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daniel loughlin
09-06-2004, 10:18 AM
iv you got into a fight what would you do fight or use aikido? i know the obvious answer 2 this is going to be use aikido because whats the point of learning it iv u dont use it. but im scared what iv it dosent work? what then? haas any1 every used it and succeded? or failled?

Nick Simpson
09-06-2004, 10:25 AM
Dont get into fights. Talk the other party out of it if possible. Run if not. If you have no chance of avoiding it then forget about doing aikido technique, just try to get hit as little as possible and let your movement put you into a favourable position to end the conflict. If you can apply it, sankyo seems to work well, apart from that the principle of irimi is also fairly effective in the right situation.

daniel loughlin
09-06-2004, 10:42 AM
If you have no chance of avoiding it then forget about doing aikido technique, situation.
forget about techniques bt why?

Nick Simpson
09-06-2004, 10:51 AM
There are two many variable factors in a real fight that arent acounted for in dojo practise, plus its extremly hard to try and apply a technique onto someone who resists fully and is trying to attack you properly. Move first, try and respond later, your movement dictates what (if indeed any) techniques you will get, not the other way around, forcing a technique in a fight is very likely to end in a beating for yourself. Perhaps some of the more experianced folks around here can explain better? Personally if you have to fight, your best bet is usually to do the simplest thing: Keep your gaurd up, your head down, dont stay still and try and hurt the other guy more than he hurts you.

DaveO
09-06-2004, 10:55 AM
Daniel: Read this site: No Nonsense Self Defense (http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/), in particular this page. (http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/MAandSD.htm)

My answer: If you get into a 'fight'; your aikido isn't going to help you a bit. From a physical standpoint; aikido is effective for defense; not fighting.
Furthermore; even if it's a defensive situation, you're going to get into serious trouble trying to 'do aikido' on someone; it just doesn't work that way. Only when the lessons aikido teaches have been learned so well that they're ingrained into the subconcious (i.e.you don't need to think about them; they just happen) and the same applies to basic defensive practices will you be able to 'use aikido' for self-defense.
However; its value is far greater than just being able to deflect an attack. Aikido can help in giving you the life skills required to not encounter a dangerous situation in the first place.

Read that page - I'm serious.

markwalsh
09-06-2004, 11:05 AM
You live in Manchester, use a gun like evryone else.
That was a joke. Nicks's advice seems good to me.

daniel loughlin
09-06-2004, 11:19 AM
thanx for the advise any more will be welcomed with opened arms

dan guthrie
09-06-2004, 11:27 AM
Daniel: Read this site: No Nonsense Self Defense (http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/), in particular this page. (http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/MAandSD.htm)

My answer: If you get into a 'fight'; your aikido isn't going to help you a bit. From a physical standpoint; aikido is effective for defense; not fighting.
Furthermore; even if it's a defensive situation, you're going to get into serious trouble trying to 'do aikido' on someone; it just doesn't work that way. Only when the lessons aikido teaches have been learned so well that they're ingrained into the subconcious (i.e.you don't need to think about them; they just happen) and the same applies to basic defensive practices will you be able to 'use aikido' for self-defense.
However; its value is far greater than just being able to deflect an attack. Aikido can help in giving you the life skills required to not encounter a dangerous situation in the first place.

Read that page - I'm serious.

Great link! Does this mean I'm invulnerable now or will it take a few more weeks? :D

I haven't read the whole page, yet but I will.

MikeFTrevino
09-06-2004, 12:31 PM
I've only been studying aikido for a few months now, but I can tell you, use the principals of aikido and you"ll be OK.
Apparently I've been using aikido my whole life. I've talked my way out of fights. I've avoided situations that may have escalated into a fight. I've even used the almost failsafe technique anyone can use in a fight, RUN! (It's always good to be in running shape. Four years of military training and living taught me this)

If a fight is inevitable, then do what you have to do to escape the situation with the least amount of damage. As my favorite squad leader once told me, " Get your licks in, then get the hell outa Dodge."

Nick Simpson
09-06-2004, 02:48 PM
Hehe, good advice guys, specially yours Mark! Will I see you on saturday for the 25th aniversary of white rose course?

Infamousapa
09-06-2004, 03:33 PM
I dont know why a lot of you people think aikido is being a coward and running away..If thats the case just practice on your sprinting skills so you guys could be heavily scolded and just run away..Aikido teaches you to confront your enemy and obstacles in your life..Running away does not help unless the situation escalated to extreme measures..In a real fight if your good and confident in your Aikido of course you should use it(True Victory is Victory Over Oneself)meaning dont let your emotions take over you..If you control yourself then your in a position to control others..I dont know about you guys but over here in L.A if you run away from a fight than your going to get picked on until you show that you could hold your own..

