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AikiWeb System
07-18-2004, 07:59 AM
AikiWeb Poll for the week of July 18, 2004:

Which art do you think is more physically effective - judo or aikido?

I don't do aikido
Aikido, and I have trained in aikido and judo
Aikido, but I have only trained in aikido
Aikido, but I have only trained in judo
Judo, and I have trained in aikido and judo
Judo, but I have only trained in aikido
Judo, but I have only trained in judo
Neither - it's the practitioner that matters, and I have trained in aikido and judo
Neither - it's the practitioner that matters, and I have only trained in aikido
Neither - it's the practitioner that matters, and I have only trained in judo


Here are the current results (http://www.aikiweb.com/polls/results.html?poll_id=229).

Michael Neal
07-22-2004, 08:13 PM
How can you possibly say Aikido is more effective or neither if you have only trained in Aikido and vice versa?

Bronson
07-23-2004, 02:12 AM
I can say it. It would be a completely uninformed opinion but nothing stops me from saying it :D

Bronson

happysod
07-23-2004, 02:52 AM
I looked at this askance as well, but a survey is about opinion, not fact. What I would like is that any vote by someone who claims knowledge of both has a greater % weight than that by single proponents, aikido or judo.

Clayton Kale
07-23-2004, 06:06 AM
I'm withholding my vote for the moment. I'm unsure if this means effective as in exercise for the individual or effective as in "most effective way to make uke do a face plant." How do y'all interpret it?

Devin McDowell
07-23-2004, 06:13 AM
I think they mean the face plant one. Its what a lot of people have been talking about lately, so its logical that's what the survey would mean.

rcoit
07-23-2004, 06:51 AM
I agree the question is not sufficiently clear to allow accurate interpretation of the responses. I have done both, finding judo to be more like Greco-Roman wrestling- competitive, arduous, and not as focused on re-directing uke as aikido is. Aikido is more effective as a self-defense art and encounters far more different scenarios. So the responses are predictably going to be varied since the meaning of 'effectiveness' is not detailed.

Ron Tisdale
07-23-2004, 06:56 AM
And in the end, its all rubbish...train in what you like. Enjoy, and remember to breathe...

RT :)

SeiserL
07-23-2004, 08:13 AM
IMHO, its not the style thats effective, it the practitioner.

Bronson
07-23-2004, 08:33 AM
For me aikido is far more physically effective...because I don't know judo.

Someone once asked a friend of mine who is a shooting enthusiast what was the best pistol for self-defense, he replied "the one you have". A .22 caliber (small for those non-shooters) pistol in the hands of someone competent in its use is more effective than a .44 super mag in the hands of someone who couldn't hit a barn from the inside :D

Bronson

Michael Neal
07-23-2004, 09:23 AM
no offense but this is mass delusion

mj
07-23-2004, 09:32 AM
I'm not even Catholic.

Michael Neal
07-23-2004, 09:41 AM
Well Aikido is quasi religious right?

I posted this same poll question on judoinfo.com with a different result :)
http://judoforum.com/index.php?showtopic=1903

mj
07-23-2004, 06:06 PM
Really? That's quite shocking.

Imagine...different people having different opinions.

Michael Neal
07-23-2004, 09:56 PM
Yes, imagine that.

Paul Sanderson-Cimino
07-24-2004, 02:31 AM
Well, that about sums it up, guys. I thought we were studying a way for people to get along, but I don't see how that'll work so long as these differing opinions keep coming up.

PeterR
07-24-2004, 05:56 AM
Well, that about sums it up, guys. I thought we were studying a way for people to get along, but I don't see how that'll work so long as these differing opinions keep coming up.
Well in my OPINION its the differing opinions that keeps things interesting. And they don't preclude getting along.

Has visions of vacant eyed drones ruling the world.

SeiserL
07-24-2004, 11:00 AM
I thought we were studying a way for people to get along, but I don't see how that'll work so long as these differing opinions keep coming up.

Thank you, you illustrate the perfect point.

IMHO, people will never learn to get along if we expect each other to have the same opinions, customs, or ideas. The only hope we have is to learn to express, accept, learn from, and appreicate the differences.

