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Gabriel A
11-04-2004, 09:04 AM
HI, I have problems understanding the lineage of aikido. What I mean by this who were O sensei's students? where did they go ? Also who are the top ranking or famous aikidoka? And so on... I know this isn't a interesting question, but I feel I need this background info to understand some posts, for example "Who's your favorite akidoka?"

.... by the way instead of making a whole new thread, What is Jun story?

Regards to all

Yann Golanski
11-04-2004, 09:33 AM
<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?>
<response value="wrong">
Ueshiba only had one student who understood him, founded the one true style of Aikido which I study. All of you are just wrong...
</response>

<response value="right">
Many students followed Ueshiba. Some founded their own styles of Aikido such as Aikikai, Yoshinkan, Shodokan, Imawa, Ki, etc... Ueshiba continued to teach his Aikido till he died. No one is teaching Ueshiba's Aikido anylonger -- apart from a small Haiitian dojo who claims to have raised Ueshiba from the grave as a zombie.
</response>

<response value="serious">
OK, I'm exhausted, fed up with mathematical fonts for mathml and thought it would be more fun than to just pass a URL to www.aikidofaq.org and to the "search" function on this site.
</response>

Yokaze
11-04-2004, 11:02 AM
I only know that Morohiri Saito-sensei, one of O'Sensei's long-time students, opened his own dojo and trained my sensei. >.< Other than that, I'm remarkably ignorant. I believe his son or grandson is still running his dojo.

akiy
11-04-2004, 11:10 AM
Here's a page with some of the founder's uchideshi:

http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/Loge/1419/Deshi.htm

-- Jun

Greg Jennings
11-04-2004, 12:04 PM
I only know that Morohiri Saito-sensei, one of O'Sensei's long-time students, opened his own dojo and trained my sensei. >.< Other than that, I'm remarkably ignorant. I believe his son or grandson is still running his dojo.
Close, but not quite.

That would be the late Morihiro Saito. To say "opened his own dojo" wouldn't really capture the complexity of the situation.

That would be his son, Hitohiro Saito you're thinking of. Again, "still running his dojo" misses a ton of complexity and, in this case, politics.

Regards,

suren
11-04-2004, 01:01 PM
That would be his son, Hitohiro Saito you're thinking of. Again, "still running his dojo" misses a ton of complexity and, in this case, politics.

Regards,
Yes and currently Hiroshi Isoyama is Dojo Cho in Iwama.

Zato Ichi
11-04-2004, 04:51 PM
<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?>
<response value="wrong">
Ueshiba only had one student who understood him, founded the one true style of Aikido which I study. All of you are just wrong...
</response>

<response value="right">
Many students followed Ueshiba. Some founded their own styles of Aikido such as Aikikai, Yoshinkan, Shodokan, Imawa, Ki, etc... Ueshiba continued to teach his Aikido till he died. No one is teaching Ueshiba's Aikido anylonger -- apart from a small Haiitian dojo who claims to have raised Ueshiba from the grave as a zombie.
</response>

<response value="serious">
OK, I'm exhausted, fed up with mathematical fonts for mathml and thought it would be more fun than to just pass a URL to www.aikidofaq.org and to the "search" function on this site.
</response>

You forgot the root element, Yann.

Janet Rosen
11-04-2004, 05:57 PM
<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?>
<response value="wrong">
Yann, nicely done!!! my aikigiggle of the day and sorely needed.

Joe Bowen
11-04-2004, 07:46 PM
I only know that Morohiri Saito-sensei, one of O'Sensei's long-time students, opened his own dojo and trained my sensei. >.< Other than that, I'm remarkably ignorant. I believe his son or grandson is still running his dojo.

Close, but not quite.

That would be the late Morihiro Saito. To say "opened his own dojo" wouldn't really capture the complexity of the situation.

That would be his son, Hitohiro Saito you're thinking of. Again, "still running his dojo" misses a ton of complexity and, in this case, politics.

Regards,

Actually, he is correct in that the current Doshu is the grandchild of O Sensei, and currently runs Hombu Dojo in Tokyo. Saito Sensei ran the Iwama Dojo after O Sensei died and probably in O Sensei's absence while he was in Tokyo. Really not too difficult to explain. After Saito Sensei died, the Ueshiba family, which I presume has title ownership of the facility, came up with an alternative manner for running the Iwama Dojo that Saito Sensei's son did not agree with and he separated from the Aikikai. (this is where you get your political complications). Many factions and fragments within Aikido and even within the Aikikai.
Lineage is only as important as you make it. There are some wack jobs out there that are just making stuff up. If you think they are not credible ask about their lineage. You can check that out. Don't attack it, or you might find yourself in a fight (especially if these guys reallly are whackos). Whether or not one Uchideshi of O Sensei's is better than the other is a subjective thing. Use your best judgement.

Joe

Yann Golanski
11-05-2004, 02:48 AM
Haruo-san, Janet,

Glad to be of service. As for the root, when Jun wants all the posts to be XML complient, I will be happy to offer some suggestions! Now, that would be scary: a XML descriptio of Aikido.

