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CarlRylander
08-07-2004, 06:01 AM
What would you do against, short, jabbing, boxer type punches? I'm thinking of taking up Aikido, but I may do some boxing too so I can counter this. What would you do if you can't draw them in? Does Aikido have simple blocks?

Devin McDowell
08-07-2004, 07:27 AM
I don't think aikido usually has blocks. Blocking is stopping the attacker's force with your opposite, stronger force. Aikido is about redirecting or avoiding the attacker's force. That said, learning some blocks is a good idea.

Against the boxer's punches, I would try to keep out of the way and apply a tecnique if I could grab one of his arms.

Michael Meister
08-07-2004, 09:54 AM
We do this once in a while. Usually we start up with a block or two, like boxers would do. The point is, that you probably often don't have enough time in such an encounter. So the first goal would be to survive the first one or two punches.
Basically we move into the back and take his balance by his shoulders (sorry, don't remember what the technique's called, my english isn't good enough to explain it better).

Anywas, the most important advice I've heard so far was : "Don't box with a boxer, do force him to do Aikido".

shihonage
08-07-2004, 03:29 PM
What would you do against, short, jabbing, boxer type punches? I'm thinking of taking up Aikido, but I may do some boxing too so I can counter this. What would you do if you can't draw them in? Does Aikido have simple blocks?

Drive into him with ikkyo as he is putting up his guard (doesnt matter that you cant get his elbow up), continue applying pressure to his whole person and ride around his resistance with ikkyo ura or hiji-kime (sp?).

Do it in a fast and powerful way.


Against the boxer's punches, I would try to keep out of the way and apply a tecnique if I could grab one of his arms.


The complete uselessness of this approach becomes glaringly obvious when you actually get attacked by a boxer.
He's not some uke, he's an aware and mobile entity, here and now, which throws fakes and punches that cannot be caught.


Basically we move into the back and take his balance by his shoulders (sorry, don't remember what the technique's called, my english isn't good enough to explain it better).


You can't get behind a boxer unless you occupy him with something - hence the "driving into him with ikkyo" part.

Greg Jennings
08-07-2004, 06:11 PM
Take them to the deep water. That is, where you have the biggest advantage.

A straight-forward approach vs a boxer would be to show them a couple of boxing-type blocks and/or punches to lull them to sleep, then show them a jab and quickly transition to a dive into the inside or outside of one of their knees and drive, drive, drive while holding on. Their instinctual reaction is to go down face forward, thereby giving you their back.

My favorite is to hold onto the leg, step over it outside to inside and trap them in a very painful leg lock that leaves both my hands free. If someone can't figure out how to wrap it up from there, they just don't have any imagination.

Of course, how well you succeed at this depends on how well trained you are at it. Hard work, rather than a silver bullet.

Regards,

L. Camejo
08-07-2004, 10:06 PM
Hey Greg,

That tech you outlined above sounds very very similar to something I learnt from Mark Barlow in Akayama Ryu.:)

My personal thing for boxing attacks - follow and ride his movement and apply kuzushi. This however calls for an uncanny ability with distancing and timing (which we tend to practice a lot from dealing with jabbing tanto attacks in tanto shiai training). What has worked best for me is to not even go for the arm initially, as the other hand tends to get you as he won't stay there while you attack it and go for kuzushi or technique. Most boxers I know will step back a bit or turn to get you off of them (open space) and then quickly come back in with a punch.

Atemi waza (as in Aigamae Ate or Shomen Ate) can be launched as quickly as any punch and used instead to throw. This has worked best for me, especially when the boxer is recoiling from the jab. Timing and strong entry though is key.

Second option would be to use reactive kuzushi (on the retract of the jab) to control the arm or body with any sort of strong entering technique. In this option you are using the energy of the recoil to help you move into the boxer to control the arm and get kuzushi. Simple options that come to mind are tenkai kotegaeshi, tenkai kotehineri or sumi otoshi. The key here is to enter deeper than where the Boxer has attempted to stop when recoiling his punch, else you just run into the other hand and get creamed. Kuzushi is key.

Just my 2 cents.

LC:ai::ki:

akiy
08-07-2004, 11:23 PM
As can be seen at the bottom of this page under "Similar Threads", here are a couple of threads which relate to this topic:

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3948
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=536

-- Jun

Michael Meister
08-08-2004, 02:48 AM
You can't get behind a boxer unless you occupy him with something - hence the "driving into him with ikkyo" part.

Guess that's why my most succesful technique would runnung away anyway ;) .
Ikkyo was what we used to get into, we just finished it with going for the shoulders... if only I could remember the name. I think our strategies are not that far apart.

Michael Meister
08-08-2004, 03:09 AM
I should add, that we used a combination of hooks as attack. There are other boxing type attacks which probable need some variation anyway.

acot
08-08-2004, 07:27 AM
Don't mess with the fakes, only deal with the commited attach. Since a boxer's focus is on the upper body then perhaps an atemi(swift kick to the shin) to the lower body could be used to draw his focus away from their main weapon. Then apply which ever technique is available. Remember to keep the right distance and force him to extend his punches and body in order to reach you.

SeiserL
08-08-2004, 10:21 AM
IMHO, enter deep, off the attack line, Irimi-nage, Sayu-undo, and if you can control the elbow on th retratcion take it to the rear kuzushi (balance) point. Jabs can also be slapped down into Kaiten-nage.

Actually, there are ways to make almost any waza (technique) work if you apply the concepts and practice. Jab, cross, hook, and uppercuts are just another atemi (strike).

Go to the dojo and play with it until you figure it out. Have fun.