Suru
09-06-2004, 04:04 PM
I once told my 28 year old big brother that he wouldn't have a chance if he picked a fight with Saotome Sensei. My brother, who is incredibly strong, said there was no way in hell some sixty or seventy year old man would stand a chance against him. I know Saotome, or any Aikido master, would effortlessly take my brother's balance, rendering his muscles useless, and pin or repeatedly throw him.

Until one has done Aikido very intensely and for very long, I think Aikido techniques can be tried but not solely relied upon in a fight.

Also, my brother gave me a reverse bear-hug once, just playing around. So I decided to play around. I grabbed his hand and ducked under his arm, applying sankyo. Instead of walking backwards like the pain was telling him to do, he kept fighting it and eventually came all the way around forwards. He simply wasn't going to submit. For the next week his wrist was sore. In the dojo, uke follows the path upon which he is guided. In a real fight, there is always the chance that the attacker will take the pain and injury in order to keep nage from executing the technique.

Drew

MikeFTrevino
09-06-2004, 06:49 PM
I dont know why a lot of you people think aikido is being a coward and running away..If thats the case just practice on your sprinting skills so you guys could be heavily scolded and just run away..
I don't think anyone here would fault a person from running away from a bad situation. Nor would I title them a coward.
Aikido teaches you to confront your enemy and obstacles in your life..Running away does not help unless the situation escalated to extreme measures..
From what I've have read in books and on the net, Aikido teaches alot of things and different people come away having learned different things. From personal experience, If you've watched a situation escalate, you've already stayed too long. Why confront a potentialy harmful/deadly situation if you don't have to?
In a real fight if your good and confident in your Aikido of course you should use it(True Victory is Victory Over Oneself)meaning dont let your emotions take over you..If you control yourself then your in a position to control others..
Does Daniel sound confident?
I dont know about you guys but over here in L.A if you run away from a fight than your going to get picked on until you show that you could hold your own..
I would hazzard a guess you're still going to school. I will tell you somthing I'm sure you've heard before. The world of school is not life. It is a bad characature of life with many safegaurds. The way you behave in school may not and mostly will not work in adult life. i.e. Fighting because if you don't you'll be "picked" on. In reality if you're in a fight, consider it a life and death situation. If you can't get out of it for whatever reason, be it someone you care for is in danger or you are left no out, then I wish you the best of luck, and yes confidence and a facade of confidence if you dont have some, will help you. But, if the powers that be have left you an out, take it. Pride and ego are not worth hospitalization.
O'sensei has been was known to dodge bullets but I believe even he refused some marksmen recognizing their expertise.

stuartjvnorton
09-06-2004, 06:52 PM
lol

So fighting because you're afraid of looking like a coward is not cowardly in itself?

Amassus
09-06-2004, 09:19 PM
In a real fight, there is always the chance that the attacker will take the pain and injury in order to keep nage from executing the technique.

This is why taking BALANCE as well as applying a lock is important, your brother could not have come around on you had he been in the process of falling.

As for the initial post. Hell, I'd do what came naturally at the time, I can't say if my body knows the techniques of aikido well enough to act when I see an opening.
I would strike, kick, put on a wrist lock, whatever presents itself. No time to think in a fight.

Of course this is just one opinion :)

Suru
09-06-2004, 10:34 PM
This is why taking BALANCE as well as applying a lock is important, your brother could not have come around on you had he been in the process of falling.

Of course this is just one opinion :)

You're right Dean, if I could've cut him down immediately after administering sankyo, I could've pinned him. However, we were in a narrow part of the kitchen and if I cut him downward, his head would've stricken the counter. Aikido is best suited to open-area arenas. Or at least that goes for the Aikido I've been taught.

Drew

xuzen
09-06-2004, 11:49 PM
iv you got into a fight what would you do fight or use aikido? i know the obvious answer 2 this is going to be use aikido because whats the point of learning it iv u dont use it. but im scared what iv it dosent work? what then? haas any1 every used it and succeded? or failled?

Pepper spray, tazer gun are good self defense equipment. Go get them if you want to have an upper hand in SD. Very easy to learn, not too expensive, legal in some countries. Aikido and most martial art takes years of serious learning and conditioning to be effective. Despite that it doesn't guarantee 100% victory. There, the easiest answer to your question above.

