,figure four leg lock ;true submissions which can debilitate .

Kevin Leavitt
07-13-2005, 04:12 PM
Thanks for the explaination Jason. It gives me alot to think about. I'd be interested in exploring this further. Do you cover this type of thing on your videos?

wendyrowe
07-13-2005, 05:21 PM
Thanks for the explaination Jason. It gives me alot to think about. I'd be interested in exploring this further. Do you cover this type of thing on your videos?
I just rewatched some of the set with your question in mind since I wouldn't want to steer you wrong. After watching it, I'm pretty sure you'd agree the answer is "yes."

Volumes 3 and 4 are the two that deal with matwork. Among other things, Vol. 3 shows a guard pass (the same one he shows at http://venus.secureguards.com/~aikidog-/aikicenter/modules.php?name=AikiClips&op=show&pid=91 but with more detailed discussion and examples) and then shows various techniques to use from there depending on what your opponent does. He also talks about how it's important not to dwell in guard, and to keep your posture upright rather than playing the BJJ fighter's game.

Vol. 4 shows the same guard pass but continues from there into a variety of submissions. For instance, he demonstrates going from that guard pass to a knee bar or hammer lock or neck crank or figure 4 lock. He also demonstrates how to steer your opponent on the mat by using wrist locks to put him where you want him for your next technique.