MitchMZ
08-08-2004, 11:52 AM
It would be incredibly hard to deal with a boxer, but I think the best technique against a boxer is just a simple side kick or half kick to the leg. Sure it isnt necessarily true Aikido, but after I applied those atemi I would probably move in for an irimi nage. I'm actually planning on doing some boxing once I get a stronger base in Aikido. Also, I don't really plan on being able to go around the outside of a punch/jab. I find 9 times out of 10 that you should treat punches/jabs almost like a yokomenuchi strike and use triangular footwork to step inside the line of attack rather than around the outside. There are still a TON of Aikido techniques that can be done from this position. I even thinking if you did a kokyunage variation when you apply a half kick to his lower leg that it would work fairly well...because at that moment he would be off balance and if you are close enough youd be in a good position for it; almost like your tripping him with your leg like you would in judo.

Mark Tennenhouse
08-08-2004, 09:03 PM
To handle a boxers jab you need to train against this technique as well as against hooks. It's crucial to remember a certain principle in fighting..Defense first.. attack later..
I've done some boxing, wing chun and other arts in which the attacker used realistic and repeated striking attacks to the face and head. As most street fights and boxing attacks involve head strikes this is a very important situation to learn about. The safest way to handle the attack is by using a boxing defense to ride out the strikes until you get close enough to grab Uke's head and bicep; a tie up. From there you can work aikido. The defense is simple to use once you've practiced it a little. You crouch slightly forward and put both palms on your forehead with the elbows pointing forwards and the forearms covering the face. Never move your hands off the head because this leaves your arms loose allowing strikes to enter. This position is an extremely tight emergency position that expert boxers use when in trouble. it allows a fighter to survive both hooks and straight punches during repeated striking attempts. By twisting slightly side to side you can deflect straight punches. By sliding a hand all the way to the back of the head, you are able to use a boxers block to nullify heavy hook punches to the head. I have tapes showing how this is used in street fights and NHB matches by grapplers to survive boxing attacks. It works and doesn't require great skill, speed or training. The leg tackle requires you to lower your head too much. All of the arm grabbing tactics are extremely risky against striking attacks because missing means you'll be taking several more strikes and the arms are moving too fast to grab safely. I've tried both the tackle and and arm grabbing tactics with very very little luck. As sun tzu said..know the enemy..win half your battles..know yourself win half..know both..win 100%..
Sincerely..Mark T

Paul Sanderson-Cimino
08-08-2004, 09:07 PM
From my limited experience in sparring...not actually with a boxer...don't ignore atemi. Yes, the boxer is going to be much better than you at striking; but I find atemi are crucial. Much harder to pull off that quick jab when they have to at least respond to some sort of threat.

I think the best advice, though, is to play around with it and learn. If there were easy answers that didn't need training to implement, dojo would be libraries...

xuzen
08-09-2004, 12:52 AM
Have you ever notice how boxer hold each other in the ring to prevent the other player from jabbing. There, do the same, only difference is in a competitive ring, the boxers are by law not allow to use leg. In actual martial combat, everything is fair game. You can almost do anyting once you hug him. Osoto gari, side reap, hip throw, the only limitation is your imagination.

Regards,
Boon

batemanb
08-09-2004, 02:04 AM
....but I think the best technique against a boxer is just a simple side kick or half kick to the leg. Sure it isnt necessarily true Aikido.........

I've seen Gozo Shioda use kicks quite frequently in some of his videos.

Bryan

MitchMZ
08-09-2004, 09:23 AM
Yeah, Ive also seen Saotome Sensei use a front snap kick in a demonstration DVD. It was interesting that he didn't use it like you would normally use a kick, but just used it to bring his uke down to the mat. It almost could be though of as an irimi nage using his leg!

Ron Tisdale
08-09-2004, 01:29 PM
Have you ever notice how boxer hold each other in the ring to prevent the other player from jabbing. There, do the same, only difference is in a competitive ring, the boxers are by law not allow to use leg. In actual martial combat, everything is fair game. You can almost do anyting once you hug him. Osoto gari, side reap, hip throw, the only limitation is your imagination.

Regards,
Boon

Depending on the ability of the person you're hugging...:) Try that against a boxer who has done some judo and you're in for a surprise...I would not equate the distance in a standing clinch with the ideal distance for aikido technique. YMMV...

RT

Michael Meister
08-09-2004, 01:53 PM
Another problem with hugging is just, that boxers usually are quite well muscled. I'd give me not more than a few seconds, by than I'd surely have to come up with something else. On the other hand, it gives you at least a little time to think of something.
Depending on the power and position your opponent might go for your kidneys in a clinch. Nothing I'd like to have someone doing.

Ron Tisdale
08-09-2004, 01:59 PM
shots to the kidneys, back and side of the head, knocks your knees around with his knees to take your balance, elbows to the short ribs, headbutts, all kinds of nasty things boxers can do in a clinch. And it takes work (if not practice) to actually 'tie' them up...they are used to people trying to tie them up and fighting through it. I'm not saying they are the end all be all of fighting..just that its awfull easy to type a strategy to deal with them...

Ron

gilsinnj
08-13-2004, 10:40 AM
We practice these fairly often, and have found that there are some basic Aikido techniques that are possible against jabs and hook punches. The thing that we've found with jabs is that they are typically not full-out power punches. They are many times used to setup other punches with a lot more power (i.e. the hook punch).

FYI - We don't practice full speed jabs until our students get up to the 2nd kyu level. Usually, it takes that long for the student to become used to doing the basic techniques without thinking about them. They can start working on moving quickly, but not fast and flailing.

Nage needs to remember that there is almost no way that they will be able to catch the fist or wrist of uke. The jab punch is extremely fast, and doesn't allow for much time to try to grab. The best thing we've found is to turn tenkan (avoiding the punch as much as possible) and come heavy down on their elbow. Since the jab isn't done with much force, uke is very often fully in balance during the entire punch. By using a heavy down on their elbow, it brings them off-balance, and then you can work more standard Aikido techniques (usually a good kokyu nage right up the front works well).

As I said earlier, we don't start our junior students with fast jabs, but we do work with them as they get more senior. By the time they get to 2nd and 1st kyu, we use full speed jabs and we've added in the follow-up hook punch. This really challenges the students, but makes them sharp.

