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Sita Nanthavong
09-27-2004, 02:45 AM
Our dojo has its own little email listserve.. and realistic attacks were brought up. i was just kinda curious to know what you guys think.

So, uke is supposed to give realistic attacks when practising with nage, correct?

i guess my question is... how do you give a realistic attack when you're never realistically attacked anyone? i've never fought, i don't know how it feels to really want to hit someone or to actually hit someone. there's no "killer" instinct in me. i've never wanted to harm anyone. i don't have an aggressive side to me in that way. i've never picked a fight, and i'll never pick a fight. my personal aikido is strictly offensive.... until that person starts to physically strike me, i won't make a move. they might have that glimmer of evil in their eyes, or they might be verbally threatening me... but until it gets physical, i won't get physical.

in practise, i go through the motion and vary my speed depending upon the level of experience of my partner... but sometimes they ask for more energy so it's more realistic.

how do you give a realistic physical attack when you don't know how to attack someone?

bruce bryan
09-27-2004, 04:02 AM
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Giving a realistic attack is not the same as really attacking your Sh'te. A realistic attack is one that is performed with good kime and zanshin. If you are doing realistic application, 'Oyo', of dojo techniques, a defense against a punch for instance, your Uke must give his attack the feeling that it would do damage without actually diong so. A wet lettuce punch will hinder the learning process rather that aid it. The attack technique should be strong but controlled, accurate i.e. on target and focused. If not, Sh'te will not get the feeling of being under pressure and the defense technique will be sloppy and unrealistic also.
I have found over the years, that most dojo injuries come from soft,weakly executed attacks, as the Uke is not focussed and so get hurt by Sh'te as they do their defensive technique.
In aikido, like many martial arts, we learn the basics in idealised set patterns, 'Uke grabs Sh'te left wrist; must have right leg forward' or 'Uke only attacks shomen uchi with the left arm so Sh'te can turn to the right'; 'Sh'te will apply this or that control' etc, etc. These idealised patterns are far removed from real encounter situations.

It is vitally important to also study and learn the real Oyo, or application of learned techniques, as the real application more often than not, is far removed from the actual basic technique learned in the dojo.

Whilst Aikido teaches harmony, respect and to always look for a non violent conclusion to an encounter, life is ugly and getting uglier. One must use the 'right tool for the job', but the tools need to be in the box to begin with. To be confident in your Aikido techniques takes a lot of hard repetative dojo training, but that training must include 'Bar room' application with good simulated attacks if ever the student is to become confident in their skills should the proverbial hit the fan.

With respect.


:D

xuzen
09-27-2004, 04:13 AM
i guess my question is... how do you give a realistic attack when you're never realistically attacked anyone? i've never fought, i don't know how it feels to really want to hit someone or to actually hit someone. there's no "killer" instinct in me. i've never wanted to harm anyone. i don't have an aggressive side to me in that way. i've never picked a fight, and i'll never pick a fight. my personal aikido is strictly offensive.... until that person starts to physically strike me, i won't make a move. they might have that glimmer of evil in their eyes, or they might be verbally threatening me... but until it gets physical, i won't get physical.

in practise, i go through the motion and vary my speed depending upon the level of experience of my partner... but sometimes they ask for more energy so it's more realistic.

how do you give a realistic physical attack when you don't know how to attack someone?

Sita,

In your case, realistic attack is what you perceive to be. Give your most sincere and commited attack to the shite. Realistic attack is not a matter of how hard, how strong, how fast, it is IMO, how sincere you are. If you are sincere in your heart to give a commited attack so that the shite is able to learn the technique, then it is a realistic enough a technique for me.

On a side note, try asking a 5-6 y/o kids to attack you after you have annoyed him/her, that is realistic attack for me. Ha ha ha...

Cheers,
Boon.

JohnWertz
09-27-2004, 07:58 AM
If you're truly interested in "real" attacks, recruit a police officer onto your Dojo. Very few people have the day to day experience in dealing with all types of conflict from all types of people in all types of mental states. Ask them to attack you in the ways they have been attacked and your eyes will be truly opened.

Lyle Laizure
09-27-2004, 08:30 AM
In my opinion sincerity in your attack is most important. It has to be sincere, meaning that if your uke doesn't move uke gets hit. Of course you do not practice beyond the ability of your uke, but the attack should be sincere and commited.

jester
09-27-2004, 09:22 AM
In my opinion, a realistic attack has to have a realistic follow through. Without that, it's not a real attack. The follow through depends on the type of technique you are practicing.

You can have a great punch, but if you just keep your arm out there and wait for the technique to occur, it isn't very realistic.

