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chrisward
11-13-2004, 12:27 PM
I have spent several years studying Tae Kwon Do and Karate and I wish I had found Aikido long before (no disrespect intended to any other art), however, I know here in the early going of my Aikido training we have been working on wrist grabs exclusively, I know you have to have a starting point for training in any art, but unfortunately in every effort in which I have had to defend myself noone was grabbing my wrist, they were either trying to kick me low, like in the knee or shin, or trying to box me while they bounced around in a circular motion. I can only assume the futher I get along in my training I will learn how to defend myself in these respects? I apprecaite any and all responses.... :ai:

Stethomas
11-13-2004, 12:35 PM
Hi Chris

Im in the same boat mate. Not exactly the answer your expecting but i know what you mean about the grabbing of the wrist' i mean who the hell is gonna try & grab your wrist' in a fight.

Not to worry though because im sure the way our Sensei is teaching us is appropriate, maybe we'll learn all the obvious stuff later.

Don_Modesto
11-13-2004, 01:23 PM
I look at "Similar Threads" at the bottom of the page and I have to wonder where all the prvious threads on the utility of aikido are. Maybe we can combine them and shunt them to the top of the forum like PAG did on e-Budo with other FAQs so we don't have them recurring every two weeks...

Demetrio Cereijo
11-13-2004, 03:24 PM
... but unfortunately in every effort in which I have had to defend myself noone was grabbing my wrist, ...

This is because you don't surf in Hawaii.

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpost.php?p=86358&postcount=68

CNYMike
11-13-2004, 06:48 PM
I have spent several years studying Tae Kwon Do and Karate and I wish I had found Aikido long before (no disrespect intended to any other art), however, I know here in the early going of my Aikido training we have been working on wrist grabs exclusively, I know you have to have a starting point for training in any art, but unfortunately in every effort in which I have had to defend myself noone was grabbing my wrist, they were either trying to kick me low, like in the knee or shin, or trying to box me while they bounced around in a circular motion. I can only assume the futher I get along in my training I will learn how to defend myself in these respects? I apprecaite any and all responses.... :ai:

I've been to women's self defense seminars where they focus on the defense a wrist grab, the idea being an assailant would grab the wrist and punch. So it's a valid attack on it's own. (So's a shirt or shoulder grab; I remember seeing a brawl at a hcokey game where two players grabbed each other's uniforms and were pummeling each other with their other hand.)

Also, a wrist grab is used to practice the same techniques you'd use against a punch, just without the added pressure of a fist flying at you.

As to the people who are boxing or low kicking, yeah this is a LEETLE bit outside Aikido's perview. If you're really worried about it, while continuing Aikido, cross-train in something like Thai Boxing, shoot, or Filipino martial arts, to cover those areas; the latter two will integrate that with grappling. Failing that, go with the responses that come naturally to you; Aikido should work its way into that in time as it becomes part of your muscle memory. If you are continuing with TKD and karate while doing Aikido, keep doing that.

kironin
11-13-2004, 07:30 PM
I look at "Similar Threads" at the bottom of the page and I have to wonder where all the prvious threads on the utility of aikido are. Maybe we can combine them and shunt them to the top of the forum like PAG did on e-Budo with other FAQs so we don't have them recurring every two weeks...

That would be really good!!!

where's the one long one recently on katatetori ?

kironin
11-13-2004, 07:33 PM
As to the people who are boxing or low kicking, yeah this is a LEETLE bit outside Aikido's perview.

I don't agree.

It may be outside some people's training perview but it is certainly not
outside aikido's perview.

kironin
11-13-2004, 07:36 PM
I know here in the early going of my Aikido training we have been working on wrist grabs exclusively,

how early ?

Qatana
11-13-2004, 08:32 PM
Don't think of it as a wrist grab. Think of it a somebody trying to take something out of your hand. Like your keys or your wallet.

L. Camejo
11-13-2004, 08:47 PM
Don't think of it as a wrist grab. Think of it a somebody trying to take something out of your hand. Like your keys or your wallet.

This reminds me of something actually. When someone tried to rob me once this is exactly what he did, went for my top jeans pocket and wallet with a cross handed grab much like katatedori.

The resulting technique was something we do for our very first grading test from the aigamae katatedori attack as well.

Good one Jo.:)

LC:ai::ki:

Janet Rosen
11-13-2004, 09:35 PM
Don't think of it as a wrist grab. Think of it a somebody trying to take something out of your hand. Like your keys or your wallet.
Not to mention, not all encounters are "fights"; men try restraining women as a prelude to both abduction and assault.

chrisward
11-14-2004, 12:20 AM
I am thoroughly looking forward to a long career in Aikido and I certainly appreciate all the feeedback. I just have a lot of question's and I thank you for your assistance.

Dan Gould
11-14-2004, 05:05 PM
What I expect is that when attacked by multiple attackers, one will restrain while the other attacks/checks pockets, etc. So if you become well versed in wrist grabs, you can quickly get out of the restraint and sort him out before the other one can come in.

Yes, I'm a newb, this is just my expectation and speculation, I don't know this for sure. But it's what I tell myself so I don't think they're useless.

As a side note, I've spent the last 8 months countering off of punches in aikijutsu, and it's not all it's cracked up to be, lol. It is useful though to see both sides of that :-)

CNYMike
11-14-2004, 09:19 PM
I don't agree.

It may be outside some people's training perview but it is certainly not
outside aikido's perview.


There seem to be as many types of low-line ---- below the belt ---- kicks as there are for above the belt, yet apart from teaching us a groin kick, the karate dojo I started with didn't address them. It was a hassle when I sparred with friends outside the class who had street experience -- their low kicks screwed me up, although I learned to watch for them in time. Ditto their fakes.

It is true that Aikido seems to focus on going to locks or throws off attacks from kick punch range, and as such, deals with the range a low kick could be coming from. But as you note, not training against them could be a problem.

The good news is getting "off the line" and getting both hands into play is a good idea. Enough against these kind of attacks? No idea. But better than nothing.

CNYMike
11-14-2004, 09:20 PM
I am thoroughly looking forward to a long career in Aikido and I certainly appreciate all the feeedback. I just have a lot of question's and I thank you for your assistance.

You're welcome; happy training!

kironin
11-15-2004, 01:00 AM
It is true that Aikido seems to focus on going to locks or throws off attacks from kick punch range, and as such, deals with the range a low kick could be coming from. But as you note, not training against them could be a problem.


Well, personally, here is where there is an advantage of running your own dojo. ;) I can train against them and train students against them.

I have three areas of instruction: Foundation, Art, and Application.
First, the foundation of our style in the form of ki exercises, aiki taiso, and the testing syllabus of techniques against standard attacks. Second is the art of our style: taigi which allows a cursive expression of the basics by focusing on rhythm, largeness in ki, and connection. Third is the Application of foundation and art in anything (eg. daily life, self-defense.etc). I throw a little bit of the third part in beginner classes when I can to help them make the connection to the foundation or in response to
questions.

For application, I strongly believe in experimentation. If you have a strong foundation, experimentation will often answer many questions. In addition, I have found R&D useful. That's Rob and Duplicate. :D
IMO there have to be some criteria for R&D. It has to be congruent with our aikido philosophy to minimize harm and dissipate aggression in a situation. It has to follow ki and aikido principles taught in the foundation of our aikido.

So I teach classes where we train to deal with low-kicks, a boxer, a smart knife attacker, as well as many other things. It's just part of what falls under application.

Peter Seth
11-15-2004, 05:58 AM
Wrist grasps are to initiate beginners into the concepts of circularity. But if/when you become more aware of concepts you can pre-empt attacks and actually get your attacker to grasp your wrist/elbow/shoulder etc etc by presenting whichever one to him before he has formed his attack.
As he is thinking about attacking you, feign an attack on him, eg: uraken (backfist strike) to the face. If you are in the right position he will automatically raise his arm/hand to defend and most likely grasp what is offered. - and there you go!
This is very simplistic as an example but try it.

With more experience you will become aware that 'techniques' are just a finish to a movement, as a full stop (period) at the end of a sentence. Real 'aiki' is being in the right place (where your attacker does not want you to be), with good 'form', moving in an appropriate direction which will initiate blending and flow, to lead, control and dissipate his energy.

To be a little more frank, when you fight or struggle to apply a technique (with an 'I must apply this/that/a technique' mind), it can sometimes be viewed as 'backup to a b*lls up', with regard to real 'aiki' concepts.

Its a long and wonderful learning curve, which like all curves leads back to the source so don't be in too much of a hurry enjoy the journey.
P.

ian
11-15-2004, 08:58 AM
Many people misunderstand grabs. They perform many functions. Often you grab to force someone down (and restrict kicking by pushing body weight down into their feet i.e. they can't kick because the legs are trying to support them). Grabs are also a good initial training method because the contact allows nage to blend more easily (just as in bokken work it is easier to respond to the feel of someone's sword movement than watching it).

Does aikido work in reality. Yes, I have employed the principles of aikido at least four times in fights, one of which was life threatening (a knife). However don't think that aikido does not involve strikes. If there is an opening to strike, you can strike. Aikido is a set of natural principles, not a set of techniques. There are no rules in real fights, aikido is a way to understand body movement.

P.S. I have had my wrist and throat grabbed simultaneously be seperate people in a multiple attack situation, so grabs do happen. (simultaneous nikkyo and tenchi nage solved that one)

CNYMike
11-15-2004, 11:04 AM
Well, personally, here is where there is an advantage of running your own dojo. ;) I can train against them and train students against them.


Had a hunch you did something like that. ;)


.... For application, I strongly believe in experimentation. If you have a strong foundation, experimentation will often answer many questions. In addition, I have found R&D useful. That's Rob and Duplicate. :D


LOL!



IMO there have to be some criteria for R&D. It has to be congruent with our aikido philosophy to minimize harm and dissipate aggression in a situation. It has to follow ki and aikido principles taught in the foundation of our aikido.

So I teach classes where we train to deal with low-kicks, a boxer, a smart knife attacker, as well as many other things. It's just part of what falls under application.

Sounds :cool: .

Miguelspride67
11-15-2004, 12:02 PM
Isn't katatetori also used because it is a stable and useful introduction to the concept
of ma-ai? It's also an easier beginner's position than the more likely (in a real-life
altercation) mune- or sode-dori.
Hope this helps -
Robin Wilton

thread Why katatetori is used in aikido

xuzen
11-22-2004, 09:23 PM
Hi friends,

Just saw this yesterday on my way back from work. Two young male homo sapiens were at each other near where I work (what the argument was all abt, I don't know). One subject (let's call him subject A) was holding a wooden walking stick and furiously trying to whack the other subject's head (using shomenushi type stroke). Subject B, was holding a motorcycle crash helmet blocking subject A's attack. Subject A repetitively try to hit Subject B whilst he keep blocking it using the helmet. For discussion / argument / good forum practice sake, how would you handle such a situation if you are in (kindly limit the discussion to aikido techniques/principles):-

a) Subject A's position
b) Subject B's position

Please feel free to discuss...

