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anunymis
09-07-2004, 09:10 AM
There's a guy in my dojo who is making me feel really uncomfortable. He keeps coming up to me and saying rreally inappropriate things. And it especially bothers me because I"m only 15 and he is twenty something. Has anybody had this happen to them?

ruthmc
09-08-2004, 11:43 AM
Good grief! Go to your sensei and tell him / her IMMEDIATELY what you've just told the message boards. Harassment is harassment - all the worse because you are under 18 - and it is illegal.

If your instructor doesn't tell this guy to stay away from you, please stay away from him, and please also consider finding another place to train where that sort of behaviour is not tolerated.

If you feel strong enough to confront your harasser (which you must do in public), ask him if he realises that you are only 15 and tell him that you find his comments highly inappropriate.

Nobody has the right to treat you this way. Stand up for yourself and take action NOW!

Good luck, and please let us know how this situation works out for you.

Ruth

Janet Rosen
09-08-2004, 12:16 PM
Hi. I agree with Ruth.
1. Do not let yourself be maneuvered into a situation where you are alone with him.
2. Tell your instructor immediately. Also, if you have a good relationship with your mom or dad, and they won't just go ballistic and pull you from training, tell one one of them.
3. Most people like this are like bullies: they back off if firmly confronted. If you think you can do it: Direct eye contact, a level voice, good posture: I am 15 years old, I do not like being spoken to this way and you will stop it NOW. Don't be afraid if others hear this--it is all the better. It embarrasses him, not you! It's also ok if right now you feel you can't try this. Main thing is to let other, responsible adults know and get them to deal with it.
I remember being your age, and how isolating it could feel when somebody was like this jerk. Do reach out for assistance in dojo (and home if ok) and do let us know.

Greg Jennings
09-08-2004, 12:25 PM
Kick him in the balls
See his face turn purple and gag
Tell Sensei ev'rything

Cheers,

Matt Molloy
09-08-2004, 12:27 PM
What Ruth and Janet said. They're both talking sense.

You don't have to take this rubbish. Tell the Sensei, tell your mum and dad and tell this idiot to stay the hell away.

Go well and go safely.

Matt.

Edit. I'd also agree with Greg.

suren
09-08-2004, 12:34 PM
Way to go! A strong clap to both ears at once also works perfectly :hypno: !
Seriously, talk to your sensei and this probably will stop him at least in dojo. Try not to be alone when you come and leave the dojo just for case. If this continues outside of dojo, talk to your parents and depending on his seriousness they may choose to call police. That should calm him down.

aikidoc
09-08-2004, 12:50 PM
Most dojos have sexual harassment policies in place as part of a handbook or official policy (at least they should). It sounds like this is what is making you uncomfortable. I definitely agree you should let your sensei know immediately. There is also a possibility the person does not know his behavior is offensive -not that it is an excuse. You need to immediately let the person know you find his comments offensive the next time he interacts with you.

Greg Jennings
09-08-2004, 04:11 PM
What he's been trying
Makes of him a predator
Tell Sensei ev'rything

Youth is so precious
Keep the pepper spray at hand
'Case the jerk persists

No more haiku for awhile, I promise.

Regards,

shihonage
09-08-2004, 04:17 PM
Let him know that you're 15 first.
If he persists, report him.

Otherwise, he'll be able to use the "She looked 18, your honor !" line.

MadMyndi
09-08-2004, 05:28 PM
To answer your question... no, you're not the only one this kind of stuff has happened to. I've never had to deal with it in the dojo, but in other situations, yes. School, for example. And the first time I had to deal with it I was fourteen.

Here are some strategies that I used to successfully make the person stop harassing me:
- I told the person to quit with the comments
- I told my parents
- I wrote down everything that the person said or did, in a reporting style, with dates and times. I created a paper trail, so it wasn't just my word against his. I also wrote down when I first reported the problem to my teachers, and what their response was, so that they would be responsible, as well. That meant that they couldn't just claim not to know about the problem.
- I told the people in charge of the school

I'd try these first things first.

There have also been times when I've just left a situation. That's not a fair or satisfying response, but it got me out of what I perceived to be a dangerous situation.