*flees before he is lynched by a mob of angry aikidoka*

batemanb
11-05-2004, 03:00 AM
Stan Pranin over at www.aikidojournal.com has also produced a colour poster listing the principal disciples of O Sensei.

Here`s the sample, you will need to buy it to see it full size.

http://www.aikidojournal.com/images/catalog/ch01_full.jpg

rgds

Bryan

Greg Jennings
11-05-2004, 06:50 AM
Actually, he is correct in that the current Doshu is the grandchild of O Sensei, and currently runs Hombu Dojo in Tokyo.

Of course, but Hombu Dojo is not usually described as the Founder's dojo. That was the Iwama dojo. Kisshomaru Doshu and others really made the Hombu Dojo what it was and is. I'm not putting a value judgement on that. I think none of us would be practicing aikido if not for the vision and skills of the late Doshu.


Saito Sensei ran the Iwama Dojo after O Sensei died and probably in O Sensei's absence while he was in Tokyo. Really not too difficult to explain.

You've glossed over a lot of history and the complications that at least partially set up the situation that you next describe.


After Saito Sensei died, the Ueshiba family, which I presume has title ownership of the facility,

My understanding is that the Ueshiba family did retain ownership.


came up with an alternative manner for running the Iwama Dojo that Saito Sensei's son did not agree with and he separated from the Aikikai. (this is where you get your political complications).

That is not my understanding of the causes. Look for the letters by Hitohiro Saito Sensei that are posted on http://www.AikidoJournal.com .

Best regards,

Kevin Masters
11-05-2004, 07:09 AM
.... by the way instead of making a whole new thread, What is Jun story?


According to the archives Jun is really a professional wrestler:
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5082&highlight=wrestler
:)
with a very quiet breakfall:
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpost.php?p=57555&postcount=85

Kev.

Joe Bowen
11-07-2004, 10:47 PM
Of course, but Hombu Dojo is not usually described as the Founder's dojo. That was the Iwama dojo. Kisshomaru Doshu and others really made the Hombu Dojo what it was and is. I'm not putting a value judgment on that. I think none of us would be practicing aikido if not for the vision and skills of the late Doshu.

This actually depends on who is doing the describing. Hombu dojo existed well before WWII. Kissomaru Doshu maintained that dojo after O Sensei went to Iwama during the war. In the '50 and '60's, O Sensei started the 0630 class tradition that continues to this day at Hombu dojo. True, O Sensei build the Iwama dojo and the Aiki Shrine along with it. But, to say Hombu dojo is not "O Sensei's Dojo" is not an accurate statement.


You've glossed over a lot of history and the complications that at least partially set up the situation that you next describe.

Perhaps, but to keep things short, for the sake of the pertinent question, some of details weren't necessary. Did Saito Sensei spend a great deal of time with O Sensei in Iwama? Yes. Did O Sensei charge him with looking after the Aiki-shrine? Yes. Did this mean that Saito Sensei was the true recipient of O Sensei's "Dharma Transmission"? No. Saito Sensei was good, perhaps even one of the best. But O Sensei did not give him the sole charge of Aikido. The legacy and heir went to the Doshu. Does that mean all the dojos should pass to the sons of the Sensei's? No.

That is not my understanding of the causes. Look for the letters by Hitohiro Saito Sensei that are posted on http://www.AikidoJournal.com .

I've read the post. I've read the letter. Japanese society is too polite to come right out and say what's going on. So, here's my take. No disrespect intended to any parties involved. M.Saito Sensei died. H.Saito Sensei obviously, and probably not unreasonably so, expected to inherit the legacy of his father, along with the Iwama dojo cho. Since he was probably acting in that capacity while his father was still alive, that seems a reasonable expectation. However, in the Iwama area, you have at least one, and probably more, folks that had been doing Aikido before H.Saito Sensei was born. Isoyama Sensei, who is currently running Iwama dojo, is a 8th Dan, deshi of Iwama from back when O Sensei was there.
Would it be unreasonable, to turn the dojo over to a 5th Dan, (as I believe that was H.Saito Sensei rank when his father died) when you have an 8th Dan willing to assume the position? Not really. Many people talk about conspiracies to oust M.Saito Sensei, and how several folks were looking to usurp the Iwama Dojo from the Saito Family. Nonsense. Don't look past the obvious. If you're the one in charge, even with the family inheritance tradition in Japan, do you choose a 5th Dan over an 8th Dan? You'll probably tell me I'm "over-simplifying". And in a sense your right. But, the Saito family still cares for the Aiki-shrine that's probably the proper responsibility to be inherited.


Joe

deepsoup
11-08-2004, 04:27 AM
I think none of us would be practicing aikido if not for the vision and skills of the late Doshu.
I'm pretty sure I would be.

Greg Jennings
11-08-2004, 06:56 AM
I'm pretty sure I would be.
Maybe, maybe not. Kisshomaru Doshu was the person behind the "opening" of aikido. He was the one with the organizational and administrative skills.

I submit that even if you're in Korindo, Yoshinkan or Yoseikan, you probably still owe your aikido, at least partially, to Kisshomaru Doshu's efforts.

