Leaving the Dojo

[Please visit our sponsor:]

[villrg0a]

What do you think about this guys?

An active student (sempai), spent considerable amount of time in practice, have contributed a lot to the dojo in terms of exposure, advertising, exhibition, local and international affiliation, felt his time-in-grade as well as his efforts are not being recognized by the Dojo instructor finally decided to leave his master. But has a heavy heart doing so because he knows his master depended on him, administration wise. This student on the other hand wants progress, and he felt he would not have a future with the current dojo.

Same student approached another sensei, explained his problem. Sensei being new in the area, said I will help you if you help me set-up my dojo here. Student says yes, goes for testing but has not yet formally informed his other sensei.

Question:

1. Is leaving his old sensei justifiable?
2. Should he approach his old sensei and tell him the truth or leave and tell lies about the real reason for his leaving?
3. Can he do his resignation in writing or better personal?

[aikidoc]

I think the most courteous thing to do if he is going to leave is to let the former sensei know. Especially, if he is testing-this will get back to his former sensei.

As to justifiable, I think people have to make their choices. Some sensei for whatever reason don't seem to recognize students appropriately. Sometimes other students are put ahead for whatever reasons. If the person feels they are not being treated fairly, although it is subjective and should be discussed with their sensei, then they are not happy and need to seek a situation that they feel recognizes their skills and efforts. It's a tough call.

[Hanna B]

1. Is leaving his old sensei justifiable?
I agree with John.Everyone will do what they feel is best, I do not think it needs to be justified by others looking in from outside. If he feels he should leave, it is probably best so.

2. Should he approach his old sensei and tell him the truth or leave and tell lies about the real reason for his leaving?
It will be difficult to do it, but it is much better to tell him and be upfront with why.

3. Can he do his resignation in writing or better personal?
It is better in person... but if it is difficult, writing will do.

[Lyle Laizure]

felt his time-in-grade as well as his efforts are not being recognized by the Dojo instructor

I think this is something that should be discussed between the student and the sensei. Once they have discussed the situation then he can make a decision to leave or stay. It sounds like though the student has already made his decision. If he wishes to save any kind of relationship with his previous sensei then he should, in person, discuss everything.

[Devon Natario]

1. Is leaving his old sensei justifiable?
Indeed. We must all make our own decisions in life, even in the arts. Leaving without a word to his Sensei in my opinion is rather rude. But sometimes people do not want to confront others, especially when they know it may bother that person. But he may find that, the Sensei really does appreciate him, and there were other reasons why the promotion has not taken place. This may help in the growth of the student to approach the Sensei.
2. Should he approach his old sensei and tell him the truth or leave and tell lies about the real reason for his leaving?
Approach. Once can not achieve greatness in spirit by lying and deceiving. I know that sounds awfully spiritual, but to leave unfinished business in the arts bother people sometimes as well for long periods of time. The Sensei has passed down knowledge to this student, taken the time to show the student things he has learned, the least the student could do is approach and tell the truth.
3. Can he do his resignation in writing or better personal?
If it is that big of a deal I suggest writing it out on an e-mail or something, and then maybe meeting in person.

-I have done this before. I left an Isshin Ryu Karate Sensei because I felt I wasn't progressing or learning enough. I approached him and discussed why I was leaving. I think I had been there only a mere six months.

He was angry about it. He went off on me, telling me how much I had learned and how much I had progressed etc etc. He then told me that I wouldn't find another place to train in that area (Sierra Vista, AZ) that I could learn any more than what he was talking, etc etc.

Needless to say I ended up finding a Jujitsu instructor that was teaching out of his garage and I ended up helping him teach at his first official dojo years later.

I thought I would show my experience with quitting in case you wanted to know if anyone else has gone through what you are asking about. I have... It's a weird predicament to be in, and I only trained for six months.

[senseimike]

A situation like this requires a lot of thought. If the student decides to leave, it must be because he wants to, not because someone else justifies it. I have heard of splits like this, and they are never pretty. If the separation does happen, it has to be a clean break from the other dojo or organization. I don't think that much will be salvaged from the relationship, there might be a lot of hard feelings. The best way to handle this would be in person, sometimes doing it in writing seems like the coward's way out, even if it's not meant in that way.

[maikerus]

It's difficult to sit down and discuss issues like these with your instructor or with anyone else. Feelings, especially strong feelings about something you care about are so very personal that even the thought of discussing the relevant points as they affect you makes you feel vulnerable. It is far easier to say nothing and to let the problems and the anger/frustration accumulate over time until there is no other choice but to explode or do something drastic like quit.

I find that most of the problems I face in life as they relate to "politics" or "general unhappiness" or "frustration" could probably have been resolved far earlier if people would just communicate their feelings and trust that two adults can have a serious discussion about a serious and personal matter without intending to verbally harm the other person.

