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Aikidoiain
09-30-2004, 04:20 AM
I was shown this while studying Hapkido. When an attacker with a knife attempts to rob you or whatever, try this - take off your jacket (as if to get your wallet), then quickly throw the jacket over the knife hand and simultaneously wrap it around the attacker's arm.

It confuses the attacker and allows you to side step and apply an ikkyo or any other joint lock to that arm - or indeed any number of other techniques. By covering the knife, you've also created a temporary shield against being cut.

Has anyone ever heard of this technique, or used it?

You could also wave your jacket in front of the knife hand as if you were bull-fighting! Once again, this confuses the attacker, thus allowing you to execute a low kick to the knee for example. Quite ingenious I think.

Another tip - always carry 2 wallets. Hide your main one about your person and leave the second one in an easy to find pocket. Put some money in the "decoy" wallet and maybe some other stuff, to make it look good. I always carry 2 wallets, in case everything goes pear-shaped! :)

Iain. :ki: :D

Aikidoiain
09-30-2004, 04:39 AM
I meant to add, a "heavy leather type" jacket offers the most protection.

Iain. :ki: :)

DaveO
09-30-2004, 06:00 AM
I've seen the technique - among several 'distractive' techniques.

Quite frankly; anyone tries that while I've got the knife in my hand; they can call themselves 'collander'. I don't mean to be rude; but it's going to be a pretty poor knife-weilder that'd be caught by something like that. Distractive techniques work great - in practice. In reality; a knife-wielder is going to be pumped on adrenaline; prepared and ready. He's going to be in control of the situation - that's the point (no pun intended) of the knife - control of the situation through domination and intimidation.

If you're going to use a jacket to distract an attacker (in the unlikely event he's standing in front of you saying 'this is a knife' and actually is dumb enough to let you take your jacket off); I strongly recommend throwing it at his head and running in the other direction.

The idea of carrying 2 wallets is useful though; it's far better to surrender a wallet than a life; and if that one's a worthless decoy; better for you. :)

Aikidoiain
09-30-2004, 07:24 AM
Hi Dave,

I've never actually used this technique either. I just thought it sounded interesting. When I've been held at knife point, I immediately put the attacker at ease by saying something like "Okay, but just don't hurt me!". This tends to calm them down and drop their guard for a moment - then I act. Although, sometimes, as soon as I see the knife, the attacker is lying on the ground from the kick he just received! That's my preferred approach - end it quickly.

In my experience, I've noticed that these knife thugs are scared - I've seen it in their eyes, so I always tried to remain calm. It has always been my belief that if someone really wants to use the knife, they'll simply walk straight up to you and stab you rather than "presenting" the knife to you. In such an instance, there would be no defense.

I've also spoken to teenagers who regularly carry knives, and they say "it's for their protection".In Glasgow, knife crime is a big problem. I've even seen 10 year olds carrying them!

Like I said, if someone shows you the knife, they're probably trying to frighten you - though, I would NEVER underestimate such a threat. I must stress that point. Every attacker is different, so I never drop my guard.

Yes, the jacket technique is a distraction, but apparently the Sensei who showed me this had tried it and it worked! So, you can never tell what an attacker may do.


Iain. :ki: :)

SeiserL
09-30-2004, 09:31 AM
IMHO, most real knife "attacks" are actually "ambush and assinations". You would never see it coming or have a chance to take you jacket off. If you can, you are dealing with a real amateur. Don't risk cutting up your nice jacket.

Read the November '04 Black Belt Magazine.

Bronson
09-30-2004, 01:51 PM
Read the November '04 Black Belt Magazine.

Bought it, but haven't had a chance to read it yet....gotta support our friends in the community :D

Bronson

Bronson
09-30-2004, 01:55 PM
The idea of carrying 2 wallets is useful though; it's far better to surrender a wallet than a life; and if that one's a worthless decoy; better for you. :)

I don't need two as my real one doesn't have anything in it anyway ;) :(

Bronson

Shane Mokry
09-30-2004, 03:02 PM
You know, they make a small 25 caliber pistol that fits in a wallet holster for just such an occasion.
Nothing says "oh crap" like bringing a knife to a gun fight.

Shane

Aikidoiain
09-30-2004, 05:34 PM
Sorry Shane,

This isn't the States you know! Guns aren't allowed here - nor is it legal to carry a knife for that matter. :D

Best form of self-defense is to stay indoors!


Iain. :ki: :) ;)

Keith_k
10-01-2004, 02:19 AM
I've seen this technique. The effectiveness is a bit limited, you have to get enough distance between yourself and the attacker to take off your jacket, then use it effectively. It's mainly a last resort technique, when you have to try SOMETHING. Belts are actually preferred, as they are easier to remove and can also function as a whip-like weapon. Whip the belt toward the attacker's face and eyes, keeping him at enough distance for escape. If the attacker uses the knife to attack, use the belt or jacket to entangle, then apply technique. It's not much, but it's something.

deepsoup
10-01-2004, 09:33 AM
Is there something about hapkido that fills people with a desire to take their clothes off? (Whilst robbing them of all contact with reality.)
I suggest wearing a reinforced bowler hat at all times. That way you can defend yourself whilst keeping your pants on. It worked all the time for John Steed though, admittedly, not quite so well for Oddjob.

Shane Mokry
10-01-2004, 11:22 AM
Iain,

I forget how lucky we are here. When we start talking about weapons vs. weapons, I always think of firearms as superior to anything else.Just like the long sword to the short sword. It provides distance. But carrying a handgun is also a great responsibility.Perhaps, If it really is that bad over there you might want to develop a "limp" and get yourself a nice fancy walking cane. I think that anyone who has the information of knowing the most likely attack is going to be and doesn't prepare for it ...well... I alway try not to leave an openings or chances. Here in Louisiana, we had a bad rash of car jackings. People would be sitting at intersections waiting for the stoplight to change and a thug wold come up, shoot them in the head, pull them out of their car and drive away in it. The state made it legal to shoot anyone approaching your car if you suspected they might be attempting a car jacking. Since then I haven't heard of one more car jacking in Louisiana.

By the way, how's your training coming? Have you noticed any improvement in your condition since starting at the new dojo?

Shane

George S. Ledyard
10-01-2004, 11:37 AM
IMHO, most real knife "attacks" are actually "ambush and assinations". You would never see it coming or have a chance to take you jacket off. If you can, you are dealing with a real amateur. Don't risk cutting up your nice jacket.

Read the November '04 Black Belt Magazine.

Lynn is right here! In the film Surviving Edged Weapons they did interviews with alarge number of police officers who had survived edged weapons attacks on the street. Not one of them knew it was an edged weapons stituation until after they had been stabbed, usually several times.

If the person has shown you the knife, they most likely have another goal, such as your money. Compliance may the best answer. The one time I had a knife pulled on me the guy just wanted to scare me, when I didn't react as he expected and simply pointed out the trouble he'd be in if he stabbed me, he went away.Of course I knew him by name and he wasn't the sharpest knife in the drawer...

Ron Tisdale
10-01-2004, 01:35 PM
and he wasn't the sharpest knife in the drawer...

hehehehehehe...

:) RT

Aikidoiain
10-01-2004, 01:59 PM
To Shane,

That's quite shocking what you just said about "being legal to shoot someone who approaches your car, if you suspected it was a car-jacking!" Sounds like a very grey area indeed. What if someone is just lost, and looking for directions? Wow - that's scary man.

Glasgow's bad enough with knives as it is. That's why I want to move up to the Scottish Highlands, out of the city.

As for my Aikido training - I'll keep you all posted in the journal I've just started.

Be careful out there!

Iain. :ki: :eek:

Shane Mokry
10-01-2004, 02:36 PM
Iain,

I never heard of any actual shooting of carjackers. I think the law itself provided enough deterrent that the car jackers decided to find another way to steal cars. There is alot to be said for allowing your citizens to defend themselves.

Shane

David_francis
10-01-2004, 02:43 PM
I've seen this technique. The effectiveness is a bit limited, you have to get enough distance between yourself and the attacker to take off your jacket, then use it effectively. It's mainly a last resort technique, when you have to try SOMETHING. Belts are actually preferred, as they are easier to remove and can also function as a whip-like weapon. Whip the belt toward the attacker's face and eyes, keeping him at enough distance for escape. If the attacker uses the knife to attack, use the belt or jacket to entangle, then apply technique. It's not much, but it's something.
Yeah i agree belts are much better.
You just unbuckle it, whip it off then your trousers fall down , with any luck your attacker might just have a stroke from laughing too much. Giving you enough time to pull your trousers back up and run away.

Keith_k
10-01-2004, 11:55 PM
Yeah i agree belts are much better.
You just unbuckle it, whip it off then your trousers fall down , with any luck your attacker might just have a stroke from laughing too much. Giving you enough time to pull your trousers back up and run away.

I don't know about you, but I generally don't wear trousers so loose that they fall down at the slightest provocation. If this would be problem for you, then of course using a belt as a weapon probably isn't the smartest idea.

David_francis
10-02-2004, 12:24 PM
Just a joke :) i meant no offense

Keith_k
10-02-2004, 09:41 PM
Just a joke :) i meant no offense
I apologise if I got riled up. It's the thing with writing, there's not way to tell tone or inflection to know who's joking and who's not.
:)

Robert Jackson
10-03-2004, 12:19 AM
When this happens to me I kneel down and pretend my wallet is my sock. I then suddenly rip off my shoe and throw it at them knocking them out. I've done this once and it worked great... There were a few differnces in the situation. The "attacker" was my brother and he was turned around watching tv when suddenly his head vicisouly got in my way. My shoe whapped him on the side of the head... throuogly pissing him off....

BUT his head did get out of my way. ;)

Keith_k
10-05-2004, 12:42 AM
When this happens to me I kneel down and pretend my wallet is my sock. I then suddenly rip off my shoe and throw it at them knocking them out. I've done this once and it worked great... There were a few differnces in the situation. The "attacker" was my brother and he was turned around watching tv when suddenly his head vicisouly got in my way. My shoe whapped him on the side of the head... throuogly pissing him off....

BUT his head did get out of my way. ;)
I'm suddenly reminded of the end of the first Austin Powers movie: "Who throws a shoe? Honestly!..."
:)

Bronson
10-05-2004, 01:25 AM
When this happens to me I kneel down and pretend my wallet is my sock. I then suddenly rip off my shoe and throw it at them knocking them out.

I once actually saw this in some MA magazine years ago. This was before I'd trained in anything and it still seemed like a load of dingo's kidneys.

Bronson

Aikidoiain
10-05-2004, 02:42 AM
Sean,

I think you'd have to ask a member of the World's Elite SAS about that, as they're preferred MA is Hapkido.

They may have to kill you though. :D


Iain. :ki: :D

Jorx
10-05-2004, 03:19 AM
Nowadays no special unit trains in "standard one martial art".

And about Louisiana and shooting car jackers... Anyone seen "Bowling for Columbine"?

Aikidoiain
10-05-2004, 04:29 AM
Hi Jorgen,

I haven't seen the film, but I have seen clips. It's by Micheal Moore isn't it? The clip I saw, was him walking into a shop (or was it a bank?! :eek: ) and buying a gun - I think it was a pump-action shotgun. He was shocked at just how easy it was to purchase a firearm. :eek:

I'll have to see the film. He's also written books too which are worth reading. I totally agree with his views. The public are never told what really goes on in the world. Everything is censored.

Have you ever read any of John Pilger's stuff? He divulges a lot of the Corruption that exists in US politics, and exposes cover-ups and downright lies - another interesting man. Definitely worth getting into him, for "the truth". Much of it I found quite sickening actually.

And yes, I hate George W bush. He's no more than a World terrorist who happens to wear a designer suit, rather than an Nazi uniform - in my opinion. Tony Blair is no angel either for that matter. We live in a corrupt society I'm afraid.

Iain. :ki: :)

deepsoup
10-05-2004, 05:10 AM
I think you'd have to ask a member of the World's Elite SAS about that, as they're preferred MA is Hapkido.
Rubbish.
Special forces military types dont have training time to waste on a lot of unarmed combat training, least of all silly, fiddly nerve techniques, shoe throwing, and jacket flapping.
They're far too busy training to survive in various harsh environments, to work effectively as a unit, and to use their weapons to the maximum effect.
If a man in a pub tells you he's in the SAS, you know he aint.
Similarly, if a MA instructor in a dojo tells you he trains the SAS, you know thats balls too. And it should ring alarm bells, because if an MA instructor bullshits you about one thing, how can you be sure he's not bullshitting about anything else?

Sean
x

Aikidoiain
10-05-2004, 08:51 AM
To Sean,

Fred Adams taught Hapkido to the SAS.

I don't know if he's still around, but the book I've got states that he founded Hapkido in this country. In 1985 he began teaching British Special Forces. As well as being a high-ranking Hapkido Sensei, he also held a 5th Dan rank in Karate back then.

Like I said, I don't know what he's doing now, but he had been awarded 16 black belts by that time.

I'll try and find him on the web. Perhaps he lied in his book? I don't know if it was you or someone else who pulled me up over Hapkido. Anyway, I'm just going by what it says about him in the book. I'll try and find out more for you.

Iain. :ki: :)

Aikidoiain
10-05-2004, 08:59 AM
Sean,

Just checked it out. Yes, he's still going. He's now the Hapkido Grandmaster 8th Dan and still holds Seminars.

Perhaps you should try to attend one, and ask him about his past training and teaching.

Iain. :ki: :D

Aikidoiain
10-05-2004, 10:38 AM
I see that Grand Master Fred Adams lives in the Norfolk area.

And Sean, do you really believe that an Elite Fighting unit are not skilled in unarmed combat? :crazy:

I think you need a reality check mate. :)

Iain. :ki: :D

deepsoup
10-05-2004, 01:17 PM
And Sean, do you really believe that an Elite Fighting unit are not skilled in unarmed combat? :crazy:
In the way you mean it, yes, thats exactly what I'm saying.
I believe that training time is precious for "elite" military types, and that they prioritise. It can't be a high priority to train extensively for unarmed combat, because a man who is unarmed in a combat situation is to all intents and purposes already dead.
Its a far more efficient use of limited training time to focus on preventing such a fubar situation from occurring in the first place.
Now when I say that these people aren't highly skilled in unarmed stuff, don't think I'm implying they're all a bunch of softy push-overs. As a result of their other training (and the extraordinarily harsh selection procedures), we're talking about people here with a degree of physical toughness,agression and motivation that is frankly beyond what most of us can imagine.
Highly skilled and highly effective aren't the same thing.
Physical toughness, strength, aggression and the willingness to do horrible things to another human being (that last being a *much* rarer attribute than many of us think), do not constitute skill. Nevertheless, they're all attributes far more telling in a combat situation that the paltry amount of skill than can be learned in a few snatched hours. (Or indeed in decades of 'hobby' dojo training, however much we, who dabble in a bit of budo part time, might like to kid ourselves we're tough.)

I don't know anything about hapkido, or about Fred Adams. If he does indeed claim to teach hapkido to the SAS, then no, I don't believe him.
I think you need a reality check mate. :)
When you brought up this whole 'special forces' side issue to support your point, were you intending to imply that the SAS are trained to react to a knife attack by taking off their jacket and flapping it about?
Maybe we should both check our realities, eh?

Sean
x

Aikidoiain
10-05-2004, 04:17 PM
Come on Sean, you know I didn't imply that....don't be silly. :p

As for Grand Master Adams being a liar - I'd love to be a fly on the wall when you tell him that to his face!! Yowwza!! :crazy:

Take good care of yourself Sean.

Iain. :ki: :freaky:

senseimike
10-05-2004, 04:58 PM
And yes, I hate George W bush. He's no more than a World terrorist who happens to wear a designer suit, rather than an Nazi uniform - in my opinion. Tony Blair is no angel either for that matter. We live in a corrupt society I'm afraid.
Everyone is entitled to his or her own opinion. That being said, it is my opinion that a comment like this has no place in a post about throwing your jacket at someone trying to attack you with a knife.

willy_lee
10-05-2004, 05:44 PM
Regarding Elite military units and MA:

Sean is I think correct about elite units and hand-to-hand. I think that they are all pretty much tough fighters that you wouldn't want to meet in a dark alley, but the unit training time is mostly spent on shooting and tactics and all the rest -- hand to hand *technique* is not a big worry.

In general I think elite military units (e.g., SAS, SEALs, Delta, GSG-9) do not stick to any particular MA as an institutional thing. If you look in the ads in the back of MA mags, you'll see 15-20 people that claim to teach their MA to the SEALs or SAS. A lot of these units have a deal of leeway as to training options, so they'll bring someone in for a couple weeks and train a particular unit of SEALs or whatever. Then that trainer gets to put on his resume, "Trained HTH to the SEALs!" or maybe less honestly, "This MA is the one used by the SEALs!" -- somehow the "the" sneaks in there.

So what I'm saying is that it's quite possible that Mr. Adams trained some SAS troopers in Hapkido. It's pretty unlikely that all SAS train in Hapkido, or that the official SAS MA is Hapkido, or anything like that.

=wl

Aikidoiain
10-05-2004, 08:28 PM
To Mike Taylor,

I was led astray by a post by Jorgen, who was talking about Mike Moore's film.

And Willy - a quote from Fred Adams book:-

"A year later (1985) he obtained his 5th Dan in Karate and was appointed advisor and instructor to the British Special Forces."

So, you're probably correct that he maybe held a short course or something, rather than a full-time post. Let's hope that's cleared up now.

Incidentally, he was trained in MA under a Korean Master of Moo Duk Kwan in 1968. Prior to that he spent time in the Military. He began MA aged 7. Just some trivia.

Sorry. :sorry:

Iain. :ki: :D

Shane Mokry
10-06-2004, 08:43 PM
Jorgen,

What does defending yourself from getting shot in the head for your car have to do with a propoganda fear film exploiting the victims of a couple of misguided thugs?
The law worked....no more car jackings...

Please clarify.

Shane

P.S. I have seen the so called "documentary". I'll not comment so that I can retain some decency. I watched it so that I could study the enemy!
I have to admit, there is blood running in the streets of Louisiana...Deer season just opened up!

Shane Mokry
10-06-2004, 09:21 PM
Iain,

Don't trust what you see from Michael Moore either. His version is quite twisted. Ask yourself this question. If the majority of Americans really thought that guns were the root of all our violence don't you think we would have banned them all by now? I live with guns. I have never shot anyone. I don't plan to either. But like I said before, I try not to leave any openings. Also, I looked up the statistics of shootings by licensed handgun carriers in Louisiana. There have been only five shootings out of 18,758 permits issued. 4 were admittedly illegal use in altercations. 1 was a legitimate defense.
In my opinion, we are all safer here being able to defend ourselves. "An armed society is a polite society".

Don't take my word for it either. Look it up here...
www.lsp.org
Choose the concealed handgun permit section and read the statistics.

Shane

son mai
10-06-2004, 09:44 PM
Hello,

I'm an ex-pat living in Japan. Has the US changed so much since I was there? Are people really getting shot in their CARS? Wow, I'm soooo glad I'm not there any more. How would anyone handle something like that? Say you're behind a car at a stop light and by some miracle you see him coming?

I'm interested in some ideas.

Bronson
10-06-2004, 09:54 PM
Don't trust what you see from Michael Moore either. His version is quite twisted.

I found this an interesting perspective (http://www.hardylaw.net/Truth_About_Bowling.html) on Mr. Moore's film.

Bronson

Shane Mokry
10-06-2004, 10:09 PM
Thanks Bronson,
I don't trust anything in the media anymore as it is. I never did like Michael Moore...
Shane

Shane Mokry
10-06-2004, 10:23 PM
Son,

I didn't mean to make it sound like people are running around killing one another all the time. But criminals are getting more and more "creative". Believe it or not some of our violent crime has begun to diminish now that the criminals know citizens are carrying concealed handguns. They were in fact running up and shooting the driver in the head, dragging them out and driving away in their cars. If I remember correctly most of the car jackings were happening in New Orleans, LA.

Anyway, that is how this conversation got started. It got so bad in Louisiana that the state encouraged everyone to defend themselves and passed the right to carry law. You can get a permit to carry a concealed handgun with the proper training and testing. People were encouraged to defend themselves (by lethal force if necessary) if they were in fear of being carjacked by someone approaching their car. It worked. The carjackings have all but stopped. I live here and haven't heard of any in years. Although, I never heard of anyone actually shooting a suspected car jacker either. I think the laws have acted as a deterrent.

Shane

Bronson
10-06-2004, 10:32 PM
I think the laws have acted as a deterrent.

Seems to me that it was illegal to carjack before the right to carry law was inacted....that didn't deter the carjackers.

Hmmm, I think it's the greater possibility of being shot that's the deterrent ;)

Bronson

Paul.H
10-07-2004, 02:09 AM
Hi All,
Interesting thread, of interest I have a demonstration video (Australian based demonstration video - I believe from Joe Thambu of Yoshinkan Aikido, but don't quote me till I check) which shows a female using a head scarfe/veil to trap/wrap the opponents hand and then execute various throws/pins. The techniques certainly looked effective enough. They were your normal everyday techniques just that she had a scarfe in her hand (as you'd expect the basics remain the same whether bokken, empty handed or with 'scarfe').

I also have an interest in the Special Forces (SAS in particular) and to the best of my knowlegde they do not study one particular martial art however to suggest they place little or less importance in hand to hand combat would be false. They place a great deal of importance on this for good reason - snatch and grab operations, has been captured and need to escape/disarm guard and use his gun etc, controlling hostages in a rescue situation. They tend to favour techniques that use speed, surprise and aggression (not to give the enemy a chance).

Also have to laugh at the Mike Moore editing Bowling for Columbine to suit his view, - I don't doubt he did do this however our leaders and news services etc. have been doing this for I don't know how long and they seem happy to pass this off (to us) as 'FACT'. They (polictical leaders) even employ people to do this for them!!
(Hang on, now I think about it I'm not laughing, I'm worried).

Cheers from the sunburnt land
Paul

deepsoup
10-07-2004, 05:06 AM
People were encouraged to defend themselves (by lethal force if necessary) if they were in fear of being carjacked by someone approaching their car.

I don't think Moore's film was about guns as much as it was about fear in the end. He said it himself, when he discovered that Canadians loves their guns every bit as much as Americans do, and yet they shoot each other in vastly lower numbers. The difference, Americans are living in fear in a way that Canadians aren't.
Man, I can smell the fear from all the way across the Atlantic. As a nation, you guys are terrified of just about everything (and you were, well before September 2001, so don't be saying that is the reason why).
Thing is, you don't make good decisions when you're scared. You bluff, you bluster and you throw your weight around.
(And you elect stupid, corrupt, chimp-faced liars to be President. -oops, sorry, that just slipped out there.)
I really wish you'd take a few collective deep breaths, try to stop your knees knocking, get a hold of yourselves. Start by ignoring anything written or broadcast by Rupert Murdoch, you know he just likes to frighten you, he gets some kind of perverse pleasure out of it.
[/troll]

Oh, and another time, would you mind starting a new thread on gun control rather than hijacking (car jacking, thread jacking, whatever) an existing one. As soon as you mention it, whatever was in the thread before is dead. This one was pretty much dead anyway, but y'know, in the future maybe.

Sean
x

Shane Mokry
10-07-2004, 08:26 AM
Sean,

Tell us how you really feel. It sounds to me like severe jealousy.

It's interesting to talk to people from other coutries and get their expert opinion on what our problems are. If I recall the UK has one of the highest violent crime rates in the world because your government won't even allow you do defend yourselves with anything more dangerous than a cotton ball. That's what I've read about your country. Tell me, is it true? Do you think the information you are getting over there is less slanted than the information I have. You've got to be kidding.

Second, there are people that are scared all over the world. I'm not one of them. When you talk about being scared as a nation... well what I see is that most regular people are willing to stand up and fight for what they believe in...for their freedom. It worked against your country. If my memory serves me we won that one. Now your government will send you to jail for defending yourselves. I'd be pretty scared to live there too...as an individual. What is that I smell?

My intention was not to change this thread. It was to offer sound advice against a knife attack. I did... only Iain can't get firearms either. It began with a trick using a second wallet to give to a robber. Read the rest of the thread.

Who is Rupert Murdoch?

Maybe I should start another thread on gun control. Not much to discuss. In my neck of the woods gun control means hitting what you aim at!

Shane

Shane Mokry
10-07-2004, 09:13 AM
Sean,

There is also a thread on anti-Americanism you might want to check out.

