take the pain or tap out? [Archive] - AikiWeb Aikido Forums

Steven Scott

09-06-2004, 06:32 AM

I have to say, and I feel very strongly about this point in particular, that if I am demonstrating a technique or engaging in practice and I know that what I have applied is effective and is causing serious discomfort to a student due to their desire to 'ignore the pain' then I can become very angry with them.

Personally, the only reason any Uke would have for fighting through the pain of a good technique, is to (in their minds) maintain an attitude of contention against Nage.

Such contention is not the desirable attitude to have in an Aikido Dojo, on top of that it is also irresponsible.

Many students have a higher pain threshold than others, and if a technique such as yonkyo (which does not actually have to cause pain to be effective) is not properly applied then by all means allow Nage to try again, but inform them that it does not feel right. Be helpful about it.
What then happens when you meet someone with a lower pain threshold that you do not know about. They get hurt.

I am also surprised, and more than a little saddened that your instructor finds an ability to take pain so impressive a trait to possess. That attitude should have gone out with the dark ages (or primary school).

Talk with your instructor about his expectations from students and ascertain for sure what response he desires from you. It is always possible that what appears to be a form of respect is actually a method of encouraging you to tap out. Perhaps a little bit of overkill, but it may be designed to be teaching a valyuable lesson.

I maintain my earlier statement though.

Again, my apologies for a more stronger viewpoint in this reply, but I have witnessed so many unecessary injuries occurring during what should have been routine practice because someone wanted to test both the limits of their 'threshold' and their partners patience.

I wish you all the best in your training.

DaveO

09-06-2004, 06:45 AM

I agree with Steven. In my case; I've got bad wrists so while I can take a great deal of pain without complaint; there's no point at all.
Look at it like a chess endgame. Several moves before the end of a game; both players may know one is about to be mated; e.g. "Queen takes rook; mate in six." At this point; there's simply no reason to play the thing out; the losing player will retire gracefully and shake the winner's hand. It's the same thing with a wrist technique. If nage gets nikkyo on me; I don't need to feel it hurting to know it's going to hurt in the very near future; so what's the point of actually feeling it? I'll tap immediately - saves the wrists and saves time for more training. The only time I don't tap right away is if I feel something wrong with the nikkyo; I'll say "Ow - wait; something's not right - get it into your shoulder..."etc. until it's in the proper position. Then I'll tap - fast.
:)

Nick Simpson

09-06-2004, 06:50 AM

The way im familiar with yonkyo is that it is done in an ikkyo like manner and casts the uke down onto the floor, after that a pin is applied were uke needs to tap out if done correctly or suffer possible arm/shoulder damage. The pain from the actual yonkyo control is a secondary matter, as long as uke is on the floor and controlled then they dont need to tap out from the nerve pain, just the pin which follows. If you dont tap out then and tori is doing it right then you risk a dislocation/breakage. Your choice at the end of the day...

ruthmc

09-06-2004, 07:30 AM

id just like 2 know when having yonkio done on tou should you take as much pain as you can or give up when it begins to hurt? :uch: because my sensei seems impressed sometimes if you can hold out on him for a while.
I suspect that your sensei wants to feel you extending your ki to resist the pain of the nerve pinch :)

It is actually possible to resist if you practice pushing the pain away, but you need to be able to exercise a fair bit of control. Most folk, when the pain hits, just go into brain-freeze and tap out or scream. The other method is to allow your wrists to receive the yonkyo nerve pinch so much that the nerves die (as one of my teachers did) but I would not recommend this!

During the pin, resistance is foolish and futile - you can get injured very easily so don't do it! By all means have a go at resisting the nerve pinch though...

Ruth

Nick Simpson

09-06-2004, 08:48 AM

Resisting the nerve pinch isnt that hard, it hurts like hell, of course it depends on who does it, sometimes it causes minor discomfort-sometimes sheer mind bending agony. But if its done statically whats the point of it? Its just causing pain without any form of restraint or control, unless you count just pain as a restraint. Nikkyo puts you on the floor and hurts you, a yonkyo control would just hurt you if you didnt cast or project afterwards?

Devon Natario

09-06-2004, 09:13 AM

Nick Simpson

09-06-2004, 09:39 AM

DUFFY DIVING! is the usual call when someone falls unnecesarily around here :P

SeiserL

09-06-2004, 09:54 AM

IMHO, never ignore pain.

ryujin

09-06-2004, 10:55 AM

Learn how to do the technique so that it controls the person's center instead of causes pain. :D

These techniques do not have to hurt in order to work.

As far as pain goes, there is a reason we feel it. It so we stop doing whatever it is that causes it.

:circle:

Janet Rosen

09-06-2004, 01:17 PM

One thing I hate is when people react to something I havent done. I dont care if someone can take pain, I will make it hurt them. It's the people that act like it hurts, when I have applied like 2% to the technique.

I know you all know what Im talking about. I did do Yonkyo to someone and after I projected them, they flew to the ground.

I want to make someone go to the ground with pain, not have someone jump around because they think they know where I want to take them.

You are assuming that YOU know when you are causing somebody else pain. Your 2% may create pain for some folks. Also bear in mind that pain does not necasarily equal either damage or control. Your 2% may injure some other folks, with or without hurting them.

Me, I want my partner to go to ground because their attack and my response to it resulting in a total undermining of balance. Pain don't enter into it. YMMV.

As for original question: there is something to be said for learning to relax and breathe into non-malignant pain such as nikkyo. There is also something to be said for being a responsive, connected uke and staying with your partner, going where things are going.
Me, I tap either when I'm in pain heading for damage, or when I'm controlled, but if the tap is for pain on the verge of damage, but I'm not actually being locked up, I do tell my partner so she can aim for actual control/balancetaking next time.

paw

09-06-2004, 05:02 PM

Tap early, tap often --- bjj maxim.

Regards,

Paul

stuartjvnorton

09-06-2004, 06:01 PM

Tap when it's on.

I hate white-knuckle nikkajo that doesn't lock anything, but just hurts my wrist/forearm.
Those I'll try to stand there for just because sometimes I'm stubborn.

Besides, if everyone drops too quickly or slaps whenever anyone does some half-arsed osae that doesn't actually lock anything, how are we every supposed to learn how to do it effectively?

Hopefully my uke will do the same to me whenever I do some poor excuse for a lock.
I'm here the learn, not to stroke my ego.

JasonFDeLucia

09-06-2004, 06:36 PM

Janet Rosen

09-06-2004, 11:13 PM

it sounds silly but for arm locks it's good to let yourself get a little injury so you'll know what you're dealing with .it will heal in time .
I have watched too many people let an acute "little injury" turn into a chronic long term pain to endorse this.
There is a benign pain associated with nikkyo, that flash of OW, caused by nerve endings touching, that does not signify injury. Learning to accept and breathe into this is one thing.
Beginners have no way to judge the difference between benign pain and a tendon being injured. Tendon injury takes 6 to 8 wks to heal. Period. There is no such thing as a tendon injury that is good to get, unless one is prepared to stop training for a few weeks and let the darn thing heal properly.

Rupert Atkinson

09-07-2004, 01:11 AM

There has to be some pain. Take more? It depends upon the person. An uke that taps too soon or jumps is no uke at all. If you don't like pain, take up origami.

You should not give where it is not desired though - there has to be an element of 'negotiated' understanding between tori and uke. There are no blanket rules, just 'negotiated' ones. The teacher's job is to make sure it does not get out of hand.

batemanb

09-07-2004, 01:17 AM

.......... I dont care if someone can take pain, I will make it hurt them............

.......I want to make someone go to the ground with pain...........

Why?

This is all about "learning" and training. Not about being "the tough guy in class". It's okay that it hurts, that's what its supposed to do.

This reminds me of a seminar that I was on earlier in the year. We were practicing shomen uchi nikkyo ura. My partner went first and cranked a couple of very hard nikkyo's on me. My turn, using kuzushi I put him on the floor and held his wrist, but he was looking at me blankly not tapping out. We went through this cycle two or three times, then whilst he was on his knees he looked at me and said "you don't undrestand nikkyo do you?", I asked him to stand up at which point he dropped back to his knees rather quickly tapping the floor. The point being that nikkyo was applied without pain, I didn't try to inflict or intend there to be any. The pain only comes if uke decides to fight, not because it's supposed to be there.

.......Anyways- take care.....