The same analogy can be applied to learning how to play a guitar. I can argue, why learn how to play a guitar when i can buy a computer software, program it to sound like a guitar and play Santana tunes without ever learning the guitar and yet sound like him. Why? Because it is, fun and it enriches one's soul and life.

Wrt to real life self defense... this just happened recently, I had an stand off with a junkie. I operate a pharmacy, and next to my premise is a state sanctioned out-patient narcotic rehab centre. Just the other day, a particular junkie came in to ask me for some prescription drug sans prescription of course. He was somewhat 'persistent', after some explanation that I not sell such medicine over the counter he lingered in my shop. Maybe it was the body language that set off my alarm bells, I can sense he was in desperation and wanted to shoplift from my shop. I intervened, I asked him to leave. He said that he has every right to be there and he hasn't done anything wrong. I told him sternly that this is private property and he is considered a trespasser. There was some tense moments as he was adamant to stay at my premise just to spite me. I had to react appropriately.

The outcome was he left reluctantly. There was no physical treatment, which it might have been if he continued to be persistent. The point I want to make is as an Aikido practitioner, I believe my training has made be mentally stronger. Although there was no physical intervention, there was a mental war going on between us. You know, the extremely stern look, the focused eyes. The indomitable spirit, that kind of thing. These kind of things that one cultivate through persistent training in one's chosen MA. I had to convince him without resorting to physical treatment that he must leave my premise, and that takes serious mental conditioning.

Daniel, not all confrontation need to end with physical intervention. I can guarantee you that by picking up MA, it gives also condition your mind, spirit and heart (feelings) to be strong. If you failed in your mental war with your adversary, and need to resort to physical intervention, then you can always have pepper spray, tazer etc to fall back on.

My rant. Sorry folks should I have gone out of topic, just assume it as a fool's rattle.

Boon.

Infamousapa
09-07-2004, 12:26 AM
IIf i offended anyone I am sorry,But the subject of this topic was If one was in a fight(key word)what would one do...(Daniel Loughlin )words.And half of you responded with running.I understand if there is weapons involved but that wasnt the question..As in respond to Daniels question me myself am not so confident in my Aikido yet so I would protect my self and if in a fight I would attack but if the situation during the fight rings up a move I could use Aikido on I would do it..What im trying to say is I would mix my Aikido with what else I know..

Aikilove
09-07-2004, 01:37 AM
Tony, real life situations very often involves weapons (specially in the US).

stuartjvnorton
09-07-2004, 01:39 AM
I know it's kinda cheesy, but if you don't fight, you both win.
The only problem is trying to convince the other guy of that without smacking him upside the head... ;-)

DaveO
09-07-2004, 01:52 AM
Tony; this is one of those areas in which you have to be precise about what you're talking about; there is too wide a range of misconception and misunderstanding surrounding self defence to generalize. In a case like this; generalizing can get a person into a lot of trouble.
In this case; Daniel used the word 'fight'. I assume he meant 'defense situation' but couldn't take the chance, so gave the answer I did.
Just so we're clear about where I'm coming from; this is my definition of fighting:
If you're in a fight; it's your fault. OK; the other guy might have 'started it' (tell me how many times I've heard that :rolleyes: ); but if you're fighting; it means you've accepted the challenge he offered and are now fighting back. You are therefore breaking the law.
More importantly for our purposes; you are also neutralizing any effectiveness aikido might have - it's a defensive art; not a fighting art.
Now; please don't think I'm picking on you, Tony; I doubt your post actually offended anyone; certainly not me. :) But; there's some of those misconceptions in your post; and I'd like to address them.
I dont know why a lot of you people think aikido is being a coward and running away
FWIW; I agree - aikido is not about 'running away'. What it is about is using the best response for a given situation. The question is, 'what is the best response?' While it might be tempting to use our brilliant aikido skills and ikkyo someone into the ground; 99.99% of the time; withdrawal is the best response. Why? Think of any defensive situation you can imagine. Make it somewhat realistic; no ninjas jumping out of bushes, please. Think of a drunk in a bar; or some dude getting in yo' face. Think of the bully in school, the guy looking too obviously casual on the streetcorner, the person coming towards you in the parking lot. Ask yourself: 1)'What will happen if I confront this person? 2)What will happen if I avoid this person?' In the vast majority of cases; the answers will be thus: 1)He's looking for trouble/action, and you're not; he's ready and shaken out and you're not. He's not going to attack unless he believes he can get away with it so if he does attack; you can bet he's got the advantage over you. Fighting in this case is silly; or perhaps I should say tactically unwise. It is also, as noted above, illegal - and if it turns violent; rest assured you will be talking to the cops. Translation: odds are less than one in five you'll come out on top of the deal. 2)By walking away; you're doing the most valuable defense-related activity you can: you're creating distance. This has two major advantages: a) If he wants you; he's going to have to come to where you are. This gives you time to prepare if withdrawal no longer becomes an option; gives you more space to run if it is an option, and gives him time to change his mind - either call it off or look for someone else. b) by withdrawing; you've established an important legal claim to self defense - he cannot lay claim to self-defense if he was obviously - and in the presence of witnesses - moving in to attack. This is a very important tactical consideration.
The withdrawal option does not mean to run away; though that is one kind of withdrawal - one I personally won't hesitate to use if things go south too quickly. It means many things; depending on circumstance. You can just cross the street, or change direction in the parking lot. You can turn around and walk away from the 'in yo' face' dude. You can give the drunk in the bar clear space to go by. That kind of thing.
So when you get right down to it; I can think of 100 good reasons for avoiding confrontation - but I can't think of one where fighting is preferrable.

