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Elrond
09-05-2004, 11:39 AM
In most of the films related to the martial arts there are extraordinary movements like standing or fighting in the air which seem impossible to be true. In my culture (a Turk and Muslim) we beleve in creatures called genie (or jinn, gin...) which have the power of lifting or moving us in the air etc., with the help of which these impossible movements become possible. And I know all of the other religions or cultures have similar beliefs. I wonder your points of views about this matter. Can a human really utilize these kinds of creatures during fighting?

SeiserL
09-05-2004, 11:50 AM
O'Sensei believed that Aikido was a gift from the Kami (spirits).

IMHO, you mental and spiritual beliefs can have a profound impact on your training and technique.

But I don't expect them to show up and lift me through the air any time soon. So I drive myself to the Dojo and sweat through the training.

Dancing Heron
09-05-2004, 12:01 PM
If you're trying to say something like 'can a human fly?', I'd say no.
I don't exacly know that much about chi or anything (don't even know if it's specifically connected to your point) but I somehow just can't believe in something like the ability to fly.
I don't think a person can 'summon' some kind of creature that can make you float... Now I didn't meant this as some kind of personal thing against your culture, so don't take this too offensive.

Elrond
09-05-2004, 12:11 PM
So you say that those fighting scenes are impossible to happen ?

tedehara
09-05-2004, 12:43 PM
So you say that those fighting scenes are impossible to happen ?If you've seen any of the behind-the-scene footage from various films, it's quite amazing how they are able to film flying fight scenes. Using wire-work and green/blue screen technology with computer graphics, movies like The Matrix and Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon are able to depict movement that was formerly only described through story-telling.

Many styles of martial arts utilize hopping and leaping to move quickly. For someone who sees such acrobatic movement for the first time, it must seem like the person moves like a an angel or demon. Perhaps in the public mind, such martial arts moves became flying or leaping great distances, due to imagination.

Dancing Heron
09-05-2004, 12:57 PM
So you say that those fighting scenes are impossible to happen ?
Well, I'm not exacly saying it's impossible. It's of course already been used in movies and perhaps they'll discover some new invention to make you float in the air. Heck, I won't even be suprised if there would be a whole new martial arts for fighting in the sky, then (but that's just what I would like to call 'wishful thinking'). I just don't think you can make use of magical creatures to make you float into the sky. I'm not religious or something enough for that.

Nick Simpson
09-05-2004, 01:08 PM
I hate people flying in fight scenes, i want to watch competant, highly skilled fighting, maybe speede up a little bit and slightly more graceful than is humanly possible but I just get bored watching people flying and hihg kicking and wasting their time doing acrobatic kicks etc etc. I would say the majoity of the hand to hand comabt in the first Blade film is an example of good movie martial arts. Chuck Norris takes some beating too, he didnt need wires. Just beer.

kung fu hamster
09-05-2004, 02:30 PM
Can a human really utilize these kinds of creatures during fighting?

Maybe if you had a skateboard as your sidekick you too could miraculously fly through the air - the landing might be a bit rough though... how's your ukemi?

Ever read 'Magic and Mystery in Tibet' by Alexandra David-Neel? Some interesting stuff in there.

shihonage
09-05-2004, 05:41 PM
I especially like the scenes where person #1 kicks person #2, and person #2 flies in STRAIGHT LINE for about 30 meters, and then suddenly falls down.

Jeanne Shepard
09-05-2004, 06:28 PM
I like the Martial arts films whre they both jump STRAIGHT UP IN THE AIR, about 20 feet!!!

JEanne

xuzen
09-06-2004, 12:40 AM
In this MTV age of mass media, the new gen X or Y are partial to extremism. Just look at current MTVs, babes' skin are flawlessly smooth; no freckles no zits etc. Everyone is living in glamour world. This is our current pop culture, this is our current consumer taste. Similarly, in many wuxia movie (oriental kung-fu flick), high kicking, high flying are done with wire to cater to our consumer taste. In this age, I speculate if any director were to do strict martial art without s/effect that movie will be a turkey.

