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Pdella
08-10-2004, 12:14 PM
... so interested in aikido?

The whole idea of taking away someone's freedom and putting them in a highly dangerous and destructive place (prison) for extremely petty things is totally contrary to the spirit and philosophy of aikido. Aikido is about healing and bringing people together, not law-and-order police state nonsense like "we must punish them, they're evil."

That goes for bouncers too, harassing people because they don't have the right shoes on to get into the club. Get a real job. Actually my friend is a bouncer so I shouldn't come down so hard on it, but please, how does pushing someone around who wants to have a good time possibly work with the spirit of aikido?

Greg Jennings
08-10-2004, 12:34 PM
Peter,

If nothing else, I admire your forthrightness. OTOH, I hope you realize that your post is akin to stripping down to the skivvies, chaining your ankles together and vigorously swatting at a hornet's nest....

TT4N,

Ron Tisdale
08-10-2004, 01:28 PM
I'm actually going to entertain this seriously for a second. Let me preface this by saying that I've had a little bit of a 'thing' against cops for part of my life due to being African American and a few bad experiences.

The thing is, everyone feels a little intimidated by authority...until you need that authority to save your a$$. Then all of a sudden, even people acting badly suddenly want the Big Guy with the Gun (BGwtG) to save their butt. So, when the BGwtG, the club, the taser and other assorted goodies shows up, do you want him trained in muay thai and bjj, or in a strong style of aikido?

If its you he's come for? I'd pray like hell he's going to use aikido on me if I get out of hand, not the gun, not the bjj (rug burns from concrete do not a pretty boy make) and not muay thai. Same goes if I get out of line in a bar. I want that bouncer to be the most peaceloving guy in the world if he weighs 260, lifts, and is about to put his hands on me while I'm drunk.

I say the more aikido they do...the better! The fact is, they do a job most of us would shudder at just to think about it, they do it for nominal pay AT BEST, and many have to pick up the pieces of the reck it makes of their lives. Soooo, while I still have some reservations about the 'bad' ones out there;

Thanks guys, for making it just a little bit safer.

Ron

Aux
08-10-2004, 01:38 PM
... so interested in aikido?

The whole idea of taking away someone's freedom and putting them in a highly dangerous and destructive place (prison) for extremely petty things is totally contrary to the spirit and philosophy of aikido. Aikido is about healing and bringing people together, not law-and-order police state nonsense like "we must punish them, they're evil."


Did someone get arrested lately? :rolleyes:

Aikido is also about restoring harmony. Like it or not, there is an element of society that is very interested in being disharmonious - breaking the law. Taking away someones freedom is a method used by law enforcement to "restore the peace".

What would you suggest as an alternative?

Many Aikido techniques can be applied in physical confrontations to end a struggle and limit the risk of damage to both Officer and Citizen.

shihonage
08-10-2004, 01:56 PM
If Peter is older than 13, then I just lost my faith in humanity.

Chuck.Gordon
08-10-2004, 02:10 PM
Peter Della whines:
... Why are two-bit cops and bouncers so interested in aikido?
.

Hmm. First logical error, placing police officers and bouncers in the same glib category.

.The whole idea of taking away someone's freedom


Is what aikido is ALL about ... what happens to uke when nage/tori applies a good ikkajyo osae or sankyo?

.and putting them in a highly dangerous and destructive place (prison)


Weeellll, if they did something stupid to get themselves PUT there ...

.for extremely petty things is totally contrary to the

Now, you must define "petty".

And what makes you think that an officer of the law using aikido to quell a rowdy or otherwise disruptive citizen is contrary to the ideals of aikido. What sort of aikido do you practice anyhow?

You DO know the proper Japanese definition of harmony, yes?


Aikido is about healing and bringing people together, not law-and-order police state nonsense like "we must punish them, they're evil."


Really? Who says? Aikido is about maintaining balance (harmony) in society. Sometimes that means taking measures to unpleasant ends (for those who break the societal compact).


That goes for bouncers too, harassing people because they don't have the right shoes on to get into the club.


Or don't go to clubs where such things matter.

how does pushing someone around who wants to have a good time possibly work with the spirit of aikido?