Next; this:
(True Victory is Victory Over Oneself)
Masakatsu Agatsu is a very deep, profound philosophy. It takes a great deal of thought, soul-searching and understanding to know what it means. To be blunt; your interpretation - controlling your emotions - barely scratches the surface and has little bearing on it.
I'd strongly recommend you study it more thoroughly; it will greatly help you in your study of aikido.

Xuzen wrote:Pepper spray, tazer gun are good self defense equipment. Go get them if you want to have an upper hand in SD. Very easy to learn, not too expensive, legal in some countries.
I liked Xuzen's post; it was very well written and thought out...except this line. :) Cops use both pepper spray and taser to great effect; but not for defensive purposes. This is because they're not defensive weapons. They're non-lethal; that's not exactly the same thing. They're immobilization devices - they stun a suspect and drop him; both with debilitating pain and in the case of the spray; possible temporary blindness.
They're not useful for defense for two reasons: 1)They have to be readied. In the time it takes you to get it out of your pocket/purse, arm it (or pull the little pin) and raise it; a genuine attacker will be all over you - you'll go down long before you ever get a chance to use it. If you do have time to ready the weapon; that time could be better spent on more profitable activities - like getting the heck out of there. 2) They have to be aimed. In other words; you could miss. Considering what surprise and adrenaline dump tends to do to a person's fine motor skills and reactions; the possibility of missing is higher than people would like to think. In other words - oopsie; guess that little thingy ain't gonna help you like you thought it would. ;)

Drew wrote: In a real fight, there is always the chance that the attacker will take the pain and injury in order to keep nage from executing the technique.
Good point; let me modify it a bit. It's not much of a chance; he will. Pain isn't a very good motivator when the attacker isn't feeling any - one of the primary effects of adrenaline is pain suppression. That's why wrist techniques don't make good controls. Also consider some people have a high pain tolerance; like myself. I have a very high tolerance; given the condition what's left of my body is in; I've had a lot of time to build up resistance to pain. So a very good point; clarified a little. :)
Drew also wrote:
Aikido is best suited to open-area arenas.
Actually; had he been a genuine attacker rather than someone you didn't want to harm; bouncing him off the counter would've been very effective; wouldn't it? I remember a funny line that said "Aikido is the art of hitting people with planets". The same could be said for some of the things stuck to the planet. ;)
Or at least that goes for the Aikido I've been taught.
So - you've identified a potential weakness within your defense. What do you do about it? :)
That's the great thing about aikido - all sorts of possibilities for giving yourself homework. ;)

Cheers!

Natasha Bradley
09-07-2004, 02:41 AM
A friend of a friend of mine runs to keep fit. One day while out walking she was attacked. She managed to get clear and started to run. She just kept going until she had completely outrun him and got to safety.
I certainly agree that Aikido teaches you to confront your problems/enemies, but also when to retreat or let things go.

Natasha.

Matt Molloy
09-07-2004, 02:47 AM
Drew also wrote:Aikido is best suited to open-area arenas.

Actually; had he been a genuine attacker rather than someone you didn't want to harm; bouncing him off the counter would've been very effective; wouldn't it? I remember a funny line that said "Aikido is the art of hitting people with planets". The same could be said for some of the things stuck to the planet. ;)

:D

Totally agree. Couldn't see the problem myself with bouncing someone off the furniture, unless of course you were going to damage the furniture in which case it's understandable. :D

Cheers,

Matt.

shihonage
09-07-2004, 03:03 AM
iv you got into a fight what would you do fight or use aikido? i know the obvious answer 2 this is going to be use aikido because whats the point of learning it iv u dont use it. but im scared what iv it dosent work? what then? haas any1 every used it and succeded? or failled?

