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oudbruin
10-17-2004, 12:31 PM
While most of us have had interface at some point in our lives with the occasional drunk, I am very curious to see how many law enforcement officer types are able or willing to discuss thier interaction with the uke loaded on PCP or other drugs
I ask this because, the normal motivation with uke is inflection of pain to a joint or limb., or else a takedown from thier centre/third leg.
A person on PCP (even some really loaded drunks) generally has no normal pain recognition, so what works? ( Aside from a single tap to the head?)
I've heard some police here on the east coast, comment that Aikido isn't effective simply because druggies and some drunks really don't have the normal responses to pain.
Any law enforcement types want to comment?
Bruce

Michael Hackett
10-17-2004, 02:54 PM
Dear Bruce,

I haven't run into any trouble using ikkyo, nikkyo and sankyo on drunks or those loaded on most recreational drugs. PCP is another matter, although I have very little PCP arrest experience. I've only dealt with two people on PCP and I was very impressed with their strength and resistance to pain. In the first case we had enough folks on site to swarm the 100 pound woman and get her under control. In the second case I was by myself and was at the point of dislocating the suspect's shoulder using my baton as a lever when he simply quit fighting (to my great relief).

Generally aikido-based techniques have worked really well for me, particularly with drunks. With their reaction slowed and balance and coordination already impaired, it usually was easy to redirect them into custody.

Course, you folks grow 'em pretty tough in Trenton - spent a lifetime there one Saturday night and ended up married to a Jersey girl.

Michael

Nacho_mx
10-17-2004, 05:43 PM
I've heard Tasernage works wonderfully with this types.

stoker
10-19-2004, 08:34 AM
The chemicals in their system really screw up the timing of the pain signals to their brain. I have been told horror stores from cops and bouncers about drugged out men trying to punch with hards that have factured bones sticking out or having various stabbing items hanging out of their bodies.

A cop told me about aman who smashed his own hand in a car door in order to make the hand small enough to get out of handcuffs! Imaging you have a wrist lock on a person who is will to really sacrifice his bones.

son mai
10-19-2004, 08:41 AM
But the point of the lock is not the pain or the wrist is it? I thought you were trying to control the whole person. Trying to take them off balance and control their body.

Mathias
10-19-2004, 08:58 AM
I see Aikido as a way of taking your opponents balance, not a way to inflict pain. Even such techniques as Nikyo and Sankyo can be balance breaking techniques if you want them to. So i donŽt see why Aikido wouldnŽt work on someone on drugs. If your attacker are on drugs it is quite possible that their balance is worse than usual, so in fact Aikido may work BETTER...

The thing i would be really afraid of is that people on drugs tend to not give up when a normal person would. So restraining someone in a pin may be very difficult. I for one would try to throw them once and then run in the opposite direction fast as h*** :)

Tim Gerrard
10-19-2004, 09:09 AM
How about Aikido WHILST drunk??

deepsoup
10-19-2004, 04:09 PM
How about Aikido WHILST drunk??
Never tried the waza, but the ukemi have helped me out on a few, rather embarassing, occasions.

Sean
x

ChristianBoddum
10-19-2004, 05:09 PM
Hi !

For every one beer you drink you loose a belt -

after 3 beers youŽd better not get in trouble .

just my thoughts -

yours - Chr.B. :rolleyes:

mj
10-19-2004, 05:56 PM
But the point of the lock is not the pain or the wrist is it? I thought you were trying to control the whole person. Trying to take them off balance and control their body.

I agree. And welcome to Aikiweb :)

Lyle Laizure
10-19-2004, 08:48 PM
For every one beer you drink you loose a belt -after 3 beers youŽd better not get in trouble .just my thoughts -

I'm afraid my pants may fall off. LOL

tenshinaikidoka
10-20-2004, 03:19 PM
I have no personal knowledge of someone high on PCP, which I have heard does make the person non responsive to pain, however I have used Yubi Dori and several joint locks successfully on drunks. In my opinion, Aikido works wonderful on most suspects that are resisting or have a problem complying.

Kristian Miller-Karlsen
10-20-2004, 04:38 PM
Hi all,

A colleague of mine found that kote gaeshi is a formidable technique for use on aggressive drunk people. To completely turn someone upside down often helps them let go of any urges for attack. They might also like to become your friend after too. However, I've found that simply taking a drunk person's shikaku is enough. I've never had to pin or restrain an intoxicated person though. I believe that may be a whole different kettle of fish.