I hope so.

rgds

DaveO

09-07-2004, 02:09 AM

it sounds silly but for arm locks it's good to let yourself get a little injury so you'll know what you're dealing with .it will heal in time then you'll know better how far to go.

I greatly respect Mr. Delucia; he trains in a seriously tough field. However; I must take issue with this. Little injuries to joints don't heal. Ever. They almost heal; but the joint is never the same again. You can learn a lot with a minor injury true enough; but you'll eventually pay a very high price as you get older. And I don't mean 50+.
I have to use my hands to help myself up long flight of stairs. Both my wrists are deformed and in constant pain. I have arthritis in the R wrist, elbow and knuckles, and persistent rotator cuff problems in the L shoulder. Previously broken ribs give me occasional breathing trouble. The collarbone that got shattered 10 years ago is a very literal - and constant - pain in the neck. Dozens - perhaps hundreds - of little injuries over the course of time insure I'll spend the rest of my life in pain.
I'm 36 years old.
That 'little injury' may be a badge of pride right now; but as soon as the body starts losing its elasticity; it'll be back - for good.

Devon Natario

09-07-2004, 10:59 AM

You are assuming that YOU know when you are causing somebody else pain. Your 2% may create pain for some folks. Also bear in mind that pain does not necasarily equal either damage or control. Your 2% may injure some other folks, with or without hurting them.

Sorry, I've been doing this awhile, I do know when a person is being hurt and when they are reacting to "nothing". You aren't speaking to a person who loves to create pain on people, you are speaking to someone who has done this long enough, that I can tell when a small portion of pain is caused by a persons reaction. I guess the only thing I can say is, "Keep practicing, and someday, you'll know what Im talking about."

When I practice, I am focusing on street and martial combat, not an "art form" I dont want to focus on doing a joint lock that doesn't hurt, because then it's not a joint lock, it's a "hold". The entire point to "joint locks" are locking the joints, causing pain, and controlling your partner. If I want to use these techniques on patrol as a cop, or in the field as a soldier, being kind hearted is the last thing on my mind. Being that it is my partner in class, I dont want to hurt them, but I want to make sure I have it right.

DO NOT jump like it hurts or you are being controlled if you're not. If people react like this guy did to me, then we might as well classify all of us as O'Sensei.

Hopefully this explains to you as well batmanb, as to "why?

I learn martial arts to help me with work or to help me with military action. Of course that is where the term "martial" has come from, or did everyone forget that?

These techniqes to me are not practiced for the mysticism behind O'Sensei, they are "martial" techniques.

If people want to take an art, go join a painting class. Because if you "act" like it hurts, you are doing no justice to your partner.

Hanna B

09-07-2004, 11:14 AM

id just like 2 know when having yonkio done on tou should you take as much pain as you can or give up when it begins to hurt? :uch: because my sensei seems impressed sometimes if you can hold out on him for a while. id just like 2 know what you do or what happens in your dojo?
Now, yonkyo is different than most other aikido techniques. It is the only pain technique in aikido that I know of, that involves no joint manipulation. Taking yonkyo pain is not dangerous; I have been told that some Japanese teachers say "yonkyo lengthens your life".

For all other techniques, I's say it is a good advice to tap out rather than taking pain. Yonkyo can be trained in different ways, and one of them is learning to handle the pain. It can actually be very interesting.

Jan Hermansson, the grand old man of Swedish aikido, teaches to "relax and let the unpleasant yonkyo feeling disappear through your finger tips". If you tense your muscle and try to resist the pain, it can last a little while but when the pain comes it is sharp. If you follow JH's advice, pain comes slowly and you can hold our longer.

I was a bit nervous about going to JH's "pain class", but I am very glad that I did. I used to hate yonkyo, he taught me how to deal with it.

Nick Simpson

09-07-2004, 11:26 AM

Most of the ways I have seen yonkyo involve casting ukes shoulder through his head, so to speak, by pushing the elbow towards the ceiling and then cutting down as the yonkyo grip is being put on, this way the pain from the yonkyo nerve is just a pleasent bonus, not the actual point of the technique. I have never seen anyone attempt to do yonkyo by just grinding on the nerve point and not attempting to manipulate any of uke's joints.

Hanna B

09-07-2004, 11:32 AM

I worded my post unwisely. I agree with what you are saying (although I have seen people attempting to do yonkyo by pain point pressure only). The yonkyo pain however is not a joint pain, and yonkyo does not possess the possibile danger for your joints in the same way that sankyo and kotegaeshi does. That was my point.

jonreading

09-07-2004, 11:41 AM

For what its worth, my instructor used to advise students to occassionally resist technique for two reasons:
Under controlled circumstances, the joint technique could be used to stretch and strengthen limbs.
Under controlled circumstances, uke can test the application of the technique and discover kaishiwaza

To me, pushing technique to pain every time is excessive; put I do believe in pushing occassionally. You have to trust your partner however, or you can be seriously injured.

akiy

09-07-2004, 01:27 PM

For what its worth, my instructor used to advise students to occassionally resist technique for two reasons:
Under controlled circumstances, the joint technique could be used to stretch and strengthen limbs.
Under controlled circumstances, uke can test the application of the technique and discover kaishiwaza
Interesting. If I wanted a stretch from a partner's technique, I'd relax into it, not resist. Also, in my mind, kaeshiwaza comes from moving with, not resisting againt techniques...

-- Jun

Janet Rosen

09-07-2004, 02:15 PM

When I practice, I am focusing on street and martial combat, not an "art form" I dont want to focus on doing a joint lock that doesn't hurt, because then it's not a joint lock, it's a "hold". The entire point to "joint locks" are locking the joints, causing pain, and controlling your partner. (SNIP)
I learn martial arts to help me with work or to help me with military action. Of course that is where the term "martial" has come from, or did everyone forget that?
If people want to take an art, go join a painting class. Because if you "act" like it hurts, you are doing no justice to your partner.
I agree with your last sentence.
We differ in our training goals. I am not training to learn to do military action; if I wanted to do that, I'd join the armed forces. You work with folks who need/want to do that, fine.
I agree w/ the writer who posted that it is only when uke is resisting that there should be pain; the rest of the time, timing, balance taking, and locking of the system should be adequate. At least, that's my own goal in training.

stuartjvnorton

09-07-2004, 05:45 PM

I dont want to focus on doing a joint lock that doesn't hurt, because then it's not a joint lock, it's a "hold". The entire point to "joint locks" are locking the joints, causing pain, and controlling your partner. If I want to use these techniques on patrol as a cop, or in the field as a soldier, being kind hearted is the last thing on my mind. Being that it is my partner in class, I dont want to hurt them, but I want to make sure I have it right.

This still strikes me as wrong.
Where does the word "pain" appear in the term "joint locks"?
Seems like pain compliance is what you try when you can't actually lock them properly.
You're basing your control on being able to cause more pain than they can withstand. Hopefully they're not coked up or something.

Not that I can do a no-pain nikkajo, but one of my instructors does a pretty good job of it. No real option of working against it either.
At a seminar with Takeno Sensei (who has a reputation of being a real hardman), I was lucky enough to have him do kote gaeshi on me. The world turned, I got up. I felt nothing on my wrist at all: it all just happened before I had a chance to even think about it. One of those defining moments.

suren

09-07-2004, 06:42 PM

According to my sensei - tap early, tap often
When I'm pinned I try to relax and allow nage to stretch me until it hurts enaugh. When it's enaugh is person dependent, the only thing I ask nage is to do that slowly and gradually so that I have time to tap when it's enaugh.
I like that way and that seems to be ok with my partners and my sensei.

raul rodrigo

09-07-2004, 08:02 PM

In yonkyo I tend to tap very late, because I happen to be yonkyo-resistant. Just a trick of nature. On nikyo and sankyo I tap early enough. On the issue of locks causing pain: My shihan has a no-pain sankyo that try as we might we cannot imitate. He got angry at one of our yudansha who did a patented wristcrunching sankyo on him. "No, sankyo should not hurt." Kumagai Shihan's sankyo is completely effective but painless: boom, you're on the floor.

jonreading

09-08-2004, 10:17 AM

Interesting. If I wanted a stretch from a partner's technique, I'd relax into it, not resist. Also, in my mind, kaeshiwaza comes from moving with, not resisting againt techniques...

-- Jun

Thank you for the comment. I never thought about separating "relaxing" and "resisting" when discussing technique; I separated "resisting" with "fighting". But, I think maybe I should start thinking of "relaxing" as a more appropiate term.

billybob

09-08-2004, 11:29 AM

These techniqes to me are not practiced for the mysticism behind O'Sensei, they are "martial" techniques.