When you know and understand Aikido, there's no separation between the two choices, and thus, this question becomes irrelevant.

If your Aikido happens to limit you to a certain number of responses, then your Aikido has to expand until it doesn't limit you anymore.

graham butt
09-07-2004, 03:06 AM
Do whatever comes naturally, I find that in fights your instincts are the best thing to work with, first instinct should be RUN!!! The last of Sun Tzu's Thirty six strategies is as follows "Run away to fight another day"

Beau
09-07-2004, 07:39 AM
Daniel,
I personally believe that confidence in abilities comes directly from the way you train. Training in the basics are no doubt extremely important. A piano player must learn the notes on the keyboard before playing Beethoven. However, even if one plays "Mary had a little lamb" every day, with the upmost of intensity and concentration, it is unfair to expect them to play a page of Chopin right on the spot.
If you wish to gain confidence in your abilities, I suggest that you train more intensely towards your goals. Begin strength training, Start a high intensity running program (so that you can be confident that you won't become so winded during an encounter that you cannot continue to fight back) Study application of atemi waza in technique, stay after with a partner and work on defenses from various attacks (with sensei's permission of course =0)
With confidence in your abilities running/or talking your way out of a conflict will not be such a big deal. Especially if you are doing it for YOUR ATTACKER'S safety. However, confidence will allow you to stay calm in those situations where running is not an option.
I do not think that training to be formitable is all that bad if done for the right reasons. Should you want to be able to go around and beat everyone up...of course not. Should you feel comfortable walking your wife out of a nightclub to your car...I would think so...especially if you are training in a martial art whos founder declared "Aikido is first and foremost Budo".
Just my 1/50th of a dollar...hope this helps =0)
Beau

SeiserL
09-07-2004, 08:41 AM
IMHO, prevent a fight if possible. If not, fight. Don't think, don't follow, just fight.

We fight how we train. Very few people in Aikido ever train with the intensity and intent close to the streets.

Training is not sparring. Sparring is not fighting. Fighting is not combat. Each has a different intent, intensity, and rules (or lack of) engagement.

David_francis
09-07-2004, 10:33 AM
Hmmm if i were to get in a fight now i think id use more boxing than aikido as i dont know too much and what i do know, im not very good at applying. Ahwell im still a beginner, maybe id throw in a few aikido moves if they gave me an opening.

Wilbo
09-07-2004, 04:22 PM
Although I am only a beginner at Aikido Id have to say I would disagree with a fair few people here. Id say that Ive used my Aikido quite a lot in 'self-defense', just not in the obvious Irimi-Nage style way! Its more been when someone has tried to take a hold of me for whatever reason I have used the various hold escapes (turning my own hand over theirs) to make them let go (this has mainly been when friends have been trying to force me to do stuff!). I also once got grabbed by a semi-friend and put into an arms behind my back, his hands on my neck style hold, from which I did an escape that I had seen in the book Aikido and the Dynamic Sphere! He was most shocked that I had escaped so easily and I simply walked away.

Has any technique (e.g. Ikkyo) ever worked for me? No, but Ive not needed to try, but the escapes and the learning of distances (ma-ai?) has helped me a lot in various situations.

:ai: :ki: :do:

Suru
09-07-2004, 07:01 PM
"Aikido is first and foremost Budo".
Just my 1/50th of a dollar...hope this helps =0)
Beau

Biller Sensei, I think that's worth more than 2 pence! I agree with you and O'Sensei that Aikido is budo, a way of halting the thrusting spear. Your comments are captivating, honest, and insightful. The piano metaphor perfectly describes the situation at hand. You seem like you've been doing Aikido for quite a while! I'm going to write you a pm, Biller Sensei.