Aikido whilst drunk? I don't believe that drunken style Aikido is really worth researching. Even if you believe that it is necessary to be able to perform effective technique under any circumstances. Aikidoka have a responsibility to society to not drink too much and certainly not get drunk.

maikerus
10-20-2004, 06:17 PM
Aikidoka have a responsibility to society to not drink too much and certainly not get drunk.

Hmmm...You've never trained at the Yoshinkan hombu, where instructors have been known to make it their responsibility to get you drunk.

And I seem to remember some stories about various founders...but lets not get into that.

This is a personal decision (and laudable) but I wouldn't try to say that it is one of the responsiblities that we take on because of our study of Aikido.

--Michael

vanstretch
10-21-2004, 02:45 PM
I am with Michael H., having minimal dealings with persons U.I. of PCP that I had to struggle with to effect an arrest. Thank god. One call I responded to, involved a man that was climbing up to a first story hotel baclony and jumping off it, just climbing up and jumping off it in a continuous manner. When we arrived he was still doing it and appeared that he was landing on both feet as if catlike in a springing motion with bent knees. On closer inspection, the guys' complete ankle/foot was dangling and the guy was really landing on the legbone like it was a stilt ! PCP 4ya. He took the ambulance.

Ron Tisdale
10-21-2004, 03:02 PM
Aikidoka have a responsibility to society to not drink too much and certainly not get drunk.

uh, yeah, this strikes me as a little odd too...I think aikidoka (even out of japan) drink an exceptional amount of beer...and get drunk at a reasonable clip too. As long as you don't drive drunk, no problem with me. 'Course, I'd prefer it if you didn't barf in my vacinity, too...

RT

Yokaze
10-21-2004, 04:21 PM
Not much I can say here that hasn't been said before. There is a bit though.

I've known plenty of cops with experience dealing with PCP junkies.

If you know somebody is on the stuff when they attack you, RUN THE HELL AWAY.

I don't care how skilled you are. Try fighting a crazed monster who is twice as strong as any human has a right to be and is completely immune to pain. Half of the unbalancing in Aikido seems to be in making the opponent WANT to go down in order to escape the pain.

Your muscles have two thresholds. There's the normal amount you can flex your muscles before the pain is too great. That pain exists in order to keep you from injuring yourself. If you take enough PCP, however, all pain is erased. Without the pain, your muscles can flex nearly twice as hard, because you're flexing them without regards for the later consequences. (You want proof? Ask the woman who lifted the back end of a car to get her kid out. That was just adrenaline.)

I've heard of a 100 pound teenager knocking out three 200 lb cops before finally being taken down. you fight someone like that, and the rules of physiology, the rules Aikido is based on, go out the window.

So you run and hope to god that they don't decide to chase you.

mj
10-21-2004, 05:03 PM
I can assure you I am reading these horror stories with a very cynical mind.

Insane people on PCP repeatedly jumping off buildings with broken legs? A 100 lb teenager taking out 3 trained cops?

o-O

Kristian Miller-Karlsen
10-21-2004, 05:35 PM
G'day Michael,

You got me on that one! I've never trained at Yoshinkan Hombu. I had no idea drinking was encouraged so much. I like a good beer or sip of sake as much as the next man. In moderation.

I never read anything about The Founder, Osensei, drinking or getting drunk. Wasn't it to do with his practice? His path of Aiki being one of spiritual and physical misogi. I though that excessive alcohol consumption would hinder that process?

Can anyone clear that one up? I'd be most appreciative.

Yokaze
10-21-2004, 06:32 PM
I can assure you I am reading these horror stories with a very cynical mind.


I know it's hard to believe, but pain is one of the things that keeps us from bringing out our full physical potential. I can't lift the back end of a Volkswagon, because the pain would stop me. If, on the other hand, my little sister's leg was caught under the back tire, you can be damn sure that car is coming off the ground. It's happened before, by people older and weaker than myself (no ego intended).

Now, I'd probably rupture something doing it. Strain tendons, disks, rip muscles. In the moment, however, all that is forgotten. Adrenaline is powerful stuff.

PCP is like adrenaline times 10, plus it messes with your mind. In large amounts, it can literally stop you from feeling pain while, at the same time, removing your rationality. Is it so hard to believe that someone would survive jumping off a building when they can't die from the shock of the pain? Is it so hard to believe that a teenager can resist several grown men when his heart and muscles are working on overdrive?

