aikido mixed with other martial arts

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[kienergy1234]

can you take aikido and another martial art,if so,what martial art would be best,would it be karate,jujutsu,judo,what would be best

[Ron Tisdale]

see the other threads like the one listed at the bottom of this page

Other Martial Arts and Aikido?

They should answer your questions. The short answer is it depends on where you train, some teachers like it, some don't, and some don't care. As to which one, it depends on your goals...since you didn't state them, its kind of hard to advise...

Ron

[Aleks]

I would like to know if it really is advisible to take courses of Aikido where it is not affiliated to Aiki Kai. I train in Monterrey, Mexico, in a dojo that it is not affilitated to Aiki Kai and I feel that I sometimes miss the essential parts of aikido such as philosophy or other techinques that probably in other dojos would be more complete. What should I do in this case?

Aleks

[SeiserL]

IMHO, train where you can and in what you can. Every style has something to offer. The choice is actually totally up to you. I tend to really enjoy cross-training in other styles of Aikido and in other arts.

[Bill Brownlow]

Hey,
Im brand new to Aikido (4 classes) and loving it; I believe it will be a fantastic supplement to BJJ (about 4 years exp). My philosophy is that I would rather not commit to a fight and go to the ground. This is why I am learning aikido for my stand up techniques. However until my aikido gets to the point where an attacker cant take me down, I've got the "gound & pound" toybox to play with :D

[acot]

The best thing that mixes with Aikido is taking a magic course. Apparently the art of desception, and the slight of hand tricks are an extremely effective bonus to almost any martial art.

Just a thought
Ryan

[jester]

I think that Judo, and Miyama Ryu Jujitsu have complimented my Aikido.
I study a form of tomiki aikido and it fits well.

In randori, I sometimes will use Osoto-gari or a foot sweep and sometimes a hip throw.

It works well for me, and still fits into the basics principles of my Aikido.

[George S. Ledyard]

can you take aikido and another martial art,if so,what martial art would be best,would it be karate,jujutsu,judo,what would be best
From the standpoint of developing my technique I would do Systema unless I was close enough to one of the top aikijutsu instructors (Toby Threadgill Sensei, Angier Sensei for example). From the standpoint of developing myself from a personal standpoint, I'd petition Relnick Sensei to accept me in Katori Shinto Ryu. He is one of the great Budo men in the states. I guess the way I think about this issue, it has more to do with finding a great teacher than a specific art. I've had the best Aikido teachers one could ever ask for and it wouldn't suffice to do another art and have a teacher that wasn't up at that level.

[Aikidoiain]

Rather than suggesting other MAs - I would start studying Human Behaviour, and in particular how to read Body Language. If you were adept at these, many potentially violent confrontations could be dissipated.

I spent time at University studying such things, in the Psychology Department. If you've heard of "Psychological Illusionists", such as the amazing Derrin Brown - you'll see how powerful these methods are. Derrin could walk up to anyone on the street and tell them all about themselves, simply by looking at the subtleties of their body language and all those subconscious signals we give out. Obviously, he's spent years studying in this field, but if you are even able to tell when an attack is coming - from observing body language, it would be a great asset to any Martial Artist.

Just a suggestion.


Iain. :ki: :)

[Lyle Laizure]

I would suggest a sword art, such as Shinkendo.

[Anders Bjonback]

I'd probably be interested in another sword art, or maybe jodo. But realistically, I've thought about Soo Bahk Do and Tai Chi. I've also considered Kyudo.
I think that getting involved with another martial art on top of aikido, tea ceremony and my school work would just be too much, though.

edit: I did Brazilian Jui Jitsu for about two years prior to starting aikido two years ago.
At first, BJJ messed me up a lot in aikido because I'd want to protect my center and wrestle, but now I think that in the right context, it could be a good complement to aikido.

[Kevin Leavitt]

I find BJJ a good complement, but like you say Anders you must be careful. I think it would be very difficult for a beginner to do both. I like the BJJ, but really only because I can apply the things I learned over the years in Aikido.

