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kocakb
08-27-2004, 08:48 AM
Hi to all,
Recently, I am training with a JKDoka, having about 6 years of experience and a black belt and is physically stronger than me. (I am a 3. Kyu yet :rolleyes: )...

He does not like aikido and on his opinion we are too slow on fast and continuing attacks (decided that after watching all of my mpegs)… I don't care much, first of all I know that I am a newbie, and I do aikido just to do aikido. However, for my satisfaction, I want to see that I can, at least, stand on my foot.

The problem is, he strikes too fast, a punch is followed by an other added with kicks…he does not let me to move to his back side, and forces me to use a straight line - stepping back. I am almost able to stop one or two of the yokomen strikes by blocking. I know it is wrong, I should direct it and not block, but the second punch (tsuki or yokomen) follows very fast and I do not have enough time to move. The result the third punch ends on my body…(he smiles thereafter on his victory, which gives me an opportunity to hit back :D )…

I am sure; some of you have also a JKD background. Should I carry stones in my pocket for defense or just run away as fast as I can :freaky: (you know, moving is aikido)

Regards to all and happy training,
Bülent

Lyle Laizure
08-27-2004, 09:43 AM
It seems that newbies to aikido are always challenged in some way shape or form. Whether it is because they enjoy their are so much that they talk about it a lot and invariably someone feels it necessary to challenge your enthusiasim or maybe just because they are new to the art and folks of greater experience in another style feel a need to prove their art is superior, I can't say.

I have no doubt in the long run that you will be able to handle stituations like this. Although there are a few things you can do I am not going to go into that here. What I am going to suggest is that you bring your friend to aikido class.

AsimHanif
08-27-2004, 09:52 AM
Bulent,
if your "friend" is getting his kicks by showing how dominant he supposedly is, he really isn't that good. And I might add, it's not just JKDoers. Anyone can be arrogant including aikidoists. If your "friend" was really training WITH you, he would first slow down and show you how to defend his techniques. That way you both would get better. Sounds to me like he is only interested in massaging his ego.
I am also a boxing trainer and I had a boxer who would beat up all his sparring partners. Because of that, the sparring partners didn't come back to the gym and he had no one to train WITH when he had a big fight coming up. He ended up losing that fight. After the fight, I said to him, "you chased away all your sparring partners, how come you didn't beat up that guy?" He had no answer.
Find someone else to train with.

stern9631
08-27-2004, 10:02 AM
I can understand. How does aikido deal with multiple attacks? ex: a punch followed up with a round kick

We may react with irimi nage and get caught with a round kick. What do you do?

kocakb
08-27-2004, 10:04 AM
Dear Lyle;
may you are right, we do talk too much - or people make us to talk too much...I have taken him to our class and he watched our training 1,5 hours long. I asked him to join to a lesson, but he refused. After our training class, he just said "why should a guy grap your hand ? you (aikidokas) see everything very simple. The fact is not like this, you do..."...He is "not" an arrogant person and is not talking in bad manner, he does not try to harm me while training together. Just a fan of Bruce Lee...

and Jon, irimi nage is really the most effective technique I guess. But he attacks very fast and you know If I answer with an irimi nage as fast, I am afraid of being harmful. But thank all of you for replying...

John Boswell
08-27-2004, 10:17 AM
You say he is not arrogant and not talking in a bad manner, yet how can he judge aikido after watching half of one class?

He has no understanding why we train the way we do.
He has no real experience with someone that has trained in aikido for as long as he has JKD.
He passes judgement and forms an opinion on aikido based on his experience with you, hits you (even if it is a light hit) and you know that isn't a fair opinion of aikido... so why do you defend him?

If he's right, why do you trian in aikido?

The answer is not to carry rocks or do anything crazy or silly to get "better." Continue to TRAIN to get better. Work on your own skill... not against his.

If you do continue to "train" with this friend of yours, look for openings in his attacks. You say he's punching continuously? Is he in a horse stance? Kick him in the jewels! When he blocks that, take that arm and continue the circle and throw him in kaiten nage! Look for openings... but the best opening this guy has is the door leading away from him. He is arrogant. Don't kid yourself.

That's my opinion. Good luck with whatever you choose.