Truly,
Boon.

CNYMike
11-23-2004, 02:41 PM
Hi friends,

Just saw this yesterday on my way back from work. Two young male homo sapiens were at each other near where I work (what the argument was all abt, I don't know). One subject (let's call him subject A) was holding a wooden walking stick and furiously trying to whack the other subject's head (using shomenushi type stroke). Subject B, was holding a motorcycle crash helmet blocking subject A's attack. Subject A repetitively try to hit Subject B whilst he keep blocking it using the helmet. For discussion / argument / good forum practice sake, how would you handle such a situation if you are in (kindly limit the discussion to aikido techniques/principles):-

a) Subject A's position
b) Subject B's position

Please feel free to discuss...

Truly,
Boon.

For both A and B, the same thought popped to mind: With the high line "blocked," go low, as with a groin kick. A could use it offensively, going high with the stick and going low with the kick. B could use it defenseively, blocking high and kicking low.

Of course, if both kick low at the same time, their legs smash together, and you get a stalemate.

The foregoing assumes they are actually fighting. If they are just clowning around, the kick can likewise be faked.

May have more to do with the other things I've done than Aikido (although this would fall under "apply atemi"), but what came to mind.

Shannon Fry
11-30-2004, 09:16 PM
I would recommend that subject B projects the helmet towards subject A (This will distract A) At the same time of projection,subject B would enter subject A resulting in a Shomen-uchi Irimi nage four direction throw.

Shannon

xuzen
11-30-2004, 10:16 PM
I would recommend that subject B projects the helmet towards subject A (This will distract A) At the same time of projection,subject B would enter subject A resulting in a Shomen-uchi Irimi nage four direction throw.

Shannon

During the confrontation, subject A was hitting using a cane walking stick rapidly and as a spectator I feel that the strike was rapid... however the strike doesn't look powerful enough. I guess, a little bravery is in order... if subject B was to be brave enough to take a single hit, enter and do irimi nage or tenkan shiho nage, I guess subject A will be floored.

Another more direct method may be to throw the helmet at subject A's face and proceed quickly to do a mune tsuski aiming at the gut to floor subject A. (Not very aiki though)

Boon.

Adramalek
12-02-2004, 12:47 AM
Hi Chris , as long as you use common sense it will work, for exp: if you practice Aikido and on the bus stop I point a gun at your head, if you just use Aikido your family will miss you this Christmas, but if you pretend to start crying act scared and trembling while am getting comfortable, because you are giving me the response I wanted ,you can put a standing arm bar and disarm me, if am bigger and you start talking and when am listening you knee me on the crotch and then go for a throw , It has a fairly good chance of happening, but if you are talking about taking on a guy who has 2% body fat, that practices boxing and his punches are to fast for you to apply a Kote Gaeshi, or a guy that is just much bigger and stronger, pal use Physics , he will rip your brain out and eat cornflakes out of your skull wile watching Oprah by the time you do something , so CROSS TRAINING IS THE SOLUTION [U] I practice Aikido whenever I can to refine my movements on throws and to help with my Water Techniques in taijutsu, I use Brazilian Jujitsu for ground fighting , and boxing for my striking , even having formal training in tanto jutsu doesn't stop me from calling a fellow instructor in Decuerdsas escrima to polish my Knife , so look at your weaknesses and think like O Sensei , he didn't practice just one type of Jujutsu so Why should you just practice one , why talk in just one language, why have just one girlfriend jeje... OK you understand by now if not you will understand wile waiting for medical attention on the emergency room of some hospital, when you try to get all Seagal on some big dude , always remember Physics apply to us All!!!

Duval Culpepper
12-02-2004, 01:47 PM
I mean, getting Steven Seagal CAN work sometimes though...His meathods aren't completely unfounded.

Adramalek
12-20-2004, 10:28 PM
evileyes Duval my friend you know why they work because Mr. Seagal CONSTRAINED with people who go from Gracie Jujitsu to Jun Fan and Kali with Inosanto (who by the way played the role of sticks in one of his movies) so do the same Duvi man crosstrain oh and by the way ask in Cali about the time the 22 y/old shoot fighter choke out :crazy: Steve boy :yuck: don't believe me just search and thou will see the truth my Aikido friend The Evil Ways will Continue,......... (until my wife tells me to take the garbage out............. but hey!!!!) evileyes

Mark Uttech
12-21-2004, 06:37 AM
[B] The common question: will aikido work? Is a typical common question. The seriousness of that question changes over years of training. Katatetori is the first part of the attack. It is an excellent way to train. It is a way of training your movement while you are being restrained. You can't focus on the restraint, because katate tori is always "more than that." In gassho, tamonmark

Beau
12-21-2004, 07:43 AM
Hello all,

Saito Sensei once said that in a real combat situation aikido will not look anything like aikido in class. He says specifically that it is 99% atemi, the line between omote and ura blurs, and that many of aikido's techniques lose their meaning if atemi is left out. (His tape that accompanies the 5 volume series "Traditional Aikido")
Unfortunately when I was younger and far more stupid (in college =0) I worked the doors at a few of our local bars. Partially for money, but mostly to see if what I was spending 4 days a week and another 3 thinking about and solo training for would work in "real life"...
I found everything that Saito Sensei said to be completely true. I'm an extremely "muscularly" strong individual, but short (5'9''). Me trying to do a beautiful, textbook ikkyo on a 6'5'' out of control, young, in shape college student was rediculous. However, by gradually learning to use the PRINCIPLES of movement that we practiced in class every day, I found breaking up fights, and handling my own to be simple. It never looked anything like class, but the movements were all the same.
I believe there is also much to be learned from true shugyo. Tenacity and mental endurance go a long way in real fighting situations. Many...many times it came down to me being in much better physical and mental condition than the other person.
One more small detail...people get hit in real fights....even us aikidoka...hehehe... Real fights are nasty, dirty, screaming, gouging, biting, pulling, and bloody. The sooner that this is realized and expected, the easier it will be to deal with it in an aiki way. (Just because YOU are training for peace and for the protection of your opponents does NOT mean that they are.)
Yes, MY aikido has worked very well in fights. If I face those who I've trained hard enough to survive against, I will survive...When I face those who are stronger, I will lose...It is as simple as that. Of course, I could walk outside and get hit by a car. (Which I haven't started training for yet) Which is exactly why I don't worry so much about this stuff anymore.

Hope any of this helps...
Beau

Adramalek
12-23-2004, 01:25 AM
Beau I like your thinking man ... you are OK in my book

Zeb Leonard
01-07-2005, 03:12 AM
that was a cool post, and this is my first. hi.

csinca
01-10-2005, 06:58 PM
Beau,

Great post but it brings up a question.
"Saito Sensei once said that in a real combat situation aikido will not look anything like aikido in class. He says specifically that it is 99% atemi, the line between omote and ura blurs, and that many of aikido's techniques lose their meaning if atemi is left out."

Roughly how much time is dedicated to training in atemi?

In most of the dojos and seminars I've visited or attended you are likely to see little if any atemi pratice. To me this seems like a weak link kin the training methods of many a adojo.

Chris

Beau
01-10-2005, 08:10 PM
Chris,

Training in atemi is something that I personally think needs to change with the student base found in modern aikido. From what I understand, back in the days when Saito sensei and the other predominant shihan were young, aikido's students were well versed in other martial arts, therefore eliminating a need to focus on atemi.

I think another reason why instructors are reserved about teaching atemi is that it makes an easy excuse for beginning students. (I don't know how many times...I've done this myself =0)....I've heard someone that couldn't make a technique work say "Yeah, but I could have just hit you) It is probably far more productive in the beginning for people to learn how to properly apply techniques without "softening" uke up first. I also think that there are many instructors now that have never studied atemi themselves, making it impossible for them to teach it properly.

Beau

csinca
01-11-2005, 12:40 PM
Beau,

Thanks for the response. I'm glad to see that at least someone else out there thinks along the same lines! It sounds like you and I are on the same page.

My understanding is that most of O'Sensei's students had some proficiency in other arts so I agree that they would already have gained some skill in atemi. Though I think many people today seem to forget this and believe that all O'Sensei or his deshi did was aikido.

I've also experience the "I could just hit him here" when I have trouble with technique. Here is the difficult line to walk as I agree that to get proficient in the technique you need to work it and learn it.

However, in my personal opinion it would be stupid to not take advantage of other options should you need them. I personally have no problem using a lock to open up striking opportunities. I don't think techniques are really the "goal" of aikido anyway. I see them as tools to train prinicples and options to create more options. But from what I'm seeing from some dojos, techniques are becoming the end goal.

Using ikkyo as an example I know that I sometimes get the uke bent over but then have some difficulty getting them to the ground. If completing an ikkyo is my goal, then I need to learn how to do it while keeping the technique "pure". But if controlling an attacker and ending a threat using the principles I've learned is my goal than I will certainly consider any number of things for this bent-over, semi controlled but oh so exposed attacker.

Chris

Christian Orderud
01-29-2005, 08:49 PM
Hi friends,

Just saw this yesterday on my way back from work. Two young male homo sapiens were at each other near where I work (what the argument was all abt, I don't know). One subject (let's call him subject A) was holding a wooden walking stick and furiously trying to whack the other subject's head (using shomenushi type stroke). Subject B, was holding a motorcycle crash helmet blocking subject A's attack. Subject A repetitively try to hit Subject B whilst he keep blocking it using the helmet. For discussion / argument / good forum practice sake, how would you handle such a situation if you are in (kindly limit the discussion to aikido techniques/principles):-

a) Subject A's position
b) Subject B's position

Please feel free to discuss...

Truly,
Boon.

Well, as I'm a 6th kyu, I won't even try to say what is the best Aikido-technique to apply, but I think that If I where in Subject A's Position, i would stop attacking, and think about what the heck I was doing trying to whack someone with a walking stick in the first place.

If I where in Subject B's position... probably throw the helmet on Subject A, and run. ;)

But I don't really end up in these kind of situations very often. Haven't happened yet, and if I behave, the chances are slim that I will end up in one.(I hope). And isn't avoiding conflict in the first place Aikido too? ;)

David Yap
01-29-2005, 10:09 PM
snip ..One subject (let's call him subject A) was holding a wooden walking stick and furiously trying to whack the other subject's head (using shomenushi type stroke). Subject B, was holding a motorcycle crash helmet blocking subject A's attack. Subject A repetitively try to hit Subject B whilst he keep blocking it using the helmet. For discussion / argument / good forum practice sake, how would you handle such a situation if you are in (kindly limit the discussion to aikido techniques/principles):-

a) Subject A's position
b) Subject B's position

Please feel free to discuss...


