To resist or not to resist

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[suren]

Sorry if this question was already asked, but I could not find it using "search" with word "resist" or "resistance".
The question is: should uke resist doing a technique with full strength or not.
One of my usual partners who is Nidan (who trained also in Japan) always asks me to grab strong and hold as hard as I can and he does the same when he is in uke's role. That's hard, but very effective way of training. We even joke that your technique will be perfect if you survive after training with Jim.
I like this way more since if I'm not doing technique right I can't move him and he is skilled enough to point out why it does not work.
Other guy who is also my frequent partner and he is brown belt asked me to relax and pay attension to the technique rather than try to hold him. All this was said in a very friendly manner and I'm sure both guys have their points, but what should I do?
Should I train differently with these guys and adjust my resistance to their preferences? Should I express my preferences or I have to learn from different people different flavours of the technique in a different way?

Thanks in advance.

[L. Camejo]

Hi Suren,

Personally I don't think you should be "learning" anything as far as correct technique from anyone else but your Sensei. There are many high kyu grades who sometimes think they are Instructors. We have to be careful of this.

In the same light, it is possible that your Nidan partner has the technical skill to train comfortably with the degree of power and reisistance you put into your attacks. The Brown belt on the other hand may not have things up to that level as yet. I tend to tell my students to attack at a level comfortable for the Tori at first and then increase resistance and power as Tori increasingly becomes more effective at getting off the technique. In this way it creates a graduated way for Tori to improve his technique. In my opinion the attack must challenge Tori at some level. That level depends on you.

Different body and personality types allow us to practice techniques in different ways, and it's best we adapt to suit to maintain the harmony in the training as much as possible, not to mention see things from a different perspective. However, in my opinion it is no question that the training method you use with the Nidan is better for more effective technique. This does not mean that you can't learn the movements better by using the method used by the Brown belt. It depends on what you want to focus on in your training at the particular time.

Just my 2 cents.
LC:ai::ki:

[suren]

Hi Larry,

Your "2 cents" are a huge donation for me. Just to make sure I understand you right I would like to quote parts of your responce and discuss them.

Personally I don't think you should be "learning" anything as far as correct technique from anyone else but your Sensei. There are many high kyu grades who sometimes think they are Instructors. We have to be careful of this.

Oh, I'm pretty sure no one in my dojo is trying to be "the Instructor". Sometimes I do errors and they correct me, sometimes they are not correct also and sensei corrects them... We all are students. They all do the same technique, but the way they practice it is different and my question targets these differences.

I tend to tell my students to attack at a level comfortable for the Tori at first and then increase resistance and power as Tori increasingly becomes more effective at getting off the technique. In this way it creates a graduated way for Tori to improve his technique. In my opinion the attack must challenge Tori at some level. That level depends on you.

If the resistance level of uke is not enough to stop the technique if it's performed incorrectly (by saying incorrectly I mean not getting uke's balance completely or entering at a different angle which does not allow you to get his balance easily), should I ask mu uke to resist more?

Different body and personality types allow us to practice techniques in different ways, and it's best we adapt to suit to maintain the harmony in the training as much as possible, not to mention see things from a different perspective.

So uke should adapt the resistance level for nage?

However, in my opinion it is no question that the training method you use with the Nidan is better for more effective technique. This does not mean that you can't learn the movements better by using the method used by the Brown belt. It depends on what you want to focus on in your training at the particular time.

Which type of training focuses more on what? To be more specific, I think I understand the advantages of training with a high level of resistance, but which advantages has a practice with a low level of resistance (let's call it a relaxed practicing)?

Thanks

[Ron Tisdale]

but which advantages has a practice with a low level of resistance (let's call it a relaxed practicing)?

Ukemi develops better, in my opinion. I spent many years working with ex karateka who were extremely hard to throw, and started using the same kind of resistence as uke (probably to maintain my battered ego). My ukemi suffered greatly. I got hurt a lot. I hurt some others as well. Not good.

The non-physical aspects of Connection develops better in my opinion. You learn to connect to your uke better and differently. This is hard to talk about...teachers like Ikeda Sensei do this very well.

Relaxation and how to use it in technique develops differently, in my case better.

Mind you, I'm in the yoshinkan and I'm saying this...

I also thought that Larry's answer was very good.

Ron

PS I'm not saying that katai training necessarily leads to deficits in the area above...under proper supervision and guidence it shouldn't...but if I was teaching someone in that fashion, I would be very mindfull that the above problems can occur, and I would teach accordingly.
RT

[shihonage]

I think both approaches are good to practice, but the fluid one, where uke is honest but not overzealous in resistance and is not throwing himself either, is the most useful when it comes to martial effectiveness.

[suren]

Ukemi develops better, in my opinion.
Hmm, I've never thought about this, but that makes sence!

I have to add that my background is also Karate and resistance was natural to me.

Have also to add that I stretched one of my neck's muscles lately while taking ukemi from my Nidan partner and protecting my head from bouncing with mat (not a big deal), but that revealed a gap in my back falling technique. I guess I'm just "learning the hard way" person... Too stupid to learn from what's said, have to try it.
That's kind of denies your statement Ron since that incident made me focus on my ukemi, but I see your point and can't disagree with it.

The non-physical aspects of Connection develops better in my opinion. You learn to connect to your uke better and differently. This is hard to talk about...teachers like Ikeda Sensei do this very well.

Relaxation and how to use it in technique develops differently, in my case better.

I'll take your work and take my time for this :).

I also thought that Larry's answer was very good.

No question about it.

Thanks,
Suren.

[L. Camejo]

Great ideas Ron.

As indicated, the more fluid, less resistant practice is beneficial for understanding what is happeneing to both yourself and Uke while doing the technique. It helps one to also understand body mechanics - seeing how affecting one part of the body a certain way affects the other parts in different ways. E.g.: In kotegaeshi, seeing how the twisting of the wrist then moves into the elbow, then shoulder, then contorts the torso and finally causes the knees themselves to bend and twist, breaking Uke's balance more and more with each movement until the legs can no longer support the body.

The low resistance training also helps one to get the "general" movements of a new technique. In this way one can have the idea of how the general movements work (the beginning level). Resistance teaches you how to remove any kinks that may cause the technique to fail with an uncooperative partner (the intermediate to advanced level). In this case you start to focus on the specifics of the technique that allows one to overcome resistance with suppleness and aiki. The simple fact is, one can only understand what really works until someone decides to counter the movements of your technique in a way that negates everything you do. It is here you are challenged to raise the bar, to do better and not be satisfied with anything but your best.

In my training it is important to remain "realistically humble". This means that I make myself understand that I am only BEGINNING to really understand a technique when I can apply it even in the midst of resistance. This helps us to avoid becoming delusional with our dojo practice, thinking that this or that can work against resistance because our Uke is being cooperative and falling. It keeps us honest. So ideally, the both concepts go hand in hand.

It's like Tomiki's concepts: Kata allows us to practice the form and understand the motions and inner workings of the technique (preferable performed slowly and consciously at first to understand what we should be doing). Randori should give us the dynamics and resistance to apply the kata in such a way that it makes sense and works effectively in a fluid, dynamic environment. In this way, randori (esp. with resistance) actually serves to improve upon the basic structure of the kata as the basic form is constantly tested and forged under resistance to become the "perfect" or most effective expression of that technique. In effect, at the highest level, both may even merge, where practical technique is so effective that it can be performed as fluidly as kata even in a randori or resistance rich environment.

Just my thoughts. Hope they help.
LC:ai::ki:

[aikidoc]

I feel that in the beginning while learning the basic sabaki and movement patterns excessive resistance can be counter productive. I generally like the beginning students to feel the technique movements whether tori or uke so they understand the energy flow. Once the get the basic movement pattern down, then uke's can add more resistance. By resistance, I mean a stronger attack for example a grab. However, I admonish uke's not to provide a vector to their resistance since that changes the dynamics of the attack and the tori then can throw them in any throw appropriate for the attack vector. My students frequently challenge my techniques by providing very strong attacks to see if they can break me out of my movement-it doesn't work (sometimes hurts the wrists due to the forces though). They also recognized that a strong attack can sometimes result in a very strong technique and that they must have to ability to safely take the technique.

I sometimes start training as follows: movement pattern without uke, movement with uke and no resistance, movement under full attack.

Advanced students also realize that if their technique is good they are likely to get countered or atemi applied by attacker as well.

[suren]

Great ideas! I'll keep that in mind when I train.
Thank you all for your time and efforts. This discussion was very useful and interesting to me.

[aikidoc]

That last statement should have said "if their technique is "NOT" good they are likely to get countered" Sorry about that.