If people want to take an art, go join a painting class. Because if you "act" like it hurts, you are doing no justice to your partner.

while i agree that pretending has no place in aikido i disagree with your restriction of aikido as not being an art form. jujitsu is good. i have studied it, though i am sure you have studied more. but i rankle when you tell me not to perceive my training as artistic or spiritual.

i carry a gun, and have pepper spray in my pocket right now. i also have a heart, and will not kill a drunk friend who kisses my wife. I feel connected to my training partners, and i feel connected to game that i take when i hunt. if you focus only on 'doing to' others, how can you learn the deeper meaning of 'aiki'. maybe i am a sissy, because my first judo teacher was an old woman. maybe i have seen enough suffering already.

aikido is a martial art. resolve the contradiction in your own way.

billybob

Goetz Taubert

09-08-2004, 12:58 PM

When someone doesn't need to apply pain in technique and pin without loosing effectiveness, he / she has mastered a good part of the art.

Pain is always an irritation, like a sign for uke to get away quickly or to attack.
I would recommend not to rely on pain, it will not better the technique.

ryujin

09-08-2004, 02:57 PM

I dont care if someone can take pain, I will make it hurt them.

:rolleyes: If your close enough to hurt someone, your close enough to be hurt.

Nick Simpson

09-08-2004, 04:20 PM

I suppose that if your close enough to control someone then you are also close enough to be controlled? Flipside.

MaryKaye

09-08-2004, 05:16 PM

My personal ideal for sankyo is the kind I've experienced from a couple of high-rank instructors. There's no pain at all, but uke is on her toes, eyes very wide, aware that if she so much as twitches Something Bad will happen. Both times the instructor asked me "Can you hit me?" and I had to say "I can't even *try* to hit you. I don't think I want to move my eyes in that direction, much less my fist." And then when he wanted me down, wham, I was down--still no pain but it was impossible not to move.

Can't do it yet, though. At the moment we're just working on not letting uke hit us, and if it hurts, well, it hurts. Doesn't need to hurt any more than uke forces it to, though.

Mary Kaye

CNYMike

09-09-2004, 12:46 AM

id just like 2 know when having yonkio done on tou should you take as much pain as you can or give up when it begins to hurt? :uch: because my sensei seems impressed sometimes if you can hold out on him for a while. id just like 2 know what you do or what happens in your dojo?

Not sure of the EXACT policy of the Aikido dojo I'm in, although I'm pretty sure they lean closer to tap early. The rule in some of the other things I do, such as Filipino Kali, is also to tap early rather than later so as to avoid injury. This is particulalry true if you are "receiving" a joint lock applied with a stick or a staff, since the weapon (a) has no nerve endings to tell nage how much pressure is being applied, and (b) can't yield a little the way flesh can. So weapon locks can be WORSE than the empty hand ones. And anyone on the business end of nikkyo knows they can be pretty bad. (I suspect the aikido dojo is closer to "tap early" anyway.)

Tapping sooner rather than later is probably safer.

Nick Simpson

09-09-2004, 05:12 AM

Been Nikkyoed with a staff, short stick and a newspaper, hurts a lot!

Peter Seth

09-09-2004, 05:51 AM

One of the 'arts' within the art of aikido is to try and get your attacker to anticipate the potential results of every technique you are applying by being ahead of their anticipation. This way you can control their actions/reactions in advance. You are using the 'physical' to dictate the energy flow to control 'what is to come'! You effectively become their thought process for the duration of the flow.
Let them think Oh, Oh, this is going to hurt - better do 'this' to get out of it. The 'this' being the action you want. They anticipate themselves into the 'energy hole' you create.
So aikido can be as 'painless' as you need it to be. In fact the more painless, the more frightning. Everyone can relate to pain, but when you end up on the ground, felt nothing, and you don't know how you got there, it messes with your head!
Hope yous understand.
I know what I mean. I think?

Dazzler

09-09-2004, 06:22 AM

One of the gems I've picked up from practice with Pierre Chassang is 'do not disturb uke'.

This to me means to execute your technique without giving uke warning, this occurs by moving him in an unnatural manner or contrary to his attack (dont clash...), using pain at the wrong time or by having breaks in your movement.

Avoiding these errors can lead to the 'painless aikido' Peter refers to.

You are on the floor yet felt nothing.

Benefits from this are smoother more controlled technique.
It can almost seem as if you have a co-operative uke...This is not the case but can be achieved if you move him in a way that does not hurt or cause him to want to resist (until it is too late!!) ...so you blend with his movements ....then you get right back to the often quoted 'using ukes force against him' principle.

If you rely on pain, teeth smashing etc to force your uke to the floor you soon find one that spits his teeth out and smiles back!

Apply pain at the wrong time in your movements and its like a warning shot across the bows...uke withdraws to defensive mode and you are faced with a switched on alert opponent. Now you are in a fight that could have been avoided.

Pain for some people is like an electric shock....apply it to early and they will leap all over the place. Even they dont know where they will jump next!! .This makes it really difficult to apply a neatly controlled finish.

If you want to apply pain ...do it when theres nothing uke can do about it, but by then the technique or excercise should be finished anyway.

Finally - the symbol of aikido is the Tao. Ying and Yang. This is there for a reason. If uke attacks Tori will blend by yeilding before counter attack, If uke pulls in Tori will accept the invitation and enter.

So you have irimi / tenkan paired, positive and negative paired and of course ying and yang.

To clash creates pain ..positive against positive. This seems to go against this concept of bringing together of ying and yang.

With respect to yonkyo...It is just a control. Long term exposure reduces sensitivity anyway so why not take a bit then tap.

No prizes and nothing to be learned from allowing some one bigger , more experience etc free reign to crush your wrist.

Respectfully

D

bob_stra

09-09-2004, 08:00 AM

id just like 2 know when having yonkio done on tou should you take as much pain as you can or give up when it begins to hurt?

Why - are you the incredible uke-omatic? Are your joints made of ademantium? Do you not need your limbs in working order to make a living? Enjoy being able to foretell coming rains by agonizing arthritic pains?

TAP EARLY. TAP OFTEN. IF IT HURTS TAP.

Honestly, what a crock of bulls*it. Where does this "I WILL NOT TAP NNNNNNNGGGHH!!" machismo come from? It's rampant as hell in BJJ and Aikido.

We have a "catch and release" policy in my jits club. If I have you - I know it, you know it - but you refuse to tap, I move on to something else. I look out for you, you come back, we train some more. Everyone one wins.

I break your arm - who wins? You leave, I lose a training partner, I get to feel like an asshole, other guys head hunt against me....why go there?

TAP EARLY. This will not be good for your ego. You will never become the Big Man on Campus. The more ignorant folks in your club will not respect you.

But you'll still be at it while the "angry young men" have long since turned into crippled wrecks.

Then you'll have the last laugh.

(from a guy whose joints can fortell the whether)

bob_stra

09-12-2004, 11:53 AM

(from a guy whose joints can fortell the whether)

And sometime even the WEATHER.

What a Stoopid maroone.

JasonFDeLucia

09-12-2004, 07:26 PM

I have watched too many people let an acute "little injury" turn into a chronic long term pain to endorse this.
There is a benign pain associated with nikkyo, that flash of OW, caused by nerve endings touching, that does not signify injury. Learning to accept and breathe into this is one thing.
Beginners have no way to judge the difference between benign pain and a tendon being injured. Tendon injury takes 6 to 8 wks to heal. Period. There is no such thing as a tendon injury that is good to get, unless one is prepared to stop training for a few weeks and let the darn thing heal properly.
if your talking to a martial artist yes ,but a martial- ist whose life will depend on such understanding this thinking will not do.if you are a policeman whos life depends on this understanding you must forever refine your understanding of this 'YOUR LIFE DEPENDS ON IT ' if you're espousing to a person who's situation is artistic in nature then ok.but i've watched too many people be victms of neglect in this capacity where the experience would save life and limb not to know their true limit's gets police shot by their own guns and fighters permenantly altering their lives through ignorance.sore tendons versus dead practitioner ,no contest.

Janet Rosen

09-13-2004, 05:56 AM

if your talking to a martial artist yes.
Well, yes, most of us are discussing on-the-mat training. You are not. Fine. Kind of pointless us arguing apples and oranges so I"m signing off this thread.

