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Woitkiewicz
07-27-2004, 09:06 AM
I am new to Aikido and just purchased a hakama. I found that it is about the length I wanted but it is not quite a long as some of other folks in the class. I was figuring since I was new I'd get caught up in it less. Is there a customary length that it should be? (btw: I do realize it is designed to hide foot movement). Thanks!

Yann Golanski
07-27-2004, 09:28 AM
As far as I know the "to hide foot movement" is a myth.

Long Hakama means that it will get dirty, pick muck from the street and carry it into your home. Not something I am sure most Japanese would consider good. Hell, I would not consider it nice to carry muck into my own house!

The long hakama started as a court grab within the Tokugawa Shogunate. The idea that long sleeves on your trousers would trip you up if you were to attack anyone. I believe lord Asano (of 47 ronin fame) suffered just that fate.

akiy
07-27-2004, 10:23 AM
As far as I know the "to hide foot movement" is a myth.
Yup -- old martial urban legend. If I were being attacked by someone whose intention was to kill me, I wouldn't care much about whether they "stole" my footwork. Better to hike up the hakama and be able to move...

As far as the length of the hakama goes, it really varies. Some places will have it just touching the floor, whereas others will have it about ankle bone height. Other places will even have it higher. And so on. Having one that's touching the ground will, of course, make the hem fray a lot faster than one that's off the ground.

As an aside, these days, I often hike up my hakama by pulling up the corner of the hip "vent" and tucking it under my hakama himo.

-- Jun

ian
07-27-2004, 11:32 AM
Originally the hakama was just below the knee - it comes from horse-riding trousers. Fashion changed and it touched the floor. For aikido I find ankle length the best (still looks good but you don't trip as much). Apparently they make them differently now anyway; there is a section missing which used to make them 'swirl' out more; not sure about this last factoid. Can anybody confirm this?

Ian

j0nharris
07-27-2004, 01:30 PM
I'm not sure about the length of the hakama itself, but I've heard a number of times that it is considered rude to be able to see the gi pants under the hakama! So the hakama should be the length of the pants or longer.

(Kind of like wearing white socks with a black tuxedo?)

-jon

Woitkiewicz
07-27-2004, 03:10 PM
I will stop wearing white socks with my tuxedo too.

Chuck.Gordon
07-28-2004, 01:39 AM
Jon Harris said:

>... it is considered rude to be able to see the gi pants under the hakama! So the hakama
>should be the length of the pants or longer.

Pants? You wear pants under your hak???

Just kidding, sort of. Most times, I only wear zubon under my hakama if the weather's real cold. I also replace the judogi top with a 'kendo' style keikogi. No side slits.

Cooler in summer, never worry about showing pants'leg ...

Chuck

Kent Enfield
07-28-2004, 11:46 AM
but I've heard a number of times that it is considered rude to be able to see the gi pants under the hakama! So the hakama should be the length of the pants or longer.I'm with Chuck here--that's what you get for wearing two pairs of pants at once. Either don't wear judogi pants under your hakama or hem them way up.

p00kiethebear
07-29-2004, 04:20 PM
I remember a seminar with Lorain Dianne sensei. Her hakama was almost a foot longer than her legs. She was walking all over it but didn't seem to have any problems.

ruthmc
08-01-2004, 12:59 AM
NB Post not to be taken seriously :)

Cool - so we can be fashion victims and choose from:

Floor-length hak - sophisticated, covers one's modesty, needs washing often.

Ankle-length hak - standard, what everyone's wearing, good choice for most situations.

Knee-length hak - great for more active pursuits, horseriding etc.

Mini-hak - shows off those designer gi pants to a tee, or legs if you've got 'em!

Hot-hak - dare to bare - only recommended for the younger adults or those toned enough to get away with it, can also be used for Sumo.

Ruth (Aiki fashion correspondant)

Chuck.Gordon
08-01-2004, 02:33 AM
So Ruth,

Nex time we get together, you wear your black leather mini-hak and I'll wear my kilt, deal?

;)

Chuck

oudbruin
08-01-2004, 10:38 AM
First time I washed my gi pants - they shrank to clam digger length...thanks to the goddess I didn't cut the legs when I hemmed them.
--
As for the hak-our iaido crew generally have ankle length, altho sensai wears his hak floor length- i'd think the hem would frey too quickly.
--
Since we have a hot steamy new jersey summer not as bad as georga or fla , I'd admit, but still anything over80% humidity and 85 degrees is too hot for a hak and a pair of gi pants,- my uwagi is long enough to cover my short comings-; -)

ruthmc
08-01-2004, 11:00 AM
So Ruth,

Nex time we get together, you wear your black leather mini-hak and I'll wear my kilt, deal?

;)

Chuck

Nah - I'll wear my hot-hak if you wear your bunny ears ;)

We really must sort out a mini-seminar sometime soon - I wannna see how you deal with my chains :)

Ruth

Chuck.Gordon
08-02-2004, 03:18 AM
Nah - I'll wear my hot-hak if you wear your bunny ears ;)

We really must sort out a mini-seminar sometime soon - I wannna see how you deal with my chains :)

Ruth

Oh now you're just flirting!