Jordan Steele
08-27-2004, 10:39 AM
I practiced Wing Chun before Aikido so I know what a pain in he ass it can be to scrap with somebody that continuously attacks and protects their centreline so effectively that it is impossible to get around to their back. Understand that in order to effectively apply any technique on a skilled striker they will need to be distracted or "hit" before you can attempt a lock or throw. Also if you want to beat him, get him on the ground and grapple. Unless he has other training, you stand the better chance on the ground.

shihonage
08-27-2004, 01:32 PM
You shouldn't try to control his strikes - control his mind instead.
Don't let your perception of Aikido "SHOULD BE LIKE" make your movements wooden and limited.

Do Bülent Koçak-do, not Aiki-do.
In the process you will eventually manifest "some" principles you internalized from Aikido, but Aikido is about sponteneous, creative, NATURAL adaptation.
Your body and mind are capable of doing a lot more than static Aikido practice.
Stop forcing Aikido techniques where they do not belong in their pristine form, shift back to the very basics.
Fool him, control his mind, throw a couple of punches, a low kick, enter quickly, don't let him have a moment where he isn't confused, deliver atemi in the whatever openings you see.
Grab his clothes, lower your head over your elbows, jerk him off-balance continuously when he tries to strike, disturb his mind, then let go with one of your hands and punch him in the jaw, then enter with whatever throw is doable - the amount of things you can try is ... considerable.

Infamousapa
08-27-2004, 02:05 PM
Well Aikido is different than other arts and you have to understand this.What you are doing is sparring with your partner..THIS WILL NOT WORK ..in Aikido.It is different if your practicing a technique with your partner but to spar is all wrong..In a real situation you would have to be calm and ready to harmonize,Do your way with words towards your assailant and try to cut on the first attack.Different situations ask for different terms.If i sparred with my friends they know i do aikido and it is going to be friendly sparring my aikido will be weak and probably not work..However if its a aggressive foe im up against i would stay calm and push him verbally,mentally and physically to attack me,Therefore I am still calm and he has lost because he aggressed then i will be able to see thru him and his attack..Hence aikido is a spiritual and physical art..

senseimike
08-27-2004, 05:51 PM
Unless you are willing to injure your friend to make your point, let him believe that aikido is ineffective. I have been in simular situations, where you are trying to demonstrate technique and your "friend" resists with all of his might or throws another strike in the mix. While I know that the situation is being shown at about half speed, with less intent my "friend" might not realize this and mistake compation for weakness. I always just say, " You must be right... it doesn't work.", even though we both know better.

SeiserL
08-27-2004, 08:08 PM
Greetings,

I come from a FMA/JKD background (ask your friend about the late Ted Lucaylucay, trained with Bruce and Danny).

Yes, JKD is fast and attacks by combination. Yet even in our early training we slow down in order to help be good training partners. I would agree that most people in Aikido do not know how to handle JKD attacks. Very few system do.

Please remember that Aikido is a "do", a way and not a "jutsu" a combative fighting system.

Let your friend have his ego victory and get back to training.

BTW, we have, on occasion, worked the various Aikido waza off the flow. Worked great

NagaBaba
08-27-2004, 09:34 PM
Very good post Aleksey!!!!!
kocakb read it carefully many times.

And then go practice with your friend as often as it is possible. You have probaly unique opportunity(because your friend is attacking you in friendly manner) to develop spontanouse movements(takemusu aiki) long before all your friends from a dojo. This way is hard, you ego will be broken, you will feel humiliated, but keep going, doesn't matter. Just pray your friend will have still fun, to support his interest buy him few beers :)

After the while(that depends of your own capacity) you will learn how to create situation more confortable for you(again read Aleksey post). don't forget : aikido is dynamique, not static. Use vertical and horizontal dimension, always turn your hips last moment befor impact, and ALWAYS enter irimi. never go back. Crush his center physicaly, with weight of your body and impact of irimi. enter with no mercy into his first attack, so he won't be able to deliver next one.

and most important: work hard on your BODY LANGUAGE. He is reading you as a open book. Hide your intentions until he will not be able to change direction of his attack.

I know it is much more easy to write then to actually do. But I went the same way as you, and believe me, it is posiible. Not every time(yet!!!!) but happens more and more often :) :)

Devon Natario
08-27-2004, 09:37 PM
To me, each art has a set of rules. You can defend yourself with Aikido. You just cant spar or box someone and think youll have mor4e skill than them.

