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Ian Williams
08-23-2004, 09:52 PM
Our sensei was teaching us a variation on what we call the "wrist hand throw" last saturday. He was teaching the technique as a demonstration for a senior student on the correct way to teach a new technique (if that makes sense).
Anyway he went on to mention that the same technique is in Aikido, but has been modified to remove the "pain" element in the final stage.

"Our" JJ version of it involves cranking down on the rest, and rotating it sideways, which puts intense strain on the wrist and forces the person to fall. The Aikido way, as he demonstrated it, got the person in the same position as the Jujitsu one, but then projected the person backwards in a kind of a push, causing a lineal unbalance. No pain applied, and the ukemi from it was a darn site easier (a simple backward roll instead of a rather hard side breakfall).

I'll now attempt to describe the move, so you guys know what I'm talking about. (I hate trying to "write out" techniques).

Someone gives you a roundhouse, you step in and block the arm, guiding it down in front of your body into the other hand. Assuming you're left foot forward stance, you step through with your left foot, passing shoulder to shoulder, keeping hold with both hands. Their hand ends up kind of behing your head. You pivot around on your feet which puts you in position for the throw.. The aikido move from there is simply to push them backwards. The jujitsu way was to drop your arms slightly, and then almost like putting a seat belt on, bringing their hand down over your right shoulder towards your left hip. ouch :)

Anyway, forgive me for rabbiting on, but an interesting observation (for me anyway) on some of the differences between the two arts, and how Usheba modified a painful technique and made it non painful.

adwelly
08-24-2004, 01:23 AM
From your description it sounds like shio-nage, the four direction throw. In our dojo we are always careful at the final stages of this one to bring uke's hand directly down the back. Certainly everyone seems to be aware of the alternative where the hand is brought down away from the body because its intensly painful and because its a natural motion for a beginner to make. I've had it done to me by white belts on a few occasions. Ouch!

I have read that the throw, executed properly in the Aikido style, can still be quite dangerous. If somebody is thrown hard and doesn't know the escape they can bang the back of their head on the ground as they go down and knock themselves out.

JJF
08-24-2004, 02:10 AM
I've even heard that shihonage is the technique which in more cases than others has resulted in aikido-practice related deaths. Perhaps because it seems rather soft and gentle, but can be executed with devastating power.

It might just be an urban myth though....

Personally I have experienced being thrown by Shishiya sensei in suwariwaza shihonage where I completely got the air beaten out of me. It was very convincing... :D

p00kiethebear
08-24-2004, 02:12 AM
We practice both ways. Your way is easy to take ukemi for if you have a good break fall.

PeterR
08-24-2004, 02:16 AM
I've even heard that shihonage is the technique which in more cases than others has resulted in aikido-practice related deaths. Perhaps because it seems rather soft and gentle, but can be executed with devastating power.

It might just be an urban myth though.D
No urban myth (the study was conducted by Shishida Shihan who also happens to be Professor of Budo History at Waseda Daigaku). What occurred was not just one devastating shihonage but multiple application to the point of uke exhaustion. The repeated slamming of the back of the head onto the mat resulted in an undesirable outcome.

This had more to do with the University Aikido culture than the technique.

Devon Natario
08-24-2004, 03:10 AM
Katatetori Shihonage Tenkan (http://www.shinbudokai.com/vid/kst.wmv)

Hopefully the above technique can clarify if this is what you are talking about, or similar. If the link doesnt work, please go here:
http://www.shinbudokai.com/index.html?target=pg_14.html&lang=en-us
and click on the Katatetori Shihonage Tenkan

If that's what you are talking about, then the technique is the same in Jujitsu. The body only moves so many ways. I have noticed that Aikido seems to take the long way, and use circular movements and their opponents energy, and Ki to create a nagewaza. While in Jujitsu, we focus on the quick and painful way of everything.

Ian Williams
08-24-2004, 03:22 AM
From your description it sounds like shio-nage, the four direction throw. In our dojo we are always careful at the final stages of this one to bring uke's hand directly down the back. Certainly everyone seems to be aware of the alternative where the hand is brought down away from the body because its intensly painful and because its a natural motion for a beginner to make. I've had it done to me by white belts on a few occasions. Ouch!

I have read that the throw, executed properly in the Aikido style, can still be quite dangerous. If somebody is thrown hard and doesn't know the escape they can bang the back of their head on the ground as they go down and knock themselves out.

I think our Sensei called it the "four corner throw" in Aikido - so you're probably spot on...(I'm glad my explanation made enough sense for you to spot it! hehheh)

Ian Williams
08-24-2004, 03:24 AM
We practice both ways. Your way is easy to take ukemi for if you have a good break fall.

I agree Nathan, and I'm certainly not meaning to say that all aikidoists are ukemi weenies, because I know they are not! :)

I just thougth it interesting the different "fall down" motivations used in the same technique.. one pain based, the other just a simple unbalance (it seems).

Ian Williams
08-24-2004, 03:27 AM
Katatetori Shihonage Tenkan (http://www.shinbudokai.com/vid/kst.wmv)

If that's what you are talking about, then the technique is the same in Jujitsu. The body only moves so many ways. I have noticed that Aikido seems to take the long way, and use circular movements and their opponents energy, and Ki to create a nagewaza. While in Jujitsu, we focus on the quick and painful way of everything.