In reality, we hope that our students won't get into this kind of situation and learn another way to deal with the situation, but... The biggest thing these techniques teach the students doesn't seem to be dealing with a real boxer jab, but moving from one point. We've found that without moving from one point, there's no way you can move quick enough to get out of the way of this jab. By moving from one point, you stand a good chance of at least getting out of the way of the jab punch. From there, there's a lot of good Aikido techniques and principles that can be applied.

Just some thoughts,
Jim

Lyle Laizure
08-13-2004, 12:39 PM
You have to use atemi to create your opening to move in or to draw the attacker out of his/her sphere of strength and balance.

paw
08-13-2004, 01:25 PM
You have to use atemi to create your opening to move in or to draw the attacker out of his/her sphere of strength and balance.

I would expect that atemi would be the sphere of strength and balance for a boxer.

Regards,

Paul

Lyle Laizure
08-13-2004, 08:47 PM
The boxer is a striker but his sphere of strength is the same as anyone elses. To draw him/her out of that sphere you have to take his balance. In the case of the boxer this is more of a mental balance you will have to address. You have to make him/her miss and counter strike (atemei). This over time will draw the boxer outside of their normal boxing mode. This is not easy. Practice, practice, and more practice.

L. Camejo
08-13-2004, 09:40 PM
You have to make him/her miss and counter strike (atemei). This over time will draw the boxer outside of their normal boxing mode. This is not easy. Practice, practice, and more practice.

Of course there is also the application of atemi waza with Sen and sen no sen timing. Letting your atemi waza land before his by pre-empting the strike. As said, it takes practice.

LC:ai::ki

paw
08-15-2004, 07:11 AM
The boxer is a striker but his sphere of strength is the same as anyone elses. .... You have to make him/her miss and counter strike (atemei).

A boxer is conditioned to deliver and receive strikes and as Ron pointed out in his post, boxers are quite content to work in the clinch. I am skeptical that an aikidoist would be better at delivering atemi at distance or from the clinch better than a boxer unless the aikidoist was also a better boxer. As such, I wouldn't be inclined to adopt that as a general strategy.

Personally, I've seen big entering movements, irimi nage, o soto gari, etc... be more successful. Lynn mentioned that briefly in his post.

In any case, YMMV.

Regards,

Paul

CNYMike
08-17-2004, 09:38 PM
What would you do against, short, jabbing, boxer type punches? I'm thinking of taking up Aikido, but I may do some boxing too so I can counter this. What would you do if you can't draw them in? Does Aikido have simple blocks?

A jab is a speed shot, not a power shot, so the best bet would be to stick to it and follow it back. Both Pentjak Silat Serak and Francis Fong's version of Wing Chun appy this principle, so it is worth thinking about. Be mindful of the rear hand, and remember a jab/hook with the lead hand is possible.

Cross training in boxing and aikido is a good idea. Adding Filipino Kali to the mix, if possible, would be even better as the emtpy hand section already combines striking and grappling.

Hormat ...

Mas Mike

M G
08-18-2004, 01:11 PM
At K1 a good boxer fought a poor kickboxer, guess what the kickboxer won.
Just break his leg at the side of his knee, (most) boxers are only familiair whith handwork.

Chris Birke
08-18-2004, 01:34 PM
"At K1 a good boxer fought a poor kickboxer, guess what the kickboxer won.
Just break his leg at the side of his knee, (most) boxers are only familiair whith handwork."

So, if you can jab you can't kick and vice versa?

//

To counter the jab, learn the timing on it by sparring. Follow up with any number of techniques, from a simple cross counter to an entering throw. The timing will more complicated than the technique because its so varied.

Ultimately this is a basic concept, and you a good teacher will be able to teach you, and then let you implement what you trained. If you ask "how do I counter a jab" you should also be asking "where is a competent and complete teacher in my area" because the latter is a lot more valuable.

Lachlan Kadick
08-18-2004, 02:16 PM
buy your time by deflecting the jabs, letting yourself remain loose until you see an opening or chance of any sufficient kind.

Greg Jennings
08-18-2004, 02:38 PM
Hey Greg,

That tech you outlined above sounds very very similar to something I learnt from Mark Barlow in Akayama Ryu.:)

Well, imagine that! Birds of a feather and all...

I actually spent quite a bit of time in my youth boxing, wrestling and then full-contact kick boxing under rules that allowed take downs.

I was 6'2" and wrestled in the 132 lb class my senior year of high school. I was obviously NOT good in a clinch with a guy that was shorter and much strong than me.

So, I developed a good shoot. I've caught many, many people with a single or double-leg.

It's straight-forward, but it's slower than a punch. It therefore needs to be set up well. A little "mental kuzushi" by suckering the boxing into thinking he sees what is familiar to him goes a long way.

YMMV,

Greg Jennings
08-18-2004, 03:01 PM
The leg tackle requires you to lower your head too much.
The low-leg drive is a favorite technique of many of the Japanese NHB players but isn't seen much otherwise. It's quite effective but has to be transitioned to correctly.

I do it slightly differently from the basic low-leg takedown. I like to hook my inside hand on the outside of the knee and put my outside hand on the inside of their shin and wrench to the inside.

It plays to their tendency to go down face-first, hence giving you their back.

I then hold onto the leg and overhook it from the outside to inside with my inside leg.

And, to tie it back into aikido, I've done the same throw often from hanmi handachi.

Regards,

CNYMike
08-18-2004, 09:48 PM
So, if you can jab you can't kick and vice versa?

Yeah, Thai Boxers might beg to differ on that point. :)

jonreading
08-23-2004, 02:12 PM
I've had some experience with boxing situations. I find that two rules stick out in my head when I get asked questions about applied boxing:
1. Boxing jabs never committed attacks; they are designed to be quick and deft.
2. Boxing has been around for a long time; I am sure if there was a "block" from jabs,hooks, whatever, someone would have found it by now.