CNYMike

09-13-2004, 10:41 AM

if your talking to a martial artist yes ,but a martial- ist whose life will depend on such understanding this thinking will not do....sore tendons versus dead practitioner ,no contest.

The last time I heard the "Tap early!" admonition was at Sifu Dan Inosanto's seminar in my home town in 2002. He was quite adamant that we should do so to avoid injuries. This a guy who has trained, and IS training, in a variety of martial arts; he's been around the block several times, forgetting more than most of here will ever know, and he's very much one for training safely. What does that tell you?

Sore tendons are one thing; you want ripped ones? I don't. I'll tap early, thanks.

NagaBaba

09-13-2004, 02:19 PM

The last time I heard the "Tap early!" admonition was at Sifu Dan Inosanto's seminar in my home town in 2002. He was quite adamant that we should do so to avoid injuries. This a guy who has trained, and IS training, in a variety of martial arts; he's been around the block several times, forgetting more than most of here will ever know, and he's very much one for training safely. What does that tell you?

Sore tendons are one thing; you want ripped ones? I don't. I'll tap early, thanks.

"Tap early!" is very good advice for beginners. They have not developed adequate muscles and right behavior. But with time, on MUST learn how to absorb full power of tori's technique. Otherwise martial spirit is lost and you practice empty movements and not aikido anymore. It has nothing to do with being tough.

Ability to absorb power of technique is easily demonstrated by top aikido shihans. They do it without any tension in their body. You can do any technique as powerful as possible, and they are simply smiling and asking you to try harder.

This ability is very important tool in aikido teaching.
1. In one hand it lets for uke to develop deep knowledge of their body, how to redistribute power of technique inside of his body by very small adjustments of position, relaxing certain muscle, and giving back this power to tori. This knowledge is very useful in many situations, ie you got hurt but for some reason you have to practice, or you lost control of your ukemi and have no time to tap out.

2. In the other hand for tori he can gain very deep knowledge about technique. How technique really influence attacker's body. Otherwise he will learn only very superficial , physical level of techniques and will never learn real aikido.

Both, tori and uke, are learning in such manner not only to explore their limits but certainly to go through their limits. To push it farther....this is only way do become better person, and to discover real goal of aikido.

billybob

09-13-2004, 02:58 PM

it sounds like you are wisely advising us to heed the warning of pain. that if we let ourselves develop naturally we will learn, without trying to be tough. thanks for the advice.

billybob

maikerus

09-15-2004, 03:33 AM

In training I suggest that you and your partner decide what kind of class you are going to have - making sure of course that it fits in with the class your instructor is giving you.

I think classes can range from a real resistance class where you "resist until you can't" to a real "thinking class" where you dissect every movement into its little components and figure out what they all do to make the technique better.

My suggestion for most training is that you go (or resist until) you feel that your partner has applied the technique sufficiently correctly that you feel the need to go (or stop resisting) even if you know that you can resist past that point.

But...as I said, there are extremes in how you resist and I do think pushing those extremes is sometimes beneficial. Just make sure that your partner knows what you're doing and be careful with them. After all, if your toys' break you won't get to play with them anymore...

--Michael

jester

09-15-2004, 10:17 AM

my sensei seems impressed sometimes if you can hold out on him for a while.

I used to work at a Karate Supply Store, and I'd see people come in with their wrists wrapped, or their elbow in a sling, and I'd asked them what happened. They would usually say something like "I was working with my instructor showing the class a technique and....". It happened often, and spread to all of the arts, not just aikido. I would just laugh to myself and wonder how could an instructor ever let this happen.

Pain is the bodies natural reaction. I believe to overide it is wrong (it might boost your ego though). If you are locked and don't resist, there should be no pain at all, only the inability to escape. When one tries to escape or resist, then pain will happen. To put pain on a classmate seems like a lack of control, and for an instructor to do this is crazy.

Hanna B

09-16-2004, 04:50 AM

batemanb

09-16-2004, 05:50 AM

Am I really the only one who finds it of high relevance that the thread starter is talking about yonkyo, not the rest of the techniques? To me, taking pain in yonkyo is something completely else than the rest of the techniques. I find no reason to advice people to tap early for safety reasons - in yonkyo.

Hanna,

I guess it depends on which part of Yonkyo. I assume you just mean pain from the nerve, fair enough, take as much of it as you want. However, the nerve pain is incidental to yonkyo, it is not necessary for the technique but you can still lock up the arm when it comes to the pin, and some pin variations are definately not good to try and resist.

rgds

Bryan

Hanna B

09-16-2004, 05:56 AM

Peter Seth

09-16-2004, 06:01 AM

This seems to be a discussion on 'techniques', when in fact 'techniques' are only the tool we use to develop aikido as Osensei would have wished it. The do (way) of Ai (harmonising) Ki (energies).
I know everyone must go through the 'hoops' of using techniques to progress, but try not to dwell on their physical impact on a person (this is jujitsu/aikijitsu etc, etc,). Instead use them to develop your 'feel' for energy flow - the best techniques are performed with the least effort. Ergo - if you are applying effort/pain, your techniques are immature as far as aiki is concerned. Any discomfort should only be transitory as you move with the flow. (In fact maybe the word technique should be changed to something else, as it tends to hold back or give the wrong emphasis on the true 'path' of aikido)? Pain is both negative and positive at the same time, but at both ends it tends to be destructive. The whole aim of aiki is to function in the 'path' in between, to harmonise with both positive and negative, this is where energies come together and coalesce - where both everything and nothing exist. As Osensei said 'aikido is zero'.
So try to use technique only as a tool to perfect your 'harmony with everything' path, which may sound a bit 'Yeeeh maaan' and hippie, but believe me is a very positive place to be 'if only'.
There is enough pain in life as it is without inflicting it in the pursuit of the positive and pleasurable experience which is aikido.
Sorry about that folks - the top of my head came off there for a moment!
But seriously - I have been there, and as said every injury causes a scar/lesion, these build up and can cause great discomfort on top of the normal ageing process. We are only here once, lets make it as comfortable as we can.

Pete.

I wonder what the replies will be??

Hanna B

09-16-2004, 06:11 AM

The last years of my aikido training was along the "no pain"-line. I would not say anything bad about the dojos who thinks some pain is a good tool, though. There is different kinds of pain - some can be safely played with, others not.

There is enough pain in life as it is without inflicting it in the pursuit of the positive and pleasurable experience which is aikido.
(snip)
Sorry I wonder what the replies will be???

The world for sure would be a nicer place if not wo many people preached to others what they should and should not do.

David Wagg

09-16-2004, 07:09 AM

You might find a different viewpoint useful (I practise Shorinji Kempo, hope I'm not breaking any forum rules by posting here :) ).

I've damaged ligaments in both wrists being thrown with joint-manipulation techniques. Happened about 3 years ago now, and they still haven't properly healed. So I would recommend being careful with painful techniques.

On the other hand, it's impossible to learn how to do a technique properly if your partner doesn't react appropriately. Shorinji Kempo is designed for self-defence, so appropriate means a certain level of resistance, as you would expect from someone attacking you. But from what I know of Aikido, and what I've read in this thread so far, the goal is different, 'The way of harmonising energies'. Does this mean uke should not resist the throw at all? What is the role of uke in Aikido?

Interested to hear some different viewpoints to what I'm used to...

jester

09-16-2004, 09:33 AM

What is the role of uke in Aikido?

As far as my school and my training goes, when paracticing techniques, Uke must simply attack then recover.

An appropriate attack, with a correct recovery (or follow through) is what uke should do. If you add resisting, countering etc. you are getting into randori and not practicing the specific technique anymore.

Randori is where techniques are tested and modified.

Alex Megann

09-16-2004, 10:46 AM

David Wagg wrote:

"You might find a different viewpoint useful (I practise Shorinji Kempo, hope I'm not breaking any forum rules by posting here)"

You could come around the corner and see what yonkyo is about...

Alex

Chris Birke

09-16-2004, 10:58 AM

How do you not tap out? Just let it snap? I never felt as though I've had much of a choice. If I'm forgetful, the popping noises remind me.

Hanna B

09-16-2004, 11:36 AM

Chris,

The yonkyo pins I have encountered have not been that severe - the pain to take have been mainly from the nerve point. I guess it all depends on what tori focusses on once uke is on the ground...

Ron Tisdale

09-16-2004, 12:05 PM

The yonkyo pins I have encountered have not been that severe - the pain to take have been mainly from the nerve point. I guess it all depends on what tori focusses on once uke is on the ground... and so it all comes down to how the thread starters teacher teaches the technique.