When people attack, they usually follow up, either with the other hand, a kick, an elbow strike etc.

In our style, we get off the line of attack, while effecting uke's balance. The recovery of uke is what will dictate the appropriate move.

So for me, a realistic attack is one that is committed, and a recovery that's appropriate for the technique being practiced.

senshincenter
09-27-2004, 10:26 AM
For me, a "realistic" attack is understood to be an "authentic" attack. By that I mean to suggest that it of course must include things like sincerity, proper intention, commitment, etc., but it must also be based upon a tactically valid architecture.

dmv

SeiserL
09-27-2004, 04:07 PM
IMHO, you will never offer a "realistic attack" in Dojo training. The best is to offer yourself with enough intensity and intent that if your partners does not get off the line, you will tag them. You may want to do some Atemi training against a heavy bag, makawara, or focus mits to get a better feel.

senshincenter
09-27-2004, 05:36 PM
Whatever we may call it and whatever we may say it has to consist of, and getting back to the first post, I think one has to realize it's a cultivated artifact. That is to say, you have have to learn it, and that means that someone has to teach it to you and that you have to give yourself time to truly come to understand it and embody it. If the term "realistic" is used in your dojo, find out what that means, and then go along studying it to the best of your abilities - even if that takes you beyond your dojo. In time, as with every other aspect of your training, you will come to perform the move effectively. The fact that you cannot do something now, or have not done something up until now, in no way prevents you from grasping something in the near or distant future. This is the groundwork of all training after all. Such a personal history only marks the way by which you will come to gain what is being held out before you. Orient yourself by that history and simply move forward, one step at a time. You'll get it. Hang in there.

dmv

L. Camejo
09-27-2004, 07:34 PM
Personally I try not to use the term realistic attack in training, but effective attack. In other words, if one is defending from a jab, hook punch, knife thrust/slash, front, side or roundhouse kick etc. the principle we use is to tailor the attack in such a way that there are minimal if not zero technical flaws in the way of leaving openings for easy application of Aikido technique, targeting is precise and intended to hit the target if Tori does not move, is quick, sharp and powerful but controlled so that in case Tori reacts poorly he does not get knocked out.

In this way we try to deal with the most difficult version of a particular attack, e.g. tight, almost linear hook and round punches that have a direct track to target are preferred over haymakers, or tight, diagonal roundhouse kicks are used over the wide swinging type of roundhouse. This way if we have to deal with a skilled striker we should have some options, if the person is the average joe who does not know how to attack in an efficient manner, we should have even more options.

Just my 2 cents.
LC:ai::ki:

Yokaze
09-28-2004, 02:23 PM
I think there is a slight misinterpretation of language here. There needs to be a discrepency between "sincere" and "realistic."

When striking Yokomken, for instance, we usually signal to the nage that the attack is about to begin. Not realistic.

A strike with "intent" need not be a strike with excessive force. With Tsuki, for instance, the Uke is aiming for a point within or behind the center of the nage. So long as the fist is truly aiming for that point, speed is unnecessary, especially at the beginning levels. Throwing your strongest right hook as Yokomen is irresponsible unless there is a previous agreement.

So here's my strategy:

Discuss with your partner beforehand how hard the attack is to be. Always strike with INTENT (as in, if they don't move, they're going to get hit), but control your POWER, based on the needs of the nage.

A holding attack, however, should always be a very tight grip in a very controlling manner. Channel all of your energy into the hold, because that energy is, in theory, going to be used to throw you, making the throw easier for the nage if their form is good, and tough for them if their form needs correcting. This will help them improve.

I hope my humble opinion has been a help.

senshincenter
09-28-2004, 03:22 PM
Well that's the problem I think some are trying to get at here with their discussion over the word "realistic." What is "real" has to at some level include anything and everything you might find in a real (i.e. actual) self-defense or real (i.e. actual) combative situation. In short then, that means just about anything, since one can face just about anything in such cases. And one of those "anythings" is certainly telegraphing. So I would say that while a telegraphed attack may not be a very authentic attack (i.e. not close enough to the accepted ideal), it could very well be what one may face in a "real" situation and hence it must at some level be considered part of a real attack. However, if our intent with telegraphing is to let our nage know what is coming and when, then I think one would be hard-pressed to see this as a "real" attack. This type of telegraphing is different from the telegraphing of ignorance, of over-extension, and of poor technique. However, one then could say that telegraphing so as to purposefully alert nage as to what and when is also not a very sincere attack since one's sincerity is found more in the telegraphing and less in the attacking.

two cents,
dmv