Michael Neal
07-24-2004, 11:11 AM
It is amazing that almost every Aikidoka I have talked to brings up some kind of story about an Aikido master who defeated some unknown Judoka and then converted that guy to Aikido. The story is then repeated over and over again.

Usually we have no idea of the Judoka's experience level or the full details of the event itself, I mean a demonstration of a technique can hardly be claimed to be defeat of a Judoka. "Here, grab my wrist" does not equal randori, sparring, or fighting.

They start threads about how they went to a Judo dojo and tossed them around etc. etc. Then they start a poll to show that most Aikidoka think Aikido is more effective etc. etc.

It is then the Judoka who is a jerk for questioning this and offering the opposite
viewpoint. We are supposed to fall in line and say that both arts are the same, even while they constantly try to hint with their stories that Aikido is superior.

While most Aikido is practiced in manner that is much less rigorous than Judo and with alot of cooperation we are supposed to say that does not matter it is only the individual martial artist that matters.

Sorry, I disagree and I am sorry if that hurts people's feelings but I am just being honest. I never said Aikido sucks or is not good, that has never been my argument at all. My argument from the beginning has been that the training methods of Judo make it more practical.

I am not trying to attack anyoone personally here, as Lynn and Peter said above it is different viewpoints that make things interesting.

Chad Sloman
07-24-2004, 01:46 PM
My argument from the beginning has been that the training methods of Judo make it more practical.


add faster to that. Judo training methods make it more practical faster. I think adding randori from the get-go gives it a steeper learning curve. I wish we could do more randori sooner because I think it would help, but there is a trade-off. Judo had to sacrafice some techniques to make it safe for everyday training. Aikido did not. I believe the shodokan guys can only use certain techniques to make sure that it's safe. So in order to train that way, we have to sacrafice techniques. Or everybody can go back to the "hell dojo" days and then nobody would want to train aikido anymore because it would be more dangerous, with broken limbs, fatalities and all. Besides, different people train for different reasons. I think "hell dojo" would be pretty cool, but I'm sure plenty would not.

mj
07-24-2004, 01:57 PM
Ah but Judo is only practical to a certain degree.

Surely the only Martial Art to ban hitting the head?

Like Mike Tyson said...'everyone has a strategy - til you punch them in the mouth' :)

Michael Neal
07-24-2004, 02:01 PM
And Aikido trains hitting to the head? Not really.

Chuck Clark
07-24-2004, 03:35 PM
Mr. Neal, I agree with much of what you say. However, you paint with a very broad brush. You might get out a bit more and find out that not all aikido dojo train the way you've experienced so far.

Cheers!

Michael Neal
07-24-2004, 03:48 PM
I am sure you are right, I have been saying that my opinion applies to Aikido in general and how it is usually trained. Of course there are excepetions, there are some Judo dojos that practice very horribly as well.

What it boils down to I think is that it is easier to get lazy in Aikido practice than Judo practice. In Judo if you get lazy you get your ass kicked in AIkido nothing really will happen.

Ron Tisdale
07-27-2004, 09:52 AM
It is amazing that almost every Aikidoka I have talked to brings up some kind of story about an Aikido master who defeated some unknown Judoka and then converted that guy to Aikido. The story is then repeated over and over again.
I have brought up no such story, and several others on this forum haven't either. I have also not repeated any stories. I think you exagerate.

Usually we have no idea of the Judoka's experience level or the full details of the event itself, I mean a demonstration of a technique can hardly be claimed to be defeat of a Judoka. "Here, grab my wrist" does not equal randori, sparring, or fighting.

a) if you'd like some details, read the stories about Sokaku Takeda, Mochizuki Sensei, etc. on aikidojournal.com. **I** won't repeat them though... :)

b) I have seen no one say that a wrist grab = randori, sparring or fighting.

They start threads about how they went to a Judo dojo and tossed them around etc. etc. Then they start a poll to show that most Aikidoka think Aikido is more effective etc. etc.

Uh, the poll was started by the Aikiweb system (AKA Jun), so this was not the same person who started the judo thread. Peter started the judo thread, and his post was very complementary about judo, and not once did he talk about throwing judoka around because of his aikido. you can read his post here: http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5996

His last sentence I must say I really like the people I've met doing Judo. No need for posturing - its very clear who can do what to who. You may fight hard but before and afterward - very relaxed. Tells me that you've read him all wrong.