My impressions with most beginners in BJJ is they fight and use strength too much. Then again, we do it in aikido as well when starting. I think Aikido give a better methodology for learning principles of positioning and balance, whereas BJJ gives you more tactics in a realistic speed.

IMHO, a good mix.

[Steve Wright]

Don't you think that a lot of it depends on the instructor you are studying under? His/Her approach to or philosophy of their style has a lot to do with whether or not that particular art is what you want. The person that I study Judo under teaches in a way that compliments Aikido(light, balanced, quick). If I was taught in a different way than I am Judo might be more of a hinderence than a benefit.

Honestly... Take a pottery class, dance lessons(get in good with the wife), a philosophy class. These sorts of topics might really help with your Aikido. Might be fun too. Well, maybe not the philosophy class.

[Jeanne Shepard]

Learn to dance with a partner. You'll learn more about blending faster than any other way. And learn to follow if you would normally lead, and learn to lead if you would normally follow and you'll learn how to be a good uke and nage fast too!

Jeanne :p

[Kevin Leavitt]

But then are you not just dancing? what is the point of doing aikido if you are not trying to resolve conflict or mitigate something. I completely understand the need for "cooperative spirit" and "cooperative technique", but I think you have to walk the edge slightly close to being uncooperative.

It may not be fun at times, and certainly frustrating. I am certainly not in the business of studying budo for warm and fuzzies.

I completely understand what you are saying... to a degree and I am sure we are talking semantics, but for discussion...

Is aikido about blending and cooperating? or is it about mitigating adversity and conflict?

I believe there is a difference.

[Jeanne Shepard]

Alot of arts (like Aikido and dancing and horseback riding and ice skating and drawing and endless other examples) share many things in common. I do them for their own sakes, but whats wrong if they enhance each other? Especially the arts that involve relating in some way to anaother person.

Jeanne :rolleyes:

[Dario Rosati]

I choosed to start Katori Shinto Ryu after one year of aikido, and... oh man, simply enlightening even from an aikido perspective.
There are so many points of contacts (expecially in stances/timing/directions of the attacks) I wonder if O'Sensei trained in KSR and used it to develop aikido :)

1000 times better than aikiken, hands down... "normal" ken stuff during aikido makes me grin, now.... it pales in comparison, IMHO.

Bye!

[Aikidoiain]

I suppose if you want to learn self-defence techniques quickly, I would suggest the Korean Art - Hapkido. It has similar joint locks to Aikido, but also has many strikes and a lot of kicks. 6 months of that, and you could probably defend yourself in a fight. It's pretty brutal stuff.

On the other hand, Tai chi. It would compliment Aikido perfectly, and help with mind and body co-ordination - and balance. Relaxing too.

It all depends on why you're doing Martial Arts in the first place.


Iain. :ki: :)

[Charles Hill]

[QUOTE=Dario Rosati]1000 times better than aikiken, hands down... "normal" ken stuff during aikido makes me grin, now.... it pales in comparison, IMHO.[QUOTE]

Dario,

With all due respect, I suggest you visit Sendai, Japan and participate in an Aikiken class with John Stevens Sensei. You may find your grin disappearing.

Charles Hill

[CNYMike]

can you take aikido and another martial art ....

Absolutely!

.... if so,what martial art, would be best,would it be karate,jujutsu,judo,what would be best

What are you interested in? What's available in your area? As long as your sensei doesn't have a cow at the idea of your cross-training, follow your nose and do what interests you.

[Dario Rosati]

Dario,

With all due respect, I suggest you visit Sendai, Japan and participate in an Aikiken class with John Stevens Sensei. You may find your grin disappearing.

