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kienergy1234
09-21-2004, 11:44 AM
i need to know how long it might take aikido to work against a strong uncoopartive person in a self defense situation.
i have had family members who can tottally resist my technique and if it happens this way on the streets IM going to get hurt in a self defense situation.
how many months or years does it take for aikido to REALLY start working even on a extremely strong and uncooperative person.

P.S. i have been taking aikikai aikido for 3 months

Greg Jennings
09-21-2004, 12:55 PM
It depends.

Best regards,

Aikidoiain
09-21-2004, 05:13 PM
Keep training, and you will eventually learn how to use the strength of others against themselves. A rule of thumb I've learned is - if they push, you pull - if they pull, you push. Let them go in the direction of their own energy.

Hope this helps.

Iain. :ki: :)

sjm924
09-21-2004, 05:32 PM
Josh,

I'd agree with the others here, it depends on uke, if he's pushing or pulling. It took me a couple years to "grasp" an understanding of 2nd and 3rd control, how they actually work in different situations. And I'm still learning.

Best advice--just be patient and consistent with your training. Oh, and remember that aikido is, for the most part, defensive. You can't really "exert" a technique on anyone. Aikido is mostly dependent upon uke's momentum being applied to you. What you do with this "gift" of energy is up to you and your muscle-memory (how often you train). If there is an attack or imminent attack, you will respond with the correct technique or action.

Keep training hard and have an open mind. It will come.

shihonage
09-21-2004, 06:05 PM
If your primary and immediate goal is simple and effective self-defense, take Krav Maga.
I thought it was a martial art until I looked into it and found out that its a reality self-defense system.

unique
09-21-2004, 06:23 PM
:ki: Hi Jushua;
IMHO and as we were repeatedly told by our sensei, "use the opponents power against him / her after you break their ki" once the opponent is off balance and your center of gravity is the center for both, then any technique could be easily implemented - the harder the opponent the better - AIKIDO is all about spherical movements and the correct timing in a centralized motion that leads your opponent - without him / her noticing to a neutralized position.

Also a good use of the elements - water, earth, fire, wood & heaven. Knowing when to resist, when to lead and when to absorb or when to use all the above is in the heart of AIKIDO. You should NEVER intent to harm your opponent just guide him / her through their own energy and power to were you are safe.
"To injure an opponent is to injure yourself. To control aggression without inflicting injury is Aikido. " Morihei Ueshiba

hope that helped...

Yours;

Khalid Allahou
Mushin AIKI Kuwait
:ai: :ki: :do:

Greg Jennings
09-21-2004, 06:55 PM
A rule of thumb I've learned is - if they push, you pull - if they pull, you push
The common saying in aikido is "When pulled, enter. When pushed, turn."

Best regards,

xuzen
09-21-2004, 08:55 PM
i need to know how long it might take aikido to work against a strong uncoopartive person in a self defense situation.
i have had family members who can tottally resist my technique and if it happens this way on the streets IM going to get hurt in a self defense situation.
how many months or years does it take for aikido to REALLY start working even on a extremely strong and uncooperative person.

P.S. i have been taking aikikai aikido for 3 months

Dearest Joshua,

How long does on take to play Bethoven's Symphony No. 5 on a piano or whatever? I surely do not think three months practice will suffice. Want to really be effective? Knee your family member in the groin, the proceed to do the technique; logic tells me that it may jolly well work wonderfully, provided your family member is of the male species.

Regards, :D
Boon.

batemanb
09-22-2004, 07:02 AM
Joshua,

The time to effectiveness is different for everyone. 3 months is probably unlikely unless you have previous experience.

I read this earlier today having been directed there on the AJ forum. It is a two part conversation that addresses your query quite well. The whole article is good, the second part specifically addresses the issue that you brought up above.

http://www.iwama-ryu.se/page/154/160

Regards

Bryan

jester
09-22-2004, 04:32 PM
i need to know how long it might take aikido to work against a strong uncooperative person in a self defense situation. i have had family members who can totally resist my technique.

2 things might help you out.

1st thing is that nothing ever works.

This means that if you try a technique, it might not work (there are so many variables), so why force it? If it fails, you are always given something else. If that fails to, then do something else. Try learning how techniques flow and work together. This can be learned through Randori.

2nd is that there is no what if, only what is.

If you try a particular technique and someone says to you well what if I did this, your response must change to fit the new scenario. you might do a totally different thing, or you might just need to adjust slightly.

The bottom line is if uke is always uncooperative, then your training might suffer. Being a good uke isn't easy.

I would advise you not to do techniques on your family or friends. Someone is liable to get hurt.

hope this helps

Bronson
09-22-2004, 08:45 PM
there is no what if, only what is.

Hey, I like that. May I use it?

Bronson

Lyle Laizure
09-22-2004, 10:31 PM
It is going to depend on the individual. How far are you willing to escalate the situation, whether family or stranger?

