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p00kiethebear
08-10-2004, 04:22 PM
Recently while at the New York Aikikai's 40th aniversery summer camp, me and many other people got to watch a presentation about a new software package known as "aikido3D"

The software basicly acts as a database of techniques. You can search the database by the attack type, technique type, or testing requirements (USAF / Aikikai)

Once you've selected the technique and attack. You can watch a 3D nage and uke perform it. You can speed up, slow down, rotate and pan around, and even pause the video.

If you watch it in slow motion you can add a commentary that describes what's happening in the demonstration.

You can check out their website at http://www.aikido3d.com

There is not alot of information there. I kinda wish they would put up a video of what we got to see at the demonstration.

Anyway. Thought I should just bring this to the attention of the community.

Troy
08-11-2004, 12:40 PM
I will defiantly be checking this out when it comes out!

Gareth Hinds
08-11-2004, 12:43 PM
Huh. That's a rather large and demanding animation task. Or a long and technically difficult mocap session. I assume they will be using some more-or-less-generally-accepted "standard" aikido such as what doshu demonstrates?

Ron Tisdale
08-11-2004, 02:05 PM
Even if 'non-standard', it should be interesting. I do have to admit I'd like to see a yosh. varient though...kudos to them for the work involved. Have you emailed them about putting up a demo?

RT

Matt Lih
08-11-2004, 03:50 PM
Huh. That's a rather large and demanding animation task. Or a long and technically difficult mocap session. I assume they will be using some more-or-less-generally-accepted "standard" aikido such as what doshu demonstrates?

Maybe they use the same technique that's been used for NFL broadcasts. Multiple cameras record the action from several angles and the computers figure out how to generate the correct image for a given point of view. No animation or motion sensors needed.

Matt

otto
08-11-2004, 04:09 PM
From the description , it definitively had to be based on a 3D engine of some kind (because of the choice to rotate , zoom and pan) so i guess they must be using a motion capture system to produce the skeletals animations.

That would provide some interesting options like isolating certain movements , or maybe pick from a choice of actors the ones you want to see performing the techs? :)

I would love to see some weapons katas on this software too , a lots of nice things could be achieved certainly , good luck for those people.

Sadly the page doesnt host a lot of info , some videos and a demo as Ron suggested would be nice!


Yours respectfully

Otto

Robert Jackson
08-11-2004, 07:42 PM
hmmm. The actual quality of the graphics is going to make for an interesting case study. I hope it works out. I think it has great potential...

p00kiethebear
08-11-2004, 09:16 PM
Huh. That's a rather large and demanding animation task. Or a long and technically difficult mocap session. I assume they will be using some more-or-less-generally-accepted "standard" aikido such as what doshu demonstrates?

To answer some of these questions.

I got to talk with the head of the project.

The animation was first done with a few weeks of motion capture. However some of the more complicated animation (fingers for example) were done frame by frame.

The animation package used was Maya (4.5 ?)
The animation was then exprted into a format read by an engine that was built in shockwave 3d.

From what the guy said, all you would need to run it is an 8 meg open GL video card, so it should be available to the majority of the computer community.

I asked him what the price range is and he said anywhere from 40 - 50$. (about the price of a video game when first released)

I also brought up the idea of having other arts in it. He said they were thinking about releasing an expansion that also had sword kata.

shaig
10-28-2004, 01:18 PM
Hi Guys,

My name is Shai Golan, and I am the creator of Aikido3D.

I am glad you guys are interested and happy to tell you we will be putting up a new web site very soon. The new site will have lots of information about Aikido3D, screen shots etc.

Aikido3D will soon be available for purchase as well.

Feel free to email me at info@aikido3d.com with any questions.

Shai

akiy
02-25-2005, 02:08 PM
Looks interesting:

"Aikido3D is a unique, interactive 3D Aikido training aid, designed to offer innovative ways to explore Aikido techniques and form."

http://www.aikido3d.com/

-- Jun

p00kiethebear
02-25-2005, 03:10 PM
Geeze Jun

Whatever happened to looking up old threads (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6214&highlight=aikido3d) before posting new ones. :D :p

Hrvoje
02-25-2005, 03:47 PM
Tsk, in my day we had to go to the dojo and learn from our Sensei :D You youngins and your fancy virtual shiho nages ar eno match for true ki and dedicated study in an actual environment! :p

jimbaker
02-25-2005, 04:31 PM
I saw it at the USAF-East summer camp. They had Donovan Waite Shihan and, I think, one of the NY Aikikai deshi put on motion capture suits. They performed the techniques and the suits allowed their motions to be inputed into 3D software.

The resulting virtual uke moves like Donovan. The style is fairly standard Aikikai.

The software allows you to speed up, slow down, zoom in and view from any angle the basic techniques of Aikido. It's supposed to be a sort of textbook to supplement, not replace, training in the dojo.

The optional spiral attached to the virtual nage's center is a bit dorky.

The virtual Donovan has a removable hakama, so you can see the footwork. At the premiere, it was suggested, by someone who will remain nameless and who is not necessarily me, that the authors might be able to make more money if the hakama removal option was expanded to other items of clothing.

Jim Baker
Aikido of Norfolk

akiy
02-25-2005, 04:36 PM
There's also this:

http://www.adaptiveperception.com/

-- Jun

PS: I'd pay extra for an option to allow a selectable palette of different kinds of clothing for nage/uke...

Brehan Crawford
02-25-2005, 05:10 PM
PS: I'd pay extra for an option to allow a selectable palette of different kinds of clothing for nage/uke...

that's a fantastic idea. I've been wondering how I'd do shihonage wearing a top-hat or sombrero. :D

Lan Powers
02-25-2005, 06:43 PM
I am sure it will be cool when it EVER actually is available.
Lan

shaig
03-12-2005, 12:47 PM
Hey guys,

Indeed it took us a little longer than expected to finish Aikido3D
but we wanted to support Mac users as well, etc...

Anyway, we are in Early Beta and should release soon. (no Sombreros though :-) )

Thanks for your continuing interest!

