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Jim Saba
08-17-2004, 12:47 PM
Very interesting article. I agree with your idea about the unrealistic importance that is placed on titles and positions. Humans seem to need that for some reason. I do see some need to have some system , but I think that it's like anything else you need to temper your judgement when it come right down to it. There are too many people in this world who are too caught up in the own self- importance.


Thank You ,
Jim Saba

Jim Saba
08-17-2004, 08:49 PM
The Article :
In another forum, someone was asking me about my ranks in Iaido and there was another inquiry about my ranks in Aikido. I can understand this kind of curiousity because I have been very quiet in my own dojo with a very busy teaching schedule and have really not gone out much in the last 20 years since I relocated to my present dojo in LIttle Tokyo, downtown Los Angeles in 1984 - about 19 years ago. I think that the older generation of Aikidoists all know me or heard of me very well, but perhaps the younger generation of Aikidoists within the last 20 years or so do not know me at all. Of course, it goes without saying that my rank in Aikido is from Hombu Dojo Aikikai - I never thought to be asked where it ever came from!

I posted an explanation of my Iaido ranks in that forum but then removed it after a while so perhaps the inquirer saw it hopefully while it was on. Otherwise, the question will remain not addressed. When I thought back to all of my promotions over the last 45 years or so, I realized that I have not kept very good track of them. This question really caused me to think back and I realized that I didn't even know the ranks of many of my Iaido teachers in the past. I think it was impolite to ask directly and I think it was not much of a concern for us then as ranks are now. I know I studied under many great teachers and even today I still respect and admire their skill and teachings although they are long gone and I still don't know what ranks they were exactly. I remember Takiguchi Yoshinobu Sensei was a 9th Dan in Kendo and an expert in Itto Ryu as well as Iaido. Coming to the US from the same village in Japan as my grandfather around the turn of the century, he gave me very special attention in my Kendo and Iaido training as a little kid.

There was Ebihara Sensei, who was perhaps the greatest of all of my Iaido teachers - I recall this must have been about 35 years ago or so when I was training. He had actual combat usage of Iaido during the war and because of those sad memories was very reluctant to teach us any Iaido at all. His Iaido left me breathless - he used a shorter sword because his Iaido was for actual battle. Regetably, I remember another Aikido teacher wanted to join our small group of three students. On his very first evening, he pushed the shoulder of Ebihara Sensei a little and said, "I don't think you are keeping your 'one point'." Ebihara Sensei just sat down and that was the last lesson anyone ever had, he did not say a word. This was the same as trying to ask for his rank and qualifications. This is how it was back in the old days! I still remember this incident very well in my head - such a great learning opportunity was lost due to unthinking rudeness. Mori Torao Sensei was a great genius in Kendo and his Iaido classes were always so exciting for me - none of us were capable of even remotely imitating what he could do with a sword. He studied several styles of Iaido - we just learned whatever he taught us. I don't remember what style he taught us - maybe Jikiden Eishin Ryu and Muso Shinden Ryu.

After I posted the explanation, I felt very bad inside of myself. If anyone misinterpreted that I was bragging about myself or boasting about my ranks, I could never forgive myself. I felt so ahamed about this and am relieved that this post is gone.

If someone wants to study under me, they should come to my dojo and meet me and begin training and of course, he should know my background and qualifications. I think he will soon know me from the training here in my dojo and from my students as he practices. If someone wants to know my ranks just out of curiousity and for more chit-chat with no intention of meeting me or ever training with me, I rather discuss something else.

I think attitudes are very different today and we are very rank conscious in these modern times. I think other "old-timers" like myself will understand and appreciate what I am saying. Maybe the younger generation of Aikidoists out there will think this conversation very strange and odd. This is another difference I see in students today. The older generation was very strict about modesty and humility and considered it a very important element of their practice.