Shane

Aikidoiain
10-07-2004, 09:23 AM
Shane,

I think it's only a matter of time before the UK arms the Police with guns. I feel it's inevitable. At the moment they do have special armed Police units, but with the way the crime rate is escalating with shootings, they're going to have to respond.

Of course, when this happens, the criminal community may also carry guns instead of knives. As for us, we'll simply be at more risk of being shot "by mistake" - not that I'm ever likely to be, since I hardly leave my flat.

There have already been cases in the UK of innocent members of the public being shot and killed by these armed Police units. It's just going to get worse.

I strongly dislike this country anyway for many reasons, but I feel once the Police are armed I'll have to do something pretty drastic to escape this life.

Iain. :ki: :(

Shane Mokry
10-07-2004, 09:49 AM
Jesus man,
I thought your police already had guns. How do they do their job? How can they protect the public from guns without guns?

This is part of why we are allowed to own guns here. Not to mention our constitution ensures the right to keep and bear arms. It has proved most difficult to change that part of the constitution. Some are trying...Michael Moore. Most of our local and state governments recognize that the police can't be everywhere all the time. We have to be able to defend ourselves. And I believe you should be able to defend yourself too. As far as not leaving you flat...if they want something you've got they'll probably come in and get it.

I'm sorry you have to deal with all of that kind of stuff. Have you ever considered moving to the U.S.? Don't get me wrong, there are alot of things I don't like about my country but I am still proud to be an American.I think you would like it here...in the right state. Like I said we still have small rural towns that are very peaceful. Actually, I would bet that most of America is small town America. You just never see those aspects in the news because it's not as sensational as what goes on in our big cities.

Shane

Aikidoiain
10-07-2004, 10:05 AM
Shane,

If I could move (remember I can't even travel by bus!), it would be a Scandinavian country I'd go to rather than the States. The scenery over there is much like the Scottish Highlands, and I've met several people from those parts and I like their attitude to life. I had a "nice" experience with a pretty blonde Finnish girl in my past ;) Plus, I like the jazz scene there too.

Of course, that's all fantasy due to my problems, but it's a nice dream.

Iain. :ki: :)

deepsoup
10-07-2004, 12:06 PM
Tell me, is it true? Do you think the information you are getting over there is less slanted than the information I have. You've got to be kidding.
There's information available, to a lesser or greater degree, to all of us, but there's none so blind as those who wont see.
But for what its worth, yes, I do, not that having a less partisan news networks than those in the USA is a huge achievement. For all her faults, dear old Auntie Beeb is one of the few things we Brits can still be justifiably proud of. "Nation shall speak peace unto nation", and all that.

When you talk about being scared as a nation... well what I see is that most regular people are willing to stand up and fight for what they believe in...for their freedom.
Really? And what is freedom?
Freedom from pain? - healthcare isn't as easy to come by as you'd expect for a big chunk of the people in the richest country in the world.
Freedom from poverty? - dude, have you even noticed what is happening to your economy?
Hey, don't worry about it, as long as you can shoot anyone who frightens you by walking towards your car, everythings ok.
It worked against your country. If my memory serves me we won that one.
True, thats one more thing you owe the French. Shame on you for being so ungrateful lately.

All this bluster doesn't refute my idea that you're scared y'know, it confirms it. I don't mean you personally, no need to thump that manly chest, but as a national characteristic 'frightened' has just pipped 'overweight' and 'litigious' to the number 1 spot.
Who is Rupert Murdoch?
One of a handful of individuals who can abridge the freedom of the press all he wants, he owns the press. The first amendment is no good if you let one guy own the whole press, dammit. I thought you Americans believed in the Constitution. (I can't believe all those "willing to fight for their freedom" patriotic people are happy to just watch some Australian billionaire wipe his arse on it.)
[/troll][/fish in a barrel]

Sean
x

Shane Mokry
10-07-2004, 02:44 PM
Sean,

Sounds to me like you are scared to take responsibility for your own life and choices. Freedom scares lots of people because they may not have the juice to make it. I do. And if i don't, I sure don't expect the government to take care of me. As soon as you rely on the government to take care of you, they can control you because your livelyhood depends on their handouts. The less the government interferes with the goings on in this nation the better. I don't need handouts, and have good health care coverage. Perks of working in the OILFIELD I guess. That's freedom. I should have known you wouldn't understand having never had it. Freedom includes all areas of your life...including your freedom to fail. This government doesn't hold anyone back. They do however have more control over people and lives than they should. Tell me, have you had trouble getting medical treatment in the US?

As far as shooting anyone who walks by your car... I would never advocate doing that unless you were really, really scared and they need killing. But when someone kicks your front door in and starts shooting you can say night night. I on the other hand I will be able, and willing to defend myself. Again...I smell fear. What are you afraid of? There is a very big difference having power and using power...or abusing power for that matter. Again...With freedom comes responsibility, but I can't expect you to understand that. Are you related to Michael Moore?

The French!!!! If you guys hadn't pissed them off they wouldn't have helped us in the first place.

The only thing the American people are afraid of is our government. The things you talk about are all US government related. Most Americans, intelligent ones, are very suspicious of our government.There has always been a constant struggle between Americans and their government. We are supposed to have the power while the government always tries to get more. That's the way of things. We do have our problems over here. I do think that the US will soon find itself alone in the world if we stay on this path. Which is fine. I wonder though, why is it that everyone from other countries knows so much about us and we hardly hear anything about you....
Proof positive that the world looks to the greatest country on earth for leadership!

As far as me being scared personally, well I wouldn't beat my manly chest...I might tug on my nipple rings every now and then. Do not confuse fear with freedom and confidence. Like I said, you can't know unless you've been there. And you haven't. I still don't understand what you think we, as a people, are afraid of.

I'm definitely sure of one thing. You could come and help campaign for John Kerry. He would be delighted to have someone with your intellect working for him. You could probably get a good health care plan too! At least you could convince people that you really believe what you say. Wrong or not.