Ive said it before, in Jujitsu class I have grappled with a 3rd Dan in Isshin Ryu and a Shodan in Aikido and I beat them both very easily (This was when I was an orange belt).

I obviously understood that if they took me to their comfortability, I wouldnt stand as much of a chance.

Anyways- the point is, this guy is going to be good at strikes, and youre not unless youve trained in another art. To me, this is why Cross training is very important because I dont like to lack in anything.

xuzen
08-27-2004, 09:40 PM
Hi to all,
Recently, I am training with a JKDoka, having about 6 years of experience and a black belt and is physically stronger than me. (I am a 3. Kyu yet :rolleyes: )...

He does not like aikido and on his opinion we are too slow on fast and continuing attacks (decided that after watching all of my mpegs)…

The problem is, he strikes too fast, a punch is followed by an other added with kicks…he does not let me to move to his back side, and forces me to use a straight line - stepping back. I am almost able to stop one or two of the yokomen strikes by blocking. I know it is wrong, I should direct it and not block, but the second punch (tsuki or yokomen) follows very fast and I do not have enough time to move. The result the third punch ends on my body…(he smiles thereafter on his victory, which gives me an opportunity to hit back :D )…



Dear Bulent,

Just admit that he is a better MArtist. He has done 6 yrs of JKD, a black belter. You are in the kyu stage, you have plenty to learn, but hang in there, one day you will be able to stand on your own. Give him his credit where it is due. However if the JKD practitioner criticised the art as a whole, then maybe he needs to spar with an equivalent experienced aikidoka. Or better yet, have him play around with the Senshusei boys at the Yoshinkan Hombu dojo in Tokyo (I understand that is where the Tokyo Metro police train once a upon a time). :D

Boon.

dan guthrie
08-28-2004, 06:55 PM
Imagine this: you go into a bar and put your sweater on your stool. You go to the men's room and when you come out your sweater is gone and you can see a drunk walking out the door with your sweater. How many JKD kicks does it take to get your sweater back? A simple sankyo gets the drunks attention and your sweater back. JKD sends the drunk to the hospital and your friend to jail. Aikido gives you the ethical option of a nonviolent response.
JKD breaks bones on purpose.

Chris Birke
08-28-2004, 07:02 PM
"JKD breaks bones on purpose."

Ahh, its good to see ignorance is still alive and well. Where did you get these ideas about JKD?

George S. Ledyard
08-29-2004, 01:32 AM
Imagine this: you go into a bar and put your sweater on your stool. You go to the men's room and when you come out your sweater is gone and you can see a drunk walking out the door with your sweater. How many JKD kicks does it take to get your sweater back? A simple sankyo gets the drunks attention and your sweater back. JKD sends the drunk to the hospital and your friend to jail. Aikido gives you the ethical option of a nonviolent response.
JKD breaks bones on purpose.
It's really better for the reputation of Aikido, not to mention your own, to refrain from making statements like this. It's embarrassing.

villrg0a
08-29-2004, 07:24 AM
jeet-kune-do (the way of the intercepting fist)

before i learned the art a punch was just a punch, a kick was just a kick
when i was studying the art, a punch was no longer just punch, and a kick to longer just a kick
now that i know the art, a punch is just a punch, a kick is just a kick.

bruce lee

Tharis
08-29-2004, 10:19 AM
Imagine this: you go into a bar and put your sweater on your stool. You go to the men's room and when you come out your sweater is gone and you can see a drunk walking out the door with your sweater. How many JKD kicks does it take to get your sweater back? A simple sankyo gets the drunks attention and your sweater back. JKD sends the drunk to the hospital and your friend to jail. Aikido gives you the ethical option of a nonviolent response.
JKD breaks bones on purpose.

IMHO....

I've a friend who studies JKD and makes it really clear that they use stages of escalation, which may include bone-breaks, but not necessarily. I see your point about aikido, and agree with you that it's better at de-escalating conflict, but I don't think it's wise to start knocking other arts in the process.

Regarding the original point, and my friend, he seems to agree with the referred JKD that Aikido isn't a very "practical" art to study, in terms of pure self-defense. He still trains in aikido, I think, because he enjoys it and thinks that it teaches things that he could learn from it (this of course being my interpretation, and thus possibly suspect). I think we disagree somewhat on this point, but it's not a big deal. He's great guy to train with and I think I've learned a lot looking at his style/approach to MA.