Boon,

Subject A - the aggressor with the walking stick must be the guy having the problems. Emotionally=anger, physically=walking stick. Solution=cool off.
Subject B - the guy defending with the crash helmet. Cool guy who did not counter-attacked but parried the strikes with his helmet, maybe giving A the opportunity to cool off - Good aiki technique.

What would I do if I'm B? For a start, my Nolan open-face helmet cost me > than a grant, using my helmet is out of the question. Since A was using the shomenuchi type of strikes, off-line avoidance would suffice. If he had changed to a yokomen strike, I would apply a heavy-handed strike to point on his hand (behind the thumb) causing him to drop the cane. From experience, I think the fight would have ended before it actually begun.

That's just sen.

David

Joezer M.
01-30-2005, 08:00 AM
Aikido doesn't always work in a "real fight"...
One of my sempai once got into a fight with a minibus driver.. The driver attacked and my sempai reacted by putting him in an ikkyo pin... The driver promptly protested (something like: "Hey! Hey! Not like this! Not like this!" :eek: )
Obviously, some people think that if you are "fighting" somebody, you have to trade punches and kicks... So, using silly things like pins and throws doesn't count! :D :D

Regards,
Joezer

CNYMike
01-30-2005, 12:22 PM
^^ LOL! Thanks.

Hormat,

Mas Mike

Kevin Kelly
01-30-2005, 01:52 PM
I know people here are from all over the world and live in different situations, but don't you really get to a point in your life when you don't worry so much about being attacked or in a fight? I know one thing that I have learned in my very short career in Aikido is to be aware of your surroundings and what's going on around you. And as Christian said, "Isn't avoiding conflict part of Aikido too?" I don't think I have been in a fight since I was in the 8th grade. I don't like fighting, but I like Aikido...ALOT. I didn't start Aikido at this late point in my life to learn how to beat people up. I just felt like I had to do something for myself and I'm glad I did. I know other people have their own reasons for doing Aikido, but sheesh, I have seen so many different threads on this forum and others about the same subject that I sometimes think some people are obsessed with it.

Kevin Leavitt
01-30-2005, 02:18 PM
I think it is normal to ponder the martial effectiveness of your training in situations. While it often proves to be a fatal trap type paradigm, it is one we all fall prey to from time to time. This is a martial art and at the base level most of us want to believe that our training will hold up.

What is "fatal", IMHO, is fear, that mainfest itself in "situational training", that is trying to apply aikido, or any martial art, to a particular set of events like a gun point mugging, or a knife point mugging, there are too many variables to consider to adequately prepare yourself for that particular situation.

Also, IMHO, there is not an "art" (aikido) specific response that is appropriate. You use what you have at your disposal.

I do think Aikido or any decent martial art can prepare you to be a better person, carry yourself with more confidence, hone your situational/environmental awareness skills, and prepare you martially to fair much better with conflict. All those things are good.

I think as a western society (U.S.) that one of the things we are grappling with is fear. This is the real enemy in my opinion.

AikiSean!
01-30-2005, 10:16 PM
Outside of the physical aspects of the art, I was curious if put in a situation where you must defend yourself, the Aikido mentallity has been even more a benefactor then a technique? I just recently earned my 7th kyu, and before I started Aikido I reacted a lot of emotion and not off of logic. In my short period of training, I've learned so much mentally. Controlling adreinaline and your "Fight or Flee" instincts seems SO important. I know most arts teach a certain amount of discipline, but to me I think Aikido revolves around it.

mathewjgano
02-22-2005, 09:41 PM
but unfortunately in every effort in which I have had to defend myself noone was grabbing my wrist, they were either trying to kick me low, like in the knee or shin, or trying to box me while they bounced around in a circular motion. I can only assume the futher I get along in my training I will learn how to defend myself in these respects? I apprecaite any and all responses.... :ai:

Hi Chris, I'm sure you've been given great answers by now, but I'd like to chime in if for no other reason than to think about what you just said here.
In a gaurded position with your arm(s) out, often people will try to suppress the lead arm and attack through that area. I've had it done to me. This is a case for wrist techniques. Another example is that if you remove the wrist, the vector of attack is still directed at you, whether it's closed fist or not. You still need to move your body/hara based on this so you aren't in the path of that intention. When asked similar questions, i compare a wrist grab to a relatively low punch. I've been taken down very quickly with a wrist grab (yonkkyo); as quickly as if I had been struck by a powerful punch...it's much like the one-inch-punch concept of generating much power in a short distance.

Dazzler
02-23-2005, 07:08 AM
In a gaurded position with your arm(s) out, often people will try to suppress the lead arm and attack through that area. I've had it done to me. This is a case for wrist techniques..

Its A case.

There was a major thread dealing with grabs to the wrist recently.

While accepting that it is possible for someone to grab in this way I hope I am not alone in seeing katate dori etc as primarily useful for developing distance awareness within safe practice.

As for the general issue ...will aikido work? Yes.

Can we talk about something else now? :crazy:

D

lenna
02-23-2005, 02:46 PM
I have a similar question of the effectiveness of aikido in techniques that require Uke to continue to grab for the wrist. when showing friends or whoever some of these techniques I've asked them to grab my wrist and they go to grab it but don't continue to go for it. so in a real life situation would the attacker continue to go for the wrist or change the attack? I would think they would change the attack instead of following the leading hand

rob_liberti
02-23-2005, 02:53 PM
I'd say then that you need to learn how to move your body in such a way that more than 90% of what you are doing now with your arms can be done instead with your movement and the 10% left of that arm movement is a result of the body movement. Iwork on this every day - every practice. Keep on training...

CNYMike
02-23-2005, 05:28 PM
I have a similar question of the effectiveness of aikido in techniques that require Uke to continue to grab for the wrist. when showing friends or whoever some of these techniques I've asked them to grab my wrist and they go to grab it but don't continue to go for it. so in a real life situation would the attacker continue to go for the wrist or change the attack? I would think they would change the attack instead of following the leading hand

I've developed a rule of thumb over the years that if something pops up in more than one martial art or training program, it's probably important and you should pay attention to it.

I once participated in a women's self defense seminar where one of the techniques practiced against was a wrist grab. I've seen a counter to it in Kali, too, the idea being the other person has grabbed with one hand and is punching with the other one, something Aikido also looks at.

So it's a valid attack IMHO.

L. Camejo
02-23-2005, 08:08 PM
I've developed a rule of thumb over the years that if something pops up in more than one martial art or training program, it's probably important and you should pay attention to it.

I once participated in a women's self defense seminar where one of the techniques practiced against was a wrist grab. I've seen a counter to it in Kali, too, the idea being the other person has grabbed with one hand and is punching with the other one, something Aikido also looks at.

So it's a valid attack IMHO.

Michael is correct imho.

Often we can look at something out of it's intended environment and come to incorrect assumptions. In the dojo even though Uke is grabbing you he is most often not "seriously" attacking you. In the case of the serious attack they often do hold on to either strike you or prohibit you from striking them or hitting with a weapon, so it is a very valid attack imo as well. This also comes from personal experience being attacked as well. Sometimes it's not too healthy to overanalyse things without correctly understanding the conditions under which it is supposed to be happening.

Just my 2 cents.
LC:ai::ki:

Colbs
02-23-2005, 10:47 PM
For those talking about wrist grabs, my instructor often demonstrates how katate dori comes about.

Esentially, it's similar to marote dori, start with a shomen (or similar), nage blocks, uke cuts down nage's hand grabs the wrist, continues the cut and punches nage in the face. By grabbing the wrist and continuing the cut you pull nage down into your punch, which makes them easier to hit and puts their weight in a spot where their hips are hard to engage.

The point at which uke grabs the cut down hand is the point that nage can engage techniques from a wrist grab. For berevity and to make timing easier, in class we usually just start from this point statically, but uke should still have engaged hips and be trying to drive nage's weight down so they can't use their hip's easily.

Bill Danosky
02-23-2005, 11:09 PM
One of my sempai showed me "The Aikido Attack" technique the other night: You point your finger in the face of your opponent and voila- Katate waza! :D

Bronson
02-23-2005, 11:12 PM
If I see someone put their hand in a fire and get burned I don't need to put my hand in the fire to know it's hot.

In our dojo we are lucky enough to have several police officers and a gentleman who works in the state mental hospital (he probably has the most real life technique experience of anyone I've met). They ALL tell me that wrist grabs (with and/or without striking with the other hand), two handed front chokes, collar/clothing grabs, etc are common "real world" attacks. The people attacking aren't usually taking a fighting stance and trying to "duke it out"...they are often enraged and fully commited to your immediate destruction.

When they tell me it happens I believe them.

One of the cops that used to train with us said that in his experience when people have "attacker mind" they behave a lot like an attacking dog i.e. they will "attack" the first thing they come to. So if you stick your hand in their face they usually won't just walk into it but will deal with it in some way...either by attempting to knock it away to get to your body or they'll grab onto it in order to control your body.

Again, I believe him.

As for asking your friends to grab your wrist so you can show them the technique....they aren't, in my experience, attacking. They usually don't give any energy or even attempt to have any type of "attacker mind". The one time a friend actually threw a strike at my head like he was trying to damage me I almost dropped him on the back of his skull (we both ended up falling as I tried to catch him as I didn't have nearly the skill needed to slow it down once I'd started).

Anyway, just my thoughts. Yours can, and probably should, vary.

Bronson

jss
02-24-2005, 10:01 AM
I have a similar question of the effectiveness of aikido in techniques that require Uke to continue to grab for the wrist. when showing friends or whoever some of these techniques I've asked them to grab my wrist and they go to grab it but don't continue to go for it. so in a real life situation would the attacker continue to go for the wrist or change the attack? I would think they would change the attack instead of following the leading hand

As has been indicated by others on this thread: if an attacker grabs your wrist, it's interesting for him to keep holding on to it, because he then has some control over the arm (less chance of being hit) and he can feel what the defenfer is doing and how he is moving (to some extent). Besides that it is quite difficult to change the direction of a committed attack in such a way that it is still a decent attack and during good aikido technique the attacker won't have the time to consider letting go of the wrist or not.
However, if the attacker does let go of your wirst, you should be in the more advantageous position (thanks to good aikido-movement) and adapt to the circumstances. One possibility is a straight entering movement to the attacker's center combined with an atemi of the hand the attacker was holding.

Of course, demonstrations on friends are quite difficult, because you don't want to hurt them, but you do want to show something.