Depends on that individual's definition og 'good time', yes?

Chuck
Who's bounced but never been a bouncer, but who HAS worked in security (military and civilian) and law enforcement arenas and was damned glad to have some technical knowledge that allowed him NOT to use a club or gun in some instances.

Bronson
08-10-2004, 02:27 PM
You DO know the proper Japanese definition of harmony, yes?

Would that be the "the nail that sticks up gets pounded back down" definition :D

Bronson

George S. Ledyard
08-10-2004, 02:36 PM
... so interested in aikido?

The whole idea of taking away someone's freedom and putting them in a highly dangerous and destructive place (prison) for extremely petty things is totally contrary to the spirit and philosophy of aikido. Aikido is about healing and bringing people together, not law-and-order police state nonsense like "we must punish them, they're evil."

That goes for bouncers too, harassing people because they don't have the right shoes on to get into the club. Get a real job. Actually my friend is a bouncer so I shouldn't come down so hard on it, but please, how does pushing someone around who wants to have a good time possibly work with the spirit of aikido?
You know, I am in many ways quite anti establishment person. But posts like this make me (well only for an instant) consider voting for Bush.Rather than respond in the manner that I initailly felt was appropriate, I thought I'd take the humurous approach...

This is taken from a "Community Policing" question and answer via an e-mail forum in California.
The question was: "I would like to know how it is possible for
police officers to harass people and get away with it? And where can you go for help, other than a civil attorney?"

And the reply was:

It is not easy. In California we average one cop for every 2000
people. About 60% of those cops are on patrol, where we do most of the harassing.One-fifth of that 60% are on duty at any moment and available for harassing people. So, one on duty cop is responsible to harass about 10,000 residents. When you toss in the commercial, business, and tourist locations that attract people from other areas, sometimes you have a situation where a single cop is responsible to try to harass 20,000+ people a day. A ten hour shift runs 36,000 seconds. This gives a cop only one-second to harass a person, and three-fourths of a second to eat a donut AND find a new person to harass. This is not an easy task. Most cops are not up to it day in and day out. It is just too tiring.
Since you now understand why we cannot harass everyone, let me explain briefly what we do to utilize some special "tools" to help us narrow down who we harass, so we can focus our limited "harassing resources" to those most worthy individuals.
They are as follows:

THE PHONE: People will call us up and point out things that cause us to focus on another person for special (concentrated) harassment. "My ex-husband just beat me and my boyfriend up and he is barricaded in the bedroom with our baby and a gun" or "My neighbor is beating his wife and she is screaming for help" are a couple code phrases that are frequently employed. Then we come out and give special harassment to the wife beater.
Another popular one on weeknights is "My neighbors are out of town and their kids are having a loud party."

CARS: We have special cops assigned to harass people who drive, they usually ride motorcycles so they can get around fast or cut through traffic to harass as many people as possible in their given shift. They like to harass the drivers of fast cars, cars blasting music, cars with expired registration tabs, and the like. It is lots of fun when we pick them out of traffic for nothing more obvious then running a red light, going around railroad crossing arms or driving 20+ MPH over the posted limit in a school zone. Sometimes we get to really heap the harassment on when we find they have drugs in their car, are driving drunk, are unlicensed or have an arrest warrant!

RUNNERS: Some people take off running at the mere sight of a uniformed police officer. Nothing is quite as satisfying as running after them like a trained beagle on the scent of a bunny. When we catch them, gosh darn it if there isn't always some good reason to harass them for hours!

CODES: When we can think of nothing else to do, there are books that give us ideas for reasons to harass folks. They are called Codes; Penal, Vehicle, Health and Safety, Business and Professions... They each spell out all sorts of silly things for which we can really mess with people. After we study these code books, we can just drive around for a while until we find someone violating one of the listed offenses and heap on the harassment!
Just last week I saw a guy smash several car windows right in front of me. Well, believe it or not, one of the code books says that is not allowed. That meant I automatically got to harass this guy.. of course he didn't like it, because just when I got done harassing him, the jail deputies harassed him and that will likely continue until the judge harasses him, then he will probably be harassed by a probation officer for the next couple of years.

