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Miguelspride67
11-02-2004, 08:19 AM
In Aikido we never attack. An attack is proof that one is out of control. Never run away from any kind of challenge, but do not try to suppress or control an opponent unnaturally. Let attackers come any way they like and then blend with them. Never chase after opponents. Redirect each attack and get firmly behind it.

The beauty of Aikido is that you can vary moves, just as long as you keep within the Aikido principles of redirection and adjustment.

batemanb
11-02-2004, 08:58 AM
I'm not sure I understand your post having read your question.

Simplified.

Most Aikido techniques derive from the battlefield in ancient Japan, katate dori is not so much an attack (although it can be) as someone trying to prevent a sword being drawn.

In Aikido, this particular attack makes for a simple way to teach and practice certain principles within a technique. It is a simple way to get a good grounding in basic technique.

rgds

Bryan

Ron Tisdale
11-02-2004, 09:56 AM
ok, I'm going to get blasted for this...

In Aikido we never attack.

Check out the pre-war aikido of the founder recorded in the book 'Budo'...also any of the pre-war films of Ueshiba Sensei. Ikkajo, nikajo, sankajo, yonkajo...the omote version is all done from shite (nage) attacking. The students of Saito Sensei do the same today, as does the yoshinkan, as well as some other styles.

An attack is proof that one is out of control.

Not in my experience.

Never run away from any kind of challenge, but do not try to suppress or control an opponent unnaturally.

I know plenty of challenges I'd run away from (guns, knives, too many opponants) as long as I wouldn't leave someone I care about in the lurch. Oh...how do you define unnaturally? Sometimes we hit the person first...then control or suppress them...is that unnatural?

Let attackers come any way they like and then blend with them.

I remember an advanced class with a japanese 7th dan in the yoshinkan where a student used the word 'blend'...the instructor asked 'blend? what is this blend?' :)

Never chase after opponents.

Many styles always follow up uke after throwing during freestyle.

Redirect each attack and get firmly behind it.

No arguement there...this sounds like a translation from one of Ueshiba Sensei's post war writings. Loosely translated, of course...

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
11-02-2004, 10:51 AM
A translation of the paragraph above that I feel a little more comfortable with:

Aikido is non-violence. Every human being has been entrusted with a mandate from heaven, and the victory we seek is to overcome all challenges and fight to the finish, accomplishing our goals. In Aikido we never attack. If you want to strike first, to gain advantage over someone, that is proof your training is insufficient, and it is really you yourself who has been defeated. Let your partner attack, and use his aggression against him. Do not cower from an attack; control it before it begins. Nonviolence is the true practice of Aikido.

Abstract taken from Shambhala Guide to Aikido by John Stevens (Boston: Shambhala Publications, 1996) found at site: http://www.aikidofederation.com/selectedTeachings.htm.

The things to remember about quotes like these are:

a) Context, context, context...

b) translation, translation, translation...

c) Same person...different times...different statements, different practices. In fact, even at the same time... :)

RT

cguzik
11-02-2004, 11:50 AM
Miguel,

Are you saying that katatedori is not an attack? If so, I have to disagree. I think ukemi requires giving a good, strong attack, and that katatedori can be just as much so as any other attack. I also think that it is perfectly appropriate in aikido to take the initiative as tori, rather than to wait for the attack to come. According to what I have read and been taught, this understanding is not inconsistent with the teachings of the founder.

Chris

akiy
11-02-2004, 12:26 PM
Also, see the Katatedori as an "Attack" (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6713) thread.

-- Jun

Ron Tisdale
11-02-2004, 12:53 PM
Hi Jun,

Have you read the original japanese of the quotes above? I'd be interested in your take on the various translations...

Ron

akiy
11-02-2004, 01:09 PM
Hi Ron,

No, I can't say I have. Does the author reference a source for the quote in Japanese?