Alas Daniel, go ask your teacher what his goal with the technique is and how he likes it practised...

The kneeling pin I know from yonkajo is the same as the kneeling pin in nikajo. Things go pop eventually when done right and I don't tap.

The standing pin I know maintains the pressure on the nerve, but also locks the shoulder. Again...eventually...pop.

Just my experience,
Ron

cguzik

09-16-2004, 01:17 PM

As for the original question...

I think that, as uke, there is a good reason to let yourself feel what is happening as you are pinned, before tapping. That reason is to develop an understanding of what is happening in your body. This develops one's understanding of how to execute the pin as tori. Also, the ability to relax into the pin helps develop an understanding of how kaeshiwaza can be applied. You can only learn how to relax into the pin if you work with a partner who will apply the stretch slowly enough for you to do it.

I find it interesting that a debate has evolved whether joint locks should be practiced as involving pain, because the original question was in the specific context of yonkyo. The most common source of pain during execution of this waza is compression of the nerve (the radial nerve?) due to tori having a particular grip on uke's forearm. This compression is not due to a joint lock.

However, yonkyo does involve skeletal locking, which can cause pain, most commonly in the shoulder, during the pin. The lock can be enough to throw uke, even if the nerve compression does not happen. As tori, given the choice between getting the grip and corresponding compression of the nerve, or getting kuzushi and the lock, I'll take the kuzushi and lock every time. If you get the grip and compression of the nerve too, that's even better. In other words, the combination of kuzushi and the lock is both necessary and sufficient to achieve the throw. The nerve compression alone is neither.

Regards,

Chris

Ron Tisdale

09-16-2004, 02:17 PM

I'm in complete agreement with you Chris...

Ron

JasonFDeLucia

09-16-2004, 07:02 PM

raul rodrigo

09-16-2004, 07:16 PM

[QUOTE=Chris Guzik]As for the original question...

However, yonkyo does involve skeletal locking, which can cause pain, most commonly in the shoulder, during the pin. The lock can be enough to throw uke, even if the nerve compression does not happen. As tori, given the choice between getting the grip and corresponding compression of the nerve, or getting kuzushi and the lock, I'll take the kuzushi and lock every time. If you get the grip and compression of the nerve too, that's even better. In other words, the combination of kuzushi and the lock is both necessary and sufficient to achieve the throw. The nerve compression alone is neither.

As my shihan was saying during one yonkyo demonstration: "Okay, we do lock.. ahh, he can resist pain....okay, instead we break the arm." Uke tapped immediately.

CNYMike

09-16-2004, 09:52 PM

that tells me just that ,it was a seminar where legal safety is as important .....

What, like "legal safety" ISN'T important to someone operating a martial arts school or academy? Somehow, I doubt it.

.... but you better believe mr inosanto trains with a core group that is enduring the very riggors i've described ....

I've never been to the Insanato Academy, so I don't know how Guro Dan trains in his regular classes.

However, I have trained in LaCoste-Inosanto Kali under Guro Kevin Seaman for seven years; both are full instructors under Sifu Dan, and Guro Kevin is a professional martial artist, hardly a "hobbyist." I was in Guro Kevin's Intermediate Kali class from 1999 until he closed his academy last year. So I've practiced --- and, in Aikido terms, "received" --- throws and joint locks executed with the empty hand and with the stick. I've also been exposed to the Filipino arts' grappling system. I am still training in Kali under Guro Andy.

Not ONCE in all that time did either man exhort any of his students -- including individuals who had been with them a lot longer than me, one of them being a corrections officer who knows a LOT about real world violence and what to train for -- to refrain from tapping out until the pain was too much, or until muscles or tendons ripped. Not ONCE. Have I gone home stiff and sore form having my arms and/or legs cranked? Of course. Have I had "mystery bruises" the next day? Sure. But was my commitment to training ever questioned because I tapped too early, or tapped at all? No. Never.

.... the only way to train against the knife is with the knife .but i don't advocate stabbing each other in training even a little,but get some bruises from a wooden knife might give you AN ENDGE.

Thank you for acknowledging that it's a good idea to use a wooden knife, not a real one. Yes, I have done a lot of training with one of those, too. However, for freestyle knife sparring, we used short padded sticks; and wore safety goggles; and even then, for sparring, we were told to stay AWAY from our partner's face and throat, for safety reasons.

You want to argue that it's not real martial arts training unless you have to worry about being maimed in every class, be my guest. But the two Kali instructors I have known for several years don't take that approach, and I'll side with them for now, thank you.

Rupert Atkinson

09-16-2004, 10:31 PM

I understand the general idea that 'pain-no-pain' people are putting forward but I believe that the 'no-pain-no-gain' should last well into advanced Aikido. While what we do works on each other, it is dangerous to stray too far from reality that is found in every Judo dojo - serious Judoka do not tap, period. Rather, tori gives up, recognising the disaster that is about to happen. Yes, I used to be a bit like that - it was the norm, but I was not as 'far gone' as those more serious than I. In Aikido, however, unlike Jujutsu, Judo, or Hapkido (my experience), the pain received should not be of a damaging nature (painful-yes, damaging-no) - once removed there should be no lasting effect. If I ever get to be a master it'll hopefully be reflected in pure-pain-less technique, but until then ... I shall not pretend.

bob_stra

09-17-2004, 06:08 AM

... serious Judoka do not tap, period.

Just to add my p.o.v. to the above (not a criticism)

Sure they do - they tap all the time. We like our joints to work ;-)

The problem with Aikido is that the situation is highly artificial. I put on lock, you smile politely, I put it on a little tighter, you keep smiling - "ha ha! I can resist you! Look at my superaikido", I put on a little more - "Let's see how much you can take, sucka!". In the end a kind of macho relationship develops wherein the 'big dog' is the one who can take the most pain without flinching, technique be damned.

There's no sense to this - you're simply accruing injury for the sake of pride. And IMHO it misses the point of co-operative practice as it occurs in Aikido. May as well tap out early.

In judo OTOH, I put on the lock, I put it on with every intent of "finishing it" right from the start. Either you tap out or the joint goes pop - your machismo will do you no good. IOW your cooperation is not really required ;-)

If your training partner is considerate, he may let you go even if you're too stubborn to tap out. In any case, the transaction between us is stripped of superfluous mind games.

Just IMHO - I could be wrong. YMMV.

CNYMike

09-17-2004, 10:38 AM

.... the pain received should not be of a damaging nature (painful-yes, damaging-no) - once removed there should be no lasting effect ....

Well, that goes right to the point I was trying to make -- if you tape too late, or don't tap at all, there could be damage. That's why the see-how-much-I-can take argument has its risks. It's one thing to go home with your tendons stiff and sore. It's quite another to have them ripped up. I've never experienced that, and I don't want to. So when in doubt, tap earlier rather than later. Better safe than sorry.

daniel loughlin

09-17-2004, 10:45 AM

You could come around the corner and see what yonkyo is about...

Alex
:p lol alex i agree. im so surprised that this has take up so much intrest with everyone thanks for all of your posts ;)

regards danny :D

daniel loughlin

09-17-2004, 10:59 AM

George S. Ledyard

09-17-2004, 11:17 AM

Years ago I visited Honbu dojo and attended classes. My first class off the plane was Shibata Sensei's. I was familiar with the style of ukemi which encouraged the student to really hang in there on a lock and take the technique but I never theought it made any sense and certainly Saotome Sensei never encouraged us to do that. If you didn't go on a technique you'd find out about the atemi which was hidden behind the technique.

Anyway, Shibata Sensei was doing kotegaeshi and when he got around to my part of the mat he called me up and went to crank one on me. He had it so I vacated with a break fall right away, riding just in front of the force. Shibata Sensei got this totally disgusted look on his face, walked off and didn't so much as look at me the rest of class. Apparently, I was supposed to let him hurt me, to proove how tough I was or how powerful he was, I wasn't sure. It was pretty funny as none of the other more senior instructors I took ukemi for that week seemed to have a problem with my ukemi style.

jester

09-17-2004, 02:23 PM

Apparently, I was supposed to let him hurt me, to proove how tough I was or how powerful he was, I wasn't sure.

If it's an instructor, that puts you in an awkward position.

NagaBaba

09-17-2004, 02:47 PM

I was familiar with the style of ukemi which encouraged the student to really hang in there on a lock and take the technique but I never theought it made any sense and certainly Saotome Sensei never encouraged us to do that.
Well, you are high ranking aikidoka. You take Shibata sensei class. You know appropriate ukemi. And still, you use ukemi from other style.
It is not surprising that he looked at you this way.