Shai Golan
Aikido3D Team

SMART2o
06-24-2005, 04:06 PM
Hey all,

I found a nice little training aid. Check out www.Aikido3d.com. It uses motion capture technology so that you can watch a technique as slow or fast as you would like. You also get to modify the angles you see it from. Very useful for kyu ranks because you can view all the 5th thru 1st kyu requirements. It features the aikido of Donovan Waite Shihan. I feel it is worth a look, especially for those who may be taking a kyu test.

aikigirl10
06-26-2005, 02:01 PM
That sounds awesome , i will definitely check it out

bryce_montgomery
06-26-2005, 02:12 PM
Hey all,

I found a nice little training aid. Check out www.Aikido3d.com. It uses motion capture technology so that you can watch a technique as slow or fast as you would like. You also get to modify the angles you see it from. Very useful for kyu ranks because you can view all the 5th thru 1st kyu requirements. It features the aikido of Donovan Waite Shihan. I feel it is worth a look, especially for those who may be taking a kyu test.

Hey, I've heard something about this before....but I can't put my finger on it.... ;)

Bryce

darin
06-27-2005, 09:33 AM
I just checked out the site. The animation looks good. Maybe they should post the url on CGTalk. I have done a bit of 3D modelling and animation with LightWave and Maya and have always wanted to do something like this as a challenge.

stephenadams
07-15-2005, 03:11 AM
Hi,

I saw this site today, it has amazing 3D movies of Aikido, worth having a look. The address is:

http://www.aikido3d.com/

:)

intersimi
07-19-2005, 05:20 AM
Take a look at this website: www.aikido3d.com

It has a product on there much like an instructional DVD, but in 3D graphics. The website states that you can view the technique from any angle and zoom in etc.

My question is, is it any good? Things like finger placement for kotegaeshi etc could be an issue in my mind. I would like to know from someone who:

A. Owns the product
B. Does not work for the company/producres

giriasis
07-19-2005, 08:12 AM
Hopefully these links will help you:

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6214&highlight=Aikido3D

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8253&highlight=Aikido3D

The first link is more "review oriented" and the second is more about the use of motion capture.

There were some pretty good honest reviews on Aikido-L, but I don't know the links for those. I haven't bought it yet, but I'm sure I'll be please as I'm rather partial to Donovan Waite and the association he's a member of. I don't remember people mentioned exact hand placement as you can't control the exact angles you view the technique from.

intersimi
07-19-2005, 08:40 AM
Thanks Giriasis,

I will take a look at those posts (I should have searched). I did notice an article in the reviews section, but was just an advert really

roosvelt
09-29-2005, 11:57 AM
I'm going to take my 4th Kyu test next month. I got Aikido3D last night. After installation, I had to log on to their web site www.aikido3d.com to register to get the key. The registration was fast though.

After starting the program, you choose a technique, a computer modeled Donovan and a Uke will show the technique. You can view it from different angle, and slow down the action.

All the techniques are mainly from USAF 5th kyu to 1st kyu tests, no more or less. The style/variation that Donovan has is exactly what my instructor teach us. So I don't have to do any adjustment.

I'm satisfied with Aikido3D. I think it's very useful for a white belt to pass tests. A black belt may find it too basic.

Side notes:

1. Donovan is known for his "soft breakfall". Watching the uke, I think my breakfall that I learnt from my sensei is the soft style. I now wondering what is the "hard breakfall".

2. The Uke doesn't do any back roll. Where normally I do a bankroll (in Iriminage, for example), the Uke turns it into some type of front roll.


Need Improvement:

1. A real video clip in the program would be nice. So I can connect the computer model with real person.

2. No reset button. After slow down the action, I want to watch it in a real life speed. There isn't a way to do it.

3. Since this program seems to target the white belts, it should include the 6th kyu requirements as well, like Ukemi, Shikko, different locks and pins .

I think the program is well worth the price of $60, less than 2 month dojo fee.

giriasis
09-29-2005, 12:06 PM
Thanks for the review. I train in the USAF-ER, too. I've been wanting to get it myself to check it out, but I just tested for 1st kyu so I've been wondering the usefulness to having it other than a good review of our basic techniques.

I just want to add, that you won't see any 6th testing requirements because the USAF-ER doesn't officially have a 6th kyu rank, although I believe some schools might have one on an unofficial basis. But it would be nice if they demonstrated basics things like shikko.

Michael Zartman
09-29-2005, 01:20 PM
I believe Aikido3D is very useful, even for those who are beyond Kyu testing. It is a revolutionary training tool, permitting views from the side, above, and behind. It allows for replay in varying speeds, from slow to fast, and with or without hakama (showing footwork). It may cover the USAF kyu testing requirments, but is incomplete as far as all fundamental techniques are concerned. Nevertheless, it contains substantial information.

O-Ren
10-08-2005, 01:53 PM
Hay all, I just stumbled on to a site and I was just wondering if any of U have ever seen and or have it, and wha ya think about it. Also, if you haven't U really should check it. :cool: http://www.aikido3d.com/

O-Ren

tenshinaikidoka
10-08-2005, 02:57 PM
I think, as purely a tool to assist in learning, I gues that is not a bad thing. But I hope it is not another "Learn and gain rank at home" system. My personal opinion.

giriasis
10-08-2005, 05:06 PM
I think, as purely a tool to assist in learning, I gues that is not a bad thing. But I hope it is not another "Learn and gain rank at home" system. My personal opinion.

Of course it's not a learn and gain rank at home system. This is put out by Donovaite Waite of the United States Aikido Federation. They do NOT support such concept. You get your rank the good old fashioned way by going to the dojo and training.

tenshinaikidoka
10-08-2005, 05:29 PM
Well, pardon me for being ignorant, but I have seen high ranking Sensei in "Federations" give away rank for money. Wasn't trying to offend anyone, because I do not know who this person is. But I have seen an Aikido learn at home program where you get your videos sent to you along with your shodan certificate. So I beleive I was being genuin with my concern and reply. Again, it was not meant to be a reflection on any individual. If it was taken as such, well, then sorry!!!

giriasis
10-08-2005, 09:26 PM
Well, pardon me for being ignorant, but I have seen high ranking Sensei in "Federations" give away rank for money. Wasn't trying to offend anyone, because I do not know who this person is. But I have seen an Aikido learn at home program where you get your videos sent to you along with your shodan certificate. So I beleive I was being genuin with my concern and reply. Again, it was not meant to be a reflection on any individual. If it was taken as such, well, then sorry!!!

Well, there are frauds out their that do things like that and I would agree that such practices are misguided. However, yes, I think you really jumped the gun with this one. If you have done any reading here you'd know that USAF is one of the largest Aikido associations in the U.S. and my experience is that the great majority of the people are respectful human beings and would not think to "sell" ranks through videos. If you don't know who Donovan Waite is why not ask about him and his background instead of jumping to conclusions? You'd come to find out that he is respected across different orgainzations. And he isn't some rank selling fraud.