It is then the Judoka who is a jerk for questioning this and offering the opposite
viewpoint. We are supposed to fall in line and say that both arts are the same, even while they constantly try to hint with their stories that Aikido is superior.

Well, I see people giving their perspective, and you disagreeing with it. Your attitude (what some might call being a jerk) is separate from the information you provide, at least in my mind...

While most Aikido is practiced in manner that is much less rigorous than Judo and with alot of cooperation we are supposed to say that does not matter it is only the individual martial artist that matters.

Well isn't it the individual artist that matters? If you take someone that doesn't break a sweat in their training and put them up against a world class athelete, why would you expect the non-sweating person to win? Duh... If you take a shodokan stylist who trains 6 days a week, HARD, and put them up against someone who does judo cassually...who do you think will win... duh.... Its kind of stating the obvious.

Sorry, I disagree and I am sorry if that hurts people's feelings but I am just being honest. I never said Aikido sucks or is not good, that has never been my argument at all. My argument from the beginning has been that the training methods of Judo make it more practical.

No problem, no need to appologize for disagreeing. More practical for what? The nice thing about judo is that it has some pretty standard practices for training. Pretty much no matter where you go, the standard format will be the same (exceptions might be in the case of kosen judo or dojo that are similarly focused). The level of skill might change, the level of physical fitness might change, but the format is pretty much the same.

I can think of at least 10 different styles of practice that I have seen personally in aikido...some in the same federation! Aikido keiko is simply not as monolithic as judo practice. No harm there.

I am not trying to attack anyoone personally here, as Lynn and Peter said above it is different viewpoints that make things interesting.

Quite right...so hold your opinion, accept that some here will not convert to it, train hard, and live well.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
07-27-2004, 09:58 AM
I am sure you are right, I have been saying that my opinion applies to Aikido in general and how it is usually trained. Of course there are excepetions, there are some Judo dojos that practice very horribly as well.

What it boils down to I think is that it is easier to get lazy in Aikido practice than Judo practice. In Judo if you get lazy you get your ass kicked in AIkido nothing really will happen.

Again...depends on where you train. Some teachers will chase you straight out the door...What people are consistantly saying to you is...AIKIDO IS NOT A MONOLITH...

Ron (can you hear me now?) Tisdale

Red Beetle
06-03-2005, 11:43 PM
Several of my good friends are experts in Brazilian Jiu-jitsu. By expert I mean that they have trained hard for over 10 years and they are ranked under guys like Marc Laimon and Geraldo Boone. In the dojo, they can give you all you want on the ground. They are also bouncers at a local bar. One guy who worked with them, and had done hard core BJJ training for about 3 years (a solid blue belt) had to ask a rowdy guy to leave one night. The confrontation went bad, and the rowdy guy ended up kicking the shit out of the blue belt. Another guy, who worked with them, and had only been training for several months rushed over stepped in, and after dodging several punches got the guy down and choked him out.

Now, this really embarrassed the blue belt. Not only did he get the worst of the confrontation, but a guy who had only been training a short time in the same style (and who was smaller than him) had done what he thought he should have done. Some people wonder about such things, but I understand how events like this can happen.

Like the guy who posted the line from Mike Tyson: Everybody has a strategy until you punch them in the mouth.
Sometimes this is more true than you can know.
You can train for years, and when it is time to execute...you just freeze.
Things can happen so fast that one second some guy is asking you what you are looking at, and the next second (before you could even say--'huh') the same guy is punching you in the face for the third time.

I saw one guy, an awesome fighter, get sucker punched one night. He was so stunned that by the time he snapped out of his I-can't-believe -that-guy-just-popped-me-in-the-eye-trance that the punk had darted out the door and was gone. He was left with a black eye, and people wanted to know why he didn't use his deadly Brazilian Jiu-jitsu on the guy. In the movies, the good guy often wins, but in real life strange things that are hard to explain happen.

I got to tell you about this crap that happened to one of my friends. He was very well trained in grappling and boxing. He had been in countless fights and only backed down if a weapon was brandished and he had none. That being said I will continue.