Charles Hill

I don't doubt that. Probably "grin" is not the correct word, my english is too rusty... it had too be intended as "perplexed look", not "smile of superiority".
My journey into aikido and KSR is simply at the beginning, my stated opinion is an "instant picture", not an "absolute view" :)
By now... kenjutsu stuff seems way better than aikiken to me, in an aikido perspective. I found it straightforward, oozes martiality and is extremely cut and taisabaki oriented, where aikiken looks (to me) unclear in it's purposes in relationship with tai-jutsu.
Maybe this opinion is highly dependent on my beginner status, or maybe I'm looking at the finger rather than the moon, or the way I intend taijutsu by now (very martial, essential and direct), but I cannot deny (for now) this feeling :)
I fear I'm condemned to look, try, and evaluate an awful lot of things on the subject in the coming years... which will eventually make me change the way I look at ken work, giving both activities the correct place in relationship with tai-jutsu.

BTW, is this John Stevens you mentioned the same who translated "Kihon" into "Best Aikido"?

Bye!

[Charles Hill]

Hi Dario,

What I was responding to in your post was the idea that there is such a thing as one "aikiken." It has been discussed before, but Saito Sensei`s Aikiken is different from Nishio Sensei`s and they are both different from Shirata Sensei`s and Kisshomaru Sensei`s.

Also, it is my opinion that when people unfairably compare "aikiken" with some koryu, they are likely comparing instructors, not styles. Something like Katori Shinto ryu is very controlled as to who can teach it, but I am afraid that there are a lot of teachers out there who have learned Saito Sensei`s stuff from books and video and then teach it. This is not necessarily bad, it is just that there is no quality control like that in the koryu.

Charles Hill

Yes, John Stevens Sensei translated the Doshu`s technical books.

[Ron Tisdale]

I have to second Charles opinion here....if you think aikiken is fluffy...go to Sendai. Train. Or catch Stevens Sensei on one of his seminars outside of Japan. Here is the review written by a group that practices koryu that hosted one of Stevens Sensei's seminars:

http://www.ittendojo.org/articles/aiki-12.htm

RT

[Kusarigama]

I would suggest a sword art, such as Shinkendo.

There is now a Suio Ryu Iai Kenpo Branch Dojo in Omaha. For more information, please visit our website at: http://suioryu-usa.org

Britt Nichols

[statisticool]

can you take aikido and another martial art,if so,what martial art would be best,would it be karate,jujutsu,judo,what would be best

Sweet. I thought it would be a long time before I got to use this

http://www.statisticool.com/bestma.htm

[DaveS]

I'm really enjoying learning Muay Thai on the side. I think a lot of the reasons I'm enjoying it so much come from the fact that it's technically very diiferent from aikido. Firstly, this lets me learn about a whole lot of subtle and cool new stuff - boxing combinations, kicks and what to do about them, clinching and so on - that I wouldn't even have seen in my aikido training. Secondly, it makes it that much cooler when you occasionally realize that what you just did could alternatively be considered an aikido technique.

Judo and BJJ look like they might make interesting complements, too, but there's no way I can currently study them without compromising my aikido.

[Kevin Leavitt]

Too much to study...too little time!

I am the exact opposite, study BJJ and wish I had time to study Muay Thai some!

[Cady Goldfield]

Muay Thai is a lot of fun, nasty and a good workout. I had a chance to use the training facilities at a muay Thai school in Chiang Mai when I was in Thailand (couldn't actually train with the others because of being female), and enjoyed watching the bouts at the local watering hole... fun to sit in on because sometimes a farang/foreigner training in the area would want to take a go at it, and got thumped. :D

But the movements of muay Thai, like those of TKD and other basic P/K arts, run counter to most of the body alignments, movements and essential power-generating sources of aiki arts. I envy those of you who can practice these things without compromising your aikido, but I had to give up torque/projectile MAs in order to re-form my body to be able to do the stuff I do now.