Aikido3D is merely a teaching aid for those students in our federation, who received instruction in person by qualified and certified instructors. Our testing requirements are also found in the Power and Basics video series by Yamada Sensei, those videos have been out for years. So our testing requirements being on video is nothing new. No one gets rank from just watching a video.

giriasis
10-08-2005, 09:31 PM
Hay all, I just stumbled on to a site and I was just wondering if any of U have ever seen and or have it, and wha ya think about it. Also, if you haven't U really should check it. :cool: http://www.aikido3d.com/

O-Ren


Todd, sorry to have side tracked your inquiry. Yes, I've heard of Aikido3D and have heard it is a great tool for helping you learn your techniques, especially if your school is part of the USAF-Eastern Region. These links should help answer some questions:

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6214&highlight=Aikido3D

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8253&highlight=Aikido3D

vjw
10-08-2005, 10:32 PM
I make a 180 mile round trip 1 day each week to do a 1 hour class with a USAF instructor. Videos or software programs could not replace this class but they are still very useful tools, especially for someone like myself running a new club 90 miles from any established traditional Aikido club. I have Aikido3d and think it’s great. You can watch the technique from any angle, even from above, and at any speed. Not a jerky frame by frame for slow motion but a nice smooth slow reply. You can pause the picture, change the angle of view then use the mouse to go backwards and forwards over a fraction of the technique (great for checking footwork or change of hand grip). It’s particularly valuable for anyone studying the USAF (East) test syllabus for 5th to 1st kyu. I’m looking forward to seeing how the software develops. I would love to be able to analyze other instructor’s movement using this tool.

ronin_10562
10-09-2005, 04:53 AM
It's great! That is the best way to watch and understand techniques when not in class. This can only enhance your training. I'm ordering mine today.

ajbarron
10-09-2005, 10:24 AM
This is a great adjunct to the videos that Yamada Sensei put out a few years ago with Donovan Waite as Uke. The techniques are similar to our dojo's test syllabus with some variations in execution. This fact does not diminish from the ability of a student of Aikido to use this product as an excellent resource. I can without hesitation recommend this DVD to any serious student of Aikido.

I have my mail order Shodan and am now working on my real one !!!!! 6 years down and months to go!!!

Cheers and soft landings

darin
10-09-2005, 03:24 PM
looks interesting

markwalsh
10-10-2005, 07:54 AM
I think it's very cool.

Of most interest to me was the fact that the images recorded are of what Waite Sensei and his uke actually did. There are plenty of things that might be excluded from books as mistakes, that are interesting in themselves. Also you can clearly see subtle movements just before contact that are near impossible to study normally.

What I need now is a suit that replicates the movements exactly - conditioning my body to perform them :) Joking aside, this would be possible if anyone wants to invest a few million?

craig chapman
11-11-2005, 06:24 AM
Hi Guys

Whilst browsing the net I came across, probably one of the most interesting tools for Aikido training Ive ever seen.
Its definitly worth a look and I'll definitly be buying it...once I can afford it, lol
Its called 'Aikido3D' and Ive included the link below.

Take care of each other

Craig Chapman

PS, before anyones mentions, I do realise this is for a certain 'style' of Aikido.

http://www.aikido3d.com/aboutaikido.htm

John Boswell
11-11-2005, 09:29 AM
Hi Craig.

Thanks for the mention of this, but it has been brought up before. I'm curious though, if anyone has gotten it and what their thoughts of it are? How helpful has it been?

Looking for reviews... ;)

dj_swim
11-11-2005, 09:34 AM
What "style" of Aikido is this for? I noticed they mentioned techniques from 5th-1st Kyu... isn't there a 6th Kyu? What are you called before 6th?

I thought about getting this just so I could see the footwork and learn the names of the techniques, since those seem to be my biggest problems.

Thanks!

-Doug

akiy
11-11-2005, 09:46 AM
Thread merged with previous discussion on the Aikido3d product.

-- Jun

roosvelt
11-11-2005, 10:41 AM
What "style" of Aikido is this for? I noticed they mentioned techniques from 5th-1st Kyu... isn't there a 6th Kyu? What are you called before 6th?

I thought about getting this just so I could see the footwork and learn the names of the techniques, since those seem to be my biggest problems.

Thanks!

-Doug

The Aikido3D covers the following without the freestyle though.

I'd expect a higher level of ukemi because of Donovan's reputation. I wasn't impressed. In the iriminage, the uke step out backward with inside leg (closer leg to nage) to do a kind of backward with forward style. I tried that with my sensei. I found out my inside leg against my sensei's leg. I landed with my ass first. There simply no room to step back. Now I restorted back to my regular backward breakfall. I should ask Aikido3D for partial refund for my sore ass.

I wouldn't complain if Aikido3D from other source. But Donovan Sensei is known for his Ukemi. I expected better ukemi technique.

It speaks out the waza name in Japanese for every waza, which is very nice. I think it's a native Japanese speaker because it's very flat without the western tone.

Since I have no relationship to Aikido3D unless you count I bought a copy from them. I won't say the following list is accurate.


5th Kyu (6th Kyu + 60 days)

* Shomenuchi ikkyo (omote & ura)
* Tsuki kotegaeshi
* Shomenuchi iriminage
* Ushiro tekubitori kotegaeshi
* Katatetori shihonage (omote & ura)
* Morotetori kokyuho
* Ryotetori tenchinage

4th Kyu (5th Kyu + 80 days)

* Shomenuchi nikkyo (omote & ura)
* Ushiro ryokatatori kotegaeshi
* Yokomenuchi shihonage (omote & ura)
* Tsuki iriminage
* Ushiro tekubitori sankyo (omote & ura)
* Suwari waza:
o Shomenuchi ikkyo
o Katatori nikkyo (omote & ura)
o Katatori sankyo

3th Kyu (4th Kyu + 100 days)

* Yokomenuchi iriminage (2 ways)
* Ushiro ryokatatori sankyo (omote & ura)
* Yokomenuchi kotegaeshi
* Morotetori iriminage (2 ways)
* Tsuki kaitenage
* Shomenuchi sankyo (omote & ura)
* Suwari waza:
o Shomenuchi iriminage
o Shomenuchi nikkyo (omote & ura)
* Hanmi-handachi:
o Katatetori shihonage
o Katatetori kaitenage (uchi & soto mawari)