Best regards,

Greg Jennings
11-08-2004, 07:32 AM
This actually depends on who is doing the describing. Hombu dojo existed well before WWII. Kissomaru Doshu maintained that dojo after O Sensei went to Iwama during the war. In the '50 and '60's, O Sensei started the 0630 class tradition that continues to this day at Hombu dojo. True, O Sensei build the Iwama dojo and the Aiki Shrine along with it. But, to say Hombu dojo is not "O Sensei's Dojo" is not an accurate statement.

I know that he built the old Hombu dojo. I know that he taught there (that's glossing right there). But, I submit that he was not the primary (or even secondary) force behind the administration of the dojo, or the pedagogical direction. I've talked 1v1 with people that were there at the time and have no reason to doubt what they say.




Perhaps, but to keep things short, for the sake of the pertinent question, some of details weren't necessary. Did Saito Sensei spend a great deal of time with O Sensei in Iwama? Yes. Did O Sensei charge him with looking after the Aiki-shrine? Yes. Did this mean that Saito Sensei was the true recipient of O Sensei's "Dharma Transmission"? No. Saito Sensei was good, perhaps even one of the best. But O Sensei did not give him the sole charge of Aikido. The legacy and heir went to the Doshu. Does that mean all the dojos should pass to the sons of the Sensei's? No.

Gosh, I believe that if you'll read my posts, you'll see that I've never been in the "Saito Sensei is the teacher of the One True Way" camp. Sure, I train that way as much as I'm able and, yeah, it appears to work for me. I have never made an assertion past that.

But, if you want to understand why the situation that we currently have, with TWO aikido dojo in Iwama almost across the street from each other came about, you, IMHO, only have one foot in the boat.

So, here's my take. <snip> I think you have a good measure of it, but, from my sources, Hitohiro wanting to continue supporting Iwama Ryu was the real deal breaker.

Regards,

Ron Tisdale
11-08-2004, 08:29 AM
I submit that even if you're in Korindo, Yoshinkan or Yoseikan, you probably still owe your aikido, at least partially, to Kisshomaru Doshu's efforts.


As much as I respect the Aikikai organization and the Ueshiba family, nah, I don't think so. Gozo Shioda Kancho's organization did and does quite well. And having a Japanese 7th dan in your home town trumps the founder's son in Tokyo, in my personal experience. No disrespect, just the way it was for me.

Ron

deepsoup
11-08-2004, 08:59 AM
I submit that even if you're in Korindo, Yoshinkan or Yoseikan, you probably still owe your aikido, at least partially, to Kisshomaru Doshu's efforts.
I'm in Shodokan, and with all due respect to Ueshiba K., I really dont think so.

Sean
x

Gabriel A
11-08-2004, 09:52 AM
Hi, thanx to all for your responses... sorry for taking so long I was away for the weekend.

Jun, thanx for the links.... by the way, why did you quit? how did you come upon aikido?
Pls note that my question are bades on curiosity and not on disrespect.
Regards to all

Ron Tisdale
11-08-2004, 10:35 AM
why did you quit?

Wrestling? He never wrestled 'professionally' that I know of...he has the same name as a professional wrestler, so we like to kid him about it. Hard to tell if you are new here. :)

Ron (he'll have to say how he found aikido...)

Gabriel A
11-08-2004, 10:39 AM
OHhhh ... so the wrestling is a "joke" ?

Gabriel A
11-08-2004, 02:16 PM
By the way , Hi Ron how are you doing? Hope all is well!!
Regards Gabriel

MikeE
11-08-2004, 02:34 PM
Huh. Coming originally from Aikikai and now in a Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido lineaged style...I never thought of thanking Ueshiba K. for helping make Tohei K. head off away from the Aikikai ;)

Greg Jennings
11-08-2004, 02:40 PM
My thought is that the popularization provided by the Aikikai was needed to provide the critical mass that aikido needed to propagate in a significant way.

Organizational lines, points in history of diversation, etc, don't factor in.

But, hey, maybe I've been delving too much into Chaos lately.

Best,

Greg Jennings
11-08-2004, 02:52 PM
Huh. Coming originally from Aikikai and now in a Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido lineaged style...I never thought of thanking Ueshiba K. for helping make Tohei K. head off away from the Aikikai ;)
Oh, while I'm at it, I'll go ahead and give you guys another rad opinon...I don't think the aikido landscape would be *anything* like it is today if Tohei Sensei hadn't been there after WWII.

I think there are several other lynchpins in aikido history (e.g., Zenzo Inoue) without which we would not have aikido as we know it.

Back to work,

AsimHanif
11-08-2004, 09:07 PM
Gregg,
I think you are right on point. Although aikido may have been in Europe before the US, it wasn't until Tohei came that it started to gain widespread notice (if not popularity). Ueshiba K. being in charge of Aikikai business at the time no doubt was instrumental in this effort. I don't think I am being partisan when I say the efforts of the Aikikai helped all of aikido with regards to speeding up its import into non Japanese societies.

AsimHanif
11-08-2004, 09:08 PM
Greg, sorry about the dribble finger on the g's.