My Zen master, the late Bishop Kenko Yamashita, practiced Kendo before the war in Japan. I never knew his rank until one day it just happened to come up in another conversation in the temple and he mentioned in passing that he was 5th Dan. I think 5th Dan in those days is equivalent to maybe 8th or 9th Dan today. But we were all surprised because he never talked about his Kendo days before. Although he was in his 80's at the time and never practiced for over 50 years, for us, he took a Japanese sword out of his closet in the office and instantly cut a thick telephone book into two very cleanly - we were all shocked! Even his own daughters did not know he could do this. He let me look at the sword right after this, I was shocked again to know that a famous modern swordsmith had made this sword especially for him on the occasion of his journey to America! It was inscribed on the tang of the blade. When I asked how he got this, he said, "Oh, Watanabe (the swordsmith) is an old acquaintance of mine." I was so shocked again. Talking a little more about his Kendo, I then discovered that he practiced everyday in the same dojo as Nakayama Hakudo Sensei, one of the first pioneers of modern Kendo and the "father" of modern Iaido. Again, I was totally shocked that he never ever mentioned this to anyone until now in such a casual conversation. My Zen master is about the same generation as O'Sensei and 2nd Doshu - I think all great teachers were like this in those days - so humble and modest, - now so long ago.

These are just a few memories from the past of my training and how it was many years ago. . . . . . I just thought to share them with you here. Thank you.

My Response :
Very interesting article. I agree with your idea about the unrealistic importance that is placed on titles and positions. Humans seem to need that for some reason. I do see some need to have some system , but I think that it's like anything else you need to temper your judgement when it come right down to it. There are too many people in this world who are too caught up in the own self- importance.


Thank You ,
Jim Saba

NagaBaba
08-17-2004, 09:38 PM
I'm a bit lost, what ranks in aikido and iaido exactly has M.Kensho Furuya and who were his teachers?
By teacher I mean instructor with whom M.Kensho Furuya practiced REGULARY during years, not occasional seminars.
I found it is very suspected he doesn't give honest, straithfull answer.

Charles Hill
08-17-2004, 11:12 PM
I found it is very suspected he doesn't give honest, straithfull answer.

Then I guess we'll have to go by the words he has written (which always seem enlightening and insightful to me) and the tv shows in which he has appeared (his technique looks solid and interesting to me.)

Charles Hill

Robert Townson
08-18-2004, 02:06 AM
I do agree that a lot of emphasis is put on rank these days, and I am certain that it has a lot to do with the type of culture that we live in today. We like to measure our progress in a given thing, and in Martial Arts a rank or grade is the easiest why to do this.

With regard to teachers/instructors in some ways it is a good why to judge their technical knowledge, but as has been pointed out many times on this forum technical knowledge doesn't always make for the best teachers. I think it would be naive, but understandable, of someone starting out in any MA to choose a teach on rank alone.

batemanb
08-18-2004, 02:15 AM
I'm a bit lost, what ranks in aikido and iaido exactly has M.Kensho Furuya and who were his teachers?
By teacher I mean instructor with whom M.Kensho Furuya practiced REGULARY during years, not occasional seminars.
I found it is very suspected he doesn't give honest, straithfull answer.


He covers a lot of it in an old post here

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3458&page=2&pp=25&highlight=furuya

Snippet taken

Btw, someone also asked about my rank in Aikido - this is, of course, from Aikikai Hombu Dojo, received from 2nd Doshu Kisshomaru Ueshiba Sensei. Sorry, I forgot how many years ago that was. . . . . Thank you.


I agree with Charles, we take the man at face value (as I do with everyone) based on how they write and conduct themselves on the boards. One's character will be pretty much evident after a while.

rgds

Bryan

Peter Seth
08-18-2004, 07:19 AM
There seems to be a need for humans to be 'important' at something, to stand out, maybe its a survival imperative - looking a good bet for a mate, etc? - I don't know.
But as I have told my son, status is only within an individual sphere of activity.
And, most important to remember that 'Everyone is NOT important somewhere'!
So you could be a 20th dan at whatever, but that means nothing to someone who has no interest in your sphere of activity. So I think its a good idea to just be nice, don't throw your ego at people, treat everyone with respect no matter who they are. You will find that the 'status' this develops brings both respect and warmth from your fellows.

ian
08-18-2004, 09:07 AM
Wise words Peter; you have been awarded 10th Dan of the aiki-web forums ;o)

tony cameron
08-18-2004, 02:53 PM
cheers to peter! your son is fortunate to have such a humble and wise teacher for a father. there are probably numerous times in this life that we pass near a master on the street unbeknownst to us. even Hakuin apparently travelled the japan countryside as a common begger only to greatly humble those unfortunate and stupid enough to disrespect him. respect= dignity and honour i say. i pray that i am fortunate enough to meet and train with Furuya Sensei in this life. he probably doen't even know that he is a living Master.

respect to all:)

tony1

NagaBaba
08-18-2004, 09:57 PM
He covers a lot of it in an old post here

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3458&page=2&pp=25&highlight=furuya

Bryan
thanks! So basically he is a second dan(Nidan). And after leaving Hombu dojo he didn't have any instructor to teach him.

AsimHanif
08-19-2004, 04:56 PM
Yes, I was wondering about that. He may be a very good instructor and a very nice person but since he never answered the question regarding rank it makes me think there may be an issue. He answered a lot of other stuff and added a lot of "enlightening" conversation but never the original question.
If rank truly is no big deal why avoid it? It is what it is.

Peter Seth
08-20-2004, 06:16 AM
Thanks to tony and ian for your kind words.
Though it seems to be somewhat unpopular at the moment its NICE to Be NICE, nice things happen. Have you ever read 'Desiderata' - Words found on a gravestone in St Pauls around 17??.
Something everyone should read!
Pete

Peter Seth
08-20-2004, 06:25 AM
Hi its me again, I have a challenge!
Please see my post in this forum 'Making good use of our art'! see what you think. I think it would be tremendous if everyone put in a little effort along the same lines for such positive reasons.
I'm sure this is one way O'sensei would want his universal message to manifest itself.
PLEASE SPREAD THE WORD.

Cheers
Pete

AsimHanif
08-20-2004, 06:55 AM
NagaBaba I noticed that Furuya Sensei has posted on his website his aikido and iaido ranks. I didn't notice this before although I'm sure it was there.
He lists his ranks as 6th Dan in aikido and 6th Dan in Iaido.

tedehara
08-22-2004, 11:40 AM
..Have you ever read 'Desiderata' - Words found on a gravestone in St Pauls around 17??.
Something everyone should read!
PeteSometimes you have to go beyond common beliefs to find the truth (http://www.fleurdelis.com/desidera.htm).

I have noticed Furya Sensei is an impeccable scholar.

Peter Seth
08-23-2004, 05:24 AM
Brilliant, Thanks for the info Ted, as you say 'common beliefs'? But it is still a brilliant piece, U agree?
Pete

PS: What is 'correct' practice and who establishes 'correct'? I have found my practice is constantly modifying itself as 'I' proceed. Also, what is 'perfect' and whose interpretation is it? (Maybe the unobtainable)? Mmm?

Blake Ashley
08-24-2004, 01:08 PM
Hi All,

I was a student of Furuya Sensei's for about five years in the 1980s. He would probably not approve of my commenting here, but I know many people look to this site for information when looking for a dojo. So it is important that I contribute what I know.

Furuya Sensei was 4th Dan when I was his student in the 80s. He was affiliated with the USAF and hosted many seminars at his dojo including Osawa Sensei (then Chief Instructor at Hombu), Sugano Sensei, and Chiba Sensei (several times). For what it's worth to you, Steve Segal (in his pre-movie star phase) came to the opening celebration of Furuya Sensei's dojo. So when Furuya Sensei says that he was well-known to the old timers, that rings true to me.

I have no particular credentials to back up my opinion, but I always thought he was a fine teacher. His deep understanding of Japanese martial tradition, and his sense of humor, often came out in his teaching. I always felt challenged and felt that my progress was important to him. That was in the 80s. I can only speculate that twenty more years of training, teaching, and practicing zazen has improved his teaching.

I think that anyone in the Los Angeles area would do well to train there.

Blake

tedehara
08-24-2004, 11:10 PM
Brilliant, Thanks for the info Ted, as you say 'common beliefs'? But it is still a brilliant piece, U agree?
Pete

PS: What is 'correct' practice and who establishes 'correct'? I have found my practice is constantly modifying itself as 'I' proceed. Also, what is 'perfect' and whose interpretation is it? (Maybe the unobtainable)? Mmm?I certainly agree it is a brilliant piece. It's popularity also shows how timeless the message is.

Perfect for me is to keep mind and body coordination to the best of my ability. If I violate the Four Basic Principles (http://unofficial.ki-society.org/Four.html), then I know my practice is incorrect, even if the uke falls down.

For The Record
I think questioning the credentials of an instructor like Furuya Sensei is a little nuts.

jeffbowden
08-25-2004, 07:20 AM
For The Record
I think questioning the credentials of an instructor like Furuya Sensei is a little nuts

I can't agree more with this statement. There seems to be too much time spent on scrutinizing the details of Furuya Sensei's life. Granted, his notoriety has been enhanced specific to his television appearances, however, what seemingly goes unnoticed is the work that has been accomplished. His teachings and the success of his dojo speak for themselves. The fact that he (as well as many others) have taught unselfishly for so many years should be the focus of attention. I think it's time we start noting the work effort and the lifelong dedication to spreading Aikido. Anyone else agree ?

AsimHanif
08-25-2004, 09:53 AM
Jeff and Ted,
I agree with you in principle regarding questioning the credentials of Furuya Sensei. I actually have 3 of his tapes and find them useful. So I can base an opinion of his "credibility" by what I see of his technique as well as his writings.
But in reality, I don't see anything wrong in questioning someones credentials, especially for someone who may be new to aikido. Don't we do this everyday in business or when we purchase products? I think it's part of making an informed decision. I don't think questioning anyone's credentials has to be mean-spirited though. When I go to see a doctor, almost immediately I looking for that paper on the wall to let me know what medical school he attended. That may or may not tell me about how good that doctor is but it gives me some sense of what he's been exposed to.

twilliams423
08-25-2004, 12:27 PM
I've been training with Sensei Furuya for approximately 8 years now. He, along with a couple of other SoCal teachers were promoted to 6th Dan 9 or 10 years ago by second Doshu. The general details were handled primarily by Fujita Sensei. In the time that I have been with him, we have hosted several Hombu Dojo shihan, including Senseis Fujita, Ichihashi, Yonemochi. In fact, Yonemochi Sensei came out for our 30th Anniversary celebration recently ( I was highly honored to receive my 4th dan certificate from him). Ikeda Sensei and many other US based high ranking teachers have visited and continue a friendly connection with the ACLA dojo. It is, IMHO, an excellent dojo, and Sensei is, again IMO, a masterful instructor. I have been around a while and have trained, literally, around the world, so that's for what it's worth. I am sure anyone visiting LA would be welcome to join practice and see for yourself. Hopefully, this thread can eventually be put to rest and everyone can move on other things.

jeffbowden
08-25-2004, 01:41 PM
Asim, I agree that from a business perspective, questioning the rank of an instructor that you plan to study with or have a business relation with is acceptable. If I were walking into a new dojo today, I would most certainly ask (in a respectful way) the credentials of the teacher.

What is not necessary IMO is the continued focus on this reputable teachers history by the Aikido community for no other reason than to seemingly "have something to do". It's just not fair. My expectation are higher for the future of Aikido.

Kent Enfield
08-25-2004, 02:52 PM
I am one of the people who questioned Furuya sensei's credentials, and I still do. I was mostly curious about his iaido rank, as I do kendo and iaido myself. As he doesn't seem to be a member of the All United States Kendo Federation, the largest organization that grants ranks in iaido in the US, I asked when and from where or from whom he received the rank of rokudan renshi in iaido. Where is Furuya sensei's iaido rank from? Nowhere on the dojo's website does it say.There's nothing wrong with that question. It's no different than asking what aikido organization or instructor someone is affiliated with. His response was to state under whom he started kendo training when he was eight, then to list a whole bunch of aikido credentials.
I started my Kendo traning at 8 yrs old. And soon after started Iaido training under my teacher, Yoshinobu Takiguchi. I have continued Iaido training under many various teachers who have been few and hard to find. . . . [Aikido curriculum vitae snipped] . . . I hope this answers your questions and comments.I responded that he did not in fact answer my question.
I don't mean any offense, but this doesn't actually answer the question. Is your iaido rank from the All Japan Kendo Federation, the All Japan Iaido Federation, or somewhere else? If "somewhere else," where specifically?
He didn't give any further response about his iaido rank in that thread. He did continue to discuss what he wanted to accompish by showing aikido on that awful television show that prompted the thread. What he did do was post on the "voices of experience" forum, where I and most other people cannot reply directly:
In another forum, someone was asking me about my ranks in Iaido . . . I posted an explanation of my Iaido ranks in that forum but then removed it after a while so perhaps the inquirer saw it hopefully while it was on. Otherwise, the question will remain not addressed. . . . Further on in the same post he wrote:
This question really caused me to think back and I realized that I didn't even know the ranks of many of my Iaido teachers in the past. I think it was impolite to ask directly and I think it was not much of a concern for us then as ranks are now.The infamous "rank is not important and you're rude for asking" tact. To me, this is an enormous red flag. If rank isn't important, why is it the first thing about himself that he put on his own website?
Rev. Kensho Furuya is a 6th Dan in Hombu Aikido and 6th Dan Kyoshi in Muso Shinden Ryu IaidoIn my opinion, if you don't think your rank is important, don't put it on your website. On the other hand, if you do put it on your website, expect to be asked where it came from. Rank is only as valid as the issuing organization or instructor.

I stopped my inquiry at that point having decided that he was being intentionally evasive, another warning sign. Since I dropped the matter, I havn't made the following opinion public. Because he put his iaido rank out publically, but refuses to tell who awarded it to him, I consider him a potential fraud. I simply don't know, and he won't tell.

I was letting the issue lie, but since people are bringing it back up, I decided to post about my take on the whole matter.

Chuck Clark
08-25-2004, 03:00 PM
Hello Kent,

You asked in your way and he answered in his way.... very Japanese, I think.

By they way, I heard some good things about you from the training at Ft. Warden.

Regards,

AsimHanif
08-25-2004, 03:22 PM
Jeff, points taken and I do agree that Furuya Sensei has been put to task quite a bit on these forums probably for fair and unfair reasons.
I do know that there is a great deal of concern in the aikido community concerning credibility, especially as some of the older Shihan are passing on so the need for (respectable) inquiries of an instructors credibility is getting greater. I don't think it's fair to single out Furuya Sensei or anyone else in particular, I think this has to be across the board. For those that happen to know of a particular instructors lineage and ability, this would not be an issue and hopefully not an insult. For those people especially new to aikido and seeking a good instructor, questioning is necessary.
The disrespect should stop though. I think we have to ask ourselves how would we approach this issue if we were face to face with the instructor in question and not hide behind this virtual wall. I'm quite sure we would find a better way to put our questions if we were in a real world situation. I have to remind myself of this as well.

Fred Little
08-25-2004, 03:44 PM
Kent:

Reverend Furuya seems to have been fairly clear that his rank was in Muso Shinden Ryu, not in seitei iaido.

Without getting into the argument about whether or not MSR is genu-wine koryu, it is sufficiently similar that we can say that while there is some overlap between practitioners of various lines of koryu iai, neokoryu iai, and seitei iai, and some koryu practitioners may also be members of the AUSKF, the AUSKF has no authority whatever in regard to gradings within the various koryu and neokoryu schools. Indeed, the suggestion that it does has caused loud and bloodcurdling screams of outrage on other occasions in other venues.

Inasmuch as Reverend Furuya is not posting in this forum at present, your best bet might be to ask him directly and privately. If you're looking for a public answer, the Sword Arts Forum at E-Budo is likely to have several individuals sufficiently familiar with the various lines of MSR transmission to provide an answer.

Hope this helps,

Fred Little

Chris Li
08-25-2004, 04:02 PM
Hello Kent,

You asked in your way and he answered in his way.... very Japanese, I think.

None of my instructors in Japan ever mentioned their ranks, and it was never included in any of their advertising. However, none of them ever hesitated to answer a direct question.

Best,

Chris

Kent Enfield
08-25-2004, 05:01 PM
Reverend Furuya seems to have been fairly clear that his rank was in Muso Shinden Ryu, not in seitei iaido.Well, there is the little hitch of Muso Shinden Ryu as "real" koryu having it's own set of traditional licences. To be clear, I'm not suspcicious of his credentials because they're not from the AUSKF/IKF, I'm suspicious because he won't say where they're from.

George S. Ledyard
08-25-2004, 05:03 PM
I have absolutely no axe to grind regarding Furuya Sensei. So consider my thoughts here generic.

One's affiliation with a teacher or a lineage and how long one has been training are like a calling card in the Japanese martial arts. When I visited Japan no one asked me what my rank was... it was always "who is your teacher" and "how long have you trained". There seemed to be some underlying assumption about how hard you had been training so length of "time in" seemed to tell folks what they needed to know.

With the growth of Aikido there has developed a fairly wide range of experience such that the "time in" answer doesn't give a very good indication of someone's level or status. You can have twenty years of training twice a week at a community center dojo under someone relatively junior himself or you can have twenty years of training, six or seven days a week under a student of the Founder or equivalent. These are clearly two different things.

So people start to grasp onto "rank" as a way to peg someone into the hierarchy and figure out where they stand relative to ones self and ones tradition. But after almost fifty years of Aikido in America with shifting affiliations, the explosion in the number of organizations, etc. old timers often have a complicated history of training. Consequently, you have people with a vast experience who are without current association with any of the standard teachers or organizations which would grant rank that was unquestioned within the larger community.

Many people, finding themselves in this type of situation, turn to organizations like the the US Martial Arts Assoc to grant them rank that they feel is commensurate with their experience. But this approach has only served to obscure what, if any, meaning rank might have had since the people giving the rank out often don't have any recognized authority to do so. This is a bad approach in my opinion and only gives the impression of sleaziness and trying to get around the system.

I think we are getting to the point where these issues will have gone past the point of no return in that issues of rank etc simply won't mean anything. We are almost returning to the time when it was all about who your teacher is and how long have you trained? When there is no popularly recognized answer to this question, folks will inevitably fall back on asking people whose judgment they trust what they think about Sensei so and so. It's going to be more about what stature you've attained within the community and not about some number from a group no one has heard of or respects.

That said, it is perfectly reasonable to ask the pertinent questions when someone cites ranking. Who gave it to you is a very fair question and should have a very clear answer. If one doesn't wish to answer such questions one shouldn't publicly post the information...

In the case of a teacher like Furuya Sensei, I don't see the standard warning signs that give me the caution light. The ranks he is citing are quite commensurate with the time he has been active. The people he says he has trained with are well known instructors with whom his association would be relatively easy to document. Furuya Sensei is, in fact, a well known instructor who has written books, been active in the Aikido community, has authored many videos, etc. It would be extremely easy for anyone interested to see his Aikido or Iaido and judge if the rank claimed was equivalent to the ability being demonstrated. None of these things are true in the case of the typical self created charlatan. In fact, if you look at the profile of the martial arts liar, they usually lie big if they lie (8th - 10 Dan claims, Grand Masters, Sokes, black belts in multiple arts). I don't see any of these danger signs here and consequently would be inclined to be polite and respectful until some piece of first hand knowledge caused me to change my opinion.

It is very easy to embarrass oneself on-line by publicly casting aspersions on someone one later finds is quite a good instructor and someone one actually likes when you meet in person. Always best to be careful.

Kent Enfield
08-25-2004, 05:08 PM
None of my instructors in Japan ever mentioned their ranks, and it was never included in any of their advertising. However, none of them ever hesitated to answer a direct question.While my training in Japan has been very limited, my experiences both there and in the US match Christopher's.

Kent Enfield
08-25-2004, 05:24 PM
In the case of a teacher like Furuya Sensei, I don't see the standard warning signs that give me the caution light. The ranks he is citing are quite commensurate with the time he has been active.To be clear, I don't view the ranks he claims in and of themselves as any sort of warning sign. It is entirely and specifically his refusal to say from where he received his iaido rank, as he has been quite detailed regarding the aikido rank, that I view as a warning sign.

I only posted in this thread because others wrote things like I think questioning the credentials of an instructor like Furuya Sensei is a little nuts.I don't thnk it's "a little nuts," and I posted to explain why. I only posed the query about his iaido rank that lead to all of this out of the curiousity of a fellow practicioner. Iaido kodansha arn't all that common in the US.

George S. Ledyard
08-25-2004, 06:13 PM
To be clear, I don't view the ranks he claims in and of themselves as any sort of warning sign. It is entirely and specifically his refusal to say from where he received his iaido rank, as he has been quite detailed regarding the aikido rank, that I view as a warning sign.

I only posted in this thread because others wrote things like I don't thnk it's "a little nuts," and I posted to explain why. I only posed the query about his iaido rank that lead to all of this out of the curiousity of a fellow practicioner. Iaido kodansha arn't all that common in the US.
It's not inappropriate to ask. The ranks were posted so it's open season as far as I am concerend. The one pre-supposes the other; as soon as you say rank "x" the very next question is from "whom"...

But I have personally had the experience of offering a public apology on-line when I had inadvertently gone a bit too far in one of these discussions so it's always a good idea to act with restraint so you don't regret what you say later. This is a small community and getting smaller with events like the Expo bringing so many people together. You could very easily end up face to face with someone whom you had offended; best to avoid doing that unless it's such a clear cut case that you simply don't care.

tedehara
08-25-2004, 06:18 PM
...I only posted in this thread because others wrote things like I don't thnk it's "a little nuts," and I posted to explain why. I only posed the query about his iaido rank that lead to all of this out of the curiousity of a fellow practicioner. Iaido kodansha arn't all that common in the US.Jeff didn't write that, he was quoting me. Perhaps the best way to verify someone's training is privately, not on a public forum.

I wouldn't worry about it. It's nice to know people are, who they say they are - especially on the internet.
;)

Kent Enfield
08-25-2004, 07:02 PM
so it's always a good idea to act with restraint so you don't regret what you say later.This is why I've been careful to point out that I think Furuya sensei's "6th Dan Kyoshi in Muso Shinden Ryu Iaido" is suspect, not false. And just to be clear, I don't think it's false. I think it's in the "undetermined" catagory.

If and when that rank is determined to be from a legitimate source, I'll have no problem acknowledging it as such. Maybe it's the academic in me, but changing my opinion with new evidence seems natural, not embarassing.

Kent Enfield
08-25-2004, 07:04 PM
Jeff didn't write that, he was quoting me.Sorry. Ah, the perils of quoting multiple sources in one post.

JasonFDeLucia
08-26-2004, 08:40 PM
I'm a bit lost, what ranks in aikido and iaido exactly has M.Kensho Furuya and who were his teachers?
By teacher I mean instructor with whom M.Kensho Furuya practiced REGULARY during years, not occasional seminars.
I found it is very suspected he doesn't give honest, straithfull answer.
i think to suspect kensho furuya of dishonest anything is suspect.though i've never met him personally and he may not agree with my use of aikido. i know he is a sincere and diligent person and a perfect example of the technical form needed to absorb the art .not to mention he runs a school in a part of L.A that many people would not go to with out a gun.

twilliams423
08-27-2004, 12:29 PM
not to mention he runs a school in a part of L.A that many people would not go to with out a gun.

Not sure whom we should fear more... our neighbors, the local artists of the LA Artist district, or the architecture students from SCIArc from across the street? ;)

Don_Modesto
08-27-2004, 03:44 PM
Szczepan Janczuk wrote:
I'm a bit lost, what ranks in aikido and iaido exactly has M.Kensho Furuya and who were his teachers?
By teacher I mean instructor with whom M.Kensho Furuya practiced REGULARY during years, not occasional seminars.
I found it is very suspected he doesn't give honest, straithfull answer.

i think to suspect i think to suspect kensho furuya of dishonest anything is suspect.though i've never met him personally and he may not agree with my use of aikido. i know he is a sincere and diligent person and a perfect example of the technical form needed to absorb the art .not to mention he runs a school in a part of L.A that many people would not go to with out a gun.

One doesn't have to "suspect kensho furuya of dishonest anything" to appreciate straightforward answers. Their absence does, however, incline one toward suspicion, not because it's Furuya, but because it's evasive.

twilliams423
08-27-2004, 05:42 PM
Just because one is curious, does not entitle anyone to anything.

Chris Li
08-27-2004, 06:54 PM
Just because one is curious, does not entitle anyone to anything.

For a private individual, sure, but in this case the ranks are publicly stated as credentials for a commercial enterprise. I don't think that the questions are unreasonable, and the entire thread (as well as some other threads) could have been headed off by a one sentence factual reply.

Best,

Chris

Lyle Laizure
08-27-2004, 08:54 PM
None of my instructors in Japan ever mentioned their ranks, and it was never included in any of their advertising. However, none of them ever hesitated to answer a direct question.


Exactly. I have not trained in Japan but none of my instructors ever made it a point to mention rank in advertisements or in passing in class. If asked directly they have all been accomodating.

NagaBaba
08-27-2004, 09:44 PM
.not to mention he runs a school in a part of L.A that many people would not go to with out a gun.
If I run a school in bad area of any town, it means automaticly that my 6th dan in iaido is a real one?
Jason, think a bit before you post ;)

My iaido instructor had no prob to give a name of his teacher and how long he practiced with him. I'm very surprised that can be any problem with issue.

JasonFDeLucia
08-28-2004, 09:52 PM
Szczepan Janczuk wrote:
I'm a bit lost, what ranks in aikido and iaido exactly has M.Kensho Furuya and who were his teachers?
By teacher I mean instructor with whom M.Kensho Furuya practiced REGULARY during years, not occasional seminars.
I found it is very suspected he doesn't give honest, straithfull answer.

i think to suspect

One doesn't have to "suspect kensho furuya of dishonest anything" to appreciate straightforward answers. Their absence does, however, incline one toward suspicion, not because it's Furuya, but because it's evasive.
with respect ,when i watch him i have no reason to doubt his technical credentials so it would be easy to understand why he doesn't get into it .if that were me (and it is somewhat)if after seeing what he's doing ,to question credentials is somewhat of an insult.no man after a certain point should be considered because of some one elses name .there was a time when people stopped asking mr.ueshiba if he knew mr.takeda .if you see someones aiki and you don't like what they're doing or even if you do their teachers wont make a dimes worth of difference .that and he may have simple discrete professional reasons ,(as do many people who have had many teachers)reasons of loyalty.but if you wanted to ask some people who i think knew him ,not possible at this time but kisshomaru ueshiba was i think one of his teachers,and perhaps also yamada yoshimitsu.if you really wanted to bark up some lineage to satisfy your curiosity i think those are both valid avenues.but don't be suprised if he is not acknowledged as it is popular tradition .

Don_Modesto
08-29-2004, 12:05 PM
with respect ,when i watch him i have no reason to doubt his technical credentials so it would be easy to understand why he doesn't get into it .

Hi, Jason,

In a vacuum, I see your point. But we don't live in vacuums. The query doesn't even have to be about the individual we're asking. There are charlatan's out there and openness about lineage is one way to create an environment inhospitable to them.

JasonFDeLucia
08-29-2004, 07:15 PM
Hi, Jason,

In a vacuum, I see your point. But we don't live in vacuums. The query doesn't even have to be about the individual we're asking. There are charlatan's out there and openness about lineage is one way to create an environment inhospitable to them.
yes i agree completely ,i just assumed that kensho furuya would have been obvious by what we can see about him .i happen to have many of his tapes and i like them very much but i acknowledge that someone might have been contributing to the debate without the benefit of such knowledge.and in a vacuum there would be no reason to be evasive but back in the real world there are valid reasons.and i'm sure his friends and teachers appreciate his discretion .i wish that (and maybe he will)mr.furuya will look past the fact that some folks debate at a less pious level,and if he lends him self as an enduring example and not give up it will benefit all.FURUYA SAMA
KARADA O KOWASANAI MONO WA JIBUN O TSUYOKU SURU.