2nd Kyu (3rd Kyu + 200 days)

* Shomenuchi shihonage
* Morotetori nikkyo
* Shomenuchi kaitenage
* Yokomenuchi gokyo
* Ushiro tekubitori shihonage
* Ushiro tekubitori jujinage
* Ushiro kubishime koshinage
* Hanmi-handachi:
o Shomenuchi iriminage
o Katatetori nikkyo
o Yokomenuchi kotegaeshi

1st Kyu (2nd Kyu + 300 days)

* Katatori menuchi - 5 techniques
* Koshinage - 5 techniques
* Yokomenuchi - 5 techniques
* Morotetori - 5 techniques
* Shomenuchi - 5 techniques
* Ryotetori - 5 techniques
* Hanmi-handachi (ushiro waza - 5 techniques)
* Tantotori

dj_swim
11-11-2005, 11:34 AM
Okay, so I'll tell you my situation, and someone let me know if they think this tool would be useful:

I'm a fourth-class (meaning I've been to four classes) aikido student. Everyone else in my dojo is much more advanced than I am, so I do my best to simply take the advice of sensei, watch the demonstrations, and let my techniques "flow". However, the technical/logical learner in me wants to spend lots of time breaking down and analyzing the small details in the movements (especially footwork!) which I feel can be a nuisance to bring up in class. When I first saw this program, I thought it would be a great tool for me to analyze technique to my hearts desire, and the physical refinement would take place in the dojo.

Also, my school is ASU affiliated, but we have Aikikai in our dojo name, so I'm not really sure if I'm learning the same things as are on this CD (although from the pictures/videos on the website I definitely recognize some common movements).

My biggest concern right now is to learn the most basic movements very very well... I don't care if I never pass a kyu exam, that's not what I'm in this for... I'm in it for the long term... so I know that investing as much time as possible into the most basic techniques (especially ukemi) will pay dividends later. So...

1. Will this help me learn* the most fundamental techniques (including ukemi)?
2. Will this help me learn the names of the techniques?
3. Is this even the same style of Aikido as the dojo I'm currently attending?
4. Most importantly, will this give me the confidence to roll around on my concrete apartment floor? :D

*learn = technically analyze, I understand that this is in no way shape or form a substitute for dojo training

Alright, this post has become way more long winded than I intended, but I am just starting to grasp the variety of styles/affiliations/techniques that are out there, so I wanted to be clear about my situation.

Thanks in advance!

-Doug

roosvelt
11-11-2005, 12:00 PM
1. Will this help me learn* the most fundamental techniques (including ukemi)?
2. Will this help me learn the names of the techniques?
3. Is this even the same style of Aikido as the dojo I'm currently attending?
4. Most importantly, will this give me the confidence to roll around on my concrete apartment floor? :D

-Doug

>>1. Will this help me learn* the most fundamental techniques (including ukemi)?

You won't learn ukemi from it. The Uke doesn't do a simple normal backward roll in the entire program.

You can learn the kata from it.

>>2. Will this help me learn the names of the techniques?

Yes. It helps a lot with the pronouncations.

>>3. Is this even the same style of Aikido as the dojo I'm currently attending?

I believe so. Of course your instructor may have small variations.

>>4. Most importantly, will this give me the confidence to roll around on my concrete apartment floor? :D

Not a chance.

I think you're in the right direction. To learn ukemi is job #1 for beginners.

Aikido3D will help you in the future. But now, I think should get some Ukemi tapes or books first.

Michael Zartman
11-11-2005, 02:18 PM
Doug Wiley,
I am ASU trained (through all kyu rankings), although I subsequently trained in Aikikai, and am currently training in an early Maruyama Sensei style. My current sensei also is very much enamored with the aikido of Nishio Sensei (on DVD), and we are cross-training in those techniques as well. My point is that, although Donovan Waite Sensei does represent a different style, I have found that the fundamentals are pretty similar across styles--that should be expected, as the fundamentals were created by one man, O'Sensei. I am very impressed with Aikido3D. I believe Waite Sensei's movement, as animated, is excellent. His aikido does seem to vary somewhat from the ASU techniques I learned (from Saotome Sensei and Hreha Sensei), but his aikido works, and works well. I think Aikido3D is one of the best tools I have seen for mudansha--not only does it show the fundamentals of attacks and techniques from different angles and at slow and fast speeds, but it helps to teach the terminology. It will not help you learn ukemi--you can't learn ukemi from a software program, DVD or tape--ukemi must be learned by doing on the mat. However, Aikido3D does reinforce fundamentals concerning footwork, as well as blending, distance and connection between nage and uke. It is a tool, not a replacement, for actual practice. My best advice to you is that, after just 4 classes, you should not roll around on your concrete apartment floor. Learning ukemi on an appropriate surface is the most important thing for beginners, but Aikido3D can show you what you can expect to accomplish as uke and nage through the different stages of your development. Good luck.

crbateman
11-11-2005, 02:31 PM
Doug, this software is an interesting tool and worth the investment, but technically speaking, the proper place to learn anything of real value, especially for a beginner who needs fundamentals, is ON THE MAT. It's a little early after four classes to be mapping out your training strategy. Don't spend too much time "breaking down" and "analyzing" yet. Get in the dojo, take an overdose of basics, listen to your instructor's suggestions, and then at some point down the road, take stock of your progress, try to identify those areas which are lacking, and then set some goals and strategies. Aikido is a lifetime path for the dedicated student, and patience is a MUST.

As for "styles", whether your dojo is ASU, USAF, AAA, or McBudo, your instructor's Aikido is what you are dealing with the most, and his skill, attitude and ability will have more influence on you than anything else. The lines between styles are often blurry.

dj_swim
11-11-2005, 02:59 PM
McBudo

Hehe...

Oh I understand completely what you're saying about dojo time. I go every day my dojo is open, but the other three days of the week I'm thinking about techniques, so I might as well be looking at an illustration of someone who knows (very well) what they're doing than relying completely on my memory (which is foggy at best).

Also, I defnitely need to work on memorizing some of the names of things that I've done... I'm really horrible at that. "Seiza" is about the only thing I can come up with right now... if that gives you any idea, and this program should help with that and is a more effective use of time to do outside the dojo than asking sensei 1000 times:

Doug: "What's this called again?"
Sensei: "This is the dojo..."