I've heard worse stories. Things that seem even more impossible. Those, though, are third-hand stories. I actually know a guy who helped subdue the teenager I referred to.

oudbruin
10-21-2004, 08:44 PM
As I prefaced this- most cops localy tell me that if they think the perp is on PCP, it's a tap to the head if ther arn't enough cops to swarm the wacko.
As for ETOH- yeah, most of the time reactions are slowed down and the pain receptors work fine- 90$ of the time...It's those few drunks that either have some strange mix of chemestry or .. whatever..
tasers work on normal folks- don't think it's gonna work on the amped up kid on crystal meth or pcp.
as for crack users..since thier CNS is generally shot after a few weeks of usage, no problem there...
oh well, just an observation..

maikerus
10-21-2004, 09:19 PM
G'day Michael,

You got me on that one! I've never trained at Yoshinkan Hombu. I had no idea drinking was encouraged so much. I like a good beer or sip of sake as much as the next man. In moderation.

I never read anything about The Founder, Osensei, drinking or getting drunk. Wasn't it to do with his practice? His path of Aiki being one of spiritual and physical misogi. I though that excessive alcohol consumption would hinder that process?

Can anyone clear that one up? I'd be most appreciative.

I can only give you my experience, but drinking is a very large part of Japanese culture and seems to be one way of allowing kohai to yell at sempai without there being any retribution. I have read some texts that talk about Shioda and Ueshiba partaking in this tradition. I believe it might have been in Aikido Shugyo or some early translations of it - don't know if it got in the final translation - but am not positive.

Part of the culture includes pouring each other drinks. In fact its considered bad form to pour your own glass. So, what you do, is your pour someone else's glass and then they fill you up.

Since in the Aikido parties there are many, many seniors and guests present that you have to introduce yourself to and pour drinks for you end up getting many drinks poured for you.

Once you've been to a couple of these parties you figure out the tricks that allow you to drink mostly in moderation, but if a senior instructor catches you at that...you might as well write the next morning off.

vanstretch
10-21-2004, 10:59 PM
To Mark Johnston, the cynical reader, and respectfully; I can see your point, if you aren't a cop or medic who has encountered persons under the influence of mind-bending substances then, yeah, it would seem odd huh? We had a pair of cuffs on dispay for awhile that a PCP suspect broke out of. These were not the old chain connector handcuffs of our fathers generation, these were the new ,stronger welded hinge-cuffs. The jaws of the irons were bent and the internal hardware useless. It looked like they were worn by the Terminator himself! Adreneline is the strongest of drugs, yes, now factor in a chemical such as PCP, dust, meth,etc, and a mental malfunction(s) and it is easy to see how these impossible feats occur. Take care. Daniel.

George S. Ledyard
10-26-2004, 05:52 AM
I can assure you I am reading these horror stories with a very cynical mind.

A 100 lb teenager taking out 3 trained cops?

o-O

If you had any notion of what training cops have had, you wouldn't question a story like that.

Bronson
10-26-2004, 08:48 AM
A 100 lb teenager taking out 3 trained cops?

Ever take a little kid to get their vaccinations? I remember it taking three adults to hold me down and I was just a little tyke :D

Bronson

tenshinaikidoka
10-26-2004, 10:20 AM
I agree with you Mr. Ledyard, as a police officer, the training we receive in an academy setting for what they call "Defensive Tactics" are nothing but muscling an opponent. through Aikido however, I have had much success dealing with most subjects, however my co-workers have not. Although I have tried to show them the benefit, they refuse to at least try a class. But, oh well!!!!

Hagen Seibert
10-26-2004, 11:02 AM
I never read anything about The Founder, Osensei, drinking or getting drunk. Wasn't it to do with his practice? His path of Aiki being one of spiritual and physical misogi. I though that excessive alcohol consumption would hinder that process?

Can anyone clear that one up? I'd be most appreciative.



Just read the "doka of the day" occasionally.
This man must be drinking ........ well, sometimes perhaps ;-)

Kristian Miller-Karlsen
10-26-2004, 03:37 PM
Thanks Michael,

Good to know these things are based on tradition. I'll remember that next time I'm at the pub with the other members of my dojo.

On the actual topic at hand though. I've encountered drunk and very aggressive people before. Aikido is effective against them. In relation to people affected by PCP and other drugs, I've never had any dealings, luckily. Surely in a circumstances where an individual is completely out of control as in the ways described above, the using of atemi, to render the aggressor unconscious would be an acceptable Aiki-waza. I think the effects of such a strike would be far less detrimental than the effects of the actual drug ingested.