Gabriel A
11-09-2004, 09:26 AM
Hmm... Who would you consider contributed the most to aikido publicly, who brought aikido the most fame?.
(Besides seagal.... becuase I believe a whole thread could develop trying to decide if he harmed or helped akido.)
Gabriel

Joe Bowen
11-09-2004, 07:27 PM
I know that he built the old Hombu dojo. I know that he taught there (that's glossing right there). But, I submit that he was not the primary (or even secondary) force behind the administration of the dojo, or the pedagogical direction. I've talked 1v1 with people that were there at the time and have no reason to doubt what they say.
Gosh, I believe that if you'll read my posts, you'll see that I've never been in the "Saito Sensei is the teacher of the One True Way" camp….I think you have a good measure of it, but, from my sources, Hitohiro wanting to continue supporting Iwama Ryu was the real deal breaker.

Greg, just to tie up the conversation, and maybe stir the pot a little…While I would agree that O Sensei probably was not the primary administrative force at either Hombu or Iwama dojo, I would disagree that he was not the primary in the pedagogical direction (nice word by the way…I had to look that sucker up). While O Sensei was alive, Tohei Sensei and Ueshiba.K Sensei taught most of the classes at Hombu; however, they only taught Aikido. Tohei Sensei didn't start to change of modify his aikido instruction with his emphasis on Ki exercises until after O Sensei died. Ultimately it was this radical modification in the instructional methodology that caused the rift between Tohei and Ueshiba.K. So, O Sensei had an impact on what and how the instruction was conducted at both locations….Didn't mean to imply that you were a Iwama Ryu zealot, just thought I would throw that out there to see if any of the them were reading…I do agree that the zeal with which the "Iwama Ryu" folks maintain the idea of their Aikido as the "true" Aikido could be part of the reason for the split.

As much as I respect the Aikikai organization and the Ueshiba family, nah, I don't think so. Gozo Shioda Kancho's organization did and does quite well. And having a Japanese 7th Dan in your home town trumps the founder's son in Tokyo, in my personal experience. No disrespect, just the way it was for me. Ron

And now to "catch up" so to speak…Ron, no doubt that Gozo Shioda Sensei and the Yoshinkan Aikido organization he created are great, but Aikido was brought to the US initially by Tohei Sensei and then by Yamada Sensei (who was sent by Ueshiba.K Sensei in 1964). The spread of Yoshinkan has been pretty phenomenal, but I think its genesis comes from the initial introduction by the Aikikai….

My thought is that the popularization provided by the Aikikai was needed to provide the critical mass that aikido needed to propagate in a significant way.
Organizational lines, points in history of diversation, etc, don't factor in. But, hey, maybe I've been delving too much into Chaos lately……Oh, while I'm at it, I'll go ahead and give you guys another rad opinon...I don't think the aikido landscape would be *anything* like it is today if Tohei Sensei hadn't been there after WWII. I think there are several other lynchpins in aikido history (e.g., Zenzo Inoue) without which we would not have aikido as we know it.

I agree with Greg here. There are many important folks in Aikido history (possibly to include some Daito Ryu Aikijujitsu folks) that transcends the rifts that were created later. And, I would put forth that all of the Uchideshi of O Sensei regardless of whether they started their own organizations of not, are an important part of that history. BTW, the Yoshinkan organization still maintains a very good relationship with the Aikikai organization.

Hmm... Who would you consider contributed the most to aikido publicly, who brought aikido the most fame? (Besides seagal.... because I believe a whole thread could develop trying to decide if he harmed or helped aikido.) Gabriel

That's a tough one to answer. Seagal brought Aikido to the theaters and introduced it to a bunch of folks who still probably don't have a good idea of what Aikido is about. Whether he has done a service or disservice to Aikido, your right, that is a thread all its own…..One methodology for looking at who has brought aikido the most fame would be to look at the numbers of dojos associated with specific instructors, but this would take quite a bit of research. For example, I know that Kobayashi Yasuo Sensei has dojos associated with him in Canada, Brazil, Sweden, Iceland, Hungary, Germany, Finland, UK, USA, Norway, and Korea. I also know his son Kobayashi Hiroaki Sensei taught Aikido in Taiwan and Malaysia for awhile. But, by the same token you could argue that Yamada Sensei and other US Shihan routinely travel to teach seminars throughout the US and abroad in Europe and South America. So, who is the most popular Aikido instructor? Or, who has influenced the most people to study Aikido? Really open to debate….

Ron Tisdale
11-11-2004, 01:14 PM
And now to "catch up" so to speak…Ron, no doubt that Gozo Shioda Sensei and the Yoshinkan Aikido organization he created are great, but Aikido was brought to the US initially by Tohei Sensei and then by Yamada Sensei (who was sent by Ueshiba.K Sensei in 1964). The spread of Yoshinkan has been pretty phenomenal, but I think its genesis comes from the initial introduction by the Aikikai….

I don't believe so. I thnk the two are unrelated...The people I know of who were american and brought yoshinkan here were for the most part not connected at all to the aikikai. They found the yoshinkan in Japan, and came back here with what they learned. I could be wrong on that...but I don't think so. Steven Miranda has a good history of yoshinkan aikido in the states...

HEY STEVEN!!!! You out there???

:) Ron

Ron Tisdale
11-11-2004, 01:39 PM
Ok, for a good breakdown of Yoshinkan in the US, go to
http://www.seikeikan.com/

and click on U.S. History...

The dates referenced on that page are in the 40's and 50's...that certainly predates Tohei Shihan's 1964 trip...which does suggest that the two organizations pursued an international presense separately.

Ron

kironin
11-11-2004, 02:49 PM
Ok, for a good breakdown of Yoshinkan in the US, go to
http://www.seikeikan.com/
and click on U.S. History...

The dates referenced on that page are in the 40's and 50's...that certainly predates Tohei Shihan's 1964 trip...which does suggest that the two organizations pursued an international presense separately.

Ron


Tohei Sensei was first sent to Hawaii by Morihei Ueshiba Sensei in 1953, and then made subsequent trips in the 1950's to Hawaii and the continental USA.
Maui Ki Society just celebrated their 50th anniversary in 2003.

What I see on the page you mention talks about one GI opening a school in a small town in California after 1956. From what I know, Tohei Sensei's extended trips during that time were a bit higher profile with some big demonstrations and creating a lot of early students across the US.

kironin
11-11-2004, 03:17 PM
While O Sensei was alive, Tohei Sensei and Ueshiba.K Sensei taught most of the classes at Hombu; however, they only taught Aikido. Tohei Sensei didn't start to change of modify his aikido instruction with his emphasis on Ki exercises until after O Sensei died. Ultimately it was this radical modification in the instructional methodology that caused the rift between Tohei and Ueshiba.K.

This is not accurate. Tohei Sensei began to modify his Aikido and Aikido instruction in response to his experiences with western students in the 1950's. He as always stated this was the case in interviews. It's backed by memories of early American Aikikai students. He clearly discusses "unbendable arm" and other ki exercises in his 1961 book written while staying for an extended period in Hawaii in 1959-1960. Tohei Sensei's methods of teaching with Ki exercises and his general method of Aikido instruction can be seen already quite intact in the mid-1960's. His demonstrations of Aikido from then are quite recognizable in style to the current Ki Society technical syllabus. The black and white almost hour long teaching film by him from the mid-1960's clearly shows this as does the "This is Aikido" companion book first published around the same time.
These are things O-Sensei and Ueshiba K. signed off on at these "radical modifications" at the time. Black Belt magazine articles from the mid-1960's on Aikido (like on the NY Aikikai) all sound like preaching from Tohei Sensei's Ki bible.

the pedagogical differences don't really explain the family spat and conflicts of personalities and politics after O-sensei's death. Just like not all is on the surface about what happened after Saito Sensei's passing.

Ron Tisdale
11-12-2004, 07:48 AM
Agree completely Craig...all that I'm saying is that two are independant...and that the aikikai is not the only path to aikido...nor was it in the early days. Even if it was only one small dojo. :)

Ron

siwilson
11-12-2004, 03:01 PM
I think none of us would be practicing aikido if not for the vision and skills of the late Doshu.

Sorry?

I'm pretty sure I would be.

Maybe, maybe not. Kisshomaru Doshu was the person behind the "opening" of aikido. He was the one with the organizational and administrative skills.

I submit that even if you're in Korindo, Yoshinkan or Yoseikan, you probably still owe your aikido, at least partially, to Kisshomaru Doshu's efforts.

Nope!

My thought is that the popularization provided by the Aikikai was needed to provide the critical mass that aikido needed to propagate in a significant way.

Organizational lines, points in history of diversation, etc, don't factor in.

?????

Agree completely Craig...all that I'm saying is that two are independant...and that the aikikai is not the only path to aikido...nor was it in the early days. Even if it was only one small dojo.

Right On!

OK, Kisshomaru Ueshiba had nothing to do with me practicing Aikido. He refers to one of my late Sensei's teachers as Sempai!!! Kancho Shioda Sensei was Sempai to K. Ueshiba.

As for me, I had no interest in Aikido, as I had seen an Aikikai class and having practiced Judo, Jujutsu, Kung Fu, etc., it was baaaaad! I now know how diverse the Aikikai is and that there is some kick ass Aikikai and some "Oh, it's my turn to sit down on the tatami and roll on to my back!" The point is, what I had seen put me off!!! K. Ueshiba is said to have de-emphasised the martial side of Aikido, so if that is true he actually put me off!!! :) Please feel free to correct me.

I went along to an Aikido class when I lived in the North East, more to support a martial arts class on the military base I had just been stationed at, and also as it was a fair hike to the nearest Judo dojo.

It was a Shudokan dojo and awesome!!! The Shudokan was the first Yoshinkan dojo in the UK and comes out of Malaysia. The founder of the UK Yoshinkan and UK Shudokan school in the early 60's was the late Edwin Stratton Sensei, who I had the greatest pleasure in training with before his passing away in March 2000.

His first teacher was Thamby Rajah Sensei, who introduced both Judo and Aikido to Malaysia and founded the Shudokan, having trained under Ichijama Sensei and Shioda Sensei in the 50's.

What I am saying is that Kisshomaru Ueshiba has no presence in my lineage and in my eyes played no part in me coming to practice Aikido. That has no disrespect in it at all, as I have the greatedt respect for the Ueshiba family. That said, the only one of them who had an input in bringing me to Aikido was O'Sensei.