That said, my reply is usually: "Aikido works because the attack is committed and sincere. A boxing jab is not a committed attack. But, you can spoil boxing-type jabs (and power jabs, uppercuts, and crosses) by being patient. Rules dictate that boxers must fight each other; we don't have such rules. I don't entertain that a good fighter can block or catch punches from another good fighter. Patience is a good defense - let the jabs slow down, let frustration force bad punches. Then do aikido." Sometimes, we don't have time though, which is another question.

Muhammad Ali (the best fighter I ever saw) used this tactic allot. He let his opponents throw many more punches, get frustrated, then he would unload. George Foreman (in his prime) did the same, usually taking the hits, but with the same result. Frazier... the list goes on. Boxing is a great tool to watch fighting trends, because it has been recorded for many years.

paw
08-23-2004, 02:57 PM
At K1 a good boxer fought a poor kickboxer, guess what the kickboxer won.

There are also examples to the contrary. In K1, fighters have neutralized kicking by simply closing the distance.

Regards,

Paul

CNYMike
08-23-2004, 04:10 PM
..... Boxing has been around for a long time; I am sure if there was a "block" from jabs,hooks, whatever, someone would have found it by now....

Western boxing as it is now is derived from Filipino boxing, aka Panantukan, and they have "blocks" against those punches. Usually involves parrying with one hand and striking with the other.

Usagi
08-26-2004, 11:14 PM
1. Jabs can be extremely powerful (i've seen people being knocked unconscious by jabs);
2. AiKiDo doens't necessarily needs commited attacks, as long as the aikidoka possess good kokyu.
3. AiKiDo isn't about fighting, but about avoiding unnecessary violence.

The point about jabs isn't really about their speed, but about maai.

Unless your are talking about "Giant Warrior Dai Leon"(from japanese series Jaspion), all human beings approach first and send the jab out nanoseconds later.

Even throught nanoseconds may sound like little time to work, its more then enough.

Have in mind that jabs:

1. always aim to the face;
2. they almost always recoil (to use the spining movement of the waist to give power to the straight punch).

Keep this points in mind and, when a boxer starts to wave in front of you react to his APPROACH, not to his jab.

How to respond? Move your face slightly to the side (any side) and grab his face.

A grabing hand is faster then a jabing hand (which one you use to avoid objects thrown to your face?), as jabs recquire shoulder motion for cocking action.

If you prepare yourself to grab his face in the minute he gets into your grabing range your arm will ocupy the center line before his jab, thus parrying it.

Once you have your hand into his face, scratch his eyes.

Boxers usually don't care for hands touching their faces, they worry about punchs, so the "scratching eyes" will work.

Also, your hand will make easy for you to feel his motion and avoid the straight punch that comes after the jab.

Keep pressing him with "touching hands" (eyes, inside nostrils, etc...) and soon he will be wanting to move out of your range.

How to train that? Slap attacks to the forehead.

Either one or sequences of two or more slaps to the forehead simulate well a sequence of jabs to the face. Just be careful in your attacks to the jab-launcher (very easy for a grabing hand to go too hard on the nose).

This whole concept is Kiri otoshi from ItToRyu (cut down your enemy's cut).

willy_lee
08-28-2004, 01:46 AM
Man, what is it about boxing and aikido topics? They seem to popup regularly and go on forever. I wouldn't contribute to this thread except that I see some weird stuff being posted that I want to question.

- jabs aren't always to the face, they can be to the body. Picky I know ;)

- there are jabs and jabs. Some are quick flicking shots, some are meant to snap your head back, some are meant to take your head off.

- there have been always been blocks and parries in boxing. Boxers do block, catch, slip, dodge each other's jabs all the time. They just know that they can't always successfully do so.

- It seems a little strong to say that Western boxing is "derived" from Filipino panantukan. There is a lot of speculation about Filipino influence on boxing, but I don't think anyone seriously believes that boxing comes straight down from panantukan.

- being "patient" against an attack won't buy you much unless it is not hurting you, i.e., you must be defending against it somehow. If you are doing so by backing up and staying away, why aren't you running?

- "have to make him/her miss and counter strike (atemei). This over time will draw the boxer outside of their normal boxing mode" Dude, this *is* the boxer's normal boxing mode. :)

I just wonder what it is about boxing that seems to fascinate aikido people, kinda like the cobra is said to fascinate small birds :) Look, a boxer is nothing special, it is just someone who practices real hard to hit other people who are hitting back. If you want to know how to defeat one, look at how they train, practice against one.

As usual Ellis Amdur has a great article related to this topic.

=wl

BLangille
08-28-2004, 08:48 AM
I think the fascination with boxing comes from the fact that if you get into a fight on the street there will be boxing type punches thrown. So in reality this is an "aikido and street effectiveness" question.

Usagi
08-28-2004, 10:35 AM
- jabs aren't always to the face, they can be to the body. Picky I know ;) =wl

But, without sounding arrogant, what does a jab to any other target that is not the face is useful for?

A JAB is a snap punch, a slap given with the fist (if you don't agree, it is because you didn't visualized) .

To any target that is not the face, it is useless.

AND dangerous as it exposes your face.

The functions of the jab are:

a) disturb your opponent;
b) obstruct his vision, thus it must be to the face;
c) hit him to cause openings.

The only other targets that come to mind are the throat and the eyes, i.e. face area.

And as mentioned, the reason why we worry about Boxers is because they have the best punches :)

willy_lee
08-29-2004, 01:53 PM
I think the fascination with boxing comes from the fact that if you get into a fight on the street there will be boxing type punches thrown. So in reality this is an "aikido and street effectiveness" question.
There may well be punches thrown -- unless you are in a fight with someone who has boxing training, they are probably not boxing punches. Do you really think that people with no training automatically make crisp, snappy, precisely targeted jabs, to your face or anywhere?

Renato, I said I was being picky :)

=wl

Usagi
08-29-2004, 09:58 PM
Not picky, sensitive and reasonable ;)

You are right, not all assailants are going to be "Gold gloves"...

