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p00kiethebear
11-17-2004, 03:30 AM
So I frequently hear stories of shihan and aikidoka that hurt students when they get really pissed off (not to finger anyone specificly but I've heard of Tohei Koichi sensei really beating the s**t out of people on more than one occaision)

I was wondering if O sensei also did this. I've never heard of him ever hurting a student save Chiba sensei's back, but that was an accident wasn't it?

I guess I'm wondering if Ueshiba's students hurt people more often than Ueshiba himself hurt his students.

I know it's kind of a weird question, but i'm curious none the less.

Solarius
11-17-2004, 04:48 AM
As much as I know, Ueshiba didn't do that sort of thing. He did get angry (I've read one of the sensei's writings about how O'Sensei shouted at him when he forgot his Hakama), but I don't think he used Aikido lessons to 'let the steam off'.

Mark Balogh
11-17-2004, 07:46 AM
I have never heard of Koichi Tohei injuring people? He admits in an interview that he lost his rag in a demo and flipped Chiba Sensei because he didn't like the style of ukemi that was being taken. He felt bad, and made sure Chiba Sensei was alright after though.

I believe Gozo Shioda received severe tuition from O'sensei and was hospitalised for 2 weeks after a demo once.

In a personal conversation, someone told me that O'sensei broke an active Shihans back, and that is why to this day he has a subtle upright posture.

Maybe others can share some light on this subject?

grondahl
11-17-2004, 08:09 AM
I believe Gozo Shioda received severe tuition from O'sensei and was hospitalised for 2 weeks after a demo once.


That must have been when O´sensei demonstrated Aikido(aiki-budo?] at the imperial palace, but i only think that Shioda was hospitalized for a week. Shioda was the second uke at the demo. The first one, Yukawa, got his arm broken by O´sensei.

Solarius
11-17-2004, 08:13 AM
So... O'sensei wasn't a saint everybody visualises him?

Chuck.Gordon
11-17-2004, 08:18 AM
So... O'sensei wasn't a saint everybody visualises him?

Nope. He was something of a savant in many ways, but reports of him in his dotage all taken together paint a picture of a funny, quirky, sometimes callous, sometimes deeply caring, ocasionally violent, usually barely understandable old man.

Me, I kinda like that about him.

Chuck

ian
11-17-2004, 09:20 AM
Ueshiba said that he hurt someone's wrist once forcing a technique on a resistant uke and therefore he never forced something again (not sure what book I remember this from). So must have been after the events described above. I had heard he had seriously injured some challengers (not students).

I can imagine gozo shioda being hospitalised if he attacked very hard since sometimes hard attacks usually result in fast throws.

Solarius
11-17-2004, 09:38 AM
Well, nobody's perfect. It's all to easy to let the frustration go during training.

jonreading
11-17-2004, 11:52 AM
In most of my readings, I know that O'Sensei was popular for his temper and he would scold students in training. I never read of students being injured in training, only in demonstration and challenges - most of those were accidents.

The story I heard about his imperial demonstration was that the first uke (Yukawa) was actualy holding back because O'Sensei was fighting a cold at the time; the timing and blending was off because of his timidness.

Aikilove
11-17-2004, 12:38 PM
In aikido shugyo, Shioda wrote that after Yukawas first attack O-sensei threw him so that Yukawa injured his sholder (or elbow can't remember). Therefore Shioda had to take the full 40 min demonstration ukemi, in which he didn't hold back, seing what happend to Yukawa. After this extreme endurance Shioda came down with a severe fever rendering him in bed for 1-2 weeks.

Shioda also wrote that he broke peoples (judokas) elbows with shihonage (using his own sholder as lever) and hijinage (kokyonage) when giving a class to these.

He further wrote that it was a challenger who tried a hip throw on O-sensei at which O-sensei delivered an atemi at the back region (pelvic aria, lower back?) rendering the challenger with a broken back.