Devon, that's kind of the technique I mean, yes, and we do seem to practice it differently.. you'll notice there's a complete lack of rotation or leverage on the wrist the way the instructor is showing there.. it's simple straight down... close, but not the same way we do it... thanks for your observations.

p00kiethebear
08-24-2004, 06:00 AM
I have noticed that Aikido seems to take the long way,

I guess you've never seen Yoshinkan "Small Circle" Aikido. ;)

I also don't think your method is so much "pain based" as "holy crap my arm is about to snap in half" based...................... Totally different in my opinion.
Once again, when you know the ukemi, there is no pain involved, it's just nage rotating your body. I guess it would be pretty painful if you don't have a clue how to take it.

ian
08-24-2004, 06:53 AM
Ju-jitsu is just unarmed fighting and really incorporates any unarmed martial art from Japan. Effectively Aikido is a style of ju-jitsu (modified diato-ryu aiki-jitsu), as is judo (judo was initially devised because there were so many crap jujitsu schools the originator went around trying to find the best techniques - though obviously modern judo is very different now).

Thus all the techniques from judo and aikido are in jujitsu (or at least within some schools of jujitsu).

Aikido is a simplified version of daito-ryu jujitsu, and has been modified such that it is not necessary to kill or maim the person.

The technique you describe (shiho-nage) we teach both ways (since sometimes a strong opponent can drop their elbow and resist a 'throw' back), although your way I think is the more traditional in aikido.

Personally (except for less technques in aikido e.g. no leg sweeps) I would say aikido is only different from jujitsu in the training method. I think aikido tends to be more flowing and put less pain on so that 'blending' is achieved but also, very importantly, so that more techniques can be done during a training period and these can be done faster (really trying to get more of a conditioned response). This often results in more compliance by uke. Also aikido relates the technique to ukes movements rather than a specific attack type, and therefore is often more flexible (though therefore less structured and slower to learn) and focuses on the use of the centre and extension, which often comes from sword practise. ('cranking' is not a word used in aikido!)

However I have been to some jujitsu clubs that are more like aikido than some aikido clubs.

ian
08-24-2004, 06:58 AM
P.S. an aikijitsu method is to throw them on to your knee as you bend down to break their back.

David Humm
08-24-2004, 07:38 AM
Katatetori Shihonage Tenkan (http://www.shinbudokai.com/vid/kst.wmv)

Hopefully the above technique can clarify if this is what you are talking about, or similar. If the link doesnt work, please go here:
http://www.shinbudokai.com/index.html?target=pg_14.html&lang=en-us
and click on the Katatetori Shihonage Tenkan

If that's what you are talking about, then the technique is the same in Jujitsu. The body only moves so many ways. I have noticed that Aikido seems to take the long way, and use circular movements and their opponents energy, and Ki to create a nagewaza. While in Jujitsu, we focus on the quick and painful way of everything.

Maybe it's a difference of styles.. I dunno, but isn't the technique shown in the clip

Gyaku hanmi ura shiho nage ?

Tenkan just being the method of movement to acheive the technique

Michael Cardwell
08-24-2004, 08:04 AM
Personally (except for less techniques in aikido e.g. no leg sweeps) I would say aikido is only different from jujitsu in the training method.

Ian just FYI, I know of at least two leg sweeps in aikido. One is a variation from tenchi nage, and the other one is from a heji dori attack. :)

aikidoc
08-24-2004, 08:55 AM
As Peter confirmed and Jorgen stated, I have read the study as well. It appears the deaths were caused by forceful shihonages slamming the head in to the mat.

We try to protect the uke's arm and shoulder with this technique. I try to do this technique so that the uke's balance is broken as the turn by nage is completed resulting in the uke falling immediately. It makes it very difficult to take any type of high fall since the uke's balance is broken immediately causing them to fall without being able to turn their body due to the arm being outstretched signficantly.

Devon Natario
08-24-2004, 05:26 PM
Dave: Yes, it could be just the difference in styles. I guess with Jujitsu, we arent really concentrating on using our oppoents energy against them, moreas making them go off balance to conduct our techniques. Theory and the way of practicing are the only thing that differ. But it's that way in most throwing or joint manipulating martial arts. Even Chin-Na from Gung-Fu is very similar Jujitsu with their techniques. But theory is what is different, and the way they get into their movements.

Michael: I agree with your statement. The way of training is the basics of what is different. Jujitsu also has more throwing techniques in my opinion. But I guess it all depends on the style you take, just like in Aikido.

Nathan: I have never heard of small circle Aikido. Sounds an awful lot like Small Circle Jujitsu then. So I can imagine the techniques applied are very shortened and fast. Interesting.. Thank you.

PeterR
08-24-2004, 07:46 PM
judo was initially devised because there were so many crap jujitsu schools the originator went around trying to find the best techniques
I suggest you go to the Judo Info (http://judoinfo.com/) site and read some of the articles on the origin of Judo.