So, let skeptics be skeptics and focus on what you can learn from them and what they can learn from you, basically taking what you can use from their style and making it your own. I think this is actually one of the tenets of JKD (please correct me if I'm mistaken, anyone who knows better). It's a good principle.

dan guthrie
08-29-2004, 02:57 PM
I mangled my own point. I know almost nothing of JKD. I will try to learn more before I speak on this again.
The event I described happened to a friend of mine and really impressed me. I was trying to give the original poster an alternative argument to "which art is better."

dan guthrie
08-29-2004, 03:39 PM
It's odd how often my good intentions end up tasting like my own feet.

Lyle Laizure
08-29-2004, 05:16 PM
Please remember that Aikido is a "do", a way and not a "jutsu" a combative fighting system.
Aikido is a way but it is still a martial art.

If I answer with an irimi nage as fast, I am afraid of being harmful.
This is a very good point. Mike mentioned this as well. How important is it to make your friend understand that your style is an effective system. It isn't as important as the relationship that could be fractured.

Your friend isn't even willing to try out a class. I would have to agree with John that your friend is arrogant, at least to a small degree. Otherwise I don't beleive he would act the way he does.

CNYMike
08-31-2004, 10:57 PM
Hi to all,
Recently, I am training with a JKDoka, having about 6 years of experience and a black belt and is physically stronger than me. (I am a 3. Kyu yet :rolleyes: )...

He does not like aikido and on his opinion we are too slow on fast and continuing attacks (decided that after watching all of my mpegs)… I don't care much, first of all I know that I am a newbie, and I do aikido just to do aikido. However, for my satisfaction, I want to see that I can, at least, stand on my foot.

The problem is, he strikes too fast, a punch is followed by an other added with kicks…he does not let me to move to his back side, and forces me to use a straight line - stepping back. I am almost able to stop one or two of the yokomen strikes by blocking. I know it is wrong, I should direct it and not block, but the second punch (tsuki or yokomen) follows very fast and I do not have enough time to move. The result the third punch ends on my body…(he smiles thereafter on his victory, which gives me an opportunity to hit back :D )…

I am sure; some of you have also a JKD background. Should I carry stones in my pocket for defense or just run away as fast as I can :freaky: (you know, moving is aikido)

Regards to all and happy training,
Bülent

Hello, Bulent ...

You might want to tell your friend about Sifu Kevin Seaman and Sifu Andrew Astle. I've studied LaCoste Inosanto Kali under them since 1997; they also both hold instructorships in Jun Fan/JKD. (Sifu Andy also received permission from Maha Guru Victor de Thouars to teach the basic elements of Pentjak Silat Serak, and that's where that comes from.)

When I told Sifu Andy I was thinking of adding Aikido to my training regime, did he lecture me on doing something so "ineffective"? No. If anything, he supported and encouraged it. "Go for it!" he said, sounding like he was grinning from ear to ear (we were speaking on the phone at the time). "You'll be a better martial artist." I sometimes think that if he'd been free at the time, he's have shoved me in the dojo door! (I was the reluctant one -- I worried I would be extra pooped at the end of the week.) Sifu Kevin also seemed to approve of the idea when I told him.

Furthermore, right in Sfu Kevin's academy was a sign with principles he wanted his students to adhere to. One of them was, IIRC, I will refrain from criticizing other styles and systems; they all have something to offer. Sifu Dan Inosanto, from whom Kevin and Andy received their instructorships, is also known for saying, "No one art has all the answers, every art has something to offer, study many things and find what's right for you."

I don't know your friend, and I don't know how he came by his JKD. But if it's from an affiliate of the Inosanto Academy, I would be pretty disappointed in him and/or his sifu. May not be my place to say something like that, but if the people I know personally are anything to go by, your friend may not be typical of Jun Fan Gung Fu/JKD people.

And the next time your friend refuses to join and Aikdo class, remind him of something else Sifu Kevin had on his academy's wall: "A closed mind is a wonderful thing to lose."

kocakb
08-31-2004, 11:46 PM
many thanks to all of you, there are really a lot of things to learn.
Let's train...

Michael Meister
09-01-2004, 02:14 AM
I don't know anything about JKD, but I do know those kinds of discussion. I had a very similar one with someone doing something (i forgot the name of the art) which is basically a mixture of everything. His point was, that every martial art would be ineffective in a real fight (except that weird mixture his training in), but what I still don't understand is, why I should let people damage my nose (or worse) over and over again, just to avoid the once in a lifetime a might get in a situation, were I could be hurt in a fight.

On the other hand, I do have a friend doing TKD. It's always fun, discussing MA during lunchtime (I just don't know, why people start avoiding us when we do ;)), comparing strategies and techniques. The important point is, both of us know that there are limits to everything, to what your MA can do, and more important to what you can do. In my opinion, understanding those limits is an important point within MA.

BTW a few months ago, we had a training session, during which the TKDokas showed us some of their techniques, an we some of ours. I don't remember much of what they showed us, but what I do remember is the experience of actually hitting my partner. Something that I feel is lacking in my Ukemi (not the actual hit, but more the strike that is committed to hit).

Ok, it may be a little bit off topic, but it came to my mind, when I read this thread, so I think it's ok to post here.

Nick Simpson
09-01-2004, 07:25 AM
Getting hit is nasty, it hurts and it confuses you, so do the sensible thing and decrease the odds of getting hit, especially kicked. It takes room to swing a punch, even more room to swing a kick in most cases. So get in close straight away and deny your sparring partner the opportunity/room to punch/kick. It's a lot harder to try and move backwards, it can be done if you get the attacker fully commiting to his attack and you move backwards and over extend him, taking him out of his pshere of influence and leaving him off balance and momentarily weak. I wouldnt recomend trying it on a JKD dan grade though, I tried it on a boxer once and got battered, going forward seemed to work ok though.

kocakb
09-01-2004, 08:16 AM
I tried it on a boxer once and got battered, going forward seemed to work ok though.

you are absolutely right..I realized it yesterday. I believed that I am better balanced than him - may be because of loving ko-iriminage - and I steped forwardly instead of stepping back. I was able to walk in and he lost his balance...I tryed it a few more times and as I see, he is not expecting-used to - that kind of an attack.

an other thing, I realized that he is almost trying to hit with a kind of outher yokomen !!! for example if his right food is on the front side, he is swinging his right hand like yokomen but from left to right (out to in)...an attack with the hand you guard, therefore it is too fast. If only I could grap and do an ikkyo ura...he would learn flying around ;)

the day will come :disgust:
happy training to all and thanks.

Nick Simpson
09-01-2004, 08:53 AM
Sounds like hes doing a kind of back-fist/urakken? Nice punch, try using jabs against him.

Tim Gerrard
09-16-2004, 05:29 AM
If you both train together, then ask him to slow down. It sounds like too much 'fighting', trying to prove who's got the better art. Experement, work with each other, ask about each other's weaknesses/openings and maybe both of you will come out better for it.

Tim Gerrard
09-16-2004, 05:30 AM
If you both train together, then ask him to slow down. It sounds like too much 'fighting', trying to prove who's got the better art. Experement, work with each other, ask about each other's weaknesses/openings and maybe both of you will come out better for it. :ai: ;)

ian
09-16-2004, 06:06 AM
JKD really has no form; Bruce Lee was very practical in that he encouraged people to use what worked for them. You can't really beat that, but aikido should be the same. Aikido is principles and not techniques. Sometimes you find JKD practitioners focus on linear strikes. Punch him with a round house, move in, and then see what happens. He is more powerful and more experienced in martial arts than you - why do you expect to have an advantage? Best thing is don't 'do' aikido on him. Just go at him with everything you've got (including chairs and pool cues) and if aikido comes out, well that's what's useful at that time.

CNYMike
09-16-2004, 11:16 AM
.... I realized that he is almost trying to hit with a kind of outher yokomen !!! ....

That would be the back fist. AFAIK, Jun Fan/JKD's backfist is meant to be as quick as possible, with a minium of cocking back. And Bruce Lee also preached that one should keep the strong side, or right side, forward (as opposed to a boxing style stance where you keep the strong side back, although Sifu Dan Inosanto advocates using both leads) so it can be difficult to counter.

for example if his right food is on the front side, he is swinging his right hand like yokomen but from left to right (out to in)...an attack with the hand you guard, therefore it is too fast ....

Exactly. Your best bet is to use your evasive footwark as if it's a yokmen with the other hand, because from your persepctive, it's coming at the same angle. Defend the line, not the strike.

If only I could grap and do an ikkyo ura...he would learn flying around ;)

If your friend has actually had JF/JKD training and not just read a book or watched a video, then there is a good chance he will know about grappling. Jun Fan is also about being comfortable at all ranges of fighting, form kicking distance down to grappling and ground fighting. So you try to go for a joint lock, you could find yourself thrown or in a choke and wondering what the **** happened.

Bad idea.

Best thing you could do right now is work on your footwork. Get off the line, get both hands up. He uses the backfist, treat it as a yokmen from the opposite hand. If you can then FIND something, an opportunity for a throw or a lock, go for it, but don't go in INTENDING to do a particular technique -- that will get you clobbered. See as a chance to practice against different attacks, as well as learn how to handle combinations.

You could also renew your invitation to your dojo, and remind your friend that the followers of Bruce Lee's lineage, such as my Kali instructor, who also holds a JKD instructorship, embrace cross-training in ANYTHING. That's why Sifu Andy not only supported but encouraged my getting back into Aikido. Bruce Lee said, "Absorb what is useful; reject what isn't." But AFAIK, he was probably the only person who could determine that just from looking at something. It would be more in accordance with JF/JKD if he joined your dojo, actually studied Aikido, and then over time, found what's in there that he can add to his own bag of tricks. It wouldn't be Jun Fan Gung Fu, but it would be part of his JKD arsenal. Something to rhetorically jab him in the ribs with.

CNYMike
09-16-2004, 11:18 AM
If you both train together, then ask him to slow down. It sounds like too much 'fighting', trying to prove who's got the better art. Experement, work with each other, ask about each other's weaknesses/openings and maybe both of you will come out better for it. :ai: ;)

I agree, wholeheartedly. Jun Fan/JKD people should embrace cross training. You can both learn from each other. You'd be doing O Sensei and Bruce Lee proud if you did that. :)

kroh
09-16-2004, 12:28 PM
Hey there All...

I am a student of Jun Fan/ eet Kune Do in Rhode Island under Raffi Derderian (lineage Lee-> Inosanto-> Seaman-> Derderian). I'll throw in a couple of insights (take what you will as my two cents is sometimes not even worth that much).

Scezepan Jaczuk stated that you have a rare opportunity here and he is right. Your JKD friend will probably fight very unorthodox and if he is worth his salt as a training partner, he will demonstrate the strengths and weaknesses of what he is doing so that you can leanr to defend against and apply said techniques.

Jordan Steel also made a good point. Some one who applies rapid attack methods will not just stand there after you have applied a technique and allow it. You must use atemi waza to strike and distract your opponent in order to steal his balance. Remember, just because he thinks aikido is defensive doesn't mean it has to be.

Michael Galager who trains with my teachers teacher, will testify that any JKD guy will have an open mind and be willing to take in new prinviples to apply to their own fighting theories. JKD is not a hodge podge martial art, so not everything works within it's frame work all the time. Sometimes things have to be adapted. The main thing we can do is learn from one another.

One of the guys i train with on occasion is named Joe Pomfret. He is a MMA fighter and an incredible grapler. One of the things he says all the time is to make sure that you turn every one of your opponents movements into a mistake. If you keep them off balance, your attacks are more effective as you are attacking their attacks from a postion of strength.

IMHO, keep training withthis guy as you will learn alot about what works and what needs work.

Thank you very much for your time and good luck with your training.

Regards,
WalT

Chris Bull
09-16-2004, 02:32 PM
.

You could also renew your invitation to your dojo, and remind your friend that the followers of Bruce Lee's lineage, such as my Kali instructor, who also holds a JKD instructorship, embrace cross-training in ANYTHING.

Yup, completely agree.

Your friend's criticism of Aikido seems to go against the JKD philosophy -

"The perfect way is only difficult for those who pick and choose. Do not like, do not dislike ; all will then be clear. Make a hairbreadth difference and heaven and earth are set apart; if you want the truth to stand clear before you, never be for or against. The struggle between "for" and "against" is the mind's worst disease."

Bruce Lee, Tao of Jeet Kune Do

Notice too that Ikkyo is in the Tao of Jeet Kune Do. I know it's a common technique in many MA's, but this seems like the Aikido version given the shomen-uchi attack and the tenkan. Anyway, the point is that Bruce Lee took the time to at least watch - probably practise - Aikido and was able to take something from it.