Jason Tonks
09-23-2004, 03:27 AM
Hello there Joshua. All the above points mentioned are good valid points. One other thing that might be worthy of note is where you are starting the technique from. My feeling is that as you are a beginner you are trying to do them from static. Nakazono Sensei, one of my own Sensei's teachers called this "dead aikido". This is how you learn to do the techniques as a beginner. This is not to say that because something has gone static or your uke/opponent has consolidated a grab or hold that you cannot do anything, however it does mean that if you have a limited experience in aiki this will be glaringly obvious to both yourself and the person you are attempting the technique on. This tends to cause the person attempting the technique to force it on and the other person in turn "clamming up". You need to train long and hard enough in order to be able to sense the right technique at exactly the right moment in time (this always changes) and to be able to switch in the blink of an eye if necessary. Once you have a good grounding in static/dead aikido then you should be applying technique on uke from movement. This usually involves entering in with a strong martial intent and spirited irmi and letting whatever technique is appropriate happen. By this stage you should have cultivated the mindset and general aura of a martial artist. (This is not a PC view but I don't consider everybody that trains in a martial art as a martial artist). Once you get to this stage you will no longer need to "mess about" with friends and family attempting techniques on them. Try not to look at things from a "how long?" long point of view, just train as often as you can and put your heart and soul into each session. Ability will soon creep up on you.

All the best
Jason T

ian
09-23-2004, 06:47 AM
I think alot of people loose faith in aikido because they have never had to use it in a real situation. Nothing is ever like the dojo - aikido just gives you tools to work with.

Often with demonstrating to non aikidoka aikido seems not to work well. This is often because the aikidoka tries to 'do' something to a stationary person, or the person attacking is not committed. Remember ueshiba said aikido is 90% atemi. If someone wants you to demonstrate aikido, hit them in the face as hard as you can - this will get them angry enough that they will do a proper attack.

ian
09-23-2004, 06:49 AM
P.S. instead of trying to 'do' something, just think of getting away from them. Even from static you should be able to get out of simple grabs - it isn't necessary to 'do' a technique to someone. Aikido is primarily about protecting you, not about damaging the other person.

An 'uncooperative' person? There is no such thing. We train in set techniques in the dojo, but after you have learnt the techniques, then you can start learning aikido properly. Just work with what you have and don't exclude any option.

aikidocapecod
09-23-2004, 08:48 AM
Something a Sensei said to me a long time ago....

When you TRY to do something you will not.
When you TRY to control another you will not
Just control yourself, and you will do...

I found that a very good powerful piece of advice...not just in the MA, but in all aspects of life.

Best thing to do is practice and have fun in the learning....

sjm924
09-24-2004, 01:38 PM
Remember ueshiba said aikido is 90% atemi. If someone wants you to demonstrate aikido, hit them in the face as hard as you can - this will get them angry enough that they will do a proper attack.

An interesting point made by Shioda Sensei is that atemi can be conceived as THE POINT OF CONTACT between shite and uke. So it doesn't always have to be interpreted as striking with a fist. Body strikes for example. Or just contact.

kienergy1234
09-27-2004, 02:03 AM
if they pull enter and if they push u turn,but what if they ground their energy and stay stationary,i have had this happen

grondahl
09-27-2004, 02:33 AM
if they pull enter and if they push u turn,but what if they ground their energy and stay stationary,i have had this happen

Atemi.

to quote other more experienced aikidoka, shut up and train

xuzen
09-27-2004, 02:37 AM
if they pull enter and if they push u turn,but what if they ground their energy and stay stationary,i have had this happen

Twist their little pinky, stomp on the foot, kick the groin, poke the eyes, bite, pepper spray, spray paint and any dirty loathsome technique you can think off to distract the adversary...then proceed to do the technique.

Shut up and train.

Boon.

Shane Mokry
09-30-2004, 03:48 PM
Joshua,

Aikido does not work that way. Uke's actions dictate what technique will "fit" at the time. It will take years of UKEMI to be able to let techniques happen appropriately. You cannot just walk up and "do" aikido to someone. Especially if they know what you are going to do. Keep training and receiving techniques. It will come. Good luck.

Shane

L. Camejo
09-30-2004, 03:56 PM
if they pull enter and if they push u turn,but what if they ground their energy and stay stationary,i have had this happen

Hi Josh,

Exactly what do you mean by"ground their energy and stay stationary"? If this is the case, are they just standing there looking at you or are they attacking while maintaining this stationary posture?

I've met some Chinese MA folks especially in Wing Chun who can strike with a lot of power whilst not giving away much body movement for one to apply kuzushi and technique. The solution of course is a matter of more precise timing on Tori's part to engage the strike at the correct interval before the foot lands imo. But I was wondering since if the person is stationary, how are they able to attack you if you keep proper ma ai?

Just wondering.
LC:ai::ki:

deepsoup
09-30-2004, 04:11 PM
An interesting point made by Shioda Sensei is that atemi can be conceived as THE POINT OF CONTACT between shite and uke. So it doesn't always have to be interpreted as striking with a fist. Body strikes for example. Or just contact.
Interesting.
Kenji Tomiki had ideas about atemi along similar lines.
http://homepage2.nifty.com/shodokan/en/kyogi7.html

Sean
x

NagaBaba
09-30-2004, 05:40 PM
if they pull enter and if they push u turn,but what if they ground their energy and stay stationary,i have had this happen

YOU decide if their attack is static or more dynamic. If you let them attack in static way, you must to know how to apply a technique.