Unfortunately we all have a tendency to let this stuff build and then we explode. If we end up talking it is often talking in anger or talking against something someone else cares about and then we get anger thrown back against us. This isn't very aiki, but it is often the case. Devon's example above is very unfortunate, and sadly, probably the way most of these things go.

1. Is leaving his old sensei justifiable?

Its probably gone too far not to leave. But really that is a decision that should be made after talking to the instructor.

2. Should he approach his old sensei and tell him the truth or leave and tell lies about the real reason for his leaving?

Truth.

3. Can he do his resignation in writing or better personal?

This is personal. A written letter would just distance the problem and there would be no "closure" for either of them.


--Michael

[villrg0a]

John, Hanna, Lyle, Devon, Mike & Michael

Thank you all. You've been very straight and honest with your answers/suggestions, really appreciated. Now to make things a little bit more complicated, an additional question please.

Since the STUDENT was dealing with other local organizations, etc.etc., the dojo instructor issued an unofficial shodan ID and certificate to the student (coz the dojo currently has none, plus the fact that sensei went on a leave for 2 mos and sempai took care of things) who is on 2nd going to 1st kyu. Student is authorized to declare the BB outside the dojo, wears the belt during exhibitions (student really is not bothered by anything else in his mind coz he knows he has done his time, he feels this BB is actually long due) until one day the student realized the complications involved. People started asking how come you wear black outside the dojo and you wear another color inside (coz sensei does not permit the student to wear the BB inside the dojo- as it was not officially announced). Student appoach sensei and requested that it be declared officially or give test , sensei said yah yah we will do that, but it never happenned. So here are the questions - please tell me what you think?

A. Since student has decided to leave, should he return the unofficial certificate?
B. If you were the student and the sensei says, dont leave I'll make it official now, what would you say?

[DaveO]

Oopah - that's a weird one.
OK - here's my take: I assumed in the earlier post that the student was 1st going onto BB. At which point I would've said: "Turn down any 'conditional' belt and state - in no uncertain terms - that if he's good enough for a 'conditional' belt; he's good enough for the real thing."
BUT the student's a 2nd.; and that complicates matters - skill and time or not; I don't know how well a second jumping to Shodan would go over within the local community.
At this time; I really need to know exactly how long the student has been doing aikido; with what frequency; what his focus in the art is and exactly why - besides time in - he feels he should be a Shodan.
All that being said; I'd really like to know what the Sensei's idea is as well - making a 'conditional' yudansha must be one helluva lot more complicated than just promoting a deserving candidate; for all the awkward questions the student has to answer; he's gonna have to answer a lot more.

:)

[David Yap]

A. Since student has decided to leave, should he return the unofficial certificate?
B. If you were the student and the sensei says, dont leave I'll make it official now, what would you say?

Hi Romuel,

In situations mentioned in your first post, IMO the student has been exploited by the first teacher and then brings his "problem" to the second teacher who sees an opportunity to exploit the same. It seems like the guy didn't learn or just intend it that way for personal reason .

As for the answers:

A. If he feels that he merits the shodan in terms of ability and understanding of the art, then he should keep the certificate. (The sensei award him the cert unofficially but yet doesn't grade him - is obviously holding back the student).

B. I would leave anyway but after he had made the cert official. (Equate it with an employment situation, you get an better offer from a prospective employer who merits your qualifications and experience; you inform present employer and he then proceed to match the same offer. Would you stay? Knowing that he didn't want to give you a pay raise in the first place; or he is buying time until he finds a replacement for you?)

Just my two sen

Regards

David

[maikerus]

That does pose a problem, doesn't it.

I don't care so much about the 2nd to Shodan thing since that is within the purview of the instructor.

I also think these two questions should probably have occurred in the opposite order.

A. Since student has decided to leave, should he return the unofficial certificate?

I'd say keep the certificate because he was awarded it, but wherever he's going explain the situation and do the test again. If he's already qualified then doing the test again shouldn't be a problem.

B. If you were the student and the sensei says, don't leave I'll make it official now, what would you say?

The choice to stay really shouldn't depend on the state of the certificate since the original issue was on his value to the instructor not being recognized. That issue is the one that needs to be addressed and discussed between instructor and student. This is what should determine the leaving or not leaving (and then to question A)

Of course being awarded and "official" black belt is on way of being recognized, but unless all the other little recognition signs are also there I feel that the "official" belt really wouldn't be anything other than a bribe at this point.

It occurs to me that these are just my thoughts as a bystander. It's easy for me to look in from the outside and say "try this" or "here's an idea for ya". We have to remember that we cannot truly understand the relationship these people have and whether they are truly looking for resolution or separation. In the end we can only give advice and offer "thought-bytes". The student must be the one to take all of their idea and possibly some of ours and come up with the best solution for them.

