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thomas_dixon
11-09-2004, 01:58 PM
http://www.dailyprogress.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=CDP/MGArticle/CDP_BasicArticle&c=MGArticle&cid=1031779036353&path=

What do you think?


Could he do all that while drunk?

garry cantrell
11-09-2004, 02:31 PM
i didn't see any indication of the amount of alcohol, if any, consumed by alston prior to the incident other than implications made by the d.a. so, yeah, he might've had a shot at performing those particular techniques.....and the self defense angle works well for the first couple of stab wounds. it will be tougher to explain the last 15 or 16 as a reasonable response to an attack though. it'll be interesting to see what the jury decides.

Bronson
11-09-2004, 02:42 PM
it will be tougher to explain the last 15 or 16 as a reasonable response to an attack though.

Suppose Alston couldn't get the knife away from the attacker. The attacker keeps struggling to bring the knife to bear and all Alston can do is to keep hold and keep re-directing the attacks...back into the attacker. Possible? I suppose so. I think if he pulled it off he's either very very skilled or very very lucky.

Bronson

suren
11-09-2004, 02:59 PM
Sisk, a volunteer firefighter from Free Union, died Nov. 8, 2003, after a night of barhopping and a verbal confrontation near the Corner. He suffered a stab wound to the heart, wounds to his left arm, upper back, right shoulder and lower back, and two cuts to his face.

Alston, who was a third-year biology major at the University of Virginia, maintains that he acted in self-defense.

Huh?! 18 cuts while defending yourself and some of them into the upper and lower back?! :freaky: Whose nephew is that Alston?


Larry McCann testified that a cut that Alston sustained on his right hand was likely a defensive wound. His theory is counter to the analysis of the state's chief medical examiner, who testified last week that Alston's wound was consistent with a bloody knife slipping out of an attacker's hand.

"How many autopsies have you performed, Mr. McCann?" Zug asked during cross-examination.

"None," McCann replied.

Zug also questioned how much money the defense was paying him for his testimony. McCann said his company has already billed the defense $20,000 for his time.

"Are you selling your testimony?" the prosecutor asked.

"No, sir, I believe my testimony is the truth," McCann said.

Oh, sure! For that amount I assume he could believe in anything.
Ridiculous story! A guy is defending himself by stubbing the knife into the heart of the attacker, then attacker does not give up, he stubs the knife into his neck from the back and finally into his lower back! IMO it's a shame that Aikido is used to make people believe in that nonsense.

thomas_dixon
11-09-2004, 03:06 PM
I think hes going ot jail for a long time.

Michael Hackett
11-09-2004, 03:20 PM
All they gotta do is convince one knucklehead on the jury..........

Kinda interesting that the defense called another student and not the instructor. I don't know who taught those classes, but I want to buy his book, DVDs, and move into his dojo. Spending years learning kihon-waza seems a waste of time when you can learn so much, so quickly.

Seriously, maybe the first wound, but the rest sound very much like the defendant had the knife. I've seen several pretty weird killings and accidental deaths, but not quite this bizarre. Maybe OJ should look at this guy as the real killer he's been seeking.

Jen R
11-09-2004, 03:47 PM
As a member of Aikido of Charlottesville, all I can really think is, "Oh, s**t."

I've only been training there for less than two years, but I've never heard of either of these two. I just hope this doesn't negatively affect the dojo.

Here's a link with more info:

http://readthehook.com/stories/2004/01/21/newsPreliminaryHearingNigh.html

Michael Hackett
11-09-2004, 03:59 PM
This latest article makes some more sense to me. Almost every victim of stabbings that I've ever interviewed told me that they thought they were punched and didn't know they were being stabbed. From this article I'm lead to believe that Andrew had a knife and stabbed Sisk multiple times. Somehow I would'da thought a brother UVA student would be bright enough to come up with a more plausible story......Let's see what the jurors think.

jester
11-09-2004, 05:19 PM
It's totally possible for the knife to come back into the alleged attacker and stab them in the face neck and chest.

I can't seem to figure out the back stabs though. I would think a heart stab would end it very quickly though.

I think the guy is lying, so don't think I believe his story, but I know that if your extending someones arm, it will instinctively pull itself back.

Michael Hackett
11-09-2004, 05:26 PM
Twenty times? Sorta like holding on to a hot horseshoe; it doesn't take long to examine all you need to see.