I know Chiba has said that one of the things he remember most about O-sensei was his temper. O-sensei would enter the dojo angry like a bee, scolding them severly about not training properly.

aikidoc
11-17-2004, 12:43 PM
I do recall one shihan stating O'Sensei threw him so hard he broke a collar bone when he was younger.

bennettdjr
11-17-2004, 03:21 PM
I think that the thing people tend to forget is that O Sensei was human just like the rest of us. OK he was one of the greatest martial artist to walk this earth (in my opinion) and i have nothing but respect for him. But he was human and as such was subject to the trials and tribulations that everyone else is. I dont think that O Sensei would deliberately hurt someone just as I know my Sensei doesn't mean to hurt me but sometimes when he is demonstrating a technique he does. Accidents happen.
Dave

rachel
11-19-2004, 12:55 PM
I don't think I've ever heard of any of the shihan, (Tohei Sensei or any others), or Ueshiba Sensei seriously injuring a student. Sometimes, they throw students hard to teach them something, or test their ability, but never for the intention of hurting them.Regardless, it's good ukemi practice, right?

Kevin Leavitt
11-19-2004, 01:04 PM
My best sensei I ever had was not above hurting you if you deserved it. By deserving it I mean occassionally I would get full of myself and test my limits against him...if I crossed the line, I would get a look, if I ignored it, I'd usually find myself laying on the floor trying to catch my breath or something.

He never hurt me in a bad way....but did let me know who was the big dog.

That was a different time, and a different situation, and I needed it at that point in my life.

That said, I am now training young soldiers in combative. I take a totally different focus with these guys than I would with a bunch of civilians in a dojo. While I would never seriously hurt them, the expect a certain attitude from me and effectiveness. After all, I am training them for reality and not philosophical reasons. I find myself in many ways having the same attitude that my instructor had.

That said, I am not egotistical or never to I intimidate or talk about kicking ass. I walk very softly, smile, and then only escalate if they push it. It is very disarming to them to see an "old dude" be able to be a nice guy and still be effective....I think this is also important to teach them.

kironin
11-19-2004, 02:49 PM
That said, I am not egotistical or never to I intimidate or talk about kicking ass. I walk very softly, smile, and then only escalate if they push it. It is very disarming to them to see an "old dude" be able to be a nice guy and still be effective....I think this is also important to teach them.


excellent, excellent, excellent!!!

need to clone you a thousand times over :)

Michael Young
11-19-2004, 04:21 PM
I have definitely heard recollections of a particular shihan who consistently injures, not just hurts, his students. I even have it on video (a student got his thumb broken during kumi-jo practice..it was very obvious that the shihan was upset when his student did not turn loose of the jo at the correct time, so....thwack! broken thumb :crazy: ), It is considered part of the training and expected if you become one of his students at his dojo...you will have a bone(s) broken and/or something dislocated at some point in your training. His students will openly tell you this.
As to whether O'Sensei lost his temper and hurt people, I can't say. The impression I get from the stories told, it seems the injuries were usually do to bad ukemi or an overzealous attack during a demo, and not due to O'Sensei being angry and intentionally hurting his students...as for challengers, who knows, injury to his opponents may have been necessary to avoid the next level...death. I wouldn't rule out the possibility of him being a human being though;) , and allowing anger or frustration to get the best of him either. We have to remember he was not just born with Aikido. He spent years studying martial arts that were focused on destroying your attacker, before he developed Aikido. I'd be willing to bet he did his fair share of "crunching" people and challengers in the early years of his learning...he did go to war after all!
My first Shihan, Akira Tohei Sensei, expressed on more than one occasion that there was never any pain (even with techniques like nikkyo) when O'Sensei did technique to him, but it was VERY effective, even when he was trying his best to resist or hit O'Sensei. Saotome Sensei expresses the same in some of his writings. I think the thing to keep in mind is, that whether O'Sensei actually injured his students, rather intentionally or not, is that his ultimate expression of Aikido was to avoid this whenever possible. I speak of the Aikido he developed toward the end of his life, not the earlier days of Aikijujutsu, Aiki-budo etc. before he had fully developed Aikido as a realization of his understanding of universal principles.
I think the hidden question in your query is, is it still Aikido or ethical to injure when you have the skill not to...when the person, whether a student of yours or training partner, has entrusted you with their body? Is it O.K. to allow your anger to get the better of you and express frustration through injuring your training partner or student? Is it acceptable for a Shihan or Instructor to do so? Does it really matter to YOU rather a Shihan or O'Sensei did this? Ultimately you have to live with your actions towards others and your "Karma" is your responsibility.


cha-ching..my 2 cents

Mike

Chuck.Gordon
11-20-2004, 02:15 PM
I think the hidden question in your query is, is it still Aikido or ethical ...