I wish them luck and wisdom in this ordeal.

cheers,

--Michael

[villrg0a]

At this time; I really need to know exactly how long the student has been doing aikido; with what frequency; what his focus in the art is and exactly why - besides time in - he feels he should be a Shodan.
All that being said; I'd really like to know what the Sensei's idea is as well - making a 'conditional' yudansha must be one helluva lot more complicated than just promoting a deserving candidate; for all the awkward questions the student has to answer; he's gonna have to answer a lot more.

:)

Hi Dave

Here is the answer. Student has already 26 months on his time, 12 sessions per month, 3 hours per session or 36 hours per month or a total of 936 hours. Student spent 11 months on 3rd kyu. I would say his focus is in the proper execution, not the finished product. He wanted his techniques done based on aiki principles, and not a mirror of his sensei's form. Student wanted to understand the principles behind the exercises as he knows they have applications, and is not contended performing them beautifully without understanding fully the mechanics behind them...

On the otherside of the river, sensei has hesitations because other sempais have been there before the subject student but was kind'a off and on in attendance. Subject student was very active and never missed a session. Sensei also has hesitations as he fears students will leave him once they attain the shodan rank.

[villrg0a]

A. Since student has decided to leave, should he return the unofficial certificate?

I'd say keep the certificate because he was awarded it, but wherever he's going explain the situation and do the test again. If he's already qualified then doing the test again shouldn't be a problem.

Hi Michael,

The certificate wouldnt mean a thing if goes for testing again. If he takes the certificate with him, then he does not need to go for a test.

Note: Student is moving in a new dojo with the same affiliation. New sensei already knows the certificate story, that's why he's going for a 1st kyu test, if lucky if could also go for the shodan exam.

Regards
Mel

[villrg0a]

Hi Romuel,

In situations mentioned in your first post, IMO the student has been exploited by the first teacher and then brings his "problem" to the second teacher who sees an opportunity to exploit the same. It seems like the guy didn't learn or just intend it that way for personal reason .

Good point here David, I think you hit the magic word "EXPLOITED". But in fairness to the sempai, i think he really means to help out. It makes sense taking the certificate, after its been made official and then leave. That way, sempai does not need to go for a new testing in the other dojo. You are also right, if old sensei makes it official, he's just bribing the sempai..... , now let's see what others have to say...

Regards
Mel

[maikerus]

The certificate wouldn't mean a thing if goes for testing again. If he takes the certificate with him, then he does not need to go for a test.



Hi Mel,

You are absolutely right from the "official" certificate point of view.

I should have been more clear. I was thinking more along the lines that it was something that was awarded to him by this instructor and whatever the outcome he might want to keep it.

The point I meant to make was that this was awarded to him and that cannot and should not be changed. Even if he has to take a test at the same dojo or another for official rank, this is still something that was earned and he can take pride in.

My guess is that how much this weird/temp/whatever certificate means really depends on how this whole relationship turns out.

Another thought is that giving it back in defiance now might be regretted later.

cheers,

--Michael

[villrg0a]

Thanks Michael, so you're suggesting to keep the certificate. Thank you so much for your input. I think you have a very good point of not giving it back in defiance - sensei signed it, issued an id to go with it, it only means that deep inside him he knows that the sempai is worth his signature, and is worthy of the unofficial promotion. I just cant figure out why sensei does not want to declare or annouce it. Regards - Mel

[villrg0a]

Thank you all for your inputs. Problem's solved the aikido way, everybody on win-win situation.

A. Old sensei did not allow sempai to leave, sempai will be graded and tested for BB -
B. New sensei will be introduced to old sensei by sempai.
C. Sempai will arranged to tie-up the two dojos together under one roof in alternate schedule
D. Sempai will have the blessing and the chance to work in the 2 dojos thus enabling him to polish his skills with the help of 2 senseis.

This is the power of AIKIWEB, thank you all again!

Regards
Mel

[happysod]

why is the theme-tune of "Soap" starting to run through my head after reading this thread?

Rom, glad you found your two dojos, I'll be interested to see what name you guys come up with (The Aquarius/dry-land dojo perhaps?)

[villrg0a]

Ian

He-he-he, you tuned in late. Sempai is hoping to get a big place and call it something like a martial arts center, where 2 aiki dojos, 1 TKD, and 1 Shotokan to share the rent.

[Hanna B]

Two aikido dojos under one roof? Sounds like problem to me.

[villrg0a]

Hanna, sempai said on alternate schedules? what problems do you see? Pls share your thoughts. :)

[Lyle Laizure]

Two aikido dojos under the same roof. That is interesting. I currently operate my own school, visit my sensei's school and another school very regularly. (The other school is operated by another of my sensei's students) That being said I can't imagine any combination of the three of us operating under the same roof. It is an interesting idea though. I would be very interested how this works out.