Simply bad etiquette.

Me too, I'm very surprised. Beginner student can claim lack of knowledge. But you?

This is surely not the way to build bridges between aikido styles.

jester

09-17-2004, 02:55 PM

Build bridges through Pain!!!

Doesn't sound like that bridge will hold many cars.

daniel loughlin

09-17-2004, 03:16 PM

i dont no you do i alex? do you train on fridays with sensei kolesnikov? sorry iv i don't just got a feeling

JasonFDeLucia

09-18-2004, 05:18 PM

What, like "legal safety" ISN'T important to someone operating a martial arts school or academy? Somehow, I doubt it.

I've never been to the Insanato Academy, so I don't know how Guro Dan trains in his regular classes.

However, I have trained in LaCoste-Inosanto Kali under Guro Kevin Seaman for seven years; both are full instructors under Sifu Dan, and Guro Kevin is a professional martial artist, hardly a "hobbyist." I was in Guro Kevin's Intermediate Kali class from 1999 until he closed his academy last year. So I've practiced --- and, in Aikido terms, "received" --- throws and joint locks executed with the empty hand and with the stick. I've also been exposed to the Filipino arts' grappling system. I am still training in Kali under Guro Andy.

Not ONCE in all that time did either man exhort any of his students -- including individuals who had been with them a lot longer than me, one of them being a corrections officer who knows a LOT about real world violence and what to train for -- to refrain from tapping out until the pain was too much, or until muscles or tendons ripped. Not ONCE. Have I gone home stiff and sore form having my arms and/or legs cranked? Of course. Have I had "mystery bruises" the next day? Sure. But was my commitment to training ever questioned because I tapped too early, or tapped at all? No. Never.

Thank you for acknowledging that it's a good idea to use a wooden knife, not a real one. Yes, I have done a lot of training with one of those, too. However, for freestyle knife sparring, we used short padded sticks; and wore safety goggles; and even then, for sparring, we were told to stay AWAY from our partner's face and throat, for safety reasons.

You want to argue that it's not real martial arts training unless you have to worry about being maimed in every class, be my guest. But the two Kali instructors I have known for several years don't take that approach, and I'll side with them for now, thank you.
you should see the edged weapons docutext that dan inosanto made with leo guage for u.s law enforcement before you think you know who you're siding with and what you are siding about

Richard Cardwell

09-18-2004, 07:28 PM

Mr DeLucia, you seem to be taking this all rather personally. I don't mean to annoy you, but unless I've missed something, no-one's taking potshots at you.

wendyrowe

09-18-2004, 07:57 PM

Mr DeLucia, you seem to be taking this all rather personally. I don't mean to annoy you, but unless I've missed something, no-one's taking potshots at you.

I didn't get the impression that he was taking it personally or being defensive. It seems more to me like he's trying to get people to question their assumptions.

As for me, in general I tap when I know my partner definitely has me; but sometimes I hold on a bit further so I'll be closer to knowing my limits. I'm thankful that my lifestyle doesn't require me to discover my REAL limits -- but if I lived another sort of life, I think I'd rather test myself in a controlled scenario than discover it in real time while on duty.

Lorien Lowe

09-18-2004, 10:07 PM

Re. floppy ukes from yonkyo: I am one. I literally CANNOT get out of a yonkyo fast enough for it not to be very painful if someone gets the nerve pinch accurately, and I always end up flying to the ground in a very dramatic fashion even for relative beginners. It probably does look like I'm bailing out, because nage hardly has to touch me before I'm gone.
On the other hand, I'm quite difficult to get a good nikyo and especially a good sankyo on. It's just the way my body is made.

-Lorien

George S. Ledyard

09-19-2004, 12:54 AM

Well, you are high ranking aikidoka. You take Shibata sensei class. You know appropriate ukemi. And still, you use ukemi from other style.
It is not surprising that he looked at you this way.

Simply bad etiquette.

Me too, I'm very surprised. Beginner student can claim lack of knowledge. But you?

This is surely not the way to build bridges between aikido styles.
Actually, I have no interest in having someone torque on my wrists or other joints unnecessarily. If executing some decent defensive ukemi is considered rude by some folks then I guess I am rude.
I will say that during my week's stay at Honbu I took extensive ukemi from the Nidai Doshu, Osawa Sensei and Watanabe Sensei as well as from Kuroiwa Sensei at his dojo. Shibata Sensei, by far the most junior, was the only one of the group that seemed to have this expectation that I hang in there and get reefed on. The idea that this is some sort of general expectation at the dojo at which I was a guest simply isn't the case although there might be individuals teaching there who take this approach. The people whom I was most intersted in learning from did not..

CNYMike

09-19-2004, 02:49 PM

you should see the edged weapons docutext that dan inosanto made with leo guage for u.s law enforcement .....

Are you talking about the one with interviews with cops who have survived knife attacks? Guro Kevin played that one in class in 2002 or 2003, I think -- gave us something of a reality check. Mr. Ray, who's the corrections officer I told you about, also contributed his own knowledge of that area to the dicussion.

If you're talking about something else, could you descirbe it, please?

..... before you think you know who you're siding with and what you are siding about

:confused: :confused: :confused: What do you mean by "taking sides"? Guro Dan is the head of the Kali system I've been studying for seven years. He's right there in my lineage: Guro Dan ----> Guro Kevin Seaman ---> Guros Andrew Astle and Lance Loomis; from there, Guro Kevin, Guro Andy, and Guro Lance ----> Me. That's all there is to it; that's the FMA line I'm a part of. Just like you would be just stating the facts if you rattled off the teachers you've had, and who taught them. No taking sides, just outlining your lineage.

So where's the "taking sides"? I don't see it. :confused: :confused: :confused:

CNYMike

09-19-2004, 02:58 PM

Am I really the only one who finds it of high relevance that the thread starter is talking about yonkyo, not the rest of the techniques? To me, taking pain in yonkyo is something completely else than the rest of the techniques. I find no reason to advice people to tap early for safety reasons - in yonkyo.

Good point about the thread being about Yonkyo. :o I haven't seen too much of it since resuming Aikido six months ago, but isn't part of it going for pressure points in the wrists to giive it a little more oomph? If it is, you might not have to tap to avoid injury, but it'll still hurt.

thomas_dixon

09-19-2004, 03:23 PM

Personally making weapons for law enforcement is completely different from martial arts. Theres a difference between practicing techniques with your friends and trying to take down a murderer.

Also, I think one should tap out when they know ot tap out..If they get the slightest feeling "I better tap" then do it. Because otherwise holding out can put extreme stress on the body causing injuries you didn't even know existed. Keep in mind that ligaments and muscles are what move your body and they can only take so much, don't hold out until something breaks. Also...Your teacher, nor ANY of the students in your class, no matter how advanced, should be conciously trying to hurt you...thats not training it's assault. Muchos difference. I apologize if i offended anyone I really didn't read the whole of replies, just the topic.

NagaBaba

09-19-2004, 06:49 PM

Actually, I have no interest in having someone torque on my wrists or other joints unnecessarily..

And you went to Shibata sensei class, knowing his ukemi requirement ????
If I understand well, you consciounsly went to Shibata sensei class to practice Saotome sensei aikido style? ....ooopppssss......I must be missing something?

When I go to Saotome sensei or Ikeda sensei seminar I make sure NOT to practice the way I practice in my home dojo & federation. Practicing in my style would be considered not respecting them and pretending I know better aikido. Kind of showing off, "hey folks, look at me, this is real aikido stuff"......

Very surprising.....

stuartjvnorton

09-19-2004, 07:46 PM

Maybe George didn't know about the ukemi requirements until the incident happened.
You're making lots of assumptions here...