At least in my home town, the most usual attack i've seen is what we call "dog killer", which is a punch given with a huge arc (think of a baseball player hiting a home run without the bat and using only one hand).

It is stupid and very easy to deal with (close in, atemi do the face and pretend it was a yokomenuchi), but it is the "Real deal"...

The reason why I personally work with jabs is because they are harder to deal with; if you can deal with them, you can deal with most anything else...

And, althought boxers are very good in dealing with punches and clinchs, they are not very good in dealing with low kicks and parryings.

When the gloves are taken it becomes a lot more easier to dodge their punches..but it takes practice.

jonreading
08-30-2004, 12:34 PM
I think that are several questions being asked just since my last comment, I don't know which one to address...

To me, a boxer is a western boxer that fights in a ring. Jabs are a short, directed punch to the face, shoulders, and maybe to the body (many body blows are short hooks that reach around defense); they are characterized by a unidirectional movement, usually with a recoil. They are designed to distract and spoil your stance. The strength of the punch in proportional to the fighter and skill. Fighters are fascinated with them because a boxer's sole training is an athletic endeavor to hit and block/protect.

Other boxing styles (Fillipino, Brazilian, Indian, East Asian) are slightly different, each with their own rules. Its hard to draw comparison when the style keeps changing for argument's sake.

In the truest sense of street fighting, the question begs a different argument. If the question changed from "how do you defend a boxing-style jab?" to "How do you fight a boxer?", there are good comments throughout this thread. In an applied setting, I would agree with earlier comments that the chances are slim you will ever encounter a proficient boxer, or kick boxer, or karateka, or judoka, etc.


Also, Willy Lee wrote:

"- being "patient" against an attack won't buy you much unless it is not hurting you, i.e., you must be defending against it somehow. If you are doing so by backing up and staying away, why aren't you running?"

But remember, "patience" is not a length of time, but rather a period of opportunity.

mgreen
08-31-2004, 10:07 PM
baseball bat? ;)

Pankration90
10-29-2004, 02:37 PM
Sorry this post is long, but there is a lot I wanted to reply to.

A jab is a speed shot, not a power shot, so the best bet would be to stick to it and follow it back.
Following a jab back is hard and not a high percentage tactic. Like you said, jabs are designed to be fast and set up combos. They go straight out and straight back in on the same line, and don't follow through their target. Jabs don't always even make contact; a flinch is all the boxer needs.

If you try to follow a jab back, you are going to walk into a cross or hook. My solution would be to learn to box. Boxing footwork and movements (slipping punches, bobbing and weaving, ducking, etc.) are all useful to know.

Just break his leg at the side of his knee, (most) boxers are only familiair whith handwork.
Breaking someone's knee isn't as easy as you might think. People get kicked in the knee with full power roundhouses in kickboxing events all the time (a low thai roundhouse is aimed at the thigh, and sometimes the aiming is off- in short, knees get hit) and the knee doesn't get broken.

Breaking a knee might be possible if the person is standing with all their weight on the leg you are hitting and their leg is perfectly straight, but if their knee is bent and they are moving around (boxers use a lot of footwork) then breaking the knee isn't very likely.

To understand what I'm talking about, get two boards (the kind used for breaking in TKD, karate, etc). Have a training partner hold one board with a hand on each side. Hit it and break it. It's pretty easy it is being secured at each side (kind of like when all your body weight is on one leg, so you your leg acts as a board but the "hands" are the ground and your body weight). Now have him throw the board in the air and try to break. It's going to be harder because it isn't secured. It's probably going to move when you hit it because their is nothing holding it down.

buy your time by deflecting the jabs, letting yourself remain loose until you see an opening or chance of any sufficient kind.
Deflecting jabs is a waste of energy. They aren't going to knock you out. Just raise your guard and absorb the blow on your forearms or fists or learn to slip punches (moving your head and sometimes your body off the line of the attack while moving into the opponent).

Muhammad Ali (the best fighter I ever saw) used this tactic allot. He let his opponents throw many more punches, get frustrated, then he would unload. George Foreman (in his prime) did the same, usually taking the hits, but with the same result. Frazier... the list goes on. Boxing is a great tool to watch fighting trends, because it has been recorded for many years.
Boxing matches last a long time, whereas street fights last a few seconds. You won't have time to let the opponent get tired. You have to run away or do enough damage that they won't be able to chase you, then run. Staying on the defensive is bad in a street fight. Most "reality based" styles advocate attacking (senshido calls it a "predator to prety" shift when you turn the other guy from predator to prey by going on the offensive) hard and fast so you can escape.

Also, your examples were two great boxers defending agaisnt boxers. Ali was one of the best boxers ever, and George Foreman was good. They were better than those guys at boxing. They were also in a boxing ring, expecting the opponent to use boxing. Most aikidoka aren't necessarily good boxers, so that strategy won't work. On the street you probably won't know that they are a boxer, and you won't know what to expect.

Watch some MMA fights. They aren't as "real" as street fights, but a lot of the same things can be seen. You don't see many people just letting their opponent tire themselves out while standing. They go in hard and fast and try to get it over with, and that's how it happens in a street fight.

Western boxing as it is now is derived from Filipino boxing, aka Panantukan, and they have "blocks" against those punches. Usually involves parrying with one hand and striking with the other.
Do you have any evidence of this? I've never heard this before, and it doesn't really make sense. Boxing (in a different form) was around in ancient Greece in the Olympics. Since then it's changed a lot (with the introduction of groin cups, mouth pieces, regulation gloves, and the Marquess de Queensbury rules).

A grabing hand is faster then a jabing hand (which one you use to avoid objects thrown to your face?), as jabs recquire shoulder motion for cocking action.
You don't "cock" a jab. You throw it out in a straight line at the target and bring it back quickly. Action is faster than reaction. If you and I fought, and I threw the jab, I would know when I'm going to do it. You wouldn't. You would have to wait until I did it to react.