-- Jun

suren
11-02-2004, 01:15 PM
Miguel, could you please specify you question in more details? I think people do not understand your question made in a manner of a set of phrases expressing questionable ideas.

suren
11-02-2004, 01:19 PM
BTW, How did you manage to make the number of "Gallery Images" to be -1? :confused:
Jun, is it some sort of bug in the system?

Ron Tisdale
11-02-2004, 03:07 PM
Hi Suren,

Its not a bug...its a 'feature'...

Ron (yeah, I work with computers...) :)

suren
11-02-2004, 04:25 PM
Jun is fast in fixing those "features" :)
Ron, (yeah me too)

siwilson
11-02-2004, 05:02 PM
Miguel,

There is attack in Aikido! Katate Mochi/Dori is an attack!

In Aikido we never attack. An attack is proof that one is out of control.

I have such a big problem with statements like that! They usually come from soft style beginners that have read Aikido and the dynamic sphere, where they say there is no attack in Aikido!

Can you imagine, your wife/girl friend is being atacked and you have to say, "Sorry love, there is no attack in Aikido, so I can't do anything!" There is a massive amount of attack in Aikido, and AATDS is talking total rubbish!

Aikido has a very itelligent approach to defence and attack! The moral and spiritual Aikidoka shy away from the real Aikido that Ueshiba Sensei taught, which was hard and realised the very real statement that "attack is the best defence!"

Although, certain people in the world should learn that the above is only true when there is a real threat!!!!!!

Osu!

Si

Peter Goldsbury
11-02-2004, 06:12 PM
Hello Ron,

You might like to to balance the quotations you have given with the material entitled "Training Methods" that precedes the techniques shown in the 1938 "Budo" manual. In the Stevens translation it appears on pp.32-36. In the Japanese original, the page references are pp. 3-6. Have explained how to attack in these pages, Morihei Ueshiba then goes on to explain how to defend oneself against such attacks. (This material also appears in the 1933 "Budo Renshu" manual, but with slight modifications.)

Best regards,

Ron Tisdale
11-03-2004, 01:28 PM
Hi Peter,

That is exactly the material I was thinking of. Are you aware of the original language texts that John Stevens was translating in the quote I posted? If so, I was wondering if you would care to profer a translation, or if you could perhaps add some context? I'll recheck both "Budo" and "Budo Renshu" when I get a chance...

Chuck.Gordon
11-03-2004, 03:37 PM
In Aikido we never attack. An attack is proof that one is out of control.

Eh? WTF?

Who says? You've never had ME attack you have you? I could show you some controlled agression. It might make you piss your pants. ;)

Aikido MUST include GOOD attacking skills or it's a gelded, useless thing, no?

Who's your teacher? Have that one give me a call or e-mail. We could probably have some very fun talk over beers or glasses of wine.

Aikido is about RESOVLING conflict. It has nothing about being passive and non-violent.

Otherwise, it's just masturbation, neh?


Chuck

Chuck.Gordon
11-03-2004, 03:50 PM
And besides, folks who question katatedori as an atack have obviously never had it properly applied.

Chuck

George S. Ledyard
11-03-2004, 04:50 PM
In Aikido we never attack. An attack is proof that one is out of control. Never run away from any kind of challenge, but do not try to suppress or control an opponent unnaturally. Let attackers come any way they like and then blend with them. Never chase after opponents. Redirect each attack and get firmly behind it.

The beauty of Aikido is that you can vary moves, just as long as you keep within the Aikido principles of redirection and adjustment.
I just posted an article which relates to this subject on:

Aikido Journal Article (http://www.aikidojournal.com)

The idea that the nage waits for the attack is really a mistaken idea and is martially disadvantageous.

Charles Hill
11-03-2004, 06:20 PM
The idea that the nage waits for the attack is really a mistaken idea and is martially disadvantageous.

This makes sense to me. That is why Gichin Funakoshi`s "In karate, there is no first attack" confuses me. Was he simply wrong? Also, we have to somehow deal with the Founder`s "In Aikido, we never attack."