[George S. Ledyard]

In the fifteen years my dojo has been open I have had three ot four people approach me with similar complaints who wanted to join our dojo. In every case the student turned out to be a problem. They had inflated ideas of how good they were and how hard they had trained. They were coming to me because they (mistakenly) thought I might be an easier way to get ahead.

In one case, I had a student come and train with me and he recounted his relationship with his teacher. In that case I felt that he would be justified and much better off to have left his teacher yet he didn't do so. He has remained a senior student of this teacher to this day.

So, it is impossible to say from the info provided which kind of student you are. But with this in mind, I wouldn't go into a new dojo and tell the teacher that this was why I was looking to join. This is just like going to a job interview and telling the prospective employer what a jerk your former boss was and how you couldn't get along... Danger! Danger! Danger!

If someone in this position is indeed leaving for the reasons mentioned, the appropriate thing to do would be to give back the certificate (you don't want to have a certificate from someone with whom you don't want to be associated), write a thank you letter to the former teacher thanking them for all their effort, deliver that letter in person and inform the teacher of your decision to leave and then go train with the teacher with whom you wish to be associated. There is no need to go over the reason for your leaving with anyone (just as you wouldn't in a job interview or if you did you'd stick to the standard bromides like "looking for greater opportunity and increased responsibility".

It sounds like the Aikido community in which you live is small. Don't make things hard for youself by developing enmity with any teacher. If the old teacher starts to bad mouth you, it will only reflect badly on him if your behavior has been approriate. The secret is to make sure that you are a model student at the new place.

[George S. Ledyard]

Two aikido dojos under one roof? Sounds like problem to me.
Well, if it works, ok. But I have never heard of something like this. Prehaps your original instructor is very senior so the second Sensei doesn't mind joining the two dojos? It's a unique solution alright but I'd be wary. Seems like a minefield to me.

[Chris Li]

Well, if it works, ok. But I have never heard of something like this. Prehaps your original instructor is very senior so the second Sensei doesn't mind joining the two dojos? It's a unique solution alright but I'd be wary. Seems like a minefield to me.

I've seen it many times in the Tokyo area, mainly because space tends to be limited. Seems to work out OK.

Best,

Chris

[Hanna B]

Hanna, sempai said on alternate schedules? what problems do you see? Pls share your thoughts. :)
I see competition issues. One of my previous teachers was of the opinion that it was better to share space with a karate dojo than a jujutsu dito; karate and aikido does not compete for the same students, which aikido and jujutsu does to a certain extent. Well, what about aikido and aikido...?

Who gets more students, and why? Can students transfer freely inbetween dojos? I mean, I took the beginner's class in dojo A but now the schedule in dojo B fits me much better... I do not suppose the Japanese would even think that way, but we westerners do. If many students change from dojo B to dojo A, than the B people might accuse the A people of stealing students. Well, not in the best of worlds, but...

[villrg0a]

thanks for the tokyo info Chris

Hi George
Sempai was willing to go for a test with the new sensei, if he failed at least he knows he's not ready yet and will willingly accept it. Sempai wanted the old sensei to test him or award it publicly. You are right, the aikido community where sempai is situated is rather small, and he should have really kept his mouth shut. But things have already been said....poor sempai.

I'll keep you guys posted on how this joining under one roof turns out - I will meet with sempai tomorrow. Thanks again George, that was a very juicy input, it sounded very professional and matured. Cheers!

[villrg0a]

Thanks Hanna - currently old sensei is sharing his dojo space with karate guys. some of them opted to cross train in aikido, no problem with karate sensei. a jujitsu dojo operating beside old sensei's dojo is sharing their space with another aikido group. they seem to get along well (time mgmt), and does not seem to affect old sensei's dojo as they are on different schedules too.

But aikido and aikido, hmmmm let's see.... If I am the student and my schedule fits in dojo A, no matter how good the dojo B is, I still wont be able to attend sessions on B because time does not permit me. Anyways, point taken and noted. I'll keep you posted. I appreciate your thoughts. Thanks :)

[gi_grrl]

Thank you all for your inputs. Problem's solved the aikido way, everybody on win-win situation.

A. Old sensei did not allow sempai to leave, sempai will be graded and tested for BB -


I'm glad the problem worked out, but if I were the student, I would be asking myself and my Sensei exactly what it is he wants me to learn / master in order to pass the test. Grades are not awarded for time spent training, for help around the dojo or administrative tasks. Grades are awarded for ability. So find out what abilities are needed.

If I was awarded a grade for anything but ability, I would feel insulted. I trust my Sensei to judge my improvement because he is vastly more experiences than me.

On the other hand, if he makes requests of me for administrative assistance, then I choose to say 'yes' or 'no' and expect that either choice will have no effects on my training or grading.

:)