Brightsky
10-27-2004, 11:18 AM
I concur with Michael H. and Daniel V.
I do however want to respond to Mark J.'s statement on taking out 3 cops. I dont believe he said they were "taken out". Something to keep in mind. The academy here instructs us to use strength in numbers when possible. It looks far better from an on lookers point of view to see several police struggling with one subject because each is using a minimal force, than it does to see one officer have to fight like a demon against one subject. The fbi did a study and said that 7 out of 10 times if a leo is rendered unconscious or incapacitated he or she is killed. And it could only take one strike to knock someone out. Remember we bring all kinds of weapons to every fight, so each altercation is a life or death struggle for us, more so if we are by ourselves.
If someone is on pcp it basically makes them immune to pain and it makes them seem to have the strength of 3 people. Maybe you oughta inquire about a ride along program in a big city in scotland and maybe u may get "lucky" enough to see it for yourself.

Todd Worobey
11-09-2004, 10:00 PM
I have found even the most basic of Aikido locks to be tremendously effective in the field compared to styles I have employed in the past. These are the types of patients, as well as psychiatric ones, who are most likely to cause me trouble in the field (I'm a Paramedic). I have used Aikido several times against methamphetamine OD's, psyche's & "drunks". Absolutly fantastic results every encounter, and no one gets hurt.

tiyler_durden
11-10-2004, 01:57 AM
Hey All,

I think you are taking the extreme here with people on drugs or drunk.
I must admit that yes there are some horror stories and there are some violent and severe stories.
Yet as I lived in Belfast (Northern Ireland) with some extreme people who do get excessively drunk and like their drugs I can tell you that Aikido does work on them as you will find that most drunks are usually very good and once they know they are down and there is no way to beat a person or situation they are good.
As for people on drugs the same type of reactions if not better as you can talk to them and they respond better!

I know that most cultures are built on fear and horror stories of drug heads getting completely messed up and have broken arms and legs and keep on going but what you must remember is this:

HOW MANY CRAZED DRUG HEADS HAVE YOU ACTUALLY BEEN CONFRONTED BY IN YOUR LIFE?

Tiyler

csinca
11-10-2004, 09:58 AM
Going back to apoint that was made earlier, if you are relying on pain to make a technique work, you are doing something wrong.

Chris

Todd Worobey
11-10-2004, 11:43 AM
I agree, pain control techniques are less effective against someone under the influence of nearly any substance, joint locks are great however. Another thought is why are you having problems with these people in the first place? Are you seeking out confrontation? Going into areas frequented by such people? Desperate people resort to crime to feed their addictions. Dealing with people like this is a requirement of my job as well as my fellow brothers & sisters in law enforcement & fire dept. The public do encounter them but often many such confrontations can be avoided in the first place. Isn't that the way of Aikido?

Seigikai
11-26-2004, 09:53 AM
Aikido is the way of peace. If you get in these situations, then you have failed training aikido. I think that aikido is last resort to get out of these situations. Thats why i dont really like that someone use aikido in arest someone. To me, aikido is purely self defense...

Amendes
11-26-2004, 10:38 AM
While, possibly Their Aikido is not effective.

I HAVE used Aikido on two occasions successfully on a drug addict while high once and once while definitely drunk. I know Aikido is effective on these people.. Submision is different then beating someones head in over and over.

Trust me, I know a drug addict (and I mean hard drugs too, one of his favorites being crack)
And he is also an alcoholic..

But not once have I've never hurt him, but I've moved him, and he responded to the pain I gave him while escorting him out.

Perhaps the people who say it is not effective don't make their training real.
For me if you don't make your training real then your not training properly anyways, and should go home.

Our Sensei asked us the other day. "Who here has had to use aikido physically outside? Put up their hand." While in our class of about 20 I believe two of us put our hands up. One used aikido when he fell and I used it to escort someone out once and to stop someone from attacking me another time. It made me feel like I was ineffective because my hands had to be used instead of my mouth and nobody else said the same.

But I assure you lots of people use Aikido through words. Later I will post a story of an Aikido student since I have to return to work now that my lunch has ended.

DaveO
11-26-2004, 11:02 AM
HOW MANY CRAZED DRUG HEADS HAVE YOU ACTUALLY BEEN CONFRONTED BY IN YOUR LIFE?

Tiyler

More than one. Next question?



Ok.

Dude; we're not talking about some general; hypothetical thing here - we're talking about a very real; critical danger - one of the worst situations a cop can face. Please keep in mind this thread is focussed on the cops on this forum.
Now for the record; I agree with you - how often is the average person likely to have to deal with this situation? Answer - next to never; though I should point out that such a situation is not strictly environmentally controlled; it can happen any time; any where nowadays. Thing is; in this particular situation cops aren't 'everyone else'.
For them; this can be a daily ocurrence. Particularly those that work the inner cities such as Detroit; Dade County, Scarborough, etc. - drugs are a real problem...and its the cops that have to deal with that problem. In other words; they're the ones that can't hang back; they have to go in and physically lay hands on someone; knowing he's crazed on adrenaline/artificial drugs. That's the reason for the question; and the reason a lot of cops study aikido and similar arts - it adds another - nonviolent - weapon to their arsenal.