I`m not clear on the relationship between the first post and the thread title.
Charles Hill

Miguelspride67
11-04-2004, 03:18 PM
Ok, let me tell you something people. What i just posted up there are words from Morihei Ueshiba, there were found in documents and poems. Morihei Ueshiba (1883-1969) was history's greatest martial artist. Even as an old man of eighty, he could disarm any foe, down any number of attackers.

Miguelspride67
11-04-2004, 03:25 PM
i would like to gather diferents opinions on the subject

Miguelspride67
11-04-2004, 03:34 PM
im not saying katatedori isn`t an atack. what im trying to ask is what is the objective?, why advance students prefer Shomenuchi and Yokomenuchi?, What is the true goal of Katatedori for an Aikido student of any level?

Dominic Toupin
11-04-2004, 03:36 PM
There is no greatest martial artist...

Miguelspride67
11-04-2004, 03:45 PM
you are wrong my man. You know nothing. Aikido originated with Morihei in Japan, it was intended to be a gift for all humankind. Many more have been and will be inspired by the universal message, i hope you will to. When the time comes dont be afraid, you would to be part of the family.

The divine beauty
Of heaven and earth!
All creation,
Members of
One family.

suren
11-04-2004, 03:46 PM
I think we use katate dori to practice certain techniques (as we use any other attack). It's not usually applied in a fight as a first aggressive move, attackers usually prefer to punch first, but can well be a later part of attack. In my life I was grabbed that way several times during school fights, but it was never at the beginning of the attack.

Ron Tisdale
11-04-2004, 03:47 PM
Ok, let me tell you something people. What i just posted up there are words from Morihei Ueshiba, there were found in documents and poems. Morihei Ueshiba (1883-1969) was history's greatest martial artist. Even as an old man of eighty, he could disarm any foe, down any number of attackers.

:) Didn't you read the response where I stated this was from a quote? And the reasons why I had a problem with the way it was phrased?

As far as being history's greatest, well...

Your enthusiasm is admirable, but perhaps just a little short sighted.

Be well,
Ron

suren
11-04-2004, 03:47 PM
BTW, I've never been grabbed in morote dori during such a fight. So if I were to question their combative value I would rather question morote dori than katate dori.

Miguelspride67
11-04-2004, 03:57 PM
i like how Ghuck Gordon talks. i like what you have to say. And i also like a couple of glasses of wine and some beers to try not to masturbate or self. Chuc i want to hear you.

suren
11-04-2004, 04:13 PM
If I were an aikidoka with 5 month experience and I would like to see or hear a person practicing the art since 1973, I would use different words.
BTW, what was the topic of conversation? Oh yes... attacking...

Miguelspride67
11-04-2004, 04:28 PM
Suren how much you being practicing?, From your tone its look like sin 1903. If you are so smart answer this?, Where exactly is located Gajuki Dojo.

suren
11-04-2004, 04:38 PM
Miguel, I'm practicing for 4 month and I'm sorry, I do not know where exactly Gajuki Dojo is located. And I do not think I'm very smart (even though I defended my PhD when I was 24).
Anyway, I think this thread is very educational. It presents a question "Why certain attack is used" and part of the question suggests that Aikido does not attack. Chuck Gordon presented an attack in his post. You failed to blend and redirect. And now I hope you know why attacks are used in Aikido - to teach us how to deal with them. As for a higher level of attack application, I would suggest you read an article written by George Ledyard sensei and posted on www.aikidojournal.com.

Miguelspride67
11-04-2004, 04:46 PM
JA thats the kind of actitud i want at this thread. Chuck, you Suren and me should meet. i liked what you wrote:
(I've never been grabbed in morote dori during such a fight. So if I were to question their combative value I would rather question morote dori than katate dori.)

we got almost the same time at Aikido. thats no coincidence.

suren
11-04-2004, 05:12 PM
Nice to hear that. I would not mind a meeting with you and Chuck as I'm sure I can learn a lot from both of you. I would suggest Chuck's place since they have good beer :)

ChristianBoddum
11-04-2004, 05:32 PM
Hi !
Nishio sensei has stated that katatetori is at the heart of Aikido,since it is really not an attack,
in Aikido we use katatetori because we don´t fight ,we don´t want to be at a distance from each other,so really it is a gesture - a friendly one ,in order for us to cooperate instead of fighting.
Like shaking hands you could say.
From that point we can learn principles of Aikido.
Of course katatetori can have attacking elements - grab and punch with the other hand,
but that you will learn as you train.

yours - Chr.B.