Aikido is neither ethical of unethical. Within the philosophy of aikido (particularly that which has evolved in the past 20 years or so), individual ethics are a great part of what the training in many dojo.

However, aikido is as much a cross-section of humanity as, well, say, the Army. There are idiots who've hung around long enough to gain some cachet, and there are solid, excellent folks who care nothing for the limelight and trudcge along doing aikido for THEM, not caring a whit whether anyone recognizes them when they enter a room. The art is a tool. It's not a panacea.

Quite frankly, it's a tool that can be abused, and IS abused.

There are a few folks in aikido who really oughtn't be off the Prozac or lithium, as it were.

But that's not a condemnation of 'aikido' ... It's a statement of human reality.

Is it O.K. to allow your anger to get the better of you and express frustration through injuring your training partner or student?

No. Never. Does it happen? Hell yeah. Is it justifiable? Maybe, sometimes. Is it RIGHT? Well then, we'd have to be able to unequivocally define 'right' wouldn't we?

My old friend Dennis Hooker told me once that 'someimte you're the breaker and sometimes you're the breakee ..'

This was after an unfortunate incidient in which I'd misjudged a yudansha's ability to take ukemi from a technique I was teaching. He was hurt, I was devastated.

The bottom line is that if you practice a combative discipline (and despite some aikidoka's protestations of non-violence, aikido IS a budo, and therefore a combative discipline -- or it is i the core, despite how it might get taught sometimes), you stand a chance of getting hurt.

Did this shihan or that one intend do do XYZ to his student? Case-by-case. Some shihans are assholes. Some probaly have a beter claim to sainthood that that Teresa chick.

And that's the bottom line. Case-by-case. In the southern US, there a joke that a valid legal defense in a murder trial is "But, yer honer, he just NEEDED killing!"

Some very senior teacher, name escapes me right now, once said of aikido, that even as a pacifist, he found reaosn to chastise the unrepenant from time to time.

Ultimately you have to live with your actions towards others and your "Karma" is your responsibility.

Well, me, I don't believe in karma, but I do believe in personal responsibility.

Chuck

Michael Young
11-20-2004, 05:48 PM
Well, me, I don't believe in karma, but I do believe in personal responsibility.

You say tomayto I say tomahhto. :D

Nice post Chuck, and I agree with much of what you said. Plus-

In the southern US, there a joke that a valid legal defense in a murder trial is "But, yer honer, he just NEEDED killing!"

LMAO!

Please note, I didn't answer any of the questions I posted...I just posted em, the answer is, I think, up to the individual. Also I wrote "Aikido OR Ethical" What are ethics? Are they a personal set of principles developed by each individual or are they an acceptable set of social principles expected by one's society? A little of both? How does Aikido fit into that?
My personal opinion regarding Aikido and this issue: I've heard, as I'm sure most everyone else has, that O'Sensei called it "The art of Peace" and there is a principle called "Agatsu" which I'm sure most everyone knows of, wherein one is expected to try and defeat one's own ego. Where exactly does reacting with anger and frustration and/or purposefully injuring another for the sake of self-gratification fit in? I will answer that one...no where as far as I'm concerned.

I've also heard the expression before that "Aikido is a tool" and I agree with it; however, I tend to think of it as a certain type of tool. Let me use metaphor. I don't think of Aikido as a knife. A knife is designed to either create or destroy, it can cut a person or carve a beautiful sculpture out of wood, for example. It is meant to be used for either creation OR destruction. I don't think Aikido, in its highest form, can be considered like this (again my opinion). I would think of Aikido as a chisel. A chisel is only meant to be used for creating and building, a tool used for positive purpose. Now, a person could use a chisel to cut a person with, but that is definitely not what a chisel is meant to be used for, is it? I think Aikido is very much the same as that chisel...you could use it for the purpose of destruction and harm, but that isn't its purpose.

Best Regards,

Mike