;)

I do appreciate all the input though, and don't worry, I wasn't serious about rolling around on my concrete floors.... well a little... but not from standing!

-Doug

giriasis
11-11-2005, 06:46 PM
There is no 6th kyu on the video because there is no 6th kyu level for the USAF-ER. We start testing at 5th kyu.

Also regarding the ushiro ukemi for iriminage, that is how it is commonly practiced in the USAF-ER at a basic level. If you watch Donovan's Ukemi video there is an explanation as how to do this. But, I know exactly what you're talking about. It is correct that if you try to tuck the inside the foot that the nage's leg will get in the way and you will either be planted on your derrier or have to take a side fall. There is a simple adjustment you can make. As we practice it, you take a small step to the side with the outside foot first then go down on the inside leg. Once you figure this out you will be able to do this ukemi more easily, and you will be able to avoid nage's leg. As a result, you will be practicing a much softer ukemi and it's nice to utilize when your nage doesn't throw you with enough momentum to put you into a backward roll.

RobertFortune
11-18-2005, 06:16 AM
Take a look at this website: www.aikido3d.com

It has a product on there much like an instructional DVD, but in 3D graphics. The website states that you can view the technique from any angle and zoom in etc.

My question is, is it any good? Things like finger placement for kotegaeshi etc could be an issue in my mind. I would like to know from someone who:

A. Owns the product
B. Does not work for the company/producres

---------------------------

I *do not* work for the company. (I'd like to have some stock in it though!)

November 18th, 2005. I now have in my little grubby hands a bonified copy I purchased online. The online ordering system www.AIKIDO3D.COM worked flawlessly. The shipping was *real* quick (2 or 3 days to arrive via US First Class Mail) although I forget if I chose any quick delivery option for an additional charge.

I have the Windows version. I'm using Windows XP Home Ed. with Service Pack 2 installed. I'm using a Pentium IV (3.33 ghz) with built-in Radeon 9000 IGP graphics capabilty on a Toshiba laptop.

Installation of Aikido3D was extremely quick (less than 30-40 seconds) and worked flawlessly as did the online activation process.

I do indeed like this product. As a newcomer to Aikido I appreciate being able to both see and hear (optional commentary mode) the techniques\movements and replay any of them at will easily and as many times as I like over and over until I see what it is I want to see.
That ability to *easily* replay any of the techniques as many times as I want is in my opinion a definite advantage over a standard instructional video.

I personally find the "follow" view to be as helpful or even more helpful to understanding the techniques\movements as the default straight on view. The "from the top" view I don't (yet) find as useful.

I like the (optional) commentary mode because it allows me to hear the commentator say the Japanese words\terms used in Aikido which helps me commit to memory the way they sound. When I'm reading a book on Aikido I find that being able to mentally pronounce the Japanese terms\words helps my reading comphehension of the Aikido books I'm reading.


I think this is definitely where the future of instructional martial arts and other instructional visual tools is headed especially where movements of the individual people is of vital interest and importance to one's understanding.

Right now 814Works is still selling AIkido3D for the special introductory price of $49.95 (plus shipping and handling) and I would get it now at that special price before they raise the price to its list price of $79.95.

As I've read in others' reviews of Aikido3D there is room for improvement in Aikido3D. It isn't (yet) the definitive resource of *all* of the Aikido techniques and as best as I am aware at this stage of my study generally covers pretty much all of the basics and some of the variations. Realisitically no Aikido training material could ever hope to cover all of the possible techniques and variations\combinations, but yes Aikido3D could benefit from additional coverage. Perhaps another plus would be *some* added true true-to-life video to enhance an already wonderful product.

Ulises Garcia
11-18-2005, 11:44 AM
Hello everybody,

I received my copy of Aikido3D (for Windows) a couple of days ago, and I have to say that I absolutely love the product (I don't work there either). It is evident that much work, effort, wit and (most important of all) love for Aikido were invested into the creation of this learning tool. I found it kind of funny how the disclaimer ("we are not responsible for the injury resulting in the use or misuse of this product" kind of thing) pops up everytime you start the program. I agree that there's much room for improvement. For instance, once you load the program, you cannot do anything else on your computer until you quit, as the whole of the screen has been taken over by Aikido3D. I have found no way of running the program on a smaller window, or at least to have the task bar available. I have to quit the program if I want to start another application.

Further improvements could include (as stated previously) all types of Ukemi exercises (especially important for me, currently at about 30th kyu), including high breakfalls.

It would be cool if it also featured the Aikido of other grand masters, for example Steven Segal Sensei (whom I respect as Aikidoka, regardless of his personal problems), Shioda Sensei, maybe even "special appearance" of Takeda Sensei (yes, I know he's Daito-Ryu, but it would be cool nonetheless) with interchanging roles as uke or nage (maybe both at the same time). As an analogy, if the most complete chess programs feature the strategic minds of Karpov, Kasparov, Casablanca, etc., would it be really far fetched to think that Aikido3D could include Morihei Ueshiba's Aikido no less? Just a thought...

-U-

dj_swim
11-18-2005, 12:01 PM
Try Alt+Tab to get out of the window. This will probably only work if you've got the other application open before you start Aikido 3d. Otherwise try Alt+Esc to minimize or hit your Start button key to open a new program.

I hope this helps.

-Doug

aikidojoe
11-18-2005, 12:08 PM
Ulises,

I don't think that would be possible. The technology used requires the instructor (in this case Donovan Waite) to be hooked up to dozens of sensors to capture days of readings while he does the techniques over and over and over with his uke. Unless you are aware of a time machine, I think we're going to have to settle for those sensei still alive and willing to transfer their knowledge using this technology.

Ron Tisdale
11-18-2005, 12:13 PM
That's funny, I was having the same thought (about featuring other styles of aikido). Maybe if we start a letter writing campeign...

Best,
Ron

Ulises Garcia
11-18-2005, 12:18 PM
Ulises,

I don't think that would be possible. The technology used requires the instructor (in this case Donovan Waite) to be hooked up to dozens of sensors to capture days of readings while he does the techniques over and over and over with his uke. Unless you are aware of a time machine, I think we're going to have to settle for those sensei still alive and willing to transfer their knowledge using this technology.

Hello Joe,

You're right. I guess that was way too much wishful thinking. But, hey! Maybe one day, technology will evolve as to make it easy to translate O-Sensei's documented moves into computer 3D models (still a lot of wishful thinking, I know).