Cheers,
Chris

CNYMike
09-16-2004, 10:09 PM
.... Notice too that Ikkyo is in the Tao of Jeet Kune Do. I know it's a common technique in many MA's, but this seems like the Aikido version given the shomen-uchi attack and the tenkan ....

What page? (he asked, hoping no one actually notices he never read his copy)

batemanb
09-17-2004, 02:00 AM
Stop competing with him. All the time you are trying to prove that Aikido is better, you are in competition. If he doesn't want to invest any time in studying the art, he has little chance of understanding it, there's absolutely no need for you to try and prove it to him, it's a waste of your energy. Let him get on with his thing, you carry on training, one day things willl be different.

regards

Bryan

Chris Bull
09-20-2004, 03:51 PM
What page? (he asked, hoping no one actually notices he never read his copy)

Well I don't know how much versions there are of the book, but in mine it's on page 123.

There are a couple of pages of drawings called "Studies on Judo and Ju-Jitsu", and it's right at the end of those.

stuartjvnorton
09-20-2004, 09:10 PM
But he attacks very fast and you know If I answer with an irimi nage as fast, I am afraid of being harmful.

There's some of the problem.
He can pull his technique easier than you can pull yours because yours interacts with his body more.
You pull the technique so he doesn't end up on his head & he says it didn't work.
So you're playing in his sandbox & ultimately doomed to failure.

But if you can ignore his chest-beating, you can learn quite a lot in the long run.

CNYMike
09-21-2004, 09:13 AM
Well I don't know how much versions there are of the book, but in mine it's on page 123.

There are a couple of pages of drawings called "Studies on Judo and Ju-Jitsu", and it's right at the end of those.

Thanks!

heyoka
09-21-2004, 11:06 AM
Stop competing with him. All the time you are trying to prove that Aikido is better, you are in competition. If he doesn't want to invest any time in studying the art, he has little chance of understanding it, there's absolutely no need for you to try and prove it to him, it's a waste of your energy. Let him get on with his thing, you carry on training, one day things willl be different.

regards

Bryan

I agree with this. Also, in reference to the bar scenario on the previous page, I think the best advice is to just stop going to bars.

All is well. :)

CNYMike
10-03-2004, 09:16 PM
Well I don't know how much versions there are of the book, but in mine it's on page 123.

There are a couple of pages of drawings called "Studies on Judo and Ju-Jitsu", and it's right at the end of those.

Got a new copy of "Tao of Jeet Kune Do" (meaning my copy will soon pop up. :) ) and found the drawing you mentioned. It is on page 123. The three little guys at the bottom are doing shomenuchi ikkyo, but there's two little guys doing what looks like the nikkyo pin. No caption to confirm it is Aikido, but one of the little guys is wearing a hakima. Wonder what the original poster's buddy would make of that, though? evileyes

villrg0a
10-03-2004, 11:21 PM
Try to learn more about parying. IMHO even though your late on your footworks but good in parying he may have some difficulties touching you. Also remember that parying is not a block, it could be a prep for trapping, grabs, interception, and perhaps many more.... good luck!

kocakb
10-04-2004, 09:34 AM
thank all of you for your posts...since I've posted this thread, there are some changes in my opinion. At least, I have realised that he is not as fast as I thought. He seemed to me very strong at the beginning but I saw that he looses his balance very easy. Only thing I have to do, is "not" stepping back. Not standing in his circle. I know, he is a black belt and me a blue for one week, but I don't care anymore about his thoughts.

He came to my Kyu test last week. After the test, while we were walking, he showed me a high wall and said "you should climb to the wall 50 times per day, to be effective without kicks in a fight"...I did not reply; you aikidoka's, you know that there is no need to reply. I am happy to stand on my foot. On both of them...

greatings from Istanbul and happy training
B.

Sanshouaikikai
06-06-2005, 11:30 PM
This a great thread! I'm a JKD practitioner myself and have been one for 10 years before I just got into aikido. Everything you guys are saying and what not are pretty good and the thinking is relevant...except for the one guy who said to throw stuff at the JKD dude! I'm sorry...but that kind of strategy wouldn't work on any JKD guy...or at least on me! Also...one thing I find suspect about the thread starter's friend is that he's a black belt in JKD? Unless this guy's JKD is modeled more after one of the other styles or elements of JKD which encompasses a budo format which has coloured belts...but other than that...Bruce Lee didn't believe in budo or belt/sash rankings or whatever! He found that stuff irrelevant...and to be honest...I do to! However...if that's not the case...then...this guy's just pulling a fast one on you, if you know what I mean? LOL!