[Aristeia]

Well first of all we need to be careful about what we mean by "resistance".
Often people bring up, and encourage people to reist when they're wanting to get a reality check on their Aikido. Which is admirable. But the type of resistance applied doesn't always match that goal.
I'm sure that we all are aware that if you know the particular technique that is to be applied it is reasonably easy to resist it at some point. You may leave yourself wide open for something else, but you have successfully resisted that technique.
We sometimes get so caught up in the mindset of "nage should be able to make this work even if I resist" we lose sight of the fact that we are now acting in a very unnatural way.
And of course there's nothing worse than someone who has a "pet correction" for a particular technique. i.e. someone who has decided that there is something that everybody does wrong on technique x, and will block the technique just so they can point it out, whether nage is doing it or not.

So I perfer in general not to tell people to resist so much as to be sincere in their attack, and continue to attack sincerely (which may include tying to extracate themselves from a bad position).
This is much more helpful in letting people work out the lines to their techniques, and getting that reality check than just clamping on and thinking "if I keep pushing this way it'll make it really hard for him to perform shiho nage".

[aikidoc]

Good points Michael. I point out to students that inappropriate resistance of the technique often exposes them to atemi opportunities. It is also important that since I have shown what is to be done it is easy for someone to stop the technique if they have a mind to do so.

[suren]

Well first of all we need to be careful about what we mean by "resistance".

Every attack has its purpose. For example if uke grabs nage's wrist he probably wants to keep it there and do not allow nage to move his hand. That's what I ment by "resisrance", not some action that prevents technique to work because uke knows what nage will perform.

[Aristeia]

Every attack has its purpose. For example if uke grabs nage's wrist he probably wants to keep it there and do not allow nage to move his hand. That's what I ment by "resisrance", not some action that prevents technique to work because uke knows what nage will perform.

Hmm... you know thinking about it I'm not even sure of that. How realistic is it for someone to grab your wrist and then just freeze it there. Generally they are going to be pulling or pushing, or hitting and holding surely? Although most of the time training from wrist grabs is a way of teaching the basics of a technique without having to deal with a dynamic attack so I gues the point is moot.
:)

What got me started on this was the point in your original post where you talk about holding on strongly as resistance. It sounded like the Nidan was asking for tighter stronger grips, which doesn't necessarily = good "resistance" in my book. Oftentimes the harder someone grips the more stiff they become the easier to break free.

[Dario Rosati]

The question is: should uke resist doing a technique with full strength or not

Hi Suren,

Here's my beginner (6th kyu) opinion.

I tend to be relaxed with other kyu people to focus on other things (feet/center stance, timing, breathing ecc), but I resist as strong/swift (and I really mean it) as I can with yudansha people, given the fact that I rarely have the chanche to train with them, so when it happens it becomes to me a sort of test for the tecnique and the art.

This lead to interesting situations sometimes and really let me (and the yudansha, I hope) learn something... including the difference between a good yudansha and a so-so one ;), and I really hope to remind this when someday I'll be yudansha, too :)

I think it is pretty stupid not to resist at certain levels, you wouldn't be a credible uke: a casual attacker wouldn't probably be trained in aikido, and would attack at full speed and strength... so deal with it, or your aikido/rank is flawed.

The drawback is that often this lead to a too much strong/fast ukemi for my current technical level, making me going home with bruises and pain at the joints sometimes... but I think this is really worth the experience (after all, this is a martial art, not Ikebana or Origami, and getting battered by experienced people has a great didactical value, IMHO :) )

Bye!

[maikerus]

I think Michael brought up some good points about being careful about what resistance is and whether it is appropriate for "the technique" being done. I agree with him that the most important thing in a technique is the sincere attack and the continuing to attack aspect throughout the technique.

That being said, I believe there is a place for resistance in our Aikido practice. As we move throughout a technique there are various points where we have to focus our power and energy which is supposed to move uke in a particular way.

If uke resists at these points (unexpectedly and just because they know what is about to happen) then from a technique point of view it would make more sense to change the technique to work with this changing resistance.

However, from a training point of view in how to move our body most effectively and strongly we can use that resistance as a training tool. While the resistance is there we will have to really focus on bringing our body in line and moving it all together as a single unit. We will have to really look for the circle that we know exists to control uke's balance. This practice, I believe, will make us better at the overall technique.

The other extreme where there is absolutely no resistance to the technique is also good because if you have an uke who has been thrown a billion times and knows how they should feel in this particular technique then by moving to the "right" place they are helping the person doing the technique to see the purpose in the various stages in the technique and what the goal of each movement is. This is also valuable and will make us better understand our technique.

When training, I usually find that it is up to me and my partner to decide what kind of training we're going to do. Sometimes we decide to go with the fully committed attack all the way through. Sometimes we resist to the point where we can feel that the technique is working. Sometimes we resist the technique even when it is working (and this can hurt <wry grin>). Sometimes we try and go through the technique as fast as possible, both of us getting into the position we're supposed to be at.

I believe that anyone who limits themselves to training in just one method (whether that be resist or don' t resist or fast or slow or whatever) is probably doing themselves a disservice. There is so much more to learn/see when you train with different uke and different kinds of training. I guess it all depends on who you're training with, how you feel about training that day and what you want to focus on from a studying point of view. And, of course, anything you do must fall within the bounds of what the instructor is teaching to the class.

I hope this meandering passage made sense.

cheers,

--Michael

[Aristeia]

Sometimes we try and go through the technique as fast as possible, both of us getting into the position we're supposed to be at.



Ah yes, demo's. ;)

[NagaBaba]

Uke, every time must resist with all his experience. This resistance shouldn't be mistaken with stiff, immobile posture. In contrary, attacker can be as flexible as possible, yet, looking always for openings in tori technique. As he counter opening one by one, tori has a lot of difficulty to execute efficient technique. So he is forced to find right way to do it.
It must be done at ANY level of students.

This is ultimate way to learn correct, pure technique and right spirit(in other words: unification of body and mind), without any word, by both, uke and tori in the same time.

[Aristeia]

Uke, every time must resist with all his experience. This resistance shouldn't be mistaken with stiff, immobile posture. In contrary, attacker can be as flexible as possible, yet, looking always for openings in tori technique. As he counter opening one by one, tori has a lot of difficulty to execute efficient technique. So he is forced to find right way to do it.
It must be done at ANY level of students.

This is ultimate way to learn correct, pure technique and right spirit(in other words: unification of body and mind), without any word, by both, uke and tori in the same time.

Every time? Any level of student? Even if they are beginners and it's the first time they've seen the technique. Hell, even if they're expereienced and it's the first time they've seen the technique? Do I want to be wacking a 5th kyu in the back of the head everytime there's an opening in their technique or should I pick a couple of things to have him work on?
Your way may work but I expect it takes much longer and has a higher attrition rate.

[suren]

How realistic is it for someone to grab your wrist and then just freeze it there. Generally they are going to be pulling or pushing, or hitting and holding surely?
Have to agree with you. In a street fight if somebody ever grab your wrists - only from your back to place you in a good position for other guy coming into you.

Oftentimes the harder someone grips the more stiff they become the easier to break free.
Ya, right! Explain that to my Nidan partner please :)

[Aristeia]

Ya, right! Explain that to my Nidan partner please :)

Well maybe he's perfected the strong grip relaxed arm thing that is actually quite hard to accomplish (although at Nidan should be somewhat developed). Generally though people gripping with all their might stiffen their arm making it easy to escape the grip. Of course if the technique you're training is say, Shiho Nage, that's not what you want to do. :)

[suren]

I tend to be relaxed with other kyu people to focus on other things (feet/center stance, timing, breathing ecc), but I resist as strong/swift (and I really mean it) as I can with yudansha people, given the fact that I rarely have the chanche to train with them, so when it happens it becomes to me a sort of test for the tecnique and the art.


Well, don't want to make you envy Dario, but usually I do not have a chance to train with a person with level close to mine (beginner)... Our classes start at 6am and only motivated people can make it every day and they mostly brown and black belts. Therefore I have a nice choice of yudanshas to train with :D

[suren]

Well maybe he's perfected the strong grip relaxed arm thing that is actually quite hard to accomplish (although at Nidan should be somewhat developed).
I don't exactly know what he perfected, but I was amazed how strong can be a man who probably twice older than me... About same weight and height and yet sooo tough.

[Thomas Ambrose]

To give a newbie's perspective... and my perspective should be taken as just that... the experience of a newbie...

I find that my partners often adapt to me when training. Some seem to prefer that I offer resistance, some do not. When I am acting as nage, I have noticed that as my comfort in a technique increases, so does the uke's resistance. When given resistance, I have found that I have to work harder to find give right technique, and not just go through a motion while the uke cooperates. Though more physically demanding, something feels "right" when uke offers some level of resistance.

Anyway, just my current thoughts as a newbie!

[L. Camejo]

How realistic is it for someone to grab your wrist and then just freeze it there.

This is interesting. Imho, if Uke attacks with a grab and is able to set his stance and "just freeze there" then your technique has already failed as you should be continuing his movement with well timed tai sabaki and kuzushi, never allowing him to set and freeze his posture.

When first learning the technique, this setting of posture often happens however, as the beginner has not developed the timing and tai sabaki skills to move with the attack as it's coming in as yet. But in these early learning situations, the attacks tend to be firm, but relaxed, allowing the beginner to get a feel for the basic movements with a relaxed, flexible response by Uke. When the basics are understood, then the attacks become more rigid to give more resisitance.

Just my 2 cents.
LC:ai::ki:

[suren]

I just got a private message from another aikiweb user pointing on this post http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?p=68046&highlight=partner#post68046
But I think in this case there is no ego or showing off on uke's side. People just choose to train with different levels of resistance...

[Aristeia]

This is interesting. Imho, if Uke attacks with a grab and is able to set his stance and "just freeze there" then your technique has already failed as you should be continuing his movement with well timed tai sabaki and kuzushi, never allowing him to set and freeze his posture.



True Dat

[aikido_luver]

With resistance its hard to know how much but you also need to relax :)
You need to feel what your uke/nage is doing and you cant do that when your all stiff and tense. :uch:
I always seem to start off with minimum resistance with beginners or lower grades and then build it up and i do the same with higher grades...or sometimes i just go straight into resisting as much as possible with the black belts. :p (somedays i do and somedays i dont)
lol, but i think it is important to explore all ways of doing it...everybody is different in the way they attack.
For example, if i am training with one of my senseis i will resist but as soon as i get in the ground i stop resisting all of a sudden and dont really do anything, but a person i have trained with before is the oppisite, they are really loose and dont have much resistence untill they get on the ground and then they try to get up. Everyone has a different style you just have to feel what they are doing and try and work with what you have :D

well at least thats what one of my senseis tells me!!! lol, :confused:
I hope this helps, sorry if it doesn't!!!
:D

Ayla

[NagaBaba]

Every time? Any level of student? Even if they are beginners and it's the first time they've seen the technique. Hell, even if they're expereienced and it's the first time they've seen the technique? Do I want to be wacking a 5th kyu in the back of the head everytime there's an opening in their technique or should I pick a couple of things to have him work on?
Your way may work but I expect it takes much longer and has a higher attrition rate.
Tori must learn right from the beginning that attacker is not a doll, that it takes a big efford to put somebody down.
Also he must learn, that not EVERY time uke falls down and if uke doesn't fall it is entierly fault of tori. It is very good habit to hit or to counter a technique every time uke see an opening. A strike doesn't need to be strong, light touch for beginners is enough. It must be clear sign that uke see opening. After few months stronger atemi must be delivered. A counter can be not neceserly a strike, go out of technique is good way too. It makes tori think what is wrong, and how to find a way to make control more efficient.

If opening are not signal by uke every time, tori learns bad habits(I.e. waiting for sensei's help instead of become creatif and find solution himself........), becomes pretecious, his ego growing extremly fast.

He forgets that he has only one chance to do a technique(in the context of life/dead situation) and becomes comfortable, feels safe(that's the worst thing!!!). His senses are not sharpened. He is not developing his eyes and a feeling of technique in right way.

And martial spirit of practice is completly lost.

[suren]

Interesting point. I did not think that showing tori's openings could be considered as resistance, but I realize now that it is... BTW, that methodology can be applied even while training in a "relaxed" way. Isn't it?

[Aristeia]

yes it can but I still maintain it needs to employed at the appropriate level. If I'm showing up every hole in a 6th kyu's technique by giving him an atemi (tap) moving out of the technique, reversing it etc etc that 6th kyu will NEVER get to practice the form. It's a terrible way to teach lower levels. Or even upper levels with unfamiliar techniques. You show them the form. You get them to do as loose an approximation of it as they can manage and then refine it down. Polish the stone as it were. Have them work on one or two things at a time until good form is internalised enough to start taking the approach that Szczepan is advocating for everybody.

[Ron Tisdale]

I kind of agree with alot of the different approaches here...but I'm also sure that everyone has worked with the uke from hell...you know, 1st kyu, brown belt (whatever) and is there to personally show you everything they've ever been taught. I'm not sure I've ever completed a technique with one of those...

In my experience, one instructor in the dojo is quite sufficient...

Ron :)

[suren]

Ron, you misinterpreted the situation. They don't try to teach you anything, but the way they practice is different. BTW, when I say high resistance that does not mean you are always injured during the practice (thought the probability is higher than when you pratice slowly and softly) - that means you are injured sometines :D I'm kidding...
Probably I can't explain that well... One works softly and slowly, concentrated on each move and flow of the movement. The other goes as an ocean wave - fast, powerful, with consistent pressure. They both do what sensei says, but with different speed and power.
I was wondering which way of training gives you more and from what I hear they all give you something to work with: soft way - to concentrate on the technique and learn it, hard way - to feel how it works, test yourself and sharpen it. At least that's my understanding, hope I got it right.

[MaryKaye]

Speaking only for myself, there are moves (and Ki Society style seems particularly rich in them) that I just can't understand if I start out doing them against resistance. Until I've felt how the uninterrupted flow is supposed to go, I have no clue, and all I can produce against resistance is some high-effort forced thing that doesn't resemble the actual throw very much. If I learn to get the flow right, I can (sometimes!) then work out how to continue it when uke is resisting. So I value having training partners who are willing to give me a sincere attack and then follow my lead rather than fighting it.

I train with one person who is very fast, energetic, and somewhat hurried in all of his technique, uke and nage both. He's taught me a lot (not least, overcoming my fear of him!) but if I've just been shown a new technique I need to train with someone else. I don't think I would ever have gotten shomenuchi kokyunage right if it hadn't been for my usual same-rank partner patiently showing me, over and over, what lead I was giving him and where it seemed to be taking him. He could have stopped me cold at any moment he chose, but all that would have done was drive me crazy--I was already using too much force and not enough rhythm, and resistance would only have made that worse.

Mary Kaye

[maikerus]

Also he must learn, that not EVERY time uke falls down and if uke doesn't fall it is entierly fault of tori. It is very good habit to hit or to counter a technique every time uke see an opening.



I would suggest that this type of practice is valuable and does have its place, but I think that practicing this way *every time* and with *everyone* would be counter-productive to anyone's training. Personally, when I practice this way my partner and I agree on that this is the way we're going to practice.

I suspect that if one person decided to point out the others faults and the other person was just interested in remembering which foot goes where that the practice wouldn't be very interesting, martial or fun.




He forgets that he has only one chance to do a technique(in the context of life/dead situation) and becomes comfortable, feels safe(that's the worst thing!!!). His senses are not sharpened. He is not developing his eyes and a feeling of technique in right way.

And martial spirit of practice is completly lost.



I think that it is very important to remember that we are doing a martial art and to keep our focus in our training with that in mind. Aikido should not just be a social club or a way to sweat a little a couple of times a week.

Luckily, we are training so that we can learn from what we are doing and increase our ability, skill and stamina. We can't get any technique right away and trying to force that to happen by pointing out everything that we are doing wrong (by resisting or applying atemi when there is an opening) would not be the best way to do things.

An analogy that just came to me is learning to write. My son is 5 years old and we've been working on his letters and numbers. If I stopped every stroke he made to write the letter W or X or G when it wasn't perfectly straight or at the exact angle he would never finish a single letter.

I maintain that training comes in many forms. There are times to work on the overall technique, times to break it down into core components, times to focus on balance, times to focus on timing and times to put it all together into a whole greater than the sum of its parts.

The difference between renshu and keiko also works into this whole idea.

My few yen,

--Michael

[DCP]

I find the best way to be uke is to act in the same manner as I had acted when I was uke for Sensei's initial demonstration. Give a committed attack not knowing what technique is to come. ( I am also fortunate enough to have a Sensei that will deliver atemi as necessary. Nothing too rough, just friendly reminders!).

Almost anybody can resist a technique that they know is coming.

I think a cool way to train (occasionally) would be to have a session devoted to a particular attack and let nage choose different techniques each repetition. Obviously this couldn't include beginners, but it would definitely produce more "honest" ukemi.

[tedehara]

Speaking only for myself, there are moves (and Ki Society style seems particularly rich in them) that I just can't understand if I start out doing them against resistance..
Mary Kaye
Wait until you reach a level when uke holds softly and starts extending ki. It becomes a whole new ballgame.

The question of holding with resistance becomes moot.

[Ron Tisdale]

Hi Suren,

Ron, you misinterpreted the situation. They don't try to teach you anything, but the way they practice is different.

Oh, I understand what you are saying...I was more responding to Mr. S's post. I like the kind of practice he suggests with specific people that I trust a lot...I wouldn't and don't train that way with everyone. For one I'm not good enough to be that on the ball, for two I don't think its always fair to your partner. I also think it gets carried too far sometimes. Competition can come out in sneaky little ways when there is no formal outlet for it. Heck, sometimes it comes out for me on these boards...

Ron