Mark Tennenhouse
02-24-2005, 10:20 AM
Don't lose your attitude of questioning and keep other arts in mind as you practice Aikido. It's a deep art with many practical techniques hidden a little beneath the surface. Most Aikidoka have very little practical experience handling resistant opponents and realistic situations because Aikido (in general)has practically no competitive practices. This is very unlike other combat arts such as Judo,Wrestling, Boxing. Many aikidoka simply don't understand the practical side and are unable to give good honest questions like these a simple clear answer. They end up spouting theories and philosophy which is not what you need.
Watch what happens in realistic fights like the matches in the UFC, other mixed martial arts competitions, boxing, wrestling and sumo. What you'll notice is that striking is only a small part of the contest. Think of Sumo and the UFC. They both allow hard smashes to the face and body. Yet in such realistic fights, after a few seconds of face strikes, the fighters end in a clinch. Fighting from a clinch involves grabbing the biceps, wrists and shoulders. If either fighter loses control at such short range, one of them is going to get punched in the face, shoved in the throat or tackled at the legs. So, the answer to why bother with wrist grab techniques is, you have to control the opponent's arms. Either he grabs you to prevent punches or you grab him. In either case, short range fighting ABSOLUTELY requires control of the arms thru holding at one of the 3 major points: the wrist, bicep or shoulder. Any technique that works from a wrist grab works almost exactly the same from a bicep and shoulder grab.
The next thing to understand is how to best defend yourself when a much stronger person grabs your arms. Let me tell you what happens in every grappling art like Judo and Wrestling when the other guy controls the grip. You can't move or use any technique. He can shove you backwards into a wall (like boxers corner a guy), jerk you downwards (for kicks to the face), jerk you forwards (for leg tackles) or just jerk you forward and restrain you from behind. In short, wrist grabs are a way to practice how to control the opponent's force. Defending against strikes is handled by forcing the opponent into a clinch.
I didn't learn these lessons from Aikido. I learned them by practicing other arts. Then over time, I began to look more carefully at the drills and ideas in Aikido. Most Aikidoka don't understand these kinds of ideas because they've only spent time practicing Aikido. Such people, including so called "Masters" are good demonstrators and sources of knowlege about AIkido. But they are not good at showing how to use Aikido against experienced, powerful, resistant fighters or against street situations. It was said that Ueshiba didn't accept students that hadn't practiced another martial art. That was quite a correct idea because Aikido isn't such an easy thing to understand at first.
I ended up discovering so many things lacking in traditional Aikido that now I practice what I call Short Range Aikido. It's based on Wrestling blended with Aikido. It's all about using Aikido in purely practical ways to handle boxers, wrestlers, and ground fighters. It has no religious "stuff" mixed in. Yet, I mostly stick to the Aikido's principles of using harmless techniques to overcome my opponents.
Remember ..Don't throw out the baby with the bath water..



Aikido by itself is very hard to understand. The wrist grab question is just one of many other important questions that must be answered if the art is to be used in a practical manner just like Judo, Karate, Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, or any other practical martial art. Aikido should be held to the EXACT same standard as any other martial art.

Bronson
02-24-2005, 12:37 PM
Hmmm, I wouldn't say that videos of any sporting match are equivalent to a "real world" fight. Now let me just put out my opinion that fighting and self defense are not the same thing. In a fight BOTH people have chosen to fight, whatever happens to them is their own fault because they chose to be there. In a self defense situation one person attempts to harm the other requiring the person attacked to defend themselves in a way that affords them the earliest opportunity to escape. Big difference.

Anyway I did a Google search for "fight videos" and found a couple. :D

Advisory for language and of course violence. You'll want to have some type of pop-up blocker on too.

#1 (http://media.skoopy.com/vids/vid_00456.wmv)

#2 (http://www.compfused.com/directlink/257/)

#3 (http://www.muchosucko.com/video-doubleteam.html)

Notice that the fights are between kids....that's because fighting is childish ;)

Maybe Dave Organ can post the clip he has of a real self defense situation. It involves a woman being stomped to death for what's in her purse. It is quite honestly one of the most frightening/disturbing things I've seen.

Bronson

mathewjgano
02-27-2005, 08:47 PM
Its A case.

There was a major thread dealing with grabs to the wrist recently.

While accepting that it is possible for someone to grab in this way I hope I am not alone in seeing katate dori etc as primarily useful for developing distance awareness within safe practice.

As for the general issue ...will aikido work? Yes.

Can we talk about something else now? :crazy:

D

LOL! Yes, it is A case. As for katatedori being used primarily for distance awareness within safe practice, I'd say all forms of attack could be described in exactly the same way. Yonkkyo is a highly effective technique when someone knows how to do it properly, whether on the mat or otherwise.
As for talking about something else...there are many threads for many people to discuss. If a topic doesn't suit your taste, may I suggest you not bother yourself with it. I just arrived here and so for me, this topic is new. ;)

mathewjgano
02-27-2005, 09:08 PM
It never looked anything like class, but the movements were all the same.

I agree...in class, usually everyone is a lot more relaxed than off the mat "fights." This changes the feel quite dramatically unless you have the most splendid sense of timing. I've always been the smallest of my friends, most of which thought the idea of a good time was getting into fights. Go against a wrestler, for example, and you'll often notice the movements have a much shorter range and so instead of those long, beautifully drawn out stretches, you'll see very quick and dynamic explosions of motion or you'll simply slip their hold and have to start all over again. In those quick little explosions, I've found the "hinge-effect" to be a particular thing to be wary of. I have performed a corner-dropping motion (improperly, I might add) only to find the other side of the body swinging around at twice the velocity as the last attack. This is why it's always important to be mindfull of the center (the "hinge) of your attacker, so you can stay inside that naturally induced action and throw or pin or whatever your subsequent action may be.

Dazzler
02-28-2005, 10:08 AM
LOL! Yes, it is A case. As for katatedori being used primarily for distance awareness within safe practice, I'd say all forms of attack could be described in exactly the same way. Yonkkyo is a highly effective technique when someone knows how to do it properly, whether on the mat or otherwise.
As for talking about something else...there are many threads for many people to discuss. If a topic doesn't suit your taste, may I suggest you not bother yourself with it. I just arrived here and so for me, this topic is new. ;)

My point matthew is that there are already many threads of this nature. I find them a little repetitive and the only way I can indicate this is to say so.

I have tried to send cosmic ki messages but clearly have not mastered this yet.

Respectfully

D

CNYMike
02-28-2005, 02:30 PM
LOL! Yes, it is A case. As for katatedori being used primarily for distance awareness within safe practice, I'd say all forms of attack could be described in exactly the same way .....

I have my own theory about another reason for katatedori. Basically -- and I'm oversimplifying this -- when you get slightly closer than arm's reach of the other person's torso, close enough that your front foot is even with uke's, you are starting to get close enough that your eyes are useless for detecting an attack; even if you can see what's coming, by the time your brain processes what your eyes have seen, it will already be too late. That's why touch sensitivity becomes more important, and why Chinese systems do things like chi sao. Grapplers, who get body to body, also have the issue where they can't see what's going on, so they have to go by feel.

WRT Aikido, while you frequently START at punching range if not farther away, even when doing katatedori, you frequently go to an angle or a range where your eyes are taken out of the equation. Muneteski kotegaeshi is a good example -- if you do a big tenkan that turns your back to uke, you can't see what's going on; your only sensory input if uke has another trick up his or her sleeve is the connection between your hands. That's it! You'd better learn to use it.

So on top of (A) representing a strike and (B) being a valid attack on its own, I think that (C) katate-dori is useful because it fosters the idea of having an attachment to your parnter without making a big deal out of it. Certainly, the idea that your centers are connected bears that out.

It also implies that a nage who loses his grip on uke during a technique is in serious trouble. That said, I don't know if this is valid or not.

But there's that idea.

Please let me know if it makes sense .... ?

:)

L. Camejo
02-28-2005, 06:40 PM
So on top of (A) representing a strike and (B) being a valid attack on its own, I think that (C) katate-dori is useful because it fosters the idea of having an attachment to your parnter without making a big deal out of it. Certainly, the idea that your centers are connected bears that out.

It also implies that a nage who loses his grip on uke during a technique is in serious trouble. That said, I don't know if this is valid or not.

Good point Michael. I'd even go so far as to say that even when we have favourable conditions for visual detection we should aim to gain "hands on"" as quickly as possible when we close the distance on our partner. I read somewhere about the amount of frames per second required to fool the sense of sight as compared to the amount of pulses per second required to fool the sense of touch. The sense of touch was extremely much more difficult to be fooled from the research. It was done by folks developing force feedback controllers for video games. This indicates that it may actually be more accurate than sight in detecting very subtle stimuli, all things being equal.

The idea you gave for touch and sensitivity awareness is probably why techniques from grabs are practiced from beginner to expert level in Aikido training as well. It's our way of feeling the movement of our partner to be more in tune and figure out the best technique based on movement. I don't think training from grabs alone will ever develop the sensitivity skills one gets from something like Chi Sau or even Tegatana Awase, but it does start one on the path to understanding how movements affect each other and finding optimum methods to do so through sensitivity.

Just my 2 cents.
LC:ai::ki:

mathewjgano
02-28-2005, 10:14 PM
My point matthew is that there are already many threads of this nature. I find them a little repetitive and the only way I can indicate this is to say so.

I have tried to send cosmic ki messages but clearly have not mastered this yet.

Respectfully

D

I understand. I assumed your message was implying I shouldn't have responded in the vein I did because you were saying it was redundant. Your final remark, asking to talk about something else, reenforced this idea in my mind. Sorry I misunderstood you.
Keep working on those cosmic ki messages.
Bambatte!
Take care,
Matt

mathewjgano
02-28-2005, 10:17 PM
But there's that idea.

Please let me know if it makes sense .... ?

:)

I think that was beautifully said! I wish I were so articulate!
Take care,
Matt

PeterR
02-28-2005, 11:53 PM
Wrist grabs make a lot of sense when you consider two equally skilled lightly armed opponents fighting - the context of most jujutsu of which Aikido is one particular form.

I find that in resistance work (both Judo and Aikido) getting hold of the wrist is a very common tactic.

Dazzler
03-01-2005, 06:52 AM
Looks like the wrist thread is back with a vengeance...

I guess its down to style....my aiki background uses this for developing distance at an earlier stage and later as a tool to develop awareness and use of centre through the point of contact. Pretty much along the lines as eloquently stated by Michael.

My vale tude experience rarely saw wrist grabs from standing, to me there was more trapping and locking on the arm and elbow, but I can see their relevance if you come from a background of using competition as a basis for development particulary what I know as Tomiki perhaps.

I'll adjust my original statement to say that within my own experience this is practiced to mainly promote distance awareness and to give an opportunity to study relative positions and body movement dynamics rather than as a direct method of assault.

I'll accept that for others it can be used differently...see previous threads for the full gen on this.

Cheers

D

CNYMike
03-06-2005, 12:03 AM
..... I don't think training from grabs alone will ever develop the sensitivity skills one gets from something like Chi Sau or even Tegatana Awase....

I wasn't sure of that myself; you're probably right on that.

but it does start one on the path to understanding how movements affect each other and finding optimum methods to do so through sensitivity.

Just my 2 cents.
LC:ai::ki:

Got yer money's worth, I think.