:freaky: Phew! I am worn out now!!! :D

All the best to all,

Si

(Yohinkan 'til I die!) ;)

kironin
11-12-2004, 03:25 PM
Agree completely Craig...all that I'm saying is that two are independant...and that the aikikai is not the only path to aikido...nor was it in the early days. Even if it was only one small dojo. :)

Ron


I agree Ron. Obviously, I think the Aikikai is not the only path. ;-)

I don't mean to knock the one dojo. Just sometimes USAF tends to give the impression that nothing was happening before Yamada, Chiba or Kanai came in the 1960's. They would have to talk about Tohei then.

Steve Miranda's site is very nice with a lot of interesting history.

One of the senior most Ki Society instructors (9th dan) that I highly respect started and trained for several years in a Yoshinkan dojo in
Japan in the mid-50's. It was a great loss when he passed away.
I got the impression from the stories he told that there was some friction then between Yoshinkan and Aikikai. So I can believe the independence
of events.

peace

siwilson
11-12-2004, 03:59 PM
Craig,

I have found that many try and change history to fit in with what will elevate their position or vantage their opinion.

Politics has no place in my Aikido, and I now practice in the Kenshinkai (still Yoshinkan) and we actively keep politics outside of our Aikido!!!!!!

Charles Hill
11-13-2004, 07:21 PM
If I am understanding Greg`s point, I think that many others are not. I don`t think Greg is saying Aikikai is better or that Kisshomaru Doshu is part of every Aikidoist`s lineage. (If I`m wrong Greg, please correct me.) I think the point is that due to the organizational skills and efforts of the Doshu, aikido became well known throughout the world. This is entirely marketing, nothing to do with quality. Of course, we can only speculate, but I feel that Greg`s hypothesis has some validity. Just as that hypothesis cannot be proven, so can`t the statement "even without the Doshu, I would still be doing Aikido."

As for the Aikikai/Kinokenkyukai split, I have probably read as much as anyone and I still don`t understand the entirety of it. Also, that Shioda was sempai to Kisshomaru has no historical validity and doesn`t make sense in the Japanese concept of sempai/kohai.

Charles Hill

L. Camejo
11-13-2004, 08:40 PM
I'll have to agree with Sean regarding Ueshiba K. and his marketing skills or whatever and it's effect on my doing Aikido as well. Like Sean, the lineage of my training comes from the U.K. pioneers of Shodokan and from Tomiki's Japanese students. If I am am wrong, Sean please let me know.

I can't see how Ueshiba K.'s marketing of what is basically "Aikikai Honbu Aikido" would help popularise a form of training that Ueshiba K. himself indicated that "Aikikai did not acknowledge" as seen here - http://homepage2.nifty.com/shodokan/en/oshie6.html . It may be true for other Aikido groups in the USA, but may not be easily transferable to Aikido history and development in other parts of the world. For example, wasn't Yoseikan the primary form of Aikido found in France in the earlier days? How does Ueshiba K. get credit for this phenomenon?

Not all paths lead to Ueshiba K. imho. I for one am happy of that.:)

Just my thoughts..

Shodothug4eva:)
LC:ai::ki:

siwilson
11-14-2004, 01:01 PM
Also, that Shioda was sempai to Kisshomaru has no historical validity and doesn`t make sense in the Japanese concept of sempai/kohai.

Hmmm, so someone is not Sempai to you if they started training before you? O'Sensei didn't teach Aikido to children as he said it was not suitable.

I have also seen it in print that K. Ueshiba regularly visited the Yoshinkan Hombu and would rei to and address Kancho Shioda as Sempai. It is made as a distinct point, to show that even though he was Aikikai Doshu, he still paid respect to his seniors.

raul rodrigo
11-14-2004, 01:25 PM
O'Sensei didn't teach Aikido to children as he said it was not suitable.

.

Osensei started teaching Michio Hikitsuchi (10th dan, dojocho of Shingu) and Hiroshi Isoyama (8th dan, dojocho of Iwama) when each was about 12.

siwilson
11-14-2004, 01:49 PM
Osensei started teaching Michio Hikitsuchi (10th dan, dojocho of Shingu) and Hiroshi Isoyama (8th dan, dojocho of Iwama) when each was about 12

Yep, and they were the exception. It was actually in reference to them starting that it was stated that O'Sensei didn't teach chldren. He made an exception for them.

deepsoup
11-14-2004, 04:17 PM
I have also seen it in print that K. Ueshiba regularly visited the Yoshinkan Hombu and would rei to and address Kancho Shioda as Sempai. It is made as a distinct point, to show that even though he was Aikikai Doshu, he still paid respect to his seniors.

By that reckoning, Tohei K. and Tomiki K. were also senior to the second Doshu. Would you say he paid respect to them too?

siwilson
11-14-2004, 04:36 PM
Haha!

Well the relationship between the Yoshinkan, whose way I follow and the Aikikai has always been good. I am aware of fraid relations between the Aikikai and some other ways of Aikido.

For me, politics is b*ll*cks and I try to stay away. Train and let train I say! I have practiced with Aikikai and I regularly train with Tomiki Ryu, so I keep myself open. Yoshinkan is still the only way for me, but I will steal from any art!!! My Judo days as a kid hae been most useful in that respect, as have sparring with a double hard b****** and getting my head beaten in in anything goes striking arts!