Drew

Nick Simpson
09-08-2004, 02:41 AM
Will, Being grabbed by friends/semi friends sounds more like goofing around/playfighting than a real dangerous self defence situation, Id be very surprised if some grabbed your hand or attempted to put you in a arm/shoulder lock in a "real" fight. I have went for someones hand once but the guy wasnt attacking me, he was trying to open a girlfriends purse at the table we were sitting at in a nightclub, I slammed my hand down onto his, pinning it onto the table top, it was a reaction but it worked because it embarrassed him in front of a dozen people or so and he left, but it also wasnt a grab...

daniel loughlin
09-08-2004, 09:07 AM
thanks for the advise guys although im @ school and we cant carry taser guns or peper spray funnyly enough and unfortunately im not the fastest runner in the world lol but im sure some of the advise will be very handy (btw dave iv never been in a real fight but usualy when some1 hits me theyy just go away iv i dont retaliate)

David_francis
09-08-2004, 09:18 AM
Ah i see, you let them hit you?? Well if you've never been in a real fight i dont think you realise sometimes you have no choice but to retaliate. When i get in a real fight which i usually avoid without hesitation, i fight to win by any means necessary.

markwalsh
09-08-2004, 10:16 AM
"Any means necessary".

Would you use a nearby baby as a club? :crazy: Would you force them to watch Big Brother till they died of boredom. That's sick dude!

Actual point: Everyone has their limits.

"win"

I'm of the opinion that when there's violence nobody wins. Though I agree its best to loose less ;)

David: Mumsey lives by St Ives so I'll probably see you next time I'm visiting and pop in on Sensei Hemmings. Good luck with the Donavon Waite course btw.

Mark

Wilbo
09-08-2004, 10:55 AM
Id be very surprised if some grabbed your hand or attempted to put you in a arm/shoulder lock in a "real" fight.

You often see one person grabbing/reaching for the other by the throat/shirt while trying to punch with the other hand, and Ive had people shouting things like "oi dont walk off!" grab at me a few times.

My point is, the techniques I learnt in Aikido that I know I would use are the grab breaks. I think these are the most important 'self-defense' we learn in Aikido technique wise, as it enables you to run away, even if someone is trying to stop you.

billybob
09-08-2004, 11:14 AM
hurt them and then run like hell.

then celebrate your survival - then reflect and be critical of yourself!!!! you just risked your survival and your freedom (risk of incarceration).

did you spit on that person's shoes? did you smack his girlfriend in the rear? or like myself, were you just being a jerk?

avoid trouble. i advise myself more than the rest of you!!!

billybob

daniel loughlin
09-08-2004, 12:22 PM
hu me i didnt du anything theres just plenty of diks luk for a fight @ my school and i wish pepper spray was legal hehehe (laf trails away) :)

Nick Simpson
09-08-2004, 01:08 PM
Yeah I spose Will, I think id just let them grab my shirt though and break their nose, more likely to work than a nikkyo or even just breaking their grip.

daniel loughlin
09-08-2004, 02:16 PM
Should you feel comfortable walking your wife out of a nightclub to your car...
Beau
im only 14 beau lol bt good advise ;) thanx

Beau
09-08-2004, 02:34 PM
Daniel,
Sorry about the wife comment...hehehe I didn't realize your age. Thats wonderful that you are training so young. I also began at around your age, kept me out of trouble all through my high school and college years. (Also bailed me out a few times!!)

Lifes hard so train harder,
Beau

Nick Simpson
09-08-2004, 04:18 PM
In some ways I wish Id found aikido when I was a lot younger, My teenage years would have been a lot more productive and probably not as messy :crazy:

Tennessee Mike
09-08-2004, 07:11 PM
Nothing wrong with using whatever fighting skills that you are confident with at the time. What does the person who decided to attack you need to learn. How to walk away without fighting? How to take a punch? How to fall and get pinned? Just because you can fight doesn't mean you have to and just because you are training in aikido doesn't mean you only use its techniques while risking your safety in a fight you can't avoid. Sometimes it is better to take a hit and let the law deal with the attacker. When your life is in danger then you do whatever you need to survive.

daniel loughlin
09-09-2004, 12:27 PM
:p thats ok beau most ppl r older than me here and every1 is in my dojo now im in the adult class bt its gd cause i get 2 train with more experiencend ppl :D thanx for your advise (iv been training sice i was 8) :ai: :ki: :do:

daniel loughlin
09-09-2004, 01:02 PM
Sorry Jun its a bad habbit that I will stop :) please forgive me (what belt are you by the way)

Nick Simpson
09-09-2004, 02:23 PM
Unless im mistaken Daniel, jun is a person :p As mr miyagi says "canvas, $2.99, belt only hold up trousers!" or something like that :)

Ron Tisdale
09-09-2004, 03:03 PM
Hi Daniel,

In the circles I travel in, it is considered very rude to ask someone their rank like that. Just so's you know. Personally, I never mention mine on the internet...here we discuss ideas, opinions, facts when we can get 'em. The rank is kind of off-topic...

Ron

suren
09-09-2004, 03:20 PM
The rank is kind of off-topic...