Also, how are you so sure that moving to the side and grabbing the face would be easy? Boxers train to move to the side when jabbed at (ever heard of slipping?) and still get hit by jabs. The difference between an average aikidoka and a boxer is that boxers train all the time to defend against jabs and have a better chance of noticing them. If you've never sparred against a boxer or someone else who uses jabs, you probably won't even recognize it.

Basing your entire defense against a jab around knowing they are going to jab isn't going to work. On the street, you won't know if they are a boxer. Even if you do know they are a boxer, you won't know if they are going to jab or not.

But, without sounding arrogant, what does a jab to any other target that is not the face is useful for?
A jab causes a reaction. If I throw a jab to the face, you will try to defend your face. If I follow a jab with a hook to the body, you will probaby be focused on defending your face and leave your body open. If I throw a jab to the body, you will drop your hands. What happens when I follow that with a cross or overhand right to the face? I have a better chance of hitting you because your hands are down.

And, althought boxers are very good in dealing with punches and clinchs, they are not very good in dealing with low kicks and parryings.
Parries leave your face open. When I spar with people, I hope they try to trap and parry. If they keep their hands by their face and move around, then I'm in trouble.

When the gloves are taken it becomes a lot more easier to dodge their punches..but it takes practice.
Not necessarily. When boxing, I can see the movements of their hands because the boxing gloves are big and red. They are pretty hard to miss. I still get hit a lot, but I see them coming. When I do MMA-style sparring (striking, grappling, etc allowed) wearing MMA gloves (small gloves that leave your fingers open so you can grapple but have a little padding over your knuckles and back of your hand), it's harder to see the punches. The gloves aren't big and red. They are small and you don't see much of the glove (you see the front of their fist which doesn't have padding on it). It makes it harder to defend agaisnt punches when they take the boxing gloves off (aside from the reasons I already listed, you can often use the boxing gloves for defense so when sparring and fighting without them it's harder).

CNYMike
10-30-2004, 12:33 PM
..... If you try to follow a jab back, you are going to walk into a cross or hook ....


Oh, absolutely, absolutely! That's why I said in my other post to "Be mindful of the rear hand;" one reason for a jab to go BACK is a because a cross or a hook or something is coming OUT. I didn't get into specifics because I was explaining a principle; respondents could play with this and figure out specifics for themselves. And you also have to worry about a jab/lead hook combination.

As I noted, one of the place I got this from was Sifu Francis Fong take on Wing Chun. Sifu Francis also holds instructorships in Kali, Jun Fan/JKD, and Thai Boxing. The "follow back" strategy is one way to resolve the dilemma caused by the fact that a jab's speed will make many Wing Chun traps difficult if not impossible to apply. So what they like to do --- and I only got this explanation once five or six years ago, so I apologize for being weak on details -- is crash into the other person as they follow the jab back; you can check or snuff the other hand on the way in. (If that hand's in a low chmber, go for the shoulder.) This, IIRC, will put you into grappling range; guess where Aikido lives? :D Nope, Aikidoka don't grapple, but we still work that side of the street!

My solution would be to learn to box. Boxing footwork and movements (slipping punches, bobbing and weaving, ducking, etc.) are all useful to know.

Yes, quite so, quite so. Holding rounds with focus mits is also fun in it's own way.

Yokaze
10-31-2004, 04:31 PM
O'sensei said that speed is a necessary part of Aikido. Also he said that, without the intent of the uke, no technique is necessary.

Most short jabs made in boxing are feints in preparation for a stronger attack. Even so, usually simply backing away is the best answer, assuming you have room to do so.

You'll have to be patient and wait until a punch with real intent come forth. You'll also have to learn how to recognize such a punch and tell it apart from a feint.

csinca
11-02-2004, 12:16 PM
Interesting that many of the responses to the question have drawn upon what other arts have developed.

I've seen a few comments about how boxer's aren't used to dealing with kicks (which I agree with) and just take their legs out. How many of you folks train in aikido dojos were much time is spend developing your kicking skills to the point where you can let loose with a string, balanced kick to a moving targt that's trying to hit you? I can't say that I've been to any dojos or seminars where this subject was covered. We did some of this training for a while but then the class moved on to other concepts and the atemi training has gone by the wayside.

Chris

Ron Tisdale
11-02-2004, 12:56 PM
You'll have to be patient and wait until a punch with real intent come forth. You'll also have to learn how to recognize such a punch and tell it apart from a feint.

Or learn how to draw out the attack...

Every time I back away from a boxer, I get pounded...

RT :mad:

photokami
11-02-2004, 06:06 PM
attacker uses a left jab
parry the jab
step in deep with left leg to the attackers left side
secure attackers shoulder with left hand
left heel hooking kick to small of back
kosoto gari

Huker
11-02-2004, 10:53 PM
You could wait until he punches and possibly get hit, or make your move before he starts his punch. A boxing stance usually involves the hands relatively close to the face. Lets say his hands are open or closed around his chin/jaw level. One of his hands (lets say right) is closer to his face than the other, which is out a bit further.

Now--
1-with your lead hand, push his lead hand to the outside
2-he should start a punch with his other hand at this point
3-with your rear hand, push his punch aside to the outside (from the inside)
4-using the same hand as in 3, come in to his neck with a chop using the outside ridge of your hand

That strike to the side neck should take him down. Killing him using that strike (unless you mean to) would just be bad luck. It'll make your attacker see stars tho. :uch:

Of course, I've got no boxing experience, but I've seen people take the above stance.

You guys are right, it is easier in theory than applied, but that's the idea. You can't read this stuff and expect to walk out an expert.

CNYMike
11-02-2004, 11:53 PM
Interesting that many of the responses to the question have drawn upon what other arts have developed.

Yes, but hopefully instructive.

Of course, I reread the original post, and the question IIRC was someone doing both boxing and Aikido who wondered what in Aikido could be used against something like a jab. The proper answer is "not much," especially if he'd be sparring in a boxing ring in accordance with boxing rules. (Helps to really read the original post, doesn't it?) That doesn't mean that an Aikidoka can't adapt his game to deal with a jab. And that certainly doesn't mean the original poster won't benefit from doing both boxing and aikido, although the benefits will probably be a lot harder for him to quantify and might not be what he expects. But for the situation he seemed to be describing, probably can't help much. And even if he did try something on someone who was also an MMA player, he'd be toast, because they train to combine kickboxing and grappling and he'd be improvising.