For more realistic MA interpretation, watch documentary. I have yet to see people flying and leaping tall buildings using their MA skills in those documentary. If any human have such abilities, I am sure it would have been documented by now.

In conclusion, I doubt any MArtist can copy what they show on the cinema on their own ability.

Cheers,
Boon.

Elrond
09-06-2004, 09:49 AM
Thanks for your views. However most of you have misunderstood me. Of course I am aware of the wires or etc. But I know people who can utilize these creatures in some works (like travelling between cities in seconds...).Believe me in this matter, because one of those people is my brother. I have just wondered whether these techniques could really be performed with the help of those creatures in question.

happysod
09-06-2004, 10:14 AM
Arif, am I correct in thinking that you can not only prove the existence of djinn (thanks to your brother), but you now want some help in developing suitable fighting techniques using these creatures and are postulating wushu wire work as a possible basis for these techniques?

Other than possibly some very nifty-looking shikko all I can suggest is asking this in another forum as I don't think standard aikido and djinn would work that well. For example you'd have to learn how match your ki not only to your attacker, but also harmonise it with your djinn and multi-djinn use would seriously hamper finding your centre.

Perhaps yellow-bamboo or one of the more esoteric ninja-Ruy's can be more help with this. If all else fails, you may want to try a more modern martial art place such as sherdog to see if they would have any relevant suggestions on how to proceed in your training.

kung fu hamster
09-06-2004, 10:39 AM
Thanks for your views. However most of you have misunderstood me. Of course I am aware of the wires or etc. But I know people who can utilize these creatures in some works (like travelling between cities in seconds...).Believe me in this matter, because one of those people is my brother. I have just wondered whether these techniques could really be performed with the help of those creatures in question.


If you can use a djinn to travel instantaneously to another city, what do you need martial arts for? If someone is attacking you, tell your djinn to beam you up to Timbuktu. For sure, your attacker won't be able to follow you.

markwalsh
09-06-2004, 12:20 PM
I have 20 Euros in my wallet that's your brothers if he can get here and pick it up by this evening :) , saying that, with the state of the rail network I doubt if someone from London could get here by the either.

Your asking us to take quite a lot on trust here Arif, do you have any proof that such an ability is possible? If so, I would like to know how, as even Ryan Air is getting expensive these days.

Mark

frivolouspig
09-06-2004, 05:29 PM
Well I think people can do some pretty cool stuff without the help of spirits or wires, check out http://bilang.com/ The videos on that site are what got me interested in martial arts in the first place.

JasonB
09-07-2004, 11:46 AM
The origin of wire-fu in film is the Chinese belief that you can develop your internal strength to the point that you can perform super-human feats such as flying. This idea is anchored in cultural belief.

In our Western culture we have super heroes that gain their powers as a result of random chance or mysterious outer influences. We enjoy the idea of Superman flying or Spiderman swinging from webs but some people become disturbed when watching wire acrobatics in Kung Fu films. A little understanding of the cultural basis of these fight scenes helps immensely in your enjoyment of these fims.

Here's a good link on the subject. http://www.scene360.com/EDITINGroom_article_fightscenes_02.html

I, for one, have grown bored with the criticism and become particularly annoyed with having to withstand laughing and guffawing while I'm trying to enjoy these films in the theater. You either get it or you don't. If you don't get it then don't go see these films.

Bronson
09-07-2004, 02:32 PM
Believe me in this matter, because one of those people is my brother.

Your brother needs to contact James Randi and take the Million Dollar Challenge (http://www.randi.org/research/index.html).

Bronson

Matt Molloy
09-08-2004, 03:46 AM
Can a human really utilize these kinds of creatures during fighting?

Ah, now those would be the "secret techniques."

Sorry man. Like the previous guy said, there is a million dollars waiting if your man can do the biz.

Personally, I doubt he can. :rolleyes:

Cheers,

Matt.