Finally, it's not that bad over here. Yeah there's alot of corruption. Yeah there is alot of crime. There are also the some of the most brilliant people in the world. And some of the strongest and bravest. I'm proud to be a part of it! I make a good living because I work. I spend 6 months a year away from my family to bring home the bacon. If you want work it is out there. You seem to be trapped in that train of thought that someone is keeping Americans from having jobs and health care. You're right! The government has spoiled these people into living off my tax dollars. Now you can't give them a job! They don't want to work...and worse, the government pays them more the more children they have.If you haven't figured it out yet that's how they gain more and more control over the people of this nation. And you seem to want to help them! That is not the way to liberate people. Oh yes, we have much bigger problems than being seen as bullies around the world.

Oh, by the way, The cost of health care is DIRECTLY related to frivilous lawsuits against doctors and any one else big enough sue. Doctors' liability insurance premiums are outrageous. Medical insurance cost is ridiculous because health care costs are ridiculous because doctors have to pass on the cost. Duh! This entire cycle began when people decided that everyone else should be liable for someone elses stupidity. nobody is responsible for anything that happens to them. Everyone point left! So, again my friend, freedom has been broken down by the lack of responsibility.

I tell you what, why don't you come and see for yourself. You can stay with me. We can train together and I'll even take you hunting. I'll show you first hand where I get my perceptions. Maybe we can become friends and learn a thing or two from one another.

Shane

Aikidoiain
10-07-2004, 03:17 PM
I think my original post was something to do with a jacket?! How on Earth has it turned into a political debate?

Has anyone else any other interesting methods of using unorthodox methods to deal with an attacker?

Many years ago now, one of my musician friends (a 2nd Dan in Ju-jitsu - I think), showed me how to disable an attacker with a pen. In fact he went on to suggest that you should improvise (just like in music) and use whatever is around you as a weapon or a shield.

Iain. :ki: :D

Kevin Leavitt
10-07-2004, 03:17 PM
Unlike some professions (if you call being a martial arts instructor a profession)...the creditials of teachers are unregulated in the U.S. So pretty much you can say whatever you want.

Usually the dudes that are advertising "trained special forces" "invented a new system that is used by the SEALs" are marketing to a certain sect of the public. Without knowing them I would not judge their ability or skills, but once they list this type of stuff rather than some other things I think they should hold as a priority, I usually turn the other way since it is not my cup of tea.

As stated, hand-to-hand is typically given a lower priority than other areas of training since it is not something that is done much if it can be helped. In regular combat units it is used to build warrior ethos and fighting spirit as well as increase martial skill. We are seeing more of it in the U.S Army now that we are dealing more and more with close quarters fighting with severely restricted rules of engagement in civil situations.

I am just starting to work with some platoon sergeants in my unit to develop a senario/situational based exercise to take down bad guys effectively without the use of lethal force. It is not a martial art though or a system, it is a narrow focused event designed to work within a certain set of conditions that guys most likely will face in a civil-military environment.

I guess once I do that I can hang up my shingle as well and advertise as the inventor of a system used by elite army units!

To eaches own!

Kevin Leavitt
10-07-2004, 03:23 PM
Iain,

yea I agree to use whatever is around you.

I was listening to the guy a few years back in my dojo come up with this senario dealing with a guy robbing a 7-11 with a knife and was prodding me for my comments about what aikido technique would be most effective.

I clarified to make sure I understood that in this senario I was actually in a 7-11 and what Aisle I was on. I then proceed to tell him I would pick up the cans on the shelf and throw them at him, then I'd rip off the shelf and proceed to beat the crap out of him with the shelf!

Oh yea, and I would check my posture to make sure I had a good kamai!

It is easy to forget the many things in our environment that can be used to our advantage.

Shane Mokry
10-07-2004, 06:26 PM
Sorry Iain, I get riled up.

I still think you should get a cane.