It is a pretty cool system that we have set up, and it works very well most of the time. We seem to have a never ending supply of folks to harass. And we "get away with it"
because the good citizens pay the tab for us to keep the streets safe for them.. and your civil attorney.
Next time you are in my town, give me a "single finger wave". That is a secret signal that you wish for me to take a little closer look at you, and maybe find a reason to harass you.
Looking forward to meeting you, Officer Friendly, Community Policing Division

George S. Ledyard
08-10-2004, 02:56 PM
... so interested in aikido?

The whole idea of taking away someone's freedom and putting them in a highly dangerous and destructive place (prison) for extremely petty things is totally contrary to the spirit and philosophy of aikido. Aikido is about healing and bringing people together, not law-and-order police state nonsense like "we must punish them, they're evil."

That goes for bouncers too, harassing people because they don't have the right shoes on to get into the club. Get a real job. Actually my friend is a bouncer so I shouldn't come down so hard on it, but please, how does pushing someone around who wants to have a good time possibly work with the spirit of aikido?

Ok, I am sorry but I can't resist.
I just hope the next time your car is stolen, your child is being stalked by an internet pedophile, your sister's husband is beating her up regularly, your thirteen year old daughter has run away, etc that you have the consistency not to call on the people you have so maligned as "petty cops".

When you are in a club and some drunk biker type decides to dismantle you because he things you look like a dweeb, you might actually be thankful for a few of the three hundred pounders I have been training in my club security classes.

The people I train put their lives and safety on the line every day dealing with people the likes of which you don't even wnat to know about. One of my officers had a guy come out the door with a knife he had on the console. The fact that my student had done some training allowed him to disarm this idiot and save himself at the same time. What is more "aiki" than that?

People who espose this type of non-sense in the name of some sort of PC, groovy, vision of Aikido Peace and harmony
don't bat an eye when they hear of an officer being killed or injured in the line of duty. But they get all worked up when they hear about an abuse taking place.

We have lost six or seven officers in the Seattle area just in the past few years. One of them was killed with his own gun just a mile from my dojo. If he had trained with me he would still be alive. It pains me to see this happen.

You better take a look at your values system, buddy. When 911 happened it wasn't well meaning, wishful thinking folks like yourself that were running into the buildings to save the folks there, it was these "petty cops" who went in and never came out. Alot of the folks they saved probably felt like you did until the day that their lives were on the line and it was a cop who got them out alive and then died trying to do the same thing for another.

Sorry, end of tirade. never does any good anyway...

Greg Jennings
08-10-2004, 03:32 PM
Hey Peter,

Things are slowing down and I'm getting bored. Jump in and back up your post or, better yet, smack down another stereotype! Come on, big guy, you can do it! Your jaded and bored public is standing by!

TT4N,

Bronson
08-10-2004, 03:59 PM
When I was about 20 I had an epiphany of sorts regarding police. An officer had just pulled me over and I, unthinking, started digging in my glove box for my information before the officer was up to my window. When I turned to look at him he had his gun half drawn. That's when it hit me (the epiphany, not the gun). Cops have a shitty job! No matter how much my job sucks there is a 99.999% chance that I will not be shot, stabbed, run over, beaten or have my life threatened by another person in any way. 9 out of 10 people I deal with everyday aren't mad at me and I actually get thanked every once in a while for doing my job. That cop doesn't know you. He doesn't know you are a fine upstanding member of society who just happened to be going too fast. For his own safety he has to assume you are one of the dregs of humanity until he finds out differently....don't take it personally and deal with it.

Funny thing is, since I've readjusted my views I've never had any trouble. I treat them with respect because they have it tough and they treat me with respect because, even though I'm pulled over, I appreciate their presence.

Besides, there's a very easy way to stop being "harrased"...STOP BREAKING THE LAW.