Stuart Harris
09-08-2004, 06:30 AM
If you want proof of the lesser-spotted shuttle service genie, they're the ones with the yellow oil lamps strapped to their foreheads.

Just kidding. It would be an awesome way to beat the traffic though! :)

Cheers,
Stuart.

Stuart Harris
09-09-2004, 03:49 AM
Oops... Sometimes things don't sound the same on paper as they look in your head. The idea of a taxi operating genie racing between cities with passengers on his carpet beating the 5 0 clock rush - seemed fairly amusing - but, I guess, may be seen as offensive to some.

I hope not. It was never intended in that context. I live in an Arab country, and the cultural differences fascinate me. As much as I find many of the local quirks amusing, many of my Arab friends stare in disbelief as I retell stories/ beliefs from back home. This sharing of foreign (and often strange/ funny) ideas, I find, is one of the wonderful things about living within other cultures.

Turkey (and Greece) will always hold a special place in my heart. Some of my fondest memories come from these coutries. There are many Turks here in Dubai - and a few at our Dojo. Arif, if you're ever in the region, pack your gi and come on over.

Cheers,
Stuart.

Iwan F. Kurniawan
09-09-2004, 04:50 AM
Hi, Arif!

i think it is not a perfect forum to talk about beliefs or even such of religions :) ... to you, seems people here are interested to beliefs or opinion or philosophy or so ... in regards with aikido only.

well, you are free to believe the djin & the possible ability matters of it.
... but please do not be clumsy just because others are free to denied or even make cheap jokes on it!!! :straightf

just post another topics like "how to do rolling technique while handling a jo" or "is aikido = martial art's enlightenment?" .... etc, for a shot? ... and next day you could find hundreds of post threads! ... no worries of cheap jokes & ignorance, a lot of new ideas will be coming up real soon! :cool:

onegaishimasu!

markwalsh
09-09-2004, 09:01 AM
Apologies if I offended anyone, it wasn't meant maliciously and dont think anyone elses posts were either.

Humour often doesn't travel well, especially the brand from the British Isles. We relate to pretty much everything as a joke, and take the micky out of ourselves as well as those we like (this must seem strange). If we genuinely dont like someone we'll just spill their beer. I'll learn!

Thanks to Mr Kurniawan for reminding me.
Mark

Chuck.Gordon
09-09-2004, 09:06 AM
... we beleve in creatures called genie (or jinn, gin...) ... Can a human really utilize these kinds of creatures during fighting?

Umm ... in case you're really serious ... no.

And in case you insist ... prove it.

No myths, no spirits, no magic. Just good training.

Chuck

Elrond
09-09-2004, 09:54 AM
First of all I want to clarify that my brother doesn't travel physically but spiritually (do believe or not, it is your choice). Secondly, those fellows, who tell me that why doesn't my brother come to their places and take their Euros or, utilise his gift in lottery or smthng else..., think they are so smart ( have you ever asked God something like this "please show me yourself once...") . I have learned from this thread that this matter is not something that most of you can understand whether I try to explain or not. And unfortunatelly I have to add that I have expected from you, aikidokas, a more spiritual sort of reflection, mind, belief or whatever you tell.
Anyway, thanks again for your views, and forgive me if I have offended you. (sometimes you have to say what you have to say)

Chuck.Gordon
09-09-2004, 10:40 AM
Arif, you sound sincere, and I doubt anyone has taken offense at your words, but what you propose is pretty far-fetched at best, and somewhat delusional at worst.

have you ever asked God something like this "please show me yourself once..."

When I was younger, yes. It never happened. That, and a lifetime spent seeking, is why I'm not a believer now.

I have learned from this thread that this matter is not something that most of you can understand whether I try to explain or not...

What's to understand? You're proposing that mythological beings not dissimilar to fairies or fox-spirits are responsible for granting or loaning humans fantastic abilities. That's easy enough to understand, but it's not believable by anyone who's paying attention in the 21st century.