I've seen a few comments about how boxer's aren't used to dealing with kicks (which I agree with) and just take their legs out. How many of you folks train in aikido dojos were much time is spend developing your kicking skills to the point where you can let loose with a string, balanced kick to a moving targt that's trying to hit you? I can't say that I've been to any dojos or seminars where this subject was covered. We did some of this training for a while but then the class moved on to other concepts and the atemi training has gone by the wayside.

Chris

I agree. The strategy is even riskier considering that boxers don't sit in one place -- they also use evasive footwork and move around. Just tonight, my Kali instructor described boxing as being all about angles, and said they are very good at hitting you even when you think you can't get hit. So clearly, an aikidoka who knows nothing about boxing facing a boxer has his or her work cut out for them. A Thai Boxer could pulll it off, but they train to do something like that.

If all else fails, an aikidoka in that situation -- or facing any other attack they haven't formally trained against -- will have the best chances of not getting his or her block knocked off by following these three steps:

1. DON'T PANIC! Or at least stay as relaxed as possible with your flight-or-fligh reflex in overdirve.

2. Get off the line/evade AND bring both hands into play. One thing I've appreciated about Aikido since resuming it is the emphasis on having both hands active even if only one hand as been grabbed; the tenkan and irimi drills we've done are good examples. Now, whether fully extending your arms like that would be suicidal against my Kali instructor is another question (if so, the last thing you'd hear before splatting into the floor would be "thank you,") but in general, I think it's having both hands on the move and "live," especially when on what Filipinos call the Female Triangle (which Aikido people use all the time without knowing it) is not necessarily a bad place to be!

3. If you've made it through 1 and 2 without being clobbered, then find something, ANYTHING. Don't plan ahead, just take what is offered you and use it.

It's just my opion, but I think that when one reads anecdotes about an Aikido instructor "winning" a challenge from a kickboxer or Judoka or whatever, the above things are what saved that person's gravy -- keeping a relatively cool head, evading and getting both hands involved. The joint lock or throw would be gravy; the first few seconds of the encounter, IMHO, are the critical ones.

Just my 2p. FWIW.

Chris Birke
11-03-2004, 01:03 AM
"That strike to the side neck should take him down. Killing him using that strike (unless you mean to) would just be bad luck. It'll make your attacker see stars tho. "

Do other people think this is the case? Is this is to the side of the neck, or somehow to the trachea? I would think a ridge hand like that to the side of the kneck (especially a left handed one) wouldn't even bother an attacker, much less stun them.

George S. Ledyard
11-03-2004, 11:56 AM
"That strike to the side neck should take him down. Killing him using that strike (unless you mean to) would just be bad luck. It'll make your attacker see stars tho. "

Do other people think this is the case? Is this is to the side of the neck, or somehow to the trachea? I would think a ridge hand like that to the side of the kneck (especially a left handed one) wouldn't even bother an attacker, much less stun them.
Chris,
You should put some study into this. There is a spot on the side of the neck, right where the carotid atery is that you would compress for a sleeper hold. Not only is the artery there but also a nerve bundle which, if struck, will render someone quite unconcsious. There is a Defensive tactics group in Florida that teaches their officers to strike this spot with their forearms in order to minimize penetration and thereby injury. A knife hand will do the job but has a much higher possibility of injuring the neck.

I saw a film of some officers training when they were attacked by a pimp on drugs and one of the officers executed a picture prefect strike to the side of the neck and you've never seen anyone more out cold in an instant.

Bronson
11-03-2004, 01:24 PM
I saw a film of some officers training when they were attacked by a pimp on drugs and one of the officers executed a picture prefect strike to the side of the neck and you've never seen anyone more out cold in an instant.

I saw that too, it sure seemed to work quite well. A friend of mine went to Federal Law Enforcement Training and one of the films they watched had a prison guard do this to an inmate during a riot (the guard used a back hand slap). My friend said the inmate was instantly out. I've been tagged lightly there myself and gotten that woozy, tunnel vision thing so there does seem to be some evidence that it may work :D

Bronson

Ron Tisdale
11-03-2004, 02:12 PM
It is one of the atemi used in the mainline kata of Daito ryu. So there is also a firm connection to aikido.

RT

Pankration90
11-03-2004, 06:25 PM
A couple of the recent responses involved a lot of steps to dealing with the threat. On paper, those things work. In practice, there is a very small chance you will be able to do everything in a certain order, especially if you never practice it with full resistance.

My advice remains the same: learn to box. Getting a lot of experience in boxing will not only teach you how a boxer would deal with it, but you will have enough realistic experience with boxing to find ways to apply your other training (ie aikido) to defending against it. Simply thinking of counters to stuff isn't going to work.

csinca
11-03-2004, 06:36 PM
Michael,

Good post, sounds like you and I are on the same page. I've also been supplementing my training and getting a different perspective.

Chris

CNYMike
11-04-2004, 12:25 AM
..... My advice remains the same: learn to box. Getting a lot of experience in boxing will not only teach you how a boxer would deal with it, but you will have enough realistic experience with boxing to find ways to apply your other training (ie aikido) to defending against it. Simply thinking of counters to stuff isn't going to work.

That is good advice, but what's "plan B" for the Aikidoka who, for whatever reason, doesn't avail himself or herself of that opportunity?

CNYMike
11-04-2004, 12:27 AM
Michael,

Good post, sounds like you and I are on the same page. I've also been supplementing my training and getting a different perspective.

Chris

Thanks.

George S. Ledyard
11-04-2004, 02:03 AM
It is one of the atemi used in the mainline kata of Daito ryu. So there is also a firm connection to aikido.