Now - let me address one other point:

Yet as I lived in Belfast (Northern Ireland) with some extreme people who do get excessively drunk and like their drugs I can tell you that Aikido does work on them as you will find that most drunks are usually very good and once they know they are down and there is no way to beat a person or situation they are good.
Sir; I don't know what types of drunks you're used to dealing with; all I can say is - wow; you're lucky. :) Beyond alcohol, adrenaline, drugs, etc. fear of capture and the desperation to escape also adds norepinephrine to a perp's chemical cocktail. Forget a guy whose had a bit too much and become rowdy; we're talking serious Jekyll-and Hyde time here. All semblance of Human rationality is submerged; the pure animal fight for survival takes over. You will see perps handcuffed in the back of a cruiser; bashing their way out through the window with their face; fighting with all the insane panic an animal will use to gnaw its own leg off to escape a trap etc.
Hope this helps to clarify things. :)

AikiRooster
11-26-2004, 09:30 PM
PCP persons.....................for cops the best medicine is a whole bunch on top of that person, protects you criminally, civilly as well as right nowwy.

Huker
11-29-2004, 09:52 AM
Going back to apoint that was made earlier, if you are relying on pain to make a technique work, you are doing something wrong.
Chris

Sorry, Chris, I don't mean to target you here, I'm just using your post as an example.

Many here insist that relying on pain to make a technique work is not how aikido is to be done. This is fine, we all know that by now, I'm sure. I have heard many of you say many times that resisting a technique or a pin causes a significant amount of pain and can cause injury. So, think of the pain issue this way: pain is not a way to make a technique work, but is can be a consequence to uke if he/she resists or tries to fight too much. So, when people say that druggies are resistant to pain and so aikido is a little harder to do, don't think that they have no idea what they are talking about. They probably have grounds for their opinions.

csinca
11-29-2004, 10:56 PM
Tanner,

No worries, interesting comment. I still stand by my statement, if you are "relying on pain" you are doing things wrong. Of all the great aikido I have felt, none of it hurt until I hit the ground. I certainly agree that pain can result from proper aikido but I do not believe that proper aikido relies on pain. Yes it "hurts" or is uncomfortable but a solid technique shouldnt have to hurt.

In this particular context, I have seen people do things while intoxicated that under normal conditions would have stopped them cold, including broken hands and in one case a cracked skull. I have been fortunate enough never to be around anyone that is on PCP or any "hard drug" and I'm game to keep it that way. Anyway, part of the original question really has to be "what about the guy whose pain threshold is magnified or removed?" If you're relying on pain to make him stop, it's going to be a sad day or two.

Chris

AikiRooster
11-30-2004, 11:17 AM
PCP folks and some others, do have a high tolerance to pain.........until the drug they are on wears off that is. That's why it is good to get a whole buncha coppers on top of the subject, that's right weigh them down because they are incredibly strong as well. Of course, the ultimate goal is to get a pair, probably more then one pair of cuffs on the suspect and probably not just the wrsts either, ankle ones as well, sometimes it might be better to hog tie someone like we are discussing. I'd strongly suggest the use of gloves as well to avoid any bodily fluid contact from the individual as they like to pee and poop on ya when your trying to do these things to them.
There are some effective pins that work if you ever find yourself being in the position to have to try and restrain one of these homies too. However, keep in mind, you might have to try one to many to find the one that work's on the individual subject your talking about and hopefully, when you do get the suspect under control, you have access to a radio or at least a phone to call for backup asap.
Peace my friends.
Tim!

fatebass21
11-30-2004, 11:33 AM
I would say that I deal with drunks more than druggies. I work for a private security company on the supervisory staff for the swing shift. We respond to alot of bar fights. While I have seen situations where my aikido training might have helped (only one year of trainig as of now) the situation, I have not applied any in a real-life situation as of yet.

What would you guys say is the most effective techinique agaist a drunk?

Alvin H. Nagasawa
12-28-2004, 03:32 PM
I was involved in training Aikido to HOD recruits back in the 80'. There we Big Guys there, Line backer type, some with a attitude problem. But a good nikyo, sankyo put them in there place. I remember my teacher was invited to a Military Police training class. These guys surrounded the teacher and two of the sempai. They wanted to test them out. My teacher said "I want your biggest & Strongest guy first". That was the end of that situation, The MP's were thanking the teacher and sempai for coming and asked them to return again to teach them Aikido.
As for the wording "Aikido vs Druggies and Drunks" as a police officer you are bound to protect & Serve. Using digressions on the part of druggies and drunks, don't handle it alone, Get backup. Use a non violent form of taking down the person. Police brutality stains the public opinion of the police department.