Yes, it is possible to execute most of techniques from static attack. However not many instructors are able to demonstrate it even in dojo envirennement.

If you move all time, they will change a way of attacking, so you can find an opening in their attack. Also remember, if you are beginner, you let them touch you(grab, strike etc....) but advanced aikidoka will never do that.
REAL aikido happens BEFORE contact.

Roy Balikpapan
10-06-2004, 02:08 AM
if they pull enter and if they push u turn,but what if they ground their energy and stay stationary,i have had this happen

I have had this happen too, usually when we do a suwari waza kokyu ho.
I found that is a lot of easier if I direct uke's energy using my wrist hand first and then go through tegatana and then move uke's center,that way I will able to move uke.

If I do this properly, and uke's still doesn't move, the only thing that happen is uke will lose his grasp on my hand. :)

On the contrary when my sensei is nage and me as his uke, I just can't figure it out what happen, my energy is just flow like being absorb by his hand no matter how hard I'm trying to ground my energy.

*Oh boy ! it's a long way to run, still need more practice* :rolleyes:

sjm924
10-09-2004, 02:53 AM
Interesting.
Kenji Tomiki had ideas about atemi along similar lines.
http://homepage2.nifty.com/shodokan/en/kyogi7.html

Sean
x

Sean,

Thanks for the link. . . very cool. From what I understand both Shioda and Tomiki learned from Ueshiba around the same time period.
Thanks again.

JasonFDeLucia
11-07-2004, 07:06 PM
i need to know how long it might take aikido to work against a strong uncoopartive person in a self defense situation.
i have had family members who can tottally resist my technique and if it happens this way on the streets IM going to get hurt in a self defense situation.
how many months or years does it take for aikido to REALLY start working even on a extremely strong and uncooperative person.

P.S. i have been taking aikikai aikido for 3 months
with an instructor who is willing to do away with the precepts of Okuden (secret oral transmissions which have to be earned)
you can assimilate the mechanics for one technique in 6 months 3 hous a day every day ,but still to use it takes a lifetime to master.you will need also to practice against types of attacks not normally associated with the basic traditional kyu,and you can't or shouldn't over look the basic kyu .essentially grabs are the way to liberate your self to strikes .strikes are the way to liberate your self from strikes.but first start with some one grabbing you .and the reps left and right you do in class should pale in comparison to the reps you do in private 10,100,1000......

jester
11-08-2004, 03:48 PM
to use it takes a lifetime to master

What exactly does this mean?

L. Camejo
11-08-2004, 05:08 PM
Actually from my experience effectiveness against resistance has a lot more to do with mastery of the fundamentals and basics of tai sabaki, kuzushi, metsuke, ma ai and atemi that you learn from day one rather than any secret teachings or Okuden.

But this is just my view.

It does take mastery and years of training to operate against resistance and make it look as clean and pretty as non-resistance training though.

Just my 2 cents.
LC:ai::ki:

maikerus
11-08-2004, 05:12 PM
to use it takes a lifetime to master

What exactly does this mean?

I don't know what Jason actually meant, but I take it to mean that you never stop learning.

--Michael

JasonFDeLucia
11-14-2004, 06:26 PM
I don't know what Jason actually meant, but I take it to mean that you never stop learning.

--Michael
yes ,it's not like a bicycle .once you learn it you must forget it and learn it again until you've assimilated enough variable information then it's like alot of different bikes.

Rocky Izumi
11-14-2004, 10:40 PM
One thing you might look at is the direction and position of your hip relative to uke's when you are the nage. A lot of countering in Aikido techniques simply starts by uke repositioning their hip to be either behind your or not at 90 degrees to your hip. To be most effective, almost all techniques, at least at some point in the technique, requires your hip to be at 90 degrees to and behind uke's hip. The easiest way to check this is to check which way uke's bellybutton is pointing and which way nage's bellybutton is pointing. For nage to be effective, the hips should be at 90 degrees. However, you must also consider who is behind who. This cannot be determined by foot position but by shoulder position. At a critical point in the technique where you are stopped from going any further with the technique by uke, have both uke and nage drop their hands by their sides without changing the position of the rest of their body. The person who can most easily touch the other person's back with one of their hands is the person who is behind the other. A person whose feet are behind nage's feet can still have their body in front. If a person is bent over (possibly from an atemi), if both nage and uke drop their hands, you will find that nage can easily touch uke's back while uke cannot tough nage's back. Another important consideration is nage's ki extension and uke's centre. Nage's ki should be above uke's ki centre, tanden, so that nage can crush uke. This is best accomplished by swinging the arms up (furikaburi). If your arms do not swing up fully and your arms are not above uke's centre, You won't be able to move uke.

Rock