[Kevin Leavitt]

I don't think they run counter really, the angles and vortexes are all the same done correctly. The dynamic and timing may be different in somethings as you are concerned with striking and kicking more so. The non-compliance aspect and sport rules certainly influence what happens, but it is subject to the same principles and done correctly, can help you figure out how to apply aikido concepts in an non-compliant environment. Very compatible if you ask me.

[DH]

Well I've taught people over the years who trained in those striking arts who would strongly disagree with you, Kevin. Including a few who have seen their striking power increase greatly. Punching, kicking and throwing both long range and in close can have power generated differently then what they knew. Several of whom were muay tai guys, Goju guys, Kyokushin Karate and boxers.
Maybe the fact that -you- can't see the difference, doesn't necessarily mean there isn't one.
Power can be generated externally or internally or a combination of both. Anyone who tells me "It's all the same." pretty much tells me allot about their understanding.
Don't get me wrong there are great fighters who use external muscles. So, no.... I am not talking down to ya in that aspect.
I just personally know dozens of men who would not agree with you that what I taught them was the same as what they walked in with.
Cheers
Dan

[Cady Goldfield]

I don't think they run counter really, the angles and vortexes are all the same done correctly. The dynamic and timing may be different in somethings as you are concerned with striking and kicking more so. The non-compliance aspect and sport rules certainly influence what happens, but it is subject to the same principles and done correctly, can help you figure out how to apply aikido concepts in an non-compliant environment. Very compatible if you ask me.

Hi Kevin,
The "internal" power generation of Ueshiba's aikido (the stuff Mike, Dan and Rob refer to) really does run counter to the "external" (muscular) type of power generation that are the mainstays of p/k arts such as muay Thai. The difference became pretty clear within a few weeks of starting to study internal arts, after I'd spent more than 20 years "specializing" in punching and striking, studying under teachers who were karateka and boxers, among others. It quickly became clear that the very mechanisms that create powerful external/projectile punching stymie the development of relaxed, non-muscular internal power.

Don't get me wrong; the power of external strikes/punches and kicks from a good puncher/striker/kicker is not something any sane person would want to take to critical points of the body. ;) But I'm finding that the internal sources require a very different way of focusing mind and neuro-muscular impulses. I just can't see dividing training time between two such contrasting forms of power generation. To get anywhere at all, in my opinion, you have to choose one or the other and follow the path with both feet.

[Kevin Leavitt]

I suppose it is quite possible I do not know what I am talking about, thank you for pointing that out.

[Cady Goldfield]

Nah. I just stink at describing things, and probably even moreso at integrating two different forms of energy development and transfer. :^\ P/K, in its contemporary forms such as modern muay Thai and TKD, Shotokan karate and the like, tends to require a more rigid body alignment forming a very simple pathway to transfer energy, and the source of the energy is pretty simplistic in origin and in use. It relies heavily on hip/body torque and acceleration, and requires the practitioner to be in motion to generate the most power. It works in bursts of acceleration that are fairly anaerobic and linear.

It's external - not just because of the use of muscle and torque, but also because in most cases, power is being generated only by you and is sent away from you. You aren't receiving energy into your body from someone else then delivering it back. Energy from others is usually deflected or redirected, as in parries and blocks.

That just seems counter to what you'd try to accomplish in aikido and other aiki arts.

[DH]

Maybe a better question is what do people think Aikido teaches as a mechanic...to..punch. How would it generate power from a punch to a throw.
How would it stop-the same things such as Single and double legs, head kicks, underhooks, fients and jabs etc, etc.
How would its theories of movement defend against a well balanced attacker. I think thats more in tune with Aikido mixing with other arts. I really don't think most in the art are working on basic internal movement anyway so I'd set that aside
Dan

[jonreading]

I like to think of Aikido as the horse with which I started the race. I may do other things, but I will finish the race on that horse.

Aikido provides me with competent training in a Japanese martial art. I choose to suppliment my aikido training in those area where I struggle to excel. Judo, karate, and jujitsu are great aids to my aikido training and I appreciate those who help me in my training. I really like Dan's post about limiting the influence of training in secondary or tertiary martial arts. Train aikido. If you are weak with striking, take karate. If you are weak with throws, play judo. If you have bad weapons skills, practice kenjitsu. Make your aikido better.

Aikido is a martial art system which does not lack anything. Do not mistake poor instruction for a poor system. If you are looking for something you do not find in your aikido training, I would first ask if you are training correctly. If you are training correctly, but you still do not find what you are looking for in aikido, aikido is not for you.

[Kevin Leavitt]

Jon,

Aikido principally may not lack anything, certainly anything is within the realm of aikido if you ask me.....but in many aspects the way it is traditonally trained, it does lack in many areas, in so much as it is not one size fits all and cannot be all things to all people and does not train certain aspects of martial technique as well as some other methodlogies.

But, I agree, it is not lacking in the spirit that you are presenting it in when trained correctly.

[eyrie]

Maybe a better question is what do people think Aikido teaches as a mechanic...to..punch. How would it generate power from a punch to a throw.
How would it stop-the same things such as Single and double legs, head kicks, underhooks, fients and jabs etc, etc.
How would its theories of movement defend against a well balanced attacker. I think thats more in tune with Aikido mixing with other arts. I really don't think most in the art are working on basic internal movement anyway so I'd set that aside
Dan

Excellent tack. Reframe the question and hope for a paradigm shift... :D

[DaveS]

I think there's a difference between wanting to learn another art because aikido lacks something you need and learning it because you feel aikido lacks[1] something you find interesting. For instance, if I went to learn BJJ, it wouldn't be because I'm worried about needing to use groundwork and that being a gap in my aikido, but because I'd be interested to find out how groundwork works, and would enjoy the challenge of learning it.

@ Cady - would you say the contrasting methods of generating power cause a problem only if you're trying to 'combine' the arts in some way? And if not, does this stop at martial arts, or could training in other sports like (say) rugby or rowing or volleyball? And how would you work with atemi in an aikido context?

[1] edit: 'doesn't teach' might be a better phrase than 'lacks' - aikido doesn't teach basket weaving, but saying it lacks basket weaving techniques suggests that this is a significant shortcoming. Which to my mind it isn't.

[darin]

Could try Yoseikan Budo (YWF).

[Cady Goldfield]

David,

I'm just musing here, but I'd say it depends on the arts we're combining. I suspect that if the arts we practice historically incorporated both, then even if they are missing portions of those principles today and have moved in other directions, they may still be structurally compatible (although in need of refitting alterations) to take them back in and utilize them again. Sometimes, that means looking at/cross training in other arts that have those skills available.

An example might be Okinawan karate systems that are purported to have been influenced by Chinese internal arts. After having been in various karate dojo over the years, I recall that some of them did "funny exercises" that didn't seem to provide anything specific other than vague "conditioning," but which I believe now were the vestiges of training methods originally meant to produce power from sources other than the P/K torque approach we're used to seeing. Somehow, the original meaning and function of the exercises got lost or changed along the way and thus lost some or all of their potency. Their students might find that cross training in certain Chinese disciplines would be compatible with what they are doing, and they may have an "aha" moment someday when doing those dojo "conditioning" exercises. I don't know.

But if that is so, then I'd have to say there is the potential for seemingly contrasting methods for generating power to -not- be a problem. Again, it depends on the arts that you're combining. Wouldn't we want there to be a common thread among them, a physical compatibility, so we're not trying to attach the butt of a horse to the torso of a cat? ;)

Rather than just sampling other arts to see what they're like, or to pick up a few "side skills," wouldn't it make more sense to find those which truly augment the skills we are already practicing?

As for "cross training" in sports that seem compatible... I say if you want a radish, plant a radish. ;) Why go outside your field for the nebulous possibility of finding a skill you can use in an unrelated activity? I'd rather search first within my art, and then in related arts, to find what is "missing."

[aikidjoe]

But then are you not just dancing? what is the point of doing aikido if you are not trying to resolve conflict or mitigate something. I completely understand the need for "cooperative spirit" and "cooperative technique", but I think you have to walk the edge slightly close to being uncooperative.

It may not be fun at times, and certainly frustrating. I am certainly not in the business of studying budo for warm and fuzzies. ...

Is aikido about blending and cooperating? or is it about mitigating adversity and conflict?

I believe there is a difference.

I think Kevin is asking a critical question. If Aikido is about blending and cooperating, then it could conceivably live in its own world, in which case training in another martial art is not necessary. On the other hand, if Aikido is about mitigating adversity and conflict, then one must understand the nature of conflict. It appears to me that, if this is so, Aikido cannot stand alone. O'Sensei and most (all? I am not sure...) of his most prominent students trained in other martial arts prior and/or during their study of Aikido. It's been cited here in AikWeb and throughout Aikido Journal how they would test their skills on the streets and with other martial artists. This appears to me as a way to branch out and understand the essence of conflict, and a deeper study of how to resolve it.

Training in Aikido today seems terribly washed out compared to how it began (from what I've read). There is this mushy feeling that Aikido is about love and compassion, and so "walking the edge," as Kevin put it, is often ruled out for safety. This is sensible, for if we all got hurt, how could we train? But nonetheless it takes the danger, the fire, out of practice. The sense of conflict is gone, and without that conflict, what are we practicing? What are resolving? Are we really studying Aikido then? This is where pushing the limit comes in. Taking things to the edge allows us to study conflict in a more practical way, and only by understanding conflict can we understand how to resolve it.

This all is under the assumption that Aikido is about "mitigating adversity and conflict." If this is what you want to learn from your practice, then yes, training in another martial art would be beneficial. It exposes an aikidoist to forms of conflict that they are not familiar with, and deepens the study of it. If, on the other hand, your purpose is different, such as exercise, mental training, etc., then you can buffer your training in other ways such as bicycling, meditation, etc. Or, if you practice Aikido because its damn fun, then why look elsewhere?

[CNYMike]

......The difference became pretty clear within a few weeks of starting to study internal arts, after I'd spent more than 20 years "specializing" in punching and striking, studying under teachers who were karateka and boxers, among others. It quickly became clear that the very mechanisms that create powerful external/projectile punching stymie the development of relaxed, non-muscular internal power.....

Yet I fnd importan similarities. I can't think of one of the systems you mentioned that tells people to tense everything and just swing their arms. I've been working on trying to relax my shoulders for almost ten years now, since my karate teacher pointed it out to me. In Western Boxing, not only are you supposed to keep your shoulders relaxed (even when you lift your shoulder t cover your jaw) but you get power for the cross and the hook from body turns, not the arms by themselves. In fact, the way I've been taught the lead hook, the arm does almost nothing.

It seems to me that "striking systems" reqire their fair shar of relaxation, too. Indeed, one of my justifications for returning to Aikido in 2004 was to work on relaxing my shoulders. (Doubly frustrating because every time I think I'm making progress, someone points out how tight my shoulders are.) So I'm with Kevin. At least WRT the need to be relaxed, Aikido is right there with other arts, including striking arts.

[DH]

Relaxation is step one, allowing the body to be a conduit. But a conduit....for what? Relaxed movement is not nearly all the same.
Dan

[Cady Goldfield]

Michael, I didn't mean to sound as though I were saying that P/K movement is not relaxed, or that it "muscles" its movements. That was awkward phrasing on my part. Relaxation is critical to any physical endeavor. We wouldn't be able to walk without it. :)

[Kevin Leavitt]

relaxation is definitely important. it is related to propriception. with propriception we relax in one area where resistance is felt....then you realign and transfer that energy to another area in which to return that energy.

Hard to describe for me as it is a feeling. Relax, align, breath, and redirect....it all connects and goes together.

There is more to it than just relaxing.