Where as if you are a normal law biding Joe!, Call 911. As a M.A. Instructor, you might be charged for Brutality or even the death of that person. It's not worth going to jail and shaming your teacher and Dojo.

David Yap
12-28-2004, 08:49 PM
...snipped... So, think of the pain issue this way: pain is not a way to make a technique work, but is can be a consequence to uke if he/she resists or tries to fight too much.

Aikido is also the art of kuzushi (unbalancing the opponent). If you have acquired a good level of skill in kuzushi (understanding & application), your uke would have minimal chance of resistance or counter.

So, when people say that druggies are resistant to pain and so aikido is a little harder to do, don't think that they have no idea what they are talking about. They probably have grounds for their opinions.

Not just aikido, IMO almost every other MA (BJJ included) is ineffective against person high on drugs or an amok person. Ask any law enforcement officer that has experienced such situation. The situation is chaotic, formless and the person is baton resistant and rubber bullet proof. The LEO is exposed to risk of acquiring HIV/AIDS caused by open wounds and contact with body fluid from an infected druggies.

Just my 2 sen.

David Y

ryujin
01-19-2005, 05:56 PM
Aikido is the way of peace. If you get in these situations, then you have failed training aikido. I think that aikido is last resort to get out of these situations. Thats why i dont really like that someone use aikido in arest someone. To me, aikido is purely self defense...

In the case of dealing with crazed dope fiends running amuk, for those trained in aikido that are using it in their policing professions, isn't aikido being used to maintain the greater peace by subduing the ones disturbing it?

Philosophy aside, it is classified as a "Martial" Art.

:circle:

ryujin
01-19-2005, 06:08 PM
I have bounced several inebriated people from a nightclub using simple arm locks and subdued one very violent guy with Hadaka Jime.

Correct me if I am wrong, Please. If one had to physically subdue a person on PCP, I would think a choke hold would be the best way to go. Applied correctly it should take but a few seconds to render the person unconscious.

Yeah...No...Maybe?

:crazy:

AikiRooster
01-19-2005, 08:01 PM
Carl:


Obviously, what you say about the choke hold is an obvious yes. However, keep this in mind about chokes:
Law Enforcement is no longer allowed to use the choke hold for a reason, that reason is mainly because it is too easy to kill someone by mistake with them. If you ever use a choke hold, I advise you to only use it when you would also shoot that same person you were going to choke if you had been armed with a firearm. Other then that, pretty much if you use a choke hold, make your plans for going to jail for the rest of your life or close enough to it to make you want to not use that choke hold.
BE VERY CAREFUL WITH CHOKEHOLDS. Mistakes that come with using choke holds are the kind of mistakes you don't get a second chance with.

Michael Hackett
01-19-2005, 11:29 PM
The carotid sleeper hold is still used by many, many police agencies today. Most refer to it as a "choke hold" although there is no choking involved. The bar arm choke has been prohibited by most US agencies as it can damage the airway beyond repair. The carotid sleeper can certainly be fatal if applied too long or if the individual has some unique medical situation. It remains a viable option for someone trained and experienced with it and can save lives, including that of the suspect.

One of the biggest downsides to the carotid sleeper is most folks apply it with their strong arm curled around the suspect's neck and locked with their weak arm. That leaves the handgun exposed to a grab and hard to protect.

EJC
01-20-2005, 06:21 PM
I have used Aikido on the job many times, it works great. My Sensei also teaches Combat Aikido to my 30 man SWAT team and 100 man RRT unit (crowd control). The Aikido has been tested and proved effective many times in Police work.

For the record, the last guy I arrested on PCP bent my hand cuffs, flooded out his cell and ate and drank his own urine and feces! Yum, Yum (another good reason not to do drugs)

AikiRooster
01-20-2005, 07:04 PM
Eric

Veryy interesting stuff and some funny too.


Mike:

Understood and agreed, however, getting the techniques to fly [justified] in a case that is not an officer fighting for his life or for fear of losing his life is next to impossible these days. I just wouldn't do it. I damn sure wouldn't teach it to the troops I'm in charge of training, unless I knew the officer very very well and observed them in combat type situations and felt comfortable knowing they would not abuse the technique. It's hard to feel comfortable with most cops because so many of them just are not willing to put in the time training other then what's absolutely required of them for in-service training or something like that. Maybe an advanced unit that use to having alot of training time that seems to have most of there work week taken up by training that might obviously be different. Maybe swat, ERT or something like that, those troops do tend to be more open to the more long term training. I was talking about your normal walk the beat or cruise in the cruiser cops.
Take care all.