I'll also agree that making a point of never being alone with this person is a good one. That helps prevent the situation from becoming physical.

And speaking of physical... if you did, say, kick the guy in the balls, or pepper spray him, you could be up on assault charges or kicked out of the dojo yourself. Don't go there over comments... he's not worth it.

Finally, it's not your fault. I think you've got that, but just in case, it's not your fault.

Please let us know how this plays out for you.

Good luck,

Marguerite Nightingale

anunymis
09-08-2004, 08:38 PM
Thanx for the advice. I will tell somebody and I will stay away from this guy. I'll keep you posted.

Marc Kupper
09-09-2004, 01:16 AM
Thanx for the advice. I will tell somebody and I will stay away from this guy. I'll keep you posted.Good luck and I'll second the advice given by nearly everyone. As Marguerite Nightingale noted, please take a minute to write down a list of each time this person bothered you (date, time, place, and a description of what was done/said) plus what you have done about it (what you told others or the person) and their reaction. This will help you explain what's happening as you talk to people and will also provide a good evidence trail should that be needed.

Most likely the people you talk to (your parents, the instructor at the dojo, etc.) will be very supportive of you. If they blow you off then please talk to a teacher or administrator at school, as they will know how to get the wheels in motion to get this stopped.

It's definitely not ok that someone is bothering you.

anunymis
09-10-2004, 07:26 PM
Well I did let this guy know I was 15 and what he was doing wasn't ok and unfortunately he didn't seem to care:( I haven't told anyone yet it's really hard to. I'm not really close enough to anybody but I know I have to.

Janet Rosen
09-10-2004, 07:49 PM
Hi. Please trust me on this: you don't have to feel emotionally close to somebody to tell them about this.It is NOT a "secret" that has to be whispered about or something very unusual: What this creep is doing to you is something that creeps do to women young and old every day in every part of the world (and I'm not a manhating woman; I've been happily married to a non-creep for 25 yrs!), so it is pretty common knowledge that there are guys like this and that it is NOT YOUR FAULT.
In my experience, guys like this actually expect that you will be too embarrassed to say anything. Time to defy expectations!
Start with either the instructor you take most of your classes with or with the chief instructor (in some dojos would be same person, in some not).

anunymis
09-10-2004, 09:31 PM
Hi. Please trust me on this: you don't have to feel emotionally close to somebody to tell them about this.It is NOT a "secret" that has to be whispered about or something very unusual: What this creep is doing to you is something that creeps do to women young and old every day in every part of the world (and I'm not a manhating woman; I've been happily married to a non-creep for 25 yrs!), so it is pretty common knowledge that there are guys like this and that it is NOT YOUR FAULT.
In my experience, guys like this actually expect that you will be too embarrassed to say anything. Time to defy expectations!
Start with either the instructor you take most of your classes with or with the chief instructor (in some dojos would be same person, in some not).



I know, it still is hard though:(

aikidoc
09-10-2004, 11:28 PM
I realize you are young and this is hard, but if the guy just blew you off you need to tell someone as soon as possible. You do not know if he is a predator or whatever. At best he is an insensitive jerk. At worst he could be a pedophile. Inappropriate behavior should not be tolerated by anyone. I would talk to the sensei. He/she is responsible for the school and is in charge on the mat. I would also make sure your parents know and, if necessary, take them with you to tell the sensei.

anonymous2
09-11-2004, 03:56 AM
Your teacher would want to know. Tell him.

It's his business because it's his business and he has a right to know what's going on. Certainly, he would not want a student preying upon other students. Your teacher cares. Tell him.

BLangille
09-11-2004, 08:06 AM
Maybe it would be easier to speak to another female. Are there any senior female students or instructors you could go to?

aikidoc
09-11-2004, 10:20 AM
Brian's point is good. Other females may have also experienced this person's inappropriate behavior.

anunymis
09-11-2004, 10:33 AM
There is a female there I can tell:) It would make it easier. Good idea Brian:)

BLangille
09-11-2004, 10:48 AM
Great! Please keep us posted. Don't let some jerk ruin aikido for you. Hope everything works out.
Brian

anunymis
09-12-2004, 11:10 PM
So I finally told my sensei about what was going on. He had a meeting with the other blackbelts and dicussed this issue. After sensei confronted the guy he of course he denied it. But my sensei knew better and the guy decided to quit.:) Thanx everybody for the advice and the support;)