Yeah, a mini-sem would be great. I had a couple of potentials to get to the UK to play this year, but both appear to have been eaten by the great Murhpy god of reality vs planning.

However ... our house is roomy, we've got a dojo in the basement, and access to a fine gym complex ...

If I can sort out the time, I'm still yearning to hold a Wood and Steel /slash/ mini Aikido-list sem sometime soon.

Most of my current hakama come from Meijin (via www.budogu.com), and when I send Peter my requirements, I get what I order.

Recently, I ordered a test hak (off-brand, new shop, cheap prices, just seeing what they had) with the same measurements and got one that swipes the floor. I've got to get it hemmed. Not a bad hak, very lightweight, though.

I remember the stories about hiding feet and such, and remember my teacher laughing them off. His hak was generally of the high-water variety, showing a fair amount of ankle.

In an aikido/jujutsu dojo environment, I hate to see anyone with a hakama dragging the floor. It's just dangerous, not just for the wearer, but more important, for the partners.

Chuck

O-Ren
08-10-2004, 04:55 AM
Hay I have a question, and just so you understand why I am asking I havent even started my training yet, just doing some research. My question is that is there a differance in an Aikido and a kendo Hakama. Any help would be much apperciated. Thanks for reading this.

O-Ren

Chuck.Gordon
08-10-2004, 08:34 AM
... is there a differance in an Aikido and a kendo Hakama.

No significant difference, no. Bujin Design offers an 'aikido-specific' hakama with no koshiita (back plate), but that's an adaption rather than a norm.

Chuck

Paul Kerr
08-18-2004, 05:15 AM
2 differences I know of (as I do both kendo and aikido): Kendo hakama has a small tag at the koshita to tuck into the himo ( I forget its name ). That would be uncomfortable for ukemi. Also, himo are a different length as a kendo hakama ties the long himo at the back.

Bronson
08-18-2004, 11:23 AM
Kendo hakama has a small tag at the koshita to tuck into the himo ( I forget its name ). That would be uncomfortable for ukemi.

I've never found the little tab to be uncomfortable at all. In fact I can't even tell it's there. What I have found is that it rips off, sometimes with disastrous results. A guy at summer camp had his rip off and it left a gaping hole at the bottom of the koshiita.

Bronson

Chuck.Gordon
08-18-2004, 12:45 PM
Paul talked about the tab ...

My hakama have almost always had the peanut butter spoon and I've never had trouble with it.

Some hakama (generic) have NOT had 'em, and I've missed being able to tuck it in to help keep the koshi ita in place ...

Chuck

Paul Kerr
08-19-2004, 05:18 AM
I made a wrong assumption it seems. I've only ever seen aikido hakama without the tab (name, someone please!!). All the hakama I've bought for aikido (Iwata or Bujin) have been tab free. Even cheapo starter hakama for kendo have it in them. :freaky:

Troy
08-19-2004, 08:24 AM
Is there a customary length that it should be? (btw: I do realize it is designed to hide foot movement).

As far as I can find out, the traditional length of a Hakama should touch the tops of your feet. The hakama is sapposed to hide knee movement, not feet. If it hid a samurai's feet, and he was in a fight, he would trip on his own hakama, and that would be bad.

Chuck.Gordon
08-20-2004, 02:09 AM
As far as I can find out, the traditional length of a Hakama should touch the tops of your feet. The hakama is sapposed to hide knee movement, not feet. If it hid a samurai's feet, and he was in a fight, he would trip on his own hakama, and that would be bad.

Hakama aren't supposed to 'hide' anything (except maybe the fundoshi). Lengths vay widely, depending on style and function intended of the garment.

In practice, the legs were often pulled up and tucked into the tapes or belt to free the legs.

And, really, not all samurai (such a generic term) wore hakama all the time.

Some courtly hakama were meters long and were folded and tucked in such a way that the wearer couldn't rise without assiatance (a security precaution on the part of the person holding court, I suppose).

"Field" hakama (sobakama?) had straight legs ad looked more like modern pants.

Some hakama were, indeed, skirts, rather than culottes, too ...

Daily wear hakama, however, which is pretty much the model for the ones we wear in budo, ranged from ankle-length to knee-length. I've seen pics of shorter ones.

The more or less standardized budo hakama is usually ankle-length, though.

Chuck

Victor Ioncu
03-01-2005, 08:11 AM
I made a wrong assumption it seems. I've only ever seen aikido hakama without the tab (name, someone please!!). All the hakama I've bought for aikido (Iwata or Bujin) have been tab free. Even cheapo starter hakama for kendo have it in them. :freaky:

The tab's name is hera and can't be unconfortable since the ukemi is made diagonally, avoiding the place where the hera tucks into the obi to touch the ground.

malsmith
03-01-2005, 09:26 AM
i never hakama could be so complicated.....
it makes me kinda nervous about getting one. (im a newbie)

Eric Webber
03-01-2005, 02:25 PM
No worries, Mal, you get used it after some time. :)

malsmith
03-01-2005, 02:33 PM
yeah thats what i hear. :)