-U-

Ulises Garcia
11-18-2005, 12:21 PM
That's funny, I was having the same thought (about featuring other styles of aikido). Maybe if we start a letter writing campeign...

Best,
Ron

Hello Ron,

I'm with you there. Perhaps we should start the campaign. I wonder if anybody else has had the same thought.

-U-

Ron Tisdale
11-18-2005, 01:26 PM
Well, at least you spelled campaign correctly! You write the letter, and I'll just sign my name....

Best
Ran Tusdale...

roosvelt
11-18-2005, 08:29 PM
Well, at least you spelled campaign correctly! You write the letter, and I'll just sign my name....

Best
Ran Tusdale...

campaign, you don't need a useless campaign. You just need enough people vote with their hard cash. ;)

Ron Tisdale
11-21-2005, 08:25 AM
Too true, too true...

Best,
Ron

Ulises Garcia
11-21-2005, 10:48 AM
campaign, you don't need a useless campaign. You just need enough people vote with their hard cash. ;)

Geesh, and to think I was going to start typing the letter for everyone to sign (well, sort of...).

-U-

Ben Eaton
11-27-2005, 03:13 PM
Hi,

I've been reading this thread, and have been trying to find exactly what this "style" of Aikido is and how it differs from the style I learn in my dojo, which my sensei tells me is traditional aikido.

Could anyone tell me what style is on the program (assuming the same that Donovan Waite Sensei practises), and how it differs from traditional Aikido?

Ben.

George S. Ledyard
11-27-2005, 03:29 PM
Hi,

I've been reading this thread, and have been trying to find exactly what this "style" of Aikido is and how it differs from the style I learn in my dojo, which my sensei tells me is traditional aikido.

Could anyone tell me what style is on the program (assuming the same that Donovan Waite Sensei practises), and how it differs from traditional Aikido?

Ben.

There is no such thing as "traditional" Aikido. There are multiple Aikido traditions... There are styles created by teachers from the early thirties, there are styles created by teachers who trained in the late thirties into the forties and early potwar, there are styles created by post war deshi and then there are vastly different approaches taken by each of these teachers within each time period. None is more "traditional" than any other although each tradition is apt to maintain that it had more of a lock on what O-sensei taught than the others which is also completely bogus. Each teacher took what fit him and what he was capable of understanding. That's it.

Don
11-27-2005, 08:42 PM
Ledyard Sensei is correct. No one of the shihan who were sent to spread aikido (or those who remained in Japan) could be said to have complete insight into O'Sensei's aikido; after all it was his reality, his mind, his body, his perceptions that made it exactly his aikido. That all said, I think that most of the shihan at least at a basic level practice a similar physical model of aikido, which is why I can go to an ASU school or an Iwama school or to Hombu dojo and know basically what is going on. Specifically, Waite sensei studied in Great Britain under Chiba I believe, then came to NYC and was an uchi deshi for a long time under Yamada sensei. So, what is shown in Aikido 3D is the way Waite sensei does aikido as he learned it from Yamada sensei, which in turn is the way he does aikido as he learned it from O'Sensei. Technically, it presents "pretty much" what Yamada sensei would want to see in basic technique for any United States Aikido Federation student during the called portion of their shodan, nidan, sandan, rokyudan tests...

Talon
12-08-2005, 10:38 AM
I just got Aikido3d a couple of days ago and I must say I love the product. As other people mentioned, it would be nice if it had more techniques in it but I say this is a great start to an awesome product.
At our dojo we do some slightly different variations of some of techniques and generally practice some other techniques that were not included in Aikido3D. Perhaps newer verisons of the program will cover more techniques. Overall I think this was a great investment. I took the laptop to the Dojo yesterday and showed the program to the sensei and other students. They were very impressd with it and that day we even tried the (different) variations of some of the techniques presented on Aikido3D. I'm glad I purchased this product and believe other students from my dojo will end up purchasing it.

Hope this review helps other people considering this product.

giriasis
12-08-2005, 12:05 PM
Hi,

I've been reading this thread, and have been trying to find exactly what this "style" of Aikido is and how it differs from the style I learn in my dojo, which my sensei tells me is traditional aikido.

Could anyone tell me what style is on the program (assuming the same that Donovan Waite Sensei practises), and how it differs from traditional Aikido?

Ben.

It is the "typical" techniques of the United States Aikido Federation, eastern region. As already mentioned Donovan Waite's lineage began with Chiba in Great Britain and then he moved to New York where he trained under Yamada Sensei. His aikido defnently reflects Yamada sensei's but he, as well as the other sensei at his level (Konisberg, Bernath, etc.), have developed his "own" aikido.

I have been to his seminars and most recently he taught a class at out dojo while he visiting Ft. Lauderdale. He has a very kind demeanor and is a very approachable person. He teaches clearly and takes the time to go from student to student to explain the techniques in more detail. Hardly a stuff "air" about him. He is also more well known for his ukemi videos.

James Kelly
12-08-2005, 05:21 PM
Okay, so I'll tell you my situation, and someone let me know if they think this tool would be useful:

My biggest concern right now is to learn the most basic movements very very well... I don't care if I never pass a kyu exam, that's not what I'm in this for... I'm in it for the long term... so I know that investing as much time as possible into the most basic techniques (especially ukemi) will pay dividends later. So...

Ya know... I'm not usually one to tow the party line (asu) but I think you might be better off spending your money on Saotome Sensei's ‘Principles of Aikido' video. It's not so much about the difference in styles between usaf and asu which aren't so fundamentally different as, say, the differences between any two senseis inside one of the organizations, but for me, I'd rather see a real person throwing another real person (and it doesn't hurt that the person throwing is a direct student of O Sensei).

I'm actually a 3d animator and have done quite a bit of work capturing aikido and dance movements and still feel that the subtleties, the overall complexities of movement throughout the entire body, are not capturable by today's technology.

I think most of us would agree that aikido isn't only about where to put your feet and hands, there's another level going on. I can step in and push at exactly the same angle as a more experienced person and they can take uke's balance while I can't.

Usually we say this has to be ‘felt' on the mat. For me the word ‘feeling' is a code word for a whole lot of subtle movements that can't be expressed simply by saying you have to press here at this angle. That's the bit that I don't think our motion capture technology is able to get yet.