I have expected from you, aikidokas, a more spiritual sort of reflection,

Why? One can embrace and practice a system of thought like aikido without necessarily having any belief whatsoever in angels, demons, spirits or gods.

Explore reason. It's liberating.

Chuck

happysod
09-09-2004, 10:49 AM
Psst - wanna buy some pictures of the pixies at the bottom of my garden...?

Am I being offensive ? - yes, probably, but there's a time when you have to say to yourself, am I really going to entertain complete nonsense just 'cos it's on the interweb thingy or am I going to react normally to such arrogant rubbish - in real life (TM) how many of you wouldn't be having that fixed grin/looking for the exits expression now.

Arif - if you're a troll, jolly good show old chap, if not, please stay away from sharp objects.

happysod
09-09-2004, 11:58 AM
OK Jun, I bow to your eminence - I can only make with the sarky remarks, you managed to disappear the entire thread from normal view - respect to the web-sensei :D

Nick Simpson
09-09-2004, 03:51 PM
I know all too well the fixed " grin/looking for the exits expression ", how I hated being captured in conversation by the particular lunatic who made that expression come over my face. Once I thought we were having a perfectly normal conversation about jackie chan films only for him to pipe up that he believed people could fly from mountain to mountain "like on star trek when they teleport", I had to work really hard at not spitting my beer all over :freaky:

Paul.H
09-13-2004, 09:31 PM
I'm probably sticking my neck out here but!!!

Arif, I have a least some belief in what you say. Why I have not met your brother and can't vouch for him personally I myself beleive what you suggest can be done (another looney on the net ,yeah yeah). I would have to admit I read your first post I thought Pixies, Genies, Yeah Right!! However when I read your following thread suggetsing your brother does this Spiritually rather than Physically It immediately came to me that your brother is doing something commonly referred to as Astral Travel. This occurs when your spiritual body or soul (referred to other names depending on religion/beliefs etc) departs your physical body for a period of time (or permanately in the case of death). There are many people around the world who can do this on command (to varying extents) in the right condition.
To the doubters. Science has attempted to prove astral travel exists however has not been able to do so conclusively at this time. Various experiments have been conducted such as a person veiwing an object in their soul/astral body which they can't view physically and been able to acurately describe the object (the results of which could also be attributed to telepathy or clairvoyance) or having the soul/astral body walk past a sulpur screen which has resulted in a image imprint on the sulpur screen the shape of a body (no explanation for that one). There are also many accounts given by persons from all races, religions etc which a remarkedly similar in descriptions. Some of these persons include respected members of the public such as doctors preists etc. Some accounts are also corroberated by another person. I recall one account of a preist who was concerned about a sick workmate (who happened to be in another country) The priest said he had a very vivid vision of travelling to see his sick friend and being by his bedside to comfort him. The priest was able to accurately describe to room his friend lay ill in despite never going to this country or house. The strange thing is his ill freind also mentioned to a carer that his preist friend had come to visit and the times of the alledged visit matched. There are many other accounts of astral travel and some great books out there to read on the subject. Whether you believe in this or not these acoounts make a very interesting read. Personally I don't need any proof as I have very breifly astral travelled myself twice consciously, but cant do it on demand (every one astral travels most nights when asleep however most is not remembered, some flying/falling dreams are supposedly remenants of our astral travels) and have no doubt that what I experienced was real (I assure you what ever it was, was no dream).

Again I have no proof other than to say it was real for me and there are plenty of people with similar experiences. If anyone is interested I will post a few of the more interesting accounts.
It is also interesting that all religions refer to a soul or other named spiritual body which leaves the physical body at times including death. There is also medical evidence (vapour apparitions seen above bodies shortly after death and a measurable lightening of the body upon death which support this). As for the genies or pixies there are accounts of helpers etc (other souls/beings) helping us on these journeys and also upon death (angels etc would fall into this category).

Work calls for now so I have to end my post. I would be interested to hear form any other person who has astral travelled or has a similar experience.

Arif - Can your brother do this at will or on call or does it occur spontaniously?
- any chance your brother could "visit" me. It would freak me out if he could describe my house or other similar experiment.
very interesting indeed.

P.S. sorry if I was hard to follow - tried to cram in info in limited time.

Cheers Paul
Australia

deepsoup
09-14-2004, 04:57 AM
This occurs when your spiritual body or soul (referred to other names depending on religion/beliefs etc) departs your physical body for a period of time (or permanately in the case of death). There are many people around the world who can do this on command (to varying extents) in the right condition.
To the doubters. Science has attempted to prove astral travel exists however has not been able to do so conclusively at this time. Various experiments have been conducted such as a person veiwing an object in their soul/astral body which they can't view physically and been able to acurately describe the object (the results of which could also be attributed to telepathy or clairvoyance) or having the soul/astral body walk past a sulpur screen which has resulted in a image imprint on the sulpur screen the shape of a body (no explanation for that one). There are also many accounts given by persons from all races, religions etc which a remarkedly similar in descriptions.

"Science" doesn't attempt to prove anything, people do. Sometimes those people are doing good science, sometimes their experiments are not so good. Remember cold fusion?

It doesn't matter that the 'travel' is spiritual rather than physical, James Randi still has one million US Dollars for the individual (Arif's brother or anyone else) who can demonstrate this ability.

Sean
x

Paul.H
09-14-2004, 09:28 PM
I won't be putting my hand up for the 1 Million right at this moment. I (to the best of my knowledge) can't prove Astral Travel exists at this time, nor have a desire to (though a mill or two would be nice). One thing I know for sure is that there are still many things we are unaware of or can not prove exist at this time. That does not mean it can't be done or does not exist. Most scientist would agree that what we know and can prove is a mere fraction of what actually exists.

To the people who doubt I have no desire to change your minds in any way however keeping an open mind ask your self the following -
Are you in any way religious? (for the record I consider myself to be spiritual and steer clear of the religion bit)
Do you have some/any belief in a soul or angels etc.
Do you believe a loved relative or other person who has passed on is watching over you in any way.
If you do then is it possble this is related to Astral Travel or the soul leaving the body in some way.
(If you do and can prove it theres a cool million waiting)!!

The founder of Aikido and other great martial artists claimed to be able to see energy (energy taking the form of an attack)moments before the attack occured. The encounter with the naval officer comes to mind when O'Sensei said he saw a white light preceeding the swords path. Do we doubt them!! Some might I myself don't.

Just because the million is yet to be claimed doesn't mean it won't be or that these occurences did not happen.
Thats my two cents.

Cheers Paul

Elrond
09-15-2004, 02:20 PM
"Arif - Can your brother do this at will or on call or does it occur spontaniously?
- any chance your brother could "visit" me. It would freak me out if he could describe my house or other similar experiment.
very interesting indeed."
Paul Harvey

I have heard of astral travel, too; but I don't know whether what my brother does is called astral travel or not, nor I know so much about this matter.
As to your question, my brother does travel with the help of a specialist. As far as I have observed, the specialist tells to the leader of the genie group to take my brother where he wants. And this leader himself or some other genie he commands performs the specialists will. In fact this type of travelling is not something that my brother wants, because after these travels he says that he feels so numb and bad.

yours respectfully

suren
09-15-2004, 08:02 PM
As to your question, my brother does travel with the help of a specialist. As far as I have observed, the specialist tells to the leader of the genie group to take my brother where he wants. And this leader himself or some other genie he commands performs the specialists will.

Any chances that this "specialist" is a hypnotist?
Do you see that group of genies? In that case there is a possibility that this specialist affects both of you.


In fact this type of travelling is not something that my brother wants, because after these travels he says that he feels so numb and bad.

As I understand this "travel" occures against your brother's will and only in the presence of that "specialist", that makes me believe that this person can affect his and maybe your will and consiosness. I know after a session of hypnosys person may feel bad and broken especially if his will resists.

I would suggest to keep away from that specialist and if you return to him against your will (something drives you to him), go talk to another hypnotist who can see if you are under influence of somebody's will.

As for astral travel I have never heard about any genies or any other species involved in it.

Paul.H
09-16-2004, 02:36 AM
Arif,
I would be interested if you could provide some insight into your culture and what you see a genie as being. Forgive my naivety however us westerners think of the genies as being something that comes out of a lamp when rubbed and gives three wishes (as in Aladdin's lamp) and I'm sure this is the wrong or somewhat distorted impression of your cultures beliefs and probably partly explains the generally negative attitude your post received. I am interested to correct my 'Naiveness'
Those that have projected describe feeling both tired or exhausted however others feel energized.

A few cases of projection include - St Anthony of Padua (13th century), While preaching in Limoges, suddenly remembered that he had undertaken to conduct a service in a monastery at the other end of town. He drew his hood over his head and knelt in apparent prayer while the congregation reverently waited. At that moment the saint was said to have been seen by the assembled monks to appear and be heard to read the appointed passage in the office. He then disappeared. Similar statements are made concerning (St)? Alphonse in 1774. Alphonse de lignori, imprisoned at Arezzo, fasted for five days and on awakening on the fifth day stated he had been present at the death bed of Pope Clement the 14th. Those present at the bedside of the dying pope are said to have confirmed his statement, declaring that they had seen him.
(both accounts taken from "A study and practice of astral projection" by Dr Robert Crookall, which is a very interesting read).

Elrond
10-02-2004, 11:26 AM
Suren wrote
" Any chances that this "specialist" is a hypnotist?"

I'm sure that he isn't a hypnotist. I know him since my childhood. He has always interested in these genie matters, even has made a fortune thanks to this interest.


Paul wrote
"I would be interested if you could provide some insight into your culture and what you see a genie as being."

According to Islamic belief, genies are creatures which were created from fire (unlike human which was created from earth and water). They live in a different dimension which human are unable to see.
They have a social life like us, have similar responsilities against God...
However they have some superior features compared to human's. And one of them is that; they can move so fast ( according to some "nearly fast as light " ). Thus they can travel among cities and import news in seconds.
And there are some human who mastered themelves in communicating with the genies. And if he will be able to dominate them, he can command them and utilize some of their features ( getting information from a very distant place or about an event happened before, finding remedies for some sort of ilness which have arised from the other genies, or helping the human spirit wander ),
And I have to add that, inspite of these superior features they are weaker than the human, because in Islamic belief human is the most perfect creature.
By the way they don't come out of a lamp when rubbed and give three wishes. It's just an absurd story.

I hope now you have a much more accurate view about genies.

Cheers

Paul.H
10-05-2004, 08:43 PM
Arif,
Thanks for your reply, my naive western mind know has a little more information and is better for it.

Cheers Paul

PeterR
10-05-2004, 09:02 PM
And I have to add that, inspite of these superior features they are weaker than the human, because in Islamic belief human is the most perfect creature.

That's interesting - how does Islam view imperfection in human nature.

By the way they don't come out of a lamp when rubbed and give three wishes. It's just an absurd story.

So is Little Red Riding Hood but they are both great stories.

Kevin Leavitt
10-06-2004, 12:33 PM
the world may not always be as it seems. Any one remember the earth was flat at one time? Check out String theory. http://www.lassp.cornell.edu/GraduateAdmissions/greene/greene.html

May not prove that Genie's exsist, but certainly it seems plausible that there is more than meets the eye to the universe. Maybe genie's are some peoples way of understanding something that is simply not within the normal human realm of understanding.

I have certainly had moments where I have felt at "one" with things and felt that time, space, or distance are irrelevant.

It is not for me to judge someone if they say they can have genie's tell them information from a long way in lighting speed.

Wait a minute! I do have a genie! it is called the internet! Gotta love those particles or energy man!