Charles Hill
11-04-2004, 10:28 PM
BTW, I've never been grabbed in morote dori during such a fight. So if I were to question their combative value I would rather question morote dori than katate dori.

Hi Suren,

Interestingly, I read an article by Burt Richardson, a Jeet Kune Do teacher, that said that a morotedori type grab is the best way to defend against a knife attack. He actually seemed to indicate that this is the only way to not get cut.

Charles Hill

Atomicpenguin
11-04-2004, 10:31 PM
What exactly is the question being asked in this thread? I'm not sure what it is that's being said about katatetori. Are you trying to say that it shouldn't be used since it's an attack? And if that's the case, why do we use any attacks in Aikido? Would it be better to have a class with just two people standing on the mat staring at each other for an hour?

BTW, I've never been grabbed in morote dori during such a fight. So if I were to question their combative value I would rather question morote dori than katate dori.
Out of curiosity, how many fights have you been in? And in those fights, did you ever see anyone attack with a formal shomenuchi or yokomenuchi either?

And i also like a couple of glasses of wine and some beers to try not to masturbate or self.
Huh?

The idea that the nage waits for the attack is really a mistaken idea and is martially disadvantageous.
I must agree.

Atomicpenguin
11-04-2004, 10:41 PM
Ok, let me tell you something people. What i just posted up there are words from Morihei Ueshiba, there were found in documents and poems. Morihei Ueshiba (1883-1969) was history's greatest martial artist. Even as an old man of eighty, he could disarm any foe, down any number of attackers.

This raises an interesting issue. Does anyone think that deification is detrimental to long-term training? My gut reaction is that it is, however, I wonder if holding the self to an unattainable ideal would necessarily detract from one's actual skill level. Certainly it offers an excuse for yudansha who feel incapable of attaining perfection and it seems an almost necessary phase of early training. Nonetheless, I'm curious about whether or not someone could maintain that sort of perception about one's seniors/founders on into a more advanced level and still make the same degree of progress as one who did not. I am familiar with practitioners who have carried such a perception but in none of those cases am I familiar with the person's Aikido abilities. Any thoughts?

suren
11-04-2004, 11:18 PM
Hi Suren,

Interestingly, I read an article by Burt Richardson, a Jeet Kune Do teacher, that said that a morotedori type grab is the best way to defend against a knife attack. He actually seemed to indicate that this is the only way to not get cut.

Charles Hill

Charles, you are right, I've never attacked anybody with a knife :) I'm just not aggressive person.
Once I've been attacked with a knife, but attacker was too incompetent, so I just ignored the knife and he did not harm me.

suren
11-04-2004, 11:28 PM
Out of curiosity, how many fights have you been in? And in those fights, did you ever see anyone attack with a formal shomenuchi or yokomenuchi either?


Huh?

Not many. During my school and university years overall maybe around 10-15 times. In last 5 years - 0. Katate dori was used couple of times when someone tried to set me up for a punch and once when I was aiming at opponent's stomack, he grabbed my hand and kicked me. So not much expertise here.
As for formal shomenuchi and yokumenuchi, I don't think they were ever used. Instead usually there were hooks and straight punches. But I believe if you know how to deal with yokumenuchi and tsuki, you will figure out something against a punch or a hook.

suren
11-04-2004, 11:48 PM
My thoughts of morote dori is that it's probably not very wise to grab someone's one hand with your two hands leaving the other unattanded... At least I've never seen such a thing and I would probably not do it myself.