Marc Kupper
09-12-2004, 11:40 PM
So I finally told my sensei about what was going on. He had a meeting with the other blackbelts and dicussed this issue. After sensei confronted the guy he of course he denied it. But my sensei knew better and the guy decided to quit.:) Thanx everybody for the advice and the support;)Big :) Thats' really cool and best wishes for your training.

anunymis
09-12-2004, 11:55 PM
:D this is the most of smiled in the last week:D

Janet Rosen
09-13-2004, 06:53 AM
I'm so proud of you! Keep that positive spirit and courage on and off the mat and you'll be just fine.

ruthmc
09-13-2004, 10:25 AM
So I finally told my sensei about what was going on. He had a meeting with the other blackbelts and dicussed this issue. After sensei confronted the guy he of course he denied it. But my sensei knew better and the guy decided to quit.:) Thanx everybody for the advice and the support;)
That's fantastic news - very well done!

I'm very happy that it's all worked out for the best :D

Keep enjoying your training :)

Ruth

anunymis
09-15-2004, 09:17 PM
A few people have asked me if there's a chance this guy might bother me outside of class:( Now I'm kind of paranoid. I know I should be alert but now the slightest noise scares me. I'll hopefully get over it though. Before I scare myself to death.;)

Greg Jennings
09-15-2004, 09:23 PM
Anonymous:

Did you think my reference to pepper spray was in the context of aikido class?

Be alert...and keep the pepper spray handy.

Best regards,

suren
09-15-2004, 10:51 PM
A few people have asked me if there's a chance this guy might bother me outside of class:( Now I'm kind of paranoid. I know I should be alert but now the slightest noise scares me. I'll hopefully get over it though. Before I scare myself to death.;)

Dear Anonymous,

Try not to be paranoid about this, just for some time keep being alert, try not to be alone when you come and leave the dojo.

From his reaction I think he is pretty scared about the situation himself and want to run out of it.
Besides, if you think about it - your sensei knows who he is (name, address) and he also knows you had problem with that guy. He knows if something happens to you - he will be the first suspect. He knows you are not afraid of him because you confronted him and won the battle and you will do the same thing next time if he tries again. If he has even a little brains he will keep out.

I'm sorry for talking about that threat outside of dojo and scaring you, but I still think that was a good advice.

Hope you will forget that jerk soon and the best thing that can help with this - just enjoy your training. It's a lot of fun :D

Anonymous User
09-15-2004, 11:27 PM
Great advice everybody. But I'm still paranoid. I can't help it. And I would probably accidently spray myself with the pepper spray;) Training does keep my mind off this jerk for a little while:)

Larry John
09-16-2004, 12:35 AM
Old military trick.

Go buy yourself a whistle--preferably a really loud one like those used by referees at basketball or volleyball matches (a Fox 40 is a good example).

Put the whistle on a soft lanyard that you wear all the time (except while on the mat).

If anyone gives you reason to feel afraid, blow that whistle for all you're worth and run toward the nearest group of people.

The loud noise should freeze him for a second--may even make him go down and should attract lots of attention from bystanders. And, you can blow it as much as you need to without getting a sore throat or losing your voice.

Think of it as a form of kiai that you're using to get kuzushi so you can apply technique (run like hell) to escape.

Be Safe.

Hanna B
09-16-2004, 05:47 AM
A few people have asked me if there's a chance this guy might bother me outside of class:( Now I'm kind of paranoid.
Hey, don't be. This is the downside of bringing these things to light, although I think it is often necessary to do so: once people start talking, it all tends to get so excaggerated. The situation you described previously is not at all incommon, and from what you have told I do not see any reason to believe that the man is dangerous.

I never heard of the strategy of carrying a whistle before, but it sounds like a very good one! I used to have one by the phone, to use when I occasionally got dirty phone talks. :rolleyes: It felt a lot better after I had blown some noice straight into the guy's right ear. :D

paw
09-16-2004, 06:41 AM
Great advice everybody. But I'm still paranoid. I can't help it. And I would probably accidently spray myself with the pepper spray

You might consider reading "The Gift of Fear" by Galvin De Becker.