Shane

deepsoup
10-07-2004, 08:47 PM
The less the government interferes with the goings on in this nation the better.This is deeply weird. Its like saying you don't want school teachers to interfere in your kids education.
A nation, by definition, has borders and laws, and a government, by definition, passes and enforces laws and protects borders. If you don't have a government, you ain't got a nation.
I sort of get where you're coming from though, what really baffles me is why you're so happy to let the big corporations have the power you'd never trust the government to have. The power is still there when you privatise and deregulate stuff, its just in the hands of people you don't even get to pretend represent you.
Tell me, have you had trouble getting medical treatment in the US? Nope, but then I've never needed medical treatment in the US.
How about you? You're covered, you work in the oil industry, thats grand. Family covered? Friends? Neighbours? Babysitter? The guys you train with?
As far as shooting anyone who walks by your car... I would never advocate doing that unless you were really, really scared and they need killing.Wow, theres the fear, right there! I can't imagine how scary a guy has to look before he needs killing. I guess you don't have the freedom to look really scary and walk by someone's car then. The freedom to ask someone directions if you happen to look scary is probably curtailed a bit too, eh?
But when someone kicks your front door in and starts shooting you can say night night. I on the other hand I will be able, and willing to defend myself. Again...I smell fear. Again, the fear is all yours. I've lived in some pretty rough neighbourhoods, and its never even crossed my mind that someone might kick in the door and come in shooting. Its something thats incredibly unlikely to happen to me, its incredibly unlikely to happen to most Americans too.
But unlike me, millions of Americans are keeping guns in the house in case it does happen - and the guns won't help unless they're loaded, accessible and ready to go. Because of that, husbands and wives are killing each other, in anger and by accident, every day. Americans are killing their neighbours, their friends and their kids, in anger or by accident, every day. Best yet, American children, little kids, shoot and kill each other every day, and they're just playing, they've seen it on the TV.
So, to get it straight. You're scared that someone will kick in your front door and come in shooting, it'll probably never happen, but you're willing (not you personally, you get it, I mean "you the freedom loving, gun toting American public") to put up with all that death and misery anyway "just in case".
I met a man once who had a phobia that there'd be an earthquake and his ceiling would fall down, so he always wore a crash helmet around the house. He knew it was silly, it was just this irrational fear that he had. Fear that he had, I said fear..
The only thing the American people are afraid of is our government. No, I don't get that. I've been in a few of these discussions, and it always comes across to me that the main thing the American people are afraid of is other American people. Other American people with guns, thats why you have to have a bigger gun than the other guy.
The things you talk about are all US government related. Most Americans, intelligent ones, are very suspicious of our government. With good reason, but unless it comes down to a bloody revolution and civil war, your patriotic freedom loving people can't use their guns against their own government and by then your lives are already ruined. So before it comes to that, how about using some of those other freedoms to ask your leaders about the enemies they're making on your behalf all over the planet. Ask the Bush family about their friends the Bin Laden family, and why dozens of them were allowed to quietly leave the country on the 12th, 13th and 14th of September 2001 without even being questioned and yet there are American citizens among the hundreds of people from around the world locked up indefinitely in Camp Delta, maybe even being tortured in Camp Echo, with no phone call, no lawyer, no Geneva Convention. You patriots want to defend a few constitutional rights, or what?
I wonder though, why is it that everyone from other countries knows so much about us and we hardly hear anything about you....
Proof positive that the world looks to the greatest country on earth for leadership! I can clear that up for you right now, its not about leadership. The USA is now the world's only military superpower, and its commander in chief is a dangerous, irresponsible idiot.
Now if you were in a room full of people, and the guy with the biggest gun was twitching, sweating, playing with a big bag of grenades and talking to himself about how he'll show them, yeah he'll fix em up, they TRIED TO KILL MY DADDY!!! (pant, pant, thousand yard stare) Don't you think everybody in the room would be watching him real closely? Not looking for leadership exactly though, eh?
As for the other bit, Americans don't hear that much about the rest of the world because you aint listening. That and, since you've been letting Nike and Coke run the education system, you're younger generations aren't even sure where the world is any more.
I'm definitely sure of one thing. You could come and help campaign for John Kerry. He would be delighted to have someone with your intellect working for him. You could probably get a good health care plan too! At least you could convince people that you really believe what you say. Wrong or not. Thankyou. I'd rather just campaign for Bush to not be president. I guess that means Kerry, though its a pretty crappy sort of democracy when you just choose the bad president instead of the terrible one. If I got to be on the Supreme Court and choose who's president (like they did in 2000), I'd probably pick Nader. That probably doesn't surprise you one bit.
Finally, it's not that bad over here... There are also the some of the most brilliant people in the world. And some of the strongest and bravest. I'm proud to be a part of it!... The government has spoiled these people into living off my tax dollars. Now you can't give them a job! ..No argument from me on the first part, there are still some Americans who're inspiring to us all, even the odd politician. But that other thing, thats just come straight off some crappy talk show on a Clear Channel radio station, hasn't it, c'mon. And even if it was true, every word of it, have you any idea how much "shock and awe" cost? You're worried about a few measly welfare payments when you could have bought each and every one of these apocryphal people a shiny new Mercedes with half the tax dollars that went into bombing the shit out of Baghdad.
Oh, by the way, The cost of health care is DIRECTLY related to frivilous lawsuits against doctors and any one else big enough sue. Doctors' liability insurance premiums are outrageous. Medical insurance cost is ridiculous because health care costs are ridiculous because doctors have to pass on the cost. Duh! This entire cycle began when people decided that everyone else should be liable for someone elses stupidity. nobody is responsible for anything that happens to them. Everyone point left! So, again my friend, freedom has been broken down by the lack of responsibility. I agree completely with every word of this paragraph. Bet you didn't expect that! :)
I tell you what, why don't you come and see for yourself. You can stay with me. We can train together and I'll even take you hunting. I'll show you first hand where I get my perceptions. Maybe we can become friends and learn a thing or two from one another. Thats a generous offer, Shane, I really do appreciate it. I have my hands quite full right here though, for the time being, but who knows, maybe some day. I really didn't expect that at all, I guess I've learnt something from you right there.

Good grief, look at the length of this post, sorry about that, I think thats me more or less done on the subject. Bin fun though.

Sean
x

deepsoup
10-07-2004, 08:54 PM
I guess once I do that I can hang up my shingle as well and advertise as the inventor of a system used by elite army units!
If and when you hang up that sign, it'll be the first time I've ever believed it was true. (And I bet you'll be the first to actually specify exactly which army units and when.)

Sean
x

Shane Mokry
10-07-2004, 09:25 PM
Thanks for the reply Sean. I actually expected you to agree with everything I said. Wishful thinking I guess. I still think I'm right but you do have some very valid points. I know I don't agree with most of it but you have to remember Louisiana itself is has a culture all its own. I'm sure there are people from the US reading this post that think I'm a psycho. Probably most of them. Just for the record, that little bit about needing killing is a JOKE. You never heard the joke that a valid defense for 1st degree murder in Louisiana is " He needed killing"?

And I meant I'd take you "deer hunting" not people hunting. Also, People DO kick in front doors and hold families at gunpoint while they steal all their stuff. These are very real crimes. I'm not creative enough to make this stuff up. My brothers in law live in Memphis , Tennessee and they see it all the time on the local news. (Tennessee is a right to carry state also)

I mostly think you are right about starting a new thread. This is inappropriate. I'm going to search for one on gun contol and if I can't find one I'll start another one.

See you there.

Shane

P.S. I still think Iain should get a walking cane.

deepsoup
10-08-2004, 06:16 AM
Just for the record, that little bit about needing killing is a JOKE. You never heard the joke that a valid defense for 1st degree murder in Louisiana is " He needed killing"?
Ah, I missed the joke, sorry. No, I never heard that before, we don't get a lot of Louisiana humour around here. I like it though, I bet theres a grain of truth at the middle of it too.
And I meant I'd take you "deer hunting" not people hunting. Yeah, I did realise that, I don't think you're a total psychopath. :)
Also, People DO kick in front doors and hold families at gunpoint while they steal all their stuff. These are very real crimes. I'm not creative enough to make this stuff up. My brothers in law live in Memphis , Tennessee and they see it all the time on the local news. (Tennessee is a right to carry state also)
I bet the local news over-exaggerates how often those crimes happen though, but I believe you that they happen. But if that is what justifies the right to carry thing, you've got a circular argument, because the right to carry, and the right to kill a robber in your home, no questions asked, is what created that MO in the first place.

Where I live law abiding folks don't generally have guns, we've covered that, some criminals do, but its *extremely* rare for anyone who breaks into a house to steal stuff to be armed. It is legal for me to defend myself or my family, despite what you think, but only if I or my family are threatened - I can't kill the guy to protect my TV set. If I'm able, its also perfectly legal for me to restrain the guy with 'reasonable force' while I wait for the cops.

So, if someone breaks into my house to steal the TV, he'll try to do it without me noticing. If I catch him at it, he'll pretty much always flee, if he's able. Unless he's cornered, he's got nothing to gain by attacking me or mine and everything to lose. Running away guarantees his survival and gives him a chance to escape.

If someone breaks into your house, he knows theres a good chance you're going to be armed. He also knows you'll be ready, willing and able to shoot him dead if you can, and he's going to be armed too. If you catch him at it, he's a dead man unless he can kill you first, he can't run away because he knows you'll shoot him dead the second he turns his back. Breaking down the door and holding a family at gunpoint probably gives him a better chance of survival that trying to sneak in and out unnoticed.

Now these two perps, yours and mine are the same guy. They're both some scumbag who just wants to steal whats yours or mine, they're both quite likely a drug addict looking to get enough cash together to score a few more rocks, and neither one of them gives a fig about anyone but himself. The only real difference is the law, and the guns.
I mostly think you are right about starting a new thread. This is inappropriate. I'm going to search for one on gun contol and if I can't find one I'll start another one.
See you there.
Nah, don't worry about it on my account, I think I'm done. I've been in these discussions before and it gets pretty boring saying the same old stuff over and over again. Its not like anyone actually changed their mind because of a thread like this anyway.
Thanks for turning the thread around though, ended up much more interesting than just another flame war.
See you somewhere else.

Sean
x

Aikidoiain
10-08-2004, 05:58 PM
To Shane,

I'd feel too uncomfortable going out with a cane, as you suggested, as it would draw more attention to myself - which I don't want.

The cane is now a favourite weapon in certain MA styles though. I recall my Hapkido instructor showing us some cane techniques, but I can't remember what they were!

Thanks anyway,
Iain. :ki: :)

Kevin Leavitt
10-08-2004, 06:26 PM
Back to your original question, I don't think there are too many ways to adequately prepare for a knife senario. I try to avoid areas where I would be mugged. Coat would be better than not having a coat. I have heard of chains being used, but who wants to carry one around. You could always carry a gun I guess?? I would probably just give up my wallet and then try and extract myself as best I could.

I think it is a sad state of affairs to live in a self imposed world of fear where you feel it necessary to always worry about what might happen to you. Might as well be dead IMHO if you can't enjoy the world around you cause you constantly worry about being mugged or something. Personally I would move out of an area that I felt like that, unless I had a higher purpose for being there.

Aikidoiain
10-08-2004, 07:00 PM
Kevin,

I've already had to deal with knife attacks since moving to Glasgow, but I don't fear being mugged. I simply want to move out of the city to a country location because I hate city life in general.

The reason I moved here was for drumming work, but I am now retired, so I no longer need or wish to stay here. My MH problems however, make it impossible for me to travel - so I'm stuck.

I don't own a car, but if I did, I would pack up and leave immediately! Because I am now registered as "disabled", I am fighting the "system" to get Motability car. That's the only hope I have of escaping this place. I used to love Glasgow when I first moved here, but I was a different person back then - now I just want peace and quiet.

There is nothing tying me to the city - other than the restrictions of my health problems. After 30 years in the music biz, I've suddenly lost most of my friends - who were all musicians.


Iain. :ki: :)

George S. Ledyard
10-09-2004, 03:44 AM
In the way you mean it, yes, thats exactly what I'm saying.
I believe that training time is precious for "elite" military types, and that they prioritise.
I am sure that this is about the same as with American Special Forces personnel. You will find that most of them have some ability to fight empty hand but it's usually skills that thay acquired on their own. My friend John Holschen(sp?) who is in Iraq right now as a civilian contractor was the training seargent for the SF guys at Fort Lewis before he retired. He had a solid Daito Ryu background as well as having done some Aikido. He also had done some grappling and striking arts but I don't remember the details.

Often the reason you find these guys trained in martial arts is simply that they are the types of folks who are motivated to train even when they don't have to. They are apt to do martial arts because it's just another way to test themselves and make them better at their jobs.

Special Forces units will often take advantage of what hey have handy. Frank Cucci was a SEAL team memeber so they took advantage of the fact that he was a student of Jeet Kun Do under Dan Inosanto and had him do some training for the group. A different team would not necessarily have done the same training.

The assumption for these guys is that they are armed to the teeth with firearms and empty hand fighting would be the least likely scenareio they might encounter. So there is little emphasis placed on these skills other than as conditioning and as a good way to develop strong intention.

Kevin Leavitt
10-13-2004, 12:04 PM
accurate description George! This has been my experience.

Kevin Leavitt
10-13-2004, 12:07 PM
Iain, sorry it took me several days to post back to you. My comments are not directed at you directly. To clairfy, which I did a poor job. Everyone has their circumstances and reasons they live where they live. It is not for me to judge them or their situation.

I meant to say that regardless of the situation, it is shame to have to live your life in fear...period. I hope through aikido and other experiences you have that you can learn methods and ways to deal with your fears and minimize your danger. IMHO, part of the path to peace and happiness is the elimination of fear.

Aikidoiain
10-13-2004, 05:38 PM
Thanks for that Kevin.

I'm at a pretty low ebb at the moment - being stuck indoors all day really drives you mad.

As if that weren't bad enough, I also suffer from Chronic Migraine attacks which can last for up to five days. I had one recently and it just saps the life right out of you. I do take medication, but really there is no known cure for this condition. However, in my case I always put it down to stress. Which brings me right back to my MH problems. It's a vicious circle.

I couldn't attend Aikido tonight, simply because I still haven't recovered from the last attack.

On a more positive note, I have been offering some advice to "cricketman" regarding a book he's writing. He seems to like what I've suggested so far.


Iain. :ki: :)

Aikidoiain
10-17-2004, 01:37 AM
To All,

I've just discovered that a gentleman called Grandmaster Professor Gunta Bauer teaches his "Close Quarter Combat System" to the SAS and other Military Institutions.

Anyone heard of him?


Iain. :ki: :D

Huker
11-13-2004, 03:13 AM
Nevermind jackets. A good way to deal with a wallet-hunting knife-attacker is to just toss your wallet into the middle of the street. If he's dumb enough to go for it maybe the problem will solve itself!! :uch:

But seriously, I've heard of the jacket techniques before. They sound effective, provided you can get the jacket off. It is tough to say what a person can do.