Bill Danosky
03-06-2005, 09:19 AM
I don't see why there's so much controversy over how "real world" katate techniques are. I have seen a lot of fights break out from shoving and sort-of standing grapples. One person shoves or "comes at" the other, the defender puts up his hands, and there you go.

Ki No Nagare
03-29-2005, 12:07 PM
Hmmmm.....well....my opinion on this one is that katate dori is more a stepping stone for the tsuki's. You train the movements so you can see that you do the exact same thing when somebody wants to punch you.
In a real fight between 2 men....it is very unlikely to be holding someone's wrist....
That is why katate dori is mostly trained go no geiko. Because it has little real Martial worth.

In my dojo we call go no geiko the ice form. Than we go to the next 'level' the water form, ju no geiko where the movement is fluent (ki no nagare). And than the last 'level' of training ryu no geiko the gas form....where it is not sure who began the attack.....

So when you get grabbed by someone......your Aikido is not 100% because that grab could've been the same as a punch, and you don't try to do a technique when you've already been punched....

So do not think of every thing to be realistic....more as something you have to do to get the technique right.

Correct me if somebody thinks I am wrong....I came here to learn :cool:

Kevin Leavitt
03-29-2005, 12:40 PM
Stijn,

Not sure I am really following exactly what you are saying, so forgive me if I assume or misunderstand your post.

I am doing alot of Mixed Martial Arts/BJJ style fighting right now in my training. One thing I am finding works fairly well on opponents is to approach them in a judo fashion, offering my hands sort of. More times than not they will grab or attempt to control my arms moving towards the clinch. Using kokyo style motion I am able to reverse the grab in a downward facing hand and grasp their wrist. Then, using a slight tenkan I enter into a classic judo style arm bar with my arm over top of theirs. From there, I either ride the arm down, or more often than not they consolidate on the arm to protect it and I reverse tenkan into a classic kotegaesh, taking them to the mat. From there I mount them and hold a decent hiji gatami until they tap or if not that I go into something else from the mount.

Most people I roll with now on a regular basis have learned not to even try and grab my arms and will even walk backwards and try to fight me from a distance instead of entering. that leaves them punches, kicks, and then moving to a quick shoot...but that is another story.

It may not look like good aikido, but the principles are all there, and I have personally found that wrist (kote) techniques to be very useful and applicable.

Tim Gerrard
03-30-2005, 10:52 AM
Although they do build into more complex, powerful attacks, a wrist grab is still an attack. If something happens in pub/street etc, and your opponent grabs your wrist, you'll have experience receiving that attack. Better to have practiced from this and have a response other than, "Oh SH*T! Now he's attached to me and I'm gonna have to beat him to death" :D

T
They still confuse the hell out of me though. :confused:

Hardware
03-30-2005, 09:42 PM
We sort of get into a mindest that techniques involving the wrist begin from katate dori - or something similar where someone attempts to control us by grabbing our wrist. Given the right situation, what prevents you from grabbing their wrist and transitioning into a technique, such as kote gaeshi or shiho nage? Food for thought?

In the situation posed by Xu Wenfung, Subject B should have put the helmet on his head. That way it protects his melon while freeing both hands to fight. Just my opinion.

samurai_kenshin
04-07-2005, 11:41 AM
As to the people who are boxing or low kicking, yeah this is a LEETLE bit outside Aikido's perview. If you're really worried about it, while continuing Aikido, cross-train in something like Thai Boxing, shoot, or Filipino martial arts, to cover those areas; the latter two will integrate that with grappling. Failing that, go with the responses that come naturally to you; Aikido should work its way into that in time as it becomes part of your muscle memory. If you are continuing with TKD and karate while doing Aikido, keep doing that.
as it turns out i've seen a match between Kung-Fu and Aikido and for anyone who thinks aikido won't work against kicks i can tell you the aikido guy excecuted a near perfect tsuki kotegaishi on the Kung-Fu guy's foot. That was also the fastest spin on a high fall i've ever seen.

Many people also may not know (for lack of appropriate classes ((not bashing any sensei))) that the concept of moving off the line as seen in Aikido weapons training ca be used with punchyes and kicks (unless you are facing an experianced Thai Boxer...then you should run because i saw ong bak and i'm afraid of that guy now...) :ai::ki::do: all the way!

Kevin Leavitt
04-07-2005, 01:36 PM
We sort of get into a mindest that techniques involving the wrist begin from katate dori - or something similar where someone attempts to control us by grabbing our wrist. Given the right situation, what prevents you from grabbing their wrist and transitioning into a technique, such as kote gaeshi or shiho nage? Food for thought?

In the situation posed by Xu Wenfung, Subject B should have put the helmet on his head. That way it protects his melon while freeing both hands to fight. Just my opinion.

When I am rolling in my MMA hardcore stuff I grab wrist constantly. Judoka are very adept and doing this I am finding. If nothing else you can use it as anchor point and gradually move up uke's body to lapel grab or upper sleeve grab for a koshinage, osotogari are iriminage.

Dazzler
04-08-2005, 07:58 AM
When I am rolling in my MMA hardcore stuff I grab wrist constantly. Judoka are very adept and doing this I am finding. If nothing else you can use it as anchor point and gradually move up uke's body to lapel grab or upper sleeve grab for a koshinage, osotogari are iriminage.

Grabbing the wrist is an option in some circumstances...especially competitions where both competitors are trying not to concede an inch and you need to try every angle to close the gap.

However perhaps the issue with wrist grabs is how you use them in your personal training.

If you are using them as part of a development process working up to more challenging attacks....or whether you are using them within an attack or resisting an attack then you will have a different view on this.

As long as you don't confuse the two and start fighting your uke as he takes you wrist....or even worse...take two deep breaths and lower your centre as some bar room brawler grabs you and pulls you in to meet his five head... then no harm done

Happy friday!

D

samurai_kenshin
04-08-2005, 11:06 AM
Grabbing the wrist is an option in some circumstances...especially competitions where both competitors are trying not to concede an inch and you need to try every angle to close the gap.

However perhaps the issue with wrist grabs is how you use them in your personal training.

If you are using them as part of a development process working up to more challenging attacks....or whether you are using them within an attack or resisting an attack then you will have a different view on this.

As long as you don't confuse the two and start fighting your uke as he takes you wrist....or even worse...take two deep breaths and lower your centre as some bar room brawler grabs you and pulls you in to meet his five head... then no harm done

Happy friday!

D
:straightf

Kevin Leavitt
04-08-2005, 12:43 PM
Grabbing the wrist is an option in some circumstances...especially competitions where both competitors are trying not to concede an inch and you need to try every angle to close the gap.

However perhaps the issue with wrist grabs is how you use them in your personal training.

If you are using them as part of a development process working up to more challenging attacks....or whether you are using them within an attack or resisting an attack then you will have a different view on this.

As long as you don't confuse the two and start fighting your uke as he takes you wrist....or even worse...take two deep breaths and lower your centre as some bar room brawler grabs you and pulls you in to meet his five head... then no harm done

Happy friday!

D

Very good point!

xuzen
04-09-2005, 02:35 AM
Bang! You are dead :dead: . No it doesn't work.

Boon, who is very sad it doesn't work, :( :( :(

Daniel Blanco
04-16-2005, 06:44 PM
The answer to everyone question is yes aikido does work in this art the more you train the faster you will find an opening so you can take attacker off balance put him in a nice strong aiki hold and send him away from you , or you can stay close and pin him for submission/complance. Aikido has proven postive more than once and helps me in my police work .

Daniel Blanco
04-16-2005, 06:48 PM
Aikido is not just about wrist and arm grabs, those who question this art need to train more so they can learn more. Train and you shall see.

bratzo_barrena
04-20-2005, 02:10 PM
Will Aikido really work?

Is a question I've asked myself many times. And the answer is, yes, it will. The second questions one should ask is MY AIKIDO will work?, well that depends on your level of training and your opponent(s)' level.

It's very common to read a question about a specific attack, or a specific technique taught in a aikido dojo at think how this would work against such or such attack.
well, thinking of the aikido techniques you train every class just as a series of standard responses to specific attacks is very limited. The way aikido is trained isn't exactly to develop a range of techniques for every possible situation imaginable, that would limit training to your imagination, what would aikido do in situations you can't imagine? Aikido techniques are trained to learn principles of body mechanics and structure, angles, timing, relationship between centers, etc, which are principles one can apply to any situation, yes the one you imagine, and the ones you don't.
Once you master this principles and apply them properly, anything you do is aikido. Sometimes what you do will be recognized as a technique you practice in class, sometimes will be something that just arose in the moment, not a "recognizable technique" per se.
But if it follows the principle, yes it's aikido.

AaronFrancher
04-21-2005, 07:31 PM
Will Aikido really work?

Is a question I've asked myself many times. And the answer is, yes, it will. The second questions one should ask is MY AIKIDO will work?, well that depends on your level of training and your opponent(s)' level.



I liked this response, and i would like to add that most of the time the person you'll end up combating will be much less skilled than you. especially if you're dedicated to your training.

I'm not very skilled in FORMAL aikido, but the self-defence techniques are my focus of study. I am formally trained in Taekwondo, but we teach self-defence techniques from several different arts. The combination of Aikido and Judo techniques create a powerful arsenal that I have had to use only once. Since then, I use the philosophies that are based from aikido and Jeet Kune Do to keep myself from having to combat anyone.

Nathan Gusdorf
04-24-2005, 09:53 PM
I am a 6th kyu in Seidokan Aikido. I do not have time to cross train however I do believe that Aikido works. I practice because I like it and for all the other benefits of training in addition to self-defense. I do want to be able to defend myself but I don't expect to be able to do so soon because of the nature of Aikido. In my opinion one of the best benefits of Aikido is that you don't severely injure your attacker. If you effectively defend yourself by allowing your attacker to fall on his own accord then you have not committed battery.

I read a post a while ago about someone who applied a harsh sankyo and broke someones arm and had to attend anger management for a year or something. Seidokan is especially peacfeul, and if you actually dont strike your opponent then legally you are much less liable for any harm that should result. But of course someone is going to say that lawyers and lawsuits have gotten out of hand and such and that you should be able to use any means necessary to defend yourself. Well I could argue that point for weeks but the point is that for the current system Aikido is particularaly useful.

My only question is about boxers and kickers. I will admit to not having read this entire thread so if this has been answered someone tell me. But so far I haven't seen a complete answer as to how to apply Aikido to these scenarios. I dont plan to get into any fights, especially with a boxer or someone whos especially skilled in any martial art. But solely out of curiosity how can you apply an Aikido technique to a fast kick or a quick, pulled punch?

CNYMike
04-25-2005, 01:42 AM
I am a 6th kyu in Seidokan Aikido .....

HEY! I did Seidokan bck in the '80s under Sensei Jim Wallace in Ithaca, NY; he's been at Colgate for some years. Glad to finally bump into another Seidokan person.