CNYMike
06-07-2005, 10:45 AM
..... Bruce Lee didn't believe in budo or belt/sash rankings or whatever! He found that stuff irrelevant...and to be honest...I do to! .....

On the other hand, Sifu Kevin Seaman, who, remember, has instructorship from Sifu Dan Inosanto, once explained how he decided to award sash ranks to reward people for their effort. He asked Sifu Dan if he could do it, and Sifu Dan said, "Sure" (or word to that effect). "And that was good enough for me," Sifu Kevin finished.

Feel free to take it up with him if you don't think he shouldn't have done it. :p ;)

John Boswell
06-07-2005, 03:47 PM
Imagine this: you go into a bar and put your sweater on your stool. You go to the men's room and when you come out your sweater is gone and you can see a drunk walking out the door with your sweater. How many JKD kicks does it take to get your sweater back? A simple sankyo gets the drunks attention and your sweater back. JKD sends the drunk to the hospital and your friend to jail. Aikido gives you the ethical option of a nonviolent response.
JKD breaks bones on purpose.

Actually, if I was foolish enough to leave my sweater unattended, or at least asking the bartender to keep an eye on it for me... then I'm the fool, not the thief.

Not to mention the fact... it's a stupid sweater! What? 10, 20, 30, 40 bucks at Dillards? Big deal. Go buy another one. The guy obvioulsy needs it more than you do, or he wouldn't be "stealing" something you left alone in the first place!

You really wanna lock up the poor guy in Sankyo for a piece of clothing? Sheesh... let it go! :p

Sanshouaikikai
06-07-2005, 09:21 PM
I wouldn't have problems with them awarding sash ranks in JKD or belt ranks...I personally don't think it's appropriate because it "systemizes" the art even more, you know? Of course...if an instructor wants to do it or whatever and Sifu Inosanto says it's fine...then...that's okay, you know? Just a question though, what would be the requirements to make rank in JKD? ; )

Dominic Toupin
06-08-2005, 03:45 PM
Take a look at this video. It contains a lot of things not related to this subject but It shows how aikido can be use in sparring.

http://www.yoseikancanada.ca/v_yo_qt.html

Randathamane
06-15-2005, 07:07 AM
Hi to all,
Recently, I am training with a JKDoka, having about 6 years of experience and a black belt and is physically stronger than me. (I am a 3. Kyu yet :rolleyes: )...

He does not like aikido and on his opinion we are too slow on fast and continuing attacks (decided that after watching all of my mpegs)… I don't care much, first of all I know that I am a newbie, and I do aikido just to do aikido. However, for my satisfaction, I want to see that I can, at least, stand on my foot.

The problem is, he strikes too fast, a punch is followed by an other added with kicks…he does not let me to move to his back side, and forces me to use a straight line - stepping back. I am almost able to stop one or two of the yokomen strikes by blocking. I know it is wrong, I should direct it and not block, but the second punch (tsuki or yokomen) follows very fast and I do not have enough time to move. The result the third punch ends on my body…(he smiles thereafter on his victory, which gives me an opportunity to hit back :D )…

I am sure; some of you have also a JKD background. Should I carry stones in my pocket for defense or just run away as fast as I can :freaky: (you know, moving is aikido)

Regards to all and happy training,
Bülent


Main assumption of aikido is that the attack is hell bent on First intention striking. That is " i am going to hit you with this one- all my strength and energy is going into it and it will land" E.G hay maker... This is where things start to fall apart and become undone. Aikido is not designed to deal with jabs and kicks seem none existent... My only possible advice is to think weapon or to cross train.

Think weapon- Cut up shomen as you would to parry with the bokken moving in- it is possible that this cation could catch him off guard as he already expects you to go backwards.

Sorry chaps- but this is something that aikido does not cope with well. hope you find a solution soon.

aikigirl10
06-15-2005, 09:21 AM
when you are practicing jeet kun do , do jeet kun do , when practicing aikido , do aikido . If there is ever a time to mix the 2 then it will come unexpectedly. This is what i have learned from mixing martial arts.

hope this helps
-paige