Bronson

MitchMZ
08-10-2004, 05:27 PM
There are good cops and bad cops. Some of the laws are totally ridiculous and innocent people do go to jail and even fry. But, cops do have a TERRIBLY stressful job. I've come across both good and bad cops. IMHO, as I've been told this by a few law enforcement officials, is that law enforcement in general is just a band aid for bigger issues. Still, you need cops that can handle robberies, domestic violence etc when they happen. Just like soldiers, cops don't have a voice in the making of the laws they enforce...think about it. I always try and make life easy for cops when I'm dealing with them. For instance...telling them I'm going to reach into my glove box and then doing it very slowly.
.

Pdella
08-10-2004, 06:33 PM
Ron Tisdale - That makes sense. Cops using aikido may lower the rate of police shootings and brutality.

Matt Keren -
Aikido is also about restoring harmony. Like it or not, there is an element of society that is very interested in being disharmonious - breaking the law. Taking away someones freedom is a method used by law enforcement to "restore the peace".

Since when does "the law" = harmony? For example, I see an older guy around my neighborhood who's addicted to dope. He doesn't bother anybody and he's a very intelligent guy with a lot of insight into the world. But the police are always trying to arrest him, search him, send him to jail. So WHO is really being disharmonious in this situation?

Chuck Gordon - See the above. Basically I don't accept the party line of many on this board that we live in a perfect society where the law is a beautiful "societal compact" and those who break the law threaten us all. Do you have any evidence or reasoning to back up this assumption?

*For all those who do adhere to this assumption, does this apply to the U.S. only or to every society? What about police state dictatorships--is the law enforcing the glorious social compact there as well? Are forces who oppose the police state breaking societal harmony?

George S. Ledyard - Yes, cops do occasionally perform important services, but their solutions never solve the problems. If you want to talk about California, let's talk about California. We have 125,000 released inmates re-entering our communities (maybe not your community) each year. Due to private and legal sanctions against ex-offenders, it is very difficult or impossible for them to get a job, or social services, or financial aid for college. So our communities are filled with people whose literal best options for survival are to rob, attack, and sell dope.

Officer Smith becomes a big hero when he arrests Evil 17-Year-Old Drug Dealer, but when the same kid goes to the California Youth Authority, gets raped, tries to run away and gets the dogs sicced on him, do you think the community is going to benefit from that kid's life in the long run? By the way, I didn't make up the details I just mentioned, if you want more look up the recent reports on CYA, the most recent was written by former Governor Deukmeijan. [for starters, see http://www.cjcj.org/press/serious_problems.html]

And the scenario I just gave is a BEST case scenario (for non-violent offenses). Instead of that happening, a lot of time crooked cops will just take bribes from drug dealers or beat them up. For example, your Seattle PD's name was sullied recently by evidence that 41 (!!!) officers in just 5 years were accused of domestic violence [http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/police/]. These are our protectors?

Out of curiosity, how exactly are you "anti-establishment"?

Bronson Diffin - Sometimes the law is wrong and cops are wrong to enforce it. Thus, its not on the so-called criminal to stop their behavior, its on the cops to stop theirs.

Mitch Kuntz - What you said makes a lot of sense to me, but I put great value on personal responsibility and cops (and soldiers) enforcing unjust laws are also partly responsible for the consequences of their actions.

Janet Rosen
08-10-2004, 07:05 PM
Peter, I have lived in California over 30 yrs and was involved in the mid 70s in SF's anti-police brutality campaigns that worked to get civilian oversight of complaints against the police (I know that they have been hamstrung, but my point is, I am very familiar with some of the negatives of police depts). I've also had friends who were cops, good cops who worked hard and considered the effects of their actions. Police officers, like nurses, mechanics, farmers and moviemakers, run the gamut across all ethical, intelligence, emotional balance spectrums.
Seems to me that when faced with an out of control psychotic or drunk or drugged person, being able to use aikido to de-escalate with body language and words, and then to takedown/pin, is infinitely preferable to the clubs and guns we sometimes see brought to bear. And there are indeed police officers who would prefer to have as many such tools at their disposal as possible. It is when they don't have more tools that they have to resort to the few left....

shihonage
08-10-2004, 07:05 PM
Let's see,
1) Peter says "all law enforcement is bad".
2) People reply with "for the most part, law enforcement is good".
3) Peter counters with "a part of law enforcement is bad, and that supports what I said in 1)

Oh, please, spare us the routine and go troll somewhere else.

If it wasn't for law enforcement, your house would be raided by an elderly woman next door armed with a shotgun, and she'll gladly put one in ya because of your late night partying.
Hey, it's a dog-eat-dog world.

stuartjvnorton
08-10-2004, 07:10 PM
Unfortunately we don't have a perfect system.
Regardless, we still need people to enforce the one we do have.

Janet Rosen
08-10-2004, 07:18 PM
If it wasn't for law enforcement, your house would be raided by an elderly woman next door armed with a shotgun.
Hey! I resemble that statement! :-)

Michael Hackett
08-10-2004, 07:25 PM
Fired a few bad cops. Sent a few to prison. Buried a few good ones with honors and pain. On three occasions I DIDN'T shoot a violent felon because sankyo worked so very well. Ate a few donuts and spoiled a few loud parties. All in all, a pretty good life and I can face the mirror each day to shave. Oh yeah, it IS fun to drive with red lights and sirens too.

lt-rentaroo
08-10-2004, 08:44 PM
Mr. Hackett,

Thank you for the hard work you perform every day, keeping us safe! Also, thank you to the other law enforcement folks on the board. Sometimes people don't realize how difficult your job truly is and the sacrifices you make. I'm not going to add any further to the debate. Stay Safe!

vanstretch
08-10-2004, 09:34 PM
I am with Mike. And its an absolute perception issue between citizens and police.Good commo is key and if that fails, it's a joy to behold when aikido techniques aid in de-escalating a potentially fatal scenario! Many times I had stopped a car for a minor traffic violation(intending to warn:), and have the driver accuse me of "Wacial Pwofawlin".I then went to gently illustrate to vehicle operator, that the windows were tinted and I could not tell who(age,sex,height,weight, hair color, eye, clothing etc.....) was inside the vehicle cabin.

Michael Hackett
08-10-2004, 09:43 PM
Mr. Sharpe,

Thanks for the kind words. I appreciate them although I'm an old retired fart now.

Policing would be a much better profession if we trained our folks in aikido rather than "defensive tactics". Aikido provides many more tools in the toolbox than most officers have. Unfortunately funding seems to be the major stumbling block to having our officers well trained physically. New officers receive a great deal of academy training under the heading of defensive tactics, mostly with the use of the baton. None gets enough training to be really skilled, and then they seldom get refresher training to stay tuned-up. Some of course study various martial arts and use those skills to great success. Most don't and there is always the "flavor of the month" issue that departments are required to train their officers on. One year it was domestic violence, the next it was elder abuse. The mandates are always written by legislators with little input from the practitioners. I was very fortunate to have attended an academy in southern California in which Mike Visser, Sensei was assigned as a tactical officer (see Drill Instructor). Mike taught us aikido without ever using the name. While we didn't learn enough to pass an eighth kyu test, what we did learn stuck and worked.

There is an interesting character here in the San Diego area who has probably saved more violent people from harm than Mother Teresa - Robert Koga. Koga Sensei was an LAPD officer for many years and took his knowledge of aikido and created a curriculum of what he calls practical aikido. Many departments have enjoyed great success with his courses of instruction. Fewer officers get injured, fewer suspects get injured, all as a result of Koga Sensei's training.

In my opinion, we would all be better off if we could teach aikido to every cop in the country. We would still have a few knuckleheads in uniform, but the vast majority would be even better at what they do.

I'd better get off my soapbox now - the fresh donuts are just coming out of the grease!

Michael

Zato Ichi
08-10-2004, 09:47 PM
The whole idea of taking away someone's freedom and putting them in a highly dangerous and destructive place (prison) for extremely petty things is totally contrary to the spirit and philosophy of aikido.

Peter, you have to stop thinking about aikido like an aiki-fruitie. This is not how these people are approaching it: they're approaching it as a fighting system they can use to subdue another person with the least amount of injury possible.

As to the debate whether cops and bouncers can be bastards (or bitches), I'm coming firmly down on the side of yes: from my experiences, cops and bouncers can be some of the rudest people you'll ever meet, but I'll be damned if I'm going to live in a society without them. Otherwise, Aleksey's warning about the old women and shotguns should be heeded :)

One of them was killed with his own gun just a mile from my dojo. If he had trained with me he would still be alive.

I sincerely hope, George, that this was just a bad choice of words on your part, or you've left something critical out. Exactly how would this man be guaranteed to be alive if he had trained with you?

Jamie Stokes
08-10-2004, 10:27 PM
Theres probably a lot of law enforcement officers who would rather not put scared young kids into prison, but the law is not for them to apply, just enforce.

The courts apply degree of punishment, and there are that many going through the system that the human gets lost in the shuffle.

If law enforcement officers are learning Aikido or whatever, hopefully there will be less trauma for all parties involved.

Alas, not enough cops, not enough time, too many citizens.

And all citizens are protected under law. Check the American constitution, some thing about the right to life, liberty, something (Sorry, I'm an Aussie, dont know it down pat)

And all the arguments for cops on this page, apply also to fire fighters, teachers, doctors, those kind of people.

Peter, apply the logic of your first entry to an entire social spectrum (like teachers, fire fighters and so forth), I'd be really interested on how you apply it.
Do it on, say three different services, teachers, firefighters, doctors. Where does it lead.....?

with warmest respect,
Jamie

akiy
08-10-2004, 10:29 PM
This thread now moved to the Open Discussions forum.

-- Jun

xuzen
08-10-2004, 11:53 PM
Interesting thread. Has any one watch a TV series called 'The Shield'. In this show, the lead actor who is a cop, is a damn good cop, he managed to keep the street clean (carry out his duties well) with some dubious means (he reason that the means justify the ends). The character also isn't very clean (bribery and extortion) basically he is a very Grey character. But the show also shows him as a real person, he has bills to pay, he has to pick his child from kindergarten when is wife is not free, he has mortgage to settle... etc. basically he is a human being. If in a movie, he is portrayed as such, imagine what a real life police officer face. So, see through his uniform and badge and look at him as a human being.

Then maybe, Peter, there will be less discriminations of 'us' and 'them'. If any particular cop has done you any wrong, it could have been just a misunderstanding, if any injury arises, then utilise the Law to settle the injustice. If you are a criminal, then accept it that he was just carrying his just as you are doing your job. Things are as just as it is. Don't take it so personally.

Cheers :D ,
Boon

George S. Ledyard
08-11-2004, 02:24 AM
Peter, you have to stop thinking about aikido like an aiki-fruitie.

I sincerely hope, George, that this was just a bad choice of words on your part, or you've left something critical out. Exactly how would this man be guaranteed to be alive if he had trained with you?

In the analysis that took place after the incident it turned out that this officer had made virtually every mistake he could have made. He lost his gun to a stark naked, emotionally disturbed subject, and then tried to run for it. The subject ran after him and emptied the gun into him. While there is no "guarentee" in any of this, I can't see any of my own students, or the students of my other freinds who teach LE personnel for that matter, making the crucial errors in judgement and technique that this guy made.

Our law enforcement folks have virtually no training. Much of current policy calls for them to make decisions which can place the officer at risk in order to be seen as acting in a restrained fashion. Departments know that an injured officer is cheaper than an injured subject.

As for Peter's statements... Of course the police aren't a solution to anything. They work for us, we pay their salaries. They take their direction from the folks that we elect. Our society has an entire undercaste of folks that the rest of us do not even want to know about. It is the job of the police to keep these people below our consciousness. We get upset with the police only when their actions bring the existence of these social problems to our awareness.

Being a cop is one of the most thankless jobs one can imagine. We ask these people to deal with the elements of society no one else can deal with, give them very little support, second guess them at every turn, and then we act all upset when some of them act like jerks or abuse their positions

Don't go blaming the failure of our society to deal equitably with all of our citizens on the police. They are merely the folks that enforce the structure that the rest of us benefit from. You want the police to be better, give them some support by helping to solve some of the social issues that produce the people that they have to deal with on a daily basis.

