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ecollander
09-27-2004, 12:19 PM
For the sake of argument here, let's just say this was an unavoidable situation.
You are attacked by a single aggressor and you successfully execute shihonage and have him subdued with no one getting injured. However, his buddies suddenly rush over to help him (by attacking you). What do you do?
I feel that you would have to eliminate the guy you already have subdued by either breaking a limb or a knockout strike to the head/neck -- if you just let him go to defend against the others he would likely resume his attack. Legally, where does this put you, seeing as you initially responded with appropriate measures but suddenly executed potentially lethal force (at least bone-breaking force).
I also feel that you would have to eliminate each new attacker quickly in order to face the next (wrist break, face/neck strike, something). What would you do to eliminate? Legally, what is appropriate force?
I come from a TKD background but am interested to know how Aikido would address this situation.
Thanks for your thoughts.
e

shihonage
09-27-2004, 12:35 PM
Maneuver your way as efficiently and quickly as possible between attackers using one-tick techniques such as randori's kokyunage, throw strikes when necessary, get away and run.

That's the Aikido theory, at least.

John Boswell
09-27-2004, 12:39 PM
First I'd say the likelihood of a "one punch knock out" is slim and none and isn't going to make your "uke"s buddies like you any better.

Second, releasing the guy is only an option IF you can run and get away from the on-coming attackers. ANY avoidence of a fight is better than perfect execution of a technique... especially if your opponent has back-up. ;)

Now then, you've pinned the guy, can't run and he has friends on the way. One option would be to pick your opponent back up, cut him over into Ikkyo and hold him there while using him as a barrier between you and the on-coming enemy. Maybe they are more reasonable? If not, cut him over and throw and let the Randori begin!

Next time... be a little more careful! Never start nuthin' you can't finish!! :D

Greg Jennings
09-27-2004, 01:10 PM
Been there and done that (there was only one friend). If you're not afraid for you life or someone else's, consider going fetal and yelling for help. It's probably going to be less hassle and expense to take a roughing up.

FWIW,

JAHsattva
09-27-2004, 01:16 PM
"use the one to strike the many"(sound familiar?)

i would do that, and then go away.

NagaBaba
09-27-2004, 01:28 PM
What do you do?
e
Run, Eric, run!!!!

stern9631
09-27-2004, 01:41 PM
Turning your back and running seems like such a bad idea. I understand that many times we will not win a fight, but you are assuming that you can run faster than your opponents and that they don't have a gun or another projectile weapon.
If you are caught you are subjecting yourself to the full brunt of an attack because your back is turned. I have been told that it is possible to run 40 feet in a circle. I guess you are in it until you win it or you are dead or unconscious.

I would really consider applying a break in order to "protect" the person from harm due to escalation.
That last line sounds like a bunch of crap, huh? I think that is how I really feel. **shrug**

ecollander
09-27-2004, 02:11 PM
[QUOTE=John Boswell]First I'd say the likelihood of a "one punch knock out" is slim and none and isn't going to make your "uke"s buddies like you any better.

In TKD we practiced many "one punch knockout" techniques -- not all of them were "knockouts", per se, but were debilitating enough to render the person harmless (some were easily fatal, and we were advised to never, ever, ever use them, so why we learned them I'll never know!).


["Maneuver your way as efficiently and quickly as possible between attackers using one-tick techniques such as randori's kokyunage, throw strikes when necessary, get away and run.
That's the Aikido theory, at least."]

I like this idea the best.

SeiserL
09-27-2004, 03:02 PM
IMHO, the first thing is to make a mental note to learn some better manners and get a sense of humor and humility in order not to get in this situation again.

I would never suggest "going to the ground" with an individual in a real fighting situation, because they ususaly do have friends and run in packs. Keep techqniues simple and direct. Get rid of one as soon as possible. Try to throw one into another. Breaking and hitting may be appropriate and necessary.

If you can locate the door, and parked your car facing the street, and have you keys ready, then it may be perfectly okay to exit as soon as possible.

When you get away, go back to that mental note about manners, humor, and humility.

Hagen Seibert
09-27-2004, 03:09 PM
what about yelling: "Get back or IŽll break his arm !"

kironin
09-27-2004, 03:11 PM
For the sake of argument here, let's just say this was an unavoidable situation.
You are attacked by a single aggressor and you successfully execute shihonage and have him subdued with no one getting injured. However, his buddies suddenly rush over to help him (by attacking you). What do you do?



If they were really his buddies, they would not be so far away that this scenario would happen. They would be right there backing him up.

so first, I would really have to question your behavior that led to him attacking without his buddies right there to back him up. That just seems a very unlikely premise unless you were just behaving like a total #ssh#le or totally easy meek target.

second there is no way in hell, I would give up my standing position to do a shihonage pin - that's for the dojo and very particular situations like a family gatering where your Uncle has had too much to drink. There is enough ways to modify the ending of shihonage to permit control with dropping to the ground.

If you are smart enough, you will be talking to him to try to diffuse the situation at this point and you won't appear to be hurting him so his buddies may hesitate. If they are not smart enough then you can possibly create an opening for escape when they rush of tossing him into their way.

The ending of this could go any number of ways good or bad for you depending on who they are and who you are, location, etc.
No matter how good you are you can't really control it no matter what martial arts fantasies you wish to dream up.

You can only control yourself and try to make unavoidable situations never happen.

don't be a tiger
(someone his buddies will look up to him for taking you on no matter the outcome)

don't be a mouse (someone he will see as a sure thing - easy target)

Just be a goat.
:D
(not a challenge - he could lose status with his buddies if you beat him and not an easy target - you calmness and movement make him hesitate)

jester
09-27-2004, 03:18 PM
You can always control the person with shihonage while you and him are still standing. he will follow wherever you go if you lock it correctly. While he's screaming in pain, you can use him as a shield until you find a way to escape.

jester
09-27-2004, 03:20 PM
Craig, good idea. You must have posted while I was writing my response!

ecollander
09-27-2004, 03:40 PM
IMHO, the first thing is to make a mental note to learn some better manners and get a sense of humor and humility in order not to get in this situation again.

I would never suggest "going to the ground" with an individual in a real fighting situation, because they ususaly do have friends and run in packs. Keep techqniues simple and direct. Get rid of one as soon as possible. Try to throw one into another. Breaking and hitting may be appropriate and necessary.

If you can locate the door, and parked your car facing the street, and have you keys ready, then it may be perfectly okay to exit as soon as possible.

When you get away, go back to that mental note about manners, humor, and humility.

This is purely a hypothetical situation (at least it has never happened to me). I am only trying to get an idea of the "mentality of Aikido" and techniques to use when it comes to eliminating threats.
Personally, I would do everything it takes to avoid a violent confrontation; that is why Aikido appeals to me.
Eric

p00kiethebear
09-27-2004, 04:45 PM
Atemi Atemi Atemi....

3 or 4 broken noses can be very discouraging.

Though they have communicated their intentions by charging at you to attack, you should communicate yours as well. This will probably help to minimize court problems.

If they keep attacking, keep breaking things until they stop. Inform them that you're going to do so.

Once you've dispatched them, or they have left, it's time to leave the area immediately as we discussed in another thread that recently came up.

maikerus
09-27-2004, 05:38 PM
Hypothetically, I don't really think I'm good enough not to hurt/break the first guy anyway.

What I mean is if I can't find a way to run away and then I manage to keep my focus and actually do a technique, don't you think a shihonage/irimi nage/hiji shime or whatever will already have injured the first guy before his friends come along?

I think about how when we train we are fairly gentle until we know that uke can "take" the technique. Add that to my adrenalin fight or flight response and I don't know if I have the control to "subdue" someone successfully.

There's also skill involved in being uke and my guess/hope would be that the person attacking wouldn't be an aikidoka.

Any thoughts?

--Michael

stuartjvnorton
09-27-2004, 07:00 PM
what about yelling: "Get back or IŽll break his arm !"

Similar thoughts here.

If there was nowhere to run, I'd get him up off the ground in a restraint & use him as a partial shield, partial threat against the others.
Presumably his "mates" will be at least a little concerned about his future health.

Chris Birke
09-28-2004, 01:10 AM
This is precisely what Aikido is uniquely suited for in my opinion. Use it to stay safe and get away by keeping yourself from being taken down, tied up, or cornered.

That is, unless you one punch knockout them. If do this technique right, there can be no defend. That's tkd though, not aikido.

Anat Amitay
09-28-2004, 05:31 AM
Hi Eric,
I guess all the answers above have given you many options of acting. As for me, I'm not quite advaced to give you hypothetical advice on aikido attacks.
As for what comes after:
Let's say you got out of the situation, maybe a bit battered too, but you broke one guys arm and anothers nose...
Each country has it's own rules and laws, but my advice:
Be quiet about knowing MA's. The reason? simple-
Let's say this comes to court, it would be harder for them to acuse you if you only claim for self defence, but in some countries, knowing MA's from certain levels is considered having a weapon- this changes the whole picture. Now they might not know that fact, but if they have a lawer- he will.
If you are asked when questioned by law inforcers if you know MA's- don't lie, but don't let those who don't need to know have an advatage on you. (in other word- don't brag because it can bomerang back at you).
I know someone who was an policeman and knew TKD and I give you this advice by his stories and experience.
In any way- I hope you never have to be in such a situation at all, and just get to enjoy Aikido!
Cheers,
Anat

Aikidoiain
09-28-2004, 07:16 AM
All the above should help. Using the attacker as a "shield" is good, as is threatening to break his arm or even kill him - just to frighten them off, of course.

I was in a similar position many years ago, but found that my Aikido alone was not good enough to deal with them all, so I had to use other styles - such as Karate, Aiki-Jujitsu and Hapkido so I could indeed " kick and punch my way out". I eventually only had to deal with a few once they saw that I was a good "streetfighter", who meant business, and the rest backed off, and I left the scene carefully watching my back.

At that time I felt I had no choice but to apply "significant force". Perhaps if my Aikido was better, I would simply have kept moving and dealt with one attacker at a time, or thrown people into each other - but that's hypothetical now. The main thing is, I escaped unharmed.

I was a different person back then though.

Take care,
Iain. :ki: :)

JAHsattva
09-28-2004, 11:02 AM
has anyone trianed with multiple uke on the mats?

my sensei has nage stand in the middle of a circle of 4 or 5 uke.

this is what has taught me not to rely on technique.,but to be intuitive and quite literally make it up as you go.

it usually involves nage doing the arm bar to the first uke and pushing his body into the uke#2,then immediately dealing with the next uke and so on.

"he who hesitates , meditates in a horizontal position."------got that from some movie,cant remember the title.

Aikidoiain
09-28-2004, 11:16 AM
To Jason,

The movie could be "The Rising Sun", with Sean Connery and Wesley Snipes - perhaps?

Iain.

William Westdyke
09-28-2004, 11:36 AM
"IMHO, the first thing is to make a mental note to learn some better manners and get a sense of humor and humility in order not to get in this situation again." -Seiser

This summed it up perfect. I bow down to perfection. But...

My personal feeling on this issue is extremely cut and dry. If I'm dealing with one person in a street fight I do my best not to hurt him. Pins, sidesteps and throws are on the menu.

Two people are a potentially life threatening situation. All it takes to kill someone in a fight is a LIGHT fall on concrete, or, as some of you pointed out, an accurate punch. Mistakes can happen and our would-be thugs who just want to "bloody you up" can accidentally kill you. In this situation I am looking to seriously hurt one or both attackers.

By the time one is dealing with 3 or more attackers there is no question as to their intent. People tend to be pack hunters. If you fall in a fight against 3 people you can expect to get kicked and hit with stuff. You're probably going to die. In real life people don't bounce up from a fall. Your chances of fighting your way back to a standing position are very slim. Your assailants will not stop. So you shouldn't either. It becomes a situation of who dies first.

My rule of thumb: By the time I'm FORCED to clinch or get into a position where I'm engaged, for more than a second or two, with any one of a group of attackers, its a fight for keeps. There are no pins or throws, there is only a deadly intent to live through the fight.

Maybe by the time I've been at this 20 years I will be good enough to make the decision to try to save my attackers, but until then, I intend to live long enough to have that choice.

Don't overestimate your abilities. Ten years in a MA makes you proficient, not an expert and surely not a master. Remember other people train to fight as well, and in any large group your probably going to run into a few very tough people.

Sorry about the long post. Looks like my 2 cents turned into a quarter.

W.W.

JAHsattva
09-28-2004, 11:55 AM
nice reasoning everyone!

i think now we are talking about survival mode.
we have to protect ourselves first, and then our enemy(s).

theres the priorities.

sometimes the enemy gets hurt ,while we ensure the protection of our life.
an enemy is an enemy.

thats a cool thing about aikido ,is you get to adjust the force in which one recieves,depending on the need for survival.
like some throws , can be fatal depending on how hard they land on thier head...some locks could snap a bone.

i think compassion for the enemy helps the aikidoka to reduce the ego, the amount of destruction,and helps in spiritual forgeing so to speak.

oh yeah, lian thanks for your help,honestly i wouldnt remember the movie title even if i heard it.

Tatiana
09-28-2004, 12:16 PM
but my advice:
Be quiet about knowing MA's. The reason? simple-
Let's say this comes to court, it would be harder for them to acuse you if you only claim for self defence, but in some countries, knowing MA's from certain levels is considered having a weapon- this changes the whole picture.
Cheers,
Anat

I recon Anat is right.... *waves to Anat* Here in Brazil at least, being shodan in any MA it is considered that you used a white weapon.... So if it comes up in court, and they find that out, you're snookered.... LOL! I can't say much about self defence, 'cause I'm only a yellow belt, and tho I think I do quite well with :ai: :ki: :do: , any belt moves - sometimes we do other belts moves just for fun... LOL... :D Just try and keep away from that type of situation, and that's that... ;) LOL!

Aikidoiain
09-28-2004, 01:01 PM
"Don't overestimate your abilities. Ten years in a MA makes you proficient, not an expert and surely not a master. Remember other people train to fight as well, and in any large group your probably going to run into a few very tough people".

W.W.[/QUOTE]


"You talkin' to me?".

If so, it's 25 years of MA experience I've had actually. I've been in a few scuffles in my time, and whatever skills I may have had saved my life. I never overestimate my abilities, nor do I underestimate an attackers'.

If you weren't talking to me - awfully sorry. :sorry:

As I rarely leave the house these days, I sincerely hope I never face another attacker. I'm not as fit as I used to be.

Iain. :ki: :)

JAHsattva
09-29-2004, 11:12 AM
be careful lian!

i dont think anyone wishes to challenge you personally.

everyone just offers thier own opinions,not directed to anyone.

if they are talking to you,you will see "hey lian aikidoiain" before thier reply.

you MUST tame that spirit that leaves you with something to prove.

sorry , no disrespect meant (as always) but ,only defend yourself if being attacked. otherwise it initiates an attack, and reads like you are starting something.(i know you're not).

aikido training is a lifelong task. theres a reason that there are no kumitae or tournaments in aikido.

if two people are in confrontation,and they both train and understand aikido, they would both sit down and reason with eachother.

peace to you breadren.

Aikidoiain
09-29-2004, 01:04 PM
To Jason,

Thanks for the advice, but I wasn't born yesterday you know. I was not initiating an attack either - simply "clarifying a point".

As for my Spirit - I'm a fire sign (Aries, thus the MARS avatar), sometimes I can't help myself, or go against my nature. Sorry if I offended anyone. I think I already said sorry though.

A footnote:-

Agoraphobia is sometimes know as "the fear of everything". It reminds me of an old Chinese saying - "...if you fear everything, then it follows, you must also fear no-thing, since this in itself is part of everything - therefore you are fearless"

This thought sometimes helps me through my bad days.

Now I understand what shoshin means.

Thank you.

Iain. :ki: :)

JAHsattva
09-29-2004, 01:22 PM
ahh an aries. i see now. HAha
i am a cancer sign (water,moon)

so i guess we are on opposite sides of an infinate, astrological spectrum.

you havent offended me , i hope i havent offended you.
i didnt mean to insult you either.

i like the chinese saying you posted. its actually very simular to Shoshin. very infinate meanings.
-----------
if i had to judge you , i would say you are a very knowledgable person, i respect your views.

i have to say again , its hard to read text and understand what people are meaning. :sorry:
:ai:

Aikidoiain
09-29-2004, 01:30 PM
Thanks Jason,

I appreciate your sincerity.

I also agree, it is easy to misinterpret what someone is saying - I think I do that a lot. In fact, I know I do!

Best wishes,
Iain. :ki: :)