JasonFDeLucia

09-19-2004, 08:05 PM

Mr DeLucia, you seem to be taking this all rather personally. I don't mean to annoy you, but unless I've missed something, no-one's taking potshots at you.

no i don't really think so either. i'm just trying to use the same demeanor in response to people whose purpose doesn't seem to be as sincere as they let on .but i know there are people who can see that two seemingly opposing views could be applicable and right and /or try to see that it could be the case .some people just want to create division with ignorance in a field where the most important thing is the safety of the people actually using it.this is something they'll never know because they feel very important using words to gain a position of advantage at the expense of the true importance (the lives of law enforcement)the thread was about 'should one tap ,when etc.)i'm responsible for peoples learning that saves their lives,and here comes some one using someone elses credentials to put themselves over me at the expense someone else .what do they care if they mislead people to make themselves feel smart .and some friend of theirs may come here and say i'm so and so and i'm a cop or a fire man and i disagree with you .i would say you are a fool and will never know or be able to impart honestly or perform effectively or you are just a liar trying to make your friends look good .also you don't care about the real issue .all i said was that for the martial artist this way was good and for the martialist that way was good.and here comes some martial artist telling the martialist he doesn't know what he's talking about.never forget a martialist is also a martial artist but not all martial artists are martialists.

CNYMike

09-19-2004, 10:51 PM

..... all i said was that for the martial artist this way was good and for the martialist that way was good ....

I seriously doubt that either group wants to go to the hospital with ripped tendons because they wanted to see how much they can take; one would hope that both martialists and martial artists would train SAFELY so they can learn their skills without being seriously hurt.

If we can agree that stiff tendons are ok and ripped ones are not; and one should train safely WHATEVER they're doing, then no sense quibbling over semantics.

George S. Ledyard

09-19-2004, 11:35 PM

And you went to Shibata sensei class, knowing his ukemi requirement ????
If I understand well, you consciounsly went to Shibata sensei class to practice Saotome sensei aikido style? ....ooopppssss......I must be missing something?

When I go to Saotome sensei or Ikeda sensei seminar I make sure NOT to practice the way I practice in my home dojo & federation. Practicing in my style would be considered not respecting them and pretending I know better aikido. Kind of showing off, "hey folks, look at me, this is real aikido stuff"......

Very surprising.....

Actually, I didn't have any idea who Shibata Sensei was or what his requirements were. I had never heard of the man before I went to his class. I was at Honbu Dojo, he was on the schedule, I went.

As I said, I have taken enough ukemi from a range of the top instructors to have a pretty good feel for what is acceptable ukemi and what is not.

I mentioned the story because it was a good example of the different ideas about ukemi which exist. Some people encourage you to really hang in there and "receive" the technique. This does lead to great strength in the joints over time.

Others teach you to recognize when it is on and when it isn't and you take the fall if it is. For these folks hanging in there has no functional purpose and is martially unsound. If you are going to do kaeshiwaza you need to accomplish the reversal before the opponent is aware that he is open for the reversal. Hanging in there and trying to be strong simply gives away too much information to the opponent, allowing him to use the stemi that is always right under the surface in any technique.

Anyway, I am quite happy with what I had been taught and why I had been taught that way. In this case it saved me from some serious wrist abuse. If someone gets his nose out of joint because I didn't afford them that pleasure, well that's not my problem and I certainly don't consider it being disrespectful.

George S. Ledyard

09-19-2004, 11:48 PM

if your talking to a martial artist yes ,but a martial- ist whose life will depend on such understanding this thinking will not do.if you are a policeman whos life depends on this understanding you must forever refine your understanding of this 'YOUR LIFE DEPENDS ON IT ' if you're espousing to a person who's situation is artistic in nature then ok.but i've watched too many people be victms of neglect in this capacity where the experience would save life and limb not to know their true limit's gets police shot by their own guns and fighters permenantly altering their lives through ignorance.sore tendons versus dead practitioner ,no contest.
I have to agree with Jason in that good training should encourage you to push the envelope and develop a very good understanding of what your limits are. But there are different types of limits. Limits that have to do with stamina and normal types of impact pain are the ones that you try to push through.

As Jason knows quite well there are techniques which, if your opponent has one on you, you tap out. I had an elbow lock on student once who had a very high pain tolerance. he decided to see if he could stop me. I let go as I heard his elbow starting to go... his ability to handle the pain was stronger than the joint itself was.

I think that it is quite possible to have training methods which take people to their mental and physical limits which don't require recklessly injuring each other. But Jason is quite right that it is important to push the limits in your training because real world life and death situations can place you in a position where you dig down deep and come up with something or die.

Hanna B

09-21-2004, 09:23 AM

Daniel, I just noticed on another thread that you are 14 years old... your joints are not yet fully developed, and you should be more careful than adults.

Tap.

batemanb

09-22-2004, 01:21 AM

Daniel, I just noticed on another thread that you are 14 years old... your joints are not yet fully developed, and you should be more careful than adults.

Tap.

Good spot Hanna.

I'd be very worried of any teacher that was encouraging juniors to take the pain or hold out in these kind of techniques. Teaching locks to youngsters is a delicate thing and considered a no no in a lot of places now. I don't teach them in my junior class, the joints and bones are still in development and a lot of damage can be done. Don't hang in at all.

On trying to take the nerve pinch, this may not be so much of a problem as the lock (please anyone correct me if I got that wrong) but your pain threshold is considerably lower at a younger age. The pain from the nerve may mask whats going on with the joint because the intensity is greater.

Remember, yonkyo is a lock and involves the shoulder, the nerve is incidental, Hanna's advice is good.

Tap.

Regards

Bryan

Hanna B

09-22-2004, 02:31 AM

You know, I still like working on taking the nerve pain in yonkyo... simply because in yonkyo you can practise taking pain safely. I suppose it can be done unsafely too, but if you want to practise to take pain here is a possibiliby... even if you would have a different emphasis on the ingredients of the pin if you were to use it outside of the dojo, you can choose to train differently when you have a purpose.

I would not do this kind of training in taking pain in youngster either though, even if it can be very safely done. If nothing else, I would not trust them to fully realise the importance of not trying the same thing in other techniques.

NagaBaba

09-27-2004, 09:51 PM

Actually, I didn't have any idea who Shibata Sensei was or what his requirements were. I had never heard of the man before I went to his class. I was at Honbu Dojo, he was on the schedule, I went.

Years ago I visited Honbu dojo and attended classes. My first class off the plane was Shibata Sensei's. I was familiar with the style of ukemi which encouraged the student to really hang in there on a lock and take the technique but I never theought it made any sense and certainly Saotome Sensei never encouraged us to do that.

Did I do an assumption here?

And Shibata sensei's ukemi requirements have certainly NOT as goal a preparation for kaeshi waza. You have no clue at all what is pourpose of such practice. I'm not surprised, after all, Saotome Sensei never encouraged you to do it, so you don't need to learn such strange thing ;)

billybob

09-28-2004, 12:23 PM

mercy sakes.

my physical therapist told me that some of his patients were 'tough guys'. he said, if enduring pain is what you want out of this (rolfing therapy) then that is what you will get.

so, if you feel that enduring pain is good training then beat your head against a wall then practice regaining your center.

for me, yonkyo affects my ki directly. the meridian in the wrist seems to connect right to my damaged liver. so, i get nauseous when yonkyo is applied. i have practiced centering through the pain, but only to the point i felt i was learning - not to prove a point.

if i offend any billy bad-asses out there - my name is john smith!!

billybob

Yokaze

09-28-2004, 12:52 PM

I have a lot of old shoulder injuries (dislocations and such) that make many pins, such as Nikkyo and Sankyo, extremely painful. However, sitting through the pain for a small amount of time may not be such a bad idea, so long as your nage is not applying excessive force.

Many of the stretches done before practice mimic the stretches you feel in a pin. So, if the nage is gentle, you can get a very good stretch if you are careful. You can always feel when the pressure goes from a relaxing stretch to the brink of injury, so be sure to tap out before that point.

batemanb

09-29-2004, 01:14 AM

So, if the nage is gentle, you can get a very good stretch if you are careful. You can always feel when the pressure goes from a relaxing stretch to the brink of injury, so be sure to tap out before that point.

There's a big IF there. A lot of people, especially in the early years do not feel what they are doing to uke when they apply the pin, they apply too hard and too quick. Trying to absorb it and take it is not a good idea.

rgds

Hanna B

09-29-2004, 07:45 AM

There's a big IF there. A lot of people, especially in the early years do not feel what they are doing to uke when they apply the pin, they apply too hard and too quick. Trying to absorb it and take it is not a good idea.

Aikido training contains lots of ifs. I feel the difference if uke applies the pin fast or slow, I adapt accordingly.

Having said that, most of my aikido the last years of my training was extremely soft and I see the "taking pain practice" as a minor part - however interesting.

batemanb

09-29-2004, 08:15 AM

Aikido training contains lots of ifs. I feel the difference if uke applies the pin fast or slow, I adapt accordingly.