Michael Hackett
01-20-2005, 08:27 PM
Sorry Tim, but I couldn't disagree with you more. I understand your view about your level of trust in your officers and that's what I disagree with most, unless you work for the most dysfunctional agency in the US. Our officers (throughout the country) are hired after an extensive process including intellectual testing, background investigations, polygraph examinations, and psych testing. After all the testing, we train them to perform our tasks and then send them through a field training program, during which they are evaluated daily. Then they have to weather their probationary period of a year or more. At any point along this process they can be sent down the road without cause (in most jurisdictions). Your/our officers were hired in the first place because of their judgment, maturity, and ability to perform our tasks in the manner we prefer. Sometimes a bad apple slips through and causes all sorts of negative things, but the vast majority shows up for work every day, does a good job and goes home having added some value to the community. To sit around and worry that someone might do something wrong or incorrectly demeans all of your employees and is, frankly pretty patronizing. We hire responsible adults and should treat them as such. Give them the tools they need to do the job we desire and trust them to use them responsibly. If an individual fails to live up to our expectations, deal with the individual.

I don't have any heartburn if your agency, or any other, decides that a particular technique or piece of equipment won't be acceptable as a matter of policy, but to take the position that certain individuals have to pass some imaginary and subjective test is wrong. That's not leadership, that's paternalism. Nothing wrong with "trust, but verify" - just remember the key word is trust.

Damn, I've gone off on another rant here. You just found my sore nerve.

AikiRooster
01-20-2005, 08:44 PM
Mike:

Thank you. I understand completely with you disagreeing with the things I'm saying. I disagree with them too. However, in the system I am in, the put the responsibilty on my shoulders as an Instructor and they will not back me if I teach something other then what they autrhorized me to teach in DT certification. Yes, I have Dan rank, more then one even, but the Fed's are very anal about policy, and the FLETC policy is absolutely no choke holds at all being taught to the officers. No, I don't agree with that. The personal policy I've adopted is for my friends, when I trust them I might teach them things that are more similar to what we might call chokes. I don't teach it to the officer's because I am strictly forbidden to. However, I don't like that terminnology because they also like to say how a cop can only use that in the Federal system if he was in a fight for his life scenario. Well, I always then ask, how is that officer suppose to fight for his life if I am not allowed to teach him how in the first place? Maybe you can get away with teaching it easier then me, but for me, if I were caught teaching any of the cops that I have been warned that my Instructor status would imeediately cease.
City, County and State cops have it a little easier getting away with it then we Feds do I guess. Hope you understand better now. Don't hate the messenger. Just sharing with you Mike.
Any comments/suggestions?

Michael Hackett
01-20-2005, 08:56 PM
Dear Tim:

First of all, please don't mistake my disagreement for dislike. Your agency has set a policy and you have to obey it and even support it. I've been in that position too. If they tell you not to teach something, you have little choice, but to obey, quit your job, or convince them they are wrong. I respect your position and I would respect any of those three choices. I would be flamed if you went off and taught something proscribed anyway - in fact you'd probably be looking for a new home.

What galls me in our business is the attitude that we as administrators should treat our officers as if they were children. I've seen it a few times too many over the years and it has always offended me from a leadership perspective. Our employees are not children; they are responsible adult men and women and should be treated as such. Set rules, but set them rationally. Train people on the rules. Inspect their performance to the rules. Enforce the rules when necessary.

Rant over. I'll get off my soapbox now.

AikiRooster
01-20-2005, 09:18 PM
Mike:


10-4, Thanks again.

Yes, the Fed policy sucks bananas. The problem is not so much convincing the command of the need, most of them if not all of them agree with me. The problem is getting things chnaged in the Fed's almost takes an act of congress and not many are willing make noise that high for something that might seem trivial to them, especially since most of them sit in a warm, cozy office most of the days. Plus, money, manpower, liability all of that crap is incredibly screwed up in the Fed system.

That's what I meant what I was saying seeing my friends in a combat type of situation and seeing they don't freak, panic whatever, then I might teach them some other techniques in private just in case they find themselves in those oh s--t situations. I think all cops should be taught the choking techniques as well as wake up the badguy techniques, first aid and a couple of other things. Speaking of first aid, I think all cops should be certified EMT's as well since we seem to be first responders, literally. Often times we are there way before paramedics show up. Not to mention the fact that if our partner or another brother in blue gets severely damaged, I wonna be able to ease some of the pain before the medics finally get there.