Regards,

Paul

Aikidoiain
09-16-2004, 08:04 AM
Down him with your forefinger. Here's how - you know that hollow just above your ribcage at the bottom of the throat, that's called the "sternal notch".

Push your finger into his sternal notch and press down as hard as you can (cut your nails first!). Midway down you'll find a bone - hook your finger under that and then pull up.

Trust me, this will floor anyone instantly. You'll leave him on the floor gagging and gasping for breath.

It's a legitimate Hapkido technique by the way.

deepsoup
09-16-2004, 02:24 PM
What extraordinarily irresponsible advice.
When you're "teaching" self defence, are you in the habit of showing this technique to 15 year old girls and leading them to believe that it'll allow them to: floor anyone instantly [and] leave him on the floor gagging and gasping for breath.
Fortunately, the original poster in this thread seems like a very smart, sensible young woman, and is undoubtedly smart enough to take your advice with a large pinch of salt.

Now I'm not in the habit of attacking people. If I were and I chose a victim who, believing your advice, thought themselves able to "floor me instantly", they'd be in for a pretty horrible surprise.

Sean
x

Aikidoiain
09-16-2004, 02:37 PM
So I take it "kicking him in the balls" as suggested by Greg Jennings is okay then?

Or, perhaps you're not familiar with the technique I suggested?!

My Hapkido instructor seemed to think it works - obviously he is wrong.


Thank you very much indeed oh great Master.

Iain.

Aikidoiain
09-16-2004, 02:47 PM
I'm glad you got it sorted without the rather irresponsible violence that was suggested - good for you!

That was very brave and mature of you. It's always best to be open about your problems with a responsible person you trust.

Iain. :ki: :)

suren
09-16-2004, 03:05 PM
Iain, do not be so inflammable. I know you have hard time but...
I can understand your passion in this case, but consider again what Sean said.
He does not say that technique does not work, he just said he does not like the idea of giving such an advice to 15 years teenager. That's his point of view which seems reasonable in the case we do not face a life threat.
Anyway, I don't think this guy is dangerous. If he were really some sort of maniac, he would not play so openly. As I understand he is 20 or close years old and I don't think this case would make him sacrifice his free life and go to jail.
And to Anonimous - I'm sure this encounter means much more to you than to him. Why should he want a revenge? What did he lose? Face? He never had one! Pride? He never had one! Ego? Yes, but the way he quit made him feel more comfortable (I denied everything. This girl just lying!) He retreated. And I do not see much reasons for him to risk going to a jail.

suren
09-16-2004, 03:08 PM
Sorry, my post seems to have a mistake... He did not lose his Ego too... Unfortunately :)

deepsoup
09-16-2004, 03:24 PM
So I take it "kicking him in the balls" as suggested by Greg Jennings is okay then?
Greg's post was an amusing haiku, a witty and poetic jest. (Ok, so maybe I'm being a bit charitable about the quality of Greg's poetry here.)
It wasn't meant to be taken entirely seriously, I suspect. If it were, then his advice would've been as stupid as yours.
My Hapkido instructor seemed to think it works - obviously he is wrong.
If he thinks it'll work reliably for a 15 year old girl, faced with an adult male assailant, then yes he is indeed wrong.
Furthermore, if he (or you) were to teach such a technique to a 15 year old girl, and lead them to believe they can use it as you suggest, he'd not only be wrong, he'd also be criminally irresponsible.

Sean
x

Aikidoiain
09-16-2004, 03:59 PM
That's funny Sean, because while I was training in Hapkido, there was indeed a girl about 14 or 15 who joined around about the same time as myself. We both graded together, and she had to demonstrate the "forefinger to sternal notch" technique on the instructor - and guess what?....he dropped to the floor just like I said. He wasn't faking it. This young girl floored an adult Hapkido instructor using this very technique.

Incidentally, if you look for a book by Hapkido Master, Fred Adams, called, "HANDS OFF! - Self-Defense for Women", you'll see just how perfectly capable women/girls are at dealing with attacks from men. In fact, some of the techniques are actually painful to look at! So, I suggest you take this issue up with the author ( who incidentally taught my instructor).

The main issue here is that the anon person got the situation resolved.....remember?

Footnote: Yet again my comments attract criticism.

Iain. :ki: :straightf :(

thomas_dixon
09-16-2004, 04:39 PM
I'm glad everything worked out in the end ^_^

deepsoup
09-16-2004, 05:40 PM
That's funny Sean, because while I was training in Hapkido, there was indeed a girl about 14 or 15 who joined around about the same time as myself. We both graded together, and she had to demonstrate the "forefinger to sternal notch" technique on the instructor - and guess what?....he dropped to the floor just like I said. He wasn't faking it. This young girl floored an adult Hapkido instructor using this very technique.
A person who can't tell the difference between a girl demonstrating a technique in a dojo with a willing uke, and a girl applying a technique successfully in the Real World [TM] has no business calling himself a "self defence instructor". "False sense of security" instructor might be more apt.

There are plenty of examples to be found in this very forum of how 'pain' controls do not work against very many assailants. Still less against assailants who may be much larger, stronger, more focussed and aggressive than their probably terrified victim. The attacker in this scenario is in a state of mind that quite possibly lends him an unbelievably high pain threshold, and you're asking the victim to remain withing 'grappling distance' while she tries to immobilise him with one finger!

Lets be charitable and say he allows her to prod away at his sternum for half a second. It might take him longer than that to notice if she broke his leg, and as soon as he moves her hand away (or interrupts her attack with an atemi of his own), whatever pain she may have managed to inflict has gone.

We all live in cloud cuckoo land to some extent. I'm certainly guilty of harbouring some silly martial arts fantasies (http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/fantasy.html) myself. Its ok, really, as long as you keep it in your own head.
But to teach someone that such a technique will reliably offer them protection is to peddle a fantasy (http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/fantasy.html) that could get them killed, and for what? A chance for the 'instructor' to indulge some egotistical macho fantasy of his own? Its unforgiveable.

There are many books on self defence which are also peddling a self defence fantasy (http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/fantasy.html). I haven't seen the book you mention, but from the cheesy title I suspect it may be just such a book. I certainly will have a leaf through it if I see a copy (unlikely, Amazon don't seem to stock it, is it out of print?) You may be right, I probably would find it painful to look at, but not necessarily for the reasons you think.

Meanwhile, why don't you have a look at http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/.
Footnote: Yet again my comments attract criticism. Indeed. This is a forum for public discussion, to post your comments here is to invite criticism. Acknowledge the truth and be free.

Sean
x

Don_Modesto
09-16-2004, 07:05 PM
You might consider reading "The Gift of Fear" by Galvin De Becker.

I second this.

The book is a contemporary classic.

It gives sound advice for dealing with unwanted attention.

It teaches you techniques for delving into your intuition--that feeling of unease that you can't quite put your finger on--and making it explicit.

It has lots of case histories and examples of how this is done.

All around excellent. Get it from your local library.

Congratulations again.

GANBATTE!

Aikidoiain
09-16-2004, 11:00 PM
Like I said Sean, you should take this issue up with Fred Adams. I didn't invent the technique. He had 16 black belts covering many styles when his book was issued, and taught the SAS. But I guess you know better.

And don't be so cheeky and quick to judge either. I've used the technique in fights and it works as a strike too, so there! Don't question my credentials again!

Go away....
Iain. :ki: :disgust:

Aikidoiain
09-16-2004, 11:26 PM
Just kidding......you can come back now Sean. I'm sorry for being me. :crazy: :crazy: :sorry: :sorry:

Don't listen to a word I say. I don't know what I'm talking about. :crazy: :crazy:


Iain. - :ki: :sorry: :square:

Aikidoiain
09-17-2004, 05:10 AM
To Sean,


Finally, just to let you know, that I only teach Self-Defense to my friends, most of whom are over 35. Secondly, I would never dream of teaching anyone who -

1. I didn't know. and....

2. Was under this age.

And also just for the record - I also teach friends who already do other Martial Arts, yet still regard my teaching as valid.

I still think you have a bone to pick with Hapkido Master, Fred Adams, about his teaching methods. I'm sure someone on this site must have heard of him. He's well respected in the MA community - but like I said, if you know better, perhaps you should advise him. I would watch though - I've heard he is not a man who takes kindly to criticism.

Take care,
Iain. :ki: :)

PeterR
09-17-2004, 06:23 AM
Sean wont say this but I will.

I met Sean while he was training in Japan and have seen him do full resistance randori the Tomiki way (you know those tapes you watched) with some of the worlds best. He's tough, dynamic and still level headed enough to understand what he does and doesn't know, what he can and can not do.

His comments are spot on.

Aikidoiain
09-17-2004, 07:08 AM
I have no formal qualifications in Aikido.

The only person I don't respect in this forum is myself. I meant no offense to Sean. I still think he should check out Fred Adams though.

I am at the lowest rung of the ladder, as you know, so just ignore my comments in future.

Thanks,
Iain. - :ki: :)

Greg Jennings
09-17-2004, 10:07 AM
Greg's post was an amusing haiku, a witty and poetic jest. (Ok, so maybe I'm being a bit charitable about the quality of Greg's poetry here.)
Three things:

1. My original comment was when the issue was was inappropriate and unwelcome conversation on the mat. Maybe I'm a barbarian, (I'm also the father of a gorgeous 9 year old daughter), but kicking a 20-something year old knowingly hitting on a 15 year old in the 'nads in the dojo with people around would make me happy as a way of calling attention to the issue.

The issue is now a concern for stalking outside the dojo. It is a very different situation.

2. The point of the first poem was to "Tell Sensei Everything". She did and the immediate issue at that time was resolved.

3. The second part of the second poem warned Anonymous that the jerk might persist. I mentioned pepper spray not as a first-line response, but to have as a last-ditch "ace in the hole". When my daughter starts going places with friends rather than Dad, I'll make sure that she is equipped in just that way.

The whistle idea sounds good as a first response. I do think it needs something to back it up.

Best,

thomas_dixon
09-18-2004, 02:19 AM
I agree you should be wary of the guy outside the dojo, not so much to where you are paranoid, but to where you are on a safe level. Not all people follow good logic or morals, and there are some crazy people in the world, it's be best to be safe.

Aikidoiain
09-18-2004, 10:32 AM
I have no formal qualifications in Aikido.

I'll maybe take Greg's advice and express myself in poetry - I used to be a good poet. :)

As for my Hapkido instructor....well, I still say you should speak to Sensei Fred Adams on that one, afterall he did teach him it.

Iain. - :ki:

Anonymous User
09-18-2004, 06:48 PM
Thankyou all for the advice:) I'm still paranoid but theres no changing that especially since I've seen this guy twice at two different stores which was a little scary. But maybe I will start carrying around a whistle;)

Larry John
09-18-2004, 08:41 PM
I agree wholeheartedly with Greg that the whistle (or some other handy noisemaker that can make the guy's ears bleed) is only a first step. It's just a quick way to slow him down and alert others to the fact that there's something going on.

Tell your parents and other adults you trust that you're concerned and ask them to talk with the police. The police can then make a courtesy call on this person to let him know that he's become a person of interest to them, and that if anything ever happens to you, they'll come looking for him first.

p00kiethebear
09-21-2004, 04:31 AM
From the sound of it, the person in question does not sound violent, however.

Should he make any more "passes" at you or continue to make you feel uncomfortable, it is NOT unreasonable to apply for a restraining order. Do what must be done for you to feel as comfortable in this situation as you can.

Hanna B
09-21-2004, 07:06 AM
Get a whistly if it makes you feel good... as already said it is a first step of self defence, and I see no reason to believe that you need a second or a third one. Probably the situation is solved now, you did fine! Be happy about that. If it turns out there still is a problem after all... I would take care of that later.

thomas_dixon
09-21-2004, 06:32 PM
I really wouldn't be too afraid if you see the guy around, unless he waits for you to come out, follows you around, or if he lives far enough away to make you suspicious what hes doing in that part of town. But still...you gotta be safe :)

David_francis
09-22-2004, 09:06 AM
buy an air horn theyre louder :) be sure to point it at his face