:D

:ai:

raul rodrigo
11-14-2004, 06:27 PM
Over at our Aikikai dojo, we have a pretty good relationship with the Filipino Yoshinkan practitioners, graduates of the senshusei course and one of them is actually an instructor at Yoshinkan Hombu in Tokyo. This guy, Ballares sensei, teaches a class for us now and then and he says that the ties between Yoshinkan and Aikikai are pretty good; the instructors know and are very friendly with each other.

Joe Bowen
11-14-2004, 07:08 PM
By that reckoning, Tohei K. and Tomiki K. were also senior to the second Doshu. Would you say he paid respect to them too?
Also, that Shioda was sempai to Kissomaru has no historical validity and doesn't make sense in the Japanese concept of sempai/kohai. Charles Hill

Shioda.G (Started in 1932), Tomiki.K (Started in 1926) both started aikido before Ueshiba.K. Tohei.K, according to the Encyclopedia of Aikido available through Aikidojournal.com started Aikido in 1939, while Ueshiba.K from the same reference started in 1937 (serious training). Therefore, both Shioda.G and Tomiki.K are "Sempai" to Ueshiba.K, but Tohei.K is not. Sorry. I know you, for some reason you really want him to be.
Honestly, don't know why some people seem to want to come down hard on Ueshiba.K. The man did some really good things for Aikido. His father, O Sensei, left him the legacy for the art, and he really advanced it. Spread it. Maybe he wasn't directly involved in how your Yoshinkan, Tomiki or Ki Aikido instructor got to whatever country you practice in, but Aikido's popularity today is due in part to him. Would Aikido still have spread if he didn't due what he did? Sure. Just not as quickly.


Tohei Sensei began to modify his Aikido and Aikido instruction in response to his experiences with western students in the 1950's. He as always stated this was the case in interviews. It's backed by memories of early American Aikikai students. He clearly discusses "unbendable arm" and other Ki exercises in his 1961 book written while staying for an extended period in Hawaii in 1959-1960. Tohei Sensei's methods of teaching with Ki exercises and his general method of Aikido instruction can be seen already quite intact in the mid-1960's. His demonstrations of Aikido from then are quite recognizable in style to the current Ki Society technical syllabus. The black and white almost hour long teaching film by him from the mid-1960's clearly shows this as does the "This is Aikido" companion book first published around the same time.
These are things O-Sensei and Ueshiba K. signed off on at these "radical modifications" at the time. Black Belt magazine articles from the mid-1960's on Aikido (like on the NY Aikikai) all sound like preaching from Tohei Sensei's Ki bible.
The pedagogical differences don't really explain the family spat and conflicts of personalities and politics after O-sensei's death. Just like not all is on the surface about what happened after Saito Sensei's passing.

The Unbendable arm, Funakogi Undo, Ikkyo Undo and various other "Ki" exercises cannot be attributed solely to Tohei Sensei and were probably a part of the Aikido regiment for quite some time. If you look at many of the Yoshinkan, and Tomiki Aikido exercises you will find similar exercises. These styles of Aikido were probably not influenced by Tohei Sensei. Old file footage reflects O Sensei engaging in several demonstrations of Unbendable Arm, sometimes while holding onto a bokken. Ki demonstrations by O Sensei were not uncommon. Tohei.K doesn't hold the patent on Ki. Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't he study other forms of Ki development under other Japanese instructors other than O Sensei, like, Tempu Nakamura Sensei. Tohei.K was an important part of the development of Aikido and its spread to the US, without any doubt (unless you'd like to argue the Tomiki or Yoshinkan aikido school development as parallel and separate) and Tohei.K had a big influence on most of the Uchideshi at Aikikai Hombu dojo in the 50's and 60's like Yamada Sensei. But, realize that the references you make are aimed at US students and Tohei.K at the time was the only one with the English ability, so naturally, it seems like those are solely his ideas. If you haven't, you should read "Complete Aikido: Aikido Kyohan: The Definitive Guide to the Way of Harmony" Roy Suenaka Sensei. I'm not a student of Suenaka Sensei but read his book and his chronology of his study of Aikido includes the split from Hombu dojo by Tohei.K and Suenaka Sensei's departure with him. He also details why he and several others who also followed Tohei.K during the split left the International Ki Society. You might find it interesting.
There is an old saying that "history is written by the victors", meaning that history is colored by whomever is telling it. I'm sure that Ki Society folks like to think that Tohei.K is the greatest that ever was, as Yoshinkan folks will tell you that no, Shioda.G is the greatest and Tomiki folks will tell you that Tomiki.K is. I've read several of Tohei.K's books and seen "This is Aikido" book you mention. They are good sources of instruction and supplement any Aikido training you will do, but that doesn't make his path the "best" path.

Greg Jennings
11-14-2004, 08:04 PM
If I am understanding Greg`s point, I think that many others are not. I don`t think Greg is saying Aikikai is better or that Kisshomaru Doshu is part of every Aikidoist`s lineage. (If I`m wrong Greg, please correct me.) I think the point is that due to the organizational skills and efforts of the Doshu, aikido became well known throughout the world. This is entirely marketing, nothing to do with quality. Of course, we can only speculate, but I feel that Greg`s hypothesis has some validity.
Yes, Charles, that's pretty much what I'm saying.

Without the "critical mass" of practitioners and teachers created by the evangelizing of Ueshiba K., Tohei K., many of us might not be practicing aikido...even the Yosh guys despite the interesting and effective organizational structure of the Yoshinkan.

And if anyone here thinks that I'm "One True Waying" or even "Best Waying" or whatever, they're 180 degrees off...and should know better.

Regards,

PeterR
11-14-2004, 08:29 PM
The Japan Aikido Association (Tomiki) was formed in 1974 - until that time we were at least in theory part of Aikikai. The connection was still quite strong (and this holds true for Yoshinkan Aikido also) during the early 50s. I think both organizations benefited enormously from the work of Ueshiba K. both within Japan and abroad and to this day there is a strong correlation between the growth of popularity of Aikido in general (dominated by the Aikikai) and the other styles.

Unfortunately Ueshiba K. also presided over a partial fragmentation of the Aikikai and therefore might have been responsible for putting a break on the development of both Tomiki and Yoshinkan Aikido abroad.

Charles Hill
11-15-2004, 01:04 AM
Si,

Do you really think that the Founder made an exception for Hikitsuchi and Isoyama but not his own son? Kisshomaru Ueshiba has said himself that he has been practicing his whole life. Of course, as was pointed out in another thread, "senior" and "sempai" are not exactly the same thing. As the Founder`s son, I`m sure that Kisshomaru was not considered sempai nor kohai. From what I have seen and read, I`d guess that Shioda and Ueshiba K. had more of a friendship than anything else. They were only about 6 years apart in age and both were small. There is a picture of the two, very young, where Ueshiba K has his hands on Shioda`s shoulders.

Charles Hill

deepsoup
11-15-2004, 10:35 AM
Sorry. I know you, for some reason you really want him to be.
Honestly, don't know why some people seem to want to come down hard on Ueshiba.K.
I don't think you do know me Joe, I don't particularly want Tohei K to be senior to Ueshiba K., I just thought that was the case. And I certainly don't want to 'come down hard' on Ueshiba K., just feel that he's not a paritcularly important part of my personal lineage, thats all.
Without the "critical mass" of practitioners and teachers created by the evangelizing of Ueshiba K., Tohei K., many of us might not be practicing aikido...even the Yosh guys despite the interesting and effective organizational structure of the Yoshinkan.

On the subject of that "critical mass", I think there's someone else who deserves some credit and seems to be very rarely acknowledged in Aikido circles. In the UK at least, and I guess in much of the rest of the world, Aikido first arrived to find some people already dressing up in white pyjamas to practice a devious japanese martial art based on 'yielding'.
The concept was already established in the public conciousness.
There were already dojos, in which people were wearing dogi and using the kyu/dan ranking system. They were, of course, Judo dojos, and the first generation of Aikido students and teachers were drawn from those dojos, or had come here to teach in them.

I suspect Aikido would be very much less widespread by now if all that pioneering groundwork hadn't been done in the half century or so leading up to the foundation of our art, so a big hand please, for Jigoro Kano and the Kodokan.

Sean
x

Greg Jennings
11-15-2004, 10:59 AM
On the subject of that "critical mass", I think there's someone else who deserves some credit and seems to be very rarely acknowledged in Aikido circles. In the UK at least, and I guess in much of the rest of the world, Aikido first arrived to find some people already dressing up in white pyjamas to practice a devious japanese martial art based on 'yielding'.
The concept was already established in the public conciousness.
There were already dojos, in which people were wearing dogi and using the kyu/dan ranking system. They were, of course, Judo dojos, and the first generation of Aikido students and teachers were drawn from those dojos, or had come here to teach in them.

I suspect Aikido would be very much less widespread by now if all that pioneering groundwork hadn't been done in the half century or so leading up to the foundation of our art, so a big hand please, for Jigoro Kano and the Kodokan.

Hi Sean,
No arguments from me there. My conversation was only related to the contributions of Tohei Sensei and the late Doshu.

Joe Bowen
11-15-2004, 05:05 PM
I suspect Aikido would be very much less widespread by now if all that pioneering groundwork hadn't been done in the half century or so leading up to the foundation of our art, so a big hand please, for Jigoro Kano and the Kodokan.Sean x

No argument on that one from me either. I think that Martial Arts in general owe a good deal to Jigoro Kano. He was truly a great man.

Joe

siwilson
11-18-2004, 03:11 PM
Yep,

Kisshomaru Ueshiba had nothing to do with me training Aikido (nearly prevented me from doing so), but Jigaro Kano certainly did. I started training Judo over 20 years ago and it was my introduction to martial arts. Also, my late teacher was looking for Judo while in Malaysia, but Thamby Sensei had stopped teaching Judo and was only teaching Aikido, So Sensei Stratton started Aikido.

Thank you Kano Sensei.

And a huge thank you to Sensei Stratton and Thamby Sensei!!!!!!!!!

:ai: