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Devon Natario
08-13-2004, 07:27 PM
Just curious how many instructors out there train their students in Breakfalling. Does your dojo train in breakfalling?

I mean left, right, backward, forward, rolls, slap out rolls, hardfalls etc etc.

Jordan Steele
08-13-2004, 08:17 PM
In Aikido, I'm more than certain all instructors teach ukemi. Of course there might be variations on how to take ukemi or what level of ukemi is applied, but breakfalls etc are common practice, there is nothing special about them. I may have misunderstood your post but backwards falling, rolls, breakfalls, etc are practiced extensively in all dojos.

MaryKaye
08-14-2004, 01:12 AM
Some dojo emphasize learning how to roll out of throws if at all possible and don't teach breakfalling until a pretty high level. I'm ambivalent about this myself, but it's what my school does so I'm trying to work with it. It has to be combined with a responsibility on nage's part not to force uke into a breakfall.

We spend a lot of time working on rolls, though. I have the impression that many dojo are satisfied with forward rolls when the student can do them safely, but my teachers hold out for round, quiet, and in a straight line as well. (My current challenge is, "When you can run across the dojo and do a round, quiet, straight, and unflinching forward roll, then I'll consider teaching you breakfalls." I have quite a way to go on this, I fear.)

Ki Society doesn't tend to give uke any more energy in his fall than the energy contributed by his attack, so it's easier to avoid forced breakfalls than it would be in a "harder" style. But I've failed to avoid a couple, fortunately with no bad results.

Mary Kaye

maikerus
08-14-2004, 01:36 AM
I've always thought that Aikido doesn't get really, REALLY interesting until you can breakfall fairly well. There's nothing quite as fun as getting slammed really hard by one of the top instructors and traveling 3 or 4 meters in the blink of an eye and being able to get up after that. Usually with a huge grin and a "do that again" feeling painted all over your kamae.

It's also a relief to trust in your partner enough to know that they can do a breakfall from whatever you can throw at them...and vice versa.

We teach many breakfalls in our dojo from day one. We usually don't start teaching flips until after the first or second test, but that, too, depends on what's being taught during the class and whether the student wants to give it a shot or not. Like everything else in Yoshinkan, there are very strict standards in the various breakfalls that we teach as "basic" especially in the beginning stages.

Another point is that I feel that you probably learn more as the person receiving the technique than you do actually practicing the throws. So, if you can breakfall without worrying about it and "feel" where you are being moved without resisting that direction then you can probably get more out of the whole experience. After all, since it takes 2 people to make a single technique, there's not much good at only being taught half of the technique.

cheers,

--Michael

xuzen
08-14-2004, 02:17 AM
Just curious how many instructors out there train their students in Breakfalling. Does your dojo train in breakfalling?

I mean left, right, backward, forward, rolls, slap out rolls, hardfalls etc etc.

Huh? Breakfall or ukemi is part and parcel of learning aikido. My interpretation of your question is does any dojo train specifically for ukemi? It just seem odd, without the knowledge of ukemi, many aikido techniques cannot be executed, therefore before any student learn any technique he/she must have some working knowledge of ukemi first.

Hence, IMO the question of should instructor train students in ukemi should not exist. It should be rephrased as: "All instructors MUST train students in ukemi waza."

:confused:

Cheers,
Boon

kironin
08-14-2004, 06:23 PM
If the style you practice does a lot techniques in such a way that breakfall ukemi is required in basic waza, then like Judo, not a bad idea to start breakfalls from day one. If your style emphasizes doing basic techniques so rolling ukemi is most appropriate then it's good to really work on rolls, all kinds, learn to control and direct. Actually at least in Ki Society, it's seen as a continuum where there is no difference between our rolls and breakfalls. Just a shift in timing and rotation in response to nage's actions. So rolling practice is seen as an intro to our method of breakfalling. That said, I do tend to introduce some breakfall exercises in warmups and basic classes that students can do before they are actually taught to breakfall after learning good rolling mechanics. But frankly, they simply don't need to learn to breakfall right away since the only techniques where we do technique with breakfall being the only option are when weapons are involved.

of course ukemi is not just about how to fall.

L. Camejo
08-15-2004, 01:22 AM
In our dojo, the very first thing you learn are the basic breakfalls, especially ushiro ukemi, yoko ukemi and zenpou kaiten ukemi. For us it's a safety factor that also forms part of the raw basics of learning Aikido (like tai sabaki drills and reaction/timing drills).

If you can't protect yourself while falling it can negatively affect the practice of both persons involved in kata practice. At the level of randori (which starts very soon after a few beginner classes), not knowing Ukemi is asking for an injury, maybe a serious one. So, safety first, this is why we teach ukemi first.

LC:ai::ki:

Devon Natario
08-22-2004, 03:59 AM
Thanks for all the replies. The only reason I ask is because in my new place of study, we only practice on forward and backward rolls. A lot of us have past experience in arts that have done extensive Ukemiwaza, however, some of the less experienced people have no clue how to land and they always seem to be so afraid of techniques like Ogoshinage, Koshinage, Shihonage, etc. So I was just curious to see what other dojos are doing.

I also noticed that a lot of people on these forums ask or comment about breakfalling so I was basically bringing up the question to maybe stir, like Xu stated, "All instructors must train their students in Ukemiwaza."

Thanks again for the replies.

Creature_of_the_id
08-22-2004, 06:53 AM
There are some places that have classes devoted to ukemi.
I dont think it only involved rolling around, but the entire process of recieving technique. before, after and during the attack/technique.

Hopefully Jun will stick his head in and explain, because if I remember right either he teaches an ukemi class himself or is involved in one.

toranaga
08-22-2004, 01:22 PM
This remember me the last dojo I trained and the actual...

On the first, there were no yoko ukemis. Back, front, "side", no yoko. Just mae and ushiro, kaiten or hanten.
Now, and when I changed I got a lot of trouble with this, there is ushiro otoshi, all yoko's and other ukemis. Quite strange this difference :o

Don_Modesto
08-22-2004, 01:38 PM
On the first, there were no yoko ukemis. Back, front, "side", no yoko.

What's the difference between side and YOKO?

Thanks.

NagaBaba
08-22-2004, 10:42 PM
Teaching ukemi may have some positive aspects, but has also many negative.

Most catastrophic consequence is that the students develop a sens of "safe practice". every one goes to work next day, has to support family, so practice is easy going.We start to "pretending" efficiency of technique.
No more practice "on the edge".So martial spirit is lost. This is quite contrary to Founder teaching, he said that every technique must be executed as the last technique in our life. He also asked his students to attack him any moment day or night. His students could never foresee what will happened after attack, what kind of technique Founder will execute. Automatic response (and teaching ukemi is teachin automatic response of the body) wasn't possible. So teaching ukemi was a nonsens.

Other negatif consequence is inability of student to practice with his fellow students from other style. I.e. If aikikai student goes to yoshinkai or tomiki, he is lost. He is not able to spontanously develop a reaction to receive a technique. This is particularly true in the styles where very special type of uke mi is required(i.e.Ch.Tisser's style).

There are of course many other negative things, but only with these two, no martial spirit and no spontanous response, the way to takemusu aikido is closed.

L. Camejo
08-22-2004, 11:53 PM
Other negatif consequence is inability of student to practice with his fellow students from other style. I.e. If aikikai student goes to yoshinkai or tomiki, he is lost. He is not able to spontanously develop a reaction to receive a technique. This is particularly true in the styles where very special type of uke mi is required(i.e.Ch.Tisser's style).

There are of course many other negative things, but only with these two, no martial spirit and no spontanous response, the way to takemusu aikido is closed.

Personally, I cannot agree with this and have never seen this phenomenon while training in dojos of other styles or when they train at our dojo.

Ukemi is first and foremost the practical ability to safely take a fall, at least in our understanding. This means that even if Ueshiba M. himself were throwing you, you should be able to handle it as long as you have developed your skills to that level.

Ukemi is spontaneous reaction imo. During randori practice at all levels, (and also during demos) techniques are done at full force and speed and just above the level of the students and challenges the receiver to empty the mind and instinctively place himself in a safe position to fall without any time to think about how it's done, but by responding to the movement and energy of technique.

So imnsho, as long as one has thoroughly grasped the principles of falling safely, regardless of the direction or angle thrown, it does not matter who you are training with, how martially they are training or what style they come from, you instinctively react with the reprogrammed survival instinct that places you in the position that allows you to be thrown at full force and get up and attack again afterwards. Most of our students have fared equally well in their ukemi skills when training in Aikido, Judo and Jujutsu, so I think sound ukemi skills follow certain principles regardless of martial art or style being studied.

The only problem comes when some instructors think that (like kata technique) their way of doing ukemi is the only correct way. This I have experienced at one dojo. Sad thing though.

Similar to the concept of studying techniques constantly under resistance, receiving technique at speed and force without first understanding sound ukemi principles is a formula for getting badly injured and learning nothing imo.

Just my 2 cents.
LC:ai::ki:

Devon Natario
08-23-2004, 12:18 AM
I dont think Ukemi causes anything negative either. I understand that you think it creates unnatural reactions to a technique, but so does taking a technique.

Koto gaeshi for instance. If you get thrown numerous times in the same fashion, you start to either want to reverse it everytime, or go down before the technique has actually cause severe pain.

Anyways- I think Id rather learn how to fall correctly, then to get hurt because someone wanted to try Koshi nage on me and I wasnt prepared to land.

maikerus
08-23-2004, 02:43 AM
Teaching ukemi may have some positive aspects, but has also many negative.


I would say that the positive aspects of teaching ukemi far outweigh the negative aspects.

Being able to get up after being slammed into the mat is a really good thing. If you go 100% (even 30%) with people who do not know how to move they will be injured. There is no question about this. Unless we decide to go back to using convicts to practice our skills on, its probably a good idea to teach how to receive the technique so we can keep practicing together (in harmony, even).

A technique requires two people and my understanding is that every movement throughout the technique is done as a result of the previous movement being countered in some way by uke. This is done together until there is no more place for uke to go...and splat! However, if you don't teach someone to block that very first atemi, then you are never going to learn to do whatever comes after that atemi.

And as for using Aikido ukemi practically in life...

I have a friend who was riding his bicycle along the street when a car door suddenly opened in front of him; he did a forward breakfall over the door, got up, dusted himself off, told the person who opened the door to be more careful and after straightening the bicycle wheel, he peddled on.

Just a few thoughts,

--Michael

-

aikido_luver
08-23-2004, 06:21 PM
Just curious how many instructors out there train their students in Breakfalling. Does your dojo train in breakfalling?
I mean left, right, backward, forward, rolls, slap out rolls, hardfalls etc etc.

Hi
I know what you mean.
Mae and Ushiro and breakfall ukemi are compulsary you cant get anywhere in Aikido with out it! :D , but the other ones like left, right and the ones where u are facing one way and instead of doing ushiro, you half turn without moving your feet much and do a funny backward/forward roll? i hope thats what you mean. One of my senseis does this in one of his classes every now and then. It is very different from normal ukemi and can be very difficult!!!
I hope this answers you question.
Ayla

John Ashton
08-23-2004, 07:02 PM
hi guys
i actually teach a 2 hour ukemi class and firmly believe that learning ukemi is a very important part of aikido. in my dojo my sensei never tells what he is going to do before he does it the only thing he tells you is what attack he wants. by him doing this it helps you build a sensitivity that helps you respond to the moment and never anticipate whats comeing. this is also great training for timing and reflexes. i guess its a bit wierd but at the stage i am at in aikido i enjoy taking ukemi more than doing the tecnique.
have fun train hard
JA

NagaBaba
08-23-2004, 10:13 PM
Ukemi is first and foremost the practical ability to safely take a fall, at least in our understanding. This means that even if Ueshiba M. himself were throwing you, you should be able to handle it as long as you have developed your skills to that level.

Interesting thing is, that either before II WW either after, there were no special teaching of ukemi in Founder's dojo. That means, all students learned how to fall by themself, simply during reception of the techniques..

Ukemi is spontaneous reaction imo.
LC:ai::ki:
No, if ukemi would be spontaneous reaction there will be no need to teach special classes of ukemi :P
Ukemi is learned reaction, and is not generic. So in fact, ukemi drill(i.e. exercises for rolling foreward or backward....) distroy natural sensivity of the body, and prevent student to progress to higher level of aikido secrets :)

akiy
08-23-2004, 10:57 PM
Interesting thing is, that either before II WW either after, there were no special teaching of ukemi in Founder's dojo. That means, all students learned how to fall by themself, simply during reception of the techniques..
Likewise, though, the founder did not teach nagewaza in a systematic manner but taught through a few demonstrations and that was it. Does that mean we should stop teaching the nage portion of aikido systematically?
So in fact, ukemi drill(i.e. exercises for rolling foreward or backward....) distroy natural sensivity of the body, and prevent student to progress to higher level of aikido secrets :)
Would you say the same sort of thing about kihonwaza for nage?

-- Jun

Devon Natario
08-23-2004, 11:19 PM
If you do a throw or technique on someone over and over, they are going to change the way they react. To even assume that someone is going to act naturally after being hurt once is ludicrous. If you smack me in my face without warning, you can bet Im not going to let that happen again. It's only natural for a person to react when they are taking a technique over and over.

So your theory of having natural body reactions would mean youd need new ignorant students that knew nothing about the arts everytime you performed a technique in order to learn these so called secrets of Aikido.

p00kiethebear
08-23-2004, 11:46 PM
while i was at the new york aikikai summer camp, i saw people who were taking backwards breakfalls out of shihonage. Normally when i take a break fall from that, I turn towards it and make it into a forward one, But these guys were flipping backwards over the nage's shoulders. I've never seen anyone do that before.

But i have to agree with the first reply in that all dojo's teach ukemi and basic breakfalling.

Chuck Clark
08-24-2004, 01:04 AM
I have heard many students of aikido over the years say that they had experienced NO organized, specific instructions in ukemi. Many old-time aikidoka were also trained in Kodokan judo and had ukemi training there. The aikido students I spoke about above said that their instruction usually amounted to, "take this fall like that guy over there just did."

Too bad, because the lack of appropriate and relaxed skillful ukemi has hurt many people's practice.

akiy
08-24-2004, 11:02 AM
If you do a throw or technique on someone over and over, they are going to change the way they react. To even assume that someone is going to act naturally after being hurt once is ludicrous. If you smack me in my face without warning, you can bet Im not going to let that happen again. It's only natural for a person to react when they are taking a technique over and over.
There's also an unfortunate, viscious cycle that some people fall into, especially when first learning breakfalls. If they do not receive proper attention in learning how to take breakfalls, some folks get hurt. Because they get hurt, they are now afraid of what might happen when they do another breakfall. Because they're now afraid, they tense up in anticipation of getting hurt when they do a breakfall. Since they tense up, they increase the possibility of getting hurt. And, often times, they get hurt again doing breakfalls, and the cycle continues.

I've seen this cycle happen mostly when people learn how to breakfall, but I've also seen it in many other kinds of rolling/falling, too. Breaking out of this cycle, especially for those who have been in it for a while, requires a slow "re-acclimitization" of proper, basic ukemi techniques.

Sure, there are some folks who are able to literally jump right into breakfalls and other kinds of rolls/falls without any problem. However, there are also many folks whom I've encountered who, due to their not having had a good foundation in how to roll and fall, have developed bad patterns and habits in their rolling/falling. I personally think it's avoidable for the most part.

Lastly, my thoughts on ukemi is that the rolling and falling part is just a small part of the big picture of what "ukemi" is all about. It's a big topic -- as big as the "nagewaza" portion of aikido, in my opinion.

Too bad, because the lack of appropriate and relaxed skillful ukemi has hurt many people's practice.
Amen!

Looking forward to training with you, Chuck, in just a few short days!

-- Jun

Chuck Clark
08-24-2004, 12:20 PM
Hi Jun,

Aaron and I are also looking forward to the weekend and the chance to train and share good times with everyone that's there.

Later,

L. Camejo
08-24-2004, 02:07 PM
Interesting thing is, that either before II WW either after, there were no special teaching of ukemi in Founder's dojo. That means, all students learned how to fall by themself, simply during reception of the techniques..

Happily, Jun answered this in his post.

Ukemi is learned reaction, and is not generic. So in fact, ukemi drill(i.e. exercises for rolling foreward or backward....) distroy natural sensivity of the body, and prevent student to progress to higher level of aikido secrets :)

Exactly what I said. Apparently you did not read my initial post properly. Ukemi is learned reaction - this is what I said:-

you instinctively react with the reprogrammed survival instinct that places you in the position that allows you to be thrown at full force and get up and attack again afterwards.

In fact, the body's natural reaction to a fall is to flail outward with all limbs in an attempt to regain balance or brace (tense up) and protect the brain and major organs from damage at the sacrifice of the extremities if necessary (i.e broken limbs and joints). In fact, this is what happens when people don't learn Ukemi properly from the first day of training. I wonder how many records there are of folks who trained in koryu jujutsu without learning ukemi and got broken limbs etc. Of course chances are we will never know. Because something is old does not always make it immediately correct.

As Jun indicated, if we applied this "keeping the traditional way" concept blindly to other aspects of training, then it would take an extremely long time to become mediocre at Aikido technique, when those employing more systematic approaches to learning will have evolved way beyond what we could ever hope to achieve. So any "higher level of Aikido secrets" as you put it would also be unattainable, since there is no structure to your basic training, any hidden aspects will be shrouded in mystery until your training has developed to an extremely high degree over a ridiculously long period of time. Without a solid foundation there is no reaching the heights of knowledge. Similarly in Shu Ha Ri, one must achieve form before one can ever hope to break and then free himself from it by spontaneously manifesting his movements. Imo Ukemi training follows the same pattern.

Just my 9 cents.
LC:ai::ki:

Ron Tisdale
08-24-2004, 03:14 PM
At least at the Doshinkan Yoshinkan dojo, its built into the test syllibus. There are specific ukemi for each kyu test, and the ukemi for techniques in each kyu are taught to match the desired skill in the solo ukemi. You actually have to perform the solo ukemi (typically 10 of each) on the test. I found that this method worked very well for me at least. I seem to do better with the information and skills systematized...but that's probably just my weakness.

The actual skills are reviewed in each class (we do ukemi after warmups), and are also taught during test technique classes (specifically for kyu and dan test preparation). I'd say about 2 weeks out of every 2 months is spent strictly on test preparation.

Ron

Devon Natario
08-24-2004, 06:01 PM
Jun: I totally agree

Larry I totally agree

You both have great points. Thanks.

maikerus
08-24-2004, 07:22 PM
At least at the Doshinkan Yoshinkan dojo, its built into the test syllibus. There are specific ukemi for each kyu test, and the ukemi for techniques in each kyu are taught to match the desired skill in the solo ukemi.



We do something very similar to this as well. The Ukemi and Kihon Dosa parts of tests are the same for all tests, except that we add more ukemi as the rank increases. Kihon Dosa remains the same, except you have to get better at it <g>

cheers,

--Michael

NagaBaba
08-26-2004, 09:35 PM
Likewise, though, the founder did not teach nagewaza in a systematic manner but taught through a few demonstrations and that was it. Does that mean we should stop teaching the nage portion of aikido systematically?
I though about it, and I beleive that ppl being taught in systematic manner are doing very quick progress in the first few years. But in certain moment they hit a wall.This wall is in their mind. 99.99% of them will never destroy this wall(And even some of them will do, I wonder how much time and efford it takes). They will be very good techniciens, but that's all.
Ppl taught in no-systematic manner progressing much slower, but this wall is not created.

Would you say the same sort of thing about kihonwaza for nage?

-- Jun
kihonwaza for nage was created as a teaching tool to teach large groups ppl, or to establish some standards in an organisation. I don't think it is a right way to learn spontanouse applications.

NagaBaba
08-26-2004, 09:44 PM
I have heard many students of aikido over the years say that they had experienced NO organized, specific instructions in ukemi. Many old-time aikidoka were also trained in Kodokan judo and had ukemi training there. The aikido students I spoke about above said that their instruction usually amounted to, "take this fall like that guy over there just did."

Too bad, because the lack of appropriate and relaxed skillful ukemi has hurt many people's practice.

If we are talking here about high level of practice, there were very often some students taking ukemi for other shihan then their own, and becauce of their "skillful ukemi" got baldy hurt. They simply assumed that their ukemi is appropriate, cos thei did receive last 30 years techniques from their instructor this way and were safe.
Instead of "listening" uke, they simply turned on automatic movements.

As far as I know there is no drill to teach "listening" tori. One must simply practice. So teaching any particular form of ukemi looks like useless ;) :P

ps. oh, teaching ukemi means teaching "Dead Mouvement" LOL!

NagaBaba
08-26-2004, 09:59 PM
I wonder how many records there are of folks who trained in koryu jujutsu without learning ukemi and got broken limbs etc. Of course chances are we will never know. Because something is old does not always make it immediately correct.
But they never, never lost martial spirit and could survive on real battlefield.

Can we?

They knew they practice very dangerouse techniques and kept it in mind constantly.
Safe practice as we do it today conduct straight to watered down version of healthy gimnastic.

So any "higher level of Aikido secrets" as you put it would also be unattainable, since there is no structure to your basic training, any hidden aspects will be shrouded in mystery until your training has developed to an extremely high degree over a ridiculously long period of time.
Instead, you develop very well empaty and intuition. This two skill are much more important then strong nikkyo or koshinage. They will save your ass in real trouble when you face life and dead.
Why? Cos structured training develops skills that work only inside of your system. Once your are out of your dojo-cocoon, you are helpless.

L. Camejo
08-26-2004, 10:44 PM
But they never, never lost martial spirit and could survive on real battlefield.

Can we?

They knew they practice very dangerouse techniques and kept it in mind constantly.
Safe practice as we do it today conduct straight to watered down version of healthy gimnastic.

Lol - is this guy for real? :rolleyes:
Newsflash: The War is Over - you can switch off your DVD of "The Last Samurai" now. :crazy: That was a movie, not real life.:) In these times we fight with smart weapons and stealth aircraft - none of the fighters in the movie would have survived on a modern battlefield, so I don't see the point in asking if we could survive on their battlefield either.:)

Someone's ability to safely receive a dangerous technique (read: not end up dead or maimed) through Ukemi has not so much to do with "martial spirit" as you so romantically put it, but oftentimes survival. Apparently you have never experienced atemi waza (throws) that threaten to knock you out if you try to stiffen and resist (natural reaction) or a wrist twist that will snap your wrist if you had no (now instinctive) pre-programmed reactions on how to fall flowing with the movement. This shows an apparent lack of experience which may make things difficult for you to understand. I can understand that. So may I suggest that you travel more and really experience "Aikido" in its many manifestations, preferably at dojos outside your little comfort zone before you make sweeping statements. It's good to remember to never assume anything when you hear the words "Aikido is...." because you will only be seeing one small part of a very large and diverse concept that is open to interpretation.

Instead, you develop very well empaty and intuition. This two skill are much more important then strong nikkyo or koshinage. They will save your ass in real trouble when you face life and dead.
Why? Cos structured training develops skills that work only inside of your system. Once your are out of your dojo-cocoon, you are helpless.

Lol. :crazy: In this country we have a saying - "The proof of the pudding is in the eating." So far the structured training system I follow has saved my hind quarters as you so eloquently put it on more than one occasions, sometimes with multiple aggressors seeking to really ruin my day.:)

As I indicated earlier about Sh Ha Ri - if one trains in structure it does not mean that one's mind is imprisoned in the structure. It is a guide, which when one's understanding has attained a certain level becomes decreasingly rigid and allows for more expression as concepts become action. Structure sets a solid platform for intuitive practice.

I'll tell you one thing, and this is not to take anything away from folks who train in certain ways, cuz I believe there are many ways up the mountain, but to date I have yet to see one of your "spontaneous, intuitive training" yudansha last more than 5 seconds in a controlled form of the serious, spontaneous attack practice that we regularly use to develop instinctive responses. This is of course only if they don't suddenly have an injury (or other excuse) that causes them to sit out that part of the practice. Maybe it is they who have the block that they cannot surpass.:)

The proof of the pudding is in the eating - where is the proof, or at least an example of what you are claiming?

LC:ai::ki:

xuzen
08-26-2004, 11:36 PM
Well said, Larry. In a similar analogy, let's ask a child to compose a simple song when he/she hasn't even learn the Do-Re-Mi as yet. Unless it is a child prodigy, I seriously doubt it is going to happen. Similarly, if there is no need to teach ukemi, then your dojo will probably have a lot of broken limbs here and there. If it hasn't happen, then maybe the dojo teaches some really watered down martial art, meant for babies and grand and gramps. I believe that until the uke can take the ukemi, we can't show them the more robust technique.

Nagababa's argument that structured teaching will make a student hit a mental wall has a flaw; he underestimate the complexity of the human brain. Pls give our god-given brain some due credit. We, the homo sapiens are smarter, and better at learning and formulating solutions to problems than the great apes unless you mean that those who hit the mental wall are apes (pun intended).

Boon.

NagaBaba
08-27-2004, 01:24 PM
Lol - is this guy for real? :rolleyes:

Apparently you have never experienced atemi waza (throws) ......

This shows an apparent lack of experience ......

So may I suggest that you travel more and really experience "Aikido" in its many manifestations, preferably at dojos outside your little comfort zone before you make sweeping statements. :
Don't try cheap shots, you are not smart enough to attack me personally.

If you have nothing to say about subject of discussion, simply shut up.

L. Camejo
08-28-2004, 04:38 AM
It's not a cheap shot. I am merely trying to communicate at your level of your comprehension, since it's obvious you were unable to address my initial question. :)

My question was: - Where is the proof to back up your argument?

Some have stated examples that show how, having learnt Ukemi in a structured manner, it has served them well in many situations where spontaneous reactions were required inside and outside the dojo. This has been my experience as well on slippery surfaces.:)

If you have proof that some other sort of training works better, then please enlighten us with that evidence, not claims of grandeur and airy fairy generalisations that can be interpreted in infinite ways.

You claim: Structured training causes a loss in martial spirit. - Where is your proof? What is your definition of "martial spirit?" Have you ever experienced "structured training" to make such judgments? So far you are all alone screaming into the void as you have given nothing to support your own argument that may be objectively evaluated by anyone else. Has it ever occurred to you that you may have built a house upon a foundation that does not really exist?

Others who have experienced structured practice have given examples of its benefits. Where are yours?

A concept worth sharing to the public is a concept worth challenging. If what you say is true, give us some evidence. You may be onto something, but you have yet to prove your point. It's like technique - if it is sound it does not fall apart under a little resistance.;)

Peace.
LC:ai::ki:

Devon Natario
08-28-2004, 06:28 PM
I see your point Larry. No offense Szczepan Janczuk, I just think of it in terms of the name as well.

"Do" -vs- "Jutsu"

There's a reason they changed the names. When the war was over and there was really no need for "Martial Arts" they changed it to "do" making it a "way of life".

Although, we can still use Aikido for "self defense", we must realize applications have changed from the days of war to now.

NagaBaba
08-28-2004, 09:26 PM
My question was: - Where is the proof to back up your argument?

ALL Founder's students, present shihans, all of them, had non systematic, structured training.
Noone from present aikido students, those who experienced super modern structured training, can't even dream to equal, not talking about surpass the shihans.

L. Camejo
08-28-2004, 10:28 PM
ALL Founder's students, present shihans, all of them, had non systematic, structured training.

So what you are saying is that almost ALL of Ueshiba M.'s high ranking students, including his son, have abandoned the way they were taught Ukemi in how they now teach. Cuz the last time I spoke to students of many of these "Shihans" they were being taught Ukemi in a pretty structured manner by these same students of Ueshiba M., learning it in some of their earliest classes. In fact this has been my personal experience as well when training at Aikikai dojos being conducted by students of these Shihans. Beginners learn Ukemi as a separate thing (in a separate area of the mat) from a senior grade before starting to rumble with the rest of the folks.

On another note, many of Ueshiba M.'s students were high ranking Judoka, who had already learnt Ukemi in Judo training. And from my experiences in Judo, Ukemi is taught (like everything else) in a very systematic way. Kano was a systematic kinda guy.:)

So I guess you have just proven my point. Thank you.:)

Structured training does provide one with the ability to receive technique instinctively and spontaneously, since very many of Ueshiba M.'s students were in fact Judoka who had already been trained in Ukemi in a systematic manner before ever starting Aikido.

Noone from present aikido students, those who experienced super modern structured training, can't even dream to equal, not talking about surpass the shihans.

Surpass which Shihans? In what? Ukemi? I did not know that there were Ukemi competitions in Aikido. I guess Competitive Aikido is not so rare after all.:p

BTW, I recently trained under an Aikido Shihan (8th Dan) - he learnt his Aikido and teaches it (all of it) in a very simple, structured manner. In fact it is part of what makes his teaching system and his techniques so effective. Structure makes it easy to focus on elements of one's training that needs improvement, instead of taking shots in the dark imho.

Just my few cents. Thanks again for proving my point.

Gambatte.
LC:ai::ki:

david evans
09-03-2004, 06:00 PM
Devon,

My experience has been that ukemi is the starting point.

Instructors that I have had will not let beginners attempt techniques as uke unless they are confident that they can fall properly.

I just assumed ukemi (in its many forms and in varying degrees) was part and parcel of all aikido training.

David.