As for "bouncers"... when you talk about the obnoxious, rude idiots that are often put in security positions at clubs you are not talking about professional club security personnel. It is far more the fault of the owner of the establishment that he thinks it is sufficient to plug in any old three hundred pounder and pay him minimum wage to deal with a group of people, most of whom are under the influence. The professionals I deal with feel that if they have to go "hands on" they have failed in their mission. These are some of the most effective conflict resolution people you will see. If they do have to go "hands on" they take pride in being able to do it without hurting the subjects. One of my long time students has done club security for years and he has very seldom needed to put his hands on anyone.

xuzen
08-12-2004, 04:04 AM
Speaking of two bits bouncer, about ten years ago when I was an undergraduate in Belfast, my mates and I were in one of those Irish pubs. It was near their closing time and we have those stereotypical huge bouncers. They were shouting "That's all folks, we are closing". Anyway, a lady friend of ours, lost her contact lenses during that time. We told the half twit bouncer about it and he just shouted at us he doesn't give a f**king care. Of course we were piss off. Anyway we did what any civilised person would do, we complained to the management. Of course we were given more time to look for our friend's lenses. No thanks to that half twit bouncer to reinforce the stereotypical bad image. Fast forward to the present time, I have already forgotten how the bouncer look like or the name of the pub. If I am ever in the same situation again, I'll still do the same, let the management handle it.

Bronson
08-14-2004, 11:04 AM
Unfortunately funding seems to be the major stumbling block to having our officers well trained physically.

I'm not really disagreeing with your statement, but why do think officers don't train when funding isn't an issue? Over the years we've had several officers training with us. All have said their aikido training has proved invaluable in their line of work. One is currently the police chief of our town. Sensei offered him the deal that if the city paid the max. monthly family rate of $80 any number of officers could train. The officers just have to show up. We've yet to have any come :(

One of the officers (retired) I used to train with said he wished there had been aikido training when he was active. He said all they got was "hit 'em and kick 'em till they stop resisting" training and then were told not to use it :confused:

Bronson

Michael Hackett
08-15-2004, 01:18 AM
Hi Bronson,

What I was referring to was the cost of departmental training, rather than the cost of aikido on an individual basis. Training costs here in California are very expensive when you consider that the trainee is being paid at least his hourly rate, his replacement is being paid overtime, and perhaps incidental costs such as tuition, travel and lodging. Most departments choose not to provide such a level of training. A one day class would cost as much as my dojo dues for more than six months.

I know a number of officers who study various martial arts on their own, including several aikidoka at our dojo. My son, still another cop, teaches Brazilian Jujitsu, Gracie GRAPLE courses, and Koga techniques in his own dojo and on duty with his department. Most of his off-duty students are law enforcement officers. Cops studying the martial arts just makes really good sense to me and I wish more would do it. Many officers take the attitude that if the department doesn't provide it, they won't bother. Oh well, they're the ones getting the stitches and torn uniforms at the end of the day.

All a matter of priorities I guess.

Michael

Michael Hackett
08-15-2004, 01:23 AM
Oh yeah, your Sensei made the Chief one helluva offer!

Another issue that comes to mind also is the Fair Labor Standards Act - federal law that essentially says that you must pay overtime for your employees who are doing work for you. How that's usually translated is a cop who took advantage of your Sensei's generous offer would be entitled to overtime pay while training and wouldn't have the right to refuse the pay under the FLSA.

Back to the donut shop with me.

M

billybob
09-01-2004, 12:39 PM
peter,

i am 41 and make a lot of social mistakes - still. when i get angry and lash out at the world my peers smack me down for it. emotion is good, lashing out in anger leads to trouble. i know, my nose used to be straight.

fortunately for me - i have aikido to keep me off booze and antidepressants/antipsychotics and to own myself in this life. and the key to that owning is correcting myself when things go awry - not the world at large. i'm a reverse activist - i'm going to fix me and hope the world catches on.

good luck sir.

billybob

vanstretch
09-01-2004, 02:18 PM
Good Job David!! Keep on! In an age of crybabies, fingerpointers,excuse makers, and apologists You are on track, drive on!