Miguelspride67
11-05-2004, 07:58 AM
So whats going to be, Katate-tori its really an attack? or is the best way of practice a technique Whit out damaging a student?. If is an attack, so Aikido i base on attacks.

Greg Jennings
11-05-2004, 08:46 AM
My thoughts of morote dori is that it's probably not very wise to grab someone's one hand with your two hands leaving the other unattanded... At least I've never seen such a thing and I would probably not do it myself.
So, do you do ikkyo, nikyo, sankyo, yonkyo, gokyo, kotegaeshi, or sumiotoshi?

Ever thought of morotedori as an attempted applied shomenuchi yonkyo?

I'm not a little guy (6'2", 200 pounds), but I've had people almost bounce me off the mat with katatedori.

I'm not good enough to do that, but I haven't run into too many people that I can't throw with morotedori.

Best,

suren
11-05-2004, 12:29 PM
So, do you do ikkyo, nikyo, sankyo, yonkyo, gokyo, kotegaeshi, or sumiotoshi?

Ever thought of morotedori as an attempted applied shomenuchi yonkyo?

Good point and probably people who does jiyu waza with resistance can answer this question better than me.


I'm not a little guy (6'2", 200 pounds), but I've had people almost bounce me off the mat with katatedori.

I'm not good enough to do that, but I haven't run into too many people that I can't throw with morotedori.

Yes I can imagine someone being thrown from morote dori. However in a fights situation (again, I'm not at all an expert in this and haven't been in that situation for a long time) I would not imagine a person to allow grab him that way. In the simplest case he would probably either move back to avoid the grab or move his hand most probably down and back (though moving it to a side may also work) and possibly applying atemi with the other hand. I'm not even talking about experienced fighter, the above scenario can be performed instinctively by a child.

Anyway, I don't want to defend a point which I myself don't think to be very strong. Please reread my initial post about morote dori, which says that in MY little experience I've have never seen it applied and if I WERE to quesiton application of any attack in a fight, morote dori would be the first candidate.

Feel free to continue this discussion, but please do not assume I'm an expert in real fights or I'm against practicing morote dori.

Greg Jennings
11-05-2004, 12:58 PM
However in a fights situation (again, I'm not at all an expert in this and haven't been in that situation for a long time) I would not imagine a person to allow grab him that way.
Just wanted to say up front that I'm not trying to put anyone on the defensive, just to make a point in a Socratic kinda way.

Here is one way to visualize how morotedori happens.


1. Uke initiates shomenuchi while stepping or sliding into aihanmi.
2. Nage extends a'la shomenuchi to meet and parry the attack and perhaps execute a technique like ikkyo.
3. Uke attempts to steer nage's extended shomen to name's front, thus "opening the door" toward nage's shikaku, big toe to little toe a'la ikkyo ura.

If allowed to "open the door" complete the movement, uke will take nage's yonkyo spot with what started as his back hand, break nage's balance by "floating him" with the yonkyo, then tenkan into a nice applied yonkyo ura.

(I actually like to do this omote, but the ura seemed easier to describe).

4. Nage perceives something is going on, and centers/does the Iwama kokyu extension thing/extends ki to keep shoulders down and the grabbed arm on center line.

We're now in what we think of as the starting point of morotedori.

There is a rich set of possibilities behind what we're doing in aikido.

For me, personally, if I weren't explicitly thinking about those possibilities and exploring them (I sometimes say "peeling the layers of the onion"), I wouldn't be doing aikido anymore.

Everyone else's milage might vary and I'd be cool with that.

Best regards,

suren
11-05-2004, 01:04 PM
Nice explanation Greg. I almost visualized Kokyu ho as a continuation.

Greg Jennings
11-05-2004, 01:30 PM
Nice explanation Greg. I almost visualized Kokyu ho as a continuation.
Wonderful, Suren. I'm always happy to be of any added value.

I hope you'll think about what I posted about "peeling the onion".

Warm regards,

suren
11-05-2004, 01:33 PM
I hope you'll think about what I posted about "peeling the onion".