Having said that, most of my aikido the last years of my training was extremely soft and I see the "taking pain practice" as a minor part - however interesting.

Hanna,

where I'm coming from is that if you go down with the intention of trying to resist a bit of pain, but your tori is still a bit raw and moves quicker and harder than you are anticipating, you could get yourself into some trouble. It's not always easy to adapt. Of course there are many different people out there, it's really up to the individual based on their practice experience with their partner. I just wouldn't advocate it as a matter of course.

regards

Bryan

Hanna B

09-29-2004, 02:42 PM

I take you as you do not advocate to resist as default; in that I agree. Also, where I'm coming from you would be very precise about what the current training is meant for and what it is not meant for.

NagaBaba

09-29-2004, 09:20 PM

There's a big IF there. A lot of people, especially in the early years do not feel what they are doing to uke when they apply the pin, they apply too hard and too quick. Trying to absorb it and take it is not a good idea.

rgds
We practice martial art, not social conversation. Pain is a natural companion of martial artist. One can't avoid it(particularly when we get older), so the best way is to customize it, to gain deep knowledge how to absorb it with minimum body problems.

Yes it is possible to develop body to such way, that even very violent application of any aikido technique can be absorbed without ANY harm to the body. This capability is very important, cos without that it is impossible to understand why aikido is non-resistant art and one can't advance to secret level of aikido techniques ;) :):):)

At high level application, with multiple attack on normal speed, when attackers are very experimented, nage usually goes at full of his capacities, full power and full speed. Whole point of such exercise is to push him behind his limits. So of course, he can't control very well techniques. He may even execute techniques in very brutal, violent way if it is apropriate to deal with particular attack.
Anything is permitted for tori and for uke in this case, there are no rules in aikido, remember!

In such situation, when both, attacker and nage, work at the limit of safe practice, uke's capacity of absorbing more then nage can give is crucial to survive.

In such environment, and ONLY in such environment(we have no sparring) tori can develop spontaneous execution of techniques(he doesn't need to take care of uke) and uke can develop spontaneous response, to fulfill goal of aikido practice.

So it is impossible to reach Founder's ideal without learning how to absorb painful techniques, sorry Hanna :)

batemanb

09-30-2004, 01:33 AM

We practice martial art, not social conversation.

No mention of social conversation in my post.

Pain is a natural companion of martial artist. One can't avoid it(particularly when we get older), so the best way is to customize it, to gain deep knowledge how to absorb it with minimum body problems.

Yes it is possible to develop body to such way, that even very violent application of any aikido technique can be absorbed without ANY harm to the body. This capability is very important, cos without that it is impossible to understand why aikido is non-resistant art and one can't advance to secret level of aikido techniques ;) :):):)

I agree, anything's possible, but I'm not sure that everyone practicing today is in a position where they can afford to do this, nor does everyone want to. As I said above it's up to the individual.

At high level application, with multiple attack on normal speed, when attackers are very experimented, nage usually goes at full of his capacities, full power and full speed. Whole point of such exercise is to push him behind his limits. So of course, he can't control very well techniques. He may even execute techniques in very brutal, violent way if it is apropriate to deal with particular attack.
Anything is permitted for tori and for uke in this case, there are no rules in aikido, remember!

Yep.

In such situation, when both, attacker and nage, work at the limit of safe practice, uke's capacity of absorbing more then nage can give is crucial to survive.

This is the crux of it. I'm happy to go along on this understanding. However, I still wouldn't be advising a 14 year old boy to hang in there and take it, I'm not talking about the nerve pinch, I'm talking about the leverage on the shoulder joint or the wrists when locks are applied.

So it is impossible to reach Founder's ideal without learning how to absorb painful techniques, sorry Hanna :)

Yes it is.

Rgds

billybob

09-30-2004, 06:02 AM

Nagababa said: So it is impossible to reach Founder's ideal without learning how to absorb painful techniques, sorry Hanna

i wonder what the founder would say about this? he might laugh and say something about avoiding hazardous situations. i wonder also - is there an analogy in nature for your approach? the founder spoke frequently about not doing anything unnatural, and immersing ourselves in nature daily.

i've seen films of wolves vying for dominance. the loser yields to preserve his life. i've never seen a film of a wolf rubbing his neck raw on a stone to toughen his neck to keep his enemies fangs out of his jugular.

the type of argument i am putting across is intended to carry an argument beyond its present point to where it becomes ridiculous. i am not attacking you, only carrying your thinking to, what i see, is its conclusion.

billybob

batemanb

09-30-2004, 07:16 AM

Yes it is.

Rgds

Me English bad. I should have written no it isn't :)

rgds

Mel Barker

09-30-2004, 07:54 AM

Founder's
Weren't they the bad guys on DEEP SPACE NINE?

Hanna B

09-30-2004, 08:38 AM

So it is impossible to reach Founder's ideal without learning how to absorb painful techniques, sorry Hanna

Szczepan, have you read the thread? I have been advocating a safe training in taking pain all along - not because I find it "necessary" but I find it interesting. Others have been trying to tell me it can not be done safely. Not that I am sure I ever strived for reaching osensei's ideal. Let's start another thread to try and find out which they were...

daniel loughlin

09-30-2004, 09:21 AM

i would just like to say that i only was talking about taking some pain in yonkio not any joint locks at all

NagaBaba

09-30-2004, 04:17 PM

This is the crux of it. I'm happy to go along on this understanding. However, I still wouldn't be advising a 14 year old boy to hang in there and take it, I'm not talking about the nerve pinch, I'm talking about the leverage on the shoulder joint or the wrists when locks are applied.

Rgds
All right, let's say 16 year old ;)
Pain from nerve pinch is a byproduct of normal yonkyo lock. This lock attacks wrist, elbow and shoulder joints.

NagaBaba

09-30-2004, 04:22 PM

Szczepan, have you read the thread? I have been advocating a safe training in taking pain all along - not because I find it "necessary" but I find it interesting. Others have been trying to tell me it can not be done safely. Not that I am sure I ever strived for reaching osensei's ideal. Let's start another thread to try and find out which they were...

ooopppss sorry, wrong person :O I apologize to wake you up from fjord meditation ;)

NagaBaba

09-30-2004, 04:24 PM

i would just like to say that i only was talking about taking some pain in yonkio not any joint locks at all
In yonkyo, as in pretty more other aikido locks there are several joints that are attacked in the same moment. And problem of taking pain looks like more generic imo.

Charles Hill

09-30-2004, 05:47 PM

A lot of people, especially in the early years do not feel what they are doing to uke when they apply the pin, they apply too hard and too quick.

It took me a loooong time to get my ego down to a reasonable size to tell these people verbally to take it easy on my joints. In the dojo where I teach, almost everyone is of beginner level. I find it interesting that after an hour of working with beginners my joints ache much more than an hour of rigourous training with experieced people.

Charles Hill

Rupert Atkinson

10-13-2004, 12:13 AM

Just looked at the PAIN survey on AikiWeb's front page. At the present time, the majority (67%) say no pain is necessary to learn Aikido. To me, that is ridiculous; Aikido ranks amongst the most painful of all martial arts. Where have all these (you?) guys been training?

Sure, the masters can advocate no pain and chuck their ukes around with excellent skill, but is that how they learned what they know? And how many of those ukes are more floppy than firm? And how many of them get more floppier in time rather than firmer and tougher (while remaining responsive)? Seems to me something is amiss. Aikido without pain is Yoga. The pain need not be excrutiating every time, but it needs to be present, or on the edge of being present. All of my teachers have inflicted pain, some a lot, some more than a lot. I have only met one teacher who can put me on the mat with no pain - Ezra, no one else. Yet I know he trained hard when young and has the ability to inflict pain as I have felt that too. Who am I to think that I could do such? For me, it is more of a dream than reality. I will not chase such a dream, I have wasted too much time already. If I am ever to arrive, it will be through hard training, not dreaming. If I don't arrive, so what? Anyway, plenty of time for dreaming when I get older.

One thing that is important is to distinguish between correct and incorrect pain - the right kind does not damage you, the wrong kind does. Good teachers can pile on the technique and pain and not hurt you - strange, but true. The typical beginner trying to do the same will hurt (read, potentially damage) you with their bad technique. It's the same with throws - some can throw you with incredible FORCE yet you just bounce up off the mat smiling - their technique was excellent, enjoyable to receive. Yet others almost break your back by doing it too gently, helping you down even.

67%! Wow!

Bill Brownlow

10-13-2004, 08:59 AM