This guy goes over to his girlfriends house who is having a cook out. Besides the girls family being there, there are these two other guys present when he gets to her house. They are clearly flirting with the girl, and this makes my friend jealous. They start having words, and an argument ensues. One of the guys takes a plate of hot dogs and throws it on my friend's head, covering him with chilly and mustard. When my friend turned to face the evil hot dog attacker, the other guy shoved him off of the patio (now that my friend was distracted), and my friend rolled all the way down this muddy hill while his girlfriend and her family watched. By the time my friend got back up the hill the two guys had got in their car and left. My friend comes over to my house covered in mud, chilly, and mustard and demands that I go with him to look for these two guys. After laughing my ass off at the story, I told him that no beating he could give those two would ever make up for the embarrassment he suffered. He said that his girlfriend's family was even laughing at him as he rolled down the hill. I advised him to never go back over there again, and find another girlfriend. He would not listen, so we went looking for these guys for a couple of days (we never found them thank God). When word got around about the infamous hot dog incident, my friend ended up having to beat up 3 or 4 other guys before people would stop making fun of him to his face. The point is that no matter how good you are, there is no way to completely control the innumerable factors that could occur during a confrontation. And, to this day, I have yet to see a dojo prepare their students for a possible surprise hot dog attack!

Red Beetle
www.kingsportjudo.com

Bronson
06-04-2005, 02:19 AM
my friend ended up having to beat up 3 or 4 other guys before people would stop making fun of him to his face.

He didn't "have" to beat them up. He wanted to beat them up.

Bronson

Red Beetle
06-04-2005, 03:17 PM
He didn't "have" to beat them up. He wanted to beat them up.

Bronson

Oh yes, he wanted to beat them up.
It was not necessary, but it did accomplish what he wanted: which was that people stop cracking on him to his face. People still come up to me and laugh about the story. It is funny. Ha ha ha.
Red Beetle

Chef CJ
06-04-2005, 11:02 PM
I have only trained in Aikido and have not been in a position to observe much Judo, so I did not vote on this one. What I would like to share is some good words which I think are relevant. I was once talking about some styles which I had been exposed to in the past with a student very much my senior in Aikido. He listened and then said "Any style of budo is effective if properly performed, I concern myself only with the study of Aikido because I can always improve my technique and there are still plenty of things I can learn."

In my path to coming to Aikido, I spent time examining as many styles as I had access to before settling on the one I have. After beginning study as an Aikidoka, I wondered questions of effectiveness once and a while also. The above statement helped me to wonder no more. If a man who has studied Aikido for nearly 40 years still has things to learn , then I do not think that I need to look around but concentrate more on my own technique.

Also another statement comes to mind which I can only paraphrase as I do not have it here in front of me, but it came from a question and answer session with a Shihan. The question was baically asked if Aikido was effective against the karate kick? The answer was, if you train for a karate kick , you train for the wrong reason. Aikido is an effective defense when done correctly but the building of character and control over mind and body are the real goal for me at least.

I understand that many Aikidoka may not feel the same as I do. I am in this training for me. To learn the technique and to challenge myself to make it as good as I can, not to use it in a practical situation. I hope to never have to and that is Aikido to me as well. Acheiving peace thru whatever path is neccessary be it calming actions , words or good technique that is so clean that we come to an agreement quickly.

Thank you for your time.

CJ

Sanshouaikikai
06-04-2005, 11:22 PM
Like the guy who posted the line from Mike Tyson: Everybody has a strategy until you punch them in the mouth.
Sometimes this is more true than you can know.
You can train for years, and when it is time to execute...you just freeze.

I TOTALLY agree with you on that one! I do think however that it is essential to always get first blood...to just know what you're opponent is going to do and intercept his attack before he even does it...or at least while it's in mid air, you know? (That is of course if you're the type of person who gets into "fights") However, the bottom line is...it's not how much you know and how long you've practiced it...but how much you have actually "absorbed" and are able to apply both effectively and efficiently! So like in this story...the blue belt only know "head" knowledge of what to do, his BJJ was around his waist not in his heart and mind where as the beginner...well...his BJJ was in the right place at the right time.

SeiserL
06-05-2005, 09:00 AM
as always, IMHO, styles are not "physically more effective", people are.