..... But solely out of curiosity how can you apply an Aikido technique to a fast kick or a quick, pulled punch?

The question came up a few months ago in this thread:

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6183

Hope this helps.

Kevin Leavitt
04-25-2005, 02:22 AM
Nathan:

Boy, over the years these topics go round and round! It is a relevant and good questions though, and I find it helpful and therapeutic to discuss so here goes!!!

I am now training with the Army Combatives program in which we really work hard at developing what we consider to be "core skills" dealing with "reality" we don't have the liabiilty issues to deal with so I find we will go at it much harder than I have in a civilian setting. So here is my experiences coming from a traditional martial arts background of karate and aikido.

Certainly aikido principles apply. They always do. The only way you are going to tell what works and doesn't work against real punches and kicks in a real scenario is to practice them and figure it out for yourself. Will it look like what most typically consider aikido, probably not, but sometimes yes! There are so many variables!

The important thing to remember is to keep your training in perspective. Most aikido dojos train under hombu's philosophy (aikido is a "do" based art), so the endstate is not self defense or scenario based training, more along the lines of self improvement thorugh the methodology. Certainly the principles are there.

makuchg
04-25-2005, 10:03 AM
Very well said Kevin.

Aikido is as effective a form of self-defense as any. Many people debated the effectiveness of grappling vs. kicking and punching until the UFC series began in the early 90's. Now the effectiveness of one style over another is the rave. From what I have seen (I wish I could remember the source) about 5 or 6% of people try a martial art, of those, only about 20% stick with it long enough to reach some level of competency. So roughly 1% of the population. Now we look at most martial arts teaching avoidance as the first line of defense and the idea of being attacked by a skilled martial artist is remote.

So the real question is does your training prepare YOU for confrontations? If not, and that is your goal, why are you still training there? Realistic training is available, as is spiritual-focused training. You have both ends of this spectrum and everything in between. A practitioner must find a school that fits their needs. If self-defense is a concern and you are uncertain of your style's effectiveness, discuss your concerns with your instructor, they will most likely be able to help you.

Mark Tennenhouse
04-30-2005, 02:17 AM
Aikido can be made to work if it is practiced differently. But, I've never seen a single school or Aikido style practice in a practical manner. In general, Aikido schools don't practice against realistic striking. They don't practice against realistic clinch tie up situations either. They don't practice with realistic power, speed and resistance from the opponent..Basically, they don't practice the kind of fighting that occurs in reality..It's just not taught or thought about that way unfortunately..
This is not a criticism of Aikido. It is a criticism of the way that instructors have taught it. It simply is not practiced in a realistic practical manner.
So, what is needed, for starters, is to add some boxing drills and some tie up drills into Aikido. This way, Aikidoka could learn and train against realistic attacks like other sport combat arts. This will cause Aikido techniques to change slightly and become smaller and more effective.
For example, wrestlers, BJJ fighters and boxers practice against realistic resistance. If a little striking were added to the kinds of free sparring that wrestlers do, that would be a practical level of realism...
Even though boxing isn't a completely realistic combat sport, the skills acquired from learning to box translate very well. Wrestling and groundwork (BJJ) skills also translate almost perfectly for usage in most any kind of realistic situation. The reason these arts work so well against realistic attacks is because they are trained realistically against a combative opponent.
So, to make Aikido usable, it HAS to be practiced in a more honest, realistic way. This means Aikido techniques have to be trained against realistic resistance, at close range, against common strikes and real grabs and holds.
Also, plenty of free sparring is needed to develop any kind of combative skill. Just like any other sport, the only way to develop effective technique is to train against a resisting opponent.
It is important to develop and understand how to use Aikido against real attacks. By real I mean simple things that actually happen in fighting like strong shoves, jabs, swings and hook punches, headlocks, tackles, body holds from behind, collar grab and punch situations etc..
I've been testing and developing a version of Aikido that works against this exact kind of realistic resistance from a skilled opponent. I call it short-range Aikido. It's very similar in many ways to standard aikido but is practiced very differently. Also, we train against what is practiced in sport combat and in the Mixed Martial arts matches. In other words, we train Aikido with gradual resistance against skilled opponents that use boxing attacks, wrestling attacks and ground attacks.
In order to make Aikido work against realistic attacks, you need to understand the techniques from a simpler more practical point of view. There are some very interesting things we've discovered.
I'll have some videos and a bunch of articles up very soon about these things at http://www.ShortRangeAikido.com..
Also, I'll be at the AikidoJournal Seminar in May. I'll be teaching many of the things I mentioned in this article..You can bet it's going to shock some people when they realize how effective Aikido can be. Most people have only learned Aikido as a cooperative smooth drill. They have never seen it used against skilled attackers using boxing, wrestling..

Sincerely,
Mark Tennenhouse

Don_Modesto
04-30-2005, 10:16 AM
I've never seen a single school or Aikido style practice in a practical manner. In general, Aikido schools don't practice against realistic striking.

I've never seen a single school of anything, besides the stuff I've read about in Peyton Quinn's books, which approaches self-defense in a "realistic" manner. Karate people square off ("You have insurrted my famirry and..."), judo people complacently straddle opponents after a throw ("Grab my family jewels, please!"), Gracie folks go to the mat (another concession to sport in a world where the enemy will likely have friends--which Gracies themselves acknowledge...)

PeterR
05-01-2005, 03:49 AM
Also, I'll be at the AikidoJournal Seminar in May. I'll be teaching many of the things I mentioned in this article..You can bet it's going to shock some people when they realize how effective Aikido can be. Most people have only learned Aikido as a cooperative smooth drill. They have never seen it used against skilled attackers using boxing, wrestling.
Strange I don't see you listed as any of the instructors.

Jorx
05-01-2005, 04:50 AM
Mark - then it wouldn't be Aikido anymore... It'd be the same as any MMA gym because you would have to give up small joint locks etc for realistic uncooperative training.

Anyway... Gracies on multiple attackers: "Against multiple attackers I have multiple brothers" ...I don't recall who exactly was it.

And that the ground is a bad place to be in in a streetfight is NO excuse to NOT to train realistic groundfighting.

takusan
05-01-2005, 06:05 AM
Will Aikido work?

Yes.

Now get back to training.

Don_Modesto
05-01-2005, 11:09 AM
Anyway... Gracies on multiple attackers: "Against multiple attackers I have multiple brothers"

LOL!

Thanks.

rob_liberti
05-02-2005, 10:08 AM
And that the ground is a bad place to be in in a streetfight is NO excuse to NOT to train realistic groundfighting.Just curious, what is the difference in your mind between a "reason" and an "excuse"?

Personally, I do some groundfighting because it is fun and interesting to me. I hope my son is interested in it as it is likely that he'll be in a school-yard scuffle some day (he's not yet 2 years old yet). However, I don't see me ending up on the ground in the parking-lot of the grocery store anytime soon, or in prison, etc.

Rob

CNYMike
05-02-2005, 04:29 PM
.... Aikido can be made to work if it is practiced differently ....

I just spent the weekend at a seminar with Sifu Francis Fong, who's a Wing Chun teacher based in Atlanta. His main theme was how breathing and moving from "low diaphram" and other Wing Chun principles can be adapted to different situations, including typical grappling situations. Sound familair?

This leads me to agree with the argument that Aikdo's principles can be applied against things like boxing-style attacks and grappling situations. Some people are probably already playing with this. At the same time, we should be true to what makes Aikido unique, or it won't really be Aikido anymore.

CNYMike
05-02-2005, 04:36 PM
.... Personally, I do some groundfighting because it is fun and interesting to me .....

Yeah, the one disappointment of this weekend was thanks to a bum left shoulder, I couldn't play as much as I wanted to with the grappling techniques as I wanted to. I'd hardly say I'm a good grappler, but it's fun to train in.

Barrett Condy
05-02-2005, 09:29 PM
I'm new to Aikido, but I've done a lot of thinking about whether Aikido is an effective method of self defense. It occurs to me, and someone earlier in the thread seemed to agree, that Aikido is practiced using stylized attacks to teach the fundamentals of body mechanics. It's highly unlikely that anyone will actually attack you with a shomen or yokomen strike, but the fundamentals of those movements can be found in the hook, which most untrained fighters will throw.

I decided that it was maybe more effective to learn how to move in a defensive manner through repetition training than to learn a method of defense for every conceivable attack. Randori seems like an effective substitute for sparring, too. It makes you expect the unexpected, which is very useful in real combat.

Plus, from a boxer's perspective, I think defense against the striking arts is where the ki in aikido comes in handy. Enter strong! Maintain Zanshin!

wendyrowe
05-04-2005, 06:30 AM
...This leads me to agree with the argument that Aikdo's principles can be applied against things like boxing-style attacks and grappling situations. Some people are probably already playing with this. That's exactly what my sensei Jason DeLucia (aikidoka and MMA fighter) is doing: www.aikidog.com
At the same time, we should be true to what makes Aikido unique, or it won't really be Aikido anymore.The question of exactly what it is that's the essense of Aikido could probably keep several threads going for years and most likely already has. For the sake of this discussion, instead of talking about "what makes Aikido unique" it might be better to say we should be true to Aikido principles (using the opponent's energy against him/her) -- because since Aikido is derived from other sources, if you're talking technique there isn't anything "unique" in Aikido and I think the same might follow if you're talking philosophy. Even if you're talking principles, there may not be anything unique; you just listed Wing Chun principles that are shared with Aikido, and DeLucia Sensei talks about Kung Fu and Tai Chi principles shared with Aikido.

theflyingheadbuttsuplex
05-04-2005, 02:27 PM
Will Aikido really work?

Is a question I've asked myself many times. And the answer is, yes, it will. The second questions one should ask is MY AIKIDO will work?, well that depends on your level of training and your opponent(s)' level.

It's very common to read a question about a specific attack, or a specific technique taught in a aikido dojo at think how this would work against such or such attack.
well, thinking of the aikido techniques you train every class just as a series of standard responses to specific attacks is very limited. The way aikido is trained isn't exactly to develop a range of techniques for every possible situation imaginable, that would limit training to your imagination, what would aikido do in situations you can't imagine? Aikido techniques are trained to learn principles of body mechanics and structure, angles, timing, relationship between centers, etc, which are principles one can apply to any situation, yes the one you imagine, and the ones you don't.
Once you master this principles and apply them properly, anything you do is aikido. Sometimes what you do will be recognized as a technique you practice in class, sometimes will be something that just arose in the moment, not a "recognizable technique" per se.
But if it follows the principle, yes it's aikido.
this is one of the best answers ive seen on the forums(but ive only been here two days) and i know that if I got in a fight, MY aikido would probably not be good enough. I would have to use slips, jabs, crosses, and armbars. I don't think aikido can defend against everything, no martial art can. as for how it would do against a fast punch, it would be something like this. against a jab, techniques wouldn't work too well, but a jab isn't very long range. you can just stay out of their maai. against a rear cross, I think some techniques would work. crosses are a little slower than jabs, and are harder to recover from(i have a double end bag so I know) hooks and uppercuts are close range shots, and if you keep your distance, it shouldn't be too much of a problem. kicks i don't know. And finally, aikido is made to stop fights before they start, not necessarily fighting. if anyone thinks i'm crazy and don't know what I'm talking about, please say so! :p :uch:

theflyingheadbuttsuplex
05-04-2005, 02:31 PM
this is off topic, but what is zanshin?

Ketsan
05-04-2005, 04:46 PM
this is off topic, but what is zanshin?
Umm. Situational awareness. Complete conscious awareness of everything around you.

CNYMike
05-05-2005, 10:59 AM
That's exactly what my sensei Jason DeLucia (aikidoka and MMA fighter) is doing: www.aikidog.com
The question of exactly what it is that's the essense of Aikido could probably keep several threads going for years and most likely already has. For the sake of this discussion, instead of talking about "what makes Aikido unique" it might be better to say we should be true to Aikido principles (using the opponent's energy against him/her) -- because since Aikido is derived from other sources, if you're talking technique there isn't anything "unique" in Aikido and I think the same might follow if you're talking philosophy. Even if you're talking principles, there may not be anything unique; you just listed Wing Chun principles that are shared with Aikido, and DeLucia Sensei talks about Kung Fu and Tai Chi principles shared with Aikido.

Nothing wrong with that .... however, another aspect of martial arts is preserving and propogating part of a culture. Something has been passed to you, and you have to pass it on to others or it vanishes from the face of the Earth. So if you don't take care to preserve whatever it is that makes Aikido Aikido, and just present a mishmash of theories without cultural context, you may be right in one sense but you would have lost something else.

I've become sensitve to this aspect of martial arts through my involvement in Pentjak Silat Serak. Serak is the sacred family heirloom of the de Thouars family, and the whole point of teaching it to other people is to keep it alive. Otherwise, it's gone. And the same is true of anything. What's the point of studying Kenjutsu? Kenjutusu people can probably give you all sorts of reasons, and they'd all be valid, but at the core of it is just making sure it doesn't disappear from the face of the Earth.

Now, O Sensei left a lot of lattitude open WRT Aikido's physical techniques, so working on boxing and grappling techniques can probably fit in. But if you leave out whatever it is that makes Aikido unique, what O Sensei WANTS you to preserve, then IMHO, you're not doing your job.

wendyrowe
05-05-2005, 02:25 PM
another aspect of martial arts is preserving and propogating part of a culture. Something has been passed to you, and you have to pass it on to others or it vanishes from the face of the Earth... But if you leave out whatever it is that makes Aikido unique, what O Sensei WANTS you to preserve, then IMHO, you're not doing your job.
I agree, and as part of my Aikido I am certainly studying not just the physics but also the "do" -- I was just musing over exactly what it is that "makes Aikido unique," and would be happy to follow you to another thread if it's too off-topic but you want to take a stab at it. I searched around for a similar thread but didn't find anything that looked good in the two most recent pages of search results for "unique" that I checked. If this has already been hashed out, I'd appreciate a pointer to an appropriate thread so we don't have to re-invent the wheel.

DustinAcuff
05-06-2005, 07:20 PM
Chris!!
if you want practical application go to people who HAVE to use these techniques, aka officers, medical people, bouncers. if you have some friends who are still in karate or TKD, teach them enough ukeme not to get hurt, then "spar" with them.

my sensei always makes a note of two things: 1> when you are in a physical engagement, always assume the person fighting you is ATLEAST as trained as you are so you will not be supprised, even if it is a 5' 90 pound woman, she can and will kill you if she has some good pcp in her system. 2> if you want to apply your techniques against anything, train against anything. ex: if you want to be able to neutralize a grappler, train your techniques on grapplers, if you want to learn to take strikes, practice techniques on unwilling Muai Thai people. but you MUST watch the line on weither you are trying to perfect your technque, or if you are trying to be a bad=ss.

bottom line is this stuff works. my sensei was a US Marine, a Bouncer and a Police officer for 18 years, he has been there and done that. he has broken his share of bones, both his and other people's, been stabbed, been shot at, and been robbed at gunpoint, but he is still alive. g

generally, you just have to invest the time to learn it. i'm lucky enough to train in a dojo where we have 5 cops/prison guards, and a prison nurse where they use this stuff everyday. we start training off of punches for general application, since in america that is your number one way to get attacked most places, but we also train every technique off of grabs, as well as specialized traingin for the officers and anyone who has to use the stuff in real life.

one note: you are training under a sensei, and if you are willing to commit the time, you will learn to take punches/kicks/knives/firearms(possibly). but honor your sensei, and if you are worried about what you are being taught, then ask your sensei, s/he will probably answer your questions.

DustinAcuff
05-06-2005, 07:29 PM
i just got to the fourth page of the post and saw a question about kicks, here's my answer.

enter and intercept uke's leg, direct uke's center down while maintaining your own center, cut to center.

* I am just now being exposed to kicks, diffrent kicks work in diffent ways, but the principle is always the same, easiest way to figure it out is get some TKD person who has good balance to be uke for a while so you can figure it out.

** i've only been in aikido for about 9 months, i apoligize if i am out of line in my explinations, ect, but these are the things i've learned from sensei and the advanced students

ChrisHein
05-06-2005, 07:37 PM
Will Aikido work is a very vague question. Will it work for cultivating spirit, yes. Will it work to make you a happier person, yes. Will it work at bringing joy into your life, yes. Will it work if you want to learn how to ground and center yourself, yes. It will work to do lots and lots of stuff. I think you should go out and see if it "works" and then well talk about what it "worked" or didn't "work" on. If the question is, "is Aikido a waste of my time" I would say it most certainly is not.

-Chris Hein

rob_liberti
05-08-2005, 09:37 PM
Testing your understanding of aikido is very important. You should be doing that in every class. If you find that something doesn't work for you, work to figure it out.

Rob

ChrisHein
05-09-2005, 11:48 AM
For once I agree with Rob!

-Chris Hein

JasonFDeLucia
05-15-2005, 07:39 PM
you see alot of discussions about does it or doesn't it work .
many people think that they don't see traditional aiki techniques in mma because they don't work ,but they forget.as good as royce gracie is with the traditional kyu for his art that there have now been fights where he hasn't put someone away with them .does that mean bjj doesn't work? of course not but it's the same illusion.

jester
05-16-2005, 04:49 PM
Jason, is that you on the cover of Royce's new book?

ChrisHein
05-16-2005, 08:04 PM
Jason,
You've fought professionally, don't you believe that Aikido's syllabus is not geared toward empty handed combat?

-Chris Hein

maikerus
05-16-2005, 08:35 PM
Jason,
You've fought professionally, don't you believe that Aikido's syllabus is not geared toward empty handed combat?

Leading the witness....your honour :)

ChrisHein
05-16-2005, 10:27 PM
Hahaha......
Well?

wendyrowe
05-17-2005, 05:29 AM
Jason,
You've fought professionally, don't you believe that Aikido's syllabus is not geared toward empty handed combat?

-Chris Hein

He's my Sensei. SInce he doesn't check the forum all that often, I'll show him the posts next time I see him and with luck he'll answer before too long. I'm betting he'll disagree with you entirely! As his student, even though I've only been training a couple of years and am light years from being a fighter, I disagree with you; the techniques may have been derived from swordhand, but part of Ueshiba's brilliance is how effective they are empty-handed. Timing, body dynamics, mindset; once you've absorbed how to move using aiki, you are very effective.

Randathamane
05-17-2005, 09:06 AM
Aikido will work if you make it work.
Don't go round thinking that everyone who attacks you will go with an aikido attack. Could be a jab, could be a kick (i which case your in trouble).

Adapt to the circumstance and it will work. If you don't it will not. simple as.

:ai: :ki: :do:

Nick Simpson
05-18-2005, 07:59 AM
Why would being attacked with a kick make you in trouble? You could move out of the way or run. Id fear a punch much more, shorter range, relatively faster, more likely to connect and in general much more common. They also commonly lead to people falling backwards, smashing their head on the ground and dying from brain haemorraghes. Then Id say you would be in trouble...

makuchg
05-18-2005, 10:20 PM
The biggest problem I see with this argument is that people try to fit a technique in a situation. For example arguments like Aikido doesn't work because a jab is to fast for shihonage. That's like saying my tools don't work because my screw driver won't pound the nail. Choosing the wrong tool doesn't fault the tool box, just the carpenter. Aikido will work if you apply the principles and stop trying to fit techniques to situation. Let situations develop and apply techniques that fit, not ones you want to fit.

Bronson
05-19-2005, 12:26 AM
Let situations develop and apply techniques that fit, not ones you want to fit.

Hallelujah!! Can I get an Amen :D

Bronson

DustinAcuff
05-19-2005, 12:27 AM
Amen!

jester
05-19-2005, 10:34 AM
The biggest problem I see with this argument is that people try to fit a technique in a situation. For example arguments like Aikido doesn't work because a jab is to fast for shihonage. That's like saying my tools don't work because my screw driver won't pound the nail. Choosing the wrong tool doesn't fault the tool box, just the carpenter. Aikido will work if you apply the principles and stop trying to fit techniques to situation. Let situations develop and apply techniques that fit, not ones you want to fit.

Well said!

CNYMike
05-19-2005, 11:16 AM
Amen!

Ditto!

Nick Simpson
05-20-2005, 07:06 AM
likewise :)

ChrisHein
05-20-2005, 11:45 AM
The biggest problem I see with this argument is that people try to fit a technique in a situation. For example arguments like Aikido doesn't work because a jab is to fast for shihonage. That's like saying my tools don't work because my screw driver won't pound the nail. Choosing the wrong tool doesn't fault the tool box, just the carpenter. Aikido will work if you apply the principles and stop trying to fit techniques to situation. Let situations develop and apply techniques that fit, not ones you want to fit.

I agree with this completely, And I believe Aikidos techniques best apply to weapon oriented situations. The set ups for aikido techniques happen most commonly in weapons struggle. This is why it's hard to get a shihonage off a jab, it wasn't designed to deal with jabs. Shihonage sets up beautifully when struggling over something, like a weapon! This is why I say Aikido is a poor unarmed system, it's a butterknife, trying to turn a screw, or a screwdriver pounding a nail. I wish I could have said it so clearly!!

-Chris Hein

rob_liberti
05-20-2005, 12:55 PM
I also agree with the spirit of those words.

I think no one would argue that you should not try to fit a technique in a situation - unless you are in class and the situation has been set up for you to discover more depth to the technique's underpinning principles. In that case, stop making excuses and work on it until you figure it out!