Greg, you should stop watching that "Shrek" movie :)

j0nharris
11-05-2004, 01:44 PM
In our dojo, katate dori is often followed up by a strike from the other hand, or a kick.
And almost certainly, someone grabbing for your shiny new wristwatch on the sidewalk would be close to katate, as well.
Someone placing their hand on your wrist isn't much of an attack if they have no intention... it's what they intend to do after they grab you that you may want to be concerned with.

Just my two cents -- or less given the way the economy is going :)

Miguelspride67
11-05-2004, 05:08 PM
So do you people think, katate-tori should be followed by an atemi?, i think if we do it always we will be practicing jujutsu. What do you think?,
Some guys have told me katate-tori is in Japan a gesture like shaking hands, and others keep saying is an attack.
If is like shaking hands should we practice a technique with our friend that salute us?

Nive explanation Greg :)

suren
11-05-2004, 05:43 PM
Shaking hands ?! :hypno: :freaky: :crazy:
Left to right? Or right to left?....
Is this a joke? If so you got me!

Charles Hill
11-05-2004, 11:18 PM
Does anyone think that deification is detrimental to long-term training?

Rinjiro Shirata was pretty clear that he thought O`Sensei to be a kami sent to offer humankind a path to enlightenment. He trained longer than just about anyone and was the only shihan that I haven`t heard disparaged by someone, a technical genius by all accounts.

Charles Hill

racingsnake
11-06-2004, 02:55 AM
Isn't katatetori also used because it is a stable and useful introduction to the concept
of ma-ai? It's also an easier beginner's position than the more likely (in a real-life
altercation) mune- or sode-dori.
Hope this helps -
Robin Wilton

Atomicpenguin
11-06-2004, 09:44 PM
Rinjiro Shirata was pretty clear that he thought O`Sensei to be a kami sent to offer humankind a path to enlightenment. He trained longer than just about anyone and was the only shihan that I haven`t heard disparaged by someone, a technical genius by all accounts.
Interesting. I know little about him and was unaware that he held that belief. So your answer to my question then, is no, deification (literally, here) is not detrimental to training. Hmmm....

seank
11-07-2004, 12:39 AM
Isn't katatetori also used because it is a stable and useful introduction to the concept
of ma-ai? It's also an easier beginner's position than the more likely (in a real-life
altercation) mune- or sode-dori.
Hope this helps -
Robin Wilton

Very good point Robin. We have always been taught that Katate tori and Kata tori should be practiced as tool for understanding ma-ai. The technique may have potential as an attack in the real world (let's be honest, quite literally anything can happen and can be used in a fight), but it is particularly useful for learning the point at which an attacker breaches ma-ai.

I have seen a few senior Aikidoka use katate tori in a rather unique way; it's surprising (and sometimes amusing) to see an attackers reaction when said Aikidoka puts an open hand "in their face". Quite often the attackers first reaction is to grab the hand, or try to stop the arm. I'm sure the attacker doesn't intend to grab the arm, but what else do you do in response to an ostensible attack aimed straight at you?

Good thread though guys

batemanb
11-07-2004, 03:45 AM
I just read this link in another thread on katatedori over in the techniques thread. I think it`s also relevant here.

http://bujindesign.com/newsletter/2001.2.vol13/training.shtml

rgds

Bryan

Miguelspride67
11-08-2004, 11:07 AM
Isn't katatetori also used because it is a stable and useful introduction to the concept
of ma-ai? It's also an easier beginner's position than the more likely (in a real-life
altercation) mune- or sode-dori.
Hope this helps -
Robin Wilton


i think my friend Robin got a point over here, is safer and easier to beginners to learn how energy travels from UKE to NAGE in katatetori.

jester
11-08-2004, 03:38 PM
Even as an old man of eighty, he could disarm any foe, down any number of attackers.

Don't believe the hype.

Miguelspride67
11-09-2004, 09:16 AM
what are you trying to say TIM, that the founder couldn't disarm any man when he was eighty.
He didn't need to disarm, he could disappear.

Miguelspride67
11-09-2004, 09:20 AM
Once we have learned how to grab from a protected position, we can next explore variations of the grab...either pulling, pushing or holding. After all, in a martial or street situation the grab is only the first step. It is used to hold or to draw the victim closer, in order to gain control. That accomplished, the next move could be a blow to the face or a choke or some other controlling move.


Hey Bateman this is good. This should be all to those ignorants, please learn before making an unfaithfully reply from Aikido.

Ron Tisdale
11-09-2004, 09:51 AM
I haven't seen any ignorant or 'unfaithfully' replies...anyone else?

Ron :)

Miguelspride67
11-09-2004, 10:57 AM
ok, so Ron tell me about pracitce in a Doshinkan Dojo. im from Aikikai

Miguelspride67
11-09-2004, 11:01 AM
Seminar: Donovan Waite Sensei in Dominican Republic
Posted 11/04/2004 10:45pm [from Miguel Angel Pérez]
On November 21, Donovan Waite Sensei (6th Dan Shidoin) will be at the Dominican Republic. ShugyoShin Dojo Aikikai in Santo Domingo is glad to celebrate their first anniversary at the Matsunaga Gym with a Donovan sensei seminar which takes place 10am until 7pm. For more information visit our website at www.Shugyoshindojo.i8.com

batemanb
11-09-2004, 11:11 AM
Hey Bateman this is good. This should be all to those ignorants, please learn before making an unfaithfully reply from Aikido.

Hi Miguel,

I`m sorry but now you`ve really got me confused?

rgds

Bryan

Miguelspride67
11-09-2004, 11:22 AM
im not talking about you Bateman, Im putting your words showing a very good material.

batemanb
11-09-2004, 12:11 PM
Hi Miguel,

thankyou

rgds

Bryan

Ron Tisdale
11-09-2004, 03:26 PM
Well, you could do a search on my name here, at e-budo, or at aikidojournal...I'm kind of tied up with network problems right now...maybe in a couple of days I can see if I can write something up.

The brief version is that the Doshinkan was founded by Yukio Utada Sensei, a 7th dan under Gozo Shioda Kancho's organization of Yoshinkan Aikido. Utada Sensei just celebrated his 30th year teaching in Phila. The web-site is www.yoshinkai.org, I believe. There are pictures and some mpgs on the website, so feel free to take a look and browse around. In fact, the technique on the front page should give you a pretty good idea of what some of the techniques are like :) I think his yearly message is on there too. That should give you a good start.

Best,
Ron

Roy Dean
11-09-2004, 04:00 PM
Miguel,

One of the most heartbreaking things in the world for Aikidoka to persevere through is the disillusionment of realizing that O-Sensei, as marvelous as he was in his prime, was not invincible.

The more passionately you believe that he was, the harder the fall when you recognize that his students were taking polite ukemi, and that his art, Aikido, will not make you the "invincible' warrior that Morihei Ueshiba is often described as.

Just my perspective, from someone who has been down that road before. Something to think about.

Roy

Demetrio Cereijo
11-10-2004, 05:31 PM
ATTENTION: Violence and maybe harsh language.

You can see katatedori as a setting for a takedown in this video clip. A fight in a Hawaiian beach.

http://www.bullshido.com/videos//Hawaiian_Beatdown.wmv

Running time between 3.10 and 3.17 approx.

Katatedori is not an "unrealistic attack" if the attacker is a BJJ'er.

Miguelspride67
11-11-2004, 11:18 AM
Roy thanks for your advice, really. I'm not trying to be invincible, but for real I'm always trying to be better than The founder. I've been down the road my self, I'm in martial arts for 6 years now, i have practiced Kung-Fu and Tai-chi from Zhao-Bao.
I'm grateful of meting friends like you, i think people can learn at any place and any time.

ian
11-11-2004, 12:34 PM
Miguel,
O-Sensei...was not invincible. The more passionately you believe that he was, the harder the fall when you recognize that his students were taking polite ukemi, and that his art, Aikido, will not make you the "invincible' warrior that Morihei Ueshiba is often described as.
Roy

I would agree that Ueshiba is idolised to some extent, however I think much of the video footage with 'polite ukemi' is misunderstood. Ueshiba was illustrating blending, and if uke just throws themselves over, you let them. The most interesting snippets are where uke changes or resists, and you'll see Ueshiba respond very quickly and continue to unbalance uke.