EJC
01-21-2005, 05:39 AM
Mike:


10-4, Thanks again.

Yes, the Fed policy sucks bananas. The problem is not so much convincing the command of the need, most of them if not all of them agree with me. The problem is getting things chnaged in the Fed's almost takes an act of congress and not many are willing make noise that high for something that might seem trivial to them, especially since most of them sit in a warm, cozy office most of the days. Plus, money, manpower, liability all of that crap is incredibly screwed up in the Fed system.

That's what I meant what I was saying seeing my friends in a combat type of situation and seeing they don't freak, panic whatever, then I might teach them some other techniques in private just in case they find themselves in those oh s--t situations. I think all cops should be taught the choking techniques as well as wake up the bad guy techniques, first aid and a couple of other things. Speaking of first aid, I think all cops should be certified EMT's as well since we seem to be first responders, literally. Often times we are there way before paramedics show up. Not to mention the fact that if our partner or another brother in blue gets severely damaged, I wonna be able to ease some of the pain before the medics finally get there.

Tim,
Good points. I am a DT instructor in MA. We also are not allowed to teach choking techniques. When my Sensei trains my SWAT team, he teaches us how to "ESCAPE" from the choke.
But to train this, he first shows the cop playing the the bad guy roll how to properly choke some one. Then we all practice how to escape from chokes.....Get what I'm saying? ;)

AikiRooster
01-21-2005, 08:56 PM
Eric:


We too practice the chokes and the reviving techniques for helping those choked out. In the dojo of course we do that. For the life of me I cannot figure out why cops are not to be taught that. With what both of us said here, I am sure we can find alot of Master's/Sensei's that teach what we're discussing. Unfortunately, the Master's/Sensei's don't have the ability nor often times even the know how to background checks on the people they are teaching. So, with the strong possibility that a bad person is learning this stuff, that alone ought to be enough justification for cops learning chokes both offensively/defensively as well as the first aid afterwards, like reviving techniques, etc. Nothing should be off limits to a cops arsenol to protect himself or another in danger. Instead, it ought o be taught in law class that it should only be used as a last resort, for example, an officer is in a grappling situation witha suspect and cannot utilize nothing else becuase he/she cannot get to those tools or the opportunity is not present, to me that would be justification right there for an officer to utilize choking techniques, especially if the cop does not get the upper hand quick, others will be in danger. I think the law does more to protect the criminals then the cops or the victims. Often times, it seems in this society [Unites States], the cop is better off being a statistic rather then saving his or anyone else's life. Very frustrating!
Thanks for your reply Eric and God Bless. Stay safe.

JasonFDeLucia
01-23-2005, 05:12 PM
Eric:


We too practice the chokes and the reviving techniques for helping those choked out. In the dojo of course we do that. For the life of me I cannot figure out why cops are not to be taught that. With what both of us said here, I am sure we can find alot of Master's/Sensei's that teach what we're discussing. Unfortunately, the Master's/Sensei's don't have the ability nor often times even the know how to background checks on the people they are teaching. So, with the strong possibility that a bad person is learning this stuff, that alone ought to be enough justification for cops learning chokes both offensively/defensively as well as the first aid afterwards, like reviving techniques, etc. Nothing should be off limits to a cops arsenol to protect himself or another in danger. Instead, it ought o be taught in law class that it should only be used as a last resort, for example, an officer is in a grappling situation witha suspect and cannot utilize nothing else becuase he/she cannot get to those tools or the opportunity is not present, to me that would be justification right there for an officer to utilize choking techniques, especially if the cop does not get the upper hand quick, others will be in danger. I think the law does more to protect the criminals then the cops or the victims. Often times, it seems in this society [Unites States], the cop is better off being a statistic rather then saving his or anyone else's life. Very frustrating!
Thanks for your reply Eric and God Bless. Stay safe.
it may be hard for me not knowing first hand the legality for when to use it ,but if you can have a rule about the use of lethal force with a gun you should have a rule for a choke. if properly executed a choke need not render the person completely unconscious to be effective and in some cases it would be justifialble to put them out .but training in it should be seriously scrutinized and certified .treat it as a gun .what the expert could do the beginner could mess up .but to penalize an officer for using it justifiably so is not right.jmo

Drew Herron
02-08-2005, 09:10 PM
Hi !

For every one beer you drink you loose a belt -

after 3 beers youŽd better not get in trouble .

just my thoughts -

yours - Chr.B. :rolleyes:


Hmmm I now have a new goal...

I'll work my whole life and get to jyudan for the sole purpose of being able to chug 12 beers and still be able to pull off some decent throws. My new philosophy is that the next step after aikido is alkido.

-Drew :drool: