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Luis Orozco
08-17-2004, 05:55 AM
Hi guys,

I just had an "adventure" last weekend and thought about sharing it with you, to get your points of view on the issue.

On saturday night we went to a friend's party in his house (80's themed so we were all in costumes, I even had a wig). At around midnight, we decide to leave his house and go to a neighbourhood bar. Most of us had been drinking but were in a pretty good mood.

We get to the bar and everybody leaves their jackets in the cloakroom. I'm the last one and after paying ask for my ticket (which I hadn't seen they'd given to my girlfriend). They ignore me and I continue asking. Suddenly this bouncer (double my weight and probably on steroids) comes from inside of the bar, grabs me from the shoulders, pushes me out of the bar, takes me to the ground and puts his knee on my chest. I practise both aikido and capoeira, and on the moment decided to apply neither so that the situation wouldn't escalate, so only cushioned my fall by grabbing his arms and doing a small backward ukemi. They also kicked my friends out of this place (I was the only foreigner in the group, and do stand out). We're reporting them to the police, as we have plenty of witnesses.

The only thing that keeps nagging me in the back of my mind is: should I have used any tecnique (irimi nage would have been perfect, but a good kick would have worked as well) or did I react in the right way? I feel rather humiliated because it's the first time something like this happens to me and I really didn't do anything wrong, I'm not a violent person at all.

In the aftermath, I just got a small bruise in the elbow and my chest hurts slightly because of his knee, but basically no harm done.

So what would you say? :confused:

Troy
08-17-2004, 06:06 AM
I think you did the right thing. You didn't want the situation to get out of hand, so you went with the flow (so it sounds like). I have a feeling that if you did anything, the bouncer would tell the police that you assulted him. I probably would have did the same thing. Either that, or tried to do something to escape his hold. But I am glad that you and your frields are alright.

Yann Golanski
08-17-2004, 06:39 AM
As far as I am concerned you did the right thing. The bouncer was way out of line and I would bring charges of assault against him.

Fundamentally, no one was hurt which is a good thing in my book. Of course, the bouncer should feel the full weight of the book (TM) being thrown at him. *grins evilly*

DaveO
08-17-2004, 07:02 AM
My first question would be 'why did they kick you out?'
That's kinda the critical question here; everything else hinges around it. Not sure what bars are like in Finland; but in my experience bouncers - even bullying ones - need a reason to act in such a manner. For bullies; that reason can be very petty indeed; the least bit of provocation can spark a response.
Those types don't last long though; not as bouncers. Around here a hair-trigger bouncer generally lasts one day on the job; the bar that employs him won't accept such a liability - a civil suit can ruin an establishment.
(That's not to say there's not a lot of pi$$-poor, muscleheaded bouncers out there; there are. There's a lot of thick-skulled gorillas that like the petty power-trip of being the thug in the yellow shirt; the one to be feared. But the ones that start swinging without reason are setting their employer up for a major lawsuit. Taverns cannot afford that kind of legal risk; so the real mean brutes tend to get fired quickly.)
So anyway; now that you're sober it's time to look honestly and objectively at the events and isolate what you did - for you said you were the initial target of the bouncer's attention - that gave him (at least in his mind) reasonable cause to forcefully eject you. Caution: I am not assuming you were in the wrong; that hasn't been determined. I'm asking what did you do/say to make him select you at the target for ejection.
I'll look at your post from a site security viewpont.
1) "(I was the only foreigner in the group, and do stand out)." Without more information/evidence; I'm going to reject your racial inference completely - I assume that wasn't what you intended.

2) "On saturday night we went to a friend's party in his house (80's themed so we were all in costumes, I even had a wig). At around midnight, we decide to leave his house and go to a neighbourhood bar. Most of us had been drinking but were in a pretty good mood." Translation: You'd been drinking all night; and arrive at a bar already drunk. From your description; it sounds like you were in party mode. That's cool - I like doing that sort of thing myself; but look at it from a security point of view:
People go to a bar to socialize and drink. If you go to a bar already drunk; you've just placed yourself on the security staff's watch list - because you're already drunk; and are about to get drunker. Especially if you're in a large group (5+); that's a potential danger for the bouncer - people are braver when they're within their circle of friends and might do things - such as get violent when being cut off from the bar - they'd otherwise not do. That applies to anyone; not just bikers and greasers; a wise bouncer will tag such groups carefully.

3)"We get to the bar and everybody leaves their jackets in the cloakroom. I'm the last one and after paying ask for my ticket (which I hadn't seen they'd given to my girlfriend). They ignore me and I continue asking." It's a basic fact all cops know: No-one has ever started anything. Ever. It's always the other guy that started it - be it an argument, a fight, whatever. Ask anyone who's ever been tossed - particularly if you're in uniform when you're asking - and they'll tell you they were speaking calmly, rationally, etc. So I've got to ask you - just how nicely were you asking? How busy was the coat check - were you the only one there ore were they dealing with other clients? How insistent were you?

Look Luis; I've gotta be blunt - your description of your behaviour in the incident smells more than a bit like fish to me - sounds exactly like every other explanation I've heard from everyone who's wound up kissing concrete in front of a bar. Now please be aware; I'm not saying you were in the wrong; it's entirely possible the bouncer overreacted; it just that this is what I'm reading from what you've said; so my initial assumption is he most definitely had probable cause. I base my assumption both on what I've listed above and the following quotes as well:
"I practise both aikido and capoeira, and on the moment decided to apply neither so that the situation wouldn't escalate, so only cushioned my fall by grabbing his arms and doing a small backward ukemi."
"...should I have used any tecnique (irimi nage would have been perfect, but a good kick would have worked as well) or did I react in the right way?
OK; as someone who's been through way, way more physical encounters than I ever wanted to; I read it this way: Bouncer who was much larger than you grabs you, hauls you out of the bar etc. You could have taken him but chose not to.
Ermmmmm......... no. Sounds to me like he did his job well - got you out of there fast not giving you a chance to fight back. The "I could have done this and this to him" are just face-saving ploys.
Once again, I could be wrong; I know neither you nor him, I just know I've had to lay my hands on quite a few aggressive drunks in my time and have heard all the after-the-fact stories.
One last thing: "...I'm not a violent person at all."
That's just about the most common self-justification used. No-one ever is the violent one; though in your case I believe you wholeheartedly - your post reads that way to me. Alcohol does funny things though; some of the nicest people I know have done some pretty stupid crap when plastered.

I know this is not what you're looking for, I'm sorry - but if you're looking for honest opinions; this is mine.

Greg Jennings
08-17-2004, 07:05 AM
You did The Right Thing (tm).

The only thing that I would have done differently is to either tried to subtly get off line of the first attack or to have taken him into guard once it was obvious I was going down on my back.

Regards,

David_francis
08-17-2004, 07:34 AM
I agree that you did the right thing. Of course it would have been good for your ego to get a irimi nage on him but not good for a possible law suit. Live to fight another day.

Luis Orozco
08-17-2004, 07:43 AM
Hi Dave,

Thanks for a very good response from the "bouncer/security point of view". I'll answer to your questions one by one.

Translation: You'd been drinking all night; and arrive at a bar already drunk. From your description; it sounds like you were in party mode. That's cool - I like doing that sort of thing myself; but look at it from a security point of view

People go to a bar to socialize and drink. If you go to a bar already drunk; you've just placed yourself on the security staff's watch list - because you're already drunk; and are about to get drunker. Especially if you're in a large group (5+); that's a potential danger for the bouncer - people are braver when they're within their circle of friends and might do things - such as get violent when being cut off from the bar - they'd otherwise not do. That applies to anyone; not just bikers and greasers; a wise bouncer will tag such groups carefully.

Yes, we arrived in the bar after drinking during the night, but however, that's socially acceptable and expected here (few people get drunk in a bar, as it is extremely expensive). You see plenty of people already drunk entering bars (it was funny to me the first months, but it is like that). We were more than five, but that includes girlfriends (don't know if it's a factor).

OK; as someone who's been through way, way more physical encounters than I ever wanted to; I read it this way: Bouncer who was much larger than you grabs you, hauls you out of the bar etc. You could have taken him but chose not to.
Ermmmmm......... no. Sounds to me like he did his job well - got you out of there fast not giving you a chance to fight back. The "I could have done this and this to him" are just face-saving ploys.
Once again, I could be wrong; I know neither you nor him, I just know I've had to lay my hands on quite a few aggressive drunks in my time and have heard all the after-the-fact stories.


On taking him, one thing to forgot to mention was, there was another bouncer behind him very close to my girlfriend, so I didn't want to put anybody in danger (yes, me included).

It's a basic fact all cops know: No-one has ever started anything. Ever. It's always the other guy that started it - be it an argument, a fight, whatever. Ask anyone who's ever been tossed - particularly if you're in uniform when you're asking - and they'll tell you they were speaking calmly, rationally, etc. So I've got to ask you - just how nicely were you asking? How busy was the coat check - were you the only one there ore were they dealing with other clients? How insistent were you?

The guy in the cloakroom was not busy after I had given them my jacket as I was the last one, but didn't even turn to face me. I didn't touch him. I was a little insistent, though. I didn't use a swearword (I know because I don't know how to use them in Finnish and not sound childish), and didn't oppose any resistance either other than hold the bouncer's arms when he was pushing me to the ground to cushion the fall.

However, when they were pushing the rest of the group out they did call us something like "go away f****ing drug addicts!", so it was not exactly a nice affair. None of them opposed physical resistance.

Before doing anything related to law, I did ask one of our group (who was sober and saw everything, being just before my girlfriend in the cloakroom) if I had done anything irrational and for his version of the story, and it checks up with what I'm telling you here.

So in short to My first question would be 'why did they kick you out?' I can only answer that I can't think about anything other than asking for the ticket to my coat.

If you want more details I can give them to you. Thanks for a honest reply!