Also aikido is a framework of training - not a realistic attack scenario. In actual challenges Ueshiba was known to be very devestating and regularly used crippling strikes. What we see in video footage is only one aspect of (in my opinion) a very well rounded and skilled martial artist.

However I completely agree with your sentiment Roy - we have to be the best we can be rather than just imitate someone else.

ian
11-11-2004, 12:42 PM
P.S. in my experience katate dori is used (e.g. by security, bouncers, police etc). However IMO it serves a fundamental aspect of aikido; starting from contact and learning to blend with that person. There is no different between katate dori and a strike except that you need to make contact initially with uke, rather than the contact already existing. In addition (and as mentioned previously), katate dori serves a very traditional role; if you are armed with a sword or knife (or gun) your opponent is likely to try and grab your wrist to try and stop themselves being stabbed. All the aikido techniques allow you to kill someone, who is trying to restain you, with your weapon.

Miguelspride67
11-11-2004, 04:33 PM
Hey what a fight Demetrio, i think i saw this guy at the real life on a MTV documentary. Its him

Roy Dean
11-11-2004, 06:00 PM
Miguel,

Cool response. We can all learn from each other, and the day we stop is the day our techniques trap us in a box of our own design.

If your heart's goal is is to truly be like the founder, then I'd urge you to learn all you can in Aikido, then go back and learn the roots from which the art came. Any good aikijujutsu will enhance your perspective on what Aikido is and how it came to be. Also, achieving martial mastery has never been easier than now, with the advent of the internet and martial training videos. An entire wold of martial techniques are now available, for the first time in history. Good luck and good training to you, my friend.

Roy Dean

Miguelspride67
11-15-2004, 11:06 AM
Just a few days for our Donovan Sensei Seminar, I'm exited.

garry cantrell
11-15-2004, 12:29 PM
ATTENTION: Violence and maybe harsh language.

You can see katatedori as a setting for a takedown in this video clip. A fight in a Hawaiian beach.

http://www.bullshido.com/videos//Hawaiian_Beatdown.wmv

Running time between 3.10 and 3.17 approx.

Katatedori is not an "unrealistic attack" if the attacker is a BJJ'er.

OUCH! :uch:

Chad Sloman
11-17-2004, 07:53 PM
ATTENTION: Violence and maybe harsh language.

You can see katatedori as a setting for a takedown in this video clip. A fight in a Hawaiian beach.

http://www.bullshido.com/videos//Hawaiian_Beatdown.wmv

Running time between 3.10 and 3.17 approx.

Katatedori is not an "unrealistic attack" if the attacker is a BJJ'er.

he's lucky he didn't get his elbow broken with that grip. I see ikkyo going backwards by the guy that got beat up.

Eric Cyr
11-24-2004, 09:40 AM
Katatedori!! Ha!
I'm Canadian, I know too well why Katatedori is used! Watch hockey, you'll understand why. :uch: Katatedori is a set up for an attack. Like mune tori or katadori, you know something is coming. In essence it is a control that allows you access to a certain body part.

It has may, many, many applications, like taking someone's balance or creating an opening for an attack or a technique or stopping their movement by pinning their legs down by extending your Ki through there arm and sending it down into their legs so they can't move. It is also a method of helping beginners to understand the dynamics, rhythm and flow Aikido. For beginners it is a vehicle for understanding and for more advanced students it is a way of effectively, literally, taking hold of a particular situation to better your chances for success. While holding on to someone's limb you are exercising control over them. This also gives you a sense of where the person is while being blinded. Like having a thick jersey pulled over your head in hockey! :D