Keith_k
11-09-2004, 06:51 PM
If the first stab was to the heart, that should have ended most of the struggle right there. Not that I'm an expert, but I just can't see someone lasting very long in a fight with a ruptured pump. If the guy has enough Aikido experience to re-direct a knife stab while drunk, he should have enough to throw the attacker to the ground and hold him there with a pin untill help arrives. I don't buy the self defence plea. Alston killed this guy.

Paul Sanderson-Cimino
11-09-2004, 07:00 PM
Actually, this sounds completely /possible/ to me. Here's the scenario I envisioned:

Sisk attacks Alston with knife.
Alston sidesteps or small-pivots. he grabs Sisk's hand and twists it in a nikkyo direction.
Sisk's forward momentum, or him retracting the knife, or Alston pushing it inwards, carries it into his chest. In fact, it seems like your forearm length is just about right to rotate in and strike your heart.
The knife comes loose. The two twisting and moving might well carry it past the initial entry point on the left chest to strike the arm.
Alston begins a nikkyo ura-waza style takedown. This would sweep the knife around and into Sisk's back. Sisk is probably already falling over by this point, so this would be easy even for a drunk person.
If you think about it, stab wounds to the heart, left arm, and back are entirely consistent with where the knife would go in such a technique.

That doesn't mean I believe him. It's just that it /is/ remarkably consistent with where a knife might go in a struggling nikkyo takedown and pin.
I suppose it partially depends on how deep the stab wounds are - my theory here (remarkably similar to a textbook munemochi-nikkyo #2) would predict a number of light slashes/shallow stabs.


And of course, this is only part of the trial...

Jen R
11-10-2004, 07:57 AM
Eh, looks like the jury didn't buy it.

http://www.dailyprogress.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=CDP%2FMGArticle%2FCDP_BasicArticle&c=MGArticle&cid=1031779059662&path=!news

ian
11-10-2004, 08:13 AM
I think it's possible, but not necessarily the most likely cause of events. All these wounds could just as easily be carried out if he had just attacked him with the knife. Did they trace the knife to either of them? I suggest, whoever had ownership of the knife should be held liable. Anyone who carries a knife has equipped themselves to kill someone (whether they know it or not).

Taliesin
11-10-2004, 10:07 AM
The HUGE problem with this 'defense' is that How, if he's good enough to redirect a knife attack 18 times!!! why he wasn't good enough to either strip the blade from his 'attacker' or to redirect to a single fatal blow. It's equally hard to understand how he could have been that effective after "studying Aikido together in the summer of 2002".

Magma
11-10-2004, 10:34 AM
Anyone who carries a knife has equipped themselves to kill someone (whether they know it or not).

Um... anyone who carries keys has equipped themselves to kill someone.

Anyone who lets their fingernails grow has equipped themselves to kill someone.

Anyone wearing shoes...

Anyone with arms...

It isn't ownership of the knife, but rather possession at the time of use. It is the intent to use it... and either party can be guilty of that - either the one that had it on them at the start of the altercation, or the other person if that person is able to get possession of the knife.

BC
11-10-2004, 11:32 AM
This guy only studied aikido "in the summer of 2002." Does anyone here honestly believe that studying aikido for a few months would make them proficient in defense against a knife? Even if you believe that to be possible, you then have to be able to support the theory that over a year later, after not practicing aikido during that time, you would still have retained that knowledge and abilities while intoxicated. I don't buy it, and evidently the jury didn't either.

garry cantrell
11-10-2004, 11:47 AM
it looks like the jury came back with a voluntary manslaughter verdict. i do not know the particulars of virginia law, but typically voluntary manslaughter requires a failure to find that the murder was done with malice (states can differ on the definition of malice as well - but it usually requires the intentional doing of a wrongful act without just cause or excuse with an intent to inflict injury) - so, the jury apparently placed some blame on the deceased and paid some attention to "heat of the moment" motivation.

also - the right to self defense ends when the threat is over. its a very aiki sort of sensibility. some, probably most, states require that you retreat first before using force. but you're only required to retreat if you can do so safely. texas does not require that you retreat if the altercation is within your own home. but, still, you've got to stop once the threat is neutralized. so, the hard question is - how do you know when the threat is over?

other thoughts: a sankyo against a knife thrust can end up with the knife in a stabbing position into the chest of uke - and i've seen it taught that way - and i've taught it that way, likewise with a gokyo takedown gone wrong. further, a shihonage can end up with the knife in a stabbing position to the upper back - and there are a bunch of others - but i can't think of a single technique that puts you into position for each of the stab wounds observed without some sophisticated transitional moves. none of the witnesses observed anything that sounded like anything particularly sophisticated - not sure that someone unfamiliar with MA would necesarily recognize it though.

SeiserL
11-10-2004, 12:37 PM
Doesn't sound like any Tanto-waza I've every seen in Aikido. I does sound like some rather sloppy FMA overkill.

Kevin Leavitt
11-10-2004, 12:56 PM
Wow, this is my home town. I wonder if he studied with anyone I know!

Todd Worobey
11-10-2004, 01:03 PM
something stinks with this one, and it sure aint roses...You guys are correct, a stab to the heart would drop the Terminator like a stone never mind anyone else, this one has a very large BS factor.

garry cantrell
11-10-2004, 02:46 PM
but that's the question isn't it? if a stab wound to the heart would, in fact, drop him like a stone, is it prudent to wait and see if he drops before stabbing again (assuming, for the sake of this discussion, that stabbing is your only available self defense application) or is it more prudent to continue until you are sure that he is no longer engaging you? relatively few events are instantaneous, including bleed outs. lots of cops make it practice to shoot in groups of two ("double taps") because it is safer than waiting to see if the first bullet works (on the other hand, if i ever tried to shoot anyone, i'd need 30 or 40 bullets and probably wouldn't come close to the intended target with any of them) . not really an answer for that i guess.
hmmm, after all of that, i've gotta say i think the jury was probably right on this one.

Todd Worobey
11-10-2004, 03:02 PM
Stab, stab & stab again? Overkill is not self defense, it's now a mutual fight. stab, take down /throw, run like hell is much more believable. You kill someone you are going to have to ansewer tough questions. All wanna be "Warriors" be warned.

Paul Sanderson-Cimino
11-10-2004, 03:06 PM
i can't think of a single technique that puts you into position for each of the stab wounds observed without some sophisticated transitional moves.

The article cites stab wounds to the heart, left arm, upper back, and right shoulder.

I'd like to point out the post I made earlier. Those would be precisely the places that a technique like mune-mochi nikkajo to pin would put the knife at. First the heart from the grab and retract, then over to the arm as he grabbed the elbow, then as the guy with the heart wound fell, stabbing along his back on its way to the pin - ending with a twist over the right shoulder.

That's not 18 separate deflections - it's grabbing the knife once, and then struggling to finish a single technique, with numerous small stabs resulting from natural back-and-forth and panicked clumsiness.

Either way, I think a manslaughter conviction is appropriate. He pulled the knife, and may have done these things deliberately. 10 years is a long time, but perhaps it's appropriate - even killing in defense should be viewed harshly.

j0nharris
11-10-2004, 04:22 PM
As a member of Aikido of Charlottesville, all I can really think is, "Oh, s**t."

I've only been training there for less than two years, but I've never heard of either of these two. I just hope this doesn't negatively affect the dojo.


Hey Jen,
I've trained in C'ville off and on over the last 10 years, and don't recognize either of those (last) names. Maybe they studied with those vicious ki society guys! :D

If anything I bet membership spikes for a couple of weeks, as all the tough-guy wannabes think,
"Cool, I can learn how to kill someone in self-defense over Christmas break!!"

-jon

Lan Powers
11-10-2004, 10:25 PM
I, for one, would really like to know who had the knife, who pulled it out etc...
We all know where it wound up.
Lan

p00kiethebear
11-11-2004, 02:11 AM
A verdict has been reached...

http://www.timesleader.com/mld/timesleader/10149165.htm

Dan Gould
11-11-2004, 06:13 PM
If that was self defence, even when drunk off your features, surely, if you can manage to redirect the attack that many times, you'd be capable of taking the guy to ground and pinning him, removing the knife, and leave him be with no more than a good shoeing?

I think he's telling some mistruths :-s Drunk or not, people still have judgement. I think if he was sober enough to do the techniques he was sober enough to stop the guy without cutting him that many times.

And personally, after the first two attacks, I'd pretty much give up, I wouldn't wait to be stabbed 20 times :-p

adriangan
11-11-2004, 09:41 PM
Doesn't sound like any Tanto-waza I've every seen in Aikido. I does sound like some rather sloppy FMA overkill.

i agree, i don't think you can justify 18 stab wounds with self-defense.

thomas_dixon
11-13-2004, 07:27 AM
Doesn't sound like any Tanto-waza I've every seen in Aikido. I does sound like some rather sloppy FMA overkill.

Not FMA that I know of (I take it).

chrisward
11-14-2004, 01:49 PM
I think hes going ot jail for a long time.

I think your right Thomas! And I hope he is that good at Aikido because he is going to need it where he's going....

thomas_dixon
11-14-2004, 02:54 PM
He got 3 years for stabbing someone 18 times.

Yokaze
11-15-2004, 01:01 PM
I think this whole thing goes quite against the entire concept of Aikido. After all, if this man was so skilled in Aikido that he could make another man stab himself 18 times, shouldn't he be skilled enough to subdue the attacker without undue harm?

Maybe I'm just overly idealistic o.0

CarlRylander
11-16-2004, 06:28 AM
Couldn't he have knocked the attacker out or something? I've heard that there's moves in Aikido which paralyse people: A neck pinch or something. I think you're only justified in killing somone if there's more than one opponent. If it was me being attacked, if he still continued after the first redirection, I'd break his arm or paralyse him That would lessen the chances of his reattacking considerably.

I haven't taken up Aikido yet.

davidraybell
11-16-2004, 09:58 PM
I don't know anything about any "Vulcan death grips" or any moves that paralyze people. Not saying they don't exist, but I haven't heard of anything like that...

However, every time I get a good kote-gaeshi on my right side, I feel the pins in my arm twist... Hurts real bad... Could easily break an arm... I've been studying for almost a year now and I don't think that I could stab someone 18 times... not even using the techniques that the Marine Corps taught me. I dunno... I'm not buying the self defense thing.

I do, however, feel that it would be nice if our justice system could get more than 3 years for taking a life. just my opinion though, for what its worth

Solarius
11-17-2004, 04:59 AM
Well... that's a strange one. However, if the 'attacked' knew Aikido so well that he could make 18 stab wounds with the 'attacker's' own knife, he surely knew techniques that would disarm the 'attacker'. So what was his motivation to simply merrily stab his oponent to death?

cck
11-17-2004, 10:41 AM
Um... anyone who carries keys has equipped themselves to kill someone.

Anyone who lets their fingernails grow has equipped themselves to kill someone.

Anyone wearing shoes...

Anyone with arms...

It isn't ownership of the knife, but rather possession at the time of use. It is the intent to use it... and either party can be guilty of that - either the one that had it on them at the start of the altercation, or the other person if that person is able to get possession of the knife.

Yeah, ok: Guns don't kill people, people do? I would still claim that anyone NOT trained in a martial art or otherwise instructed on how to use their shoes, fingernails etc. as a deadly weapon, but who choose to take along a knife or anything else that the reasonable person would perceive as dangerous definitely has the idea of using it to harm someone - or, to their mind, defending themselves ("the best defense is a good offense", as we hear a lot) against some more or less vaguely defined enemy.

I am sure the enlightened lot who frequent this site are perfectly able to restrain themselves and carry a knife for some other (aesthetic???) reason, and to not feel threatened by other people carrying knives. But believe me, for the average Joe and Jane, a knife is a serious threat no matter in whose hands it is (or in whose back pocket, sheath, sock, etc), and one that tends to immediately put you in a position of complete fear with all that entails.

On the story, how did either of those guys ever end up in that situation in the first place? Seems to me the dojo has not done a great job of explaining the idea of not getting yourself into situations like that.

Michael Hackett
11-17-2004, 11:06 AM
Based on the news article linked previously, it appears that both men were drunk (or at least heading that way) when they got into a fight. The convicted defendant carried the knife that was used in the killing BEFORE the confrontation. They clashed, the decedent was stabbed many times and the defendant provided a defense that the stabbing was self-defense and a witness claimed he and the defendant took a summer aikido course that would, in his opinion, cause the victim's injuries. That story sounded like a large load of manure to me, an opinion apparently shared by twelve fine citizens of Virginia.

Is there really any one on this thread that believes that aikido techniques caused all the victim's injuries? That a relatively inexperienced aikido student was so very good (or so very bad)? This had nothing to do with aikido except for the defense's attempt to get a drunken thug acquitted. It had a lot more to do with testosterone, alcohol and stupidity.

I don't think the question really is whether he could have used safer techniques, but rather could he have left the damned knife at home, stayed sober, stayed away from the fight in the first place. He didn't; one died, one has his life ruined, and two families are damaged.