DaveO
08-17-2004, 08:32 AM
Hi again, Luis. :)

Hmmmm - this is a bit of a poser for me; I can't provide an answer for this one; though that's not exactly uncommon. :D (Actually; I've always got an answer for everything - whether or not what I think reflects reality is another matter. LOL!)
I don't know enough about Finnish culture and evening habits to be able to say one way or the other; what's normal one place certainly might not be in another.
But; the thing that's got me confused concerning the situation is the actions of the bouncer in question - the physical force he used on you. It sounds to me like an ejection; not an assault - he acted in your description like a good bouncer might; getting a disorderly person out the door fast and with a reasonable amount of safety. A bully would likely have been far more rough given the chance - I'm sure there are lots of us who've seen what some bozos'll do given the least bit of opportunity.
Your statement that: "they did call us something like "go away f****ing drug addicts!" helps a bit; but there's still a huge grey area there; assuming everything you've said is factually correct. (Sorry; had to put that in - the difficulty in dealing with eyewitness accounts; especially from the people involved, is that what they can see and experience might be vastly different from what actually happened; due to their emotions and viewpoints colouring their testimony.)
If you wish there's another source of information I could try; one which would certainly yield results:
I belong to a mailing list which serves as a forum for defence professionals within a vast field of experience; from LEO's to lawyers, government sources, soldiers, martial arts practicioners/teachers, etc., ad nauseam. The list is worldwide; and I know several of the lists's members have first-hand experience in Finland.
This has got me curious as well ( :) ); so with your permission I'd like to forward this post to the list to get their take on it - if the respondents give permission I could forward their responses to you.
(FYI; the List is here (http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/animallist.html); part of the No Nonsense Self Defense (http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/) site - very, very highly recommended reading.)

Any sort of assault or physical confrontation is a very serious affair; at the very least it provides a valuable lesson so I'd like to help. If you want; please say so and I'll have it up in about 2 minutes. ;)

Cheers!

Lyle Laizure
08-17-2004, 09:25 AM
Hmmmm. It does sound like an eventful evening. I would have to agree with Dave's first and second post.

Luis Orozco
08-18-2004, 05:07 AM
Hi, thanks everybody for your responses. I'll check it out and tell you what happens.

Regards,
Luis

ian
08-18-2004, 07:57 AM
It's very difficult, and unfair, to judge a situation from a verbal or written description. So many subtle things happen in a confrontation. Personally if no-one gets seriously injured I always consider it a success. Aikido isn't about winning fights, it is about successfully dealing with confrontation. Don't beat yourself up about what you should and shouldn't have done. Many bouncers try to get rid of perceived threats before they even know the situation (which got me involved in a fight once).

I doubt if the police will do anything. Write to the manager of the club, identify the person who threw you out and tell them that you will no longer frequent the club. I doubt if anything will happen, but these places can legally throw you out for no reason.

I was impressed you did a reverse ukemi. If you are ever put on the ground the best thing is to get up as quick as possible because it is a life threatening situation. There is a difference between not insitgating violence and being passive. Protecting yourself doesn't mean hurting them.Yeh, maybe you should have avoided being touched at all, but who am I to judge? Use this as a practical lesson.

Ian

NagaBaba
08-18-2004, 09:22 AM
Hi guys,
So what would you say? :confused:
Now you know, that your Ki aikido is completly useless outside of dojo.
You wasn't able to keep one point, extend your Ki and relax you shoulders. Have you ever seen what K.Tohei sensei did with attackers against grab to the shoulders? Shame on you. This is basic attack. K.Tohei NEVER let grab his shoulders, he was always moving and attackers felt down themselves.

Now all pll will think that Ki aikido is not good for fighting and every bouncer can kick aikidokas ass. Nice done.

L. Camejo
08-18-2004, 09:40 AM
Ian alludes to something I was thinking as well. I also agree with his position of it being difficult to judge from the written accounts.

I think you did the right thing generally. However, I would not have let him get close enough to get his hands on me to begin with. It's not to say that I would do anything to attack the person, I would just not let them get their hands on me, while keeping distance and forcing them to rationally state why they are removing me by calmly talking and asking them why I should leave. This adds time for them to cool down their initial thrust and address the actual issue intellectually (even if at some basic primitive level), if there really is one. Often I've found that whether it be cops, security officers, bouncers etc. the initial contact tends to have much more energy and emotion attached than necessary and this can end up injuring someone (or getting injured themselves if the target is uncooperative, equipped and motivated).

In my experience (which may not be yours) bouncers tend to fall into 2 types - those professionally trained at some level to handle conflict with an understanding of the force continuum and escalation, and the muscle bound, over kiaied ex-security officer, martial artist etc. etc. etc. One tends to take a calmer, more informed and focused approach towards removing a potential threat than the other.

Imo, taking you to the ground and putting his knee on your chest was going overboard as he had already placed you out of the establishment (at least from what I've read). At that point he went over the line as his job authority is limited to the establishment and removing you if you are causing trouble. The sort of action he used afterward would only have been justifiable had you begun to fight back or something, requiring this extra degree of force to control you.

As said earlier, it's hard to determine either way what really happened from the account, so I say be thankful that neither of you were put in a position where injuring the other became a preferable option and that no one got seriously hurt.

LC:ai::ki:

Street Fighter
08-18-2004, 11:08 AM
Dude you did the best thing, had you resisted you would have had the s*it kicked out of you, bouncers don't move alone and you would have had two or three of them kicking your head in.

Live with it.

You did alright

Street Fighter
08-18-2004, 11:24 AM
And to all you fantasists, your not Ueshiba you know! Wakey wakey hands off snakey.

Mark Uttech
08-18-2004, 12:29 PM
[B]Going to a bar at night is always the first bad move. In gassho, tamonmark

Amassus
08-18-2004, 10:23 PM
I don't agree with people trashing the fact that Luis was taken to the ground.
I sure as hell know that if I had been drinking that I most likely would not 'get off line' or use my ki. Drunk people tend to have trouble with that sort of thing ;)

Infamousapa
08-18-2004, 11:26 PM
you should of applied something on the bouncer.Hey you were attacked,when will you use your practi ce on someone.you bitched out

Bronson
08-19-2004, 01:32 AM
I think you should go back to the bar completely sober at the beginning of his shift and POLITELY and HUMBLY ask the bouncer what you did wrong so that you could make every effort to not make the same mistakes in the future.

Let us know what he says ;)

Bronson

L. Camejo
08-19-2004, 09:49 AM
Drunk or not, a bouncer has no right to take a person to the ground if he has already removed the person from the establishment, unless they are resisting and making things continually difficult, in which case, taking them to the ground adds a degree of leverage in securing the resistant person. From the story it is not clear how drunk the people involved were, but it is stated that Luis was taken to the ground after being placed out of the establishment, which imho is beyond the bouncer's jurisdiction. As no one was actually there but Luis, it is difficult to make specific judgements either way.

On another note, it has become instinctive in our dojo's training to deter being taken to the ground as much as possible as it is not a preferable position from which to mount an effective defense using the Aikido we do. But this is just my view.

The thing is, it left him very vulnerable had the bouncers (or anyone else who had the urge) possessed other objectives like kicking his brains in for the fun of it etc. It's just not a good place to be, especially with someone double my weight and probably on steroids.:)

In these situations stupid moves and choices can often cause things to escalate very stupidly and get folks killed even more stupidly. It has happened recently in this country. Luis did well to not fight back, but being taken to the ground is not a preferable position had things suddenly changed for the worse, given his stated training imho. The Art of Peace is not the Art of putting oneself in unnecessary danger imho.:)

Just my feeling, I reserve the right to be wrong.:)
LC:ai::ki:

Street Fighter
08-19-2004, 10:54 AM
Sapa how many bouncers have you fought in your time? Furthermore how many "real fights" have you had, sapa where do you live? oh thats right, Hollywood.

Here is a checklist for Luis:

1- Do you have all your teeth? check
2- Do you have both eyes? check
3- Both lungs in working order? check
4- Spine intact? check
5- Can you walk?check
6- Nose and ears? check

No one is addressing the fact that aikido although a very effective art, Im not debating that, will not make anyone invincible, these guys are very strong and hit very hard and are not shy of using metal bars, bats or other goodies kept behind the counter if things get outta hand.

This is Tony keeping my aikido brothers and sisters real.

Jorx
08-19-2004, 01:14 PM
I would like to point out one thing:

The bouncer was fairly large and after taking you down he put a knee across your stomach (I've never seen a groundfighting-noob do that). Quite a few of bouncers in Helsinki train in Alliance Jiu-jitsu club. Sounds like one of those huge bluebelts to me. SO probably if you would have done ANYTHING to provoke him further it would've ended badly to you as you are trained in Aikido and Capoeira both arts rarely train against resistance and bjj does that daily.

As far as the assault goes, I think it was a misunderstanding in your favor - when you drop charges the you'll be the righteous one in court.

shihonage
08-19-2004, 01:51 PM
I think there's a middle solution that you were unable to implement, and that's whats nagging at you.

The middle solution would be to avoid the bouncer from shoving you around by keeping your "ukemi" one step ahead of the bouncer.

So, he would achieve his goal of you leaving, without letting him throw you on the ground and put a knee on your chest.

L. Camejo
08-19-2004, 02:37 PM
Perfectly put Aleksey.:)

disabledaccount
08-19-2004, 05:51 PM
I guess I've got to disagree with most of the folks commenting here. Hindsight indicates you did the right thing from the standpoint that no one was hurt badly etc. But when the bouncer placed his hands on you without provocation, you didn't know that's how it was going to turn out. You could have just as easily been seriously injured or killed. A guy "twice (your) size and probably on steroids" shoves you out of a bar, knocks you down, then puts his knee in your chest and you didn't resist at all? I would have feared for my life the moment he touched me, and acted accordingly. You put way too much faith in that guy's intentions and sense of mercy, especially when he had just proven that he was willing to attack you without provocation. It could've gotten you killed. I think deep down you know this, which is why you're questioning yourself now. If I were you, I'd resolve to never allow someone to threaten my safety again, and I'd be ready to argue this in court if it came to that. Better to be judged by twelve than carried by six.

Infamousapa
08-19-2004, 07:50 PM
I guess I've got to disagree with most of the folks commenting here. Hindsight indicates you did the right thing from the standpoint that no one was hurt badly etc. But when the bouncer placed his hands on you without provocation, you didn't know that's how it was going to turn out. You could have just as easily been seriously injured or killed. A guy "twice (your) size and probably on steroids" shoves you out of a bar, knocks you down, then puts his knee in your chest and you didn't resist at all? I would have feared for my life the moment he touched me, and acted accordingly. You put way too much faith in that guy's intentions and sense of mercy, especially when he had just proven that he was willing to attack you without provocation. It could've gotten you killed. I think deep down you know this, which is why you're questioning yourself now. If I were you, I'd resolve to never allow someone to threaten my safety again, and I'd be ready to argue this in court if it came to that. Better to be judged by twelve than carried by six.EVERYONE SHOULD LISTEN TO THIS GUY..VERY WELL PUT..

MitchMZ
08-19-2004, 08:33 PM
I think the "kill or be killed" mindset is a logical fallacy, and definitely not the aim of aikido. The aim of aikido is effective self defense without harming the attacker. But, I guess everyone has a different opinion of what self defense is. I think reading intent is important. If the attackers intent is to steal my wallet from me and apply a deadly atemi to him...thats totally ridiculous...and morally wrong. The mindset I have is reflective of the art I've chosen. ;) An extremely defensive art like aikido is not for everyone. And, yes, I have used my martial arts knowledge in a street situation on two occassions and both happened in a split second with either the attacker laying a few feet in front of me or me on a mounted position on them. No harm done either time with the exception of a small bruise on the attacker.

Ian Williams
08-19-2004, 09:09 PM
man assaulted in bar, police claim he's nuts..

disabledaccount
08-19-2004, 10:51 PM
I think the "kill or be killed" mindset is a logical fallacy, and definitely not the aim of aikido. The aim of aikido is effective self defense without harming the attacker. But, I guess everyone has a different opinion of what self defense is..

No one said the bouncer should have been killed, only that to go along with an attacker's efforts to harm you is a grave error. NOTHING in aikido's self-defense strategy suggests that you make no attempt to defend yourself when you are attacked.

I think reading intent is important.

I agree whole heartidly. The point of this unfortunate story is that the guy didn't correctly read his opponent's intent. We could infer that the bouncer's intentions were to harm the man the moment he laid his hands on him. The bouncer's action following the grab (throwing him on the pavement and kneeling on his chest) further supports my position that he intended to harm his victim. These actions are considered assault and battery in most U.S. jurisdictions, and I'd wager they're illegal in Finland too.

In simplest terms, the refusal to acknowledge an aggressor's intention to do you harm is a dangerous, and possibly fatal mistake.

Chris Birke
08-19-2004, 11:54 PM
"No one said the bouncer should have been killed, only that to go along with an attacker's efforts to harm you is a grave error."

No, I'm pretty sure that's wrong.

First, you don't win a fight with a bouncer at a bar.

Second, by this logic we should resist police, because they may be corrupt or psychopathic.

Resisting in this situation would most likely have been bad.

Luis Orozco
08-20-2004, 03:40 AM
Thanks for the posts everyone, plenty of food for thought (or practise) here.

Aleksey gives another option that sounds pretty much like what I'd liked to do (but didn't think about).

Also Bodhi and Tony talk about what the intent was, and whether I read it right. I think you've got a valid point but in the end it did turn out alright. I'll give you another piece of information for your interpretation: after ending in the ground, I let go his shoulders (which I had grabbed to cushion my attempted ukemi) and smiled while he was looking at me (more of a "you've done what you wanted" rather than "I'm insane" kind of gesture). This made him let me go even as they continued abusing verbally of us.

I know for a fact that physical violence is not as common here as in my home country, so that added to my feeling of the situation then made me not expect any punches or further escalation if I didn't punch first (I also happen to use glasses). If this guy had done it, he'd be facing time in jail. As it stands, it seems that according to my lawyer, they'd be getting a fine and a revocation of the "bouncing license" of the involved individual (no results on this yet).

All in all, it seems to be fine, but I'll have to learn from this.

Thanks guys! :)

bogglefreak20
08-20-2004, 04:41 AM
[QUOTE=Luis Orozco] I'm not a violent person at all.
QUOTE]


Stay that way. And of course, keep training. ;)

Cyrijl
08-23-2004, 11:40 AM
1-I agree most with Dave's Original post. If oyu are drinking what appears to you to be normal is probably not viewed by others the same way.

2-The only thing that I would have done differently is to either tried to subtly get off line of the first attack or to have taken him into guard once it was obvious I was going down on my back This answer is not good. Just because you take someone into your gueard does not protect you. If the bouncer was bigger he could still strike luiz from within the guard. Pulling guard, may have made the bouncer even more angry.

3-All of those ppl who say "talk calmly and etc." are out of their minds. For many cases, if the bouncer has decided to eject you, you go peacefully. It is hard to thorw someone if they are being cooperative and walking out the door. Plus even talking calmly can be looked at as being passive-agressive.

4-Aikido and capoiera---LOL. This guy would have ripped you apart. THAT IS HIS JOB. And like someone already said, he doesn't work alone.

The fact that no one got hurt and noone had to go to jail that night is a good thing. Be more careful next time and better aware of your surroundings. There is no way to tell what could have happened.

disabledaccount
08-23-2004, 02:05 PM
Second, by this logic we should resist police, because they may be corrupt or psychopathic.

Resisting in this situation would most likely have been bad.

Actually, a bouncer isn't a sworn officer acting in the public interest. He/she is a private security officer, most often not licensed as someone intimated, and is not authorized by law in most jurisdictions to lay hands on another unless the individual in question poses an imedeate physical danger to himself, the individual or a third party. Police officers are bound by the same convention with the additional right to use force if an individual resists arrest (see Tennessee v Garner, 471 U.S. 1, 105 S. Ct. 1694, 85 L.Ed. 2d 1 [1985]). According to our thread starter, these conditions were not met.

All of those ppl who say "talk calmly and etc." are out of their minds. For many cases, if the bouncer has decided to eject you, you go peacefully.


Once again, the bouncer would have been required by law to tell the patron to leave the premisis before resorting to physically man-handling the patron, even a police officer would have been bound to do the same. The bouncer, according to the victim did not meet this requirement, therefore I am suspicious of his intent.


The fact that no one got hurt and noone had to go to jail that night is a good thing.

In fact the victim stated that he had a mark on his chest and that it was sore. This constitutes an injury the last time I checked. Perhaps criminal charges are not in order with this situation, but the victim could certainly pose a decent case to bring a civil suit against the bouncer and the establishment he works for.

Chris Birke
08-23-2004, 05:02 PM
My reason for not resisting police and bouncers has nothing to do with law and everything to do with odds. Odds of bad things happening in the course of resistence far outweigh the odds of bad things happening otherwise. Resisting the police (or bouncers) is almost always failure (for innumerable and clear reasons).

Moreover, the law only matters after the fact. Add to this you are quoting American laws to the matter of a Finnish bouncer, and you can begin to see their distance from the physical reality.

The present matter was, "would resistence have been better than complacency?" Given the enviorment, social customs, and odds, the answer is probably no. Given the average skill of middle weight drunken Aikidoist vs sober heavyweight Bouncer(s), the answer is still no. The results support this statement.

The patrons of the bar are also in on the matter. They have not looked up case histories on the internet, and feel that the bouncers are authoritiy figures within their rights at the bar. They feel, whoever you are, you probably deserve to get thrown out, and perhaps a light blow or two. If you were being severly beaten, they might come to your aid as your only realistic chance of salvation should things escalate.

If you put up much resistence (especially if you strike) they will happily sit by and watch you get beaten. In their minds, you clearly deserve it at that point. This is the law that matters most in the present situation, not the one in the books.

By not resisting, not only do you please the patrons and bar's sense of justice, you are right within American law too.

What would you have done in this case? Threatened to sue? Any other sort of resistence that comes to mind seems incredibly risky.

It may seem esoteric, but the best "resistence" in this case is passivity.

Street Fighter
08-23-2004, 05:53 PM
I should probably add that had you gotten into a fight with this guy, had you been beaten up, had you both been arrested as usually happens when you decide to press charges, had you spent a few hours in a cell cooling down and feeling those bruises then been interviewed you would probably have been advised to drop charges or possibly you would have both gotten a legal slap on the wrists, prison for the bouncer I very much doubt it he'd probably be on the door the very next day whilst at best youd be nursing a briken nose/black eye. I love it when these guys (samurai jack for one) give it all the bravado when theyve probably pussied out many times themselves. On another note this demonstrated how groundwork is sadly neglected in aikido. Even six months in BJJ can help. :disgust:

Street Fighter
08-23-2004, 06:05 PM
:grr:
On the subject of reading intentions, are any of you lot mind readers? No your not. Luis my soundest advice is make up your own mind for next time you have a confrontation. My advice to you is if theres one guy giving you shit and hes got no friends around and no weapons fight, if theres two guys no friends hanging around and no weapons fight, if theres three or more pretend your dumb and walk off, if necessary run! you get no points for fighting and getting beaten up that kind of thing can stay with you and turn you into a violent psychopath evileyes, get some fighting experience if you must one on one and then you can graduate to two three four etcetera, id say fighting skills is 10 percent of it, heart and experience make up the rest. I know a lot of you are going to think what is this guy on just dont like to see bambi caught in the headlights.

Aikido is a martial art, ie fighting art, enough of this spiritual, what if, you could have done this business, get a black eye or two, experience the fear of losing your life and then come to this site and post what Luis should have done in that situation.

Zato Ichi
08-23-2004, 07:07 PM
Luis, 20-20 hindsight and all that. You got out of the situation with some minor injuries. If you fell it's warranted to sue, go for it, but I wouldn't really question it at this point. As long as you learned something from this (i.e. taisabaki, my friend, taisabaki), just move on....

My advice to you is if theres one guy giving you shit and hes got no friends around and no weapons fight, if theres two guys no friends hanging around and no weapons fight, if theres three or more pretend your dumb and walk off, if necessary run!

Antonio, aside from your first point being macho BS (go read No Nonsense Self Defense (http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/)), your second point is libel to end up with the person getting beaten badly if they're lucky, being hospitalized or worse in all probability. A two on one fight is not a winning proposition for anyone. There are people out there who might be able to fend off two attackers, maybe you're one of them, but not only does that take some very intense specialized training, it also depends on your two opponents being total morons. And, as others have mentioned in far more detail than I could, there are serious repercussions for fighting, let alone starting a fight. AFAIK some punk talking trash does not constitute grounds for a beating.

Street Fighter
08-23-2004, 10:33 PM
I personally have fought three guys at once without anything more serious than a graze, this before I took up aikido, This type of thing is not uncommon its all about scaring the other guys and making them think your crazy, beleive me it works although not all the time. A friend of mine took on 15+ people some of which had weapons ie baseball bats etc, all he had was a chain with a padlock on the end, to make a long story short he took out the ringleader and chased the rest off once they saw the ringleaders bone sticking out of his arm. My point is you can beat the odds if you make people lose heart.

Not macho bullshit just fact. Police, bouncers, security staff all deal with being out numbered in fights, they only come out on top because they have heart. I dont care if your a black belt if you havent experienced the real thing you are liable to freeze when it does eventually happen. :uch:

Street Fighter
08-23-2004, 10:51 PM
Oh and another thing Hori, you dont learn about fighting in books, typical I read this book I read that book type warrior. Ill tell you what next time your in a fight get your, hang on im trying to suppress some laughter "no nonsense self defense" book and work out which defense is best for that right hook coming at your jaw.

PeterR
08-23-2004, 11:10 PM
Oh and another thing Hori, you dont learn about fighting in books, typical I read this book I read that book type warrior. Ill tell you what next time your in a fight get your, hang on im trying to suppress some laughter "no nonsense self defense" book and work out which defense is best for that right hook coming at your jaw.

A lot of incorrect assumptions about Hori-san.

One of the studpidest things I did in my life (long before Aikido) was take on two guys in the London Underground. I got the purse back with nothing more than a grazed knee and set of knuckles but what if????

20/20 hindsight tells me Hori-san and Mark "Animal" MacYoung are perfectly correct.

Hori-san

Will you be attending the special training session and the Sato party afterwards next Sunday and when will you come down to Himeji again.

shihonage
08-23-2004, 11:17 PM
When I was 15 I got into a fight with two guys, well, actually I thought it was one.
The other one ran out from behind, leaped onto my back, and the one in front of me drove into me at the same time, and in no time I was lying completely trapped on the ground while one of them sitting on me and punching me in the face repeatedly.

Mind you I was a complete tool back then, but still.

PeterR
08-23-2004, 11:21 PM
Mind you I was a complete tool back then, but still.
Trying real hard to control my typing :D

Street Fighter
08-23-2004, 11:24 PM
I can see you still angry about that incident Aleksey, hence your into aikido. If you had your time again I can assure you you would not be all spiritual and "Ill only use the necessary force" nonsense.
Difficult to when youve been punched silly

shihonage
08-23-2004, 11:32 PM
I can see you still angry about that incident Aleksey, hence your into aikido. If you had your time again I can assure you you would not be all spiritual and "Ill only use the necessary force" nonsense.
Difficult to when youve been punched silly

Actually that was just one incident.
I was no "hardcore street thug", far from it, but before I reached 17 and migrated to United States, I've had the misfortune of being in a lot of scuffles with other wannabe tough guys from in our yard, school, etc.
I've been given several black eyes, kicked in the nuts, punched in the diaphragm, attacked by a gang (police showed up by the time the first few punches were thrown and I nearly peed my pants), and those profound memories has shaped me into the outstanding member of society I am today.
(/sarcasm)

Yes I think "only necessary force" is a silly idea in a situation when you are suddenly attacked and you don't know whether the person is on drugs or carrying a knife, etc.
In such a situation, closest weapon - closest target, if your elbow can reach his throat with the minimum time, so be it, if your fingers can be buried in his eyes, do it, don't stop, scratch the face, take his ears and smash his face on your knee, just dont stop, etc.

But a bouncer, inside a club, in front of witnesses and probably other bouncers, I think it would be relatively safe to assume that he isnt going to cross a certain limit if you dont give him a reason.
I don't think Luis should have engaged the bouncer, because nothing good would've come out of it, no matter the outcome.

Zato Ichi
08-23-2004, 11:53 PM
Antonio, there's no point in arguing with you, so let me just say I'm happy for you that you're among the toughest men on the earth, and you're totally correct about me: I'm a little keyboard warrior who learns about fighting from books and I've never been in a fight in my life. :rolleyes:

BTW you might want to actually take a look at that site: I'm just a shmuck on a message board, but Marc MacYoung is quite respected among cops, security professionals, and martial artists.

Will you be attending the special training session and the Sato party afterwards next Sunday and when will you come down to Himeji again.

I'll be there on Sunday... sounds like an interesting day Shihan has planned. Especially since it's appearantly being added to the official syllabus. I'm probably not sticking around afterwards though... I promised a friend I'd go watch his capoera grading demo. One thing I'll say about capoera (and at the risk of being totally sexist): a lot of cute women train in it ;)

I'll try and get up to the the dojo next time you guys train on Sunday, as I'm pretty much much stuck working Saturday until the evening. :( I'll give you.a buzz when I'm gonna come down

PeterR
08-24-2004, 12:00 AM
A I'm a little keyboard warrior
:cough:

Especially since it's appearantly being added to the official syllabus.

Really?? How so?

I'm probably not sticking around afterwards though... I promised a friend I'd go watch his capoera grading demo. One think I'll say about capoera (and at the risk of being totally sexist): a lot of cute women train in it ;)

No kidding. I'm thinking of switching just for that.

I'll try and get up to the the dojo next time you guys train on Sunday, as I'm pretty much much stuck working Saturday until the evening. :( I'll give you.a buzz when I'm gonna come down
Anytime. As before best if you crash at my place the night before.

Zato Ichi
08-24-2004, 12:09 AM
Really?? How so?

Well, take it with a grain of salt, as it's second hand information, but the kaeshi waza (sp?) is being added to the shodan syllbus starting next year. The rumor's been floating around honbu for a while, and appearantly that's why Shihan is holding the clinic this Sunday - to introduce the techniques to a wider audience.

No kidding. I'm thinking of switching just for that.

LOL!

PeterR
08-24-2004, 12:31 AM
Well, take it with a grain of salt, as it's second hand information, but the kaeshi waza (sp?) is being added to the shodan syllbus starting next year. The rumor's been floating around honbu for a while, and appearantly that's why Shihan is holding the clinic this Sunday - to introduce the techniques to a wider audience.
Ah - you mean as opposed to Ikkyu. Wonder what will take its place. Just something more for you to worry about Bwahahahahahaha. :p

Zato Ichi
08-24-2004, 12:40 AM
Ah - you mean as opposed to Ikkyu. Wonder what will take its place. Just something more for you to worry about Bwahahahahahaha. :p

Nope... that was my first impression as well, but this is different than ikkyu's urawaza. I was watching a few of the higher levels practice, and Sakai sensei was demonstrating a few techniques to me after class one time. It's not entirely new, but it's not something I've seen regularly done in any of the normal practices....

And that's why I'm hoping Shihan let's me test before the end of the year... all I need is more techniques to worry about plus the pressure of the test itself :D

PeterR
08-24-2004, 12:51 AM
Hmmm. I have an idea what we are talking about but in any case Sunday will be interesting.

Ditto on the end of the year with respect to grading - if the requirement percolates up it is something I don't need.

George S. Ledyard
08-24-2004, 04:47 AM
Actually, a bouncer isn't a sworn officer acting in the public interest. He/she is a private security officer, most often not licensed as someone intimated, and is not authorized by law in most jurisdictions to lay hands on another unless the individual in question poses an imedeate physical danger to himself, the individual or a third party.
Actually, Bodhi, In most jurisdictions as employees of a private business, in this case club security, they have the right to physically intervene even if there is no immediate threat. A club with a dress code can throw you out if you refuse to leave on your own steam just because you aren't dressed according to their code. You can be asked to leave if your behavior is objectionable, even if it presents no immediate threat, if you refuse they can go hands on. A store employee can restrain you if you are caught shoplifting even though you offer no threat. Personal protection personnel can be physical simply in oreder to prevent you from getting into position to present a threat to their principal.

The legal standard simply calls for the amount of force used to be "reasonable" based on the threat presented by the subject.

Cyrijl
08-26-2004, 12:25 PM
Bodhi Richards --- lol

The police (at least here in america), do not have to talk to you at all. Even if they have to use physical force. There are cases when force is used to gain control and then the talking is done...i am sure it is similar in finland.

The law, lol.

disabledaccount
08-26-2004, 01:53 PM
You can be asked to leave if your behavior is objectionable, even if it presents no immediate threat, if you refuse they can go hands on.

The legal standard simply calls for the amount of force used to be "reasonable" based on the threat presented by the subject.

Ah, and herein lies the crux of my argument, According to the victim, the bouncer failed to make a verbal demand that the victim leave before laying on of hands took place. If this is truly the case, and the victim did not intentionally mislead us in his account (I admit this is a BIG if), the bouncer did not act within the confines of the law.

Bodhi Richards --- lol

The police (at least here in america), do not have to talk to you at all. Even if they have to use physical force. There are cases when force is used to gain control and then the talking is done...i am sure it is similar in finland.

The law, lol.

This is funnier than you think. I'm currently working on a riminal Justice degree and attending the local police academy. Sure I'm less than a rookie, but on the other hand, I've got a bit more clarity than most on what authority an officer can exercise use of force.

I'm surprised at the number of flames guys, especially since most of you are advocating support for a pacifistic response to an attacker.

disabledaccount
08-26-2004, 03:17 PM
Oh shoot, what happened to our edit button? I misspelled Criminal Justice. Guess I'll have to get used to using the spehl chequer from here on.