BTW whats up with some guys not wearing gi pants under their hakama.... i understand it might be hot or uncomfortable but ive been flashed a few times during training and... uuuuhhhh... its not very pleasant. :yuck: :hypno: :crazy:

Eric Webber
03-01-2005, 03:47 PM
I'm not so accustomed to no gi pants, but I know some folks who do not wear anything under their gi pants... taking the term "commando" a little too far in my opinion. :crazy: They say it is b/c the gi is considered the undergarment in this context, but all the same - need a little support, don't ya? :hypno:

Eric Webber
03-01-2005, 03:49 PM
By the way, Mal, I see you are just North of us. If you are in the Reading area, feel free to look us up, we love to have visitors. :) Look us up on the web for directions.

malsmith
03-01-2005, 04:01 PM
hey i will definatly look into it!!! :D

Charles
03-01-2005, 07:35 PM
I used to go commando under gi pants, but koshis and a fear of Testicular Torsion (http://www.emedicine.com/emerg/topic573.htm) put an end to it.

Nick P.
03-02-2005, 07:25 AM
I used to go commando under gi pants, but koshis and a fear of Testicular Torsion (http://www.emedicine.com/emerg/topic573.htm) put an end to it.

I shouldn't laugh, but funny how all that seems related: Cold dojo, sexy uke (M or F), tough technique.....

Causes:
Congenital anomaly; bell clapper deformity
Undescended testicle
Sexual arousal and/or activity
Trauma
Exercise
Active cremasteric reflex
Cold weather

Eric Webber
03-02-2005, 01:01 PM
We call it "The Clackers."

Fred Little
03-02-2005, 01:34 PM
yeah thats what i hear. :)

BTW whats up with some guys not wearing gi pants under their hakama.... i understand it might be hot or uncomfortable but ive been flashed a few times during training and... uuuuhhhh... its not very pleasant. :yuck: :hypno: :crazy:

Maybe nobody has every suggested to them that if they're going to go full commando then it would be a good idea to buy a white kendo top (which is a good bit longer) instead of a standard judo gi. No pants is common in koryu training, but the keiko-gi is typically enough longer to cover the vents in the hakama.

The other option I'm seeing more and more of is a pair of bicycle shorts in place of the pants, which deals with all the too hot, too brief, too uncomfortable and not enough support issues others have raised.

Hope this helps,

Fred Little

stuartjvnorton
03-02-2005, 07:19 PM
why not just roll up the gi pants underneath?

Jeanne Shepard
03-03-2005, 06:09 PM
Some people just whack 'em off at the knee.

Has anyone worn the silk blend hakamas? Are they light and cool? Do they flow with movement?

Jeanne(soon to be ordering my first hakama)Shepard

stuartjvnorton
03-03-2005, 07:08 PM
We call it "The Clackers."

We taught the concept of the to a Japanese guy training for a while at our dojo, and his version was "kintama tsubureta" (SP?), which supposedly translates to "Ball Press".
Quite amusing when said with a straight face and accompanying hand-clapping motion.

malsmith
03-03-2005, 08:24 PM
oh wow they make silk blend hakama???!! that sounds really awesome!!! anybody know how they are???

Bronson
03-04-2005, 01:33 AM
Some people just whack 'em off at the knee.

Those of us with hakama in our dojo keep our gi pants at about mid-shin. It's considered bad taste in our parts to have your pants showing below the hakama (analagous to having a slip showing below a skirt).

Has anyone worn the silk blend hakamas? Are they light and cool? Do they flow with movement?

I've never worn one but my experience with silk is that it's quite warm. Blended materials may be different though. For my money I like the Tetron hakama. Light and flowing (a little on the warm side but not too bad), tough as nails, and easily maintained.

Bronson

Huker
03-20-2005, 07:51 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought the purpose of hakama was to hide the position of your feet.

Lorien Lowe
03-20-2005, 08:46 PM
Usually I try not to comment to dojo colleagues about their dress, but recently I told a kohai to get new pants after being thrown and noticing that the crotch had been ripped out of his pants for some time.

-LK

Lorien Lowe
03-20-2005, 08:48 PM
Maybe that's why some dojos require hakama right off the bat?
-LK

Yann Golanski
03-21-2005, 04:42 AM
Tanner,

No, hakama are not designed to cover you feet. This is a martial art myth.

samurai_kenshin
04-08-2005, 10:15 AM
court, I suppose).

"Field" hakama (sobakama?) had straight legs ad looked more like modern pants.


Chuck
as a matter of fact those hakama could be replicated by tying back the lega and sort of stuffing them into boots (or so i've heard)

Melissa Fischer
04-09-2005, 01:07 AM
We're not allowed to wear boots at our dojo.
It seems like hakamas shorten the longer you wear them, all brands from what I hear. I'm on my first one and it has shortened a bit despite being a Tetron (rayon/cotton mix from http://aikido.tozando.com) which I love. It's easy to wash in the tub plus it floats around and makes a nice whoshing sound with speed shikkoing and breakfalls. It did trip me up a few times at first but that's part of the fun.

Melissa

http://aikido.tozando.com/