I'm not saying this isn't a cool tool (I've only seen it once on someone's laptop), but I wonder if for a beginner, the shihan's videos might be more helpful. I know for me, there's an extra level of inspiration, just getting jazzed up to train, that I get watching the videos that I didn't get watching the mocap stuff.

My $0.02

giriasis
12-08-2005, 09:28 PM
I agree with James that if there are videos that are specific to your association then get those. Then after you gain a basic foundation judiciously select others for variation or deeper insight from another perspective. But if your just trying to learn what is expected of you in an ASU school then get the Saotome or Ikeda sensei videos. If you're looking to branch out to other points of view then select others. That is what I have done. I have Yamada Sensei's Power and Basics series along with Donovan Waite's ukemi videos. However, I also I really love the Aikido In Training videos even though they are more Iwama influenced. But the key to not getting yourself confused is to immerse yourself in the "way" of your dojo and then spread out from there.

Talon
12-09-2005, 10:22 AM
My sensei and our Dojo is very open minded and new variations are always welcome. I must say that Aikido3d is far superior to any tape that I have seen or own just because I can change the angles of view and zoom in on the movements I find interesting. This allows for the study of the technique in much more detail. Videos are 2D period Aikido3d is in a virtual 3D world and it allows the viewer to view the movement in 3D. I strongly recomend it.

Tom Liauw
04-13-2006, 01:57 PM
Hmm, I'll be taking my 5th Kyu test soon. This thread is pretty useful. I'll probably get it when I can spare some money.

Anyone got more reviews?

crbateman
04-14-2006, 04:15 AM
I recently got my copy. I think it will be very useful, as long as it's used in the proper context. Those who would use it in lieu of legitimate training with a qualified instructor are just fooling themselves, but it does have considerable value nonetheless. And it is a very slick and versatile package, and a LOT of bang for 50 bucks. I hope that a feature will be built-in allowing "plug-in" of additional techniques, should the library be increased in the future.

Man of Aiki
04-16-2006, 12:17 AM
As an introduction to the art this is a very valuable tool.

Also, advancing technology should soon allow digital animators to do 3D compositions from film.

I've already seen CAD drawing programs that render flat 2D motion drawings into 3D animations.

Doing that with O-Sensei's old film footage should allow CGI programmers the ability to make a competent 3-D animation of what he is doing.

Being able to see O-Sensei's Aikido in 3-D form on a computer would be awesome.

I hope to see this done sometime in the next 20 years.

giriasis
04-16-2006, 10:51 AM
I just received my copy within this past week. I really find it a very useful tool. It is like a combination of using a book, watching a video and playing a video game.

First I want to say that there is an introduction which states that "Aikido3D is a training aid designed to complement your Aikido training journey." So the point of this video is NOT meant to replace dojo train just supplement it.

Nage / Uke Features: There are about two different features related to nage and uke. First, you can turn nage and uke on and off (my fave and most useful IMO). Second, you can turn their hakamas on and off.

I loved the ability to turn uke and nage off. Let's say I just want to watch nage's movement without the distraction of uke's. I can just click off uke and watch nage. And the same goes vice versa. And just watch the uke. If you want to see the ukemi from Donovan Waite's ukemi videos put in action just turn the nage off. Now, the ukemi portion is not explained, but the creators were apparently aware of this and stated in the introduction that if you want to develop your ukemi more to purchase the videos.

I also enjoyed turning the hakamas off so I can see the foot work more.

Viewing Options:
There are three options front, top and follow. In the front and top portions you have the addtional feature of zooming and rotating your view. So if you are watching from the front and you want to see the view from the back you can rotate the view 180 degrees. If you want to see the view from the side you can rotate the view 90 degrees. If you want to see a specific point you can rotate and zoom. I found the top view really helpful to watch hip rotation and hand placement. And this is a view you can't even get in a dojo. Unless you're sitting up on beams directly above your sensei and how many of us really can do THAT in our own dojo? The follow feature is nice, but you don't have control over where you follow. But it's my best guess that the creators choose to show the important points.

Description of the techniques:

There are two types: Written and Commentary

You can play the commentary by Donovan Waite Sensei as you watch. When you have the commentary turn on the technique continues to cycle until you press pause or turn it off. I would play this a few times then turn it off for my own personal exploration. There is written explanation of the technique on the left hand side of the screen and it's not a mere repeat of the commentary. Also, the written explanation goes into more detail.

Also a nice feature right below the written instructions is a place you can write your own personal notes.

Center Radials and Nage Footprints:
The Center Radials are useful to watch hip rotation and the nage foot prints and useful to more clearly see how nage moves in relation to uke. When the footprint feature was on I would pause and trace uke's line of movement. It was very helpful to see the angles and position of nage. I had a couple of "a-ha" moments just using this feature.

Summation:
Overall I really enjoy this training tool and I think it will be helpful for the beginner to learn the basic movement and for the more advanced to look at the details of things like angles or hip rotation. An advanced pracitioner will be able to more deeply explore the basic techniques and a beginning practitioner will be able to learn the basic form and movement of the techniques.

I really wish I had this as a kyu rank or even for my 1st kyu test as I think it would have been very helpful to have the ability to see details that you just can't see on a video or book. I think Aikido3D does a great job of explaining and demonstrating the basic techniques and when used right can be a useful tool for more advanced practitioners. As a more advanced practitioner I really could visually analyze the technique over and over. However, I would like to see some advanced techniques demonstrated which also include henka waza, kaeshi waza, tachi tori, jo nage and jo tori as well as randori which are all part of the dan requirements. Perhapst this could be good content for an Aikido3D Vol.2?

Regarding the technology:
Oh, visually, as a side note. I play video games and the movement was very akin to this. I think some limitations of Aikido3D is related to the technology rather than the skill of the instructor. Donovan Waite has very fluid and strong technique and the motion capture does not fully "capture" this; however, it does so significantly enough to still be a very useful tool. Perhaps as this technology improves then the 3D image movement will improve.

Tom Liauw
04-16-2006, 02:34 PM
Thanks for that review, Anne Marie.

Man of Aiki
04-16-2006, 09:15 PM
Yes that was very informative, thanks for taking the time to post all that!

giriasis
04-17-2006, 09:40 AM
No problem, guys. I hoped I addressed some concerns that some people where having about it regarding ukemi, the movement, and the intent of the creators. Oh, my biggest critique that I missed is that sometimes when you zoom the uke and nage go out of the frame. It happens on a few techniques, but overall it's a great feature.

statisticool
06-17-2006, 10:09 PM
I found this today:

http://www.aikido3d.com/index.php

Has anybody tried it out? Looks pretty interesting.


Justin

Mark Uttech
06-18-2006, 06:08 AM
Justin, I invested in it. It is pretty awesome and very well worth the $$. You can use it as a valuable training tool. Some of the techniques are different from what I am used to, I mean, the exact manner in which the techniques are executed. Nevertheless, the 3d images allow you to watch technique from many angles, allow you to remove hakamas to better watch footwork, if you are familiar with the technique and ukemi of Donovan Waite sensei, all the more reason to invest in this. Trust me.

giriasis
06-18-2006, 08:07 AM
Here's the main thread regarding Aikido 3D: http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6214&highlight=Aikido3D

statisticool
06-18-2006, 10:00 AM
Thanks Mark and Anne.

Guilty Spark
07-10-2006, 02:56 PM
Hey all

I just got my aikido3d program in the mail and it looks pretty cool.

Ran into a problem though, some of the wording for techniques is different than what I am used to in yoshinkan. Could someone tell me how I go about finding some kind of word translation for Aikiki techniques to yoshinkan techniques?

Some of the words are familiar but many are not.

Cheers
Grant

James Davis
07-10-2006, 04:22 PM
Hey all

I just got my aikido3d program in the mail and it looks pretty cool.

Ran into a problem though, some of the wording for techniques is different than what I am used to in yoshinkan. Could someone tell me how I go about finding some kind of word translation for Aikiki techniques to yoshinkan techniques?

Some of the words are familiar but many are not.

Cheers
Grant
Check out the index of "Aikido and the Dynamic Sphere", if you've got it. It has a few cross references.

akiy
07-10-2006, 06:03 PM
http://www.aikiweb.com/wiki/reference

-- Jun

Guilty Spark
07-10-2006, 06:13 PM
have it james but lent it to a buddy. I'm surprised at how interested people can be in Aikido even if they don't practice.

That's perfect thanks Jun!

James Davis
07-12-2006, 12:30 PM
have it james but lent it to a buddy. I'm surprised at how interested people can be in Aikido even if they don't practice.

That's perfect thanks Jun!
Someone here on this site wrote:

"Only lend what you're prepared to give."

I love my books, and I only lend them to people that I like very much...

...when I know where they live. ;)

Guilty Spark
07-12-2006, 01:17 PM
I'm living with this fellow for the next 6 months and his life will literally be in my hands every day- I'm confident I can coax it back from him. OR just take it back when he's not around, locks only stop honest theives ;)

Never the less that quote carries a lot of wisdom!

Setka
10-03-2006, 09:33 AM
http://www.aikido3d.com/

I went to a training camp this past weekend and they showed us this training CD/DVD. It's really good and I think it could be really useful. :cool:

MikeLogan
10-03-2006, 09:48 AM
Thanks for sharing, Carien, It is a popular piece of software, and I believe it is advertized on this very website.

roninroshi
12-05-2006, 07:59 AM
What do you think?
http://www.aikido3d.com/

justin
12-05-2006, 08:06 AM
been spoken about many time lately do a search some comments good about it some not so good.

Karol Kowalczyk
04-24-2007, 05:11 PM
I notice the first posts about this program were made near the end of 2004, and since the producers website states

"With an already rapidly developing
list of suggestions and requests,
we will keep on developing
Aikido3D with new volumes of
additional features and techniques!"

I wondered whether in the two and a half years since it came out, they had made any changes/additions to it. It still seems to be from 5th kyu to 1st kyu, but maybe they have added more techniques?

giriasis
04-24-2007, 09:12 PM
I notice the first posts about this program were made near the end of 2004, and since the producers website states

"With an already rapidly developing
list of suggestions and requests,
we will keep on developing
Aikido3D with new volumes of
additional features and techniques!"

I wondered whether in the two and a half years since it came out, they had made any changes/additions to it. It still seems to be from 5th kyu to 1st kyu, but maybe they have added more techniques?

I received this email back in March:

Dear Aikido3D users and fellow Aikidoka,

I would like to thank you all for the great support and amazing feedback with the first Aikido3D title!

We have been getting many requests for some additional Aikido3D titles so we wanted to give everybody in the Aikido3D community a quick update.

Thanks to the great response to our survey within current users, we have decided to produce additional Aikido3D titles, based on your requests, suggestions and ideas.

From analyzing your feedback, it seems like there are three focal points of interest:


Weapons (Bokken and Jo)
Advanced techniques
Ukemi and basic exercises

I am happy to let you know we have already started the work on these titles, scheduled for later this year.

As promised, the new titles (once available), will be offered to current Aikido3D users first, and at a special rate.

Last but not least, for those of you who have friends or relatives practicing Taekwondo, please visit www.tkd3d.com or forward this link to them. We think they will appreciate you letting them know about TKD3D, an amazing training tool, now available for both WTF Style and Sport Taekwondo.

Thanks,
Shai Golan
Aikido3D Team

Karol Kowalczyk
04-25-2007, 12:50 AM
That's interesting! So by the time volume 3 comes out, I may not need it any more:D

kayakichick
04-26-2007, 08:32 AM
I'm looking for feedback from anyone who has used Aikido3D.

Of course nothing replaces actual training, but as a supplementary tool is it useful? And why? or Why not?

kayakichick
04-26-2007, 08:58 AM
nevermind...I just found a whole thread in the General Discussion section...oops

Yianie
03-11-2012, 09:05 PM
Hello again. I'm off the fence and have joined a wonderful Dojo. Teacher is patient and well trained, all the students are very helpful. I asked in another thread about learning tools and Aikido3d was mentioned. From hat I can find on YouTube it seems that it can be a great tool. Does anyone tied it and do you have any opinions?

Yianie
03-12-2012, 05:48 AM
Sign. Up. Where?

Michael Hackett
03-12-2012, 04:00 PM
I didn't care much for Aikido3D. It is a well-done product, very reasonably priced and could be helpful for some folks. It is based on USAF flavored Aikido, and I think it represents that branch extremely well. It just wasn't my cup of tea. It is cheap enough that if you were to buy it and didn't get from it what you hoped, you'd still be able to pay the mortgage and eat that month. The producers put a lot of hard work into it and it is of excellent quality.

akiy
03-12-2012, 04:00 PM
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6214

-- Jun