Unfortunately that's not always the case and as I understand a similar question asked in a demanding and rude manner pushed away some high ranked people from this forum. :mad:

David_francis
09-09-2004, 03:45 PM
Hey mark yeah you should come to the seminar itd be good to see someone new. By any means necessary means id do what id have to do to win like use elbows, teeth, kick to the nuts whatever lol swinging babies or watching big brother isnt my style though

David_francis
09-09-2004, 04:24 PM
Today my friends told me that they got attacked at the cinema for no reason whatsoever. There was about 20 attackers and only 4 of them, my friends said that they wished i was there and that i could have sorted them out. But that got me thinking what on earth could i do to 20 people theyd smother me then beat me to a bloody pulp. I could probably take down a few but no way 20 of them.
Funny thing is i couldnt go to the cinema with them because i had aikido practise heehee so aikido saved my butt. Another thing one of my friends recently had an operation on his leg making him unable to walk or run very fast and he was the main victim, the one they picked on most. I actually wish i had been there, I sure as hell wouldnt have let them pick on him even if they did beat me up, because his leg is still healing if they did do something it might mess it all up and hed have to go in for another operation.
They attacked another of my friends and shoved a marker pen in his face trying to make him sniff it, goddamn sickos :yuck: just shows how easy it would be to apply a technique on that, dissarm someone with a marker pen hehe.
Thankfully none of my friends were seriously hurt, just shooken up a bit, made me think about it, so i thought id post it up here.

billybob
09-10-2004, 06:57 AM
being in school is rough. it's rough here in corporate america - the sicko stuff is more subtle.

should one crush one's enemies and be king of the mountain? should one be the sidekick of another who is powerful for protection? should one join a 'gang' for mutual protection?

or should one find peace inside and try to live in harmony with the world? i have chosen the latter, because the others failed miserably!!!! and when i look within myself i find an angry child. i will continue to train, and i thank god the worst i ever did was put a kid in the hospital with broken ribs. i search for a better way. anyone else?

billybob

Ron Tisdale
09-10-2004, 07:21 AM
Unfortunately that's not always the case and as I understand a similar question asked in a demanding and rude manner pushed away some high ranked people from this forum. :mad:

When one sets oneself up as a public teacher, a representative example of the art, and makes statements that are contrary to established facts (or at least a shading of those facts), one can expect to have their qualifications questioned. In that case, those qualifications provide a context for the public information provided.

I have not noticed Jun doing any of the above...so in this context, asking about his rank would be considered rude, in my opinion.

In the example I believe you are thinking about, the situation was quite different. The inability to see that is telling. That said, I was not totally comfortable viewing the exchange, but was more surprised by the reaction. Especially since the subject had made statements to the effect of how zen teachers could be quite ascerbic in their methods of instruction. I would think that would develop a thicker skin...

Best,
Ron

daniel loughlin
09-10-2004, 11:13 AM
i meant no offense it was only a question so sorry if iv'e offended anyone forgive me for my lack of knowledge :blush: :sorry: :sorry: :sorry: :sorry: :( :(

Ron Tisdale
09-10-2004, 11:22 AM
Hey no biggie...just file it under stupid things people over 30 told you once...some years from now it may come in handy. :)

Best,
Ron

daniel loughlin
09-10-2004, 11:32 AM
sorry im not very experienced as u can tell i didnt know i was just curious

Nick Simpson
09-10-2004, 04:35 PM
Life is about learning, if not then why bother?

bruce bryan
09-13-2004, 02:21 AM
In aikido, like many martial arts, we learn the basics in idealised set patterns, 'sh'te grabs uke's left wrist; must have right leg forward' or 'Sh'te only attacks shomen uchi with the left arm so Uke can turn to the right'; 'Uke will apply this or that control' etc, etc. These idealised patterns are far removed from real encounter situations. It is vitally important to also study and learn the real Oyo, or application of learned techniques, as the real application more often than not, is far removed from the actual basic technique learned in the dojo.
Whilst Aikido teaches harmony, respect and to always look for a non violent conclusion to an encounter, life is ugly and getting uglier, and there should be no more shame in defending oneself as there is in running from an encounter. One must use the 'right tool for the job', but the tools need to be in the box to begin with. To be confident in your Aikido techniques takes a lot of hard repetative dojo training, but that training must include 'Bar room' application if ever the student is to become confident in their skills should the proverbial hit the fan.

Tamarack
09-13-2004, 03:39 AM
Hello all,

There is always the argument that the more you learn martial arts, the more you may want to go out and use it...

( http://www.wattstapes.com/dobson.htm )

I don't think we can ever know what's coming. Whether we're going to find ourselves in a fight that can't be avoided, whether we're going to always be able to talk our way out, what we have to prepare for.

It's most often my own aggression I need saving from. My choice (though sometimes I loose the plot and forget I am making a choice!) to react in indignancy, defensiveness, or righteousness.

As per bullying, the people I see receiving the least grief are the ones who don't rise to the challenge.

That said : there are no one-size-fits-all answers to that mislead, vague word "fight"!

billybob
09-13-2004, 08:45 AM
what do i do when the 'fight' is backstabbing b.s. here at work? this job is like a dysfunctional family. playing favorites and hurting each other - 'intriguing' is the way people seem to like to live.

i know the answer to my question though - apply aikido to my inner life. ouch.

billybob

Drew Mailman
08-04-2007, 09:24 PM
In Mitsugi Saotome's book Aikido and the Harmony of Nature, he recounts a conversation that he had with O'sensei about Musashi Miyamoto, where O'sensei said :

"I think the reason that Musashi repelled and survived the threat of death so many times was due to the fact that he not only knew how to win, but also knew when not to fight. By not fighting, he freely admitted defeat. He often claimed that many of his victories were largely determined by luck. He knew his limitations. He had been on both sides of the fence."

Know your limitations. If you can't fight, or shouldn't, then run. If you can't run, defend yourself. Figure out what you would do in certain situations so you always have a mental plan to run on.

Roman Kremianski
08-04-2007, 11:41 PM
Did you really need to bump this?

Jesus.

Drew Mailman
08-05-2007, 04:33 AM
God no.

Eight hours later and I realize the thread is from three years ago... Doh.

Guess that's what I get for using the "search" function. :drool:

gregg block
08-09-2007, 06:12 PM
If you are well trained in the martial arts instinct should take over. It could make you run or fight. Thinking about what you are going to do probrably won't even take place. I had two somewhat serious confrontations that come to mind. I can't tell you exactly what I did or didn't do but on both occasions I was standing and they were not. Your post seems to imply you have time to decide what you are going to do the reality is most of the time you don't . If you do have time to decide the fight could and should be avoided entirely.

jennifer paige smith
08-09-2007, 07:39 PM
If you are well trained in the martial arts instinct should take over. It could make you run or fight. Thinking about what you are going to do probrably won't even take place. I had two somewhat serious confrontations that come to mind. I can't tell you exactly what I did or didn't do but on both occasions I was standing and they were not. Your post seems to imply you have time to decide what you are going to do the reality is most of the time you don't . If you do have time to decide the fight could and should be avoided entirely.

Thats how I see it, too.

Amir Krause
08-12-2007, 01:53 AM
If you are already in afight, there is no point in tinking of the mistakes that led you into it. You are in afight, so FIGHT !!!

If you learned enought Aikido, then you will use aikido movements in your fight regardless of your intentions. as Dave explained:

Only when the lessons aikido teaches have been learned so well that they're ingrained into the subconcious (i.e.you don't need to think about them; they just happen) and the same applies to basic defensive practices will you be able to 'use aikido' for self-defense.


On the other hand, such situaitons:
Also, my brother gave me a reverse bear-hug once, just playing around. So I decided to play around. I grabbed his hand and ducked under his arm, applying sankyo. Instead of walking backwards like the pain was telling him to do, he kept fighting it and eventually came all the way around forwards. He simply wasn't going to submit. For the next week his wrist was sore. In the dojo, uke follows the path upon which he is guided. In a real fight, there is always the chance that the attacker will take the pain and injury in order to keep nage from executing the technique.

Could happen, In a fight, you may find out you have to cause real injuries - break his arm using the techniques swiftly, rather then a slow execution expecting him to follow you.
In a fight, the other person does not expect your actions, and he may therefore loose balance in unexpcted ways. I still remember such a situaiton in the dojo, in which the beginner, me, tried to Shiho-Nage another beginner, and kept looking for him at the end of the technique, only to find him spread across the wall on my back, he was thrown over already in my Kuzushi. (If you ask me today - I failed - I lost zanshin, harmony and connection).

Amir

Tony Wagstaffe
08-12-2007, 08:23 AM
iv you got into a fight what would you do fight or use aikido? i know the obvious answer 2 this is going to be use aikido because whats the point of learning it iv u dont use it. but im scared what iv it dosent work? what then? haas any1 every used it and succeded? or failled?

!st Avoid it if you can
2nd Survive it if you can't

Tony