Rob

PeterPhilippson
05-20-2005, 01:56 PM
I agree with this completely, And I believe Aikidos techniques best apply to weapon oriented situations. The set ups for aikido techniques happen most commonly in weapons struggle. This is why it's hard to get a shihonage off a jab, it wasn't designed to deal with jabs. Shihonage sets up beautifully when struggling over something, like a weapon! This is why I say Aikido is a poor unarmed system, it's a butterknife, trying to turn a screw, or a screwdriver pounding a nail. I wish I could have said it so clearly!!

-Chris Hein

Aikido is to harmonise, to take balance, to deflect. All these work with jabs. Irimi and tsugiashi work fine. Atemi can then be used, and are very much part of aikido.

We practice with jabs, kicks, combination punches etc. at our dojo.

Peter

Kevin Leavitt
05-20-2005, 02:04 PM
when it stops working is when it becomes a struggle and you stop blending and harmonizing, yada, yada, yada.

I think this is the point of the "DO".

Trying to apply aikido with full speed techniques almost always results in struggles of strength at my level of skill. Which is what leads most to conclude that aikido does not work. As has been stated so eloquently so many times before...maybe your aikido does not work.

Kevin Leavitt
05-20-2005, 02:08 PM
I caugt another post above that said aikido will work in a situation if you make it work. True, but I think you gotta be careful with the context of the application.

It's sort of like running around town with a hammer thinking everything you see is a nail and if you just keep trying hard enough it will work on everything.

I think the important thing about aikido is not the techniques and whether or not they work, they don't work for many situations. However, as Jason DeLucia pointed out the principles of aikido are universal and work in every martial situations.

You have to look beyond the technique.

ChrisHein
05-20-2005, 06:54 PM
I agree that Aikido teachs much much more then technique. I can't remmeber once my teacher showing me a technique for dealing with my landlady, but our relationship has been much nicer since I started training in Aikido. Everyone (I think) understands that Aikidos teachings reach far beyond martial application. However in martial situations they are disigned to work with weapons. I'm starting to sound like a broken record! hahah!

-Chris Hein

eyrie
05-20-2005, 07:14 PM
Well, a weapon is really an extension of your hand, is it not? Perhaps one should practice with the "feeling" of a weapon in an empty hand?

wendyrowe
05-20-2005, 07:15 PM
... I'm starting to sound like a broken record! hahah!

-Chris HeinWhat's a "record"?

(Just kidding ... I even own some. I'm just waiting for the day people don't understand that expression anymore. I used to worry that "clockwise" was going to die out, too.)
...Everyone (I think) understands that Aikidos teachings reach far beyond martial application. However in martial situations they are disigned to work with weapons. Morihei Ueshiba designed Aikido and did not always use a weapon. Had he designed a martial art expressly to work with weapons, it seems to me that he would always use it with weapons. The fact that O'Sensei often used his system empty handed as well as with weapons seems proof that it was designed for empty hands as well as weapons.

ChrisHein
05-20-2005, 09:22 PM
Ah, Wendy uses logic! Often rare around here!!
Well I believe honestly in the latter part of Osensei's life, he wasn't concerned much with the martial function of his system. I believe he saw a big bomb hit, and new that the world was a new and terrible place, where a system of self understanding was much more useful then a system of ancient martial combat. I think the systems and ideals he learned as a youth were put behind him and he was onto new ideas. This said, I don't really think it mattered to him if his system was an effective means of unarmed self defense or not. I also believe that he knew things like swords and knives were out of date in comparison to modern firearms. All this said, have you ever taught a class where you use a tanto. It can really be a pain. they fall on the floor, get tucked in belts, hit people on the head etc etc. It defiantly expedites matters in class when you go through the motions with out carrying all the weaponry around, and since it didn't matter that it was effective (for fighting) to him.....

-Chris Hein

JasonFDeLucia
05-22-2005, 06:32 PM
Jason, is that you on the cover of Royce's new book?
i never saw that book .

JasonFDeLucia
05-22-2005, 06:41 PM
Jason,
You've fought professionally, don't you believe that Aikido's syllabus is not geared toward empty handed combat?

-Chris Heinas the basic principle is practiced traditionally, no.but after making the leap they are fine .for example chuck liddell uses perfectly traditional irimi and look at his success with it.and did you ever see those pictures of mr. ueshiba doing kata gatame and a seated front choke?

JasonFDeLucia
05-29-2005, 07:13 PM
Jason, is that you on the cover of Royce's new book?
now i've seen it .it's excellent .also it is me on the cover.

Sanshouaikikai
05-29-2005, 09:28 PM
This in Regards to Mr. Tennenhouse:

I've read your articles on the advancement of aikido in real life applications on AikidoJournal.com. I 100% agree with you on EVERYTHING!!! I come from a JKD/Kung Fu and Karate background and have been in a lot of street altercations so I know what real fighting consists of! I just started Aikido 2 months ago...and I didn't start it 'cause I wanted to be a better person...I started it 'cause it's principles and many of the techniques are very effective if trained in properly...pretty much the same thing you're trying to get through. I've been posting a lot on the NHB fighting and Aikido thread here on the website and NO ONE on the thread except maybe one person agrees with me! So...I know what you're going through when people criticize and insult you because you know the truth. I just wanted to give you that word of encouragement. Also...if you have any videos of your SRA...send me some! LOL!

Sincerely,

Alan M. Rodriguez

SeiserL
05-30-2005, 10:22 PM
This in Regards to Mr. Tennenhouse: I've read your articles on the advancement of aikido in real life applications on AikidoJournal.com. I 100% agree with you on EVERYTHING!!! ... So...I know what you're going through when people criticize and insult you because you know the truth. I just wanted to give you that word of encouragement. Also...if you have any videos of your SRA...send me some! LOL! Sincerely, Alan M. Rodriguez IMHO, I hope you are being scarcastic, especially if you attended the Aiki Expo.

maikerus
05-30-2005, 10:51 PM
IMHO, I hope you are being scarcastic, especially if you attended the Aiki Expo.
Hmm...do share with the class, Lynn :)

PeterR
05-30-2005, 11:08 PM
Of course Aikido will work if that is your goal. I guess I could say something along the same lines in the Culture of Meritocracy thread but that has gotten pretty verbose and I would probably be lost in there.

Aikido training has a certain duality. A good teacher will guide your development but at the same time it is you who are responsible for your training. If your Aikido is not taking you in the direction (self defense by way of example) then you need to examine your training methods or more specifically how you approach your training.

In circumstance which I wont relate my Uncle with a huge grin on his face in response to a comment I made said that the when ever you talk with a 16 year old about sex - they think they invented it. Same could be said with Aikido - the number of people who go through the stage of believing they have some great secret is equal to the number of people that do Aikido. The trick is to gain enough experience to realize that.

maikerus
05-30-2005, 11:15 PM
In circumstance which I wont relate my Uncle with a huge grin on his face in response to a comment I made said that the when ever you talk with a 16 year old about sex - they think they invented it. Same could be said with Aikido - the number of people who go through the stage of believing they have some great secret is equal to the number of people that do Aikido. The trick is to gain enough experience to realize that.

But I don't see how this applies...I mean...er...you mean..um...but I did invent...well...discover...hmm...

What a great analogy. :D

cheers,

--Michael

-

Charlie
05-31-2005, 05:55 AM
Aikido training has a certain duality. A good teacher will guide your development but at the same time it is you who are responsible for your training. If your Aikido is not taking you in the direction (self defense by way of example) then you need to examine your training methods or more specifically how you approach your training.

Exactly!!! That is what i was trying to say in the mediocrity thread.

Sanshouaikikai
05-31-2005, 01:08 PM
IMHO, I hope you are being scarcastic, especially if you attended the Aiki Expo.


No...I'm being honest...I don't see why YOU would disagree being that you apparently are a JKD/Kali practioner. However...please explain how his Aiki Expo demonstration was a failure.

Ron Tisdale
05-31-2005, 01:22 PM
Tennenhouse bombed at the expo...he couldn't put his money where his mouth was. Which is what was in doubt all along. If you are going to pick someone to cheer, at least pick someone who can do what he says. By the way, Lynn was there...

Ron

Ron Tisdale
05-31-2005, 02:57 PM
http://www.aikidojournal.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=7163&highlight=

for the "highlights" in question...oh boy...:(

RT

xuzen
05-31-2005, 10:13 PM
This in Regards to Mr. Tennenhouse:

I've read your articles on the advancement of aikido in real life applications on AikidoJournal.com. I 100% agree with you on EVERYTHING!!! I come from a JKD/Kung Fu and Karate background and have been in a lot of street altercations so I know what real fighting consists of! I just started Aikido 2 months ago...and I didn't start it 'cause I wanted to be a better person...I started it 'cause it's principles and many of the techniques are very effective if trained in properly...pretty much the same thing you're trying to get through. I've been posting a lot on the NHB fighting and Aikido thread here on the website and NO ONE on the thread except maybe one person agrees with me! So...I know what you're going through when people criticize and insult you because you know the truth. I just wanted to give you that word of encouragement. Also...if you have any videos of your SRA...send me some! LOL!

Sincerely,

Alan M. Rodriguez

'Lo Alan ol' chap,

Still think highly of of the ol' Short Range Aikido thingy? Me think if those SRA videos are on sale it is prob'ly a good time to buy 'em 'coz they'll be going for a dozen a penny and they will be found at the clearance stock tray.

Good luck ol'chap.

nathansnow
02-07-2006, 09:13 AM
Wrist grasps are to initiate beginners into the concepts of circularity. But if/when you become more aware of concepts you can pre-empt attacks and actually get your attacker to grasp your wrist/elbow/shoulder etc etc by presenting whichever one to him before he has formed his attack.
As he is thinking about attacking you, feign an attack on him, eg: uraken (backfist strike) to the face. If you are in the right position he will automatically raise his arm/hand to defend and most likely grasp what is offered. - and there you go!
This is very simplistic as an example but try it.P.

Great example Peter, right on the money!! ;)

Counsel
02-07-2006, 02:02 PM
Similar to another post, but different.

There are many 'techniques' in Aikido (as there are in many different arts. Each technique can be applied as taught (as in a wrist grab) or in another situation (where the wrist may not be 'the target').

As someone who has studied jujitsu, I have encountered this 'wrist grab.' I haven't seen many 'attackers' grab my wrist either, but I have seen situations where the response to the 'wrist grab' could be applied effectively.

One of the instructor's purposes is to teach you techniques. One of your goals as a student is to ask yourself questions about every technique: 'Can I use this technique as taught?' or 'Can I use this technique in other situations?'

Just a question...can you not visualize a situation where the response to the wrist grab would be of use or could be of use even if the 'attacker' did not simply grab your wrist?

Perspective...

C

Mark Uttech
02-07-2006, 04:45 PM
Katate-tori (wrist grab) can also be thought of as a technique uke uses to keep you from drawing a weapon.