RT
Hi Ron,
In what context do they do this one in Daito Ryu? Also, what is the striking surface when they do it?

Ron Tisdale
11-04-2004, 08:56 AM
If you check out Kondo Sensei's book and video, one of the techniques in ikkajo uses it. I believe it might be in response to a side strike, you enter and atemi with the blade of the hand to the spot we are talking about (for me that's about a 3 inch surface space between the base of the little finger and the bottom of the hand), cutting out on uke's stiking hand, then with your striking hand control the shoulder and 'change the feet'. Very nice sweep :) Especially if uke is already woozy from the strike. You can also use a strike to the solar plexus for frequent safe practice. I may be confusing two different kata here...its been a while since I trained Daito ryu, and unfortunately, aikido has me mixing and matching a bit much for classical kata training (well, as far as that style of training goes...mixing and matching with correct principles has its advantages too).

Also, you should understand that this is information already publicly available...open seminars and books are only one level of training, and often the best information is reserved for insiders...

Ron

Chris Birke
11-05-2004, 03:19 PM
*hits himself on the side of the neck experimentally*

Edit: do not do a google image search for "carotid nerve" while eating lunch.

csinca
11-07-2004, 10:23 AM
Okay, I'll admit that I've tried hitting myself in the side of the neck a couple of times also, but certainly not very hard. I've also been the recipient of a "shock and lock" in class and I can see where striking a nerve cluster combined with the carotid would take out the guy as I've had the room darken instantly on me.

I'm also a big believer in atemi and I'm cross training to further develop my atemi. The guys working with me are teaching me to tuck my chin into the shoulder on the side of the punch particularly on a jab.

What I'm having a hard time with is this:

If I have managed to avoid getting my bell rung by this "boxer" type bad guy and, I've managed to close the distance and entered in past his punching range; it seems like trying to hit a very small target on the neck of a moving opponent is still a very low percentage shot.

Chris

Ron Tisdale
11-08-2004, 08:13 AM
Against a boxer's style of attack it may well be...There are also kata that combine elements of the strike descibed with a "closed" iriminage type of throw where you use the large joint of the thumb instead of the hand blade, grab your own fingers, throw to the ground at your feet while maintaining the hold and control the opponant on the ground. Even if you miss the precise spot, as long as you off-balance the attacker with your movement, you are in an excellent position.

Personally, I rarely talk about pressure points, etc, because each person is a little different...you can never *count* on hitting specific targets on someone who is moving and hitting back. But if you do everything else correctly, the targets can often present themselves...combined with proper unbalancing, strikes like the one described do have their place. In the first technique I described, the entry and off-balancing is paramount...then its up to you to place the strike as accurately as possible. George's method of using as large a striking surface as possible is a good one...

Ron

csinca
11-08-2004, 12:01 PM
Ron,

I'm right there with you on this one! Once I'm in that close I'm all for taking balance and breaking their posture.

Chris

L. Camejo
11-08-2004, 05:19 PM
Hey Ron,

Your closed iriminage idea reminds me of a similar technique that I do after entering against jabs and closing to right next to the striker. After breaking balance and moving in for aigamae ate (iriminage to other folks), instead of grabbing my fingers though, I switch to a position where I'm behind the striker, wrapping my arm around his neck and stepping quickly back and dropping my hips towards the floor to have him in a rear naked strangle hold.

Your post just reminded me of that, same entry I think.

Just some thoughts.
LC:ai::ki:

Ron Tisdale
11-09-2004, 08:37 AM
Sounds like the entries are very similar. There is another technique where once you are on the ground in the rear naked (that sounds so funky) you lock your ankles in against uke's thighs and recline backwards....can be quite excruciating, and takes uke's mind off of fighting the choke...

Ron

L. Camejo
11-09-2004, 12:12 PM
Sounds like the entries are very similar. There is another technique where once you are on the ground in the rear naked (that sounds so funky) you lock your ankles in against uke's thighs and recline backwards....can be quite excruciating, and takes uke's mind off of fighting the choke...

Ron

Ouch! :hypno:

Got that one in Judo once. Also tried it in BJJ training. Very nice lock. Also works well if you can trap their hands next to their body with your legs when you lock them in so their hands are pinned to their sides and they're just helpless, even if they do roll around.

LC:ai::ki:

Miguelspride67
11-09-2004, 02:26 PM
boxing type punches. I dont know, what about Drunking Boxing kung-fu style. You guys think it would be any chance against an aikido Student.

Bronson
11-09-2004, 02:38 PM
... what about Drunking Boxing kung-fu style. You guys think it would be any chance against an aikido Student.

Nope. The aikido student would counter with Drunken Aikido (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6869) and emerge victorious. He may still go to jail for 40 years but he'd be victorious none the less :rolleyes:

Bronson

Ron Tisdale
11-09-2004, 03:31 PM
The really funny thing, Bronson, is that I don't even have to click on the link to know what its linking too!

Ron :)

Pankration90
11-12-2004, 06:55 PM
That is good advice, but what's "plan B" for the Aikidoka who, for whatever reason, doesn't avail himself or herself of that opportunity?
I don't know enough about aikido to answer that. Hopefully something that doesn't rely on a list of specific movements in order, as "counters" like that rarely work. Sparring with a boxer will allow you to learn to 'flow' with the opponent, and constantly improvise and change tactics.

I know that sounds weird, but I can't think of any other way to describe it. A complicated "counter" isn't very reliable, while a useful set of tools (whether they are footwork, high percentage strikes, blocks, etc) and experience fighting against boxers will help a lot.

CNYMike
11-12-2004, 11:13 PM
I don't know enough about aikido to answer that. Hopefully something that doesn't rely on a list of specific movements in order, as "counters" like that rarely work ....

That's why I didn't get into specific counters but instead outlined some principles. I agree that cross-training in Western Boxing would be the best option; short of that, here are some Things to Remember. All of which is kind of irellevant because it sounds like the original poster was doing just that -- boxing AND Aikido. But there you are.